In this 40th episode of Charting Change in Legal, Caroline Hill, Editor and Publisher of Legal IT Insider, and I discussed bringing back boring, legal operations trends, and embracing automation.
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(00:00):
Welcome to charting Change in Legal. I'm one of your hosts, Carolyn Hill, editor and chief of Legal
(00:07):
IT Insider, and I'm joined by my esteemed co-host.
Ari Kaplan. I'm an analyst who covers Legal and Carol, it's wonderful to see you.
Wonderful to see you too. How are you? What's going on?
I'm well and excited about having a conversation about non-generative AI topics
(00:28):
that I am certain will bring us right back to what we have been talking about,
what the legal industry has been talking about, and it's journey to chart change.
Well, I want to come back to that because there's some backlash, there's always going to be
backlash in our...
The backlash, that's our topic today, yeah.
But so there's always going to be different stages of the hype cycle, but there's a lot of backlash right now
(00:54):
against Jenny AI and what's perceived to be some sort of nonsense being written, but first,
sorry, I wanted to dive into you all doing a session at Ilter Evolve.
You've got a panel, I just wondered if you could share what you're talking about.
I'm not going to be going for the first time and have been asked to moderate a panel discussion
(01:18):
with several law firm leaders about practical ways that they are implementing generative AI.
So that's really what the discussion is.
The conference is in its defense, the conference is focused on AI and security.
So the one interesting thing that you can take away that isn't necessarily a generative AI principle
(01:40):
is that there is a very strong connection between security and emerging tools.
So we have been talking about this on the virtual lunch for the last couple of months, but if your firms security posture is weak
and your protocols and procedures are insufficient, you have much bigger fish to fry than whether or not you're going to have some tool
(02:03):
create a letter for you.
Your data will be at risk and people will not trust that you're now targeting this tool on all of your data
because you don't know what the safety level is.
And so I think it's going to be a really interesting conversation.
I'm looking to learn from a lot of the participants on the other sessions that are focused on cybersecurity
(02:26):
and just better information governance in an effort to push some of the emerging tools forward.
And I think that's one of the things that seems very good about this event, which I've never been to.
So your session is more focused on the cyber use cases or the use cases of generative AI
(02:47):
because this is the right.
Yeah, yeah, no, I think people really want to hear.
And the other thing is I think that the firms who are participating in this particular panel aren't talking as much about what they're doing
and they're doing some really interesting stuff. So I think you're going to hear some new voices and new ideas and the idea of adding to the suite of options that you have for this particular technology will be good.
(03:16):
I think it's going to really expand and contribute to the conversation.
It won't be talk.
It'll be a lot of let's kind of regroup and go over the actions that we've taken for the benefit of our community.
And I think that's really funny. You know, you mentioned this idea, this backlash.
And I just want to address that years ago, there was a campaign called bring back boring.
(03:41):
And it was yes, yes.
So this reminds me of that.
And it's just this idea of, look, let's just focus on what we need to focus on.
You think that this thing could launch some other tool and make that go somewhere.
But really all you need to do is put a chart together. So let's just focus on what's going to help you practice law the best way possible as opposed to impress me with all the different colors you can do it in.
(04:08):
You know, and I think it was a really interesting conversation led by a bunch of folks who have smartly developed and championed moving the ball forward as opposed to creating a new kind of ball or something.
And I think that's a really fun, fun discussion, which I respect.
So it's so funny. So a use cases, I think is absolutely the right way to go, you know, talking about real life applications.
(04:34):
And I think that the bring back boring campaign was all about almost like AI, AI mark one when we were three years ago when everybody was talking about AI and some very smart people.
So Alex Smith, I manage and I think probably Steven Allen who's now a client, and a ton of others were at this hashtag bring back boring because there was a lot of puff and talking about AI for the sake of AI.
(05:01):
And that's when Alex started to go to my I a not AI.
But so I think I'm seeing parallels now and actually those same voices, I don't know about Alex, but certainly Steven is a sort of railing against.
And that's what I was talking about when we first came on air, which is this talking about Gen.A.I for everything you just alluded to it.
(05:25):
Do you do need it for this particular task or are you just sort of talking about it for the sake of talking about it? Right. Is it is this a Gen.A.I thing and do you have your ducks in a row and all of the things that we always talk about.
