April 30, 2024 • 36 mins
Host, Mark Miller, speaks with Pat Pound about her life experiences, her advocacy, and her hobbies. Learn about:
- Her unique journey.
- Her staying active in retirement.
- Her experience fencing.
- Her work in the community.
- Exchanging knowledge between different age groups
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
- [Announcer] Welcome to TPGi's
"Real People Real Stories" podcast,
where you'll find interestingand diverse stories
from folks working to make theworld a more inclusive place.
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- Hey, welcome to the "RealPeople Real Stories" podcast,
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(00:21):
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Welcome, everybody, thanksfor listening once again
to "Real People Real Stories."
I'm so excited tointroduce Pat Pound to you.
(00:42):
She and I were geekingout just before this
because we're really excitedto talk about fencing,
which is something that we both did.
The difference is, is thatPat recently comes to fencing,
and she has a vision impairment, so it was
(01:03):
a little bit different ofan experience than I had,
or is a little bit differentof an experience than I had.
So, Pat, first of all,
tell us a little bitabout your vision loss
so that we can havekind of this background
for your new passion,(chuckles) which is fencing.
- [Pat Pound] All right,I was born very premature,
(01:23):
and like many people at thetime in which I was born,
which is a while back,prematurity caused my blindness
in terms of the amount ofoxygen that I was given,
and I had low vision until I was about 14,
and then I was total after that time.
- Wow.
So there's probably a ton forus to talk about, you know,
(01:45):
in terms of your experience in school
and through life in general
and all the things that you had to do,
but right before we kindof turned on the mics here,
we were both talking about fencing.
And this is amazing to me
'cause we're also talking about the fact
that you've been retired for a little bit,
which seems like semantics (laughs)
because you're very busy in retirement,
but it wasn't until recently,
(02:07):
and while you're in retirement,
that you decided to take up fencing.
So why? What drew you to-
- [Pat Pound] Well, I was doing some work
with a gentleman named Rabia Dell.
His and my career are somewhatsimilar along the way.
We've both run blindnessrehab programs of sorts.
(02:29):
He was a student at, ateacher at, and later,
the director at the CarrollCenter for the Blind.
And we were doing some work on people
calling their pets guide dogs,
and legislation in that regard.
And we were waiting on people
to come to a meeting at a Starbucks
and all of sudden he said, "Oh,
(02:51):
you might like this, I'm a fencer."
(laughs) And I said, "You're a what?"
(Mark laughs)
And so he proceeded toexplain to me how it works,
and he said, "And I wasalso a fencing coach."
(laughs) And I said, "Whoa,whoa, tell me where."
And he said, "At the CarrollCenter for the Blind."
Well, I had run our rehabprogram here in Texas
(03:12):
and, you know, immediatelyI wanted a redo.
And immediately I had twonew bucket list things.
I wanna fence (laughs) andI want to reinstate fencing
in the blindness world, notjust as a recreational pursuit,
because the other PC toldme, the Carroll Center,
at least at the time he was there,
(03:33):
strongly could tell a significantconnection between fencing
and orientation and mobility,
like the use of a whitecane and walking in traffic.
And some of it has todo with body awareness
and spatial awareness, balance.
(03:53):
There's just a lot of parallels.
And he even said to methat if a person there
was having trouble in mobility,
like say they were veeringleft, crossing streets,
they immediately justturned to the fencers,
fencing coaches andsaid, "Can you fix it?"
And they said, "Yes," and they did.
Well, of course I was thinking,"Geez, if I'd known that,
(04:15):
I would've done it in Texas,(laughs) and I wanted a redo,
but I don't really want a redo.
But you know, back then wedidn't have the internet,
but the Carroll Center's still doing this.
Father Carroll had seenit at Hines Rehab Center,
as vets came back from WorldWar II who were blinded,
(04:36):
they were fencing.
So it's been around a long time,
but we lost it somewhere along the way.
So friends of mine thatwe were meeting with
showed up and then they got interested,
and we got back and we did the work
that we were actually meeting about,
but one of them in the group,
(04:56):
and I kept calling fencing places,
trying to generate someinterest, you know,
because Rabia lives in California,
so he's not gonna be, you know,
useful other than over thephone advisor kind of person.
Anyway, so he explained to me that,
okay, what people do is, first of all,
(05:20):
both fencers wear blindfolds.
I don't care how much vision, no vision,
whatever-- Makes sense.
- [Pat Pound] That way,you know nobody has vision.
- Yep.
- [Pat Pound] And the uniquething about that and fencing
is most fencing coacheshave sighted people
do at least one lesson under blindfold
during their time of training.
(05:40):
And they do this because it forces people
to concentrate in a different way.
And they get it. They understand it.
And so Rabia told me that ashe travels around the country,
sometimes he gets into fencing,
and he just looks up a fencingplace and walks in cold
and says, "Is anybodywilling to fence me?"
And he says he's always foundpeople willing to fence.
(06:04):
So that's a unique thing, I think,
because people aren't scared of it.
- Yeah.- And you don't have to have
a blind person to fence with.
You don't have to have a team.
What you do have to haveas a coach. (chuckles)
And so that was our hardestthing to do locally,
is to find a coach.
And there was a gentlemanthat owned a fencing club
(06:29):
in a suburb by Austin, calledRound Rock, for 40 years.
And my colleague that wasworking with me on this
happened to call him thesecond day of his retirement.
(laughs) And so he isnow our fencing coach.
And so he was trying to learnblindness off the internet,
and so the second callI said, "Gee, Coach,
(06:50):
how about you just cometo the house (laughs)
and I'll make this alot more real for you.
We can do this a lot more quickly
and probably in a more fruitful way."
And what I didn't know is hebrought fencing gear with him.
And so I had my firstfencing lesson that day.
- Wow.
- [Pat Pound] So it evolved into,
we did a number of demo classesat our school for the blind.
(07:14):
And of course, you know,a lot of blind kids
have never seen fencing,never heard of fencing,
so they thought we weretalking about a cedar fence
or a picket fence.(pair laughs)
- What work am I gonna have todo over the weekend? (laughs)
- [Pat Pound] That's right, they said,
"Are you putting your cane over the fence
or (laughs) what are you doing?"
So a lot of it is, initially,passing around swords
(07:37):
and explaining what the differentparts are and how it works
because you don't have thatvisual information happening
to see it on TV or on the internet.
- Oh yeah.- Whatever.
Anyway, so we startedour first for-pay class.
Unfortunately,transportation is our nemesis
(07:58):
because the particularsuburb that we're good in,
from our standpoint of the fencing club,
is not good in transportation.
But also our coach tends to foster
and train teenage coaches,
so they become assistant fencing coaches,
and he's done that all of his career.
(08:19):
And so he took some of hisbetter assistant fencing coaches
and asked them if they wanted to learn
about how to be blind fencing coaches.
And they volunteered to do that.
And so (chuckles) in my class,
I have Coach Murray, who's my coach,
and then three other young people
(08:41):
who are excited to sharetheir knowledge of fencing,
and then learn best how to coach,
and how to coach blind folks,and how to be comfortable.
So we're now on my intermediate class.
We start with plastic foils,
partly because you canget 'em into schools easy
(09:01):
because they're a lot lessdangerous than the metal ones.
And, and you know, the tipsbeen, you still need masks,
but it works.
