May 28, 2025 • 11 mins
I spoke with Rick Campbell, the Executive Chairman and CEO of @GROUP, and Matt Winlaw, the CEO and Managing Director of @ID, one of three divisions that includes @DOCS and @SOFT, within @GROUP. We discussed open-source intelligence, why OSINT has become vital to modern legal operations, the blind spots in traditional legal risk models, predictive behavioral AI use cases, and practical ways for legal teams to integrate AI and OSINT without overwhelming their workflows.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
This is Ari Kaplan and I'm speakingtoday with Rick Campbell, the executive
chairman and CEO of AT group, and MattWinlow, the CEO and managing director
of at id one of three divisions.
That includes at Docs andat Soft within at Group.
Rick.
Matt, great to see you.
(00:23):
Thanks, Ari.
Great to be with you today.
It's my privilege.
Rick, tell us about your backgroundand the genesis of AT Group.
Ad group evolved out of what wasoriginally Campbell and Partners
Consulting which was an organizationreally had its cornerstone within
the legal industry providing documentmanagement solutions that then
(00:43):
evolved into our clients reallyembracing our vendor independent
approach to to meet their needs andsit on their side of the fences.
They then started approaching us to lookinto the provision of additional services.
So we've just then found that as thoseservices evolved into cybersecurity, to
also then encompass requirements aroundspecific bespoke software provisions.
(01:04):
So hence you have that id at Softand at Docs, which essentially took
over the role of Campbell Partners,and they all come under the,
matt, tell us about yourbackground and your role with a id.
Thanks Ari.
My role within ADID is essentially we've,for the last few years, brought together
some of the world's leading tech on pointsolutions or collaborated solutions to
(01:26):
support firms across many industriesaround insider threat, external threat.
It's been very successfuland exciting journey.
Rick, how do you see corporatelegal departments and professional
services firms evolving in 2025?
The nature of risk now more than ever isso multifaceted and continually evolving.
(01:48):
Ari and risk manifests itselfin a multitude of ways for legal
departments and professionalservices firms, in various guises,
including reputational cyber.
And its numerous iterations.
You've got external threat and insiderthreat, as Matt alluded to, but
you've also got peer based competitionfrom technologies being embraced by.
Other firms and internal legaldepartments within organizations.
(02:10):
With that group, having a long historyof global and local engagements with
a multitude of firms from your law 100and beyond, as well as businesses from
various other industries, which providesus with a deep understanding of some of
the challenges associated, not only withthe business of law but business more
generally and what we see as a constant.
There's the firms who proactively embraceand engage with a well-planned AI-based
(02:33):
technology strategy or blueprint, a bestplace to mitigate these evolving risks.
Interestingly, AI presents its own notinsignificant risk to legal departments
and professional services firms, not onlyin the way it's utilized by bad actors.
But from an enterprise's perspective,you really have to consider what does the
legal landscape look like in the comingyears or decades, and whether the ranks
(02:55):
of human lawyers will, in large part,be depleted or even possibly replaced to
some degree by behavioral AI platforms.
Matt, what is open sourceintelligence and why has it become
vital to modern legal operations?
Open Source Intelligence, or O since,as it's known, it's about using
(03:15):
publicly available information tosupport legal strategy, manage risk,
and perform enhanced due diligence.
First we look at litigationsupport o since helping legal teams
fact check claims using thingslike social media, news stories.
Public records, corporateregistries, you name it.
Anything you can think of thatyou wanna find that's publicly
available, oy can track that for you.
(03:38):
Next step.
You can look at client duediligence and compliance.
When firms are looking to take onnew clients or evaluate mergers
or acquisitions, oy can uncoverred flags, reputational risks,
conflicts of interest or sanctions.
That's a powerful way toperform deep background checks
without stepping outside.
Legal boundaries and by extension,intellectual property and brand
(03:59):
protection, key roles in cybersecurityand internal investigations, and
that wonderful world of discover andevidence gathering, can help and collect
and preserve online content legally,sometimes even reconstructing timelines
of events based on digital footprint.
