August 12, 2025 • 23 mins
In this episode of Quakers Today, we consider the Bible. Co-host Peterson Toscano (he/him) speaks with Jesuit priest and best-selling author Father James Martin about the story of Lazarus and what it means to live a resurrected life in today’s world. From a powerful visit to Lazarus’s tomb in Palestinian territory to reflections on freedom and healing, Father Martin brings spiritual and historical depth to a story often overlooked.
We also hear from Ollie, a British Quaker and creator of the popular YouTube channel Quake It Up. In conversation with Peterson, Ollie explores the role of the Bible in liberal Quakerism, what happens when scripture is weaponized, and how we can find spiritual grounding beyond the written word.
This episode delves into the complications and possibilities of engaging with sacred texts, especially for those who have felt harmed by them. It also celebrates the boldness of Mary and Martha in the Gospels, and the courage it takes to step outside of cultural norms in pursuit of truth.
Featured GuestsFr. James Martin, SJ Editor-at-large of America Magazine and author of Come Forth: The Promise of Jesus's Greatest Miracle. He also hosts the Spiritual Direction podcast. Learn more at AmericaMagazine.org.
Ollie from Quake It Up Quaker YouTuber and podcast host whose channel explores the faith and practice of liberal Quakerism. You can find Quake It Up on YouTube, Instagram, and Bluesky.
Listener Question for Next Month🎙️ What’s your favorite Quaker term or phrase? Something common among Friends, but maybe a little odd to outsiders?
Leave a voice memo with your name and location. Call 317-QUAKERS (317-782-5377). If you're outside the U.S., dial +1 first. You can also send your answer via email or on social media. Email: podcast@quakerstoday.org
Resources📖 Come Forth: The Promise of Jesus’s Greatest Miracle – by Fr. James Martin 🎥 Quake It Up on YouTube 📝 Friends Journal’s new Bible Study column. We welcome your insights, your stories, and your questions.
Transfigurations--Transgressing Gender in the Bible by Peterson Toscano. Available for free viewing on YouTube.
Episode Highlights- Spiritual Geography: Fr. Martin reflects on visiting the tomb of Lazarus in Al-Eizariya (Bethany), a pilgrimage site in Palestinian territory, and how this physical journey mirrors spiritual transformation.
- Freedom as Disruption: Lazarus’s story reveals how resurrection is not just about life after death but the courage to leave behind shame and fear.
- Mary at Jesus's Feet: Peterson and Ollie reclaim this story as one of gender expansiveness, courage, and spiritual authority.
- Quaker Perspectives on the Bible: Ollie and Peterson explore the tension between inward spiritual authority and the cultural dominance of scripture—especially when it's used to exclude or harm.
- New Life and Letting Go: What must we leave behind to embrace spiritual freedom?
Quakers Today is the companion podcast to Friends Journal and other Friends Publishing Corporation (FPC) content online. It is written, hosted, and produced by Peterson Toscano and Sweet Miche McCall.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Peterson Toscano (00:00):
In this episode of Quakers Today, we Consider
the Bible.
Hi, I'm, um, Peterson Centiscano, and this is Quakers Today,
a podcast from Friends Publishing
Corporation. As a Quaker who's
also a Bible scholar, I'm often asked how
Quakers view the Hebrew and Christian
(00:22):
scriptures. This episode won't
answer all your questions, but it will provide
a jumping off point. I'll also share
resources to help you explore more.
One of my guests today is the host of the
popular YouTube channel Quake it Up.
Ollie and I have been talking about the
(00:43):
Bible, its place in modern Quaker practice,
its violence, and how people like me who've been
hurt by weaponized scripture, find our way
back to it. Or not.
But first, you'll hear my conversation with a
Jesuit priest, Father James Martin, the
editor at large for, um, America A, ah, National
(01:04):
Catholic magazine. He's written and
edited over 15 books, including
Come the Raising of
the Promise of Jesus, Greatest Miracle
Alone and with pilgrim groups. Father James has
visited what is believed to be the. The tomb
of Lazarus, located in
(01:24):
Palestinian territory. I have
long been fascinated with this Lazarus story,
so I was thrilled to have this conversation.
>> James Martin (01:35):
Bethany, which is outside of Jerusalem, now
called Al Azariah. Very beautifully, the place
of Lazarus still
retained in the. In the Arabic, the place of Lazarus
is a place that you can visit. And so I wanted to show the reader who
might not be able to go there, what is it like to go into the
tomb? What is it like to see the area around
(01:56):
it? When I first visited, uh,
Israel on a pilgrimage to the Holy Land to do research
for a book called Jesus A Pilgrimage, I was talking to
another Jesuit priest. And he said, well, where do you want to go? And I said, well, you
know, the Sea of Galilee, Church of the Holy Sepulcher,
Gethsemane, all the places that people would want to see.
And he said, what about Lazarus's tomb? I said,
lazarus's tomb? Well, you can visit that. Like, where is.
(02:18):
Where even is that? He said, it's outside Jerusalem again
in this place called Al Azariah, which I just find. Very
beautiful. Place of Lazarus. That's what it says on the bus,
you know, when you travel there. And so,
um, I went
now, there weren't many people there. And I think one of the reasons is
(02:38):
that it is in Palestinian territory. And
so I think people have this idea that it is
dangerous or hard to get to or inaccessible or
whatever. And it is, you know, it certainly does
not have as many tourists or pilgrims
as the other sites do. It's been venerated since the
earliest days. Of the church. So people think this is the place.