But you know, why are we why are you talking about it? How are you using it? And let's just not think that Gen.A.I is the answer to everything because it's not so just so I'm doing a webinar with Steven and also Lexus Nexus in in a little while.
(05:54):
And they're talking about some of the automation work that they're doing. And Steven will say, you know, this is not a case for for Gen.A.I.
And they're actually going back to your security point that people will get into really big trouble if they haven't got their ducks in a row, which many of them still have not.
(06:17):
Your point about automation over Gen.A.I. is an interesting one because it's a clear trend where organizations and every organization is or should be having this conversation about what is this will it work for us? Where does it fit into our workflow? And often they will have that epiphany that wait, it isn't generative.
(06:38):
And we need it's document automation or some other kind of automation. And that makes a lot of sense. The other thing I'm seeing now is not just should we use it. What would we do with it? It's also where does it fit?
So when people are evaluating it, lots of good things are happening. They're asking, what is our data hygiene look like? So where's the security aspect that we need to focus on?
(07:02):
And automation and not generative AI? And also, where does it fit? And only after you evaluate your workflow and how good it is or where the flaws are? Can you decide, well, we have a hole. This could fit that and solve a problem that we didn't realize we had or that we have just been dealing with.
And so that question, not only should we use it, how do we use it, but where does it fit? Is increasingly compelling and helpful to a lot of organizations?
(07:29):
Yeah, absolutely. And just in case of do the hard work, you know, like we've been saying this for a long time and it feels to sometimes it feels like we're further ahead than we really are.
But you know, talking to lots of firms and I know talking to lots of firms that there's so a lot of hard work to be done, you know, like so, so for example, you know, moving various law firms are just a massive disparate data sources.
(07:54):
And that's still the case, no, like the webinar that I'm doing is focusing on case management. And they've moved 15 different systems into one, right, so that they can start to really make sense of the data and they can start to do some really clever stuff in terms of the M I they produced, you know, but but currently it's like a law fund that have particularly ones have grown through acquisition, because all the data and et cetera.
(08:21):
There's still facing some serious underlying issues in terms of having their data all over the place.
Yeah, it is clearly that is clearly an issue, but you have a lot of smart people who are trying to figure this out in law firms and you're also seeing a lot more senior leaders participating in that conversation more by and more championing and also more willingness to
(08:50):
fail, you know, just to like accept a misstep to just realize, well, is there a way that we can do is what firms are, I mean, they're logical and this is an environment now where, you know, the economy is starting to
create softening signs. I don't know exactly how you describe it because it's constantly shifting, but you know, you get the sense that firms are making decisions, but trying to make calculated decisions that are going to allow it to grow and move forward, but maybe do so in a way that is measured and less extravagant.
(09:31):
And so I think that's something that we should all be considering.
And just, but it's interesting just and just culturally we've took for a lot of time about, you know, cult changes of culture. What's interesting, what I'm seeing is in some cases.
Yeah, the leadership of getting on board, there's massive changes going on, but also what's quite funny is there's, take for example, going back to Mike's on for a case management, which is culturally unacceptable for a lot of very high level work.
(10:03):
So in some, in some, in some sense, they're changing, they may have something that is case management, but that has been adapted and they call it something different because just to make these things a little bit more culturally acceptable to people.
So it's kind of funny, you know, there's still this, there's still that like cultural wrangling going on, you know, like how do we move forward as an organization, but accepting, you know, there are certain for lawyers, you know,
(10:32):
there are certain limitations in, you know, how much they want to be seen to be doing streamlined work, you know, I mean, there's still like they want to be doing the very special stuff.
Well, yes, yes, but they're, they're, they're starting, you know, they're increasingly having the people who have to make those decisions and have to run that the, the data scientists of the project management leaders of the IT leaders, you know, they get their seat at the table so that they can.
(10:59):
At least say, look, you don't want to do this, I get it, but it has to be done and someone needs to lead it and we do need you to support at least whoever's leading it and the conversation you're right, the conversation is an interesting one and one that I think we're, we're all sort of having and, you know, in many of my discussions,
(11:20):
you know, you and I are both lucky to facilitate conversations that allow people to learn from one another and allow people to sort of understand where they're falling behind and where they could adopt some practice of their peers that are going to be more effective.