Rabia prefers metal all the way.
He says it's kinda like the difference
between a plastic, foldable,wobbly cane and a real cane.
(09:24):
- Right.- Which I can see that.
So I'm very much a newbie,
but I'm very much enjoying the experience.
And I can personally tell,
even as I walk around myneighborhood with my guide dog,
I've already applied, justbecause of muscle memory,
(09:47):
a lot of the things that are useful,
and like being on the balls of your feet.
Well, for blind people,that's tremendously useful
'cause if you step and therehappens to be a rolling stone,
you know, a little oneright under your foot,
you can go down.- Yep.
- [Pat Pound] And dog or not,
and so anything you cando that helps you not fall
(10:10):
and maintain your balance...
So I would say, in that sense,it's sort of like dancers
who use fencing to be better dancers.
And you don't have to think about it.
You don't go, "Oh yeah,I remember that thing
that they told me and da da da."
Your hands and feet have beentrained, and you just do it.
- Yep.
So there's a lot to go there.
(10:32):
So first of all, I'm gonna tell you that
I'm about an hour awayfrom the Carroll Center.
I'm assuming you're talking about like-
- [Pat Pound] Oh wow.- Austin?
Yeah, so real familiar with that.
I've been down there severaltimes, great group of people.
But also, my family's from Texas,
and lived in Austin and in Round Rock.
(pair laughs)So talking about Texas
(10:53):
and Round Rock, I'm like, we're here.
But as you-- Yeah,
we were supposed to meet.- Yeah,
we were supposed to meet,but and as you and I,
we were starting to talk about,
before we even jumped on the podcast,
I actually, I'm a longterm martial artist.
So I've been in the martial arts
since I was like 13 years old.
I'm no longer 13 years old.
So-(Pat laughs)
(11:14):
Math, I think-- Join the club.
- We'll call it 30 plus years ago.
And when I was in college, Idid several years of fencing.
So as you're talking aboutthe relationship between
fencing and orientation,because fencing's very...
So for the listeners whomaybe haven't fenced before,
(11:35):
from a combat standpoint,it's extremely linear, right?
It's almost like combat that happens
in a very narrow hallway
is kind of the easiestway to think about it.
Whereas if you watchtwo boxers fight, right?
Which would be another one-on-one,
kind of mano y mano combatsituation, it's very circular.
(11:57):
The boxers are always circling each other,
trying to avoid the powerhand and stuff like that.
But fencers, the whole sport is designed,
there's some, like with a coupe and stuff,
there's some sort of movingby the side of the person,
but the sport's designed tostay in this linear path.
So what I'm saying, Pat, is that
when you were talking abouthow it helps you oriented,
(12:18):
it makes sense because,
even as a person sighted who's fencing,
it's sometimes hard to juststay on that kind of tight rope
that you're sort of fencing on, right?
And so without the benefit of sight,
all that orientation is eventhat much more difficult.
But if you train yourselfto fence, I can really,
(12:39):
as a fencer relate to how that helps you.
And then of course the balance, you know,
being able to stay in balanceduring that linear movement
while doing something, thatrequires such dexterity,
like manipulating, and forthose of you who haven't fenced,
(13:00):
it is small, small, subtle manipulations.
If you think about the length of that foil
that Pat was talking about,a small movement of the hand
means a big movement at the tip.
So everything requires agreat deal of coordination,
a great deal of thing.
(13:20):
So, and then oddly, italso kind of makes sense
because just the articulation of a cane,
which a lot of people who areblind used to navigate with,
and to fine tune that skill with a foil
(13:42):
makes a whole lot of sense.
- [Pat Pound] Well, and also in mobility,
blind people go fromsomewhere to somewhere,
not just to somewhere, okay?
So it's a calculated movement,
even if you're lost,it's calculated. (laughs)
And the same thing is true with fencing.
(14:02):
Now things will happen along the way.
Your opponent may not be doing
what you were thinkingthey might be doing,
but that's the same thing in traffic.
You're protecting yourself
as well as trying toget to your destination,
and you're trying to do it assertively
and in time with the light,
and you know, all those kind of things.
The Carroll Center is stilldoing fencing, as is Perkins,
(14:26):
and I don't think they're emphasizing
the mobility connection as much.
They just know it, you know,they don't talk about it.
But they still do it,
and I think the two compete quite a bit.
In fact, one of the things we're gonna do
is do some competitions.
You know, we gotta geta few more people taught
so we have enough people who've learned.
(14:48):
But the other piece thatI think is important
is at least in Texas,
fencing is allowed as anout-of-class PE activity.
And what that meansis, if you're a fencer,
and instead of takingyour regular PE class,
if you wanna go to fencingoutside of your class
(15:08):
and your fencing instructor
is willing to monitor what you do,
and your parents are willingto monitor what you do,
then you can get credit.
Now it's a pass-fail credit,
it's not a great credit, for PE.
But I just think of all theblind kids that, you know,
during basketball or volleyball,
sit on the side becausethere's not a good way
(15:30):
to modify that.
And so we already have thebones for sighted people,
and I don't know why itwould be any different
for blind students-- Right.
- [Pat Pound] To go usethat as a PE activity.
- So let me ask you this, and by the way,
I picked up that subtle hint
that I should go to the Carroll Center
(15:50):
and throw a blind-(Pat laughs)
And have those guyspick on me a little bit-
- [Pat Pound] Hey sure. (laughs)
Report back.- That's right.
No, but what I wanted to ask you,
just thinking as somebodywho fenced before,
and I'm just thinking aboutkind of the mechanics of this,
so there's a lot of tactilesensitivity in fencing,
right, as you know, and that means that
(16:11):
when the foils are in contact,a lot of your understanding
of what your opponent isdoing, going to do, might do,
whatever, is throughthe tactile sensitivity.
So in that case,
sight almost becomes a secondarysense to perceive all that,
for somebody who's sighted, like myself.
(16:35):
So here's what my question is for you is
when you're not in that condition,
when you're separate from your opponent,
so that there's no contact anywhere
through your foil or elsewhere,
what senses or how are you trying to judge
and perceive what youropponent might be doing
(16:56):
before that contact is made?
- [Pat Pound] Well, first ofall, you need to be searching
because they're gonnabe searching, you know?
'Cause obviously, unless you make contact,
neither of you know muchinformation for real.
So you're trying to gain information.
You think about, you know,
where the last time you had contact was,
(17:18):
but that may not matter.
You wanna make sure thatyour foil is not horizontal
because you need to be slanted
because you have more chanceof encountering their blade.
You do little circles to try to find them.
(17:39):
And one of the things that's interesting,
by the way, Italy is really big.
You ought to do internet researchon blind fencing in Italy.
They're probably mostactive folks right now,
and they do huge competitions.
And in fact, my coachgot them to be able to do
(17:59):
a demo at the Paralympics in Paris,
which we're all really excited about.
Blind fencing is not a paralympic sport,
but we would love forthat to happen someday.
And boy, the Italians arethe people that carry it.
So we'll see what happens with that.
So you just kinda keepdoing these circles,
(18:22):
but of course, you can stepbackward and forward too.
And so sometimes youwanna move out of range,
and you know, just to see what happens.
Or maybe you have a plan for, you know,
what this particular opponent does
and some of those kind of things.
So a lot of it's guesswork,
(18:43):
but then you have to takewhatever information you get
and try to apply it to what you do.
