July 15, 2025 • 9 mins
I spoke with Mike Murray, the VP of Product Strategy for Veritext Legal Solutions. We discussed how AI is transforming litigation, areas that law firms should prioritize when integrating AI into their practices, and the ethical and regulatory considerations related to AI usage in the legal field.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to Reinventing Professionals,a podcast hosted by industry analyst
Ari Kaplan, which shares ideas,guidance, and perspectives from market
leaders shaping the next generationof legal and professional services.
This is Ari Kaplan, and I'm speakingtoday with Mike Murray, the Vice
(00:23):
President of Product Strategyfor Veritext Legal Solutions.
Hi Mike.
How are you?
I'm great.
How are you doing?
Great to speak with you.
It's been several years andI'm looking forward to it.
Tell us about your backgroundand your role at Veritext.
I recently moved into the VP of productStrategy, so I'm in charge at Veritext
(00:45):
of the strategy behind our productsand, where we're going, new advancements
and then hearing client feedback.
I've been with Veritext for 14years, which is wild to think about.
So I've seen a lot of change in boththe legal field and reporting field.
It's.
Completely different fromwhen I started, 14 years ago.
It's pretty amazing.
So I get basically get to playwith tech all day, so I love it.
(01:07):
How is artificial intelligencetransforming litigation?
It's changing it in a bunch ofways and we see it ex, popping up
in like basically every product.
And I think you see a lot of stuff that's.
I've been saying it's asolution in search of a problem.
Some of these AI toolsare a little, extraneous.
They're put in places here's a chat botthat you know, you don't really need.
(01:29):
The ones I think are successfulare the ones that are being really
integrated into the product.
So it may not even be called ai.
It may just be a reallyuseful feature, find the
inconsistencies in this transcript.
I don't need to knowhow it's working, but.
I think those are the toolsthat are really gonna be the
ones that are successful.
But it's, it's changing the waywe, the way attorneys work, the
way their support staff works.
(01:51):
A lot of different ways.
It's impacting it.
What factors should law, lawfirms prioritize when they're
integrating AI into their practicesto ensure security and compliance?
The biggest thing is you'd wantto know where your data's going.
Is your data being usedto train the model?
Are they ingesting your data andusing it to make their model smarter?
(02:14):
The downside of that is yourconfidential or more likely your.
Client's confidential datais now in their model.
So not making sure whatever toolyou're using is not used for training.
And then just your generaltechnology considerations.
Is the data encrypted, in transit and atrest and you know who has access to it.
I think those are elements.
(02:35):
And then there's the,the, how do you use it?
This kind of thing goes abit with compliance of like,
how do you actually use it?
And the thing I alwayssay is that this is.
An assistant.
This is never meant toreplace a lawyer's expertise.
And I always even go back to the A BAmodel rules of non-lawyer assistants.
This is a non-lawyer, and you areobligated as a lawyer to review that work.
(02:56):
And that's where I see the biggest.
Issues.
And I, the bunch of 'em have been in thenews, with the fake cases, that are being
put in motions and things like that.
So I think it's, actual technology,looking at the tools and the security and
all that, as well as ensuring the teams,your actual lawyers and stuff like that.
Know how to use it, knowthe best uses for it.
(03:17):
And then I think there's also a lot of,I've heard both sides about whether or
not to tell a client you're using ai.
Some firms are very upfront about itand say they may use AI to analyze
the case and the various componentsand others are just using the tool
without necessarily notifying clients.
I'll be honest, I don't havea strong opinion on that one.
I could see it going either way.
That's, that definitely someof the issues I think should be
(03:39):
front of mind for a law firm.
How are you seeing the court reportingindustry adapt both to AI and to
changes in the staffing models?
Two big categories for thatone is the reporter shortage.
It's amazing how long it's goneon, and that, just, there's a lack
(04:02):
of steno, stenographic reporters.
People aren't going toschool for it anymore.
They're just not coming.
They're not graduating.
So we're leveraging AI in thatarea to help capture the record if
they're not gonna be stenographers.
Who are we gonna have goout and capture the record?
'cause the legal systemisn't gonna slow down.
So we're using AI to analyze the text andgenerate what we're calling session text.
(04:24):
It's not the real time transcriptor anything, but it is.
An ability for you tosee what's being said.
And more importantly, that helpsour, we call 'em digital reporters,
produce the final transcript.