You go down this staircase, this stone
(03:01):
staircase, and you're in this kind of cavity, this sort of
stone cavity, um, where there are kind of niches in
the wall. I have pictures in the book,
and it's really powerful. And that was the place where I really
sort of started to think, all right, what do I want to leave behind in the
tomb? How can I hear God calling
me to new life? For me, that was the connection
(03:21):
between the story that happened 2,000 years ago and a
story that's relevant to all of us today.
When we started to do pilgrimages of the Holy Land through
American media, where I work, I thought, well, I
definitely want to take them to Lazarus Tomb. And I thought, you know,
okay, we'll see how people respond to it. And people
were. People would come out in tears because
(03:43):
I think the kind of. The sort of physical
pilgrimage down into this tomb, which is. It's a little bit
dangerous and slippery, as I say in the book. And being
alone in this kind of quiet, dark,
literally sepulchral place, and then coming
out into the light is really powerful. So I think
a lot of sort of spiritual experiences are connected to kind
(04:03):
of physical experiences, too. So walking
pilgrimage, going to a place, and to kind of
go down and then come up to come forth was
really powerful for people. And so that's one of the things
that convinced me to write the book, basically, was
seeing how much effect it had on people.
>> Peterson Toscano (04:22):
When we talk about Lazarus, we talk about
freedom. But here's the thing.
Freedom is disruptive. It
upends what people expect. And
that's something Jesus seemed to appreciate.
Think about Mary and Martha.
>> James Martin (04:41):
Yeah, so Martha and Mary are huge parts of the story.
And for those who don't know the story, when they send word
to Jesus that their brother Lazarus is ill,
whom they call very touchingly, he whom you love. Jesus, uh,
waits a few days.
When Martha and Mary greet him, uh, outside of
Bethany, before he goes to the tomb, they both say to him, word
(05:04):
for word, lord, if you had been here, our brother would not have
died. And it's very blunt. I mean, I think it
sort of reminds us of the need for
honesty with God in prayer. And, you know, their
characters just kind of come out. They are really strong
characters. Even though they only have a few lines in
the Gospels to speak, they're strong, vivid,
and memorable characters.
(05:27):
A lot of New Testament scholars say that when we know the names of
people outside of the disciples, so Martha, Mary, and Lazarus,
we can be sure that These were people known to the early
church.
>> Peterson Toscano (05:39):
There's that famous story where Martha is working
hard, preparing food, making sure
everything's.
In order,
while Mary, well, she just.
Sits at the feet of Jesus. And Martha gets
frustrated. She says to Jesus, uh, make her help me.
And instead of saying, you're right, Martha,
(06:00):
women should be in the kitchen. Jesus says,
mary has chosen what is
better. And a lot of sermons that I've heard
focus on that, saying we should be more like Mary
and less like Martha. But let's be clear about
something. Without the Marthas of this world,
nothing would get done. Okay?
(06:20):
Church doesn't happen without the Marthas. Running
Sunday school, setting up chairs, cleaning up
after coffee hour. And Mary, oh,
she wasn't being submissive. She
was bold. In that culture, the
spot at the teacher's feet was reserved for
male disciples. Mary took that
place. She stepped out of line. She
(06:43):
bent the gender rules.
And Jesus didn't scold her.
He affirmed her.
If anyone ever tells you that queerness,
that gender expansiveness, that stepping outside of
traditional roles is somehow ungodly, remind
them that Jesus had a habit of
(07:06):
lifting up the ones who broke the rules. He
looked at Mary and essentially said, yeah, you
belong here.
Lazarus's story reminds us that art can
breathe life into ancient text,
(07:26):
helping us see them and ourselves in a
new light.
>> James Martin (07:31):
I'm just fascinated by the way that Lazarus has so many
resonances in culture and in the arts. He
is a consistent theme of artists.
I thought it was also basically kind of fun to put
images in the book. I, uh, quoted Alice in
Wonderland. What's the use of a book without pictures?
To be able to see that and to see how different artists treated the
(07:51):
story. Really helps us to understand what was going on in
their times. I think it's
just interesting to see also what artists like
playwrights and poets and novelists have done with the story.
For example, in a lot of the stories, fictional, uh,
the sort of fictionalization, uh, of Lazarus's story,
you have Lazarus not wanting to come back from the dead,
(08:13):
which I found kind of charming and funny,
but then also kind of sort of interesting. Like,
what would it have meant for him to come back from the dead?
>> Peterson Toscano (08:23):
Hearing Father Martin describe his pilgrimage
to Lazarus's tomb brought me back
to my own moments of unbinding, when I
had to ask myself, what do I need to leave
behind in my own life?
It was shame and fear, the
grave.
Clothes that kept me bound for so long.
(08:50):
Father Martin's reflection reminds us that
resurrection starts with those small, brave
steps of letting go.
>> James Martin (09:03):
All of us come before God unfree in
some way. All of us have things that we need
to let die, to follow God more freely, to
love more deeply, and to become the people
God desires us to be. And
God has an intense desire to free us, to
offer us new life. How can we know this?
(09:24):
Freedom is the constant desire of God for
humanity throughout both the Old and New
Testaments, throughout what theologians call
salvation history. In the Old Testament, God
leads the people of Israel out of slavery into freedom,
continually willing their freedom, always
asking them to choose freedom. And in the
New Testament, the constant movement of Jesus
(09:46):
is freeing people from sin, from illness,
from isolation, from despair and from
darkness.
