April 28, 2023 • 40 mins
Mark Miller, host, and Dara Golding, producer, speak with Heather Pressman, Director of Learning & Engagement for the Molly Brown House Museum, and Danielle Schulz, Senior Manager of Lifelong Learning and Accessibility at the Denver Art Museum.
Today, they talk about writing The Art of Access: A Practical Guide for Museum Accessibility together and how accessibility changes museums. Learn about:
- How tactile plaster model of an artwork changed Heather’s perspective on accessibility
- How a community arts center started Danielle on her accessibility journey
- How Sensory Friendly Mornings at the Denver Art Museum brings in new visitors
- How self-guided tours at the Molly Brown House are accessible
- How there are accessibility methods for all, from organizations with very little money to those with a lot
- And why Heather sent Danielle an email with the subject line, “It’s Okay to Say No”
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
(upbeat music)
- [Announcer] Welcome to TPGI's
"Real People, Real Stories" podcast,
where you'll find interestingand diverse stories
from folks working to make theworld a more inclusive place.
- Hey, welcome to the "RealPeople, Real Stories" podcast,
brought to you by TPGI.
I'm your host, Mark Miller, thanking you
(00:22):
for helping us keep it accessible.
Do us a favor.
If you're enjoying the "RealPeople, Real Stories" podcast,
share it, tell someone about it.
Hey, even link to it fromyour accessible website.
Welcome everyone.
I'm very, very excited to behere with all of you today.
Particularly excited to havemy co-host, Dara, with me.
(00:42):
Welcome, how are you?
- Doing good.
- Excellent.
And I know you're particularly excited
about our guests today.
Would you like to introduce them?
- I will, yes.
I am a big fan of museums, and both
of our guests are veryinvolved with museums.
This is Heather Pressman,and Danielle Schultz,
(01:04):
and they're here to tell usabout accessibility at museums.
- Beautiful.
- And they've written a book on it.
- They've written a whole bookon it, that's pretty good.
You're pretty serious about your museums,
if that's the case.
Well, Heather and Danielle, welcome.
We really appreciate youjoining us on the podcast today.
So I'd love to get rightinto this, and you know,
(01:24):
accessibility, obviouslythat's what we're here for.
It's a very important topic to us, and,
it's real interesting to methat you guys have zeroed
in sort of one area to be accessible.
So tell us how that cameabout, and then particularly,
how'd that, like, lead into a book?
- That's a great question.
(01:45):
(laughs)
I can start.
So we both came to accessibility
in different ways, but,
if you've read the book,the person that we talk
about in the very beginning,Jamie, was a friend
of mine when I was in college.
And so, I had this experience with her,
(02:07):
where we went to an institute
for the blind in Italy,
and she was using tactile 3-D,
their plaster cast artworks.
And the woman who wasguiding her through looking
at this painting, tookher fingers and showed her
(02:30):
how the river in thisone particular painting
got smaller as it wentback, as perspective, right?
- Right.
- And she was 40 at the time, my friend,
and that was like, you couldsee the light bulb go off.
It was the first time in herlife she truly understood
what perspective was.
- Oh wow.
(02:51):
- Which blew my mind.
(laughs)
And so, that was whatreally got me thinking
about how I was able toenjoy cultural experiences,
versus somebody like her who, you know,
if it hadn't been forthis particular support,
this particular program beingavailable, like, who knows
how long, or if she everwould've understood perspective.
(03:13):
So.
- Do you know what's reallyinteresting about that?
Is, Italy is whereperspective was discovered.
- Yeah.
(laughs)
- So perfect.
- Yeah, through, it'sabsolutely a perfect story.
And just for our listeners,if you're unfamiliar with us,
I'm gonna disclose this to you guys.
I'm an art geek too, I'mactually a fine arts major, so.
- Nice.
(03:34):
- Yeah.
- I was a minor in college.
- Hey, that's great.
(Danielle laughs)
- But, so, in the ItalianRenaissance, I believe it was,
or predating the ItalianRenaissance, the camera,
and I'm using air quoteshere, was really invented.
And basically, it wasa very dark phone booth
with a hole, tiny holepoked in the side of it.
(03:54):
And then, so cast on theother side of the wall
was an image, like a pinholecamera if everybody's heard
of that, but upside down, andthe two-dimensionalization
of the image, it was the firsttime people had seen that,
that's what gave us perspective,
and that's what launched all that.
So, it's an amazing story, that.
So, here's my question for you.
(04:17):
I'm assuming this friendof yours, Jamie, you said,
is blind, right?
- Mm-hmm.
- And this is the firstkind of aha moment,
or light bulb that goesoff where this concept
of perspective is reallyconveyed to Jamie,
in a way that, thatthey understand, right?
I guess.
(04:37):
What was, did you havea conversation of, like,
what is perspective to you?
Because the interestingthing to me, I guess,
was Jamie blind from birth, or?
- Yeah.
- Yeah, is that,
like, just even in theworld, looking down a street
in real life, as something,so what was their,
how did they describe that experience,
(04:58):
or describe that epiphany to you?
- We actually didn't reallytalk about it, and you know,
in retrospect, I wish we had.
But you know, I was just watching, like,
watching her, andwatching kind of her face,
and you know, body languageand things like that,
and having my own, like, ahamoment too, at the same time.
(05:19):
So, but yeah, that would've been
an interesting conversation to have.
- Beautiful.
And like the camera inspiredan entire artistic movement,
(laughs)
pretty much, or was responsiblefor it, this inspires you,
Heather, to think about accessibility
in the context of a art museum.
- In museums generally, yeah.
(05:41):
- In museums generally.
And then, so where does it go from there?
- So, I moved to Denver, eventually,
and had an interest inaccessibility in museums,
and really wanted to getmore deeply into that work.
And so, I basically startedcold emailing people
(06:01):
in town, including Danielle.
(laughs)
So.
- Yeah, and I kind of came from it,
I had my own kind of epiphany.
I am also an artist, artbackground, anthropology,
so I was always interestedin the role of arts
to really help people express themselves.
And when I was ingraduate school, I worked
(06:23):
at a place called The Arcof the Arts in Austin.
And it was a community artspace that really provided
amazing quality arts educationto people with disabilities,
and really, being ableto see the power of art
to help people who don'talways have a voice,
because of, either theydon't physically have one,
or because it's alwaysbeen taken away from them,
(06:44):
because seen as a personwith a disability,
they're not always incontrol of their own agenda.
And so, I really wantedto see how the arts,
and how museums could be that place.
'Cause I loved going to museums.
I had a wonderful experience,but I went to a lot
of them, and realized afterworking a lot with these folks,
that they're reallyunaccessible, and really not made
(07:08):
for diverse experiences.
And so, when I was inDenver, I was working
at The Denver Art Museum inaccessibility, and connected
with Heather, because weboth were really interested
in this, and I think what'sfascinating is that, you know,
the museum world is relatively small.
Museum education is even smaller.
And then accessibilitywithin museum education
(07:29):
is really tiny, so you doget to know the same folks.
And also, just becausethere aren't that many
of us doing this work,we're also really looking
to find those connectionsand collaborations.
And so when Heather and I started talking,
we realized that therewasn't a lot being shared
about best practices aroundmuseum accessibility.
(07:50):
And so, we started puttingour heads together,
and saying, well whatcan we do to help this?
And so, we kind of cameup with a presentation
that was kind of, what are10 ways that you can make
your museum more accessible?
And we started kind of taking that out
to different museum conferences,small scale, up all the way
(08:11):
to the American Allianceof Museums Conference,
which is kind of the likeannual big museum meeting.
And it was just fascinating,'cause as I said,
we just kept talkingto more and more people
who were enthused, and werelike, yeah, I don't have anyone
to talk to about this typeof stuff, and I don't know
where to go when starting this.
And so we realized therewas really a need to have
(08:33):
just a single place to havea lot of this information,
because we would reallyjust be calling each other,
and being like, do you know about this?
Do you know about that?
Oh, okay, I found this article.
Or I, you know, have this groupthat I've been talking with.
And so, it was really just trying
to kind of connect the dots.
- What do you find are some of the unique
(08:53):
accessibility challenges to a museum?
You know, or museum, or the experience
of experiencing art,or something like that?
Like, I guess that top 10 listthat you're talking about.
Like kind of, what kindof stuff falls in that?
- Yeah.
I mean, I think what what's interesting,
too, is, Heather and I come from similar
(09:15):
but different perspectives,which is great,
is that, I'm more, much more arts,
and she's historic in history and so.
But with both of them,there's, I think this,
in some ways, this kind of set expectation
on how you do things.
Well we've been doing thingslike this forever and ever,
so that's how we have tocontinue it, so that even though
we're in these creativefields, there's sometimes,
(09:39):
yeah, kind of an ignorance of like, well,
can we try something different,
or could we do something different?