- Yeah, that's really interesting
because if you had asked me that question,
I would've answered it the same way.
- [Pat Pound] Oh,interesting. That's cool.
- Yeah, like as a sightedperson who's fencing,
I'm using those same circular motions.
(19:05):
I'm searching for the blade,
I'm using air quotes when I say that.
I know where the bladeis because of sight,
but I guess the whole point isit doesn't stay there, right?
That other person isarticulating their blade as well.
- Right, right.- Keep constant movement,
and really to find thatblade, you have to be,
now I'm fencing, I'm makingthe motions of fencing.
(19:27):
Right, I'm getting too-(Pat laughs)
- [Pat Pound] Fingerfencing. Finger fencing.
- Finger fencing, right, but,
you know, so you're sort ofkeeping that motion going
in hopes that you encounter that blade
and get that tactile sensitivity.
And obviously you're using,distancing is a big thing,
and I would imagine distancing,could be totally wrong,
(19:50):
is a bit easier if you'resighted than blind,
and you have to use yourcontact with a sword
to understand your distance.
But one of the thingslike as a martial artist
that fencing taught me, was Ibecame way better at distance.
Right, so judging-- Ah, yes.
- Relation to a opponent andwhat's a threat, and all that.
But one of the things that's real,
(20:10):
so this is another layer Pat, right?
That as a person who's blind,
I would imagine your abilityto be sensitive with your cane
and to search with your caneand to have some dexterity
around how you're doing thatand dealing with situations
that bring up things you didn't expect
or whatever the case is,and now you're taking that
(20:32):
and you're putting that intoa much more intense situation
with something that's essentially a cane.
- [Pat Pound] Yes, it'salmost like the car's coming,
the car's coming, you'dbetter figure it out.
- Yeah.- You know. (laughs)
- That's exactly right, yeah,
but it's starting to really come together
in terms of why it's such a valuable sport
and activity for a blind person.
(20:53):
I mean, anybody's gonna benefit, right?
That's why I am lifetime martial artist-
- [Pat Pound] Right, right.
You know, and the whole respectand in honor of my coach,
the morning after my first class,
I woke up and I wassmiling and thinking about,
'cause I'd gone to some of the demo stuff,
so, you know, it wasn't...
Anyway, it was really fun,
but I met these teenagers at that class
(21:16):
and, you know, the other joy I had
was when have I hadteenagers who were excited
to tell an older person like me
about something to teachan older person like me,
something that they knew.
Well, usually it's like somebody told 'em
to go help their grandmawith their phone, you know,
(21:37):
and they'll do it, butthey're not excited about it.
These folks were excited about it.
And I have as much joy out ofwatching them grow as coaches
as I do at learning.
It's like, what's not to like about this?
- Yeah.
(21:57):
You know, that's the other aspect
that I wanted to dive down.
I'm really glad that you brought it up,
but when you mentionedthat, there's so much value,
I think, one from respect,growth, understanding standpoint,
to put young people in scenarios
where they're engaging withold people, and vice versa,
(22:19):
older people I should say, and vice versa.
And I always tellpeople, like, you know...
so, you know, full disclosure,I'm not real young either.
(pair laughs)
And people always, like, I'llhave conversations with people
and they'll be like, youknow, "Oh, they're a kid,
they don't know anything."
And I go, "Wait a minute,they know more than you."
(22:39):
And they go, "Well, whatare you talking about
they know more than you?"
And I say, "Well, this personwas introduced into this Earth
with the base level ofknowledge that you and I have.
Do they have more to learn?"
Of course they have more to learn, right?
Like, they've only beentrying to do it for 15,
16 years, or whatever.
So there's more for them to learn.
But their starting point
is so much more advancedthan our starting point.
(22:59):
And you brought it up Pat, right?
You said, "How do I use my phone?"
These kids, by the time they are eight,
are better at using their phone
than you are at using your phone, right?
So- (voice cuts out)when they're a teenager.
So that exchange of knowledge,I think as an older person,
if we're going to grow,
(23:19):
that requires interactionwith young people.
And I think if young people want to grow
and grow in better ways,
that requires not justolder people being around,
but really good positiveintention interaction.
And I think you guys havecreated an unbelievable scenario
where you can give these young people
(23:40):
senses of accomplishments.
You guys can learn from eachother and create an environment
where both people are really growing
beyond what you wouldexpect through you learning
how to fence and themlearning how to coach.
Right?- Yeah.
- So, that's really amazing.
(24:02):
And then I think, in your scenario,
it's even more Pat, right?
Because they have a real advantage
being exposed to peoplewith disabilities early on.
And they probably avoidthings like, you know,
they realize right awaythat they're dealing with
people who just happen tointeract with the world
slightly differently.- Right.
(24:23):
- What kind of questions andrevelations and, you know,
all that sort of thing do yousee from these young people
who get an opportunity to work with you?
- [Pat Pound] I think, you know,
they each have their strengths, obviously.
And I enjoy each of theirstrengths, in terms of coaching.
(24:45):
And my coach had donewell at schooling them
about how to treat blind people,how to introduce yourself.
And in fact, one thing I haven't mentioned
is that our coach, coachMurray, has just gotten approved
a course that can be delivered via Zoom
(25:05):
that will teach fencing coacheshow to coach blind folks.
- Oh, that's interesting.
- [Pat Pound] And there will be a way
that they can then getcertified under this program.
That way we can starthaving fencing coaches
who understand blind people.
And, you know, that way we canmake this thing grow beyond,
(25:27):
you know, what it is in Austin, Texas.
- Yeah, well, and that's thefast way to grow it, right?
Your reach is gonna be so-
- [Pat Pound] Well, andour coach did fencing
during the pandemic via Zoom.
And so he's got a lot of that.
In fact, he's coming over tomorrow.
He's built a little buzzer pad
(25:49):
so that I can stick it up on my wall
and then if my foiltouches it, it will buzz.
So, if I'm trying to say, you know,
I wanna go to this spot,and I put it on that spot,
and then I position myselfin different positions.
You know, and then I can walkup, if it doesn't go off,
(26:12):
I can walk up and see how far I was.
- Get that feedback, yeah,it's feedback in a couple ways.
You hit it or you didn't hit it,
and then you can walk up and-(voice cuts out) yourself,
and just different starting points
so that you're trying to hit that target
from different areas.- Right, right.
And that way, you know,'cause I'm always concerned
about at home practice, doing it wrong,
(26:32):
(laughs) because you don'twant your muscle memory,
you know, doing wrong things.
But yeah, he's had fundeveloping some things like that.
- So I teach a lot of kids inmartial arts, and adults both,
and one of the things I do periodically
is I'll do one of two things,
I'll either blindfold thewhole class, except for myself,
(26:53):
right, safety reasons.- Right.
- Or I won't allow anytalking during class,
like zero communicationverbally, through talk.
And I don't give 'em any direction.
We just run a normal classunderneath those conditions
so that they have to experimentand try to figure out,
like if I don't have thebenefit of sight, what do I do?
(27:17):
And it's very interestingbecause they'll do things like,
you know, I'll say,"Everybody go get a pad,"
and the pads are in one area of the room.
Somebody will find themand then they'll walk back
and find their partnerand they'll have their pad
and they'll be all set and everybody else
will be wandering aroundthe room, not finding a pad.