Rick, what are some blind spots intraditional legal risk models and
how are law firms avoiding them?
(04:22):
Each individual firm office.
Employee they certainly havepoints of continuity, but also firm
specific and geographically culturalidiosyncra and understanding.
Evolve with their risk profileconsidering all major threats
including DeepFakes identity theftand its multitude of iterations.
(04:44):
AI based cyber attacks, and theever emerging constant of internal
threat as Matt alluded to and theseconstitute, but just a few of the
blind spots that firms may not befully cognizant of all planning for.
So maintaining continuity in how afirm addresses these challenges, such
as ensuring a proactive and offensiveapproach to mitigating risk as opposed
to being purely reactive and defensive asit relates to the development and ongoing
(05:09):
maintenance of a firm's risk posture.
It's really vital to maintain pace.
And possibly with a view to staying aheadof the competition in, such a commercially
competitive environment, as we say withinOutgroup and specifically within AD id.
When it comes to mitigatingrisk, it's always better to be on
the front foot and be proactivethan end up on the front page.
(05:30):
Matt, what are some predictivebehavioral AI use cases helping legal
teams respond more effectively to risk?
Some people think that behavioralAI or predictive behavioral AI is
somewhere around a sci-fi movie.
It's not.
It's reality today and it's alreadyshaping how legal teams manage risk.
It's that key shift of movingfrom reactive to proactive.
(05:54):
We're now able to identify early signswhether that from being inside an
organization or from external sources,and that might be client risk profiling.
Looking at public behaviors, likeonline comments, social media activity,
or overall industry sentiment.
AI can service early reputational orcompliance concerns tied to a client.
Or insider threat detection, predictivemodels that can detect unusual patterns,
(06:17):
like increased access to sensitivedata that might point to a disgruntled
employee or a potential breach.
The big one, that we focus on heavilyand what we spend a lot of our time with
predictive piece is external threats.
We sometimes call thisthe weather forecast.
It's about spotting the signals ofemerging external threats so teams can
predict block and stay ahead of thatmalicious campaigns before they hit.
(06:42):
Rick, what are some practical waysthat legal teams can integrate AI
and open source intelligence withoutoverwhelming their workflows?
As we know when it comes to overwhelminglegal departments and their technology
teams in particular are quite oftenthere's an awful lot expected of them
and more and more on a daily basis andquite often with a, not a significant
(07:03):
increase in resources and hence, leaninginto technologies and force multiplier
type technologies becomes more and moreimportant for legal departments and.
All AI based platformsby the very nature oc.
And so tools are constantly evolving.
Ari, the main point of differentiationin our experience is the depths
of data sets that they utilize inthe subsequent, realtime nature
(07:25):
of the source data available.
Meaning is it live or is this a casewith some platforms, days, or weeks old?
So it's really important for firmsto understand the power and applied
functionality of Osint so as tospecifically determine what it is
they actually wish to achieve, andacross which social media platforms
and all the surface deep or dark web.
And our platform provides amultitude of options for enhanced
(07:47):
due diligence that can be applied toall manner of applications, including
an, and Matt alluded to a few ofthem but in no way limited to MA
transactions discovery investigations.
Insurance and importantly KYC andKYE for the vetting of clients and or
employees, and that's just to name a few.
The applications are essentiallylimitless, so having a defined
(08:08):
plan as to how to utilize those byunderstanding applications is very
important for firms to embrace.
Matt, what advice would you give tolegal professionals or operations
leaders just beginning to explore theintersection of AI and risk management?
Don't be scared, don't be concerned.
(08:28):
When we speak to folks, typically they'reeither a go white or take a deep breath.
Because, it's a fast changing andcomplex environment, but I think it's
a significant opportunity as well.
And that's the key that when we'reworking with folks, consulting with
folks, is there's a real opportunityhere for those that navigate it and
they can position themselves to growth.
And long term success.
From our perspective, firms are able toembrace and effectively use technology
(08:52):
like AI and open source intelligence.
They'll be a much strongerposition long term, sure.
It's not just about tech.
There's also staying ahead ofregulatory changes and adapting
to evolving client expectations.