And that comes a lot with,I think the kind of fear
of like, oh, you can try something.
Go ahead, Heather.
- Oh I was gonna say, yeah, I mean,
historians and preservationistsare absolutely the worst.
(laughs)
(10:00):
Because, this is howwe've always done things,
like, that's historical,so why should we change?
- Makes sense for a historian, doesn't it?
- Right.
- Well, I guess that makes me wonder,
how do you pitch it to them?
That like, change in thisarea, even if in no other area,
how do you pitch that,change in this area is good,
and you should do it?
Like how, what's the wayyou convince them of that?
(10:21):
- Yeah, so I mean, likeDanielle said, you know,
we had done this presentation, and we saw
that there was an interest,and so it's actually not,
it's not hard to get people interested.
The bigger barrier is, just getting them
to understand that like,it doesn't take millions
of dollars to do this.
Like, it can, and if you have it, great.
Spend it.
(laughs)
(10:42):
You know, but one ofthe things that we sort
of preach a lot, is, it's better
to do something than nothing.
And so, and there's a tonof free and low cost things
that you can do, to evenjust get the ball rolling
at your organization.
I reminded Danielle of amemory that I had from one
of the first times wedid the presentation,
(11:04):
which was, little oldlady who came up to us,
and was like, I work at avolunteer-run historic site
in, you know, the westernslope of Colorado.
Here's my problem, like, what do I do?
She's like, cause we don't have any money.
And so we helped, youknow, give her a few ideas
to at least get somethinggoing, so that she could
get more buy-in from thepeople who she works with.
(11:27):
- Mm-hmm.
But I think to your question, Dara,
of, what are the things we do, and,
we do this from the beginning of the book,
we also got inspirationof this from Betty Siegel,
who is a great proponentfrom the Kennedy Center
on accessibility, and, it'sthese kind of five pillars
of, you know, number one,it's the right thing to do.
(11:48):
Right?
Like you want to be, people need
to be able to access things.
But then, because even thoughmuseums are nonprofits,
and so they are mission-basedand vision-based,
you do still have tospeak to the bottom line.
So you also have tomake the business case.
And the business case isthat, one in four people
in North America havesome sort of disability.
(12:10):
So then, regardless of whatstate or city you're in,
you can look at demographicsand you can say,
this is X amount ofpeople who are not coming
to your museum if it is inaccessible.
And then, expanding uponthat is, what are the friends
and families of folkswho have disabilities,
who are also not coming, because they know
that their loved one,or their family member
(12:31):
has been excluded, so they're not coming.
So if you're saying, this isreally an untapped audience,
or like, an undertapped audience,
that you can really engage with.
Then of course, there's the legality,
you know, and that's beencoming into stark clarity
over the past couple years,especially around online
(12:52):
and digital accessibilityof people's websites,
and making sure that those are legal,
'cause people can be sued for that.
So those are the ways thatwe really try and pitch it
of, getting people onboard, and to understanding.
But then to Heather's point,once people are there,
then it can become overwhelming.
(13:12):
Because if you don't start incrementally,
it's like, how do you gofrom zero to a hundred?
That becomes overwhelming,and a lot of places, honestly,
We'll just stop and just say,it's too much, we can't do it.
And so what we've triedto do in the book, is,
to portion out, like, hereare just incremental steps
you can do, that any museum of any size,
(13:32):
any scope and scale can do.
And to Heather's point,on the range of, really
on the cheap, to having a lot more money.
And that's, again, whereit's interesting to think
of that, you can't use that as an excuse
if you're a small volunteer-run museum.
Well, we have no support.
Like nope, you can still do something.
- Yeah.
Dara and I are noddingour heads, because like,
(13:57):
you're just sitting there point by point,
saying, essentially, the exact same things
that we do in digital accessibility.
- Yeah, like that is the TPGI marketing.
- That's the yeah, that's the way it is.
And I think one of themost important aspects
of all this, is thatconcept of doing something.
(14:18):
That you're, you know,you're absolutely right.
Whether it's digital accessibility,
whether it's the accessibility of museums
or anything, improvementis just incredibly valuable
in and of itself, and perfection is sort
of, just like a fool's game, right?
- Yeah.
- Like if you sit there andgo, we gotta be perfection,
we gotta do everything, like of course,
you're gonna be overwhelmed, so.
(14:41):
- And it's almost impossible, right?
- It is impossible.
- 'Cause what is gonna beperfect now, in five years,
is gonna be totally different.
- And that's exactly, Imean, and you think about
how rapid, like, development is, right?
Like, your five years is our few months.
- Exactly, yeah.
- So it is important to do something,
and it's also important to dosomething that's sustainable,
(15:02):
and it's important tocontinue to keep an eye on it,
and your reasons, Imean, you're, you know.
It's the right thing, the ROI behind it,
you know, one out of fourpeople with disabilities.
Like, it just that, theway you're evangelizing,
I think is just transferrableall over the place.
And it's fantastic to see it being used
in specific scenarios like yours.
(15:27):
- Curious.
- So I dunno if you have anyquestions, Dara, but I'm,
I'm dying to find out, like,how did you go to like,
we're interested in this,like, hey, let's write a book.
Right?
Like, that's a huge thing.
- Yeah, that was Heather, man.
- Yeah.
(Heather laughs)
- Heather's our, like,hey you wanna try this?
Hey, you wanna try this?
- Yeah, yeah.
(15:47):
I was at the American Allianceof Museums Conference,
and they had posters aroundthat were basically like,
hey, have a book idea?
Pitch it to us.
So I remember gettingback from the conference,
and sending Danielle an email,and I think the subject line
was something along the linesof like, it's okay to say no,
(laughs)
or tell me I've lost my mind.
(16:10):
- Am I nuts for doing this?
- Right.
- I said, so, here's what I saw.
What do you think?
And they, you know, theywere very enthusiastic
about the pitch idea, and so we you know,
spent a year-ish,
writing the book,
(16:32):
it was definitely a labor of love.
Lots of late nights, but.
- Yeah.
Yeah.
- So, but totally worth it.
So.
Yeah, I mean we reallytook the presentation
that we had been doing, and broke it
into chapters more or less.
(16:53):
We changed a few things,but, that was sort
of how we approachedthe publisher with it,
and said, you know, here's our idea.
Here's why it's important.
What do you think?
- And I think what.
- And fortunately, they said yes.
(laughs)
- Yeah, yeah, fortunately, fortunately.
And I think what really, andnow after reflecting on it,
since it's been out forover a year, and looking
(17:14):
at other books in thefield, it is, you know,
it is narrow that it's museums.
But of course, I think youcould still make the case
that it's for culturalsector organizations.
'Cause I have folks inthe botanic gardens field
who have talked abouthow it's been impactful,
libraries, but that whatI think our book does
(17:37):
that is different, is that,it's much more practical.
I mean that's in the title, right?
Practical.
(Danielle laughs)
- Have we said the title?
- Oh, yeah, we should say a title.
- They're like, what isthis book that's on here?
- Dara, you say the title.
You've probably alreadystarted reading the book.
- It sounds silly.
I never actually wrote down the title.
(17:58):
- Yes, you did.
You gave it to me.
- There we go, Heather has it.
- Really, I did?
- "The Art of Access (18:04):
A Practical Guide
"For Museum Accessibility."
I guess I could have read it from there,
instead of over here, I know.
- It's all good.
- Yeah, you did.
But if you're like me, you just, you know.
Speaking of disabilitieswith my ADD, and my dyslexia,
stuff jumps outta my head like that.
- That's okay, yeah.
- I've gotta have notes.
(18:26):
But yeah, so that's, so the practical,
the word practical in that title
is really where you guys were focused.
- Yeah, 'cause we really wanted to focus
on the audience being peoplelike us, who are actually
in the museum field, who want to do this.
Because what happens alot, I think it's changing,
but what happens a lot, is,there's usually one person
who works in a museum,and access has been added
(18:48):
on to what they're doing.
So you work in education, usually.
Okay.
Accessibility is alsogonna be part of your job.
And because of that, it's usually people
who don't always have experience,
they might have a lot of passion,
but it's really hardto know where to start.
And so, that's what we wantedto provide, was something
for people, who, eitherthey're starting out,
(19:10):
or they're like us and they'vebeen doing it for a while,
but they really wanna know the practical.
The theory, as we said at the beginning.
Like the why?
People get the why.
But then it's that next step that, really,
we didn't see a resource for,
and that's what wereally wanted to provide.
And yes, Heather said, thankfully, people.
And we've gotten some good feedback,
(19:30):
that it has been helpful, which is great.
And it's also opened up, you know,
I think great conversations,which is what a book should do,
of like, well what else could you explore?
