February 19, 2024 • 51 mins
In season 2 episode 2, I interview legal counsellor Candida Pinto about her personal experiences with bad management. Candida provides a phenomenological perspective of bad management in the workplace and the impact it can have on you emotionally and mentally. Through her stories we explore the characteristics of good and bad management and reflect on the impact bad management can have on employee performance and mental health. We also talk about the role of (organizational) culture and how it can facilitate bad management practices. During this interview we not only speak about red and green flags in management, but also discuss strategies how to deal with bad/toxic managers in the workplace. A story many of us can relate to.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Are you ready?
Welcome back everyone to a newepisode of Red Flags, Green Flags,
Modern Psychology for Everyday Drama.
(00:22):
In this season, we are talking aboutwork relationships, specifically
focusing on red and green flags at work.
We spend about 2 thirds of our lives atwork, and so building strong and positive
relationships at work is critical ifwe want to have a successful career.
It's not just about what you know,but it's also who you know and
how you engage with others thatleads to better work outcomes.
(00:43):
The aim of this season is to helplisteners better understand the
drama that happens at work andto provide deep insights to why
people behave the way they do.
Also, we will discuss differentstrategies on how to deal with workplace
drama from working with difficultcolleagues and managers to how to
survive in a toxic work environment.
By using a psychological lens tointerpret real life experiences at
(01:05):
work, we can gain better insights onhow best to navigate the complexity of
modern work and organizational life.
Now, it is often said that we getattracted to companies for what they
stand for and the reputation they have,but that we also often leave a company
due to bad relationship with a manager.
Your relationship with your manageris crucial to your success in the
(01:28):
organization and also to your career.
Good managers help you grow,succeed, and even flourish.
Competent and confident managers oftenlook for people who are better and
smarter than themselves because theyenjoy seeing others grow and succeed.
Bad managers on the other hand areoften fearful of the abilities of high
performing employees scared that theirjob will be on the line if outperformed.
(01:50):
Other examples of bad management arepeople who micromanage their employees
or take credit for work done by others.
The way your manager treats you canimpact you in so many different ways,
and a bad manager can significantly holdback your career progression and even
negatively affect your mental health.
And so joining me on my podcast todayto talk about how to deal with difficult
(02:12):
managers is Candida Pinto, a legalprofessional with over 20 years of
work experience in the legal industry.
Candida, welcome to the podcast.
Here in Dubai.
It is an absolutepleasure to have you here.
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Thank you for being here.
So maybe you can tell us a littlebit more about what you do and, um,
(02:34):
how long you've been here in Dubai.
Um, as some candidate painter,I'm a solicitor, uh, qualified,
uh, in England, uh, and Wales.
And I moved to Dubai,um, in September 20 13.
So it will be 10 years on the 20 ninth ofSeptember that I first arrived in Dubai.
(02:57):
Uh, I've been an in house legalcounsel for, um, companies
in the oil and gas sector.
And in December 20 20, I moved to a lawfirm, which is not a traditional law firm.
It's a bit of a disruptor in thelegal profession, uh, where we had
a we worked from anywhere we were.
(03:19):
Uh, we did not have an office,uh, and we were like sort of
independent independent lawyers.
And in April 20 23, uh, I movedback in house, uh, as head of the
legal department for a companyin the oil and gas sector still.
Good.
Seems like you you've had avery, uh, fruitful career,
(03:42):
um, in the legal industry.
Do you find that, for example, now inDubai, working also for such a long
time in in the legal industry, thatit's very different than in other areas
around the world that you've worked?
Yes.
And I think there are, um, whether it'syou are an in house legal counsel or
(04:03):
whether you work for a law firm, thereare other complexities that you have to
take into account in the work environment,um, such as cultural differences, which
often can be miss misinterpreted, um,you know, as somebody perhaps behaving
(04:27):
in a manner that, um, is not agreeablewith you, um, because you come from well,
I lived most of my life in in the UK.
I am Portuguese, um, by birth.
So I understand 2 different cultures.
But now here in Dubai, I needto understand a variety of
other cultures because this isa very diverse, uh, community.
(04:50):
And there's a lot ofpeople here of course.
There's a lot of people here.
Yeah.
So, um, management skills and,um, takes a whole other dimension
because you have to factor into, uh,into it the cultural differences.
Yeah.
And everyone has a differentapproach if you come from
India, Middle East, or Europe.
Absolutely.
Different perspectives ofwhat management is, authority.
(05:13):
Absolutely.
And the relationships between themanager and the, uh, the people senior
to the manager and the within theorganization, which the manner in which
the manager may behave or manages,uh, its direct reports, um, and in my
experience is highly influenced by theculture, um, that the manager comes from.
(05:37):
Great.
Great.
And then I think yeah.
And So absolutely.
And I think in today's podcast, whenwe're gonna talk about bad management
and what causes bad management or evengood management for that matter of
fact, I think culture, as you mentioned,plays a huge role in that and also
how we interpret certain behaviors andof what's right and what's not right.
Before we actually jump into thenuts and bolts about red flags and
(05:59):
bad management, I would like to askyou, um, how would you rate your own
management skills from from 0 to 10 ifyou could give yourself a number and why?
Right.
Um, I would say 8 to 9.
And the reason I say that is actually,like, in your introduction, you
(06:23):
mentioned all the things that I believein, um, as a as a manager and how
managing people, uh, should look like.
And 1 of the things is that, um,I believe in raising everybody
around me, uh, whoever they are.
(06:46):
Um, I I share knowledge.
I'm very open about sharing knowledge,uh, and helping other people grow.
Because I've always believed that ifyou have a happy team working with
you, that, uh, they feel happy tobe with you, uh, they listen to you,
(07:06):
they feel heard, they feel valued.
Um, you even if they have moreexperience than you or they
know more than you, you rise.
As they rise, you also rise becauseyour team is gonna make you look good.
(07:28):
So if you support your team and ifyou give them the tools to to thrive
and to develop, uh, as as lawyers,um, or, you know, whoever whether
whatever the uh, the, uh, the job maybe, um, then you're gonna look good.
Amazing.
(07:49):
So so for you, seeing other peoplegrow and develop is something
that you also enjoy doing then.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
I think that's I think that's a reallygood hallmark of a of a good manager.
Right?
Especially when you managepeople, it's not about yourself.
It's about what you do for other people.
Uh, yes.
And at the end of the day, particularlywhen you are, um, an in in house, you're
(08:14):
you're working for the enterprise.
Okay?
If you're in a law firm and you area partner, you're kind of working
for yourself, so it's slightly thethe dynamics are very different.
Um, but you are workingfor the enterprise.
And if the enterprise is doing well,making money and profit, um, then you
(08:36):
have a job, you get paid, you may geta pay rise or bonuses or or whatever.
So, uh, it's for the benefitof the collective rather than
the benefit of the individual.
Of the individual.
But I can also imagine at the same timeworking for a law firm, it seems to
me like a high pressure environment.
Right?
It's the the pressure is always on.
(08:56):
You have to deliver, um, andand, you know, I guess this the
task that you actually engagewith are not very light things.
I mean, law is law.
How do you interpret it?
You've got to do with deal with conflict.
Explain how how you as a managerthen help your people, uh, the
lawyers in that in that matter, toto work effectively together and and
(09:21):
to deal really well with pressure?
Um, my my experience in a traditionallaw firm is, uh, is is limited, um,
but but, you know, having had someexperience in in the with that argentum,
you are always uh, working againstvery tight deadline deadlines usually.
(09:46):
Personally, I tend to when everyoneis fretting around me and getting all
stressed, I tend to go really calm.
Um, and then sort of insteadof, um, just talking a lot, I
think, first, I look at Before.
(10:07):
Before Responding.
Before responding.
And I think look at look at the facts, andthere has been, uh, I'm I'm thinking of
sort of situations where I have been wheremanagers are making emotional decisions,
and then I have to go back and look atthe facts and then say, you know, um, yes.
(10:29):
I understand where you're coming from.
It's very irritating and all ofthat, but, uh, uh, let's look at
this from this perspective as wellbecause it might be more beneficial
to look at things this way.
Yeah.
You do come across as someone who is veryreflective, who is very thoughtful, um,
and but I can also imagine that a lot ofmanagers working in a similar environment
(10:52):
might have a very different personality.
Could you give some examples of, you know,other management styles that you've seen
based on different personality traits, ormaybe how people behave that you either
considered either positive or maybeeven negative for that matter of fact?
Um, well, I I can only speak, uh, for, um,past managers that, um, that I had and the
(11:15):
experiences that, um, that I went through.
And 2 jobs that I had in the past,I left because of the manager.
1 of them, when I was in the UK, if If itwasn't for the manager, I would probably
still be, uh, with the company today.
Um, but I actually thank him becausethat gave me the opportunity to
(11:36):
come to Dubai, and my experiencehere in Dubai has been very rich.
So when 1 door closes, another 1 opens.
Another 1 opens.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
But I didn't quite think andsee it that way at the time.
Um, I I think 1 problem, sometimesthe problem is, and it was the case,
(11:57):
uh, in with that manager that I had,um, is that people believe that in
order to elevate themselves, theyneed to suppress those that Yeah.
Are below them.
That's unfortunate.
That are below them.
Yeah.
Uh, and that creates a difficultenvironment because, uh, erodes trust
(12:19):
between uh, the employee and the manager.
And you need to have trust, uh, inorder for the organization to operate,
uh, effectively and efficiently.
And also for employees toalso give their best Yes.
In the organization.
Uh, and and that sort of negativebehavior is not necessarily a
(12:40):
a manager who is loud, shoutsa lot, raises his voice at you.
You say his voice?
His voice.
Yeah.
In this case, it was a it was a he.
Yes.