Which has been quite interestingfor us around, feedback we're
receiving around client expectations.
We're seeing a noticeablegenerational shift, right?
More and more we're hearing the clients,both existing and potential aren't
(09:15):
just on focus, aren't just focused onfinding the right people to help them.
They also wanna know whatkind of technology firms
are using to drive results.
And that's been a big shift for us withthe feedback we're getting from firms.
Rick, what advice would you share withprofessionals and leaders that are
beginning to explore this intersection?
(09:36):
I.
It is a interesting journey for thoseorganizations that are really just looking
to step off, and it's an interestingjourney that lays ahead of them.
As we used to say in the military,time well spent reconnaissance
is time very well spent.
So my primary advice would be to doyour homework as Matt alluded to.
And not to be concerned aboutwhat's in front of you because
it can be quite overwhelming.
Engaging with industry peers,seeking specialist advice and I
(09:59):
guess where possible collaborate withdiscussion groups to gain a thorough
understanding of the technologyavailable and their associated future
roadmaps to assist, I should say,with meeting your desired outcomes.
Conversely, this process should alsoprovide you with an opportunity to
understand how others are currentlyutilizing or planning to utilize AI and
the technology to better manage theirrisk profile, which may also assist, in
(10:23):
how you apply the available tools to bestmeet your requirements as they evolve.
And that's probably the main thing.
With AI based platforms asthey're continually evolving.
So again, it can be somewhatoverwhelming trying to stay on top of
the technology, but that's why leaninginto industry based peers and support
groups can certainly assist with that.
This is Ari Kaplan speaking withRick Campbell, the executive chairman
(10:46):
and CEO of AT group and Matt Winlow,the CEO and managing director
of at id one of three divisions.
That includes at Docs andat Soft within at Group.
Rick, Matt, it's really been a privilege.
Great.
Thanks.
A.
This is Ari Kaplan and I'm speakingtoday with Rick Campbell, the executive
chairman and CEO of AT group, and MattWinlow, the CEO and managing director
of at id one of three divisions.
That includes at Docs andat Soft within at Group.
Rick.
Matt, great to see you.
(00:23):
Thanks, Ari.
Great to be with you today.
It's my privilege.
Rick, tell us about your backgroundand the genesis of AT Group.
Ad group evolved out of what wasoriginally Campbell and Partners
Consulting which was an organizationreally had its cornerstone within
the legal industry providing documentmanagement solutions that then
(00:43):
evolved into our clients reallyembracing our vendor independent
approach to to meet their needs andsit on their side of the fences.
They then started approaching us to lookinto the provision of additional services.
So we've just then found that as thoseservices evolved into cybersecurity, to
also then encompass requirements aroundspecific bespoke software provisions.
(01:04):
So hence you have that id at Softand at Docs, which essentially took
over the role of Campbell Partners,and they all come under the,
matt, tell us about yourbackground and your role with a id.
Thanks Ari.
My role within ADID is essentially we've,for the last few years, brought together
some of the world's leading tech on pointsolutions or collaborated solutions to
(01:26):
support firms across many industriesaround insider threat, external threat.
It's been very successfuland exciting journey.
Rick, how do you see corporatelegal departments and professional
services firms evolving in 2025?
The nature of risk now more than ever isso multifaceted and continually evolving.
(01:48):
Ari and risk manifests itselfin a multitude of ways for legal
departments and professionalservices firms, in various guises,
including reputational cyber.
And its numerous iterations.
You've got external threat and insiderthreat, as Matt alluded to, but
you've also got peer based competitionfrom technologies being embraced by.
Other firms and internal legaldepartments within organizations.
(02:10):
With that group, having a long historyof global and local engagements with
a multitude of firms from your law 100and beyond, as well as businesses from
various other industries, which providesus with a deep understanding of some of
the challenges associated, not only withthe business of law but business more
generally and what we see as a constant.
There's the firms who proactively embraceand engage with a well-planned AI-based
(02:33):
technology strategy or blueprint, a bestplace to mitigate these evolving risks.
