Reckoning with Quaker Racism

In this episode of Quakers Today, we ask, “Who is a historical figure you admire but whose words or actions trouble you?”

Co-hosts Peterson Toscano (he/him) and Miche McCall (they/them) discuss the complex legacies of two notable Quakers: George Fox and Richard Nixon. 

George Fox

Johanna Jackson and Naveed Moeed are a part of this year's cohort of the Quaker Coalition for Uprooting Racism. They co-authored the Friends Journal article George Fox Was a Racist: How do Fox’s writings on slavery impact Quakers today? to explore Fox’s legacy on his 400th birthday. 

Johanna and Naveed discuss how George Fox, a revered Quaker founder, held and expressed pro-slavery views. Fox's writings showed his alignment with the status quo of the time, defending the institution of slavery rather than challenging it. The authors explore how contemporary Quakers cannot undo the harm caused by historical figures like George Fox but can address it through acts of reparation. They also stress the importance of facing Quaker history honestly, recognizing the patterns of oppression that have persisted, and striving to transform behaviors and systems that perpetuate inequality and injustice today.

Naveed says, 

Kintsugi is the art of repairing something that is broken with a gold powder that is combined with an adhesive. And what it does is it doesn't repair in the way that we traditionally think of repair…What we need as Quakers is a form of Kintsugi, where we don't choose to paper the past, or repair it, or replace it or fix it so that it never happened. We need to acknowledge that it happened and how it happened, and where the break occurred, and then put some gold where the break was to bridge the gap.

Johanna Jackson is a white Friend and member of Three Rivers Meeting (New England Yearly Meeting), a group reclaiming Quaker practice for today’s time. Her ministry is Forward in Faithfulness. 

Naveed Moeed is a British-born Pakistani and a Muslim-Quaker member of Chapel Hill (N.C.) Meeting. He is part of the American Theatre Critics Association and a semi-professional photographer. You can find his work at fractalsedge.net. 

Richard Nixon

Larry Ingle describes how Richard Nixon, the 37th President of the United States, grew up in a Quaker household. However, Larry points out that Nixon's political career often contrasts these principles.

Larry Ingle is the author of Nixon’s First Cover-up: The Religious Life of a Quaker President, a biography of Nixon's religious ideologies and background, and First Among Friends: George Fox & the Creation of Quakerism. He retired from the History Department at the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga and now lives in Chattanooga, Tennessee.

This discussion features an excerpt from the video Was Richard Nixon a Quaker? See more videos like this on the QuakerSpeak YouTube channel or at QuakerSpeak.org. 

Reviews and Recommendations

Quakers in Politics by Carl Abbott and Margery Post Abbott describes a Quaker approach to politics and encourages Friends to leverage our unique willingness to listen and seek common ground. The book is part of the

Episode Transcript

Miche McCall (00:00):
On this episode of Quakers Today, we ask, Who is a

(00:03):
historical figure you admire,but his words or actions trouble
you?"

Peterson Toscano (00:12):
We consider the lives of two famous
breakers, George Fox and RichardNixon. And Mitch tells us about
the new book, Quakers inPolitics. I'm Peterson Toscano,

Miche McCall (00:22):
and I'm Miche McCall. This is season three,
episode four of the QuakersToday podcast, a project of
Friends Publishing Corporation.

Peterson Toscano (00:30):
This season of Quakers Today is sponsored by
the American Friends ServiceCommittee.
The June/July issue of FriendsJournal includes articles about
Quaker founder George Fox, andwhat Quakers Today have to say
about Fox on his 400th birthday.

Miche McCall (00:54):
For the issue, Johanna Jackson and Naveen Moeed
co wrote the article, George FoxWas a Racist.

Johanna Jackson (01:01):
I can see how people would be surprised when
they read the title of ourarticle, but I think it's
important to recognize ourconflicted history rather than
turn away from it.

Miche McCall (01:12):
Johanna and Naveed convincingly outline that George
Fox was pro slavery.