You know, so we have questions around,
well you can talk, (laughs) you know,
you don't have- (voicecuts out) can't talk,
(27:39):
but you know, why not announce it?
Why not have that be anopportunity to say, "Hey,
I found the pads, they're over here.
Follow me over here."- Yeah, yep.
- But anyways, listening to your example
about that pad that buzzes,that's really interesting.
And it starts the wheels turning
about how I could do similarthings with the kids,
(28:01):
because I think that if we cantake away that sense of sight
and we can increase that type of accuracy
and that physical awarenessof space that becomes so good-
- [Pat Pound] Well our coach says that
if you bring him into a room and say,
"Here's two fencers, whodo you wanna work with?"
And one a sighted and one is blind,
(28:21):
he will always choose the blind person.
And it's about focus,it's truly about focus,
because we can't functionwithout focus. (chuckles)
We have to focus.
And so we practice it 24/7.
Successful, (laughs) maybeunsuccessful blind people don't,
I don't know.- Yeah.
- [Pat Pound] But he says
(28:42):
it just makes a hugedifference in teaching.
- Well, and that's anothergood point that you bring out,
as soon as you don'thave one of your senses,
that concentration of focusneeds to be greater to-
- [Pat Pound] Well what he says is,
even once they do the lesson,
people realize they can do that focus
and how much it benefits them.
(29:03):
- Yeah.
That's really interesting.
Man, I'm gonna take notes after this.
(Pat laughs)
My students are in forsome treats. (laughs)
- [Pat Pound] Well youhave to come to Austin,
maybe we can fence.
- I have to come to Austin.
My niece is going to UT Austin,so I need to come visit her.
And then I- (voice cuts out) everything.
(29:24):
I got a lot of reasons.
And then, of course, Ihave to track you down
and have you probablyschool me in fencing.
It's been a few years.It was early nineties.
- [Pat Pound] Well, wemight be about equal.
Remember, I'm still a newbie, so. (laughs)
- Yeah, we might be pretty even.
(29:44):
And by even, I mean, you'reprobably better than I am.
or at least by the time Imake it, if you're not now,
by the time I make itto Austin, you will be.
- [Pat Pound] Right, right right right.
- Cool.- Should be a good match.
- So with this group of kidsthat you're talking about,
any real interestingor surprising comments
that have come out of themthat you can think of that-
- [Pat Pound] Well, one lady
has been following a couple people.
(30:06):
She's into animals, she'sin Future Farmers of America
and has a goat and apig, I think, right now.
But she's followed acouple of people online
that she's identified thatwent and got guide dogs.
And so she hopes, atsome point in her life,
to be a puppy raiser.
So they've all-
- So she should be inspiredby the whole exposure to this.
(30:29):
- [Pat Pound] Right, right.
And so they've all gottenreally good at knowing,
what my dog's supposed to be doing
and letting me know ifshe's not doing that.
She has been totally unperturbed
about me waving a sword around.
- I'd have more respect for you too
(30:51):
if you started waving a sword at me.
(pair laughs)
- I guess so.- That's when I started
to really pay attentionand mind my manners
(laughs) is when people wave-- That's right.
Well, you know, when you swim,
a lot of guide dogs think you're drowning,
you know, 'cause you flailyour arms and stuff like that.
So I had no idea howshe was gonna respond.
And luckily, the very first time
he showed me fencing stuff was at my home.
(31:13):
And so she was in a safeenvironment for her.
But yeah, she knows all thepeople now, she knows the drill.
She went to sleep the other night,
you know, so she was very comfortable
and knows what's happening.
I think the young people,
I don't guess there'sanything terribly startling
(31:35):
except they just seem so comfortable.
You know, they'recomfortable enough to joke
and talk about what'sgoing on in school and-
- Treat you like a fellowhuman being and not like a-
- [Pat Pound] Right, youdon't get there magically.
And in fact, I would say this is
probably one of the betterthings I've ever done
in my career for public relations.
(31:55):
- That's wonderful.- You know,
and public awareness, and I mean,
you work at trying to do that, and hey,
(laughs) maybe we just needto do things like fencing.
- Well, like fencing,and I think just overall,
like giving people a chance to interact
with people with disabilities.
Like, that's one of thethings I really like
about this whole thing isthat it's a ready-made excuse
(32:19):
for that interaction to occur.
And I think that-- Absolutely.
- That only breedsunderstanding, and you know,
I mean, you're inspiringpeople to raise puppies
and, you know, assume new guidedogs and that kind of thing.
Which by the way, I did do a seminar,
a jujitsu seminar that wasa mixed group of people
(32:41):
and there was a guide dog there
who got very upset with me
when I was- (voice cuts out)techniques on his owner.
So, (laughs) how those things can go.
But you can't blame the poor puppy
because he's just like,"What, what are you doing?
That's not normal."- Yeah, really.
(33:01):
This is not okay.- Hurt him,
I'm gonna hurt you.
So yeah, this is good.
You want him to be protective,
but it's also reallynice when they realize
you're enjoying yourself.
I'm sure you're in tune with the dog
and the dog really, probably pick up
your emotional state on a whole-
- Right, but I did work atplanning some of that, you know,
initially so that shehad some good exposure,
(33:22):
she knew the people,all that kind of stuff.
If you plant it, thenif something happens,
your retrieval is not nearly so hard.
- Mmhmm.
Well Pat, believe it or not,
we're already to the end of the podcast.
We need to wrap it up.
And we successfully onlytalked about fencing,
(33:46):
which I think exactly howit should have gone, right?
- [Pat Pound] Suits me.
- We talked about a lot more than fencing,
we just did it all throughthe fencing context, right?
- [Pat Pound] Correct.
- Is there anythingthat you, like any last,
you know, last words of wisdom
or anything that youwant to kind of highlight
or point out that we didn't cover?
(34:06):
- [Pat Pound] Well, notparticularly, except that, you know,
if we all take theopportunities that we have
and this one fell into my lap,
then, you know, a whole bunchof things come out of it
that were not necessarily on our list.
And I'm sure I will still get fencing
(34:26):
into the blindness world again.
You know, that will take awhile, but that will happen.
But if we all take those opportunities,
then everybody's gonnawin in the sense that
websites will be more accessible,
just because people comeout with an understanding
of disability better than they had before.
(34:48):
And you know, it's always true
that even if people don't know something,
if they're interestedand willing to learn it,
they're gonna learn it much more quickly
than if they're facinga lawsuit or a fine,
or, you know, a negative reasonthat they need to do this.
- That's a great point.
And you know, the other thing I'll say too
(35:09):
is I love the fact that in retirement,
you're diving in andlearning brand new things,
things that are physically challenging.
- [Pat Pound] Yes.
- So important that you continueto grow as a human being
and challenge yourself in any way
that you can challenge yourself.
So kudos to you for that.
I think that that's super impressive.
(35:31):
- [Pat Pound] Thank you.
- Well, thank you so much.
I wish we could just keeptalking about fencing, Pat,
but we gotta wrap up.(Pat laughing)
So this is Mark Miller, thanking Pat,
and reminding you to keep it accessible.
- [Announcer] This podcast hasbeen brought to you by TPGi,
the experts in digital accessibility.