Or, what more resources are there?
Or, what other questions are not answered?
- Well I'm actually curious to bounce back
to what you said earlierabout, that it can help
(19:52):
more people be able to go to the museum,
and enjoy the museum.
You, I read up on how youdid low sensory mornings
at the Denver Art Museum.
And did you, when you werethere, did you see people
who had never showed upto the museum before,
being there during that time?
I'd love to hear more about that.
(20:13):
- Absolutely.
Yeah, so our low sensory mornings,
that are now called sensory friendly,
are really intended to betimes when the museum was open,
and really, just dedicated topeople with neurodiversity,
or folks who either areon the autism spectrum,
or have some sort ofsensory sensitivities.
And I would say, by far, the vast majority
(20:36):
of people coming wouldbe first time visitors
who never felt comfortablecoming to an art museum.
'Cause that is what isunique, is, there's a lot
of these types of programsat children's museums,
at history museums, natureand science museums,
'cause those are alwaysseen as much more hands-on,
family-friendly museums.
And art museums justaren't, 'cause art museums,
for the longest time, andwe're still really pushing
(20:58):
against that, are seen asthis white box place that is
for people who have PhDs inart history, and you have
to know a certain amount,and you're not supposed
to talk, you're not supposed to touch,
you're not supposed to do anything.
And so we, when we started the program,
and we really thought abouthow are we creating a space
that's welcoming andbarrier-free for folks
(21:20):
who just don't feel comfortable in this?
You know, we turn down thesounds, we turn down the lights
as much as possible, welimit how many people can
be in this space, we'retraining the staff who are there
to make sure to understand howthey are approaching people
if they do need to speak with them.
We're providing, like, fidgetsand other hands-on materials
(21:43):
that if people need themduring their visit, they can,
to just accommodate them.
And we've seen just wild success.
But it is mostly first-time visitors.
We're starting to see people coming back,
and return visitors, whichis the sign of success.
Because part of it is, wewanted to build up a confidence
in coming back, and saying, I feel like
(22:05):
this is a space for me.
Because, it's hard.
And I mean, Heather canspeak to this, 'cause she's,
you know, she's a mother ofa neurodiverse son, and so
she knows that it's tough cominginto places like my museum.
(Danielle laughs)
- He's also seven, so.
(laughs)
(22:25):
But yeah, yeah, there are certain places
that we just don't go because it's,
it's too hard for us as a family,
to have a good experience all around,
which just means that yeah,there's certain places
that we just don't go.
(22:45):
But when places do have
supports in place, specialized programs,
things like that, it makesit a little bit easier.
And just also, from a parent perspective,
it's great to be around people who get it.
Like that's honestly,like, part of why some
(23:07):
of the places that we don't go to,
it's because we justdon't wanna have to deal
with the people who don't get it.
- You just wanna have a,
for lack of a better way tosay it, a regular experience,
and you don't wannahave to explain yourself
all the time, over and over again, yeah.
So there's somethingthat we talk about a lot
(23:27):
in digital accessibilitycalled the Curb Cutout Effect.
Right?
And you got, so you're nodding your heads.
So listeners, if you're not familiar
with the Curb CutoutEffect, it's this phenomenon
where curb cutouts, thoselittle kind of tiny ramps
in the sidewalk werecreated, primarily for people
in wheelchairs, and thatneeded that ramp access versus,
you know, they couldn'tstep up over a bump.
(23:48):
And the reason why it'scalled the Curb Cutout Effect,
is because, people withoutdisabilities started using it.
Right?
Pushing strollers,roller bags right up it,
they even did a studywhere 80 something percent
of people without a reason to use it,
just somebody walking would move over
to the curb cutout towalk up, versus stepping
up on the curb, right?
(24:11):
So, it's a case where,making accommodation
for a person with adisability actually created
something valuable to everyone, right?
So listening to you, listeningto you talk, you know,
Heather, about sort ofyou as a family, and then,
and Danielle, this idea of access,
(24:32):
and you made a really interesting comment
about like, people felt like they have
to have a PhD to go to a museum.
In a way, there's almost an access issue
across the board, sometimes, in museums.
Like, just from thatperception standpoint.
This is my long-winded wayof asking, have you seen,
(24:53):
through this effort, kindof a curb cutout effect?
Have you seen people whomaybe don't have disabilities,
or just are adjacent tosomebody with a disability kind
of have that first time experience,
and realize that they can go to a museum
and enjoy it, that hadn't before?
(25:14):
We're all thinking.
- It's a good question, yeah, I'm trying
to think if there's, I mean.
- I mean maybe you haven't, like.
- I have, I also justrealized I talk a ton.
We're both educators, so I'm trying
to make space for Heather.
Yes.
- You and I both, you and I both.
Right?
I'm always trying to stayquiet, so Dara can jump in.
- I know.
(25:35):
- But I have seen it interms of wall labels.
And so, I think thisis a really good thing,
and of course I'm gonna sing the praises
of my museum, 'causeI've been working there
for seven years, so they'redoing something right.
But we have a style guide
for our labels, and Ihonestly, I cannot remember
when it was instated, but,we did go across the board
(25:57):
and said, labels needto be designed in a way
that, essentially, it's people
with like an eighth grade education.
- Yes, I'm so passionateabout this as a concept.
- You know about that, right.
And like, it seems, andeven I think, we might have
even taken away the eighthgrade, 'cause that's, even
in itself, could belimiting and a barrier.
(26:18):
But it's saying, if you'reusing art vocabulary,
how are you explaining it?
How are you making sure that the content
is something that people can engage with?
Because if not, yes,there are some people who,
they go to a museumand you wanna just look
at whatever it is,whether it's the artwork,
whether it's the space, and then
you read the label secondary.
(26:39):
But some people, they want to read that
to get more information.
And so when we do have that,how are you making sure
that everyone, or thatthe most people possible
are able to engage and understand?
And that is somethingthat I don't think came,
specifically fromaccessibility, but it was
this understanding of like,how are we just making sure
(27:01):
that the most people can use this?
So kind of like the curb cut.
- It was the, yeah, itwas the attitude shifts
that started to benefit.
- Yeah, it was, and I thinkit was seeing, you know,
that we were hearing, again and again,
that people were seeingus as very exclusionary,
very elitist, and you know,
and if you're a museum that is meant
(27:23):
to be for your community,and then you also
see that, again, the bottom line.
You see ticket sales goingdown, and people not coming,
and so you're like, well let'sput two and two together.
- Yeah, and I can appreciate that because,
you know, my wife,like, just flat out sort
of gets annoyed and Ithink has stopped asking me
what I think in a museum, because I start
(27:44):
to prattle on like the, you know,
fine arts major that I am, and she's like,
I just thought it looked good.
(Mark laughs)
- Right.
- You know?
Like, all those words, allthat stuff you just said,
it doesn't matter to me.
- Yeah, which is like, it's fine.
Yeah.
- But she's expressingexactly what you expressed.
She's saying, hey, all thatstuff is not accessible
to me, and it doesn'tenhance my enjoyment of it.
(28:06):
And, but it's been very good.
I mean, all joking aside,it means that we've had
to come to, you know,there's a place there,
where if the language is changed,
if the way I speak about itis changed, and accessible
to her, she actually can, you know,
we can meet somewhere in the middle.
- Right.
- And create enjoyment, and it sounds like
(28:30):
that's exactly what youguys are trying to do
with everyone, not justpeople with disabilities,
particularly people with disabilities.
- Yeah.
- But what I'll say, oh, go ahead.
- Oh, go ahead.
- No, no, no, no, no.
I'm switching gears a little bit.
(Heather laughs)
- No, I was gonna say,we had something similar.
I mean, one of the silverlinings of COVID was that,
so I work at a historichouse, and, you know,
(28:52):
pre-COVID, the only way to see the house
was a 45-minute guided touroffered every half an hour.
And when we came back frombeing closed, we were like,
we can't have staff and volunteers
in those positions leading tour groups.
So, we actually shiftedto a self-guided tour,
and it's been interesting, because,
(29:13):
we now have guided andself-guided options available,
but the self-guidedoption is a great choice
for people, because you know,like I always recommend it
whenever I get emails about,you know, if we have people
who have sensory sensitivitiesor something like that,
I'm like, you can move at your own pace.
Like, you know, things like that.
(29:34):
If you know, like your wifewanted to just see the house,
and not stop and read everything,like, that's an option,
and then they can rejoin.
So there's just so much more flexibility.
- I'll let her know.
- Yeah.
(Heather laughs)
Yeah, next time you're in Denver.