I think in both cases, it was a he.
Um, but is is the, is the waysometimes things are done, uh,
(13:05):
which are clearly designed eitherto undermine you or to distance
you, to make you feel like devalued.
Right.
Um, as well.
It is.
(13:25):
So it's Yeah.
The behavior can take, uh, youknow, I've experienced, uh, also
somebody that threatened to hitme, but, uh That's terrible.
So Yeah.
Uh, you know, it can be, um,uh, a variety, um, of behaviors.
Behaviors that can manifest.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
It's not necessarilyallowed and an aggressive 1.
(13:46):
No.
No.
It's interesting.
We can talk about that.
I think, you know, some some elementsof people's bad behaviors can be linked
to maybe sometimes incompetencies.
Mhmm.
But it can also often be related toeither personality style or insecurities
that people might have in the workplace.
And especially with managers that, um,you know, I like well, I don't wanna say
just incompetent, but sometimes thoseinsecurities that managers bring Yes.
(14:10):
Into the workplace, you know,really help makes them do things
that are not really productive ornot very helpful to other people.
And you gave this example of wantingto suppress other people Mhmm.
Um, just for themselves to look better.
And I I often I I see that a lot alsoin organizations when I assess, you
know, behaviors and productivity andwell-being of employees and organizations.
(14:30):
And I, you know, I often saythat a players choose a players,
but b players choose c players.
Mhmm.
And that's so clear in an organizationbecause you see that the b players who
are very fearful of, you know, otherpeople showing up and and them potentially
looking bad that they they would tend tohire people that are, you know, which they
(14:52):
believe are significantly low in terms ofperformance and personality and behaviors.
Get rid of the people that theysee as a threat potentially.
Correct.
Yeah.
And and and and then also the peoplethat they have in place, they they often,
um, will also mistreat them as a wayto kind of make themselves feel better.
And then and, unfortunately, thathappens a lot in organizations.
(15:14):
Yes.
Yeah.
And then my in my case, it was that themanager, uh, came into the organization.
Um, I knew that that was going to happen.
I knew that there there were reasonswhy, um, he would come in and as sort
of the the head of the legal department,uh, and I was perfectly happy with that.
(15:38):
And I when he joined, I took himaround to present introduced him
to everybody and and all of that.
But I had, uh, at that time,I already had, um, 8 years
of service with a company.
So I had well established relationships,um, both within the, uh, the organization
(16:03):
as well as, um, external players,uh, clients, and and vendors, and
make us part of my job in community.
You were saying that regardless of whathappened to you, thanks to those personal
relationships that you had built up, youhad some kind of buffer or protection?
I had I had a, uh, had a strong positionwithin the organization, um, because
(16:28):
I was regarded as sort of a a trusted,uh, employee employee and somebody
that, uh, manages and and and the otherpeople within the organization would
come to me for, uh, advice and support.
And I've always operated an open doorpolicy, and whatever question, uh, I
(16:49):
am asked, uh, even if it is not a legalquestion, I never say it is not my job
because I always respond to the question.
Uh, even if it is to say, um, yeah.
I think this and that, but, uh,it might be best that you double
check with someone else becausethey may know slightly better.
(17:09):
But, you know, I can sort of direct youin the right in in the right position.
So so so that was more of a let's say,you were saying that that would be
more of a a way of maintaining yourselfin the organization of having a good
reputation, a, you know, a strong networkas a way of feeling protected from What?
(17:30):
From bad management?
How how does this relate?
Well, the the the this relates thatto the with the manager when he came
in because I already had that sort ofreputation within the organization.
I think he felt threatened.
Uh, okay.
Got it.
Threatened by that strong reputationthat I have within the organization, um,
(17:52):
and felt overshadowed perhaps by by me.
So I took steps to, um, kind ofthe end result, it was to sort
of demote me and to distance mefrom having direct contact Right.
(18:14):
Right.
With the with the managers sothat he could be in between
the managers and and myself.
Yeah.
That's a very In order to elevate himselfand and and to feel that he was the 1
that had the power and the authoritywithin the organization and not me.
Yeah.
It's very unfortunate that thathappens because, you know, 1 I think
1 major red flag and, you know, withwith managers with ill intent is when
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they see that you might be a highperformer or very well connected,
that they know that if something goeswrong, you always have access to other
people, other decision makers in theorganization that you can speak to.
And so 1 specific behavior that comesup a lot, um, is that when that fear
is there that sometimes managerscan try to isolate you Correct.
(19:01):
From the rest of the organization.
Correct.
And and so that way, they they canensure that you know nobody sees you,
um, even though you have a very strongreputation that they'll see you less.
Uh, they might be able to talk badabout you because of that, you know,
um, and then you would not have accessto people or not just your network,
but also information sometimes.
(19:22):
Correct.
Absolutely.
Uh, and this this particular,uh, manager is is is an example
of all of that because, um, soonafter he joined the company, I I
went on secondment to a law firm.
Um, this was an arrangement betweenthe company and the law firm and, uh,
(19:44):
that I was going to to be secondedto them for 8 months, and a lawyer
from the law firm would come and, uh,uncover for me, um, in the office.
And it was part of, um, myagreement with the company Mhmm.
That whilst on secondment, I wouldstill support, um, the company
(20:07):
during those 8 months Right.
That I was gonna be out.
Uh, and soon soon before, um, I left togo on secondment, uh, I was prohibited
from communicating with anyone inthe company during those 8 months.
Wow.
And Yeah.
And what was the reason behind that?
(20:27):
No reason.
I wasn't given a reason.
So, uh, because I had dealt with, um, atransaction where documents were with a
notary public in the custody of a notarypublic, and they would only release
(20:48):
those documents once we ordered themto do so and to take the next steps.
Uh, it was a day or 2 after I leftthat a colleague of mine from the
Norwegian office sent an email tome copying my manager and everybody
(21:08):
inquiring about those documents,and I responded to that email and
everyone, including my my manager, um,just to say where the documents were.
And then the next thing Iknew, I was called into the
office for disciplinary action.
(21:30):
So, um, yeah, that's, um, thatwas his way of Getting rid of you.
Well, try Yeah.
Trying to, but you obviously wouldyou wouldn't be able to for those
8 months that I was on secondment.
But, but as soon as I I returned as soonas I returned to the company, even though
(21:51):
my agreement was that I would remainwith the company for at least a year,
but I I left immediately after Yeah.
You don't wanna staythere anymore after that.
Absolutely.
No.
I was I mean I I mean, I wanted tothrow something of a soft landing
in here saying, like, how difficult,you know, bad situations can play
out in law firms because everyoneknows the law in that perspective.
(22:12):
So I would not want to I wouldn'tI could not imagine how that
would play out in that sense.
Like, everyone knows thelaw, so if bad things happen,
you know exactly what to do.
I don't know.
Is that a case?
Just for the layman's perspective here,but Well, from my limited experience,
uh, with law firms, and this is acomment that I have made in the past,
(22:32):
that it always surprises me thatbehaviors like this, they still take
place in law firms even though you wouldhave thought that lawyers know best.
Right.
But, unfortunately, they're notimmune to that kind of bad behavior.
Yeah.
No 1 is, apparently.
No no 1 is.
No 1 is.
So so looking back in your thankyou for showing that, first of all.
(22:54):
And and and and so, Candida, looking backin your overall, you know, career, and
what what would you then kind of describe?
What would be some examples of reallybad bosses in terms of behavior?
And but what also kind of otherexamples you've given your own
today, but what would you also givesome examples of good behaviors?
Good behaviors.
Or exemplary behaviorsof a of a good boss?
(23:20):
That's a difficult 1, actually.
The good ones or the bad ones?
The the good ones.
It's funny that you you remembermore the bad ones than you do Yeah.
Than you remember the the good ones.
So maybe we could just focus onthe But I I do have bad ones.
Yeah.
I I do have colleagues that there werecolleagues of mine, actually lawyers
as well, um, because the company wasa multinational, and we had lawyers
(23:43):
in in the UK, in Oslo, in Houston.
And a colleague of mine fromthe Houston office, uh, that was
actually a very good, um, support.
And I often spoke spoke to him, uh,about the goings on in the office.
Right.
So you're saying support supportprovided by a manager is an
(24:07):
example of a good behavior?
Yes.
Yes.
Okay.
Okay.
Yes.
Well, any other examples that you cancome up with that you can think of?
Now you put me on the spot.
Maybe I can share maybe I can share 1that that I think is really important.
I I well, I and it comes back to what yousaid before, managers that elevate you.
Right?
Really managers that give you wingsand the resources and the support.
(24:30):
And elevation doesn't always haveto mean, like, oh, here's all the
resources that you need to have.
Sometimes it is a manager that givesyou a a challenging opportunity to work
on so that you can grow and flourishand learn, and then he or she being
that support mechanism for you asyou go through that new experience.
(24:51):
Correct.
And I'm also thinking of my current,um, my current job, and, um, I I report
directly to the president of the company.
Uh, and I do feel that Ihave that I have his back.
Um, and that that that kind ofbehavior can be reflected very sadly.
(25:14):
Yeah.
Uh, and even if it is to communicate toother members and to other managers in
the company that, for example, they needto come to me about about certain certain
matters and to discuss them with me beforethey take any action, that kind of thing.
So it doesn't have to be, uh, giving youa big job with great competent and Yeah.
(25:43):
Yeah.
That you have a role to play.
Right.
So, um, all of that is positive,uh, positive behavior Right.
Which gives you a sense of, um, you know,worth and, um, and security as well.
And, you know, you don't feellike I'm gonna be thrown under
(26:04):
the bus in any minute now.
Right.
So So yeah.
And I like how you said that.
It's not just only, the thingsthat they do for you, but how
they make you feel and Correct.
