August 13, 2024 • 30 mins
In this episode of Quakers Today, we ask, “What does Quakerism have to offer society?”
Co-hosts Peterson Toscano (he/him) and Miche McCall (they/them) explore the concept of prefigurative practice within a Quaker classroom and beyond. What happens when students don't just learn about the future but begin to live it? They also feature queer Jewish poet Jessica Jacobs, who in her new book of poetry, interacts with the ancient book of Genesis.
Sam Thacker and Zoe Levenstein
Sam Thacker is a history teacher at Germantown Friends School. Every January, GFS offers “mini-courses” that provide teachers and students a space for experimentation, investigation, and reflection. In his Friends Journal article “Let Your School Speak: The Power of Prefigurative Practice in Friends Education,” Sam wrote about his course, “Another World is Possible.” Through it, he invites students to engage deeply with hopeful and ambitious visions for social change. Sam and one of his students, Zoe Levenstein, explore how they brought prefigurative practice to life in their classroom.
Sam explains that prefigurative practice is about more than just learning about change; it's about living it. We don't have to wait to build the institutions that will bring about the change we seek. Instead, we can start creating those institutions and practices now, making sure they align with the inclusive, just, and loving world we envision for the future.
Sam says, “If, for example, we are working toward a just, inclusive future, our institutions now should be just and inclusive. Prefigurative practice is proactive, courageous, and true to itself. In Quaker parlance, its life speaks.”
Sam reasons that prefigurative practice is nothing new for Quakers, “I see Quaker institutions as examples of prefigurative practice. By and large, I mean in my article, I discuss meetings for business. Quaker meetings are prefigurative, both in their organization and in the form of worship: Prefigurative practice is vital.
Zoe shares her experiences of engaging with this radical educational approach. Through readings from influential thinkers like George Lakey, Joanna Macy, and Adrienne Maree Brown, the students were encouraged to reimagine the world and consider how they could contribute to creating it.
I imagine a world where everyone is engaged because I think what really dampers my hope a lot is that it seems like people don't care in 20 years, my hope would be that even on the street level, I see people actively working to help each other. I also kind of imagine a world where song and music is more incorporated and like groups singing because I think it just kind of boosts the mood. I imagine a world in which doing activities like that is more encouraged. Yeah, I think it all comes down to human connection, and that makes people care.
Sam Thacker (he/him) teaches high school history at Germantown Friends School in Philadelphia, where he works with students on sustainability and climate action. He lives with his wife, Pam, and two young children; they are pursuing membership at Germantown
Meeting in Philadelphia, Pa. He is a songwriter, musician, artist, and lover of nature. In this episode, you heard Sam singing Purple Dreams. Hear more of his music on his BandCamp page: 2xtruck.bandcamp.com
Zoe Levenstein is a rising junior at Germantown Friends School, a member of the Quaker Unity & Inclusivity Team (QUILT) at GFS, and helped to plan the 2024 Quaker Youth Leadership Conference in partnership with Penn Charter. Next year, Zoe will be the Environmental Action Club's student leader and participate in the community-wide Campus Climate Coalition. Zoe’s passion is music—listening, sin
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Episode Transcript
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Miche McCall (00:02):
In this episode of Quakers today, we ask, what does
Quakerism have to offer societyin 2024?
Peterson Toscano (00:08):
Jessica Jacobs, a queer Jewish poet,
tells us about her newcollection of poems unalone:
Poems in Conversation With theBook of Genesis. She will read
one of her poems for us.
Miche McCall (00:21):
We also explore prefigurative practice in a
Quaker classroom. What isprefigurative practice? It's a
little like time travel. We willhear from Zoe Levenstein, a high
school student from GermantownFriends School, and her history
teacher Sam Thacker.
Peterson Toscano (00:37):
Zoe and Sam will not only tell us about how
they imagined the future, butalso reveal how they lived in
it. I am Peterson Toscano,
Miche McCall (00:45):
and I'm Miche McCall.
Peterson Toscano (00:47):
This is season three, episode five of the
Quakers Today podcast, a projectof Friends Publishing
Corporation.
Miche McCall (00:54):
This season of Quakers today is sponsored by
the American Friends ServiceCommittee.
Peterson Toscano (01:04):
What is your relationship with time travel?
Miche McCall (01:08):
Some people might be reluctant to travel to the
past because of their identitiesand bodies. Creative writers who
have historically experiencedoppression often have opted
instead to travel to the futurethrough science fiction.
Peterson Toscano (01:21):
A high school history class at Germantown
Friends School did something alittle different. As they
studied the past, they chose tocreate the classroom of the
future. Their teacher, SamThacker, refers to this as
prefigurative practice.
Sam Thacker (01:42):
Drawn from anarchist thought, prefigurative
practice is a way of doingthings based on two notions. The
first is that we don't have towait to build institutions that
will help realize the change wewish to see in the world. The
other is that the institutionsand practices we develop along
the way ought to embody ourultimate vision. Put another
way, prefigurative practicealigns its means for achieving
(02:03):
change with the ends sought.
Peterson Toscano (02:07):
That's Sam Thacker reading from his
article, Let Your School Speak: The Power of Prefigurative (02:08):
undefined
Practice in Friends Education.It appears in the August 2024
issue of Friends Journal,
Sam Thacker (02:20):
If, for example, we are working toward a just,
inclusive future, ourinstitutions now should be just
and inclusive. Prefigurativepractice is proactive,
courageous and true to itself.In Quaker parlance, its life
speaks. Friends education, inthis conception, honors every
learner's unique gifts, offeringlearning experiences that speak
(02:40):
to differences and tap into thepower of a group's diversity. It
radiates an infectious love fortruth and an openness to
continuing revelation.
Peterson Toscano (02:50):
Sam speaks glowingly of the experience.
Sam Thacker (02:54):
I was really jazzed by it. It was very empowering, I
think. It really says, hey, wedon't need to wait for anything.