And there are more of those discussions happening, which is, I think, helpful. We're probably at a natural place in this evolution of how our field is using this technology.
(11:44):
It started out with wonder and then it went into some reality and now people are touching it on a regular basis and saying, you know, we, it's very good here.
It's, it's not great there. And also, what are the other challenges? So if we go back to this non-generative AI conversation, whenever I ask people, what's driving change in legal?
(12:13):
That's not gendered of AI. Is there something you can tell me? And things come up, you know, there's a generational shift happening in the profession and that generational shift, but then it always comes back to, well, because the newer generation will be more willing to adopt these, the older generation is not as well again.
And so it ends up coming back to technology anyway and then we talk about processes. Well, firms are re-evaluating or they're, they're clients are re-evaluating or it would be great if they could work together or the billing structure is changing.
(12:44):
So there are issues yet they all seem to come back to, well, the billing structure is changing because you can do things faster more efficiently with some generative tool or you can track your time better with some kind of AI tools.
So it's hard to actually to extract it from a conversation because it's, it's prompting many of these discussions, even if it's itself is not being the topic of those discussions.
(13:10):
And also, we, you and I, we quite often focus on large law, right? So naturally, you know, I have the cup, no doubt the firms are on your panel will be from, from my expects large law firms.
Not, not, not super large, actually, and over the years I have done research, I had my annual law firm report is focused on the midsize law firms, even a close smaller.
(13:36):
And I think one of the reasons that is important and that people should realize is important is because all of these new tools and streamlining your processes gives an organization the ability to level up, right there.
They can scale much more effectively with this technology. Imagine if you had agents who could expand your team in a digital way, all of a sudden it changes why someone would work with you and that conversation about billing or rates or discussions with outside counsel is happening because more organizations that would have worked with only a certain group of firms that they felt could support.
(14:19):
Their dockets are realizing, you know what, we can go to a firm that is more regional or smaller because they have the capability to scale to support us and they obviously have talented professionals, maybe one of them has moved there.
And so it's an interesting dynamic that's occurring, so you bring up a good point.
(14:40):
God, so many things pop up, so I've seen some really super exciting stuff recently in terms of a smaller organization leveraging a platform, not necessarily AI.
Again, going back to this point, it really, really making sure that their data is absolutely locked down in one place is completely integrated and using a lot going back to this recurring theme.
(15:10):
And I'm thinking of, I mentioned them a lot, but I've got something coming up that I'm writing about them for, so radient law, you know, they've got some new stuff that they're building and they work with some huge financial institutions, you know.
And I mean, they're not tiny, but they're not a huge law firm, but they have nailed down, you know, their processes and their workflow and they've built tools that mean that everything is standardized, right? That is the absolute key.
(15:35):
So that's interesting, but then what I was coming on to say about, I tend to be guilty of focusing too much, maybe on large law.
But more recently, I'm doing some work with around the mid market and smaller firms. You were kind enough to promote some of this work I'm doing on LinkedIn, I'm having a dinner talking to the senior leaders of mid market and small firms.
(16:03):
And it's based on that conversation will be somewhat based on some research that a company called Action Stepped it, which was a great report around the priorities now of mid market and small law firms.
And it'd be interesting to hear how this fits in with your learnings from your report, particularly where there is a jurisdictional difference, but their priorities largely were around talent retention.
(16:32):
And concerned about how to keep people and it they didn't seem to make the connection with technology, which was kind of fascinating and technology did not appear to be a massive priority for them, which was really fascinating.
There was obviously a proportion of a percentage that it was a priority for they talked about in the report about transformation, how important it was.
(16:57):
How you word these questions sometimes it would be interesting when we have a dinner to find out what their views are. But technology and transformation will not high up on the list talent retention was and the two, the indencing to me, much connection between the two, which I found fascinating.
Well, the conversation about talent retention is an interesting one because it's often about satisfaction and the work and being able to focus and having the time to have your cake and eat it too.
(17:25):
And I have always come to, you know, I've come to realize that the people who are satisfied, they are most people in legal.
And I would say at a certain size organization, they compete for the same kind of people, so they're paying a fairly level rate, right?
(17:46):
Law firms, you know, ascribed to a lock step. So if I I worked at a firm, I practiced for nearly nine years, I basically made what my colleague down the street made if we were the same kind of firm.