Yeah.
Like, giving you autonomy, givingyou the opportunity to speak and
make decisions, um, not only makeyou feel supported, but recognizing
you as well for your accomplishments.
Um, I mean, it's it's almost like anykind of relationship anywhere where
(26:26):
someone supports you and helps youto to be able to do your job and and
also has your back when you have totake some time, because sometimes
you have to make difficult decisions.
Or sometimes you have to take risks.
And, you know, sometimes thereare no procedures for the
things that you need to do.
And do you does not just maybe theenvironment, but does that manager
make you feel that you can speak up?
I think that's a really nicething that you mentioned.
(26:47):
I've got a reallyinteresting question for you.
And, um, this is also, um, I'll probablyI'll I'll share with you first because
I also ask my audience and followerson Instagram, um, about, um, of them
sharing also some experiences with us.
And I would love to get yourperspective on this, and then
I'll follow-up with a question.
Um, so this this, um, commentactually came from, um, a lady
(27:11):
called Niharika based out of India.
And she is a high performing softwareengineer, um, who says that when
a new female tech lead joined thecompany, she made her life a hell.
The tech lead didn't lead likeher, uh, from the beginning at
all and, uh, just found ways toto make her look bad publicly,
but also, uh, secretively as well.
(27:34):
So spoke bad about her behind her back.
And, um, her own manager, who was alsoa female, wasn't supportive either to
her, even though she knew her longerthan she knew the new tech lead, and
would also take sides of of that newlady that joined the company at times.
Neha Rika says that she refused to reactto these bad behaviors and engage in it.
(27:55):
Just put my head down, you know,just let me do my job and I'll
just I'll just move on with it.
But over a period of 2 years,um, it significantly impacted her
mental health, but also stoppedher from advancing in the company.
What's your take on this?
No.
I just, uh, yes.
Recognize?
I recognize all I recognize all of that.
(28:16):
Um, I've never had um, female managers.
My managers have always been male, but Ihave I've had female female colleagues.
Um, so my experience with femalecolleagues has been generally positive.
Uh, but with managers, um, yeah,um, I recognize all all of that.
(28:42):
Um, and Which you've observed from peoplearound you, or I'm also from what I I
experienced myself and how, um, Bathmanages by, um, you know what what she
mentioned, which is kind of similar towhat happened to me in the job that I had
before, um, I joined Agennta, And thatwas, um, a meeting was going to occur, and
(29:12):
I was meant to be attending that meeting,but I wasn't told about the meeting.
And this was a time when weekendwas Friday and Saturday, uh,
when on a Thursday afternoonOh, so that was in Dubai then?
That was in Yeah.
Okay.
Got it.
Got it.
Uh, on a Thursday afternoon, I wentto see my manager and asked, uh, to
(29:34):
ask if I could take, um, half Sundayafternoon off because I was going
to a lunch on Sunday afternoon.
And then I was told there was gonna be ameeting on Sunday with the, um, uh, with
the CFO that was coming from Houston.
Just for the listeners outthere, that that time Sunday
(29:56):
was the Monday Was it Yeah.
In the Arab world.
Correct.
And the UAE has changed in that.
Yeah.
Just so that everyone understands Correct.
The context.
Um, so and, um, and I said,what's the meeting about?
I don't know.
Uh, what time is the meeting?
I don't know.
Then Sunday morning, I was in theoffice, and the finance director
(30:19):
came by my office and said, um, no.
Your manager said you werenot gonna be in today.
And I said, um, no.
This is the conversation thatI have on Thursday afternoon.
What time is the meeting?
1 30.
I said, right.
I'll cancel lunch.
(30:39):
And you went to the meeting?
So I canceled lunch, andI went to the meeting.
Fantastic.
When I when eventually he had tocall me for the meeting, so I arrive
at the meeting, and I see that onon the table, there were, uh, some
slides printed and stapled together.
And I picked up a set of slides.
(31:03):
And that was all aboutthe work that we do.
And at the time, I was lookingafter the Asia Pacific region.
So he was taking credit for your work?
Well, um, I I I don't know whetherit was I I I don't know what
was his thinking, um, but thenvery legal answer, by the way.
I I looked I looked I looked at theslides, and then, uh, and then he
(31:28):
said, uh, well, I'll I'll talk about,uh, Middle Eastern Africa and Canada.
We'll talk about Asia Pacific.
And I thought, um, well, thanks, becausenow I'm to totally unprepared for this
meeting, and I have to think on my feet.
Did it turn out well for you?
So for me, it turned out well becausethen the, uh, the CFO wanted to
(31:49):
know about me, and, uh, so I I Itold him a bit of my trajectory.
And, basically, most of my jobs, uh,that I've had, it was because I was
persuaded to join those companies ratherthan actually me going going looking
for or or even applying for those jobs.
So I I had been headhunted,um, like, twice before.
(32:14):
Um, so for me, it it went well, butthat is a good example of, um, the
kind of behavior that can cause anenormous amount of stress and anxiety.
For sure.
Uh, because that example isn't the only 1.
There were various others.
And, um, and, um, and, yeah, uh, thathad a severe impact on my mental health.
(32:40):
So I was with that company for4 years, and before I left,
I I I got I went to therapy.
So that's Yeah.
So I totally resonate, uh, withthat kind of behavior Yeah.
Uh, and how it can have anegative impact because then
you don't know where you stand.
Right.
And the thing is we all we all havespeaking for myself that I know that I
(33:06):
will I've always known that I have my ownemotional baggage that I carry with you.
We all do.
Uh, so managers also have their own Yeah.
Their own baggage.
But I think, um, and now havingdone therapy and which I continue
to do, and I can I listen to lotsof other podcasts, including yours?
(33:30):
And now I have the tools that if Iwas faced with that, um, similar,
uh, same or similar scenario, I wouldprobably handle it very differently.
But at the time, I did nothave the tools to deal with it.
Right.
So yeah.
Yeah.
Thanks let's say thanks to the digitalage, I think also, um, more and more of
(33:51):
these stories are being shared, and moreinformation is available than ever before.
And, you know, often oftenpeople say, well, why didn't
we know about this before?
And I think, well, honestly, of course,I think we did experience it, we didn't
know about it, but what's also veryinteresting, and and I and we talked
about this just briefly before westarted the show, When I was when I
(34:12):
was, um, having people to come in andjoin, um, this series to talk about,
you know, work relationships, I thoughtit would be such an easy topic to talk
about and everyone would love to join.
But apparently, people are more willingto come in and talk about the devastation
of toxic relationships and love than theyare to talk about work relationships.
(34:33):
And and that fascinated me becauseit shows that and and this is 1 of
the reasons why I wanted to have thistopic for this series on the podcast
is because I think we know we knowabout it, but we don't talk about it.
And and it's you know, also, when we talkabout office politics or organizational
politics, we all know it exists.
(34:55):
But there doesn't seem to be any moreinformation about how to deal with it.
Business schools don't even teach youabout office politics, generally speaking.
And and so what's really interesting isis that now with more information coming
out there, we're starting to listen we'restarting to learn more and and starting
to identify when certain behaviors arenot good and what can we do about it.
And that's why I think these storiesand also the stories that you're sharing
(35:18):
today are so important to the listeners.
And I think there's so many peopleout there right now listening to your
personal experience and think, damn it.
I'm going through that right nowor, you know, I went through that a
couple of months ago or last year.
And what you've also mentioned is thatand this is just the unfortunate truth
of spending 2 thirds of our life atwork is that if things don't go well
(35:39):
at work, it has a huge impact on us.
Massive.
Yeah.
Massive.
I have never experienced the thelevels of stress and anxiety, um,
like, I I went I have panic attacks,uh, essentially, something that
I have never experienced before.
Um, but as I said, I Idid not have the tools.
(36:03):
Right.
So the work that I've been doing onmyself, which I thoroughly recommend
that everyone should go and do it, justyou know, you cannot change anybody.
Uh, you can only change yourself.
You can only arm yourself with the toolsto deal with those those kind of issues.
Yeah.
Uh, beg and that is for thebenefit of your own mental health.
(36:24):
Mental health.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Uh, and it will help you navigate,uh, the, uh, the office politics.
Because I I was talking to, um, afriend of mine from a university
that moved to Dubai, uh, at thebeginning of April as the managing
director for a pharmaceutical company.
(36:45):
Um, and he was talking to me about thefinance director's sort of reaction
to a particular situation, and andand he was saying to her, look.
Don't worry about it.
Don't panic because this is not about you.
It's about the company, okay,so don't take it personally.
(37:06):
Yeah.
And the thing is we sometimes thinkthat whatever is going on in the
office is about us, is somebodytrying to get to us, somebody.
You know, in these examples that,uh, that I gave about experiences
that, uh, I have been through, uh,yes, it was it was related to me.
(37:27):
But I don't think the the thinking ofthe manager is not, I want to really
make her life really, really difficult.
Right.
Uh, I think their perspectiveis, uh, I'm gonna do this because
that is going to elevate me.
So it's not about it's usually, youknow, we don't factor into the equation.
(37:48):
Right.
Uh, it's just their way of doingthings, so that elevates them with total
disregard how that impacts on others.
True.
And and and and I'm happy you said thatbecause there's so many factors that it
can impact someone to behave in a bad way.
And, you know, we we we often alsowant to and I and I mean, most of
the times when when a bad managercontinuously, um, treats people,
(38:09):
mistreats people, then definitelythere's something of character there.
Um, but also we should not forgetabout the environment because, you
know, environments can also have ahuge impact on people's behaviors.
And so if if toxic environments allowfor that behavior to happen, uh, or
almost promote it in that sense, then ofcourse, that kind of behavior, even if
you're not of, let's say, quote unquote,um, a bad manager or someone who can,
(38:34):
you know, who someone who shows a lotof toxic behaviors in the workplace,
it can actually make you that way.