So, I'm glad that we've kept it,
because I do think itmakes it more accessible
(29:55):
to a variety of people, andthen the other interesting thing
that we saw coming back,once we started offering
the self-guided tours wasthat, we saw an increase
in, like, Hispanic families coming, which,
we have no idea if that'sbecause it's self-guided,
or what it is, but it was aninteresting shift that we saw
(30:16):
only once we startedoffering self-guided tours.
- Hmm, that is interesting.
It'd be interesting to find out why.
- So your place is calledthe Molly Brown House.
Right?
- Mm-hmm.
- Who is Molly Brown?
I've been wondering that.
(Dara laughs)
- So Margaret Tobin Brown is best known
for surviving the sinking of the Titanic.
(30:36):
She was a first class passenger,
but she was not always wealthy.
She was born to Irish immigrant parents.
And then she ended up marrying a miner
who happened to invest, slash,
to help find the largest vein of gold
(30:56):
and high yield copper in North America
at that point in time, andso they became very wealthy
in a short amount of time, but yeah.
Mostly she's known forsurviving the Titanic,
but she did a lot to help women's rights,
workers' rights, she helped establish
the juvenile justice system in Denver,
things like that, so.
(31:16):
She did a lot.
(Heather laughs)
More than we can tellyou in a 45 minute tour.
- And that's in Denver?
- Mm-hmm.
- Interesting, that'san interesting story.
- So, the house is a Victorian, you know,
home that's been restored to about 1910.
- We could, you know,if we could turn this
(31:37):
into a history podcast, I think we could
just go down a deep rabbit hole there.
I kinda want to, but.
- Oh yeah, I could talkabout Margaret for hours.
(Heather laughs)
- I'm sure.
- So one thing I wantedto, I know this is kind
of backtracking, but you mentioning
that kind of curb cut effect.
What I think is of interest is, seeing
(31:57):
how we've been promotingmore accessible practices,
and awareness, andunderstanding has also reached
to our staff.
So what's been interestingis, I think we're always
so focused on visitors,and their accessibility,
and their importance,and now I think museums
are reflecting a lot more internally.
(32:17):
And so, an example isthat we have, started
with our sensory friendlymornings, but we have
these sensory bags, or sensorytools that we provide folks
who come to visit.
And a lot of museums have these.
The Molly Brown House has these items too,
that people can engage with.
They might look likenoise reducing headphones,
weighted lap pads, weighted neck pads,
(32:40):
fidgets, things like that.
But as we were talking tostaff about rolling these out,
making sure that we'd havethese available for visitors,
some of our staff, andespecially our front facing staff
who are working a lot with visitors said,
hey, actually we're really,could we have some of these?
Like, we would actually really need them.
And I think that's important,if, again, we're saying
one in four people in NorthAmerica has a disability,
(33:02):
that means one in fourstaff that are working
at these organizations are having them.
So I think that's aninteresting shift, is that,
focusing a lot on whatwe're providing for visitors
is also building theawareness in HR of like,
how are we also supporting accessibility
of our staff, and especiallythose with disabilities
to feel confident in their work?
(33:25):
And that's just been an interesting,
yeah, kind of increase.
- I know we're getting closerto the end, so I wanted
to make sure we talk aboutthis before we finish.
I read up, Heather, aboutthe accessibility lounge
that you have at the Molly Brown House.
And I just wanted, Iwanted to hear you talk
about that a bit, andand share with everyone.
(33:45):
- Yeah.
So like I said, pre-COVID, the only way
to see the house was on this guided tour.
As a historic house, we try to be
as accessible as we can, but you know,
we're limited to keepingthe historic integrity
of the house intact.
(34:05):
So only the main floor of the house,
and then our basement exhibition space
is accessible to peoplewho have mobility devices,
or just can't do the stairs.
So, the board made thedecision to actually
install a lift that goesto those two spaces,
(34:29):
removing part of the back porch area,
which didn't really have a whole lot
of historic significance, so, that's why.
(Heather laughs)
But you know, we wanted tocreate this welcoming space
for people to hang out and wait
while they waited to rejoin their tour.
So we have a historic bookcase back there
(34:50):
that's got some exhibitcases, essentially,
like installed on the shelves.
We have a box with tactilethings that you would see
up on the second and third floors.
So two of the historicbedrooms have actually damask,
we say damask wallpaper, butit's really just damask fabric.
(35:11):
So samples of that, we've got some pieces
of plaster rose up that youwould see on the ceiling,
like around the light fixtures.
Some of the light switches'cause we have like,
four different kinds oflight switches in the house.
So there's like the push button kind,
which are always fun to play with.
You know, a variety oftactile elements like that.
(35:33):
And then we worked with a volunteer
who had a videography background to create
a video tour of thesecond and third floor,
which we just, we have aniPad stand, and an iPad,
and we just put it onthere and people can choose
which room they wannalook at, and you know,
it basically shows youeverything you would've seen
(35:54):
had you gone up to those spaces.
So while we can't makeit physically accessible
for everybody to get upthere, you know, our goal was
to create as equitableexperience as we could.
- Nice.
Well we do have to start wrapping up.
Before we do, Dara, is there anything else
that you're dying to know?
(36:15):
- I would like to know,you know, since TPGI
is a digital accessibilitycompany, I am curious about,
when you look at museum'swebsites, when you're talking
about accessibility,what are the most common
accessibility errors that you've seen?
- Ugh, yeah.
- Contrast.
- Yep, yep.
(36:36):
Contrast is so hard, 'cause everything has
to be beautiful, and so there'salways really fun colors.
I think not having alt text.
Honestly, if that's somethingthat you guys would want
to do as a big project, is like, figuring
out best practices for describing artworks
(36:56):
in a short alt text format.
'Cause that is so difficult,and it's on staff to do it.
And it's like, how you'recondensing something that's so,
it's so abstract in someways, and so complex,
into something that couldbe just easily digestible.
(37:17):
I think that's really,that's really tough.
- Yeah.
I'm really imagining thatfor like, some art pieces.
That would be like.
- It's really tough.
- For like, for abstractpieces of art, you know,
that are like, it's all about the vibes.
How do you express the vibe, like?
- Exactly, yeah.
(Dara laughs)
- Well, and do you expressthe vibe, or do you
create the same opportunityto interpret a vibe, because?
(37:39):
- Yeah.
- That is where.
- I don't wanna beat your vibe, right?
- Exactly.
And that's where honestly,yeah, another 45 minute podcast
to be about, how do you interpret?
Because right, like if you're wanting
to provide an equitable experience,
you just describe how, what it looks like.
But then when you're in themuseum, you do have ways
where people tell you abouttheir interpretation, so.
- So my next disclosureabout myself here, that I've,
(38:02):
I didn't really hold itback, I just forgot about it.
I spent five years publishing a magazine
on art, theater, literature,music, and was the art writer.
So I feel like maybe I'm the one.
- Hey, you're the one.
- The two sides of it.
- Let's talk after this.
(Danielle laughs)
- I'm gonna send you some artwork.
- Yeah.
(38:23):
- Well great.
Is there anything Heather and Danielle,
that you guys, that you'dlike to wrap up with?
Unfortunately, we can't sit here.
I feel like we could sit hereand talk about accessibility
longer and then we couldjust sort of move right
into history for a while, and then hey,
let's wrap it up with art.
But we can't do that.
Maybe those are spinoff podcasts.
(38:44):
- Exactly.
- Is there anything elsethat we just didn't,
that you wanna make sure people are left
with, either emphasize, orthat we didn't quite hit?
- I mean, I think the otherthing that we, you know,
we always say doing somethingis better than doing nothing,
but also just a reminderthat the ADA is like
the bare minimum of whatyou should be doing.
(39:04):
There's a couple of great sortof ways to think about that.
And you know, one as wesay, you'll hear like,
it's the bottom floor,it's not the ceiling.
But one I heard recently,which I just love,
and I think is really easyfor people to conceptualize,
is that, you know, doing thebare minimum the ADA requires
of you, is like getting a D in class.
(39:26):
It's enough to pass.
- It's the A-D-A.
(Dara laughs)
That's good.
- And then, yeah, in additionto that, it's just that
every accessibility iseverybody's responsibility.
It's not just the person whohas it as part of their title.
It is the tech team doingdigital accessibility.
(39:48):
It is the educators, it's the accountants
making sure that they're,you know, having vendors
who maybe are fromdisability-owned organizations,
things like that.
'Cause I think so much it can be like,
well that's not my job,that's someone else's.
And trying to say, this iseveryone's responsibility.
It's important, but.
(40:09):
- And the only thing thatI would add to that, Mark,
is that accessibility is ongoing.
It's not just like, checka box and you're done.
Like it's something thatyou need to continually
be thinking about and reviewing.
- Beautiful, wonderful points to end on.
What a fun discussion.
I really, really appreciate it.