Maybe something similar, I think that the challenges of retention are often related to satisfaction of the work, the balance of the work. I mean, recently I was working on some projects. I loved the sort of the ability to simply focus.
(18:12):
And for them and for a lot of us, the idea of having a piece of technology or an administrative assistant helping doing something simultaneously while you're able to like really just need deep into the work, I think that is very satisfying.
So you think, wow, I didn't have to do any of that administrative stuff or any of the stuff, even if it wasn't administrative organize or analyze and summarize.
(18:39):
I feel like a blind doing Nick's commentary, you know, analyze and summarize digitize.
He's always moving in Groove and I guess it's a next playoff so I couldn't I couldn't help myself. My wife is a huge next man every time. Clyde is like moving in Groove and slicing and dicing.
(19:02):
And I'm always like, I love watching her laugh. She just like gets such a kick out of his commentary. So then I just feel like, look at me on the AI clients, like that, summarizing digitizing.
We're available for hard. I'm going to do a commentary. I'll, Ari, next stop, Ilta Evolve, Commissary Audit, implementing generative AI.
(19:26):
And there it is. I'm coming to Carolina just on the page.
Just for the final. That's right. I haven't actually organized a run. So I'm just thinking I actually told one of my panelists, if you want to run, I'll run with you.
So I have to kind of do that. I'll have to send something out today. Anybody feel like running anyway is anybody going to run?
(19:47):
And so we'll see what anyway. I think that I think that that's interesting. I'm excited to hear what you have to say and what you learn in that discussion.
And you know, I've seen that that mid market report for several years now. And it's well done high quality research. And we even we even talked about it on the virtual lunch a few years ago.
(20:09):
So it's interesting to see what's happening. And when I was at the association of legal administrators conference last year, I mentioned this point in one of the conclusions that I drew from my research was that the competitive landscape will begin to shift.
Firms will have to figure out how to change their structures from a billing standpoint. I'm in no way saying the bill blowers that I'm just saying that some projects maybe more projects will now lend themselves to a different structure.
(20:40):
And that may give an opportunity for disruption from smaller less familiar or more regional organizations with an equivalent level of talent and a really strong technology support structure.
If they get themselves together like and if they'll if so you can't generalize, but I feel that what it could what it can also do is it can enable big firms to start reaching further down, you know, the ones that the most tech savvy that I think that we we always assume that small firms there is a massive opportunity for them to play out right to to leverage technology to.
(21:22):
But there's also a big opportunity for firms to reach further down down to like if it doesn't cost more and if they can just do it as efficiently and they can use technology to sort of bodies, you know, and they can actually start to productize stuff and you know they do all kinds of opportunities if you've got people with tech savvy if it's worth their while financially, you know, obviously it depends.
(21:43):
But I feel like the moment is interesting, we perhaps we need, you know, I personally maybe need to do more as you said, be fascinating to hear what they've got to set this dinner and I'll feed that back to you.
But I feel like I'm not seeing right now the momentum from the mid market in terms of really capturing this opportunity and that may be just because we haven't spoken to the right people.
(22:09):
But actually, I haven't seen anything that shows that that is what's happening right now.
Yeah, no, I every time someone identifies an advantage like the advantage of them mid market firms to play up, they have to acknowledge that not only is there an advantage of somebody else to see that maybe a smaller firm and push into their market, but also for someone to maybe push down.
(22:38):
And that could result in some consolidation.
And you know, so you'll see I think I think the other thing that those organizations, the law firms especially have to realize is that as this technology becomes more user friendly and more deeply embedded that they have to identify what work they could consider losing.
(23:04):
And not that they will lose it, but they should anticipate that some of the work is likely to go away because it will not be necessary.
The clients themselves will have sufficient tools to do some of the work.
And I think that you'd have to acknowledge that.
I'm not suggesting that the sophistication of what lawyers do is in jeopardy, but it's sort of a chipping away process and they need to.
(23:33):
Understand that and in fact get ahead of it. So one of the things I'm going to be speaking at clock and I'm doing some research now and anticipation of that.
And one of the things that law firms can really gain an advantage with is to proactively collaborate and understand and share what they've learned with their clients because no matter how large that company is, they're not focusing in the same way just on the law department as a law firm.