Johanna Jackson (01:21):
"While in Barbados in 1671, George Fox had
cause to write a letter to theauthorities, which has been
titled for the governor and hiscounsel and assembly. In this
letter, Fox assured the governorthat Quakers had no interest in
disrupting the order of things.He wrote, 'Another slander and

(01:41):
lie they have cast upon us isnamely, that we should teach
Black people to rebel.' He saidthat this was a thing, 'we do
utterly abhor and detest in infrom our hearts,' He further
defended, 'The Lord knows it,who is the searcher of all
hearts and knows all things andso can witness and testify for
us that this is a most egregiousand abominable untruth. In some

(02:05):
ways.; Fox could not have gonefurther beside himself with the
status quo.
When Naveed and I were in theQuaker Coalition for Uprooting
Racism's cohort meeting on Zoom,and we each shared back what we
learned. One person said, "I didnot know that the rot went so
deep." The evidence is reallyclear. He told enslaved people

(02:30):
to be obedient, to be meek, toobey their masters and to become
Quaker.
Fox told enslaved people not tosteal, there seems to be
something so screwy, so toppledin on itself, about telling
someone not to steal when theirlives had been stolen from them.

(02:50):
And then I kept reading hisjournals after he left the
island of Barbados, and he goesto what's now New England. I
kept waiting for the part thathe would express sadness, or
remorse, or grief andencountering such like a system
that harms so many people. Andthat just didn't show up in his
journal. Never. I wondered, whyis this a story? I don't know.

(03:15):
Or is it one of those stories Idid know in some part of my
brain I blocked out. Like forme, I blocked out the fact that
William Penn was an enslaver. Ittook a little while to integrate
that sentence with William Penn.I had some resistance to taking
that in. It can be uncomfortableto admit that George Fox was a
racist. I think it's importantto recognize our conflicted

(03:42):
history rather than turn awayfrom it.

Peterson Toscano (03:51):
I didn't want to believe that George Fox, with
all his enlightenment, and didnot recognize and renounced the
horrors of chattel slavery. Readthe article to see for yourself
the overwhelming evidence of hisracism. Quakers have a founder
with a major flaw.

Miche McCall (04:16):
Naveed points out firm has occurred and continues
today.

Naveed Moeed (04:23):
We can't. We can't repair George Fox's harm, and we
can't repair even the harms thatQuakers are doing today. But
what can do is reparation whichis which is different from
repairing. It is a bomb afterthe fact it is a healing.

Miche McCall (04:46):
Someone listening might be thinking, "Okay, so
what? Here's another white manwho supported an oppressive
white supremacist colonialsystem."

Unknown (04:58):
When it comes to "So What? it is such a good
question. Because, well, I don'treally know how people receive
it. Everybody's brain isdifferent. But when I look back
at what we wrote the things thatstand out to me as a white
person, there's invitations tobe more humble, more observant,
more perceptive of what isactually going on.

Peterson Toscano (05:22):
So what now, what is next for us to do?

Unknown (05:26):
There isn't an answer, to "What next?" But there is the
idea that we have to keep going.If we keep going, and if we keep
querying, and if we keep testingand testing and testing, the
ideas and the notions that wehave now, and how they were
rooted in behaviors of the past,we can decide for ourselves,

(05:51):
what works and what doesn'twork. But it's not a one and
done process. We have to justkeep going. The idea of
continuous revelation is thatwhat is true in the now may not
be true in the future. And so wehave to continue to examine to

(06:14):
discern, to thresh, to test, todo those things that weren't
good up as greatness and keepchanging. Just keep going on and
keep changing.

Miche McCall (06:37):
Naveed clearly states that we cannot undo the
past and we must not erase it.

Unknown (06:44):
It's like that Japanese art form Kintsugi. Kintsugi is
the art of repairing somethingthat is broken with a gold
powder that is combined with anadhesive. And what it does is it
doesn't repair in the way thatwe traditionally think of
repair. For example, if I have abroken phone with a broken

(07:08):
screen, I can go and get itrepaired and have the screen
look like new. But what Kintsugidoes is it highlights where the
break was and create somethingnew in its place. There's
something equally treasured andequally beautiful. What we need
as Quakers is a form ofKintsugi, where we don't choose

(07:32):
to paper the past, or repair it,or replace, it or fix it so that
it never happened. We need toacknowledge that it happened and
how it happened and where thebreak occurred, and then put
some gold where the break was tobridge the gap.