Interestingly, AI presents its own notinsignificant risk to legal departments
and professional services firms, not onlyin the way it's utilized by bad actors.
But from an enterprise's perspective,you really have to consider what does the
legal landscape look like in the comingyears or decades, and whether the ranks
(02:55):
of human lawyers will, in large part,be depleted or even possibly replaced to
some degree by behavioral AI platforms.
Matt, what is open sourceintelligence and why has it become
vital to modern legal operations?
Open Source Intelligence, or O since,as it's known, it's about using
(03:15):
publicly available information tosupport legal strategy, manage risk,
and perform enhanced due diligence.
First we look at litigationsupport o since helping legal teams
fact check claims using thingslike social media, news stories.
Public records, corporateregistries, you name it.
Anything you can think of thatyou wanna find that's publicly
available, oy can track that for you.
(03:38):
Next step.
You can look at client duediligence and compliance.
When firms are looking to take onnew clients or evaluate mergers
or acquisitions, oy can uncoverred flags, reputational risks,
conflicts of interest or sanctions.
That's a powerful way toperform deep background checks
without stepping outside.
Legal boundaries and by extension,intellectual property and brand
(03:59):
protection, key roles in cybersecurityand internal investigations, and
that wonderful world of discover andevidence gathering, can help and collect
and preserve online content legally,sometimes even reconstructing timelines
of events based on digital footprint.
Rick, what are some blind spots intraditional legal risk models and
how are law firms avoiding them?
(04:22):
Each individual firm office.
Employee they certainly havepoints of continuity, but also firm
specific and geographically culturalidiosyncra and understanding.
Evolve with their risk profileconsidering all major threats
including DeepFakes identity theftand its multitude of iterations.
(04:44):
AI based cyber attacks, and theever emerging constant of internal
threat as Matt alluded to and theseconstitute, but just a few of the
blind spots that firms may not befully cognizant of all planning for.
So maintaining continuity in how afirm addresses these challenges, such
as ensuring a proactive and offensiveapproach to mitigating risk as opposed
to being purely reactive and defensive asit relates to the development and ongoing
(05:09):
maintenance of a firm's risk posture.
It's really vital to maintain pace.
And possibly with a view to staying aheadof the competition in, such a commercially
competitive environment, as we say withinOutgroup and specifically within AD id.
When it comes to mitigatingrisk, it's always better to be on
the front foot and be proactivethan end up on the front page.
(05:30):
Matt, what are some predictivebehavioral AI use cases helping legal
teams respond more effectively to risk?
Some people think that behavioralAI or predictive behavioral AI is
somewhere around a sci-fi movie.
It's not.
It's reality today and it's alreadyshaping how legal teams manage risk.
It's that key shift of movingfrom reactive to proactive.
(05:54):
We're now able to identify early signswhether that from being inside an
organization or from external sources,and that might be client risk profiling.
Looking at public behaviors, likeonline comments, social media activity,
or overall industry sentiment.
AI can service early reputational orcompliance concerns tied to a client.
Or insider threat detection, predictivemodels that can detect unusual patterns,
(06:17):
like increased access to sensitivedata that might point to a disgruntled
employee or a potential breach.
The big one, that we focus on heavilyand what we spend a lot of our time with
predictive piece is external threats.
We sometimes call thisthe weather forecast.
It's about spotting the signals ofemerging external threats so teams can
predict block and stay ahead of thatmalicious campaigns before they hit.
(06:42):
Rick, what are some practical waysthat legal teams can integrate AI
and open source intelligence withoutoverwhelming their workflows?
As we know when it comes to overwhelminglegal departments and their technology
teams in particular are quite oftenthere's an awful lot expected of them
and more and more on a daily basis andquite often with a, not a significant
(07:03):
increase in resources and hence, leaninginto technologies and force multiplier
type technologies becomes more and moreimportant for legal departments and.
All AI based platformsby the very nature oc.
And so tools are constantly evolving.
Ari, the main point of differentiationin our experience is the depths
of data sets that they utilize inthe subsequent, realtime nature
(07:25):
of the source data available.