If we're very unhappy with kindof our mainstream politics, our
mainstream government, the waythings are in general, there's
nothing stopping us from justgoing out there and starting
something different, doingsomething very tangible that
does align with whatever set ofvalues you would really like to
(03:15):
see advanced in the world, orwhatever type of work you would
like to see advanced in theworld. It was sort of revelatory
to me in that regard, and then Istarted sort of thinking about
how it applied to work as ateacher.
Miche McCall (03:26):
Sam named the course, Another World Is
Possible. In it, his studentsstudied hopeful, ambitious
visions for change andstrategies for achieving them.
Peterson Toscano (03:35):
They read the writings of George and Brett
Lakey, Joanna Macy and RebeccaSolnit. They also studied
adrienne marie brown's EmergentStrategy.
Miche McCall (03:45):
But what do his students think?
Zoe Levenstein (03:47):
Even at a Quaker school, there is much more of an
even playing ground betweenteachers and students. This felt
like an elevated version ofthat, where students really did
have the opportunity to voiceexactly how they felt about what
we were learning about.
Miche McCall (04:03):
That's Zoe Levenstein.
Zoe Levenstein (04:05):
I'm going into 11th grade at Germantown Friends
School. I'm an environmentalist.I am a lesbian, and I am very
interested in Quakerism.
Miche McCall (04:17):
Zoe appreciated the new authors she encountered
in the class, especiallyadrienne marie brown,
Zoe Levenstein (04:24):
The way that they write is just so radical to
read, especially in their prose.There was talk of like animism
and thinking about howstructures of power or
structures of activismcorrespond to structures we see
in nature, which I found reallyinteresting. Reading these types
(04:45):
of texts helped me and myclassmates imagine a world
that's not structured the waythat our world is currently
structured.
Miche McCall (04:55):
Sam facilitated projects that allowed his
students to stretch theircreativity and imagination.
Zoe Levenstein (05:01):
We did a puppet show at the end of the course
imagining a different world, orlike, what the world would look
like in 1000 years, I think itwas. In our puppet show, it was
something like about a verydecentralized government, where
some people were like hairdressers, but then some people
were like scavengers. It wasvery fantastic. It felt kind of
(05:25):
like fantasy sci fi, but it wasreally fun.
Sam Thacker (05:28):
The values that sort of underlie my notion of
prefigurative practice as ateacher are really trying to
offer an alternative learningexperience that forces really
students to engage with theirlearning on different terms, to
really kind of step up andengage with the course and with
each other in a way that'sthat's very personal, and helps
(05:50):
them build what I think isprobably a more authentic
relationship to the subjectmatter when you're going for
something that is sort ofcounter cultural, or is against
what students are sort of usedto, or what people are used to,
in general, there's someresistance there, you know,
there's a learning curve.
Miche McCall (06:06):
After taking this class, Zoe has a clear picture
of the future she wants topursue.
Zoe Levenstein (06:11):
I imagine a world where everyone is engaged.
Because I think what reallydampers my hope a lot is that it
seems like people don't care. In20 years, my hope would be that
even on the street level, I seepeople actively working to help
(06:32):
each other. I also kind ofimagine a world where song and
music is more incorporated, andlike group singing, because I
think it just kind of boosts themood. I imagine a world in which
doing activities like that ismore encouraged. Yeah, I think
it all comes down to like humanconnection, and that makes
people care.
Miche McCall (06:53):
They spent time in the classroom of the future and
imagined the society that theywant to live in. Is that just a
pleasant escape from the realworld we're in today? Zoe
describes that longing for abetter, more just world leads to
action.
Zoe Levenstein (07:08):
Well, I'm already thinking about going
into climate policy work, and II have been since I joined the,
there's something, anotherinitiative Sam started, which is
the Campus Climate Coalition,which is faculty and students
and other community members as acollective. So we organized
(07:32):
community potlucks, which arelike plastic free potlucks. We
had a campaign called use lessplastic, or useless plastic, to
try to have people trash theirplastic so our recycling stream
is more pure. The mostsuccessful was we did a clothing
swap which people love. We dothem in the fall and in the
spring, and we've had four sofar. And it was just, it's been
(07:54):
great. And those likeinitiatives have really inspired
me to work in climate in thefuture, or in climate justice.
This class really solidifiedthat for me.
Peterson Toscano (08:05):
Sam Thacker reasons that prefigurative
practice is nothing new forQuakers, and that it easily
extends beyond the classroomsetting.
Sam Thacker (08:14):
we do as Quaker schools or as Quaker meetings,
for that matter, as Quakerorganizations? What can we do
that would both work towardbringing desired changes about
in the world, but also like wecan do this now, I see Quaker
institutions as examples ofprefigurative practice by and
large. I mean, in my article, Idiscuss meetings for business,
(08:36):
Quaker meetings areprefigurative, both in their
organization, both in the formof worship. Prefigurative
practice is vital, like we haveto live these alternatives and
try them out and experiment withthem and try to bring other
people into them too. There areso many things where
fundamentally better ways ofbeing together and being in
institutions that I think willspeak to so many different
(08:58):
people too, once they sort ofexperience it.
Zoe Levenstein (09:00):
Another World Is Possible was kind of marketed in
the world of prefigurativepractice without exactly using
that word. It's not a term thatmost people know.
Miche McCall (09:13):
That was Zoe Levenstein, a high school
student at Germantown FriendsSchool, and her history teacher
Sam Thacker. Sam designed thecourse, Another World Is
Possible.
Peterson Toscano (09:24):
He wrote the article, Let Your School Speak:
The Power of PrefigurativePractice in Friends Education.
It appears in the April 2024issue of Friends Journal. You
can read it for free atFriendsJournal.org.