Freedom rings through Jesus public
ministry like a bell, and he
excoriates those who oppose this opening
(10:07):
freedom that leads to the flourishing of human
beings. When Jesus heals a woman
who has been physically Bent over for 18 years,
he doesn't say you are healed, but you are set
free from your ailment.
The word used in Greek is from the same
Greek root that Jesus uses in his
(10:27):
words to
lusate altan, be loosed,
be untied, be freed.
Jesus desire to free people runs
through his public ministry until it reaches
its ultimate climax in his
untying Lazarus from the bonds of death
(10:48):
and at ah, Jesus own resurrection, the Father would
free the Son from his bonds of death.
We cannot doubt God's desire to free us from
our burdens, our tombs, our grave
cloths, to give us new life. The
Gospel story of the raising of Lazarus initially may
have seemed far removed from your experience,
(11:10):
but I hope now you can see how it invites
you to freedom and how the new life that
was given to Lazarus is being offered to you.
>> Peterson Toscano (11:34):
Coming up, uh, Ollie, the creator of the
YouTube channel Quake it up, shares his thoughtful
questions and concerns about the Bible.
As a Quaker who is also a Bible geek,
I welcome this kind of open, curious
conversation, especially from someone working to
make Quaker faith and practice more accessible.
(11:55):
Before we hear from Ollie, though, I want to share a new
resource from Friends Publishing. Starting
this year, Friends Journal introduced a
quarterly Bible study column. Each
column invites Friends to reflect on Bible
passages that have inspired or challenged them.
Not only can you read the Bible Study column, you can
(12:15):
contribute to it. We welcome your insights,
your stories and your questions. Visit
friendsjournal.org
Bible study to learn
more and to submit your reflections. Their
website again, friendsjournal.org
Bible study
(12:48):
based.
In the UK, Ollie, a, uh, fellow.
Quaker, produces accessible, thoughtful
videos and podcasts about the faith and practice
of liberal Quakerism Ali's channel
introduces newcomers to the Religious Society of
Friends. He also invites seasoned
friends into deep conversation about theology,
history and spiritual practice.
(13:11):
You will find a vibrant discussion in the
comments section of each video.
In our conversation, Ali opened up about the
limits of his biblical knowledge and the questions that
led him to reach out to me. Together,
we explore how Quakers grapple with
difficult Bible passages. How the
(13:32):
texts have been used to harm and
to heal, and about spiritual authority
no longer centered in scripture.
>> Ollie (13:43):
The reason why I wanted this conversation to happen
was because I've been doing this series on
Quakers in the Bible, which is good for me as well,
because I'm still learning. I wasn't raised reading the Bible
or anything. I haven't studied it, um, academically or anything.
But I think I've got to a point where I've
said all I feel able to say. And, um, especially what we're
(14:04):
looking to talk about today is the difficult things in the Bible
and the idea of people who may feel
excluded by the Bible and those difficult questions
which I don't feel able to answer.
Many people who feel alienated by institutional
religion also feel distanced from the Bible. Where do you
suggest they might begin if they're seeking healing or
affirmation in Scripture?
>> Peterson Toscano (14:26):
I think the early Quakers would say, don't
look to the Bible.
>> Ollie (14:31):
Mhm.
>> Peterson Toscano (14:31):
For inspiration and healing. That's an outward
thing. Right. We are looking to
the light, to the seed, and to settle
into that silent place and to listen.
Now, that voice may come at times through a Bible
passage. It could come through a friend, it could come
through a bird that you're watching out your window. Uh, the
Spirit moves in all kinds of ways, or however you want to
(14:54):
refer to this wonder, this access that
we have. That's one of the big problems. When
people go to the Bible looking for healing, looking
for inspiration, you're not looking in the right
direction. We need to look to the seed
within us. Um, that's a hard process
and that's why there aren't a lot of Quakers, because it takes
(15:14):
a lot of work to do that.
>> Ollie (15:16):
Yeah.
>> Peterson Toscano (15:17):
That healing, it comes from
being affirmed by the Spirit and also
it comes from healthy relationships. Because so often
when we need to be healed, it's because we've not had healthy
relationships and we've been harmed. That's the other thing that
Quakers can offer is a place of, of loving
fellowship of, of care and compassion.
(15:39):
And that's why I think it's important for Quakers to meet not
just for Sunday worship, but for meals
and for time together, we need to
gather together for lots of reasons and, and
healing happens through those relationships.
>> Ollie (15:54):
I think the reason why that question came around is because
I feel that a lot of people look to the Bible
as a source of authority. And if
it's true, it has to be in the Bible somewhere. So if Quakerism is
true, then it's got to be in the Bible. People reach out
for these worldly things in
order to get a sense of spirituality.
(16:15):
Quakerism ultimately rejects that notion
that we can cling to these worldly things or these,
these physical things. And actually it's all about
this inward meeting and transformation and
so on. But I think this is such a hard lesson to learn.
>> Peterson Toscano (16:30):
Mhm.
>> Ollie (16:30):
I think people can look to the Bible for that. Early Friends are all about
that. The difficulty, I think, for many people, especially if they've come from
other Christian denominations, is to let go of the
Bible in a way. Not necessarily because it's,
it's worthless, but because that's not no
longer the focus. The focus is this inward teacher
that we listen to in meetings. Would you agree?