(35:51):
Stay tuned for more "RealPeople, Real Stories" podcasts
coming soon.(upbeat music)
- [Announcer] Welcome to TPGi's
"Real People Real Stories" podcast,
where you'll find interestingand diverse stories
from folks working to make theworld a more inclusive place.
(upbeat music)
- Hey, welcome to the "RealPeople Real Stories" podcast,
brought to you by TPGi.
(00:21):
I am your host, Mark Miller, thanking you
for helping us keep it accessible.
Do us a favor,
if you're enjoying "RealPeople Real Stories," share it.
Tell someone about it.
Hey, even link to it fromyour accessible website.
Welcome, everybody, thanksfor listening once again
to "Real People Real Stories."
I'm so excited tointroduce Pat Pound to you.
(00:42):
She and I were geekingout just before this
because we're really excitedto talk about fencing,
which is something that we both did.
The difference is, is thatPat recently comes to fencing,
and she has a vision impairment, so it was
(01:03):
a little bit different ofan experience than I had,
or is a little bit differentof an experience than I had.
So, Pat, first of all,
tell us a little bitabout your vision loss
so that we can havekind of this background
for your new passion,(chuckles) which is fencing.
- [Pat Pound] All right,I was born very premature,
(01:23):
and like many people at thetime in which I was born,
which is a while back,prematurity caused my blindness
in terms of the amount ofoxygen that I was given,
and I had low vision until I was about 14,
and then I was total after that time.
- Wow.
So there's probably a ton forus to talk about, you know,
(01:45):
in terms of your experience in school
and through life in general
and all the things that you had to do,
but right before we kindof turned on the mics here,
we were both talking about fencing.
And this is amazing to me
'cause we're also talking about the fact
that you've been retired for a little bit,
which seems like semantics (laughs)
because you're very busy in retirement,
but it wasn't until recently,
(02:07):
and while you're in retirement,
that you decided to take up fencing.
So why? What drew you to-
- [Pat Pound] Well, I was doing some work
with a gentleman named Rabia Dell.
His and my career are somewhatsimilar along the way.
We've both run blindnessrehab programs of sorts.
(02:29):
He was a student at, ateacher at, and later,
the director at the CarrollCenter for the Blind.
And we were doing some work on people
calling their pets guide dogs,
and legislation in that regard.
And we were waiting on people
to come to a meeting at a Starbucks
and all of sudden he said, "Oh,
(02:51):
you might like this, I'm a fencer."
(laughs) And I said, "You're a what?"
(Mark laughs)
And so he proceeded toexplain to me how it works,
and he said, "And I wasalso a fencing coach."
(laughs) And I said, "Whoa,whoa, tell me where."
And he said, "At the CarrollCenter for the Blind."
Well, I had run our rehabprogram here in Texas
(03:12):
and, you know, immediatelyI wanted a redo.
And immediately I had twonew bucket list things.
I wanna fence (laughs) andI want to reinstate fencing
in the blindness world, notjust as a recreational pursuit,
because the other PC toldme, the Carroll Center,
at least at the time he was there,
(03:33):
strongly could tell a significantconnection between fencing
and orientation and mobility,
like the use of a whitecane and walking in traffic.
And some of it has todo with body awareness
and spatial awareness, balance.
(03:53):
There's just a lot of parallels.
And he even said to methat if a person there
was having trouble in mobility,
like say they were veeringleft, crossing streets,
they immediately justturned to the fencers,
fencing coaches andsaid, "Can you fix it?"
And they said, "Yes," and they did.
Well, of course I was thinking,"Geez, if I'd known that,
(04:15):
I would've done it in Texas,(laughs) and I wanted a redo,
but I don't really want a redo.
But you know, back then wedidn't have the internet,
but the Carroll Center's still doing this.
Father Carroll had seenit at Hines Rehab Center,
as vets came back from WorldWar II who were blinded,
(04:36):
they were fencing.
So it's been around a long time,
but we lost it somewhere along the way.
So friends of mine thatwe were meeting with
showed up and then they got interested,
and we got back and we did the work
that we were actually meeting about,
but one of them in the group,
(04:56):
and I kept calling fencing places,
trying to generate someinterest, you know,
because Rabia lives in California,
so he's not gonna be, you know,
useful other than over thephone advisor kind of person.
Anyway, so he explained to me that,
okay, what people do is, first of all,
(05:20):
both fencers wear blindfolds.
I don't care how much vision, no vision,
whatever-- Makes sense.
- [Pat Pound] That way,you know nobody has vision.
- Yep.
- [Pat Pound] And the uniquething about that and fencing
is most fencing coacheshave sighted people
do at least one lesson under blindfold
during their time of training.
(05:40):
And they do this because it forces people
to concentrate in a different way.
And they get it. They understand it.
And so Rabia told me that ashe travels around the country,
sometimes he gets into fencing,
and he just looks up a fencingplace and walks in cold
and says, "Is anybodywilling to fence me?"
And he says he's always foundpeople willing to fence.
(06:04):
So that's a unique thing, I think,
because people aren't scared of it.
- Yeah.- And you don't have to have
a blind person to fence with.
You don't have to have a team.
What you do have to haveas a coach. (chuckles)
And so that was our hardestthing to do locally,
is to find a coach.
And there was a gentlemanthat owned a fencing club
(06:29):
in a suburb by Austin, calledRound Rock, for 40 years.
And my colleague that wasworking with me on this
happened to call him thesecond day of his retirement.
(laughs) And so he isnow our fencing coach.
And so he was trying to learnblindness off the internet,
and so the second callI said, "Gee, Coach,
(06:50):
how about you just cometo the house (laughs)
and I'll make this alot more real for you.
We can do this a lot more quickly
and probably in a more fruitful way."
And what I didn't know is hebrought fencing gear with him.
And so I had my firstfencing lesson that day.
- Wow.
- [Pat Pound] So it evolved into,
we did a number of demo classesat our school for the blind.
(07:14):
And of course, you know,a lot of blind kids
have never seen fencing,never heard of fencing,
so they thought we weretalking about a cedar fence
or a picket fence.(pair laughs)
- What work am I gonna have todo over the weekend? (laughs)
- [Pat Pound] That's right, they said,
"Are you putting your cane over the fence
or (laughs) what are you doing?"
So a lot of it is, initially,passing around swords
(07:37):
and explaining what the differentparts are and how it works
because you don't have thatvisual information happening
to see it on TV or on the internet.
- Oh yeah.- Whatever.
Anyway, so we startedour first for-pay class.
Unfortunately,transportation is our nemesis
(07:58):
because the particularsuburb that we're good in,
from our standpoint of the fencing club,
is not good in transportation.
But also our coach tends to foster
and train teenage coaches,
so they become assistant fencing coaches,
and he's done that all of his career.
(08:19):
And so he took some of hisbetter assistant fencing coaches
and asked them if they wanted to learn
about how to be blind fencing coaches.
And they volunteered to do that.
And so (chuckles) in my class,
I have Coach Murray, who's my coach,
and then three other young people
(08:41):
who are excited to sharetheir knowledge of fencing,
and then learn best how to coach,
and how to coach blind folks,and how to be comfortable.
So we're now on my intermediate class.
We start with plastic foils,
partly because you canget 'em into schools easy
(09:01):
because they're a lot lessdangerous than the metal ones.
And, and you know, the tipsbeen, you still need masks,
but it works.
Rabia prefers metal all the way.