Right?
So your environment has a huge impactalso on how you behave and how you
treat others, especially becauseyou observe how other people are
being treated in the organization.
Look, and I haven't shared much from myexperiences, but I've gone through my fair
share of of, you know, office politics.
(38:56):
And, um, and, um, I I considermyself someone who's fairly
resilient in that perspective.
And and because sometimesyou are very resilient, you
take on more than you should.
And then there comes a point inyour in your life that you sit
down and think about, holy crap.
I've actually taken on so muchcrap actually from certain people
(39:18):
around me or I've I've allowedcertain behaviors to happen.
And and you don't do anything about it.
And and then I think that my keytakeaway from this is just that watch
out because it can like you said, itcan really hurt you in in the long run.
And the moment that you addressit, that can use it also be
extremely challenging in itself.
(39:39):
But I think it's so important becauseyou stand for what you believe in.
You stand for your values.
And and I think that's equally asimportant as, you know, identifying it
and and knowing how to I mean, not onlykind of identify but addressing it.
Because addressing it, even though youcan't solve the issue, because then
sometimes you have to leave and sometimesyou can resolve the conflict, but, you
(40:03):
know, I think I think addressing it.
If a lot of people walk away,they're thinking, look, I
can't do anything about it.
It's the kind of helplessness.
Um, you know, I'm justgoing to be stung if I do.
My managers are not going to protect me.
This environment is not gonna protect me.
Um, and and even then I would say don't,you know, don't just stand there and be
the helpless dog sitting in the corner.
(40:24):
You know, stand up and saysomething about it because
that's saying something about it.
Even though you can't address yourmanager, you can go to an, you know,
someone in HR or maybe speak tosomeone else, a confidant or whoever.
That can e can then give you thatperspective of realization because
you might be so tunnel visioned intoyour work and your day to day stuff
(40:45):
that you lose track of what's real.
And if you continuously are affectedby, you know, different, um, negative
behaviors and toxic environments,then you you lose track of that.
And I think that's why it's alsoreally important to verbalize it and
address it because that's equallyhealing in a sense because it does
give you that sense of reality.
(41:07):
I I couldn't I couldn't agree more.
Uh, and in fact, something that, um,you you read about earlier that the
lady that said, well, you know, for2 years, I just put my head down and
carry on working like that, all of that.
I think that, um, what that does, thatdoesn't resolve the issue, uh, neither
for you nor for the other people.
And what I have found uh, isthat if you actually stand up for
(41:31):
yourself and if you speak out Yeah.
Um, it resolves the, uh, the issuebecause other people are behaving.
Some people, uh, they push the boundaries.
They all it's like children.
They always they always testing to seehow far How far you can go from someone.
It's the same with, uh, bullies.
You know?
They keep they're pushing theboundaries to see how far they can go.
(41:55):
And if you stand up for yourself, um,then, um, it actually changes behavior.
Yeah.
And I have a good example, uh, actually,of this was actually a a a client who, um,
sent an email, uh, criticizing negativelycriticizing some work that I had done.
(42:20):
The, um, the the lawyer that wasresponsible for that, uh, for that
client, um, sent an email, like, yes.
You know, it's all my fault.
I should have sent.
I should have done.
And then I said, I would liketo respond to that email.
(42:41):
So I responded to the email, and Idemonstrated, uh, with the facts and
the law that I was correct, uh, andI copied everybody on that email.
Touche.
Nobody nobody replied to that email.
Yeah.
The person I addressed it todid not reply to that email.
(43:04):
And now I I am the lawyer ofchoice, a go to person, and I am
loved within their organization.
And to me, that just demonstratesthat if you stand up for yourself,
um, believe that you are worthy,that you are value valuable, um, and,
(43:29):
you know, you stand up for yourself.
Yeah.
You know?
Respect respect yourself above aboveall others because I love that example.
You can only you can only, and and Iuse that example in my in conversations
that I've had with, uh, other lawyers.
Um, it's like, you know, this is whathappened, and it is because, you know,
(43:52):
it is because I stood up for myselfand I demonstrated that you earned
the respect of other of other people.
So And but you can also imagine that canbe very difficult for people listening
now, you know, not feeling as confident.
Um, that that would be hard to do.
So what would you recommend topeople that don't feel as confident?
(44:14):
What could they do specifically, and howcould they address, like, being either
attacked or bullied or I mean, this isa big topic in a sense, but what would
you recommend to people that, you know,now who are now listening that don't
feel that confident to speak up againstsomeone in authority, in a in a manager
or Well, um, you know, uh, because we weall have our own baggage, as I was going
(44:37):
about to say earlier, we often react tothings rather than respond to things.
My recommendation is, um, if youeven if you're writing an email
reply, save it in the drafts.
Document it.
Sleep on it.
Sleep on it.
Yeah.
Read it in the morning, and then seeif you still feel the same way or not.
(45:02):
Uh, but don't rush, uh, at reactingto something and recognize that
you are reacting rather thanresponding to a particular situation.
And, also, talk to someonewithin the organization or
outside of the organization, butsomeone that you can talk to.
Um, don't feel that youare alone because Yeah.
(45:24):
Because you were not we all have youknow, I have my own insecurities,
and and I know where they come from.
And because of the work that I'vedone, uh, for example, I can recognize
when I'm being triggered by a Yeah.
By a work environment.
So, and those triggers are notas strong as they once were.
Uh, so talk to someone.
Talking is really important.
Absolutely.
(45:44):
Yeah.
And if maybe maybe what else where youcould say is that when when you don't know
who to talk to, then maybe a good idea isto go and to speak to people that you do
know and ask them maybe who to speak to.
And maybe that is also a goodadvice because not everyone
always has access to everyone.
Um, again, it kind of brings backto validating your own standpoint.
(46:07):
Am I am I is this real, whatI'm experiencing right now?
Because sometimes, you know, havingbeing put into a very weird situation
or either abusive situation or, uh, atoxic situation, and if you've never
had that experience before, yourfight or flight kind of kicks in.
Right?
And so a lot of people do freeze,and and and that's unfortunate.
(46:29):
And I think that's why listening,if they're listening to this
right now, it kind of gives themthose kind of tools of what to do.
Right?
Speak to someone, speak to anHR manager, um, document things.
I think that's really, really good.
Um, and so yeah.
No.
I think that's really good advice.
Even if it is just a way of youreleasing, uh, that sort of stress.
Getting it out of your system.
(46:49):
Getting it out of your system.
Yeah.
Uh, and, you know, considerconsider finding a counselor,
psychologist, therapy, whatever.
Um, we're gonna we're coming to aa closure of, uh, of this podcast.
Story.
(47:09):
Micromanagement.
I wanted to talk about managers that don'tstick to promises, but I think we have to
have a continuing discussion on this 1.
Um, so just to wrap up because thiscourse is called Red Flags, Green Flags.
Um, and we did talk a little bit aboutgood behaviors and bad behaviors,
but let's just quickly wrap up.
What would be for you the 2biggest red flags in management
(47:31):
and 2 green flags in management?
Right.
Um, red red flags would be, um, as I'vementioned before, uh, when you you you
see that you're not given, uh, all theinformation that you need, for example,
(47:51):
when you when your manager asks youto do something, but doesn't give you
clear instructions, um, for example.
Withholds information.
Withholds information, um, becauseknowledge is power, and I need to
keep all the information for myselfso that I can elevate myself.
Um, so that that would be 1.
(48:12):
You wanted 2.
Right?
Yeah.
1 more.
1 more.
I I can't think of a of ofanother 1, to be honest.
But agree uh, that, like, talk about agreen flag, and the green flag for me
would be, uh, someone that if you aska question, for example, he gives you,
(48:34):
um, a full, uh, answer and is clear.
If he doesn't know, I don't know,but you can go some to this other
place and find and find it there.
Um, someone that is really not tryingto, uh, to hold you back, then Yeah.
That would be a green flag for me andsomeone that is That's just a flag.
(48:54):
Demonstrating demonstrating goodmanagement management skills.
Amazing.
Perfect.
Thank you so much for, uh, forbeing here today, Candida, and
and sharing your experiences.
I I was as I was listening to you aboutyour personal stories, and you also
told me at the same time about yourtherapy and your own development, did
(49:16):
this in any way, this conversationspeaking to so many people sharing
your story now knowing that thousandsof people are gonna listen to this,
is this in any way therapeutic to you?
You know, it is.
And recently, I've been listening to,um, podcasts, uh, about, um, you know,
what people journeys that people gothrough in their lives, and I found
(49:38):
that, uh, very helpful for myself.
So I hope that sharing my experiences,um, that will help other people and
will resonate with other people and willhelp them to either understand better
what is going on in their in their workenvironment or or even if it is just to go
and seek help because everyone is valued.
(50:03):
Uh, everyone, uh, has worth, and, um,they should they should value themselves.
Fantastic.
Candida, thanks again for beingon the show, and, um, look forward
to to meeting up with you again.
Thank you very much for having me.
It's a pleasure.
And so for everyone listening, um, rightnow, so thank you for listening in today,
(50:23):
and, um, I look forward to having youback in my next episodes where we're gonna
be talking much more about red flags andgreen flags at work, about bad management,
and, of course, about toxic relationshipsand back starting colleagues.
That happens a lot.
But more importantly, howcan we deal effectively with
difficult situations at work?
Because it's so important toour lives and our well-being.
(50:44):
So much more to come and, uh, lookforward to speaking to you then and
also, uh, having you back on our show.
Oh, and last thing that I want tomention, if you're not following me
yet on social media, um, please do.
Um, my handle is modern day psychologiston both TikTok and on Instagram.