>> Peterson Toscano (16:51):
I do. And I think what's challenging is, you know, a lot of
early Friends writings were in response to
attacks. And so you have Barclay's apology where
he's not saying, I'm sorry, it's apologetics
to basically defend the faith,
defend Quakerism. And so he had to do it within this
context that everyone was talking about the Bible. So he used
(17:12):
the Bible often to defend it. Today
most people of, uh, faith are not challenging
how we believe or worship, they're challenging our
politics. Often that or how
can you be Quaker? And like some people are atheist
and some people are Jewish. We have to even work with
that, uh, within our own communities. The Bible is
(17:33):
an incredibly privileged book in our society.
We have laws that are still on.
The books and have historically been on.
Books because of the Bible. The US
policy in Israel is based
on portions of the Book of Revelation
and the Bible. Uh, you can't have foreign policy
based on superstitions and fears.
(17:55):
One of the things is to de center the power of the Bible
in our discourse and to recognize it is not the
final authority, even though bullies use
it as their authority to oppress other
people. I don't think that it's
appropriate for me to similarly
use the Bible to give people
authority to be kind to each other. We don't need
(18:18):
an ancient text to tell us that. We have other sources
that are much more reliable that we know.
We know this is how you treat.
>> Ollie (18:26):
A person I agree,
absolutely. Yeah. We understand now
that the Bible isn't the be all and end all. I think after watching, you know, my
other videos on that, I have stated this and, uh, but I think we're
seeing the reason why now played out.
But other stories in the Bible that you think
overlooked, been misinterpreted,
maybe that could be actually empowering for people who have
(18:48):
been marginalized by society for whatever
reason. Gender, sexuality, race, class.
And how can we do that?
>> Peterson Toscano (18:56):
There's a very famous story in the book of John
about, um, some siblings, Mary, Martha
and Lazarus. And it's famous because
Lazarus gets sick. They send word to Jesus, he
doesn't come, even though he could. Lazarus
dies. He's been dead for four days. And Jesus raises
him from the dead. It's a very meaningful story to me.
And in it you have Mary and Martha, these two
(19:18):
sisters who are often kind of shown in different lights.
There's other stories where they show up. There's one famous
one where Mary is sitting at the feet of Jesus
and Martha's preparing all the food because you know
these guys, they gotta eat, right? And Martha
complains to Jesus and says, hey, how come my sister's
not helping me? You know, why is she not in the kitchen?
(19:39):
And Jesus says, no, no, your sister's fine. She's chosen
the right thing. And I've heard so many
ministers use this
incorrectly, I believe, uh, to ask the question, are you a, uh,
Mary or a Martha? If you talk to any
American Christian who's been to an evangelical church, they've heard the
sermon. Are you a Mary or a Martha? Martha's a
busybody. She's like too busy to sit still and
(20:01):
do anything. While Mary chose the right thing,
she's sitting still. And even for Quaker, like, yeah, sit still,
be still. Okay, first off,
the Quaker, meaning the church, would fall apart without the
Marthas.
>> Ollie (20:13):
True. All right.
>> Peterson Toscano (20:14):
The whole thing would fall apart. Martha's are keeping the
wheels on and keeping the thing going. And
secondly,
Mary is doing something that was culturally
offensive and inappropriate. She was sitting at the
feet of a rabbi with his male disciples.
That was a place that was exclusively for
(20:35):
men. And she was not
submissive. She was quite bold to
say, no, I want to learn. And Martha was
trying to enforce gender roles and saying, no, no, no,
your place is helping me prepare food. And
Jesus affirmed, no women can learn.
Mary, you're in the right place. I love that story
and I think it's often misinterpreted.
>> Ollie (20:56):
I love it too. Yeah, I don't know if you know. But did Margaret felt use
that at all when she was talking about, uh, women's preaching justified
or anything like that? I'm not sure if, you know, oh.
>> Peterson Toscano (21:04):
That'D be a good thing to look at.
>> Ollie (21:07):
It would be.
>> Peterson Toscano (21:08):
I bet if anyone did, Margaret Fel would have seen that.
>> Ollie (21:10):
Yeah. I'd be remiss to miss out on the
opportunity as a, as a fellow Quaker
content creator, to talk about Quakers today
and maybe about what that
journey's been like in terms of producing
that and obviously presenting that. And
what have been some of your experiences with Quakers
today?
>> Peterson Toscano (21:34):
Uh, my experiences with Quakers today? Well, you can hear
my answer and a lot more in the full conversation
I had with Ollie. We talked about
the Bible and Bible stories for over an hour.
That episode is available now. To watch it and
other episodes, search for Quake it up on
YouTube. Each episode is also available
(21:54):
as a podcast. You can follow Quake it up
on bluesky and Instagram.
In this episode, you also heard from Father James
Martin. He's the author of Come
the Raising of Lazarus and the Promise of
Jesus Great Greatest Miracle. His
book is available at your local bookstore or online.
(22:15):
He also hosts the Spiritual Life
podcast with recent guests like Stephen
Colbert, Whoopi Goldberg and Pete Buttigieg.
You can find more from Father Martin on the
America Media YouTube channel
and@america magazine.org
Many thanks to my guest, and thanks to
(22:36):
Gail Whiffin, Sweet Miche, and Martin Kelly for
their help with this episode. And thank you for
joining me for Quakers Today. If you enjoyed
the show and you listen on Apple Podcast or on
Spotify, please take a moment to leave a
rating or write a short review. It
actually helps other Friends and Seekers find us.