(40:30):
And it's always great to get on the phone
with accessibility, and art geeks,
and history geeks too, right?
- Yeah.
- So thank you so much.
This is Mark thankingHeather, Danielle, and Dara,
and reminding you to keep it accessible.
(upbeat music)
- [Announcer] This podcasthas been brought to you
by TPGI, the experts indigital accessibility.
(40:53):
Stay tuned for more "RealPeople, Real Stories"
podcasts coming soon.
(upbeat music)
- [Announcer] Welcome to TPGI's
"Real People, Real Stories" podcast,
where you'll find interestingand diverse stories
from folks working to make theworld a more inclusive place.
- Hey, welcome to the "RealPeople, Real Stories" podcast,
brought to you by TPGI.
I'm your host, Mark Miller, thanking you
(00:22):
for helping us keep it accessible.
Do us a favor.
If you're enjoying the "RealPeople, Real Stories" podcast,
share it, tell someone about it.
Hey, even link to it fromyour accessible website.
Welcome everyone.
I'm very, very excited to behere with all of you today.
Particularly excited to havemy co-host, Dara, with me.
(00:42):
Welcome, how are you?
- Doing good.
- Excellent.
And I know you're particularly excited
about our guests today.
Would you like to introduce them?
- I will, yes.
I am a big fan of museums, and both
of our guests are veryinvolved with museums.
This is Heather Pressman,and Danielle Schultz,
(01:04):
and they're here to tell usabout accessibility at museums.
- Beautiful.
- And they've written a book on it.
- They've written a whole bookon it, that's pretty good.
You're pretty serious about your museums,
if that's the case.
Well, Heather and Danielle, welcome.
We really appreciate youjoining us on the podcast today.
So I'd love to get rightinto this, and you know,
(01:24):
accessibility, obviouslythat's what we're here for.
It's a very important topic to us, and,
it's real interesting to methat you guys have zeroed
in sort of one area to be accessible.
So tell us how that cameabout, and then particularly,
how'd that, like, lead into a book?
- That's a great question.
(01:45):
(laughs)
I can start.
So we both came to accessibility
in different ways, but,
if you've read the book,the person that we talk
about in the very beginning,Jamie, was a friend
of mine when I was in college.
And so, I had this experience with her,
(02:07):
where we went to an institute
for the blind in Italy,
and she was using tactile 3-D,
their plaster cast artworks.
And the woman who wasguiding her through looking
at this painting, tookher fingers and showed her
(02:30):
how the river in thisone particular painting
got smaller as it wentback, as perspective, right?
- Right.
- And she was 40 at the time, my friend,
and that was like, you couldsee the light bulb go off.
It was the first time in herlife she truly understood
what perspective was.
- Oh wow.
(02:51):
- Which blew my mind.
(laughs)
And so, that was whatreally got me thinking
about how I was able toenjoy cultural experiences,
versus somebody like her who, you know,
if it hadn't been forthis particular support,
this particular program beingavailable, like, who knows
how long, or if she everwould've understood perspective.
(03:13):
So.
- Do you know what's reallyinteresting about that?
Is, Italy is whereperspective was discovered.
- Yeah.
(laughs)
- So perfect.
- Yeah, through, it'sabsolutely a perfect story.
And just for our listeners,if you're unfamiliar with us,
I'm gonna disclose this to you guys.
I'm an art geek too, I'mactually a fine arts major, so.
- Nice.
(03:34):
- Yeah.
- I was a minor in college.
- Hey, that's great.
(Danielle laughs)
- But, so, in the ItalianRenaissance, I believe it was,
or predating the ItalianRenaissance, the camera,
and I'm using air quoteshere, was really invented.
And basically, it wasa very dark phone booth
with a hole, tiny holepoked in the side of it.
(03:54):
And then, so cast on theother side of the wall
was an image, like a pinholecamera if everybody's heard
of that, but upside down, andthe two-dimensionalization
of the image, it was the firsttime people had seen that,
that's what gave us perspective,
and that's what launched all that.
So, it's an amazing story, that.
So, here's my question for you.
(04:17):
I'm assuming this friendof yours, Jamie, you said,
is blind, right?
- Mm-hmm.
- And this is the firstkind of aha moment,
or light bulb that goesoff where this concept
of perspective is reallyconveyed to Jamie,
in a way that, thatthey understand, right?
I guess.
(04:37):
What was, did you havea conversation of, like,
what is perspective to you?
Because the interestingthing to me, I guess,
was Jamie blind from birth, or?
- Yeah.
- Yeah, is that,
like, just even in theworld, looking down a street
in real life, as something,so what was their,
how did they describe that experience,
(04:58):
or describe that epiphany to you?
- We actually didn't reallytalk about it, and you know,
in retrospect, I wish we had.
But you know, I was just watching, like,
watching her, andwatching kind of her face,
and you know, body languageand things like that,
and having my own, like, ahamoment too, at the same time.
(05:19):
So, but yeah, that would've been
an interesting conversation to have.
- Beautiful.
And like the camera inspiredan entire artistic movement,
(laughs)
pretty much, or was responsiblefor it, this inspires you,
Heather, to think about accessibility
in the context of a art museum.
- In museums generally, yeah.
(05:41):
- In museums generally.
And then, so where does it go from there?
- So, I moved to Denver, eventually,
and had an interest inaccessibility in museums,
and really wanted to getmore deeply into that work.
And so, I basically startedcold emailing people
(06:01):
in town, including Danielle.
(laughs)
So.
- Yeah, and I kind of came from it,
I had my own kind of epiphany.
I am also an artist, artbackground, anthropology,
so I was always interestedin the role of arts
to really help people express themselves.
And when I was ingraduate school, I worked
(06:23):
at a place called The Arcof the Arts in Austin.
And it was a community artspace that really provided
amazing quality arts educationto people with disabilities,
and really, being ableto see the power of art
to help people who don'talways have a voice,
because of, either theydon't physically have one,
or because it's alwaysbeen taken away from them,
(06:44):
because seen as a personwith a disability,
they're not always incontrol of their own agenda.
And so, I really wantedto see how the arts,
and how museums could be that place.
'Cause I loved going to museums.
I had a wonderful experience,but I went to a lot
of them, and realized afterworking a lot with these folks,
that they're reallyunaccessible, and really not made
(07:08):
for diverse experiences.
And so, when I was inDenver, I was working
at The Denver Art Museum inaccessibility, and connected
with Heather, because weboth were really interested
in this, and I think what'sfascinating is that, you know,
the museum world is relatively small.
Museum education is even smaller.
And then accessibilitywithin museum education
(07:29):
is really tiny, so you doget to know the same folks.
And also, just becausethere aren't that many
of us doing this work,we're also really looking
to find those connectionsand collaborations.
And so when Heather and I started talking,
we realized that therewasn't a lot being shared
about best practices aroundmuseum accessibility.
(07:50):
And so, we started puttingour heads together,
and saying, well whatcan we do to help this?
And so, we kind of cameup with a presentation
that was kind of, what are10 ways that you can make
your museum more accessible?
And we started kind of taking that out
to different museum conferences,small scale, up all the way
(08:11):
to the American Allianceof Museums Conference,
which is kind of the likeannual big museum meeting.
And it was just fascinating,'cause as I said,
we just kept talkingto more and more people
who were enthused, and werelike, yeah, I don't have anyone
to talk to about this typeof stuff, and I don't know
where to go when starting this.
And so we realized therewas really a need to have
(08:33):
just a single place to havea lot of this information,
because we would reallyjust be calling each other,
and being like, do you know about this?
Do you know about that?
Oh, okay, I found this article.
Or I, you know, have this groupthat I've been talking with.
And so, it was really just trying
to kind of connect the dots.
- What do you find are some of the unique
(08:53):
accessibility challenges to a museum?
You know, or museum, or the experience
of experiencing art,or something like that?
Like, I guess that top 10 listthat you're talking about.
Like kind of, what kindof stuff falls in that?
- Yeah.
I mean, I think what what's interesting,
too, is, Heather and I come from similar
(09:15):
but different perspectives,which is great,
is that, I'm more, much more arts,
and she's historic in history and so.
But with both of them,there's, I think this,
in some ways, this kind of set expectation
on how you do things.
Well we've been doing thingslike this forever and ever,
so that's how we have tocontinue it, so that even though
we're in these creativefields, there's sometimes,
(09:39):
yeah, kind of an ignorance of like, well,
can we try something different,
or could we do something different?
And that comes a lot with,I think the kind of fear
of like, oh, you can try something.
Go ahead, Heather.
- Oh I was gonna say, yeah, I mean,
historians and preservationistsare absolutely the worst.
(laughs)
(10:00):
Because, this is howwe've always done things,
like, that's historical,so why should we change?