They're gonna have the text there thatthey then review and go through it.
So capturing is a big component.
We're using ai.
And then the other side is,in working with the data.
An AI search tool is somethingwe're moving in a beta with our.
(04:48):
Clients right now so that they cango through and do better searching.
We produce AI summaries with ourtranscripts, so we use an an LLM or
a large language model to analyze thedeposition transcript and then give
a rough summary that can be used.
So it really both ends capturing.
And then once we have the data isalso, I guess technically a third
bucket of our internal processes.
(05:08):
Like we analyze depo notices to makesure the data we have in our system
is correct and things like that.
But the two main areas are, capturingthe record and then working with
the record once you have it.
How should legal teams adapt theirprocesses to accommodate this shift
in the way litigation is operating?
The first thing is to use it.
(05:29):
There's a huge amount and even ifyou're not technically using it
for a case or something like that.
I really encourage people to actually gotry it and don't just put in one question
and, say, oh, it gave me a weird answer.
Carve out an hour, twohours or several times.
'cause there was a great studythat I think I forget who did it.
But so legal journal and they sawthat attorneys who haven't used it
(05:50):
have a very different perspective onwhat the future's gonna hold versus.
Attorneys who have pe, people whohave used it feel that, clients are
gonna reduce their spending costs.
There might be stuff they can dointernally with their in-house counsel,
whereas people who weren't werelike, oh, it's gonna stay the same.
So really, I think looking at thesetools, and then once you've got.
An understanding of them.
(06:10):
Then how do you integrate 'em, and Ithink it's things like summarizing data.
I think that's one of themost useful things for legal
fields legal professionals.
I think the needle in the haystack,it's, if you put a huge amount of data,
helping find those inconsistencies thatmay be buried or even imperceptible to
humans, that's part of what AI is lookfor patterns that even humans can't find.
(06:31):
So I think that's gonna be the next step.
But the first is really.
Just try it.
Get to know what it can do, what itcan't do, and then look at how you can
kinda incorporate it in those ways.
What best practices should lawfirms implement when they're
adopting AI so that they adhere toethical and regulatory standards?
(06:52):
You need to have an AI policy foryour staff, what it can be used
for, what it can't be used for.
And I think then that goes backto, the kind of, the analysis of
it, of where's that data going?
Who has access to it?
Is it being used to train the model?
And then, really lay outwhat are the specific tools
that they're allowed to use.
Because there are.
Are many AI tools out there,some that are not based in the
(07:15):
us for instance, deeps seek.
It's a really great powerful tool, butnot based in the US and, the concerns
of storing data in foreign countries.
I think those become underregulations and, stuff like that.
So I think.
A clear policy of what tools youcan use, what data you can put
in there, which ones you can't.
And then I would say to each firm,the recommendation as to how they
(07:36):
feel about notifying clients or not.
I still working on my own opinionon that, but I think that is a big
component of what that policy should be.
How do you see litigation evolving?
The one side of it, as I see the waytestimony is captured, I think this
is something that's gonna evolve.
It's already evolving like we see withthe reporter shortage and having to turn
(07:59):
to alternative methods to capture it.
But then I think working with it, I whatI was saying earlier, I don't think AI.
We'll be like, oh, I'm using ai.
It's just, I'm using this tool.
I, my searching for transcriptshas gotten sophisticated.
It used to just be keyword searches andthen you had to know Boolean operators
and fuzzy logic and all this nonsense.
(08:20):
Now as an attorney, youcan just go in and say.
Show me areas where the witness iscontradicting themselves or tell me
about the accident that happened.
Another great one I've been using a lotin AI is give me 10 questions that I
can use at my next proceeding based onthe three transcripts I just gave you.
And it's just a reallygreat brainstorming, tool.
So I see AI tools just reallybeing woven into litigation and
(08:42):
not necessarily highlighted out asin, this is just the way we work.
And I think at the end of the day, it'sjust gonna make things more efficient.
The.
The goals are a speedy just trial.
And I think this is going to,do both of those things, it's
gonna make things a lot faster.
And then ensure justice, for all thatpeople can really go in and, find the
information they need, capture therecord they need, all that kind of stuff.
(09:06):
This is Ari Kaplan speaking with MikeMurray, the Vice President of Product
Strategy for Veritext Legal Solutions.
Mike, great to speak with you again.
Thanks so much.
Hope to be back soon.
We're working on somecool stuff, so stay tuned.