Miche McCall (11:11):
In preparing the show, we read the the August
2024 Friends Journal bookreviews. Michael S Glazier
commented on Jessica Jacobs newbook of poetry unalone: Poems in
Conversation With the Book ofGenesis. He wrote "Many of these
poems quite literally took mybreath away with their startling
(11:32):
insights and explications ofbiblical texts in ways that not
only make perfect experientialsense but also break through the
crusty standard interpretationsthat have left us unsatisfied in
the past."
Peterson Toscano (11:46):
As a Bible geek who loves poetry, I had to
read it for myself. Then I saidto Miche, let's invite Jessica
Jacobs to come on the show.
Miche McCall (11:55):
And Jessica agreed. She told us a little bit
about herself and her newcollection of poems.
Peterson Toscano (12:01):
And she read one of her poems for us.
Jessica Jacobs (12:12):
I am a writer, a teacher and an editor, and I'm
also the founder of Yetzirah, aheart for Jewish poetry, which
is the first literaryorganization in the country
supporting Jewish poets. I am aJewish woman. I'm a queer woman,
I am an athlete, I am someonewho loves to be outside. For
(12:35):
whom community is very deeplyimportant to me, personally and
professionally. I grew up in asecular Jewish household, and
really walked away from religionfor most of my life, and then in
my 30s, read the Torah all theway through, I had some really
big questions that writingreally brought up for me. I was
(12:57):
shocked by how that text spokeso directly to my life and to
the world around me. So I spentthe next seven years immersed in
deep study of the book ofGenesis. This new collection
unalone is conversations withthe book of Genesis. There's a
joke that if you ask 10 rabbis aquestion, you'll get 11 answers.
(13:22):
There's not really a set idea ofthe afterlife, but one of the
ideas is that there's somethingcalled Gehenna, which, instead
of hell, is almost like kind ofa limbo, but it's a limbo in
which you have time to reflectand perform teshuva, which is
repentance and see yourself moreclearly, perhaps before going on
(13:44):
to a better realm. So that was abig part of this. And just
thinking about, what does thatmean? What does that mean to see
yourself that clearly? And thisis actually responding to a
photograph by the photographerLeslie Dill, who took a
photograph of a woman's throatwith a line from Emily
(14:05):
Dickinson, which you'll hear inthe second section, "I am afraid
to own a Body— I am afraid toown a Soul". This poem is really
in response to that idea andthat image.
Prayers from a Dark Room GehennaIf Hell is less fiery furnace
(14:27):
than a mirrored room with allthe lights left on, with nowhere
to hide that what burns iswithin us—all the guilt and
sorrow from which we now can’tlook away, then let us accept
our faces as they are. Let usremember that one word: doleket,
(14:52):
means both “in flames” and “fullof light” and know our pain can
be a source of sight. I amafraid to own a Body—I am afraid
to own a Soul— In Eden, garmentsof light sufficed, each human a
(15:16):
lantern lit from within,inextricable from their
ignition—but now, banished, thisdim skin suit, by which the
spirit is dimmed to firefly: such faint flares, such cold (15:28):
undefined
glow. Lonely lighthouses, eachof us. We blink, we beacon, we
long to chorus, we wait for ablaze in return,
(15:50):
until—there!—allied, we pulseone to the next; bind in divine
synchrony (15:58):
for a moment, the whole planet a field of fallen
stars. And from this ensemblebonfire, like smoke scorching
from the narrows of a throat,our fears. A cry for not
ownership but communion, a cryto be answered with expanse of
(16:24):
air, of wind, of ruach, thatgodbreath, gentling in toward
every torn thing, its breachhowever meager—moving leaf into
leaves, melding body to soul,making of every opening a mouth
(16:45):
and setting us all to singing.Can you hear it? A torch song
for the kindred world, thisfleeting one we’re searching
for. Prayer for the Word MadeLight Bathe the window within us
in photo-sensitive silver. Letus aperture. Let us dilate. What
(17:12):
lasts is what is found by light.Negatives of the divine, let us
enter the stop bath of theordinary world. Where we are
most vulnerable, most exposed,that’s what makes the print. We
become what is burned into us: what we open ourselves to. (17:31):
undefined
Peterson Toscano (17:58):
That was poet Jessica Jacobs reading the poem
Prayers from a Dark Room. Itappears in her book on unalone:
Poems in Conversation With theBook of Genesis.
Miche McCall (18:10):
Learn more about Jessica and her other writings
by visiting JessicaLGjacobs.com.That's JessicaLGjacobs.com. you
can read Michael S. Glazier'sfull review FriendsJournal.org.
Peterson Toscano (18:29):
Thank you for joining us for this episode of
Quakers Today. Quakers Today iswritten and produced by me,
Peterson Toscano.
Miche McCall (18:37):
and me, Miche McCall. Music on today's show
comes from Epidemic Sound, andearlier in the episode, you
heard a song by Sam Thacker andhis band Double Truck. You can
find more of their music at2xtruck.bandcamp.com
Peterson Toscano (18:55):
season three of Quakers today is sponsored by
American Friends ServiceCommittee.
Miche McCall (18:59):
Do you want to challenge unjust systems and
promote lasting peace? TheAmerican Friends Service
Committee, or AFSC, works withcommunities worldwide to drive
social change. Their websitefeatures meaningful steps that
you can take to make adifference.
Peterson Toscano (19:17):
Through their Friends Liaison program, you can
connect your meeting or churchwith AFSC and their justice
campaigns.
Miche McCall (19:24):
Find out how you can become part of AFSC's global
community of change makers.Visit afsc.org That's afsc.org
Peterson Toscano (19:35):
Visit QuakersToday.org to see our show
notes and a full transcript ofthis episode.
Miche McCall (19:40):
And if you stick around after the closing, you'll
hear listeners responses to thequestion, "what does Quakerism
have to offer society in 2024?"
Peterson Toscano (19:51):
Thank you, friend. We look forward to being
with you again soon.
Miche McCall (19:55):
Thank you.