(22:56):
And thanks to everyone who's been sharing Quakers Today
with your Friends and on social media. You may even want
to add us to a meeting newsletter to help spread the
word. I'd love that.
This episode was written and produced by me, Peterson
Centoscano. Our music comes from
epidemicsound.com
(23:19):
Season 5 of, uh, Quakers Today
premieres Tuesday, September 16,
2025, and I'm pleased to announce that this
upcoming season is sponsored by Quaker the American
Friends Service Committee and Friends
Fiduciary. Thank you so much for your ongoing
support.
As we begin the fifth season, we're inviting
(23:41):
listeners who are familiar with Quaker ways to
answer this question. What's
your favorite Quaker term or phrase?
Something that's common among Friends but might
sound odd or confusing to others. I
actually asked this question to Ollie and he's going to share his
answer in next episode, you can leave us a
(24:01):
voicemail with your name and the town where you live.
The number to call is
317-QUAKERS.
That's
317-782-5377.
If you're calling from outside the U.S. add
one. You can also send us an
email if you're afraid of leaving a voicemail, I get it.
(24:23):
Or answer on our social media accounts. All these
contact details are in our show
notes@quakerstoday.org
Again, the question I'd love you to answer
is, what's your favorite Quaker term
or phrase? Something common among Friends
but strange to outsiders. Tune in
next month and you'll hear the answers, including Ollie's
(24:45):
thank you, friend. Until next time,
hold fast to what brings you light.
In this episode of Quakers Today, we Consider
the Bible.
Hi, I'm, um, Peterson Centiscano, and this is Quakers Today,
a podcast from Friends Publishing
Corporation. As a Quaker who's
also a Bible scholar, I'm often asked how
Quakers view the Hebrew and Christian
(00:22):
scriptures. This episode won't
answer all your questions, but it will provide
a jumping off point. I'll also share
resources to help you explore more.
One of my guests today is the host of the
popular YouTube channel Quake it Up.
Ollie and I have been talking about the
(00:43):
Bible, its place in modern Quaker practice,
its violence, and how people like me who've been
hurt by weaponized scripture, find our way
back to it. Or not.
But first, you'll hear my conversation with a
Jesuit priest, Father James Martin, the
editor at large for, um, America A, ah, National
(01:04):
Catholic magazine. He's written and
edited over 15 books, including
Come the Raising of
the Promise of Jesus, Greatest Miracle
Alone and with pilgrim groups. Father James has
visited what is believed to be the. The tomb
of Lazarus, located in
(01:24):
Palestinian territory. I have
long been fascinated with this Lazarus story,
so I was thrilled to have this conversation.
>> James Martin (01:35):
Bethany, which is outside of Jerusalem, now
called Al Azariah. Very beautifully, the place
of Lazarus still
retained in the. In the Arabic, the place of Lazarus
is a place that you can visit. And so I wanted to show the reader who
might not be able to go there, what is it like to go into the
tomb? What is it like to see the area around
(01:56):
it? When I first visited, uh,
Israel on a pilgrimage to the Holy Land to do research
for a book called Jesus A Pilgrimage, I was talking to
another Jesuit priest. And he said, well, where do you want to go? And I said, well, you
know, the Sea of Galilee, Church of the Holy Sepulcher,
Gethsemane, all the places that people would want to see.
And he said, what about Lazarus's tomb? I said,
lazarus's tomb? Well, you can visit that. Like, where is.
(02:18):
Where even is that? He said, it's outside Jerusalem again
in this place called Al Azariah, which I just find. Very
beautiful. Place of Lazarus. That's what it says on the bus,
you know, when you travel there. And so,
um, I went
now, there weren't many people there. And I think one of the reasons is
(02:38):
that it is in Palestinian territory. And
so I think people have this idea that it is
dangerous or hard to get to or inaccessible or
whatever. And it is, you know, it certainly does
not have as many tourists or pilgrims
as the other sites do. It's been venerated since the
earliest days. Of the church. So people think this is the place.
You go down this staircase, this stone
(03:01):
staircase, and you're in this kind of cavity, this sort of
stone cavity, um, where there are kind of niches in
the wall. I have pictures in the book,
and it's really powerful. And that was the place where I really
sort of started to think, all right, what do I want to leave behind in the
tomb? How can I hear God calling
me to new life? For me, that was the connection
(03:21):
between the story that happened 2,000 years ago and a
story that's relevant to all of us today.
When we started to do pilgrimages of the Holy Land through
American media, where I work, I thought, well, I
definitely want to take them to Lazarus Tomb. And I thought, you know,
okay, we'll see how people respond to it. And people
were. People would come out in tears because
(03:43):
I think the kind of. The sort of physical
pilgrimage down into this tomb, which is. It's a little bit
dangerous and slippery, as I say in the book. And being
alone in this kind of quiet, dark,
literally sepulchral place, and then coming
out into the light is really powerful. So I think
a lot of sort of spiritual experiences are connected to kind
(04:03):
of physical experiences, too. So walking
pilgrimage, going to a place, and to kind of
go down and then come up to come forth was
really powerful for people. And so that's one of the things
that convinced me to write the book, basically, was
seeing how much effect it had on people.
>> Peterson Toscano (04:22):
When we talk about Lazarus, we talk about
freedom. But here's the thing.
Freedom is disruptive. It
upends what people expect. And
that's something Jesus seemed to appreciate.