And, of course, I will be sharing,um, Candida's, uh, info if you'd
(51:05):
like to be in contact with herthrough our socials as well.
Pleasure.
Thank you very much forhaving me, miss Brina.
I look forward to seeing you again.
Fantastic.
Are you ready?
Are you ready?
Welcome back everyone to a newepisode of Red Flags, Green Flags,
Modern Psychology for Everyday Drama.
(00:22):
In this season, we are talking aboutwork relationships, specifically
focusing on red and green flags at work.
We spend about 2 thirds of our lives atwork, and so building strong and positive
relationships at work is critical ifwe want to have a successful career.
It's not just about what you know,but it's also who you know and
how you engage with others thatleads to better work outcomes.
(00:43):
The aim of this season is to helplisteners better understand the
drama that happens at work andto provide deep insights to why
people behave the way they do.
Also, we will discuss differentstrategies on how to deal with workplace
drama from working with difficultcolleagues and managers to how to
survive in a toxic work environment.
By using a psychological lens tointerpret real life experiences at
(01:05):
work, we can gain better insights onhow best to navigate the complexity of
modern work and organizational life.
Now, it is often said that we getattracted to companies for what they
stand for and the reputation they have,but that we also often leave a company
due to bad relationship with a manager.
Your relationship with your manageris crucial to your success in the
(01:28):
organization and also to your career.
Good managers help you grow,succeed, and even flourish.
Competent and confident managers oftenlook for people who are better and
smarter than themselves because theyenjoy seeing others grow and succeed.
Bad managers on the other hand areoften fearful of the abilities of high
performing employees scared that theirjob will be on the line if outperformed.
(01:50):
Other examples of bad management arepeople who micromanage their employees
or take credit for work done by others.
The way your manager treats you canimpact you in so many different ways,
and a bad manager can significantly holdback your career progression and even
negatively affect your mental health.
And so joining me on my podcast todayto talk about how to deal with difficult
(02:12):
managers is Candida Pinto, a legalprofessional with over 20 years of
work experience in the legal industry.
Candida, welcome to the podcast.
Here in Dubai.
It is an absolutepleasure to have you here.
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Thank you for being here.
So maybe you can tell us a littlebit more about what you do and, um,
(02:34):
how long you've been here in Dubai.
Um, as some candidate painter,I'm a solicitor, uh, qualified,
uh, in England, uh, and Wales.
And I moved to Dubai,um, in September 20 13.
So it will be 10 years on the 20 ninth ofSeptember that I first arrived in Dubai.
(02:57):
Uh, I've been an in house legalcounsel for, um, companies
in the oil and gas sector.
And in December 20 20, I moved to a lawfirm, which is not a traditional law firm.
It's a bit of a disruptor in thelegal profession, uh, where we had
a we worked from anywhere we were.
(03:19):
Uh, we did not have an office,uh, and we were like sort of
independent independent lawyers.
And in April 20 23, uh, I movedback in house, uh, as head of the
legal department for a companyin the oil and gas sector still.
Good.
Seems like you you've had avery, uh, fruitful career,
(03:42):
um, in the legal industry.
Do you find that, for example, now inDubai, working also for such a long
time in in the legal industry, thatit's very different than in other areas
around the world that you've worked?
Yes.
And I think there are, um, whether it'syou are an in house legal counsel or
(04:03):
whether you work for a law firm, thereare other complexities that you have to
take into account in the work environment,um, such as cultural differences, which
often can be miss misinterpreted, um,you know, as somebody perhaps behaving
(04:27):
in a manner that, um, is not agreeablewith you, um, because you come from well,
I lived most of my life in in the UK.
I am Portuguese, um, by birth.
So I understand 2 different cultures.
But now here in Dubai, I needto understand a variety of
other cultures because this isa very diverse, uh, community.
(04:50):
And there's a lot ofpeople here of course.
There's a lot of people here.
Yeah.
So, um, management skills and,um, takes a whole other dimension
because you have to factor into, uh,into it the cultural differences.
Yeah.
And everyone has a differentapproach if you come from
India, Middle East, or Europe.
Absolutely.
Different perspectives ofwhat management is, authority.
(05:13):
Absolutely.
And the relationships between themanager and the, uh, the people senior
to the manager and the within theorganization, which the manner in which
the manager may behave or manages,uh, its direct reports, um, and in my
experience is highly influenced by theculture, um, that the manager comes from.
(05:37):
Great.
Great.
And then I think yeah.
And So absolutely.
And I think in today's podcast, whenwe're gonna talk about bad management
and what causes bad management or evengood management for that matter of
fact, I think culture, as you mentioned,plays a huge role in that and also
how we interpret certain behaviors andof what's right and what's not right.
Before we actually jump into thenuts and bolts about red flags and
(05:59):
bad management, I would like to askyou, um, how would you rate your own
management skills from from 0 to 10 ifyou could give yourself a number and why?
Right.
Um, I would say 8 to 9.
And the reason I say that is actually,like, in your introduction, you
(06:23):
mentioned all the things that I believein, um, as a as a manager and how
managing people, uh, should look like.
And 1 of the things is that, um,I believe in raising everybody
around me, uh, whoever they are.
(06:46):
Um, I I share knowledge.
I'm very open about sharing knowledge,uh, and helping other people grow.
Because I've always believed that ifyou have a happy team working with
you, that, uh, they feel happy tobe with you, uh, they listen to you,
(07:06):
they feel heard, they feel valued.
Um, you even if they have moreexperience than you or they
know more than you, you rise.
As they rise, you also rise becauseyour team is gonna make you look good.
(07:28):
So if you support your team and ifyou give them the tools to to thrive
and to develop, uh, as as lawyers,um, or, you know, whoever whether
whatever the uh, the, uh, the job maybe, um, then you're gonna look good.
Amazing.
(07:49):
So so for you, seeing other peoplegrow and develop is something
that you also enjoy doing then.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
I think that's I think that's a reallygood hallmark of a of a good manager.
Right?
Especially when you managepeople, it's not about yourself.
It's about what you do for other people.
Uh, yes.
And at the end of the day, particularlywhen you are, um, an in in house, you're
(08:14):
you're working for the enterprise.
Okay?
If you're in a law firm and you area partner, you're kind of working
for yourself, so it's slightly thethe dynamics are very different.
Um, but you are workingfor the enterprise.
And if the enterprise is doing well,making money and profit, um, then you
(08:36):
have a job, you get paid, you may geta pay rise or bonuses or or whatever.
So, uh, it's for the benefitof the collective rather than
the benefit of the individual.
Of the individual.
But I can also imagine at the same timeworking for a law firm, it seems to
me like a high pressure environment.
Right?
It's the the pressure is always on.
(08:56):
You have to deliver, um, andand, you know, I guess this the
task that you actually engagewith are not very light things.
I mean, law is law.
How do you interpret it?
You've got to do with deal with conflict.
Explain how how you as a managerthen help your people, uh, the
lawyers in that in that matter, toto work effectively together and and
(09:21):
to deal really well with pressure?
Um, my my experience in a traditionallaw firm is, uh, is is limited, um,
but but, you know, having had someexperience in in the with that argentum,
you are always uh, working againstvery tight deadline deadlines usually.
(09:46):
Personally, I tend to when everyoneis fretting around me and getting all
stressed, I tend to go really calm.
Um, and then sort of insteadof, um, just talking a lot, I
think, first, I look at Before.
(10:07):
Before Responding.
Before responding.
And I think look at look at the facts, andthere has been, uh, I'm I'm thinking of
sort of situations where I have been wheremanagers are making emotional decisions,
and then I have to go back and look atthe facts and then say, you know, um, yes.
(10:29):
I understand where you're coming from.
It's very irritating and all ofthat, but, uh, uh, let's look at
this from this perspective as wellbecause it might be more beneficial
to look at things this way.
Yeah.
You do come across as someone who is veryreflective, who is very thoughtful, um,
and but I can also imagine that a lot ofmanagers working in a similar environment
(10:52):
might have a very different personality.
Could you give some examples of, you know,other management styles that you've seen
based on different personality traits, ormaybe how people behave that you either
considered either positive or maybeeven negative for that matter of fact?
Um, well, I I can only speak, uh, for, um,past managers that, um, that I had and the
(11:15):
experiences that, um, that I went through.
And 2 jobs that I had in the past,I left because of the manager.
1 of them, when I was in the UK, if If itwasn't for the manager, I would probably
still be, uh, with the company today.
Um, but I actually thank him becausethat gave me the opportunity to
(11:36):
come to Dubai, and my experiencehere in Dubai has been very rich.
So when 1 door closes, another 1 opens.
Another 1 opens.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
But I didn't quite think andsee it that way at the time.
Um, I I think 1 problem, sometimesthe problem is, and it was the case,
(11:57):
uh, in with that manager that I had,um, is that people believe that in
order to elevate themselves, theyneed to suppress those that Yeah.
Are below them.
That's unfortunate.
That are below them.
Yeah.
Uh, and that creates a difficultenvironment because, uh, erodes trust
(12:19):
between uh, the employee and the manager.
And you need to have trust, uh, inorder for the organization to operate,
uh, effectively and efficiently.
And also for employees toalso give their best Yes.
In the organization.
Uh, and and that sort of negativebehavior is not necessarily a
(12:40):
a manager who is loud, shoutsa lot, raises his voice at you.
You say his voice?
His voice.
Yeah.
In this case, it was a it was a he.
Yes.
I think in both cases, it was a he.
Um, but is is the, is the waysometimes things are done, uh,
(13:05):
which are clearly designed eitherto undermine you or to distance
you, to make you feel like devalued.
Right.
Um, as well.
It is.
(13:25):
So it's Yeah.