Peterson Toscano (20:13):
Miche, hearing Sam and Zoe talk about living in
the future they want toco-create got me excited about
our co-creation, the seasonfinale of Quakers today podcast.
You and I share some importantpassions and identities.
Miche McCall (20:28):
True! We are both Quakers and we're both queer. I
Peterson Toscano (20:31):
And I am a fem-leaning cis-gender gay man,
describe myself as truly noncommittal in the gender and
sexuality department. I am anon-binary bisexual, and I use
they/them pronouns.
or as I like to refer to myself,a sissy, and that's spelled with
(20:52):
a C. I use he/him pronouns.
Miche McCall (20:55):
Amazing. We are both obsessed with climate
change, yes, and with findingcreative ways to address its
many issues.
Peterson Toscano (21:04):
So Miche and I decided that we would mash all
these personal elementstogether, and we are creating a
show that explores queer Quakerresponses to climate change.
Joining us will be other queerQuakers concerned about climate
change. That's hard to say,actually, we're like a whole
(21:25):
cohort now.
Miche McCall (21:26):
Haha, don't worry if you're not queer or a Quaker
or even concerned about climatechange. We're working on an
episode that will be engagingfor all. The episode airs on
Tuesday, September 17, 2024.
(21:49):
In a moment, you'll hearlisteners voicemails about what
Quakerism has to offer societyin 2024.
Peterson Toscano (21:56):
But first we're going to share next
month's questions with you. Hereare the questions. What is a
Quaker response to climatechange? And, what is a queer
Quaker response to climatechange?
Miche McCall (22:09):
Climate change is a huge topic that needs serious
attention. How we communicatethe world we want to co-create
while tackling its causes andimpacts matters. By looking at
climate change related issuesthrough multiple lenses, we can
discover fresh ways ofresponding.
Peterson Toscano (22:27):
Now, you may already be part of a creative
effort to address climatechange, or you may enjoy this
thought experiment as youimagine Quakers and queer
Quakers influencing the climatemovement.
Miche McCall (22:40):
What is a Quaker response to climate change, and
what is a queer Quaker responseto climate change? Answer
whichever you want or both,
Peterson Toscano (22:48):
Leave a voicemail with your name and
your town. The number to call is317, QUAKERS , that's
317-782-5377. 317-QUAKERS. +1 ifcalling from outside the USA.
Miche McCall (23:06):
you can also respond to this question on one
of our social media platforms,Instagram, Tiktok and X. I have
these contact details in ourshow notes over at
QuakersToday.org
Peterson Toscano (23:19):
Now we hear answers to the question, what
does Quakerism have to offersociety in 2024?
Miche McCall (23:26):
Peterson, we received many responses on our
various social media channels.
Peterson Toscano (23:32):
Yeah, those channels are really popping.
Miche McCall (23:34):
I know! Quakers are online. Luap Iyasi said,
“Quakers have a great deal tooffer to the current generation.
True Spirituality that surpassesall understanding. I am talking
about the true bible basedspirituality that wholly submits
to the leading of the HolySpirit.”
(23:55):
Lori Piñeiro Sinitzky said, "Apractice of pausing. A practice
of listening. The lack of bothof these in everyday U.S.
culture contributes to thegrowing inability to be in
community across differences."
Pete Siebert wrote a "a provenhistory of offering silence
(24:17):
before speaking" Chris Yatessimply states "decency".
Alessandra Smith says "That linkbetween faith or spirituality
and everyday human diversity.Among the current tide of
divisive far right voicesappropriating the name of
Christianity to drive wedgesamong people, I think Quakers
(24:37):
have a real role to play incontinuing to speak for who we
and others are and bringingcommunity together. Quakers are
a force for empathy and it’sthat that the world needs a
shedload more of in the here andnow."
Peterson Toscano (24:52):
You have to be careful how you say that one a
shedload.
Miche McCall (24:56):
A sheadload! And Ben Wood said, "a reminder of
God's love for the world; arecollection of a Larger Life
which is always longing to meetus." Blue heart emoji, fire
emoji.
Peterson Toscano (25:13):
We also received voicemail responses and
answers from people who attendedthe 2024 friends General
Conference gathering.
Unknown (25:22):
My name is Eric Seidner. I live in Philadelphia.
The Quaker testimonies aboutpeace and integrity are kind of
timeless, although I'm feelingthat they're particularly maybe
needed more right now, in 2024.When there's a lot of
misinformation anddisinformation going around
Quakers are really, in my view,on a search for truth, a quest
(25:46):
for truth, and trying to look ateverything and find out what is
really real and true about theworld. Quakers do a very good
job at following the teachingsof Christ. I was not brought up
a Quaker. I was brought up inthe Methodist Church. Christ was
teaching about living a life oflove and peace and kindness. And
(26:07):
I don't see that being thedominant way that people live
their lives in the United Statesright now. And I'd like us to
move honestly towards that.Another thing about Quakers is
the idea of continuingrevelation that we haven't all
figured everything out yet.There isn't the final word on
God and the universe and theworld and everything, and we are
(26:28):
trying to understand it, andagain, with integrity, trying to
understand and find the truth.
Hi, I'm Levi and I'm fromRichard, Virginia. The short
answer is speaking truth withlove. And I think what I mean by
that is there's a real need inour society to be able to
connect to people and reach outand understand experiences
(26:53):
better in order for us to beable to really address the
underlying inequalities anddestructive practices that we
all engage in, including me, inorder to do that, though, like,
we need to have more connectionand more trust and yeah, that,
(27:13):
like, we need more truth-tellingas part of that, and we need to
practice that skill. Quakers doa lot of practicing that skill,
and we do it often in community,where we practice it with love.
And I think that is something wecan offer. And I think there's a
connection there to some of thelessons from deep canvassing, in
terms of, like, having extendedconversations with people about
(27:34):
their lives and values and yourown life and values. That's, you
know, something that theresearch shows actually moves
people on political and policyissues, particularly policy
issues, in a way that, like alot of the rest of what we do,
doesn't move people's opinionson policy issues. I think
there's some connection therebetween, like, the idea of
speaking truth with love andwith deep canvassing that, like
(27:56):
we can offer to the world and wecould practice more.