(24:00):
Right, their whole business is legal. And so they've learned things and applied things across an entire array of matters and organizations that could be really helpful to their clients.
And the firms that do that are really gaining an advantage in partnering and so they will anticipate what could happen and try to bypass it by being so proactive.
(24:27):
Yeah, well, I can't wait. I mean, that's the next thing isn't it? So you can't wait to hear about how the ultra evolved goes and what the key perhaps we can talk about some of the use cases and then when we get to that, that's going to be fascinating.
So so I look forward to you feeding back as well. You know, what some of the conclusions from the research.
Yeah, and between our between our various dinners and sort of no, I mean, I think that I think that the one thing one of the things that I love about what we get to do is that.
(24:56):
We get to have these conversations at a macro level facilitate a conversation with a group of leaders on a stage with an audience who then participates.
So you get this really broad view of what's happening. And then we get to have a conversation with 15 or 20 or 12 or whatever people over a dinner or breakfast and then really hear some of the cathartic challenges and an excitement and just so you know,
(25:25):
interest in collaborating and learning. So between those two, I feel like, you know, there's a real fortunate middle ground that we get to share with folks.
So I'm looking forward to hearing what you've learned as well.
Well, Ari, it's always great to chat to you. Thank you so much. As always, I look forward to the next time. And for now, that's been charting change in legal.
(25:51):
- Thank you so much. Bye, everyone.
(laughs)
Welcome to charting Change in Legal. I'm one of your hosts, Carolyn Hill, editor and chief of Legal
(00:07):
IT Insider, and I'm joined by my esteemed co-host.
Ari Kaplan. I'm an analyst who covers Legal and Carol, it's wonderful to see you.
Wonderful to see you too. How are you? What's going on?
I'm well and excited about having a conversation about non-generative AI topics
(00:28):
that I am certain will bring us right back to what we have been talking about,
what the legal industry has been talking about, and it's journey to chart change.
Well, I want to come back to that because there's some backlash, there's always going to be
backlash in our...
The backlash, that's our topic today, yeah.
But so there's always going to be different stages of the hype cycle, but there's a lot of backlash right now
(00:54):
against Jenny AI and what's perceived to be some sort of nonsense being written, but first,
sorry, I wanted to dive into you all doing a session at Ilter Evolve.
You've got a panel, I just wondered if you could share what you're talking about.
I'm not going to be going for the first time and have been asked to moderate a panel discussion
(01:18):
with several law firm leaders about practical ways that they are implementing generative AI.
So that's really what the discussion is.
The conference is in its defense, the conference is focused on AI and security.
So the one interesting thing that you can take away that isn't necessarily a generative AI principle
(01:40):
is that there is a very strong connection between security and emerging tools.
So we have been talking about this on the virtual lunch for the last couple of months, but if your firms security posture is weak
and your protocols and procedures are insufficient, you have much bigger fish to fry than whether or not you're going to have some tool
(02:03):
create a letter for you.
Your data will be at risk and people will not trust that you're now targeting this tool on all of your data
because you don't know what the safety level is.
And so I think it's going to be a really interesting conversation.
I'm looking to learn from a lot of the participants on the other sessions that are focused on cybersecurity
(02:26):
and just better information governance in an effort to push some of the emerging tools forward.
And I think that's one of the things that seems very good about this event, which I've never been to.
So your session is more focused on the cyber use cases or the use cases of generative AI
(02:47):
because this is the right.
Yeah, yeah, no, I think people really want to hear.
And the other thing is I think that the firms who are participating in this particular panel aren't talking as much about what they're doing
and they're doing some really interesting stuff. So I think you're going to hear some new voices and new ideas and the idea of adding to the suite of options that you have for this particular technology will be good.
(03:16):
I think it's going to really expand and contribute to the conversation.
It won't be talk.
It'll be a lot of let's kind of regroup and go over the actions that we've taken for the benefit of our community.
And I think that's really funny. You know, you mentioned this idea, this backlash.
And I just want to address that years ago, there was a campaign called bring back boring.
(03:41):
And it was yes, yes.
So this reminds me of that.
And it's just this idea of, look, let's just focus on what we need to focus on.
You think that this thing could launch some other tool and make that go somewhere.