The behavior can take, uh, youknow, I've experienced, uh, also
somebody that threatened to hitme, but, uh That's terrible.
So Yeah.
Uh, you know, it can be, um,uh, a variety, um, of behaviors.
Behaviors that can manifest.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
It's not necessarilyallowed and an aggressive 1.
(13:46):
No.
No.
It's interesting.
We can talk about that.
I think, you know, some some elementsof people's bad behaviors can be linked
to maybe sometimes incompetencies.
Mhmm.
But it can also often be related toeither personality style or insecurities
that people might have in the workplace.
And especially with managers that, um,you know, I like well, I don't wanna say
just incompetent, but sometimes thoseinsecurities that managers bring Yes.
(14:10):
Into the workplace, you know,really help makes them do things
that are not really productive ornot very helpful to other people.
And you gave this example of wantingto suppress other people Mhmm.
Um, just for themselves to look better.
And I I often I I see that a lot alsoin organizations when I assess, you
know, behaviors and productivity andwell-being of employees and organizations.
(14:30):
And I, you know, I often saythat a players choose a players,
but b players choose c players.
Mhmm.
And that's so clear in an organizationbecause you see that the b players who
are very fearful of, you know, otherpeople showing up and and them potentially
looking bad that they they would tend tohire people that are, you know, which they
(14:52):
believe are significantly low in terms ofperformance and personality and behaviors.
Get rid of the people that theysee as a threat potentially.
Correct.
Yeah.
And and and and then also the peoplethat they have in place, they they often,
um, will also mistreat them as a wayto kind of make themselves feel better.
And then and, unfortunately, thathappens a lot in organizations.
(15:14):
Yes.
Yeah.
And then my in my case, it was that themanager, uh, came into the organization.
Um, I knew that that was going to happen.
I knew that there there were reasonswhy, um, he would come in and as sort
of the the head of the legal department,uh, and I was perfectly happy with that.
(15:38):
And I when he joined, I took himaround to present introduced him
to everybody and and all of that.
But I had, uh, at that time,I already had, um, 8 years
of service with a company.
So I had well established relationships,um, both within the, uh, the organization
(16:03):
as well as, um, external players,uh, clients, and and vendors, and
make us part of my job in community.
You were saying that regardless of whathappened to you, thanks to those personal
relationships that you had built up, youhad some kind of buffer or protection?
I had I had a, uh, had a strong positionwithin the organization, um, because
(16:28):
I was regarded as sort of a a trusted,uh, employee employee and somebody
that, uh, manages and and and the otherpeople within the organization would
come to me for, uh, advice and support.
And I've always operated an open doorpolicy, and whatever question, uh, I
(16:49):
am asked, uh, even if it is not a legalquestion, I never say it is not my job
because I always respond to the question.
Uh, even if it is to say, um, yeah.
I think this and that, but, uh,it might be best that you double
check with someone else becausethey may know slightly better.
(17:09):
But, you know, I can sort of direct youin the right in in the right position.
So so so that was more of a let's say,you were saying that that would be
more of a a way of maintaining yourselfin the organization of having a good
reputation, a, you know, a strong networkas a way of feeling protected from What?
(17:30):
From bad management?
How how does this relate?
Well, the the the this relates thatto the with the manager when he came
in because I already had that sort ofreputation within the organization.
I think he felt threatened.
Uh, okay.
Got it.
Threatened by that strong reputationthat I have within the organization, um,
(17:52):
and felt overshadowed perhaps by by me.
So I took steps to, um, kind ofthe end result, it was to sort
of demote me and to distance mefrom having direct contact Right.
(18:14):
Right.
With the with the managers sothat he could be in between
the managers and and myself.
Yeah.
That's a very In order to elevate himselfand and and to feel that he was the 1
that had the power and the authoritywithin the organization and not me.
Yeah.
It's very unfortunate that thathappens because, you know, 1 I think
1 major red flag and, you know, withwith managers with ill intent is when
(18:39):
they see that you might be a highperformer or very well connected,
that they know that if something goeswrong, you always have access to other
people, other decision makers in theorganization that you can speak to.
And so 1 specific behavior that comesup a lot, um, is that when that fear
is there that sometimes managerscan try to isolate you Correct.
(19:01):
From the rest of the organization.
Correct.
And and so that way, they they canensure that you know nobody sees you,
um, even though you have a very strongreputation that they'll see you less.
Uh, they might be able to talk badabout you because of that, you know,
um, and then you would not have accessto people or not just your network,
but also information sometimes.
(19:22):
Correct.
Absolutely.
Uh, and this this particular,uh, manager is is is an example
of all of that because, um, soonafter he joined the company, I I
went on secondment to a law firm.
Um, this was an arrangement betweenthe company and the law firm and, uh,
(19:44):
that I was going to to be secondedto them for 8 months, and a lawyer
from the law firm would come and, uh,uncover for me, um, in the office.
And it was part of, um, myagreement with the company Mhmm.
That whilst on secondment, I wouldstill support, um, the company
(20:07):
during those 8 months Right.
That I was gonna be out.
Uh, and soon soon before, um, I left togo on secondment, uh, I was prohibited
from communicating with anyone inthe company during those 8 months.
Wow.
And Yeah.
And what was the reason behind that?
(20:27):
No reason.
I wasn't given a reason.
So, uh, because I had dealt with, um, atransaction where documents were with a
notary public in the custody of a notarypublic, and they would only release
(20:48):
those documents once we ordered themto do so and to take the next steps.
Uh, it was a day or 2 after I leftthat a colleague of mine from the
Norwegian office sent an email tome copying my manager and everybody
(21:08):
inquiring about those documents,and I responded to that email and
everyone, including my my manager, um,just to say where the documents were.
And then the next thing Iknew, I was called into the
office for disciplinary action.
(21:30):
So, um, yeah, that's, um, thatwas his way of Getting rid of you.
Well, try Yeah.
Trying to, but you obviously wouldyou wouldn't be able to for those
8 months that I was on secondment.
But, but as soon as I I returned as soonas I returned to the company, even though
(21:51):
my agreement was that I would remainwith the company for at least a year,
but I I left immediately after Yeah.
You don't wanna staythere anymore after that.
Absolutely.
No.
I was I mean I I mean, I wanted tothrow something of a soft landing
in here saying, like, how difficult,you know, bad situations can play
out in law firms because everyoneknows the law in that perspective.
(22:12):
So I would not want to I wouldn'tI could not imagine how that
would play out in that sense.
Like, everyone knows thelaw, so if bad things happen,
you know exactly what to do.
I don't know.
Is that a case?
Just for the layman's perspective here,but Well, from my limited experience,
uh, with law firms, and this is acomment that I have made in the past,
(22:32):
that it always surprises me thatbehaviors like this, they still take
place in law firms even though you wouldhave thought that lawyers know best.
Right.
But, unfortunately, they're notimmune to that kind of bad behavior.
Yeah.
No 1 is, apparently.
No no 1 is.
No 1 is.
So so looking back in your thankyou for showing that, first of all.
(22:54):
And and and and so, Candida, looking backin your overall, you know, career, and
what what would you then kind of describe?
What would be some examples of reallybad bosses in terms of behavior?
And but what also kind of otherexamples you've given your own
today, but what would you also givesome examples of good behaviors?
Good behaviors.
Or exemplary behaviorsof a of a good boss?
(23:20):
That's a difficult 1, actually.
The good ones or the bad ones?
The the good ones.
It's funny that you you remembermore the bad ones than you do Yeah.
Than you remember the the good ones.
So maybe we could just focus onthe But I I do have bad ones.
Yeah.
I I do have colleagues that there werecolleagues of mine, actually lawyers
as well, um, because the company wasa multinational, and we had lawyers
(23:43):
in in the UK, in Oslo, in Houston.
And a colleague of mine fromthe Houston office, uh, that was
actually a very good, um, support.
And I often spoke spoke to him, uh,about the goings on in the office.
Right.
So you're saying support supportprovided by a manager is an
(24:07):
example of a good behavior?
Yes.
Yes.
Okay.
Okay.
Yes.
Well, any other examples that you cancome up with that you can think of?
Now you put me on the spot.
Maybe I can share maybe I can share 1that that I think is really important.
I I well, I and it comes back to what yousaid before, managers that elevate you.
Right?
Really managers that give you wingsand the resources and the support.
(24:30):
And elevation doesn't always haveto mean, like, oh, here's all the
resources that you need to have.
Sometimes it is a manager that givesyou a a challenging opportunity to work
on so that you can grow and flourishand learn, and then he or she being
that support mechanism for you asyou go through that new experience.
(24:51):
Correct.
And I'm also thinking of my current,um, my current job, and, um, I I report
directly to the president of the company.
Uh, and I do feel that Ihave that I have his back.
Um, and that that that kind ofbehavior can be reflected very sadly.
(25:14):
Yeah.
Uh, and even if it is to communicate toother members and to other managers in
the company that, for example, they needto come to me about about certain certain
matters and to discuss them with me beforethey take any action, that kind of thing.
So it doesn't have to be, uh, giving youa big job with great competent and Yeah.
(25:43):
Yeah.
That you have a role to play.
Right.
So, um, all of that is positive,uh, positive behavior Right.
Which gives you a sense of, um, you know,worth and, um, and security as well.
And, you know, you don't feellike I'm gonna be thrown under
(26:04):
the bus in any minute now.
Right.
So So yeah.
And I like how you said that.
It's not just only, the thingsthat they do for you, but how
they make you feel and Correct.
Yeah.
Like, giving you autonomy, givingyou the opportunity to speak and
make decisions, um, not only makeyou feel supported, but recognizing
you as well for your accomplishments.