Various Speakers (28:00):
Hello. My name is Mahayana Landowne. I'm a
member of Brooklyn really. Idon't know if it's Quakerism,
but I think the big thing for meis Friendship. We as Quakers or
as people or as human beings,have a gift of being able to be
friends with each other and andfriends that accept each other
(28:24):
as they are with lovinggenerosity and grace and courage
and interest and intrigue andthe sense of being there for our
friends, even the people we'vejust met, because the potential
for anyone and everyone tobecome a friend is a huge gift
(28:45):
of Quakerism. So in 2024 in thistime, when people are stressed
and worried and isolated, thissense of I can be your friend
because you are beautiful,exactly as you are, is a real
thing that Quakerism can offersociety. That radical assessment
(29:07):
and generosity of spirit and thepotential for everyone and
anyone to be a friend with nostrings attached, no judgment
and no new qualifiers on it,it's just you are who you are,
and that makes me want to beyour friend. Thank you and
wishing everyone well. Blessingsto you all. Thank you.
(29:30):
Penelope. Ridgecrest,California, Quakers Today says
that it seeks wisdom andunderstanding in a rapidly
changing world. I think thatwould help with the divisions
within our country, and to helpunify the citizens of our
nation. We need to havecompassion to people with
(29:52):
differing views. Many of us havebeen taken in by false
information and scams. Thank you.
In this episode of Quakers today, we ask, what does
Quakerism have to offer societyin 2024?
Peterson Toscano (00:08):
Jessica Jacobs, a queer Jewish poet,
tells us about her newcollection of poems unalone:
Poems in Conversation With theBook of Genesis. She will read
one of her poems for us.
Miche McCall (00:21):
We also explore prefigurative practice in a
Quaker classroom. What isprefigurative practice? It's a
little like time travel. We willhear from Zoe Levenstein, a high
school student from GermantownFriends School, and her history
teacher Sam Thacker.
Peterson Toscano (00:37):
Zoe and Sam will not only tell us about how
they imagined the future, butalso reveal how they lived in
it. I am Peterson Toscano,
Miche McCall (00:45):
and I'm Miche McCall.
Peterson Toscano (00:47):
This is season three, episode five of the
Quakers Today podcast, a projectof Friends Publishing
Corporation.
Miche McCall (00:54):
This season of Quakers today is sponsored by
the American Friends ServiceCommittee.
Peterson Toscano (01:04):
What is your relationship with time travel?
Miche McCall (01:08):
Some people might be reluctant to travel to the
past because of their identitiesand bodies. Creative writers who
have historically experiencedoppression often have opted
instead to travel to the futurethrough science fiction.
Peterson Toscano (01:21):
A high school history class at Germantown
Friends School did something alittle different. As they
studied the past, they chose tocreate the classroom of the
future. Their teacher, SamThacker, refers to this as
prefigurative practice.
Sam Thacker (01:42):
Drawn from anarchist thought, prefigurative
practice is a way of doingthings based on two notions. The
first is that we don't have towait to build institutions that
will help realize the change wewish to see in the world. The
other is that the institutionsand practices we develop along
the way ought to embody ourultimate vision. Put another
way, prefigurative practicealigns its means for achieving
(02:03):
change with the ends sought.
Peterson Toscano (02:07):
That's Sam Thacker reading from his
article, Let Your School Speak: The Power of Prefigurative (02:08):
undefined
Practice in Friends Education.It appears in the August 2024
issue of Friends Journal,
Sam Thacker (02:20):
If, for example, we are working toward a just,
inclusive future, ourinstitutions now should be just
and inclusive. Prefigurativepractice is proactive,
courageous and true to itself.In Quaker parlance, its life
speaks. Friends education, inthis conception, honors every
learner's unique gifts, offeringlearning experiences that speak
(02:40):
to differences and tap into thepower of a group's diversity. It
radiates an infectious love fortruth and an openness to
continuing revelation.
Peterson Toscano (02:50):
Sam speaks glowingly of the experience.
Sam Thacker (02:54):
I was really jazzed by it. It was very empowering, I
think. It really says, hey, wedon't need to wait for anything.
If we're very unhappy with kindof our mainstream politics, our
mainstream government, the waythings are in general, there's
nothing stopping us from justgoing out there and starting
something different, doingsomething very tangible that
does align with whatever set ofvalues you would really like to
(03:15):
see advanced in the world, orwhatever type of work you would
like to see advanced in theworld. It was sort of revelatory
to me in that regard, and then Istarted sort of thinking about
how it applied to work as ateacher.
Miche McCall (03:26):
Sam named the course, Another World Is
Possible. In it, his studentsstudied hopeful, ambitious
visions for change andstrategies for achieving them.
Peterson Toscano (03:35):
They read the writings of George and Brett
Lakey, Joanna Macy and RebeccaSolnit. They also studied
adrienne marie brown's EmergentStrategy.
Miche McCall (03:45):
But what do his students think?
Zoe Levenstein (03:47):
Even at a Quaker school, there is much more of an
even playing ground betweenteachers and students. This felt
like an elevated version ofthat, where students really did
have the opportunity to voiceexactly how they felt about what
we were learning about.
Miche McCall (04:03):
That's Zoe Levenstein.
Zoe Levenstein (04:05):
I'm going into 11th grade at Germantown Friends
School. I'm an environmentalist.I am a lesbian, and I am very
interested in Quakerism.
Miche McCall (04:17):
Zoe appreciated the new authors she encountered
in the class, especiallyadrienne marie brown,
Zoe Levenstein (04:24):
The way that they write is just so radical to
read, especially in their prose.There was talk of like animism
and thinking about howstructures of power or
structures of activismcorrespond to structures we see
in nature, which I found reallyinteresting. Reading these types
(04:45):
of texts helped me and myclassmates imagine a world
that's not structured the waythat our world is currently
structured.