Miche McCall (07:52):
We can commit to digging into Quaker history and
our current practices andstructures. We keep going and we
keep learning. We can alsoprovide a model for other groups
facing troubled leaders andquestionable pasts.

Unknown (08:08):
A key piece of what the Quaker Coalition for our
Uprooting Racism is teaching meto do is to notice patterns of
oppression or patterns offaithfulness and that just
think, how am I contributing toany of those? Where else do I
see those in my life? What do Ithink are the roots of this
pattern? I think it's reallystriking for a faith that values

(08:32):
equality. We have some hardconversations to do about how
that looks in our social spheresin our structure, the voices of
which prophets are embraced andwhich are shunned. I'm less
concerned with well, how do Ithink about George Fox now and
I'm more concerned with how canwe change the patterns that he

(08:54):
began and that is in some waycontinue?

Peterson Toscano (09:03):
Today, I see a lot of confusion over addressing
historical and contemporaryfigures who fail to meet
societal expectations. Thedefault is to cancel them. The
idea of canceling someonecommonly known as canceled
culture involves withdrawingsupport from public figures or
organizations after they've doneor said something objectionable,

(09:26):
or offensive. Historians in thepublic may reexamine the
contributions and actions ofhistorical figures.

Miche McCall (09:34):
How do we face history honestly, and live with
the discomforts of moralincongruity in heroes of old and
people today? How do we considerthe words and actions of people
like William Penn, anhistorically important Quaker
who enslaved people? How do wereevaluate the land where our
meetinghouses stand, knowingthat it may well be on stolen

(09:57):
land? What about when we asindividuals or groups fall
short?

Unknown (10:09):
If my life were judged in 400 years, what might people
notice for my life? That may bea good question for any person
to sit with? Is a disconcertingquestion and a call to
accountability. If someonejudged your life and 400 years,
what do you think they mightnotice?

Naveed Moeed (10:29):
George Fox was racist, and he perpetuated the
notion of slavery. Friendsreading this article may try to
argue way out of this, but theevidence is clear, and we should
embrace it. This is not to makeus complicit in perpetuating
this travesty. What we are askedto do as Quakers is understand
what it means to have leaders inour faith who are deeply flawed.

(10:51):
We should examine thosebehaviors and words of wisdom,
the way we do things in ourmeeting, or yearly meeting that
come from the way white folk didthings in the past. How can we
change them to ways that embraceeveryone? How can we change our
learned behavior to one that isjust for all?

Miche McCall (11:20):
That was Naveed Moeed and Johanna Jackson. They
co authored the article, "GeorgeFox was a Racist. How does that
impact Quakers Today"? You canread their article in the
June/July issue of FriendsJournal. There you will also
find a variety of reflections onGeorge Fox's history, Impact and
legacy. These articles are allavailable on friendsjournal.org.

Peterson Toscano (11:43):
Miche and I welcome your thoughts about the
article and our conversationwith the authors. Email us
podcast(@)friends journal.org.Or call our listener voicemail
line 317-Quakers.

Miche McCall (11:58):
Today as we explore the troubling aspects of
George Fox's legacy, sheddinglight on his racist attitudes,
despite his foundational role inQuakerism, we want to consider

(12:20):
another controversial figurewithin the Quaker community.
Richard Nixon. Wait?! RichardNixon? ,

Peterson Toscano (12:27):
Yearh, Richard Nixon. Richard Nixon, known for
his tumultuous presidency,infamous Watergate scandal, and
documented racist remarks.Nixon's life and actions have
often raised the question, "Washe truly a Quaker in practice
and belief?"

Miche McCall (12:47):
After Quaker historian Larry Engel wrote
George Fox's biography, FirstAmong Friends. He studied
Richard Nixon and his religion.He published the book "

Peterson Toscano (13:01):
Larry addresses the question, "Was
Richard Nixon a Quaker?"

Larry Ingle (13:12):
If Nixon had been sitting here, and you'd ask
Nixon that question, he wouldsay, I'm a Quaker because the
Quaker heritage of my mother,who was Hannah Milhouse. She
came to California, SouthernCalifornia from Indiana, and
they have a long Quaker heritagegoing back to the 17th century.
He never attended after hismother died in 67. Whether he's

(13:35):
a pacifist or not, whether helives by the testimonies are not
really not important, in hisview of things, apparently, at
least if you look at his memoir,in which he devotes three
paragraphs, out of whata 670page book, three paragraphs to
his religion, that's all heneeds to say.