He says it's kinda like the difference
between a plastic, foldable,wobbly cane and a real cane.
(09:24):
- Right.- Which I can see that.
So I'm very much a newbie,
but I'm very much enjoying the experience.
And I can personally tell,
even as I walk around myneighborhood with my guide dog,
I've already applied, justbecause of muscle memory,
(09:47):
a lot of the things that are useful,
and like being on the balls of your feet.
Well, for blind people,that's tremendously useful
'cause if you step and therehappens to be a rolling stone,
you know, a little oneright under your foot,
you can go down.- Yep.
- [Pat Pound] And dog or not,
and so anything you cando that helps you not fall
(10:10):
and maintain your balance...
So I would say, in that sense,it's sort of like dancers
who use fencing to be better dancers.
And you don't have to think about it.
You don't go, "Oh yeah,I remember that thing
that they told me and da da da."
Your hands and feet have beentrained, and you just do it.
- Yep.
So there's a lot to go there.
(10:32):
So first of all, I'm gonna tell you that
I'm about an hour awayfrom the Carroll Center.
I'm assuming you're talking about like-
- [Pat Pound] Oh wow.- Austin?
Yeah, so real familiar with that.
I've been down there severaltimes, great group of people.
But also, my family's from Texas,
and lived in Austin and in Round Rock.
(pair laughs)So talking about Texas
(10:53):
and Round Rock, I'm like, we're here.
But as you-- Yeah,
we were supposed to meet.- Yeah,
we were supposed to meet,but and as you and I,
we were starting to talk about,
before we even jumped on the podcast,
I actually, I'm a longterm martial artist.
So I've been in the martial arts
since I was like 13 years old.
I'm no longer 13 years old.
So-(Pat laughs)
(11:14):
Math, I think-- Join the club.
- We'll call it 30 plus years ago.
And when I was in college, Idid several years of fencing.
So as you're talking aboutthe relationship between
fencing and orientation,because fencing's very...
So for the listeners whomaybe haven't fenced before,
(11:35):
from a combat standpoint,it's extremely linear, right?
It's almost like combat that happens
in a very narrow hallway
is kind of the easiestway to think about it.
Whereas if you watchtwo boxers fight, right?
Which would be another one-on-one,
kind of mano y mano combatsituation, it's very circular.
(11:57):
The boxers are always circling each other,
trying to avoid the powerhand and stuff like that.
But fencers, the whole sport is designed,
there's some, like with a coupe and stuff,
there's some sort of movingby the side of the person,
but the sport's designed tostay in this linear path.
So what I'm saying, Pat, is that
when you were talking abouthow it helps you oriented,
(12:18):
it makes sense because,
even as a person sighted who's fencing,
it's sometimes hard to juststay on that kind of tight rope
that you're sort of fencing on, right?
And so without the benefit of sight,
all that orientation is eventhat much more difficult.
But if you train yourselfto fence, I can really,
(12:39):
as a fencer relate to how that helps you.
And then of course the balance, you know,
being able to stay in balanceduring that linear movement
while doing something, thatrequires such dexterity,
like manipulating, and forthose of you who haven't fenced,
(13:00):
it is small, small, subtle manipulations.
If you think about the length of that foil
that Pat was talking about,a small movement of the hand
means a big movement at the tip.
So everything requires agreat deal of coordination,
a great deal of thing.
(13:20):
So, and then oddly, italso kind of makes sense
because just the articulation of a cane,
which a lot of people who areblind used to navigate with,
and to fine tune that skill with a foil
(13:42):
makes a whole lot of sense.
- [Pat Pound] Well, and also in mobility,
blind people go fromsomewhere to somewhere,
not just to somewhere, okay?
So it's a calculated movement,
even if you're lost,it's calculated. (laughs)
And the same thing is true with fencing.
(14:02):
Now things will happen along the way.
Your opponent may not be doing
what you were thinkingthey might be doing,
but that's the same thing in traffic.
You're protecting yourself
as well as trying toget to your destination,
and you're trying to do it assertively
and in time with the light,
and you know, all those kind of things.
The Carroll Center is stilldoing fencing, as is Perkins,
(14:26):
and I don't think they're emphasizing
the mobility connection as much.
They just know it, you know,they don't talk about it.
But they still do it,
and I think the two compete quite a bit.
In fact, one of the things we're gonna do
is do some competitions.
You know, we gotta geta few more people taught
so we have enough people who've learned.
(14:48):
But the other piece thatI think is important
is at least in Texas,
fencing is allowed as anout-of-class PE activity.
And what that meansis, if you're a fencer,
and instead of takingyour regular PE class,
if you wanna go to fencingoutside of your class
(15:08):
and your fencing instructor
is willing to monitor what you do,
and your parents are willingto monitor what you do,
then you can get credit.
Now it's a pass-fail credit,
it's not a great credit, for PE.
But I just think of all theblind kids that, you know,
during basketball or volleyball,
sit on the side becausethere's not a good way
(15:30):
to modify that.
And so we already have thebones for sighted people,
and I don't know why itwould be any different
for blind students-- Right.
- [Pat Pound] To go usethat as a PE activity.
- So let me ask you this, and by the way,
I picked up that subtle hint
that I should go to the Carroll Center
(15:50):
and throw a blind-(Pat laughs)
And have those guyspick on me a little bit-
- [Pat Pound] Hey sure. (laughs)
Report back.- That's right.
No, but what I wanted to ask you,
just thinking as somebodywho fenced before,
and I'm just thinking aboutkind of the mechanics of this,
so there's a lot of tactilesensitivity in fencing,
right, as you know, and that means that
(16:11):
when the foils are in contact,a lot of your understanding
of what your opponent isdoing, going to do, might do,
whatever, is throughthe tactile sensitivity.
So in that case,
sight almost becomes a secondarysense to perceive all that,
for somebody who's sighted, like myself.
(16:35):
So here's what my question is for you is
when you're not in that condition,
when you're separate from your opponent,
so that there's no contact anywhere
through your foil or elsewhere,
what senses or how are you trying to judge
and perceive what youropponent might be doing
(16:56):
before that contact is made?
- [Pat Pound] Well, first ofall, you need to be searching
because they're gonnabe searching, you know?
'Cause obviously, unless you make contact,
neither of you know muchinformation for real.
So you're trying to gain information.
You think about, you know,
where the last time you had contact was,
(17:18):
but that may not matter.
You wanna make sure thatyour foil is not horizontal
because you need to be slanted
because you have more chanceof encountering their blade.
You do little circles to try to find them.
(17:39):
And one of the things that's interesting,
by the way, Italy is really big.
You ought to do internet researchon blind fencing in Italy.
They're probably mostactive folks right now,
and they do huge competitions.
And in fact, my coachgot them to be able to do
(17:59):
a demo at the Paralympics in Paris,
which we're all really excited about.
Blind fencing is not a paralympic sport,
but we would love forthat to happen someday.
And boy, the Italians arethe people that carry it.
So we'll see what happens with that.
So you just kinda keepdoing these circles,
(18:22):
but of course, you can stepbackward and forward too.
And so sometimes youwanna move out of range,
and you know, just to see what happens.
Or maybe you have a plan for, you know,
what this particular opponent does
and some of those kind of things.
So a lot of it's guesswork,
(18:43):
but then you have to takewhatever information you get
and try to apply it to what you do.