Think about Mary and Martha.
>> James Martin (04:41):
Yeah, so Martha and Mary are huge parts of the story.
And for those who don't know the story, when they send word
to Jesus that their brother Lazarus is ill,
whom they call very touchingly, he whom you love. Jesus, uh,
waits a few days.
When Martha and Mary greet him, uh, outside of
Bethany, before he goes to the tomb, they both say to him, word
(05:04):
for word, lord, if you had been here, our brother would not have
died. And it's very blunt. I mean, I think it
sort of reminds us of the need for
honesty with God in prayer. And, you know, their
characters just kind of come out. They are really strong
characters. Even though they only have a few lines in
the Gospels to speak, they're strong, vivid,
and memorable characters.
(05:27):
A lot of New Testament scholars say that when we know the names of
people outside of the disciples, so Martha, Mary, and Lazarus,
we can be sure that These were people known to the early
church.
>> Peterson Toscano (05:39):
There's that famous story where Martha is working
hard, preparing food, making sure
everything's.
In order,
while Mary, well, she just.
Sits at the feet of Jesus. And Martha gets
frustrated. She says to Jesus, uh, make her help me.
And instead of saying, you're right, Martha,
(06:00):
women should be in the kitchen. Jesus says,
mary has chosen what is
better. And a lot of sermons that I've heard
focus on that, saying we should be more like Mary
and less like Martha. But let's be clear about
something. Without the Marthas of this world,
nothing would get done. Okay?
(06:20):
Church doesn't happen without the Marthas. Running
Sunday school, setting up chairs, cleaning up
after coffee hour. And Mary, oh,
she wasn't being submissive. She
was bold. In that culture, the
spot at the teacher's feet was reserved for
male disciples. Mary took that
place. She stepped out of line. She
(06:43):
bent the gender rules.
And Jesus didn't scold her.
He affirmed her.
If anyone ever tells you that queerness,
that gender expansiveness, that stepping outside of
traditional roles is somehow ungodly, remind
them that Jesus had a habit of
(07:06):
lifting up the ones who broke the rules. He
looked at Mary and essentially said, yeah, you
belong here.
Lazarus's story reminds us that art can
breathe life into ancient text,
(07:26):
helping us see them and ourselves in a
new light.
>> James Martin (07:31):
I'm just fascinated by the way that Lazarus has so many
resonances in culture and in the arts. He
is a consistent theme of artists.
I thought it was also basically kind of fun to put
images in the book. I, uh, quoted Alice in
Wonderland. What's the use of a book without pictures?
To be able to see that and to see how different artists treated the
(07:51):
story. Really helps us to understand what was going on in
their times. I think it's
just interesting to see also what artists like
playwrights and poets and novelists have done with the story.
For example, in a lot of the stories, fictional, uh,
the sort of fictionalization, uh, of Lazarus's story,
you have Lazarus not wanting to come back from the dead,
(08:13):
which I found kind of charming and funny,
but then also kind of sort of interesting. Like,
what would it have meant for him to come back from the dead?
>> Peterson Toscano (08:23):
Hearing Father Martin describe his pilgrimage
to Lazarus's tomb brought me back
to my own moments of unbinding, when I
had to ask myself, what do I need to leave
behind in my own life?
It was shame and fear, the
grave.
Clothes that kept me bound for so long.
(08:50):
Father Martin's reflection reminds us that
resurrection starts with those small, brave
steps of letting go.
>> James Martin (09:03):
All of us come before God unfree in
some way. All of us have things that we need
to let die, to follow God more freely, to
love more deeply, and to become the people
God desires us to be. And
God has an intense desire to free us, to
offer us new life. How can we know this?
(09:24):
Freedom is the constant desire of God for
humanity throughout both the Old and New
Testaments, throughout what theologians call
salvation history. In the Old Testament, God
leads the people of Israel out of slavery into freedom,
continually willing their freedom, always
asking them to choose freedom. And in the
New Testament, the constant movement of Jesus
(09:46):
is freeing people from sin, from illness,
from isolation, from despair and from
darkness.
Freedom rings through Jesus public
ministry like a bell, and he
excoriates those who oppose this opening
(10:07):
freedom that leads to the flourishing of human
beings. When Jesus heals a woman
who has been physically Bent over for 18 years,
he doesn't say you are healed, but you are set
free from your ailment.
The word used in Greek is from the same
Greek root that Jesus uses in his
(10:27):
words to
lusate altan, be loosed,
be untied, be freed.
Jesus desire to free people runs
through his public ministry until it reaches
its ultimate climax in his
untying Lazarus from the bonds of death
(10:48):
and at ah, Jesus own resurrection, the Father would
free the Son from his bonds of death.
We cannot doubt God's desire to free us from
our burdens, our tombs, our grave
cloths, to give us new life. The
Gospel story of the raising of Lazarus initially may
have seemed far removed from your experience,
(11:10):
but I hope now you can see how it invites
you to freedom and how the new life that
was given to Lazarus is being offered to you.
>> Peterson Toscano (11:34):
Coming up, uh, Ollie, the creator of the
YouTube channel Quake it up, shares his thoughtful
questions and concerns about the Bible.
As a Quaker who is also a Bible geek,
I welcome this kind of open, curious
conversation, especially from someone working to
make Quaker faith and practice more accessible.
(11:55):
Before we hear from Ollie, though, I want to share a new
resource from Friends Publishing. Starting
this year, Friends Journal introduced a
quarterly Bible study column. Each
column invites Friends to reflect on Bible
passages that have inspired or challenged them.