(13:57):
I think that Richard Nixon sawthat the popular appeal of a
certain variety of Quakers wouldredound to his political
advantage. He did this becausethose actions in support of the
Underground Railroad inresisting the war, that those

(14:21):
positions would redown on in1959 and 1960 to his benefit.hey
would remind people that Quakerswere people who oppose slavery,
who not only oppose it, butaided slaves to escape. Quakers

(14:41):
have no creed. You can't goanywhere and say, Quakers
believed it. Therefore, Quakershave developed testimonies. The
most basic of these testimoniesis a testimony of integrity,
because that testimony assumesthat If we will do and be what

(15:03):
we say we are.
After looking at Richard Nixon'slife and studying as many
memoirs, as many recollectionsas you can find and have been
kept, produced. The one I foundmost valuable, talked about
Richard Nixon as setting up inthe White House, a Us versus

(15:28):
them, category, that we'redifferent from everybody else.
We're doing what's right,everybody else is doing what's
wrong. And that's the basis ofthe enemies list, a list of
enemies of the administration.For me, the testimony of

(15:49):
integrity, undercuts anddestroys an enimies list.
Everyone one is a human being.Quakers insist that there is
something invisible in humanbeings, we call that of God in
people. Nixon seldom saw that ofGod and everyone

Peterson Toscano (16:21):
That was Quaker historian and author
Larry Engel and an excerpt fromthe QakerSpeak video entitled,
"Was Richard Nixon a Quaker?"

Miche McCall (16:29):
You'll find this QuakerSpeak video and the
QuakerSpeak channel on YouTube,or is visit QuakerSpeak.com.
2024 is a big year it's apresidential election here in
the US, and Quakers across theglobe are celebrating George

(16:50):
foxes 400th birthday. Fox wasn'ta changed the political system
from the inside kind of person.He's known for walking barefoot
in the snow and singing loudlyin prison. Annoying all of his
jailers, not someone who mightput on a suit and run for
office. What does a Quakerpolitician or lobbyist bring to
a system many considercompromised and corrupt? How

(17:12):
might Quakerism act as anoppositional faith that speaks
truth to power, instead ofwielding it? When does a Quaker
in politics need to walk awayfrom the system?
Carl Abbott and MarjoriePost-Abbott map how Quakers have
lobbied kings served onlegislatures and shaped
international policy since ourearly early days. Quakers and

(17:33):
Politics addresses theinclination of some friends to
disengage from flawed officesand policies. Instead, the
writers encourage us to leverageour unique willingness to listen
and seek common ground. I'mgrateful for the authors for
writing this book and for PaulBuckley for reviewing it in
Friends Journal. We can'tcontinue having Nixon as the

(17:56):
most politically powerfulQuaker. The book is Quakers and
politics by Marjorie Post-Abbottand Carl Abbott. It's a part of
the Quaker Quick series, a setof short books perfect for
religious education. You can buyit at QuakerBooks.org. You can
read a Paul Buckley's review inFriens Journal. Each month
Friends Journal includes reviewsof several excellent books.

(18:18):
Visit FriendsJournal.org formore reviews.

Peterson Toscano (18:34):
And for you listening. Thank you for joining
us for this episode of QuakersToday. We definitely would like
to hear from you.

Miche McCall (18:41):
Many thanks to everyone who is sharing Quakers
Today with friends and on socialmedia.

Peterson Toscano (18:48):
Quakers Today is written and produced by me
Peterson Toscano

Miche McCall (18:52):
and me Miche McCall. Music on today's show
comes from Epidemic Sound.Season Three of Quakers Today is
sponsored by American FriendsService Committee.

Peterson Toscano (19:03):
Do you want to challenge unjust systems and
promote lasting peace? TheAmerican Friends Service
Committee or AFSC, works withcommunities worldwide to drive
social change. Their websitefeatures meaningful steps you
can take to make a difference.Find out how you can become part
of AFSC's global community ofchangemakers. Visit afsc.org.

Miche McCall (19:30):
And visit QuakersToday.org to see our show
notes and a full transcript ofthis episode. You can follow
Quakers Today on Instagram, X,and TikTok.