Thank you for listening to theReinventing Professionals Podcast.
Visit reinventing professionals.com orari kaplan advisors.com to learn more.
Welcome to Reinventing Professionals,a podcast hosted by industry analyst
Ari Kaplan, which shares ideas,guidance, and perspectives from market
leaders shaping the next generationof legal and professional services.
This is Ari Kaplan, and I'm speakingtoday with Mike Murray, the Vice
(00:23):
President of Product Strategyfor Veritext Legal Solutions.
Hi Mike.
How are you?
I'm great.
How are you doing?
Great to speak with you.
It's been several years andI'm looking forward to it.
Tell us about your backgroundand your role at Veritext.
I recently moved into the VP of productStrategy, so I'm in charge at Veritext
(00:45):
of the strategy behind our productsand, where we're going, new advancements
and then hearing client feedback.
I've been with Veritext for 14years, which is wild to think about.
So I've seen a lot of change in boththe legal field and reporting field.
It's.
Completely different fromwhen I started, 14 years ago.
It's pretty amazing.
So I get basically get to playwith tech all day, so I love it.
(01:07):
How is artificial intelligencetransforming litigation?
It's changing it in a bunch ofways and we see it ex, popping up
in like basically every product.
And I think you see a lot of stuff that's.
I've been saying it's asolution in search of a problem.
Some of these AI toolsare a little, extraneous.
They're put in places here's a chat botthat you know, you don't really need.
(01:29):
The ones I think are successfulare the ones that are being really
integrated into the product.
So it may not even be called ai.
It may just be a reallyuseful feature, find the
inconsistencies in this transcript.
I don't need to knowhow it's working, but.
I think those are the toolsthat are really gonna be the
ones that are successful.
But it's, it's changing the waywe, the way attorneys work, the
way their support staff works.
(01:51):
A lot of different ways.
It's impacting it.
What factors should law, lawfirms prioritize when they're
integrating AI into their practicesto ensure security and compliance?
The biggest thing is you'd wantto know where your data's going.
Is your data being usedto train the model?
Are they ingesting your data andusing it to make their model smarter?
(02:14):
The downside of that is yourconfidential or more likely your.
Client's confidential datais now in their model.
So not making sure whatever toolyou're using is not used for training.
And then just your generaltechnology considerations.
Is the data encrypted, in transit and atrest and you know who has access to it.
I think those are elements.
(02:35):
And then there's the,the, how do you use it?
This kind of thing goes abit with compliance of like,
how do you actually use it?
And the thing I alwayssay is that this is.
An assistant.
This is never meant toreplace a lawyer's expertise.
And I always even go back to the A BAmodel rules of non-lawyer assistants.
This is a non-lawyer, and you areobligated as a lawyer to review that work.
(02:56):
And that's where I see the biggest.
Issues.
And I, the bunch of 'em have been in thenews, with the fake cases, that are being
put in motions and things like that.
So I think it's, actual technology,looking at the tools and the security and
all that, as well as ensuring the teams,your actual lawyers and stuff like that.
Know how to use it, knowthe best uses for it.
(03:17):
And then I think there's also a lot of,I've heard both sides about whether or
not to tell a client you're using ai.
Some firms are very upfront about itand say they may use AI to analyze
the case and the various componentsand others are just using the tool
without necessarily notifying clients.
I'll be honest, I don't havea strong opinion on that one.
I could see it going either way.
That's, that definitely someof the issues I think should be
(03:39):
front of mind for a law firm.
How are you seeing the court reportingindustry adapt both to AI and to
changes in the staffing models?
Two big categories for thatone is the reporter shortage.
It's amazing how long it's goneon, and that, just, there's a lack
(04:02):
of steno, stenographic reporters.
People aren't going toschool for it anymore.
They're just not coming.
They're not graduating.
So we're leveraging AI in thatarea to help capture the record if
they're not gonna be stenographers.
Who are we gonna have goout and capture the record?
'cause the legal systemisn't gonna slow down.
So we're using AI to analyze the text andgenerate what we're calling session text.
(04:24):
It's not the real time transcriptor anything, but it is.
An ability for you tosee what's being said.
And more importantly, that helpsour, we call 'em digital reporters,
produce the final transcript.
They're gonna have the text there thatthey then review and go through it.
So capturing is a big component.
We're using ai.
And then the other side is,in working with the data.
An AI search tool is somethingwe're moving in a beta with our.