Not only can you read the Bible Study column, you can
(12:15):
contribute to it. We welcome your insights,
your stories and your questions. Visit
friendsjournal.org
Bible study to learn
more and to submit your reflections. Their
website again, friendsjournal.org
Bible study
(12:48):
based.
In the UK, Ollie, a, uh, fellow.
Quaker, produces accessible, thoughtful
videos and podcasts about the faith and practice
of liberal Quakerism Ali's channel
introduces newcomers to the Religious Society of
Friends. He also invites seasoned
friends into deep conversation about theology,
history and spiritual practice.
(13:11):
You will find a vibrant discussion in the
comments section of each video.
In our conversation, Ali opened up about the
limits of his biblical knowledge and the questions that
led him to reach out to me. Together,
we explore how Quakers grapple with
difficult Bible passages. How the
(13:32):
texts have been used to harm and
to heal, and about spiritual authority
no longer centered in scripture.
>> Ollie (13:43):
The reason why I wanted this conversation to happen
was because I've been doing this series on
Quakers in the Bible, which is good for me as well,
because I'm still learning. I wasn't raised reading the Bible
or anything. I haven't studied it, um, academically or anything.
But I think I've got to a point where I've
said all I feel able to say. And, um, especially what we're
(14:04):
looking to talk about today is the difficult things in the Bible
and the idea of people who may feel
excluded by the Bible and those difficult questions
which I don't feel able to answer.
Many people who feel alienated by institutional
religion also feel distanced from the Bible. Where do you
suggest they might begin if they're seeking healing or
affirmation in Scripture?
>> Peterson Toscano (14:26):
I think the early Quakers would say, don't
look to the Bible.
>> Ollie (14:31):
Mhm.
>> Peterson Toscano (14:31):
For inspiration and healing. That's an outward
thing. Right. We are looking to
the light, to the seed, and to settle
into that silent place and to listen.
Now, that voice may come at times through a Bible
passage. It could come through a friend, it could come
through a bird that you're watching out your window. Uh, the
Spirit moves in all kinds of ways, or however you want to
(14:54):
refer to this wonder, this access that
we have. That's one of the big problems. When
people go to the Bible looking for healing, looking
for inspiration, you're not looking in the right
direction. We need to look to the seed
within us. Um, that's a hard process
and that's why there aren't a lot of Quakers, because it takes
(15:14):
a lot of work to do that.
>> Ollie (15:16):
Yeah.
>> Peterson Toscano (15:17):
That healing, it comes from
being affirmed by the Spirit and also
it comes from healthy relationships. Because so often
when we need to be healed, it's because we've not had healthy
relationships and we've been harmed. That's the other thing that
Quakers can offer is a place of, of loving
fellowship of, of care and compassion.
(15:39):
And that's why I think it's important for Quakers to meet not
just for Sunday worship, but for meals
and for time together, we need to
gather together for lots of reasons and, and
healing happens through those relationships.
>> Ollie (15:54):
I think the reason why that question came around is because
I feel that a lot of people look to the Bible
as a source of authority. And if
it's true, it has to be in the Bible somewhere. So if Quakerism is
true, then it's got to be in the Bible. People reach out
for these worldly things in
order to get a sense of spirituality.
(16:15):
Quakerism ultimately rejects that notion
that we can cling to these worldly things or these,
these physical things. And actually it's all about
this inward meeting and transformation and
so on. But I think this is such a hard lesson to learn.
>> Peterson Toscano (16:30):
Mhm.
>> Ollie (16:30):
I think people can look to the Bible for that. Early Friends are all about
that. The difficulty, I think, for many people, especially if they've come from
other Christian denominations, is to let go of the
Bible in a way. Not necessarily because it's,
it's worthless, but because that's not no
longer the focus. The focus is this inward teacher
that we listen to in meetings. Would you agree?
>> Peterson Toscano (16:51):
I do. And I think what's challenging is, you know, a lot of
early Friends writings were in response to
attacks. And so you have Barclay's apology where
he's not saying, I'm sorry, it's apologetics
to basically defend the faith,
defend Quakerism. And so he had to do it within this
context that everyone was talking about the Bible. So he used
(17:12):
the Bible often to defend it. Today
most people of, uh, faith are not challenging
how we believe or worship, they're challenging our
politics. Often that or how
can you be Quaker? And like some people are atheist
and some people are Jewish. We have to even work with
that, uh, within our own communities. The Bible is
(17:33):
an incredibly privileged book in our society.
We have laws that are still on.
The books and have historically been on.
Books because of the Bible. The US
policy in Israel is based
on portions of the Book of Revelation
and the Bible. Uh, you can't have foreign policy
based on superstitions and fears.
(17:55):
One of the things is to de center the power of the Bible
in our discourse and to recognize it is not the
final authority, even though bullies use
it as their authority to oppress other
people. I don't think that it's
appropriate for me to similarly
use the Bible to give people
authority to be kind to each other. We don't need
(18:18):
an ancient text to tell us that. We have other sources
that are much more reliable that we know.
We know this is how you treat.
>> Ollie (18:26):
A person I agree,
absolutely. Yeah. We understand now
that the Bible isn't the be all and end all. I think after watching, you know, my
other videos on that, I have stated this and, uh, but I think we're
seeing the reason why now played out.