Um, I mean, it's it's almost like anykind of relationship anywhere where
(26:26):
someone supports you and helps youto to be able to do your job and and
also has your back when you have totake some time, because sometimes
you have to make difficult decisions.
Or sometimes you have to take risks.
And, you know, sometimes thereare no procedures for the
things that you need to do.
And do you does not just maybe theenvironment, but does that manager
make you feel that you can speak up?
I think that's a really nicething that you mentioned.
(26:47):
I've got a reallyinteresting question for you.
And, um, this is also, um, I'll probablyI'll I'll share with you first because
I also ask my audience and followerson Instagram, um, about, um, of them
sharing also some experiences with us.
And I would love to get yourperspective on this, and then
I'll follow-up with a question.
Um, so this this, um, commentactually came from, um, a lady
(27:11):
called Niharika based out of India.
And she is a high performing softwareengineer, um, who says that when
a new female tech lead joined thecompany, she made her life a hell.
The tech lead didn't lead likeher, uh, from the beginning at
all and, uh, just found ways toto make her look bad publicly,
but also, uh, secretively as well.
(27:34):
So spoke bad about her behind her back.
And, um, her own manager, who was alsoa female, wasn't supportive either to
her, even though she knew her longerthan she knew the new tech lead, and
would also take sides of of that newlady that joined the company at times.
Neha Rika says that she refused to reactto these bad behaviors and engage in it.
(27:55):
Just put my head down, you know,just let me do my job and I'll
just I'll just move on with it.
But over a period of 2 years,um, it significantly impacted her
mental health, but also stoppedher from advancing in the company.
What's your take on this?
No.
I just, uh, yes.
Recognize?
I recognize all I recognize all of that.
(28:16):
Um, I've never had um, female managers.
My managers have always been male, but Ihave I've had female female colleagues.
Um, so my experience with femalecolleagues has been generally positive.
Uh, but with managers, um, yeah,um, I recognize all all of that.
(28:42):
Um, and Which you've observed from peoplearound you, or I'm also from what I I
experienced myself and how, um, Bathmanages by, um, you know what what she
mentioned, which is kind of similar towhat happened to me in the job that I had
before, um, I joined Agennta, And thatwas, um, a meeting was going to occur, and
(29:12):
I was meant to be attending that meeting,but I wasn't told about the meeting.
And this was a time when weekendwas Friday and Saturday, uh,
when on a Thursday afternoonOh, so that was in Dubai then?
That was in Yeah.
Okay.
Got it.
Got it.
Uh, on a Thursday afternoon, I wentto see my manager and asked, uh, to
(29:34):
ask if I could take, um, half Sundayafternoon off because I was going
to a lunch on Sunday afternoon.
And then I was told there was gonna be ameeting on Sunday with the, um, uh, with
the CFO that was coming from Houston.
Just for the listeners outthere, that that time Sunday
(29:56):
was the Monday Was it Yeah.
In the Arab world.
Correct.
And the UAE has changed in that.
Yeah.
Just so that everyone understands Correct.
The context.
Um, so and, um, and I said,what's the meeting about?
I don't know.
Uh, what time is the meeting?
I don't know.
Then Sunday morning, I was in theoffice, and the finance director
(30:19):
came by my office and said, um, no.
Your manager said you werenot gonna be in today.
And I said, um, no.
This is the conversation thatI have on Thursday afternoon.
What time is the meeting?
1 30.
I said, right.
I'll cancel lunch.
(30:39):
And you went to the meeting?
So I canceled lunch, andI went to the meeting.
Fantastic.
When I when eventually he had tocall me for the meeting, so I arrive
at the meeting, and I see that onon the table, there were, uh, some
slides printed and stapled together.
And I picked up a set of slides.
(31:03):
And that was all aboutthe work that we do.
And at the time, I was lookingafter the Asia Pacific region.
So he was taking credit for your work?
Well, um, I I I don't know whetherit was I I I don't know what
was his thinking, um, but thenvery legal answer, by the way.
I I looked I looked I looked at theslides, and then, uh, and then he
(31:28):
said, uh, well, I'll I'll talk about,uh, Middle Eastern Africa and Canada.
We'll talk about Asia Pacific.
And I thought, um, well, thanks, becausenow I'm to totally unprepared for this
meeting, and I have to think on my feet.
Did it turn out well for you?
So for me, it turned out well becausethen the, uh, the CFO wanted to
(31:49):
know about me, and, uh, so I I Itold him a bit of my trajectory.
And, basically, most of my jobs, uh,that I've had, it was because I was
persuaded to join those companies ratherthan actually me going going looking
for or or even applying for those jobs.
So I I had been headhunted,um, like, twice before.
(32:14):
Um, so for me, it it went well, butthat is a good example of, um, the
kind of behavior that can cause anenormous amount of stress and anxiety.
For sure.
Uh, because that example isn't the only 1.
There were various others.
And, um, and, um, and, yeah, uh, thathad a severe impact on my mental health.
(32:40):
So I was with that company for4 years, and before I left,
I I I got I went to therapy.
So that's Yeah.
So I totally resonate, uh, withthat kind of behavior Yeah.
Uh, and how it can have anegative impact because then
you don't know where you stand.
Right.
And the thing is we all we all havespeaking for myself that I know that I
(33:06):
will I've always known that I have my ownemotional baggage that I carry with you.
We all do.
Uh, so managers also have their own Yeah.
Their own baggage.
But I think, um, and now havingdone therapy and which I continue
to do, and I can I listen to lotsof other podcasts, including yours?
(33:30):
And now I have the tools that if Iwas faced with that, um, similar,
uh, same or similar scenario, I wouldprobably handle it very differently.
But at the time, I did nothave the tools to deal with it.
Right.
So yeah.
Yeah.
Thanks let's say thanks to the digitalage, I think also, um, more and more of
(33:51):
these stories are being shared, and moreinformation is available than ever before.
And, you know, often oftenpeople say, well, why didn't
we know about this before?
And I think, well, honestly, of course,I think we did experience it, we didn't
know about it, but what's also veryinteresting, and and I and we talked
about this just briefly before westarted the show, When I was when I
(34:12):
was, um, having people to come in andjoin, um, this series to talk about,
you know, work relationships, I thoughtit would be such an easy topic to talk
about and everyone would love to join.
But apparently, people are more willingto come in and talk about the devastation
of toxic relationships and love than theyare to talk about work relationships.
(34:33):
And and that fascinated me becauseit shows that and and this is 1 of
the reasons why I wanted to have thistopic for this series on the podcast
is because I think we know we knowabout it, but we don't talk about it.
And and it's you know, also, when we talkabout office politics or organizational
politics, we all know it exists.
(34:55):
But there doesn't seem to be any moreinformation about how to deal with it.
Business schools don't even teach youabout office politics, generally speaking.
And and so what's really interesting isis that now with more information coming
out there, we're starting to listen we'restarting to learn more and and starting
to identify when certain behaviors arenot good and what can we do about it.
And that's why I think these storiesand also the stories that you're sharing
(35:18):
today are so important to the listeners.
And I think there's so many peopleout there right now listening to your
personal experience and think, damn it.
I'm going through that right nowor, you know, I went through that a
couple of months ago or last year.
And what you've also mentioned is thatand this is just the unfortunate truth
of spending 2 thirds of our life atwork is that if things don't go well
(35:39):
at work, it has a huge impact on us.
Massive.
Yeah.
Massive.
I have never experienced the thelevels of stress and anxiety, um,
like, I I went I have panic attacks,uh, essentially, something that
I have never experienced before.
Um, but as I said, I Idid not have the tools.
(36:03):
Right.
So the work that I've been doing onmyself, which I thoroughly recommend
that everyone should go and do it, justyou know, you cannot change anybody.
Uh, you can only change yourself.
You can only arm yourself with the toolsto deal with those those kind of issues.
Yeah.
Uh, beg and that is for thebenefit of your own mental health.
(36:24):
Mental health.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Uh, and it will help you navigate,uh, the, uh, the office politics.
Because I I was talking to, um, afriend of mine from a university
that moved to Dubai, uh, at thebeginning of April as the managing
director for a pharmaceutical company.
(36:45):
Um, and he was talking to me about thefinance director's sort of reaction
to a particular situation, and andand he was saying to her, look.
Don't worry about it.
Don't panic because this is not about you.
It's about the company, okay,so don't take it personally.
(37:06):
Yeah.
And the thing is we sometimes thinkthat whatever is going on in the
office is about us, is somebodytrying to get to us, somebody.
You know, in these examples that,uh, that I gave about experiences
that, uh, I have been through, uh,yes, it was it was related to me.
(37:27):
But I don't think the the thinking ofthe manager is not, I want to really
make her life really, really difficult.
Right.
Uh, I think their perspectiveis, uh, I'm gonna do this because
that is going to elevate me.
So it's not about it's usually, youknow, we don't factor into the equation.
(37:48):
Right.
Uh, it's just their way of doingthings, so that elevates them with total
disregard how that impacts on others.
True.
And and and and I'm happy you said thatbecause there's so many factors that it
can impact someone to behave in a bad way.
And, you know, we we we often alsowant to and I and I mean, most of
the times when when a bad managercontinuously, um, treats people,
(38:09):
mistreats people, then definitelythere's something of character there.
Um, but also we should not forgetabout the environment because, you
know, environments can also have ahuge impact on people's behaviors.
And so if if toxic environments allowfor that behavior to happen, uh, or
almost promote it in that sense, then ofcourse, that kind of behavior, even if
you're not of, let's say, quote unquote,um, a bad manager or someone who can,
(38:34):
you know, who someone who shows a lotof toxic behaviors in the workplace,
it can actually make you that way.
Right?
So your environment has a huge impactalso on how you behave and how you
treat others, especially becauseyou observe how other people are
being treated in the organization.