- Yeah, that's really interesting
because if you had asked me that question,
I would've answered it the same way.
- [Pat Pound] Oh,interesting. That's cool.
- Yeah, like as a sightedperson who's fencing,
I'm using those same circular motions.
(19:05):
I'm searching for the blade,
I'm using air quotes when I say that.
I know where the bladeis because of sight,
but I guess the whole point isit doesn't stay there, right?
That other person isarticulating their blade as well.
- Right, right.- Keep constant movement,
and really to find thatblade, you have to be,
now I'm fencing, I'm makingthe motions of fencing.
(19:27):
Right, I'm getting too-(Pat laughs)
- [Pat Pound] Fingerfencing. Finger fencing.
- Finger fencing, right, but,
you know, so you're sort ofkeeping that motion going
in hopes that you encounter that blade
and get that tactile sensitivity.
And obviously you're using,distancing is a big thing,
and I would imagine distancing,could be totally wrong,
(19:50):
is a bit easier if you'resighted than blind,
and you have to use yourcontact with a sword
to understand your distance.
But one of the thingslike as a martial artist
that fencing taught me, was Ibecame way better at distance.
Right, so judging-- Ah, yes.
- Relation to a opponent andwhat's a threat, and all that.
But one of the things that's real,
(20:10):
so this is another layer Pat, right?
That as a person who's blind,
I would imagine your abilityto be sensitive with your cane
and to search with your caneand to have some dexterity
around how you're doing thatand dealing with situations
that bring up things you didn't expect
or whatever the case is,and now you're taking that
(20:32):
and you're putting that intoa much more intense situation
with something that's essentially a cane.
- [Pat Pound] Yes, it'salmost like the car's coming,
the car's coming, you'dbetter figure it out.
- Yeah.- You know. (laughs)
- That's exactly right, yeah,
but it's starting to really come together
in terms of why it's such a valuable sport
and activity for a blind person.
(20:53):
I mean, anybody's gonna benefit, right?
That's why I am lifetime martial artist-
- [Pat Pound] Right, right.
You know, and the whole respectand in honor of my coach,
the morning after my first class,
I woke up and I wassmiling and thinking about,
'cause I'd gone to some of the demo stuff,
so, you know, it wasn't...
Anyway, it was really fun,
but I met these teenagers at that class
(21:16):
and, you know, the other joy I had
was when have I hadteenagers who were excited
to tell an older person like me
about something to teachan older person like me,
something that they knew.
Well, usually it's like somebody told 'em
to go help their grandmawith their phone, you know,
(21:37):
and they'll do it, butthey're not excited about it.
These folks were excited about it.
And I have as much joy out ofwatching them grow as coaches
as I do at learning.
It's like, what's not to like about this?
- Yeah.
(21:57):
You know, that's the other aspect
that I wanted to dive down.
I'm really glad that you brought it up,
but when you mentionedthat, there's so much value,
I think, one from respect,growth, understanding standpoint,
to put young people in scenarios
where they're engaging withold people, and vice versa,
(22:19):
older people I should say, and vice versa.
And I always tellpeople, like, you know...
so, you know, full disclosure,I'm not real young either.
(pair laughs)
And people always, like, I'llhave conversations with people
and they'll be like, youknow, "Oh, they're a kid,
they don't know anything."
And I go, "Wait a minute,they know more than you."
(22:39):
And they go, "Well, whatare you talking about
they know more than you?"
And I say, "Well, this personwas introduced into this Earth
with the base level ofknowledge that you and I have.
Do they have more to learn?"
Of course they have more to learn, right?
Like, they've only beentrying to do it for 15,
16 years, or whatever.
So there's more for them to learn.
But their starting point
is so much more advancedthan our starting point.
(22:59):
And you brought it up Pat, right?
You said, "How do I use my phone?"
These kids, by the time they are eight,
are better at using their phone
than you are at using your phone, right?
So- (voice cuts out)when they're a teenager.
So that exchange of knowledge,I think as an older person,
if we're going to grow,
(23:19):
that requires interactionwith young people.
And I think if young people want to grow
and grow in better ways,
that requires not justolder people being around,
but really good positiveintention interaction.
And I think you guys havecreated an unbelievable scenario
where you can give these young people
(23:40):
senses of accomplishments.
You guys can learn from eachother and create an environment
where both people are really growing
beyond what you wouldexpect through you learning
how to fence and themlearning how to coach.
Right?- Yeah.
- So, that's really amazing.
(24:02):
And then I think, in your scenario,
it's even more Pat, right?
Because they have a real advantage
being exposed to peoplewith disabilities early on.
And they probably avoidthings like, you know,
they realize right awaythat they're dealing with
people who just happen tointeract with the world
slightly differently.- Right.
(24:23):
- What kind of questions andrevelations and, you know,
all that sort of thing do yousee from these young people
who get an opportunity to work with you?
- [Pat Pound] I think, you know,
they each have their strengths, obviously.
And I enjoy each of theirstrengths, in terms of coaching.
(24:45):
And my coach had donewell at schooling them
about how to treat blind people,how to introduce yourself.
And in fact, one thing I haven't mentioned
is that our coach, coachMurray, has just gotten approved
a course that can be delivered via Zoom
(25:05):
that will teach fencing coacheshow to coach blind folks.
- Oh, that's interesting.
- [Pat Pound] And there will be a way
that they can then getcertified under this program.
That way we can starthaving fencing coaches
who understand blind people.
And, you know, that way we canmake this thing grow beyond,
(25:27):
you know, what it is in Austin, Texas.
- Yeah, well, and that's thefast way to grow it, right?
Your reach is gonna be so-
- [Pat Pound] Well, andour coach did fencing
during the pandemic via Zoom.
And so he's got a lot of that.
In fact, he's coming over tomorrow.
He's built a little buzzer pad
(25:49):
so that I can stick it up on my wall
and then if my foiltouches it, it will buzz.
So, if I'm trying to say, you know,
I wanna go to this spot,and I put it on that spot,
and then I position myselfin different positions.
You know, and then I can walkup, if it doesn't go off,
(26:12):
I can walk up and see how far I was.
- Get that feedback, yeah,it's feedback in a couple ways.
You hit it or you didn't hit it,
and then you can walk up and-(voice cuts out) yourself,
and just different starting points
so that you're trying to hit that target
from different areas.- Right, right.
And that way, you know,'cause I'm always concerned
about at home practice, doing it wrong,
(26:32):
(laughs) because you don'twant your muscle memory,
you know, doing wrong things.
But yeah, he's had fundeveloping some things like that.
- So I teach a lot of kids inmartial arts, and adults both,
and one of the things I do periodically
is I'll do one of two things,
I'll either blindfold thewhole class, except for myself,
(26:53):
right, safety reasons.- Right.
- Or I won't allow anytalking during class,
like zero communicationverbally, through talk.
And I don't give 'em any direction.
We just run a normal classunderneath those conditions
so that they have to experimentand try to figure out,
like if I don't have thebenefit of sight, what do I do?
(27:17):
And it's very interestingbecause they'll do things like,
you know, I'll say,"Everybody go get a pad,"
and the pads are in one area of the room.
Somebody will find themand then they'll walk back
and find their partnerand they'll have their pad
and they'll be all set and everybody else
will be wandering aroundthe room, not finding a pad.