Peterson Toscano (19:42):
Stick around after the closing to hear
listeners responses to thequestion, "Who was a historical
figure you admire but whosewords or actions trouble you?"

Miche McCall (19:51):
Thank you friend. We look forward to spending more
time with you soon.

(20:25):
Peterson, I mentioned earlierthat Quakerism might provide a
model for other groups facingtrouble leaders and questionable
pasts. You came out of anextreme rightwing Christian
past. How do you see formerleaders in your life and past?

Peterson Toscano (20:42):
Wow, yeah, that's true. I was in a deeply
anti-gay, anti-abortion,pro-war, intense Christian past.
And I fully embraced it until Iwas in my 30s. Not only do I
have to think about the formerleaders, but even myself.I mean,

(21:06):
I did things back in those daysthat are so troubling for me.
Like I was totally anti gay. Itried to destroy the gayness in
myself. Sure, I had leaders thatassisted me, but it was my own
personal mission to kill the gayin me, and to oppose any

(21:28):
legislation that would giveLGBTQ+ people rights. And I look
back at that person who seems sodifferent from the person today.
And I can't erase that, I alsocan't erase the fact that at
that time, I really believed Iwas filled with love, and that I

(21:52):
was doing the right thing. Andthat is something I don't ever
want to forget. Because I wantto recognize that of God and my
opponents, and that they mayhave ideas that are so wrong,
but they think are holy and goodand right. It's so easy to judge

(22:17):
where someone's coming from bywhat they're doing. And I don't
think that's effective inactivism for sure. I've had to
learn how to see that of God andmyself, and in everyone around
me, without in any way excusingbehavior that was harmful.

Miche McCall (22:36):
Wow. Yeah. In politics, I often think that
people are legislating in badfaith. But thinking about your
history, even if someone has abelief that truly harms other
people that it doesn't mean thatthey think that they hate other
people. Yeah. And that wasreally moving to hear you say.

(23:00):
Of course, there's going to bepeople who are doing evil
things, because they want to beevil. But there is space for
reconciliation. If people aredriven by by love. Yeah, that's
misplaced sometimes.

Peterson Toscano (23:17):
Yeah. And you reminded me too, in what you
just said that when someone'strapped in an oppressive system,
they may not see that they'reoppressed, and therefore they
may end up oppressing otherpeople. It's not just to
liberate the oppressed, but alsohow do we liberate the
oppressor?

Miche McCall (23:37):
As Johanna and Naveed were talking, erasing the
past doesn't fix it. Butengaging and learning from the
systems that we're still in. Andthose systems that have been
built for centuries, isessential for a collective
liberation.

Peterson Toscano (23:56):
Thanks Miche for that question. In a moment,
you will hear listenersvoicemails about questionable
leaders.

Miche McCall (24:08):
But first let me share with you next month's
question. Here's the question,"What does Quakerism have to
offer society in 2024?"

Peterson Toscano (24:22):
Leave a voicemail with your name and
your town. The number to call is317-Quakers. That's
317-782-5377. 317. Pplus one ifcalling from outside the USA.
You can also text us email or DMus on TikTok, Instagram or X Our

(24:49):
email is podcast(@)friendsjournal.org We have these
contact details in our shownotes over at QuakersToday.org.
Now we hear answers to thequestion, "Who is a historical
figure you admire but whosewords or actions trouble you?"
Alright, we have some answersfrom people who follow us on

(25:10):
social media. From my personalFacebook account, Simon
breezeblock wrote, "Here's a bigone for me at the moment.
Everyone knows Alexander GrahamBell and his contributions to
the world and inventing thetelephone, he literally changed
the world. However, what mostpeople don't know is despite or

(25:32):
perhaps because of having a deafmother and wife, he sent back
Global Deaf Education andCulture by 100 or more years by
campaigning for the ban on theuse of sign in schools and by
the deaf community moregenerally. Look up the Milan

(25:52):
Conference of 1880."
From the Quakers Today TikTokaccount Nora writes, "FDR. love
the New Deal, hate his treatmentof Japanese Americans." Nicole
simply writes one name, "Nixon."And so I'm wondering, Nicole,

(26:13):
what do you admire about Nixon?That got me looking into Nixon's
history, and I realized I amgrateful for what Nixon did for
the environment. He establishedthe Environmental Protection
Agency or the EPA in 1970. Thishas played a crucial role in
regulating pollution andprotecting the environment.