But other stories in the Bible that you think
overlooked, been misinterpreted,
maybe that could be actually empowering for people who have
(18:48):
been marginalized by society for whatever
reason. Gender, sexuality, race, class.
And how can we do that?
>> Peterson Toscano (18:56):
There's a very famous story in the book of John
about, um, some siblings, Mary, Martha
and Lazarus. And it's famous because
Lazarus gets sick. They send word to Jesus, he
doesn't come, even though he could. Lazarus
dies. He's been dead for four days. And Jesus raises
him from the dead. It's a very meaningful story to me.
And in it you have Mary and Martha, these two
(19:18):
sisters who are often kind of shown in different lights.
There's other stories where they show up. There's one famous
one where Mary is sitting at the feet of Jesus
and Martha's preparing all the food because you know
these guys, they gotta eat, right? And Martha
complains to Jesus and says, hey, how come my sister's
not helping me? You know, why is she not in the kitchen?
(19:39):
And Jesus says, no, no, your sister's fine. She's chosen
the right thing. And I've heard so many
ministers use this
incorrectly, I believe, uh, to ask the question, are you a, uh,
Mary or a Martha? If you talk to any
American Christian who's been to an evangelical church, they've heard the
sermon. Are you a Mary or a Martha? Martha's a
busybody. She's like too busy to sit still and
(20:01):
do anything. While Mary chose the right thing,
she's sitting still. And even for Quaker, like, yeah, sit still,
be still. Okay, first off,
the Quaker, meaning the church, would fall apart without the
Marthas.
>> Ollie (20:13):
True. All right.
>> Peterson Toscano (20:14):
The whole thing would fall apart. Martha's are keeping the
wheels on and keeping the thing going. And
secondly,
Mary is doing something that was culturally
offensive and inappropriate. She was sitting at the
feet of a rabbi with his male disciples.
That was a place that was exclusively for
(20:35):
men. And she was not
submissive. She was quite bold to
say, no, I want to learn. And Martha was
trying to enforce gender roles and saying, no, no, no,
your place is helping me prepare food. And
Jesus affirmed, no women can learn.
Mary, you're in the right place. I love that story
and I think it's often misinterpreted.
>> Ollie (20:56):
I love it too. Yeah, I don't know if you know. But did Margaret felt use
that at all when she was talking about, uh, women's preaching justified
or anything like that? I'm not sure if, you know, oh.
>> Peterson Toscano (21:04):
That'D be a good thing to look at.
>> Ollie (21:07):
It would be.
>> Peterson Toscano (21:08):
I bet if anyone did, Margaret Fel would have seen that.
>> Ollie (21:10):
Yeah. I'd be remiss to miss out on the
opportunity as a, as a fellow Quaker
content creator, to talk about Quakers today
and maybe about what that
journey's been like in terms of producing
that and obviously presenting that. And
what have been some of your experiences with Quakers
today?
>> Peterson Toscano (21:34):
Uh, my experiences with Quakers today? Well, you can hear
my answer and a lot more in the full conversation
I had with Ollie. We talked about
the Bible and Bible stories for over an hour.
That episode is available now. To watch it and
other episodes, search for Quake it up on
YouTube. Each episode is also available
(21:54):
as a podcast. You can follow Quake it up
on bluesky and Instagram.
In this episode, you also heard from Father James
Martin. He's the author of Come
the Raising of Lazarus and the Promise of
Jesus Great Greatest Miracle. His
book is available at your local bookstore or online.
(22:15):
He also hosts the Spiritual Life
podcast with recent guests like Stephen
Colbert, Whoopi Goldberg and Pete Buttigieg.
You can find more from Father Martin on the
America Media YouTube channel
and@america magazine.org
Many thanks to my guest, and thanks to
(22:36):
Gail Whiffin, Sweet Miche, and Martin Kelly for
their help with this episode. And thank you for
joining me for Quakers Today. If you enjoyed
the show and you listen on Apple Podcast or on
Spotify, please take a moment to leave a
rating or write a short review. It
actually helps other Friends and Seekers find us.
(22:56):
And thanks to everyone who's been sharing Quakers Today
with your Friends and on social media. You may even want
to add us to a meeting newsletter to help spread the
word. I'd love that.
This episode was written and produced by me, Peterson
Centoscano. Our music comes from
epidemicsound.com
(23:19):
Season 5 of, uh, Quakers Today
premieres Tuesday, September 16,
2025, and I'm pleased to announce that this
upcoming season is sponsored by Quaker the American
Friends Service Committee and Friends
Fiduciary. Thank you so much for your ongoing
support.
As we begin the fifth season, we're inviting
(23:41):
listeners who are familiar with Quaker ways to
answer this question. What's
your favorite Quaker term or phrase?
Something that's common among Friends but might
sound odd or confusing to others. I
actually asked this question to Ollie and he's going to share his
answer in next episode, you can leave us a
(24:01):
voicemail with your name and the town where you live.
The number to call is
317-QUAKERS.
That's
317-782-5377.
If you're calling from outside the U.S. add
one. You can also send us an
email if you're afraid of leaving a voicemail, I get it.
(24:23):
Or answer on our social media accounts. All these
contact details are in our show
notes@quakerstoday.org
Again, the question I'd love you to answer
is, what's your favorite Quaker term
or phrase? Something common among Friends
but strange to outsiders. Tune in
next month and you'll hear the answers, including Ollie's
(24:45):
thank you, friend. Until next time,
hold fast to what brings you light.
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