Miche McCall (04:55):
Sam facilitated projects that allowed his
students to stretch theircreativity and imagination.
Zoe Levenstein (05:01):
We did a puppet show at the end of the course
imagining a different world, orlike, what the world would look
like in 1000 years, I think itwas. In our puppet show, it was
something like about a verydecentralized government, where
some people were like hairdressers, but then some people
were like scavengers. It wasvery fantastic. It felt kind of
(05:25):
like fantasy sci fi, but it wasreally fun.
Sam Thacker (05:28):
The values that sort of underlie my notion of
prefigurative practice as ateacher are really trying to
offer an alternative learningexperience that forces really
students to engage with theirlearning on different terms, to
really kind of step up andengage with the course and with
each other in a way that'sthat's very personal, and helps
(05:50):
them build what I think isprobably a more authentic
relationship to the subjectmatter when you're going for
something that is sort ofcounter cultural, or is against
what students are sort of usedto, or what people are used to,
in general, there's someresistance there, you know,
there's a learning curve.
Miche McCall (06:06):
After taking this class, Zoe has a clear picture
of the future she wants topursue.
Zoe Levenstein (06:11):
I imagine a world where everyone is engaged.
Because I think what reallydampers my hope a lot is that it
seems like people don't care. In20 years, my hope would be that
even on the street level, I seepeople actively working to help
(06:32):
each other. I also kind ofimagine a world where song and
music is more incorporated, andlike group singing, because I
think it just kind of boosts themood. I imagine a world in which
doing activities like that ismore encouraged. Yeah, I think
it all comes down to like humanconnection, and that makes
people care.
Miche McCall (06:53):
They spent time in the classroom of the future and
imagined the society that theywant to live in. Is that just a
pleasant escape from the realworld we're in today? Zoe
describes that longing for abetter, more just world leads to
action.
Zoe Levenstein (07:08):
Well, I'm already thinking about going
into climate policy work, and II have been since I joined the,
there's something, anotherinitiative Sam started, which is
the Campus Climate Coalition,which is faculty and students
and other community members as acollective. So we organized
(07:32):
community potlucks, which arelike plastic free potlucks. We
had a campaign called use lessplastic, or useless plastic, to
try to have people trash theirplastic so our recycling stream
is more pure. The mostsuccessful was we did a clothing
swap which people love. We dothem in the fall and in the
spring, and we've had four sofar. And it was just, it's been
(07:54):
great. And those likeinitiatives have really inspired
me to work in climate in thefuture, or in climate justice.
This class really solidifiedthat for me.
Peterson Toscano (08:05):
Sam Thacker reasons that prefigurative
practice is nothing new forQuakers, and that it easily
extends beyond the classroomsetting.
Sam Thacker (08:14):
we do as Quaker schools or as Quaker meetings,
for that matter, as Quakerorganizations? What can we do
that would both work towardbringing desired changes about
in the world, but also like wecan do this now, I see Quaker
institutions as examples ofprefigurative practice by and
large. I mean, in my article, Idiscuss meetings for business,
(08:36):
Quaker meetings areprefigurative, both in their
organization, both in the formof worship. Prefigurative
practice is vital, like we haveto live these alternatives and
try them out and experiment withthem and try to bring other
people into them too. There areso many things where
fundamentally better ways ofbeing together and being in
institutions that I think willspeak to so many different
(08:58):
people too, once they sort ofexperience it.
Zoe Levenstein (09:00):
Another World Is Possible was kind of marketed in
the world of prefigurativepractice without exactly using
that word. It's not a term thatmost people know.
Miche McCall (09:13):
That was Zoe Levenstein, a high school
student at Germantown FriendsSchool, and her history teacher
Sam Thacker. Sam designed thecourse, Another World Is
Possible.
Peterson Toscano (09:24):
He wrote the article, Let Your School Speak:
The Power of PrefigurativePractice in Friends Education.
It appears in the April 2024issue of Friends Journal. You
can read it for free atFriendsJournal.org.
Miche McCall (11:11):
In preparing the show, we read the the August
2024 Friends Journal bookreviews. Michael S Glazier
commented on Jessica Jacobs newbook of poetry unalone: Poems in
Conversation With the Book ofGenesis. He wrote "Many of these
poems quite literally took mybreath away with their startling
(11:32):
insights and explications ofbiblical texts in ways that not
only make perfect experientialsense but also break through the
crusty standard interpretationsthat have left us unsatisfied in
the past."
Peterson Toscano (11:46):
As a Bible geek who loves poetry, I had to
read it for myself. Then I saidto Miche, let's invite Jessica
Jacobs to come on the show.
Miche McCall (11:55):
And Jessica agreed. She told us a little bit
about herself and her newcollection of poems.
Peterson Toscano (12:01):
And she read one of her poems for us.
Jessica Jacobs (12:12):
I am a writer, a teacher and an editor, and I'm
also the founder of Yetzirah, aheart for Jewish poetry, which
is the first literaryorganization in the country
supporting Jewish poets. I am aJewish woman. I'm a queer woman,
I am an athlete, I am someonewho loves to be outside. For
(12:35):
whom community is very deeplyimportant to me, personally and
professionally. I grew up in asecular Jewish household, and
really walked away from religionfor most of my life, and then in
my 30s, read the Torah all theway through, I had some really
big questions that writingreally brought up for me. I was
(12:57):
shocked by how that text spokeso directly to my life and to
the world around me. So I spentthe next seven years immersed in
deep study of the book ofGenesis. This new collection
unalone is conversations withthe book of Genesis. There's a
joke that if you ask 10 rabbis aquestion, you'll get 11 answers.