(26:34):
Nixon also signed the Clean AirAct of 1970 and the Endangered
Species Act of 1973.
. While Miche and I were at thefriends General Conference
Gathering at Haverford College,we shared the question with a
few folks. And here's oneresponse.

Ted Heck (26:52):
My name is Ted heck, and I live in Virginia. I really
admire President Barack Obama.However, some of his actions in
particular have definitelytroubled me while he was
president. There were someactivities overseas that were
problematic and violent, I thinkdid not contribute to peace in

(27:17):
the way that I would have hoped.On the other side, you know, he
did appoint more LGBTQ people toimportant positions in the
federal government than anyperson before in the office of
president. So I have veryconflicted feelings about him.

Peterson Toscano (27:35):
And from our listener, voicemail, line 317
Quakers, we have the followinganswers.

Ricky Juliusson (27:44):
Hi, there, my name is Ricky Juliusson with the
Twin Cities Friends Meeting, andresponding to the query about
historical figures whom youadmire, but with actions and
words also trouble you. Andinstantly My mind went to Toby
Keith, who was a brilliantcountry music writer and singer.
And I have an astounding numberof songs of his in my songbook.

(28:07):
But his politics I just hatedafter the American Shock and Awe
attack on Iraq. Iraq, ​he ​came​out ​with ​an ​album ​called
​shock ​em, ​y'all. ​And ​that's​just ​brilliant. ​Brilliant
​marketing, ​brilliant​wordsmithing. ​And ​I ​hate
​his ​message. ​• ​• ​After​911, ​he ​came ​out ​with ​the
​song ​courtesy ​of ​the ​red,​white, ​and ​blue. ​And ​again,

(28:30):
​it's ​so ​well ​written. ​Hey,​Uncle ​Sam, ​put ​your ​name
​at ​the ​top ​of ​his ​list.​And ​the ​Statue ​of ​Liberty
​is ​shaking ​your ​fist ​and​the ​eagle ​will ​fly. ​Man,
​it's ​gonna ​be ​hell, ​when​you ​hear ​mother ​freedom
​start ​ringing ​her ​bell,​it's ​just ​an ​amazing,
​rousing ​war ​song ​of ​our​era. ​It's ​a ​great ​song.
​And ​again, ​I'm ​so ​opposed​to ​the ​message. ​And ​so ​I
​was ​wondering, ​should ​I​just ​get ​them ​out ​of ​my

(28:51):
​songbook ​altogether? ​But ​the​songs ​I ​have ​in ​there ​are
​the ​songs ​that ​I ​do ​like,​the ​messaging, ​and ​that
​make ​me ​laugh ​or ​cry ​or​both. ​And ​I ​decided ​that ​I
​can ​respect ​an ​artist ​and​his ​artistry ​without ​that
​meaning ​that ​I ​endorse ​his​politics, ​because ​he ​has
​the ​right ​to ​his ​politics.​And ​he's ​an ​extremely
​intelligent ​man. ​And ​he​died ​recently, ​and ​in ​his
​obituary, ​I ​could ​see ​that​he ​was ​much ​more ​nuanced

(29:14):
​than ​I ​gave ​him ​credit​for. ​He ​actually ​backed
​Obama's ​first ​campaign. ​•​So ​there ​are ​parts ​of ​his
​politics ​that ​I ​didn't​agree ​with. ​In ​part, ​they
​actually ​move ​on. ​I ​got.​So ​I'm ​also ​glad ​I ​hadn't
​written ​him. ​Thank ​you ​so​much.

Sharlee DiMenichi (29:32):
Hello, this is Charlie generici. I'm a
member of Lehigh Valley FriendsMeeting and I live in Allentown,
Pennsylvania. And I very muchadmire John Woolman, of course
for his opposition toenslavement, but I am troubled
by the story of him killing allthose baby birds that were
abandoned by their motherinstead of raising them himself.

(29:56):
I just feel a lot of concernthat you He would look at
another species and see that itwas his option to just kill
members of that species. It feltlike he was taking too much
power into his own hands. Sothank you. Goodbye.