- Makes sense for a historian, doesn't it?
- Right.
- Well, I guess that makes me wonder,
how do you pitch it to them?
That like, change in thisarea, even if in no other area,
how do you pitch that,change in this area is good,
and you should do it?
Like how, what's the wayyou convince them of that?
(10:21):
- Yeah, so I mean, likeDanielle said, you know,
we had done this presentation, and we saw
that there was an interest,and so it's actually not,
it's not hard to get people interested.
The bigger barrier is, just getting them
to understand that like,it doesn't take millions
of dollars to do this.
Like, it can, and if you have it, great.
Spend it.
(laughs)
(10:42):
You know, but one ofthe things that we sort
of preach a lot, is, it's better
to do something than nothing.
And so, and there's a tonof free and low cost things
that you can do, to evenjust get the ball rolling
at your organization.
I reminded Danielle of amemory that I had from one
of the first times wedid the presentation,
(11:04):
which was, little oldlady who came up to us,
and was like, I work at avolunteer-run historic site
in, you know, the westernslope of Colorado.
Here's my problem, like, what do I do?
She's like, cause we don't have any money.
And so we helped, youknow, give her a few ideas
to at least get somethinggoing, so that she could
get more buy-in from thepeople who she works with.
(11:27):
- Mm-hmm.
But I think to your question, Dara,
of, what are the things we do, and,
we do this from the beginning of the book,
we also got inspirationof this from Betty Siegel,
who is a great proponentfrom the Kennedy Center
on accessibility, and, it'sthese kind of five pillars
of, you know, number one,it's the right thing to do.
(11:48):
Right?
Like you want to be, people need
to be able to access things.
But then, because even thoughmuseums are nonprofits,
and so they are mission-basedand vision-based,
you do still have tospeak to the bottom line.
So you also have tomake the business case.
And the business case isthat, one in four people
in North America havesome sort of disability.
(12:10):
So then, regardless of whatstate or city you're in,
you can look at demographicsand you can say,
this is X amount ofpeople who are not coming
to your museum if it is inaccessible.
And then, expanding uponthat is, what are the friends
and families of folkswho have disabilities,
who are also not coming, because they know
that their loved one,or their family member
(12:31):
has been excluded, so they're not coming.
So if you're saying, this isreally an untapped audience,
or like, an undertapped audience,
that you can really engage with.
Then of course, there's the legality,
you know, and that's beencoming into stark clarity
over the past couple years,especially around online
(12:52):
and digital accessibilityof people's websites,
and making sure that those are legal,
'cause people can be sued for that.
So those are the ways thatwe really try and pitch it
of, getting people onboard, and to understanding.
But then to Heather's point,once people are there,
then it can become overwhelming.
(13:12):
Because if you don't start incrementally,
it's like, how do you gofrom zero to a hundred?
That becomes overwhelming,and a lot of places, honestly,
We'll just stop and just say,it's too much, we can't do it.
And so what we've triedto do in the book, is,
to portion out, like, hereare just incremental steps
you can do, that any museum of any size,
(13:32):
any scope and scale can do.
And to Heather's point,on the range of, really
on the cheap, to having a lot more money.
And that's, again, whereit's interesting to think
of that, you can't use that as an excuse
if you're a small volunteer-run museum.
Well, we have no support.
Like nope, you can still do something.
- Yeah.
Dara and I are noddingour heads, because like,
(13:57):
you're just sitting there point by point,
saying, essentially, the exact same things
that we do in digital accessibility.
- Yeah, like that is the TPGI marketing.
- That's the yeah, that's the way it is.
And I think one of themost important aspects
of all this, is thatconcept of doing something.
(14:18):
That you're, you know,you're absolutely right.
Whether it's digital accessibility,
whether it's the accessibility of museums
or anything, improvementis just incredibly valuable
in and of itself, and perfection is sort
of, just like a fool's game, right?
- Yeah.
- Like if you sit there andgo, we gotta be perfection,
we gotta do everything, like of course,
you're gonna be overwhelmed, so.
(14:41):
- And it's almost impossible, right?
- It is impossible.
- 'Cause what is gonna beperfect now, in five years,
is gonna be totally different.
- And that's exactly, Imean, and you think about
how rapid, like, development is, right?
Like, your five years is our few months.
- Exactly, yeah.
- So it is important to do something,
and it's also important to dosomething that's sustainable,
(15:02):
and it's important tocontinue to keep an eye on it,
and your reasons, Imean, you're, you know.
It's the right thing, the ROI behind it,
you know, one out of fourpeople with disabilities.
Like, it just that, theway you're evangelizing,
I think is just transferrableall over the place.
And it's fantastic to see it being used
in specific scenarios like yours.
(15:27):
- Curious.
- So I dunno if you have anyquestions, Dara, but I'm,
I'm dying to find out, like,how did you go to like,
we're interested in this,like, hey, let's write a book.
Right?
Like, that's a huge thing.
- Yeah, that was Heather, man.
- Yeah.
(Heather laughs)
- Heather's our, like,hey you wanna try this?
Hey, you wanna try this?
- Yeah, yeah.
(15:47):
I was at the American Allianceof Museums Conference,
and they had posters aroundthat were basically like,
hey, have a book idea?
Pitch it to us.
So I remember gettingback from the conference,
and sending Danielle an email,and I think the subject line
was something along the linesof like, it's okay to say no,
(laughs)
or tell me I've lost my mind.
(16:10):
- Am I nuts for doing this?
- Right.
- I said, so, here's what I saw.
What do you think?
And they, you know, theywere very enthusiastic
about the pitch idea, and so we you know,
spent a year-ish,
writing the book,
(16:32):
it was definitely a labor of love.
Lots of late nights, but.
- Yeah.
Yeah.
- So, but totally worth it.
So.
Yeah, I mean we reallytook the presentation
that we had been doing, and broke it
into chapters more or less.
(16:53):
We changed a few things,but, that was sort
of how we approachedthe publisher with it,
and said, you know, here's our idea.
Here's why it's important.
What do you think?
- And I think what.
- And fortunately, they said yes.
(laughs)
- Yeah, yeah, fortunately, fortunately.
And I think what really, andnow after reflecting on it,
since it's been out forover a year, and looking
(17:14):
at other books in thefield, it is, you know,
it is narrow that it's museums.
But of course, I think youcould still make the case
that it's for culturalsector organizations.
'Cause I have folks inthe botanic gardens field
who have talked abouthow it's been impactful,
libraries, but that whatI think our book does
(17:37):
that is different, is that,it's much more practical.
I mean that's in the title, right?
Practical.
(Danielle laughs)
- Have we said the title?
- Oh, yeah, we should say a title.
- They're like, what isthis book that's on here?
- Dara, you say the title.
You've probably alreadystarted reading the book.
- It sounds silly.
I never actually wrote down the title.
(17:58):
- Yes, you did.
You gave it to me.
- There we go, Heather has it.
- Really, I did?
- "The Art of Access (18:04):
A Practical Guide
"For Museum Accessibility."
I guess I could have read it from there,
instead of over here, I know.
- It's all good.
- Yeah, you did.
But if you're like me, you just, you know.
Speaking of disabilitieswith my ADD, and my dyslexia,
stuff jumps outta my head like that.
- That's okay, yeah.
- I've gotta have notes.
(18:26):
But yeah, so that's, so the practical,
the word practical in that title
is really where you guys were focused.
- Yeah, 'cause we really wanted to focus
on the audience being peoplelike us, who are actually
in the museum field, who want to do this.
Because what happens alot, I think it's changing,
but what happens a lot, is,there's usually one person
who works in a museum,and access has been added
(18:48):
on to what they're doing.
So you work in education, usually.
Okay.
Accessibility is alsogonna be part of your job.
And because of that, it's usually people
who don't always have experience,
they might have a lot of passion,
but it's really hardto know where to start.
And so, that's what we wantedto provide, was something
for people, who, eitherthey're starting out,
(19:10):
or they're like us and they'vebeen doing it for a while,
but they really wanna know the practical.
The theory, as we said at the beginning.
Like the why?
People get the why.
But then it's that next step that, really,
we didn't see a resource for,
and that's what wereally wanted to provide.
And yes, Heather said, thankfully, people.
And we've gotten some good feedback,
(19:30):
that it has been helpful, which is great.
And it's also opened up, you know,
I think great conversations,which is what a book should do,
of like, well what else could you explore?
Or, what more resources are there?
Or, what other questions are not answered?
- Well I'm actually curious to bounce back
to what you said earlierabout, that it can help
(19:52):
more people be able to go to the museum,
and enjoy the museum.
You, I read up on how youdid low sensory mornings
at the Denver Art Museum.
And did you, when you werethere, did you see people
who had never showed upto the museum before,
being there during that time?