(13:22):
There's not really a set idea ofthe afterlife, but one of the
ideas is that there's somethingcalled Gehenna, which, instead
of hell, is almost like kind ofa limbo, but it's a limbo in
which you have time to reflectand perform teshuva, which is
repentance and see yourself moreclearly, perhaps before going on
(13:44):
to a better realm. So that was abig part of this. And just
thinking about, what does thatmean? What does that mean to see
yourself that clearly? And thisis actually responding to a
photograph by the photographerLeslie Dill, who took a
photograph of a woman's throatwith a line from Emily
(14:05):
Dickinson, which you'll hear inthe second section, "I am afraid
to own a Body— I am afraid toown a Soul". This poem is really
in response to that idea andthat image.
Prayers from a Dark Room GehennaIf Hell is less fiery furnace
(14:27):
than a mirrored room with allthe lights left on, with nowhere
to hide that what burns iswithin us—all the guilt and
sorrow from which we now can’tlook away, then let us accept
our faces as they are. Let usremember that one word: doleket,
(14:52):
means both “in flames” and “fullof light” and know our pain can
be a source of sight. I amafraid to own a Body—I am afraid
to own a Soul— In Eden, garmentsof light sufficed, each human a
(15:16):
lantern lit from within,inextricable from their
ignition—but now, banished, thisdim skin suit, by which the
spirit is dimmed to firefly: such faint flares, such cold (15:28):
undefined
glow. Lonely lighthouses, eachof us. We blink, we beacon, we
long to chorus, we wait for ablaze in return,
(15:50):
until—there!—allied, we pulseone to the next; bind in divine
synchrony (15:58):
for a moment, the whole planet a field of fallen
stars. And from this ensemblebonfire, like smoke scorching
from the narrows of a throat,our fears. A cry for not
ownership but communion, a cryto be answered with expanse of
(16:24):
air, of wind, of ruach, thatgodbreath, gentling in toward
every torn thing, its breachhowever meager—moving leaf into
leaves, melding body to soul,making of every opening a mouth
(16:45):
and setting us all to singing.Can you hear it? A torch song
for the kindred world, thisfleeting one we’re searching
for. Prayer for the Word MadeLight Bathe the window within us
in photo-sensitive silver. Letus aperture. Let us dilate. What
(17:12):
lasts is what is found by light.Negatives of the divine, let us
enter the stop bath of theordinary world. Where we are
most vulnerable, most exposed,that’s what makes the print. We
become what is burned into us: what we open ourselves to. (17:31):
undefined
Peterson Toscano (17:58):
That was poet Jessica Jacobs reading the poem
Prayers from a Dark Room. Itappears in her book on unalone:
Poems in Conversation With theBook of Genesis.
Miche McCall (18:10):
Learn more about Jessica and her other writings
by visiting JessicaLGjacobs.com.That's JessicaLGjacobs.com. you
can read Michael S. Glazier'sfull review FriendsJournal.org.
Peterson Toscano (18:29):
Thank you for joining us for this episode of
Quakers Today. Quakers Today iswritten and produced by me,
Peterson Toscano.
Miche McCall (18:37):
and me, Miche McCall. Music on today's show
comes from Epidemic Sound, andearlier in the episode, you
heard a song by Sam Thacker andhis band Double Truck. You can
find more of their music at2xtruck.bandcamp.com
Peterson Toscano (18:55):
season three of Quakers today is sponsored by
American Friends ServiceCommittee.
Miche McCall (18:59):
Do you want to challenge unjust systems and
promote lasting peace? TheAmerican Friends Service
Committee, or AFSC, works withcommunities worldwide to drive
social change. Their websitefeatures meaningful steps that
you can take to make adifference.
Peterson Toscano (19:17):
Through their Friends Liaison program, you can
connect your meeting or churchwith AFSC and their justice
campaigns.
Miche McCall (19:24):
Find out how you can become part of AFSC's global
community of change makers.Visit afsc.org That's afsc.org
Peterson Toscano (19:35):
Visit QuakersToday.org to see our show
notes and a full transcript ofthis episode.
Miche McCall (19:40):
And if you stick around after the closing, you'll
hear listeners responses to thequestion, "what does Quakerism
have to offer society in 2024?"
Peterson Toscano (19:51):
Thank you, friend. We look forward to being
with you again soon.
Miche McCall (19:55):
Thank you.
Peterson Toscano (20:13):
Miche, hearing Sam and Zoe talk about living in
the future they want toco-create got me excited about
our co-creation, the seasonfinale of Quakers today podcast.
You and I share some importantpassions and identities.
Miche McCall (20:28):
True! We are both Quakers and we're both queer. I
Peterson Toscano (20:31):
And I am a fem-leaning cis-gender gay man,
describe myself as truly noncommittal in the gender and
sexuality department. I am anon-binary bisexual, and I use
they/them pronouns.
or as I like to refer to myself,a sissy, and that's spelled with
(20:52):
a C. I use he/him pronouns.
Miche McCall (20:55):
Amazing. We are both obsessed with climate
change, yes, and with findingcreative ways to address its
many issues.
Peterson Toscano (21:04):
So Miche and I decided that we would mash all
these personal elementstogether, and we are creating a
show that explores queer Quakerresponses to climate change.
Joining us will be other queerQuakers concerned about climate
change. That's hard to say,actually, we're like a whole
(21:25):
cohort now.
Miche McCall (21:26):
Haha, don't worry if you're not queer or a Quaker
or even concerned about climatechange. We're working on an
episode that will be engagingfor all. The episode airs on
Tuesday, September 17, 2024.
(21:49):
In a moment, you'll hearlisteners voicemails about what
Quakerism has to offer societyin 2024.
Peterson Toscano (21:56):
But first we're going to share next
month's questions with you. Hereare the questions. What is a
Quaker response to climatechange? And, what is a queer
Quaker response to climatechange?