Look, and I haven't shared much from myexperiences, but I've gone through my fair
share of of, you know, office politics.
(38:56):
And, um, and, um, I I considermyself someone who's fairly
resilient in that perspective.
And and because sometimesyou are very resilient, you
take on more than you should.
And then there comes a point inyour in your life that you sit
down and think about, holy crap.
I've actually taken on so muchcrap actually from certain people
(39:18):
around me or I've I've allowedcertain behaviors to happen.
And and you don't do anything about it.
And and then I think that my keytakeaway from this is just that watch
out because it can like you said, itcan really hurt you in in the long run.
And the moment that you addressit, that can use it also be
extremely challenging in itself.
(39:39):
But I think it's so important becauseyou stand for what you believe in.
You stand for your values.
And and I think that's equally asimportant as, you know, identifying it
and and knowing how to I mean, not onlykind of identify but addressing it.
Because addressing it, even though youcan't solve the issue, because then
sometimes you have to leave and sometimesyou can resolve the conflict, but, you
(40:03):
know, I think I think addressing it.
If a lot of people walk away,they're thinking, look, I
can't do anything about it.
It's the kind of helplessness.
Um, you know, I'm justgoing to be stung if I do.
My managers are not going to protect me.
This environment is not gonna protect me.
Um, and and even then I would say don't,you know, don't just stand there and be
the helpless dog sitting in the corner.
(40:24):
You know, stand up and saysomething about it because
that's saying something about it.
Even though you can't address yourmanager, you can go to an, you know,
someone in HR or maybe speak tosomeone else, a confidant or whoever.
That can e can then give you thatperspective of realization because
you might be so tunnel visioned intoyour work and your day to day stuff
(40:45):
that you lose track of what's real.
And if you continuously are affectedby, you know, different, um, negative
behaviors and toxic environments,then you you lose track of that.
And I think that's why it's alsoreally important to verbalize it and
address it because that's equallyhealing in a sense because it does
give you that sense of reality.
(41:07):
I I couldn't I couldn't agree more.
Uh, and in fact, something that, um,you you read about earlier that the
lady that said, well, you know, for2 years, I just put my head down and
carry on working like that, all of that.
I think that, um, what that does, thatdoesn't resolve the issue, uh, neither
for you nor for the other people.
And what I have found uh, isthat if you actually stand up for
(41:31):
yourself and if you speak out Yeah.
Um, it resolves the, uh, the issuebecause other people are behaving.
Some people, uh, they push the boundaries.
They all it's like children.
They always they always testing to seehow far How far you can go from someone.
It's the same with, uh, bullies.
You know?
They keep they're pushing theboundaries to see how far they can go.
(41:55):
And if you stand up for yourself, um,then, um, it actually changes behavior.
Yeah.
And I have a good example, uh, actually,of this was actually a a a client who, um,
sent an email, uh, criticizing negativelycriticizing some work that I had done.
(42:20):
The, um, the the lawyer that wasresponsible for that, uh, for that
client, um, sent an email, like, yes.
You know, it's all my fault.
I should have sent.
I should have done.
And then I said, I would liketo respond to that email.
(42:41):
So I responded to the email, and Idemonstrated, uh, with the facts and
the law that I was correct, uh, andI copied everybody on that email.
Touche.
Nobody nobody replied to that email.
Yeah.
The person I addressed it todid not reply to that email.
(43:04):
And now I I am the lawyer ofchoice, a go to person, and I am
loved within their organization.
And to me, that just demonstratesthat if you stand up for yourself,
um, believe that you are worthy,that you are value valuable, um, and,
(43:29):
you know, you stand up for yourself.
Yeah.
You know?
Respect respect yourself above aboveall others because I love that example.
You can only you can only, and and Iuse that example in my in conversations
that I've had with, uh, other lawyers.
Um, it's like, you know, this is whathappened, and it is because, you know,
(43:52):
it is because I stood up for myselfand I demonstrated that you earned
the respect of other of other people.
So And but you can also imagine that canbe very difficult for people listening
now, you know, not feeling as confident.
Um, that that would be hard to do.
So what would you recommend topeople that don't feel as confident?
(44:14):
What could they do specifically, and howcould they address, like, being either
attacked or bullied or I mean, this isa big topic in a sense, but what would
you recommend to people that, you know,now who are now listening that don't
feel that confident to speak up againstsomeone in authority, in a in a manager
or Well, um, you know, uh, because we weall have our own baggage, as I was going
(44:37):
about to say earlier, we often react tothings rather than respond to things.
My recommendation is, um, if youeven if you're writing an email
reply, save it in the drafts.
Document it.
Sleep on it.
Sleep on it.
Yeah.
Read it in the morning, and then seeif you still feel the same way or not.
(45:02):
Uh, but don't rush, uh, at reactingto something and recognize that
you are reacting rather thanresponding to a particular situation.
And, also, talk to someonewithin the organization or
outside of the organization, butsomeone that you can talk to.
Um, don't feel that youare alone because Yeah.
(45:24):
Because you were not we all have youknow, I have my own insecurities,
and and I know where they come from.
And because of the work that I'vedone, uh, for example, I can recognize
when I'm being triggered by a Yeah.
By a work environment.
So, and those triggers are notas strong as they once were.
Uh, so talk to someone.
Talking is really important.
Absolutely.
(45:44):
Yeah.
And if maybe maybe what else where youcould say is that when when you don't know
who to talk to, then maybe a good idea isto go and to speak to people that you do
know and ask them maybe who to speak to.
And maybe that is also a goodadvice because not everyone
always has access to everyone.
Um, again, it kind of brings backto validating your own standpoint.
(46:07):
Am I am I is this real, whatI'm experiencing right now?
Because sometimes, you know, havingbeing put into a very weird situation
or either abusive situation or, uh, atoxic situation, and if you've never
had that experience before, yourfight or flight kind of kicks in.
Right?
And so a lot of people do freeze,and and and that's unfortunate.
(46:29):
And I think that's why listening,if they're listening to this
right now, it kind of gives themthose kind of tools of what to do.
Right?
Speak to someone, speak to anHR manager, um, document things.
I think that's really, really good.
Um, and so yeah.
No.
I think that's really good advice.
Even if it is just a way of youreleasing, uh, that sort of stress.
Getting it out of your system.
(46:49):
Getting it out of your system.
Yeah.
Uh, and, you know, considerconsider finding a counselor,
psychologist, therapy, whatever.
Um, we're gonna we're coming to aa closure of, uh, of this podcast.
Story.
(47:09):
Micromanagement.
I wanted to talk about managers that don'tstick to promises, but I think we have to
have a continuing discussion on this 1.
Um, so just to wrap up because thiscourse is called Red Flags, Green Flags.
Um, and we did talk a little bit aboutgood behaviors and bad behaviors,
but let's just quickly wrap up.
What would be for you the 2biggest red flags in management
(47:31):
and 2 green flags in management?
Right.
Um, red red flags would be, um, as I'vementioned before, uh, when you you you
see that you're not given, uh, all theinformation that you need, for example,
(47:51):
when you when your manager asks youto do something, but doesn't give you
clear instructions, um, for example.
Withholds information.
Withholds information, um, becauseknowledge is power, and I need to
keep all the information for myselfso that I can elevate myself.
Um, so that that would be 1.
(48:12):
You wanted 2.
Right?
Yeah.
1 more.
1 more.
I I can't think of a of ofanother 1, to be honest.
But agree uh, that, like, talk about agreen flag, and the green flag for me
would be, uh, someone that if you aska question, for example, he gives you,
(48:34):
um, a full, uh, answer and is clear.
If he doesn't know, I don't know,but you can go some to this other
place and find and find it there.
Um, someone that is really not tryingto, uh, to hold you back, then Yeah.
That would be a green flag for me andsomeone that is That's just a flag.
(48:54):
Demonstrating demonstrating goodmanagement management skills.
Amazing.
Perfect.
Thank you so much for, uh, forbeing here today, Candida, and
and sharing your experiences.
I I was as I was listening to you aboutyour personal stories, and you also
told me at the same time about yourtherapy and your own development, did
(49:16):
this in any way, this conversationspeaking to so many people sharing
your story now knowing that thousandsof people are gonna listen to this,
is this in any way therapeutic to you?
You know, it is.
And recently, I've been listening to,um, podcasts, uh, about, um, you know,
what people journeys that people gothrough in their lives, and I found
(49:38):
that, uh, very helpful for myself.
So I hope that sharing my experiences,um, that will help other people and
will resonate with other people and willhelp them to either understand better
what is going on in their in their workenvironment or or even if it is just to go
and seek help because everyone is valued.
(50:03):
Uh, everyone, uh, has worth, and, um,they should they should value themselves.
Fantastic.
Candida, thanks again for beingon the show, and, um, look forward
to to meeting up with you again.
Thank you very much for having me.
It's a pleasure.
And so for everyone listening, um, rightnow, so thank you for listening in today,
(50:23):
and, um, I look forward to having youback in my next episodes where we're gonna
be talking much more about red flags andgreen flags at work, about bad management,
and, of course, about toxic relationshipsand back starting colleagues.
That happens a lot.
But more importantly, howcan we deal effectively with
difficult situations at work?
Because it's so important toour lives and our well-being.
(50:44):
So much more to come and, uh, lookforward to speaking to you then and
also, uh, having you back on our show.
Oh, and last thing that I want tomention, if you're not following me
yet on social media, um, please do.
Um, my handle is modern day psychologiston both TikTok and on Instagram.
And, of course, I will be sharing,um, Candida's, uh, info if you'd
(51:05):
like to be in contact with herthrough our socials as well.
Pleasure.
Thank you very much forhaving me, miss Brina.
I look forward to seeing you again.
Fantastic.
Are you ready?
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