(04:48):
Clients right now so that they cango through and do better searching.
We produce AI summaries with ourtranscripts, so we use an an LLM or
a large language model to analyze thedeposition transcript and then give
a rough summary that can be used.
So it really both ends capturing.
And then once we have the data isalso, I guess technically a third
bucket of our internal processes.
(05:08):
Like we analyze depo notices to makesure the data we have in our system
is correct and things like that.
But the two main areas are, capturingthe record and then working with
the record once you have it.
How should legal teams adapt theirprocesses to accommodate this shift
in the way litigation is operating?
The first thing is to use it.
(05:29):
There's a huge amount and even ifyou're not technically using it
for a case or something like that.
I really encourage people to actually gotry it and don't just put in one question
and, say, oh, it gave me a weird answer.
Carve out an hour, twohours or several times.
'cause there was a great studythat I think I forget who did it.
But so legal journal and they sawthat attorneys who haven't used it
(05:50):
have a very different perspective onwhat the future's gonna hold versus.
Attorneys who have pe, people whohave used it feel that, clients are
gonna reduce their spending costs.
There might be stuff they can dointernally with their in-house counsel,
whereas people who weren't werelike, oh, it's gonna stay the same.
So really, I think looking at thesetools, and then once you've got.
An understanding of them.
(06:10):
Then how do you integrate 'em, and Ithink it's things like summarizing data.
I think that's one of themost useful things for legal
fields legal professionals.
I think the needle in the haystack,it's, if you put a huge amount of data,
helping find those inconsistencies thatmay be buried or even imperceptible to
humans, that's part of what AI is lookfor patterns that even humans can't find.
(06:31):
So I think that's gonna be the next step.
But the first is really.
Just try it.
Get to know what it can do, what itcan't do, and then look at how you can
kinda incorporate it in those ways.
What best practices should lawfirms implement when they're
adopting AI so that they adhere toethical and regulatory standards?
(06:52):
You need to have an AI policy foryour staff, what it can be used
for, what it can't be used for.
And I think then that goes backto, the kind of, the analysis of
it, of where's that data going?
Who has access to it?
Is it being used to train the model?
And then, really lay outwhat are the specific tools
that they're allowed to use.
Because there are.
Are many AI tools out there,some that are not based in the
(07:15):
us for instance, deeps seek.
It's a really great powerful tool, butnot based in the US and, the concerns
of storing data in foreign countries.
I think those become underregulations and, stuff like that.
So I think.
A clear policy of what tools youcan use, what data you can put
in there, which ones you can't.
And then I would say to each firm,the recommendation as to how they
(07:36):
feel about notifying clients or not.
I still working on my own opinionon that, but I think that is a big
component of what that policy should be.
How do you see litigation evolving?
The one side of it, as I see the waytestimony is captured, I think this
is something that's gonna evolve.
It's already evolving like we see withthe reporter shortage and having to turn
(07:59):
to alternative methods to capture it.
But then I think working with it, I whatI was saying earlier, I don't think AI.
We'll be like, oh, I'm using ai.
It's just, I'm using this tool.
I, my searching for transcriptshas gotten sophisticated.
It used to just be keyword searches andthen you had to know Boolean operators
and fuzzy logic and all this nonsense.
(08:20):
Now as an attorney, youcan just go in and say.
Show me areas where the witness iscontradicting themselves or tell me
about the accident that happened.
Another great one I've been using a lotin AI is give me 10 questions that I
can use at my next proceeding based onthe three transcripts I just gave you.
And it's just a reallygreat brainstorming, tool.
So I see AI tools just reallybeing woven into litigation and
(08:42):
not necessarily highlighted out asin, this is just the way we work.
And I think at the end of the day, it'sjust gonna make things more efficient.
The.
The goals are a speedy just trial.
And I think this is going to,do both of those things, it's
gonna make things a lot faster.
And then ensure justice, for all thatpeople can really go in and, find the
information they need, capture therecord they need, all that kind of stuff.
(09:06):
This is Ari Kaplan speaking with MikeMurray, the Vice President of Product
Strategy for Veritext Legal Solutions.
Mike, great to speak with you again.
Thanks so much.
Hope to be back soon.
We're working on somecool stuff, so stay tuned.
Thank you for listening to theReinventing Professionals Podcast.
Visit reinventing professionals.com orari kaplan advisors.com to learn more.
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