Miche McCall (22:09):
Climate change is a huge topic that needs serious
attention. How we communicatethe world we want to co-create
while tackling its causes andimpacts matters. By looking at
climate change related issuesthrough multiple lenses, we can
discover fresh ways ofresponding.
Peterson Toscano (22:27):
Now, you may already be part of a creative
effort to address climatechange, or you may enjoy this
thought experiment as youimagine Quakers and queer
Quakers influencing the climatemovement.
Miche McCall (22:40):
What is a Quaker response to climate change, and
what is a queer Quaker responseto climate change? Answer
whichever you want or both,
Peterson Toscano (22:48):
Leave a voicemail with your name and
your town. The number to call is317, QUAKERS , that's
317-782-5377. 317-QUAKERS. +1 ifcalling from outside the USA.
Miche McCall (23:06):
you can also respond to this question on one
of our social media platforms,Instagram, Tiktok and X. I have
these contact details in ourshow notes over at
QuakersToday.org
Peterson Toscano (23:19):
Now we hear answers to the question, what
does Quakerism have to offersociety in 2024?
Miche McCall (23:26):
Peterson, we received many responses on our
various social media channels.
Peterson Toscano (23:32):
Yeah, those channels are really popping.
Miche McCall (23:34):
I know! Quakers are online. Luap Iyasi said,
“Quakers have a great deal tooffer to the current generation.
True Spirituality that surpassesall understanding. I am talking
about the true bible basedspirituality that wholly submits
to the leading of the HolySpirit.”
(23:55):
Lori Piñeiro Sinitzky said, "Apractice of pausing. A practice
of listening. The lack of bothof these in everyday U.S.
culture contributes to thegrowing inability to be in
community across differences."
Pete Siebert wrote a "a provenhistory of offering silence
(24:17):
before speaking" Chris Yatessimply states "decency".
Alessandra Smith says "That linkbetween faith or spirituality
and everyday human diversity.Among the current tide of
divisive far right voicesappropriating the name of
Christianity to drive wedgesamong people, I think Quakers
(24:37):
have a real role to play incontinuing to speak for who we
and others are and bringingcommunity together. Quakers are
a force for empathy and it’sthat that the world needs a
shedload more of in the here andnow."
Peterson Toscano (24:52):
You have to be careful how you say that one a
shedload.
Miche McCall (24:56):
A sheadload! And Ben Wood said, "a reminder of
God's love for the world; arecollection of a Larger Life
which is always longing to meetus." Blue heart emoji, fire
emoji.
Peterson Toscano (25:13):
We also received voicemail responses and
answers from people who attendedthe 2024 friends General
Conference gathering.
Unknown (25:22):
My name is Eric Seidner. I live in Philadelphia.
The Quaker testimonies aboutpeace and integrity are kind of
timeless, although I'm feelingthat they're particularly maybe
needed more right now, in 2024.When there's a lot of
misinformation anddisinformation going around
Quakers are really, in my view,on a search for truth, a quest
(25:46):
for truth, and trying to look ateverything and find out what is
really real and true about theworld. Quakers do a very good
job at following the teachingsof Christ. I was not brought up
a Quaker. I was brought up inthe Methodist Church. Christ was
teaching about living a life oflove and peace and kindness. And
(26:07):
I don't see that being thedominant way that people live
their lives in the United Statesright now. And I'd like us to
move honestly towards that.Another thing about Quakers is
the idea of continuingrevelation that we haven't all
figured everything out yet.There isn't the final word on
God and the universe and theworld and everything, and we are
(26:28):
trying to understand it, andagain, with integrity, trying to
understand and find the truth.
Hi, I'm Levi and I'm fromRichard, Virginia. The short
answer is speaking truth withlove. And I think what I mean by
that is there's a real need inour society to be able to
connect to people and reach outand understand experiences
(26:53):
better in order for us to beable to really address the
underlying inequalities anddestructive practices that we
all engage in, including me, inorder to do that, though, like,
we need to have more connectionand more trust and yeah, that,
(27:13):
like, we need more truth-tellingas part of that, and we need to
practice that skill. Quakers doa lot of practicing that skill,
and we do it often in community,where we practice it with love.
And I think that is something wecan offer. And I think there's a
connection there to some of thelessons from deep canvassing, in
terms of, like, having extendedconversations with people about
(27:34):
their lives and values and yourown life and values. That's, you
know, something that theresearch shows actually moves
people on political and policyissues, particularly policy
issues, in a way that, like alot of the rest of what we do,
doesn't move people's opinionson policy issues. I think
there's some connection therebetween, like, the idea of
speaking truth with love andwith deep canvassing that, like
(27:56):
we can offer to the world and wecould practice more.
Various Speakers (28:00):
Hello. My name is Mahayana Landowne. I'm a
member of Brooklyn really. Idon't know if it's Quakerism,
but I think the big thing for meis Friendship. We as Quakers or
as people or as human beings,have a gift of being able to be
friends with each other and andfriends that accept each other
(28:24):
as they are with lovinggenerosity and grace and courage
and interest and intrigue andthe sense of being there for our
friends, even the people we'vejust met, because the potential
for anyone and everyone tobecome a friend is a huge gift
(28:45):
of Quakerism. So in 2024 in thistime, when people are stressed
and worried and isolated, thissense of I can be your friend
because you are beautiful,exactly as you are, is a real
thing that Quakerism can offersociety. That radical assessment
(29:07):
and generosity of spirit and thepotential for everyone and
anyone to be a friend with nostrings attached, no judgment
and no new qualifiers on it,it's just you are who you are,
and that makes me want to beyour friend. Thank you and
wishing everyone well. Blessingsto you all. Thank you.
(29:30):
Penelope. Ridgecrest,California, Quakers Today says
that it seeks wisdom andunderstanding in a rapidly
changing world. I think thatwould help with the divisions
within our country, and to helpunify the citizens of our
nation. We need to havecompassion to people with
(29:52):
differing views. Many of us havebeen taken in by false
information and scams. Thank you.
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