Meaning is it live or is this a casewith some platforms, days, or weeks old?
So it's really important for firmsto understand the power and applied
functionality of Osint so as tospecifically determine what it is
they actually wish to achieve, andacross which social media platforms
and all the surface deep or dark web.
And our platform provides amultitude of options for enhanced
(07:47):
due diligence that can be applied toall manner of applications, including
an, and Matt alluded to a few ofthem but in no way limited to MA
transactions discovery investigations.
Insurance and importantly KYC andKYE for the vetting of clients and or
employees, and that's just to name a few.
The applications are essentiallylimitless, so having a defined
(08:08):
plan as to how to utilize those byunderstanding applications is very
important for firms to embrace.
Matt, what advice would you give tolegal professionals or operations
leaders just beginning to explore theintersection of AI and risk management?
Don't be scared, don't be concerned.
(08:28):
When we speak to folks, typically they'reeither a go white or take a deep breath.
Because, it's a fast changing andcomplex environment, but I think it's
a significant opportunity as well.
And that's the key that when we'reworking with folks, consulting with
folks, is there's a real opportunityhere for those that navigate it and
they can position themselves to growth.
And long term success.
From our perspective, firms are able toembrace and effectively use technology
(08:52):
like AI and open source intelligence.
They'll be a much strongerposition long term, sure.
It's not just about tech.
There's also staying ahead ofregulatory changes and adapting
to evolving client expectations.
Which has been quite interestingfor us around, feedback we're
receiving around client expectations.
We're seeing a noticeablegenerational shift, right?
More and more we're hearing the clients,both existing and potential aren't
(09:15):
just on focus, aren't just focused onfinding the right people to help them.
They also wanna know whatkind of technology firms
are using to drive results.
And that's been a big shift for us withthe feedback we're getting from firms.
Rick, what advice would you share withprofessionals and leaders that are
beginning to explore this intersection?
(09:36):
I.
It is a interesting journey for thoseorganizations that are really just looking
to step off, and it's an interestingjourney that lays ahead of them.
As we used to say in the military,time well spent reconnaissance
is time very well spent.
So my primary advice would be to doyour homework as Matt alluded to.
And not to be concerned aboutwhat's in front of you because
it can be quite overwhelming.
Engaging with industry peers,seeking specialist advice and I
(09:59):
guess where possible collaborate withdiscussion groups to gain a thorough
understanding of the technologyavailable and their associated future
roadmaps to assist, I should say,with meeting your desired outcomes.
Conversely, this process should alsoprovide you with an opportunity to
understand how others are currentlyutilizing or planning to utilize AI and
the technology to better manage theirrisk profile, which may also assist, in
(10:23):
how you apply the available tools to bestmeet your requirements as they evolve.
And that's probably the main thing.
With AI based platforms asthey're continually evolving.
So again, it can be somewhatoverwhelming trying to stay on top of
the technology, but that's why leaninginto industry based peers and support
groups can certainly assist with that.
This is Ari Kaplan speaking withRick Campbell, the executive chairman
(10:46):
and CEO of AT group and Matt Winlow,the CEO and managing director
of at id one of three divisions.
That includes at Docs andat Soft within at Group.
Rick, Matt, it's really been a privilege.
Great.
Thanks.
A.
Popular Podcasts
True Crime Tonight
If you eat, sleep, and breathe true crime, TRUE CRIME TONIGHT is serving up your nightly fix. Five nights a week, KT STUDIOS & iHEART RADIO invite listeners to pull up a seat for an unfiltered look at the biggest cases making headlines, celebrity scandals, and the trials everyone is watching. With a mix of expert analysis, hot takes, and listener call-ins, TRUE CRIME TONIGHT goes beyond the headlines to uncover the twists, turns, and unanswered questions that keep us all obsessed—because, at TRUE CRIME TONIGHT, there’s a seat for everyone. Whether breaking down crime scene forensics, scrutinizing serial killers, or debating the most binge-worthy true crime docs, True Crime Tonight is the fresh, fast-paced, and slightly addictive home for true crime lovers.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.