I'd love to hear more about that.
(20:13):
- Absolutely.
Yeah, so our low sensory mornings,
that are now called sensory friendly,
are really intended to betimes when the museum was open,
and really, just dedicated topeople with neurodiversity,
or folks who either areon the autism spectrum,
or have some sort ofsensory sensitivities.
And I would say, by far, the vast majority
(20:36):
of people coming wouldbe first time visitors
who never felt comfortablecoming to an art museum.
'Cause that is what isunique, is, there's a lot
of these types of programsat children's museums,
at history museums, natureand science museums,
'cause those are alwaysseen as much more hands-on,
family-friendly museums.
And art museums justaren't, 'cause art museums,
for the longest time, andwe're still really pushing
(20:58):
against that, are seen asthis white box place that is
for people who have PhDs inart history, and you have
to know a certain amount,and you're not supposed
to talk, you're not supposed to touch,
you're not supposed to do anything.
And so we, when we started the program,
and we really thought abouthow are we creating a space
that's welcoming andbarrier-free for folks
(21:20):
who just don't feel comfortable in this?
You know, we turn down thesounds, we turn down the lights
as much as possible, welimit how many people can
be in this space, we'retraining the staff who are there
to make sure to understand howthey are approaching people
if they do need to speak with them.
We're providing, like, fidgetsand other hands-on materials
(21:43):
that if people need themduring their visit, they can,
to just accommodate them.
And we've seen just wild success.
But it is mostly first-time visitors.
We're starting to see people coming back,
and return visitors, whichis the sign of success.
Because part of it is, wewanted to build up a confidence
in coming back, and saying, I feel like
(22:05):
this is a space for me.
Because, it's hard.
And I mean, Heather canspeak to this, 'cause she's,
you know, she's a mother ofa neurodiverse son, and so
she knows that it's tough cominginto places like my museum.
(Danielle laughs)
- He's also seven, so.
(laughs)
(22:25):
But yeah, yeah, there are certain places
that we just don't go because it's,
it's too hard for us as a family,
to have a good experience all around,
which just means that yeah,there's certain places
that we just don't go.
(22:45):
But when places do have
supports in place, specialized programs,
things like that, it makesit a little bit easier.
And just also, from a parent perspective,
it's great to be around people who get it.
Like that's honestly,like, part of why some
(23:07):
of the places that we don't go to,
it's because we justdon't wanna have to deal
with the people who don't get it.
- You just wanna have a,
for lack of a better way tosay it, a regular experience,
and you don't wannahave to explain yourself
all the time, over and over again, yeah.
So there's somethingthat we talk about a lot
(23:27):
in digital accessibilitycalled the Curb Cutout Effect.
Right?
And you got, so you're nodding your heads.
So listeners, if you're not familiar
with the Curb CutoutEffect, it's this phenomenon
where curb cutouts, thoselittle kind of tiny ramps
in the sidewalk werecreated, primarily for people
in wheelchairs, and thatneeded that ramp access versus,
you know, they couldn'tstep up over a bump.
(23:48):
And the reason why it'scalled the Curb Cutout Effect,
is because, people withoutdisabilities started using it.
Right?
Pushing strollers,roller bags right up it,
they even did a studywhere 80 something percent
of people without a reason to use it,
just somebody walking would move over
to the curb cutout towalk up, versus stepping
up on the curb, right?
(24:11):
So, it's a case where,making accommodation
for a person with adisability actually created
something valuable to everyone, right?
So listening to you, listeningto you talk, you know,
Heather, about sort ofyou as a family, and then,
and Danielle, this idea of access,
(24:32):
and you made a really interesting comment
about like, people felt like they have
to have a PhD to go to a museum.
In a way, there's almost an access issue
across the board, sometimes, in museums.
Like, just from thatperception standpoint.
This is my long-winded wayof asking, have you seen,
(24:53):
through this effort, kindof a curb cutout effect?
Have you seen people whomaybe don't have disabilities,
or just are adjacent tosomebody with a disability kind
of have that first time experience,
and realize that they can go to a museum
and enjoy it, that hadn't before?
(25:14):
We're all thinking.
- It's a good question, yeah, I'm trying
to think if there's, I mean.
- I mean maybe you haven't, like.
- I have, I also justrealized I talk a ton.
We're both educators, so I'm trying
to make space for Heather.
Yes.
- You and I both, you and I both.
Right?
I'm always trying to stayquiet, so Dara can jump in.
- I know.
(25:35):
- But I have seen it interms of wall labels.
And so, I think thisis a really good thing,
and of course I'm gonna sing the praises
of my museum, 'causeI've been working there
for seven years, so they'redoing something right.
But we have a style guide
for our labels, and Ihonestly, I cannot remember
when it was instated, but,we did go across the board
(25:57):
and said, labels needto be designed in a way
that, essentially, it's people
with like an eighth grade education.
- Yes, I'm so passionateabout this as a concept.
- You know about that, right.
And like, it seems, andeven I think, we might have
even taken away the eighthgrade, 'cause that's, even
in itself, could belimiting and a barrier.
(26:18):
But it's saying, if you'reusing art vocabulary,
how are you explaining it?
How are you making sure that the content
is something that people can engage with?
Because if not, yes,there are some people who,
they go to a museumand you wanna just look
at whatever it is,whether it's the artwork,
whether it's the space, and then
you read the label secondary.
(26:39):
But some people, they want to read that
to get more information.
And so when we do have that,how are you making sure
that everyone, or thatthe most people possible
are able to engage and understand?
And that is somethingthat I don't think came,
specifically fromaccessibility, but it was
this understanding of like,how are we just making sure
(27:01):
that the most people can use this?
So kind of like the curb cut.
- It was the, yeah, itwas the attitude shifts
that started to benefit.
- Yeah, it was, and I thinkit was seeing, you know,
that we were hearing, again and again,
that people were seeingus as very exclusionary,
very elitist, and you know,
and if you're a museum that is meant
(27:23):
to be for your community,and then you also
see that, again, the bottom line.
You see ticket sales goingdown, and people not coming,
and so you're like, well let'sput two and two together.
- Yeah, and I can appreciate that because,
you know, my wife,like, just flat out sort
of gets annoyed and Ithink has stopped asking me
what I think in a museum, because I start
(27:44):
to prattle on like the, you know,
fine arts major that I am, and she's like,
I just thought it looked good.
(Mark laughs)
- Right.
- You know?
Like, all those words, allthat stuff you just said,
it doesn't matter to me.
- Yeah, which is like, it's fine.
Yeah.
- But she's expressingexactly what you expressed.
She's saying, hey, all thatstuff is not accessible
to me, and it doesn'tenhance my enjoyment of it.
(28:06):
And, but it's been very good.
I mean, all joking aside,it means that we've had
to come to, you know,there's a place there,
where if the language is changed,
if the way I speak about itis changed, and accessible
to her, she actually can, you know,
we can meet somewhere in the middle.
- Right.
- And create enjoyment, and it sounds like
(28:30):
that's exactly what youguys are trying to do
with everyone, not justpeople with disabilities,
particularly people with disabilities.
- Yeah.
- But what I'll say, oh, go ahead.
- Oh, go ahead.
- No, no, no, no, no.
I'm switching gears a little bit.
(Heather laughs)
- No, I was gonna say,we had something similar.
I mean, one of the silverlinings of COVID was that,
so I work at a historichouse, and, you know,
(28:52):
pre-COVID, the only way to see the house
was a 45-minute guided touroffered every half an hour.
And when we came back frombeing closed, we were like,
we can't have staff and volunteers
in those positions leading tour groups.
So, we actually shiftedto a self-guided tour,
and it's been interesting, because,
(29:13):
we now have guided andself-guided options available,
but the self-guidedoption is a great choice
for people, because you know,like I always recommend it
whenever I get emails about,you know, if we have people
who have sensory sensitivitiesor something like that,
I'm like, you can move at your own pace.
Like, you know, things like that.
(29:34):
If you know, like your wifewanted to just see the house,
and not stop and read everything,like, that's an option,
and then they can rejoin.
So there's just so much more flexibility.
- I'll let her know.
- Yeah.
(Heather laughs)
Yeah, next time you're in Denver.
So, I'm glad that we've kept it,
because I do think itmakes it more accessible
(29:55):
to a variety of people, andthen the other interesting thing
that we saw coming back,once we started offering
the self-guided tours wasthat, we saw an increase
in, like, Hispanic families coming, which,
we have no idea if that'sbecause it's self-guided,
or what it is, but it was aninteresting shift that we saw
(30:16):
only once we startedoffering self-guided tours.
- Hmm, that is interesting.
It'd be interesting to find out why.
- So your place is calledthe Molly Brown House.
Right?
- Mm-hmm.