You know, so we have questions around,
well you can talk, (laughs) you know,
you don't have- (voicecuts out) can't talk,
(27:39):
but you know, why not announce it?
Why not have that be anopportunity to say, "Hey,
I found the pads, they're over here.
Follow me over here."- Yeah, yep.
- But anyways, listening to your example
about that pad that buzzes,that's really interesting.
And it starts the wheels turning
about how I could do similarthings with the kids,
(28:01):
because I think that if we cantake away that sense of sight
and we can increase that type of accuracy
and that physical awarenessof space that becomes so good-
- [Pat Pound] Well our coach says that
if you bring him into a room and say,
"Here's two fencers, whodo you wanna work with?"
And one a sighted and one is blind,
(28:21):
he will always choose the blind person.
And it's about focus,it's truly about focus,
because we can't functionwithout focus. (chuckles)
We have to focus.
And so we practice it 24/7.
Successful, (laughs) maybeunsuccessful blind people don't,
I don't know.- Yeah.
- [Pat Pound] But he says
(28:42):
it just makes a hugedifference in teaching.
- Well, and that's anothergood point that you bring out,
as soon as you don'thave one of your senses,
that concentration of focusneeds to be greater to-
- [Pat Pound] Well what he says is,
even once they do the lesson,
people realize they can do that focus
and how much it benefits them.
(29:03):
- Yeah.
That's really interesting.
Man, I'm gonna take notes after this.
(Pat laughs)
My students are in forsome treats. (laughs)
- [Pat Pound] Well youhave to come to Austin,
maybe we can fence.
- I have to come to Austin.
My niece is going to UT Austin,so I need to come visit her.
And then I- (voice cuts out) everything.
(29:24):
I got a lot of reasons.
And then, of course, Ihave to track you down
and have you probablyschool me in fencing.
It's been a few years.It was early nineties.
- [Pat Pound] Well, wemight be about equal.
Remember, I'm still a newbie, so. (laughs)
- Yeah, we might be pretty even.
(29:44):
And by even, I mean, you'reprobably better than I am.
or at least by the time Imake it, if you're not now,
by the time I make itto Austin, you will be.
- [Pat Pound] Right, right right right.
- Cool.- Should be a good match.
- So with this group of kidsthat you're talking about,
any real interestingor surprising comments
that have come out of themthat you can think of that-
- [Pat Pound] Well, one lady
has been following a couple people.
(30:06):
She's into animals, she'sin Future Farmers of America
and has a goat and apig, I think, right now.
But she's followed acouple of people online
that she's identified thatwent and got guide dogs.
And so she hopes, atsome point in her life,
to be a puppy raiser.
So they've all-
- So she should be inspiredby the whole exposure to this.
(30:29):
- [Pat Pound] Right, right.
And so they've all gottenreally good at knowing,
what my dog's supposed to be doing
and letting me know ifshe's not doing that.
She has been totally unperturbed
about me waving a sword around.
- I'd have more respect for you too
(30:51):
if you started waving a sword at me.
(pair laughs)
- I guess so.- That's when I started
to really pay attentionand mind my manners
(laughs) is when people wave-- That's right.
Well, you know, when you swim,
a lot of guide dogs think you're drowning,
you know, 'cause you flailyour arms and stuff like that.
So I had no idea howshe was gonna respond.
And luckily, the very first time
he showed me fencing stuff was at my home.
(31:13):
And so she was in a safeenvironment for her.
But yeah, she knows all thepeople now, she knows the drill.
She went to sleep the other night,
you know, so she was very comfortable
and knows what's happening.
I think the young people,
I don't guess there'sanything terribly startling
(31:35):
except they just seem so comfortable.
You know, they'recomfortable enough to joke
and talk about what'sgoing on in school and-
- Treat you like a fellowhuman being and not like a-
- [Pat Pound] Right, youdon't get there magically.
And in fact, I would say this is
probably one of the betterthings I've ever done
in my career for public relations.
(31:55):
- That's wonderful.- You know,
and public awareness, and I mean,
you work at trying to do that, and hey,
(laughs) maybe we just needto do things like fencing.
- Well, like fencing,and I think just overall,
like giving people a chance to interact
with people with disabilities.
Like, that's one of thethings I really like
about this whole thing isthat it's a ready-made excuse
(32:19):
for that interaction to occur.
And I think that-- Absolutely.
- That only breedsunderstanding, and you know,
I mean, you're inspiringpeople to raise puppies
and, you know, assume new guidedogs and that kind of thing.
Which by the way, I did do a seminar,
a jujitsu seminar that wasa mixed group of people
(32:41):
and there was a guide dog there
who got very upset with me
when I was- (voice cuts out)techniques on his owner.
So, (laughs) how those things can go.
But you can't blame the poor puppy
because he's just like,"What, what are you doing?
That's not normal."- Yeah, really.
(33:01):
This is not okay.- Hurt him,
I'm gonna hurt you.
So yeah, this is good.
You want him to be protective,
but it's also reallynice when they realize
you're enjoying yourself.
I'm sure you're in tune with the dog
and the dog really, probably pick up
your emotional state on a whole-
- Right, but I did work atplanning some of that, you know,
initially so that shehad some good exposure,
(33:22):
she knew the people,all that kind of stuff.
If you plant it, thenif something happens,
your retrieval is not nearly so hard.
- Mmhmm.
Well Pat, believe it or not,
we're already to the end of the podcast.
We need to wrap it up.
And we successfully onlytalked about fencing,
(33:46):
which I think exactly howit should have gone, right?
- [Pat Pound] Suits me.
- We talked about a lot more than fencing,
we just did it all throughthe fencing context, right?
- [Pat Pound] Correct.
- Is there anythingthat you, like any last,
you know, last words of wisdom
or anything that youwant to kind of highlight
or point out that we didn't cover?
(34:06):
- [Pat Pound] Well, notparticularly, except that, you know,
if we all take theopportunities that we have
and this one fell into my lap,
then, you know, a whole bunchof things come out of it
that were not necessarily on our list.
And I'm sure I will still get fencing
(34:26):
into the blindness world again.
You know, that will take awhile, but that will happen.
But if we all take those opportunities,
then everybody's gonnawin in the sense that
websites will be more accessible,
just because people comeout with an understanding
of disability better than they had before.
(34:48):
And you know, it's always true
that even if people don't know something,
if they're interestedand willing to learn it,
they're gonna learn it much more quickly
than if they're facinga lawsuit or a fine,
or, you know, a negative reasonthat they need to do this.
- That's a great point.
And you know, the other thing I'll say too
(35:09):
is I love the fact that in retirement,
you're diving in andlearning brand new things,
things that are physically challenging.
- [Pat Pound] Yes.
- So important that you continueto grow as a human being
and challenge yourself in any way
that you can challenge yourself.
So kudos to you for that.
I think that that's super impressive.
(35:31):
- [Pat Pound] Thank you.
- Well, thank you so much.
I wish we could just keeptalking about fencing, Pat,
but we gotta wrap up.(Pat laughing)
So this is Mark Miller, thanking Pat,
and reminding you to keep it accessible.
- [Announcer] This podcast hasbeen brought to you by TPGi,
the experts in digital accessibility.
(35:51):
Stay tuned for more "RealPeople, Real Stories" podcasts
coming soon.(upbeat music)
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