- Who is Molly Brown?
I've been wondering that.
(Dara laughs)
- So Margaret Tobin Brown is best known
for surviving the sinking of the Titanic.
(30:36):
She was a first class passenger,
but she was not always wealthy.
She was born to Irish immigrant parents.
And then she ended up marrying a miner
who happened to invest, slash,
to help find the largest vein of gold
(30:56):
and high yield copper in North America
at that point in time, andso they became very wealthy
in a short amount of time, but yeah.
Mostly she's known forsurviving the Titanic,
but she did a lot to help women's rights,
workers' rights, she helped establish
the juvenile justice system in Denver,
things like that, so.
(31:16):
She did a lot.
(Heather laughs)
More than we can tellyou in a 45 minute tour.
- And that's in Denver?
- Mm-hmm.
- Interesting, that'san interesting story.
- So, the house is a Victorian, you know,
home that's been restored to about 1910.
- We could, you know,if we could turn this
(31:37):
into a history podcast, I think we could
just go down a deep rabbit hole there.
I kinda want to, but.
- Oh yeah, I could talkabout Margaret for hours.
(Heather laughs)
- I'm sure.
- So one thing I wantedto, I know this is kind
of backtracking, but you mentioning
that kind of curb cut effect.
What I think is of interest is, seeing
(31:57):
how we've been promotingmore accessible practices,
and awareness, andunderstanding has also reached
to our staff.
So what's been interestingis, I think we're always
so focused on visitors,and their accessibility,
and their importance,and now I think museums
are reflecting a lot more internally.
(32:17):
And so, an example isthat we have, started
with our sensory friendlymornings, but we have
these sensory bags, or sensorytools that we provide folks
who come to visit.
And a lot of museums have these.
The Molly Brown House has these items too,
that people can engage with.
They might look likenoise reducing headphones,
weighted lap pads, weighted neck pads,
(32:40):
fidgets, things like that.
But as we were talking tostaff about rolling these out,
making sure that we'd havethese available for visitors,
some of our staff, andespecially our front facing staff
who are working a lot with visitors said,
hey, actually we're really,could we have some of these?
Like, we would actually really need them.
And I think that's important,if, again, we're saying
one in four people in NorthAmerica has a disability,
(33:02):
that means one in fourstaff that are working
at these organizations are having them.
So I think that's aninteresting shift, is that,
focusing a lot on whatwe're providing for visitors
is also building theawareness in HR of like,
how are we also supporting accessibility
of our staff, and especiallythose with disabilities
to feel confident in their work?
(33:25):
And that's just been an interesting,
yeah, kind of increase.
- I know we're getting closerto the end, so I wanted
to make sure we talk aboutthis before we finish.
I read up, Heather, aboutthe accessibility lounge
that you have at the Molly Brown House.
And I just wanted, Iwanted to hear you talk
about that a bit, andand share with everyone.
(33:45):
- Yeah.
So like I said, pre-COVID, the only way
to see the house was on this guided tour.
As a historic house, we try to be
as accessible as we can, but you know,
we're limited to keepingthe historic integrity
of the house intact.
(34:05):
So only the main floor of the house,
and then our basement exhibition space
is accessible to peoplewho have mobility devices,
or just can't do the stairs.
So, the board made thedecision to actually
install a lift that goesto those two spaces,
(34:29):
removing part of the back porch area,
which didn't really have a whole lot
of historic significance, so, that's why.
(Heather laughs)
But you know, we wanted tocreate this welcoming space
for people to hang out and wait
while they waited to rejoin their tour.
So we have a historic bookcase back there
(34:50):
that's got some exhibitcases, essentially,
like installed on the shelves.
We have a box with tactilethings that you would see
up on the second and third floors.
So two of the historicbedrooms have actually damask,
we say damask wallpaper, butit's really just damask fabric.
(35:11):
So samples of that, we've got some pieces
of plaster rose up that youwould see on the ceiling,
like around the light fixtures.
Some of the light switches'cause we have like,
four different kinds oflight switches in the house.
So there's like the push button kind,
which are always fun to play with.
You know, a variety oftactile elements like that.
(35:33):
And then we worked with a volunteer
who had a videography background to create
a video tour of thesecond and third floor,
which we just, we have aniPad stand, and an iPad,
and we just put it onthere and people can choose
which room they wannalook at, and you know,
it basically shows youeverything you would've seen
(35:54):
had you gone up to those spaces.
So while we can't makeit physically accessible
for everybody to get upthere, you know, our goal was
to create as equitableexperience as we could.
- Nice.
Well we do have to start wrapping up.
Before we do, Dara, is there anything else
that you're dying to know?
(36:15):
- I would like to know,you know, since TPGI
is a digital accessibilitycompany, I am curious about,
when you look at museum'swebsites, when you're talking
about accessibility,what are the most common
accessibility errors that you've seen?
- Ugh, yeah.
- Contrast.
- Yep, yep.
(36:36):
Contrast is so hard, 'cause everything has
to be beautiful, and so there'salways really fun colors.
I think not having alt text.
Honestly, if that's somethingthat you guys would want
to do as a big project, is like, figuring
out best practices for describing artworks
(36:56):
in a short alt text format.
'Cause that is so difficult,and it's on staff to do it.
And it's like, how you'recondensing something that's so,
it's so abstract in someways, and so complex,
into something that couldbe just easily digestible.
(37:17):
I think that's really,that's really tough.
- Yeah.
I'm really imagining thatfor like, some art pieces.
That would be like.
- It's really tough.
- For like, for abstractpieces of art, you know,
that are like, it's all about the vibes.
How do you express the vibe, like?
- Exactly, yeah.
(Dara laughs)
- Well, and do you expressthe vibe, or do you
create the same opportunityto interpret a vibe, because?
(37:39):
- Yeah.
- That is where.
- I don't wanna beat your vibe, right?
- Exactly.
And that's where honestly,yeah, another 45 minute podcast
to be about, how do you interpret?
Because right, like if you're wanting
to provide an equitable experience,
you just describe how, what it looks like.
But then when you're in themuseum, you do have ways
where people tell you abouttheir interpretation, so.
- So my next disclosureabout myself here, that I've,
(38:02):
I didn't really hold itback, I just forgot about it.
I spent five years publishing a magazine
on art, theater, literature,music, and was the art writer.
So I feel like maybe I'm the one.
- Hey, you're the one.
- The two sides of it.
- Let's talk after this.
(Danielle laughs)
- I'm gonna send you some artwork.
- Yeah.
(38:23):
- Well great.
Is there anything Heather and Danielle,
that you guys, that you'dlike to wrap up with?
Unfortunately, we can't sit here.
I feel like we could sit hereand talk about accessibility
longer and then we couldjust sort of move right
into history for a while, and then hey,
let's wrap it up with art.
But we can't do that.
Maybe those are spinoff podcasts.
(38:44):
- Exactly.
- Is there anything elsethat we just didn't,
that you wanna make sure people are left
with, either emphasize, orthat we didn't quite hit?
- I mean, I think the otherthing that we, you know,
we always say doing somethingis better than doing nothing,
but also just a reminderthat the ADA is like
the bare minimum of whatyou should be doing.
(39:04):
There's a couple of great sortof ways to think about that.
And you know, one as wesay, you'll hear like,
it's the bottom floor,it's not the ceiling.
But one I heard recently,which I just love,
and I think is really easyfor people to conceptualize,
is that, you know, doing thebare minimum the ADA requires
of you, is like getting a D in class.
(39:26):
It's enough to pass.
- It's the A-D-A.
(Dara laughs)
That's good.
- And then, yeah, in additionto that, it's just that
every accessibility iseverybody's responsibility.
It's not just the person whohas it as part of their title.
It is the tech team doingdigital accessibility.
(39:48):
It is the educators, it's the accountants
making sure that they're,you know, having vendors
who maybe are fromdisability-owned organizations,
things like that.
'Cause I think so much it can be like,
well that's not my job,that's someone else's.
And trying to say, this iseveryone's responsibility.
It's important, but.
(40:09):
- And the only thing thatI would add to that, Mark,
is that accessibility is ongoing.
It's not just like, checka box and you're done.
Like it's something thatyou need to continually
be thinking about and reviewing.
- Beautiful, wonderful points to end on.
What a fun discussion.
I really, really appreciate it.
(40:30):
And it's always great to get on the phone
with accessibility, and art geeks,
and history geeks too, right?
- Yeah.
- So thank you so much.
This is Mark thankingHeather, Danielle, and Dara,
and reminding you to keep it accessible.
(upbeat music)
- [Announcer] This podcasthas been brought to you
by TPGI, the experts indigital accessibility.
(40:53):
Stay tuned for more "RealPeople, Real Stories"
podcasts coming soon.
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