But really all you need to do is put a chart together. So let's just focus on what's going to help you practice law the best way possible as opposed to impress me with all the different colors you can do it in.
(04:08):
You know, and I think it was a really interesting conversation led by a bunch of folks who have smartly developed and championed moving the ball forward as opposed to creating a new kind of ball or something.
And I think that's a really fun, fun discussion, which I respect.
So it's so funny. So a use cases, I think is absolutely the right way to go, you know, talking about real life applications.
(04:34):
And I think that the bring back boring campaign was all about almost like AI, AI mark one when we were three years ago when everybody was talking about AI and some very smart people.
So Alex Smith, I manage and I think probably Steven Allen who's now a client, and a ton of others were at this hashtag bring back boring because there was a lot of puff and talking about AI for the sake of AI.
(05:01):
And that's when Alex started to go to my I a not AI.
But so I think I'm seeing parallels now and actually those same voices, I don't know about Alex, but certainly Steven is a sort of railing against.
And that's what I was talking about when we first came on air, which is this talking about Gen.A.I for everything you just alluded to it.
(05:25):
Do you do need it for this particular task or are you just sort of talking about it for the sake of talking about it? Right. Is it is this a Gen.A.I thing and do you have your ducks in a row and all of the things that we always talk about.
But you know, why are we why are you talking about it? How are you using it? And let's just not think that Gen.A.I is the answer to everything because it's not so just so I'm doing a webinar with Steven and also Lexus Nexus in in a little while.
(05:54):
And they're talking about some of the automation work that they're doing. And Steven will say, you know, this is not a case for for Gen.A.I.
And they're actually going back to your security point that people will get into really big trouble if they haven't got their ducks in a row, which many of them still have not.
(06:17):
Your point about automation over Gen.A.I. is an interesting one because it's a clear trend where organizations and every organization is or should be having this conversation about what is this will it work for us? Where does it fit into our workflow? And often they will have that epiphany that wait, it isn't generative.
(06:38):
And we need it's document automation or some other kind of automation. And that makes a lot of sense. The other thing I'm seeing now is not just should we use it. What would we do with it? It's also where does it fit?
So when people are evaluating it, lots of good things are happening. They're asking, what is our data hygiene look like? So where's the security aspect that we need to focus on?
(07:02):
And automation and not generative AI? And also, where does it fit? And only after you evaluate your workflow and how good it is or where the flaws are? Can you decide, well, we have a hole. This could fit that and solve a problem that we didn't realize we had or that we have just been dealing with.
And so that question, not only should we use it, how do we use it, but where does it fit? Is increasingly compelling and helpful to a lot of organizations?
(07:29):
Yeah, absolutely. And just in case of do the hard work, you know, like we've been saying this for a long time and it feels to sometimes it feels like we're further ahead than we really are.
But you know, talking to lots of firms and I know talking to lots of firms that there's so a lot of hard work to be done, you know, like so, so for example, you know, moving various law firms are just a massive disparate data sources.
(07:54):
And that's still the case, no, like the webinar that I'm doing is focusing on case management. And they've moved 15 different systems into one, right, so that they can start to really make sense of the data and they can start to do some really clever stuff in terms of the M I they produced, you know, but but currently it's like a law fund that have particularly ones have grown through acquisition, because all the data and et cetera.
(08:21):
There's still facing some serious underlying issues in terms of having their data all over the place.
Yeah, it is clearly that is clearly an issue, but you have a lot of smart people who are trying to figure this out in law firms and you're also seeing a lot more senior leaders participating in that conversation more by and more championing and also more willingness to
(08:50):
fail, you know, just to like accept a misstep to just realize, well, is there a way that we can do is what firms are, I mean, they're logical and this is an environment now where, you know, the economy is starting to
create softening signs. I don't know exactly how you describe it because it's constantly shifting, but you know, you get the sense that firms are making decisions, but trying to make calculated decisions that are going to allow it to grow and move forward, but maybe do so in a way that is measured and less extravagant.
(09:31):
And so I think that's something that we should all be considering.
And just, but it's interesting just and just culturally we've took for a lot of time about, you know, cult changes of culture. What's interesting, what I'm seeing is in some cases.
Yeah, the leadership of getting on board, there's massive changes going on, but also what's quite funny is there's, take for example, going back to Mike's on for a case management, which is culturally unacceptable for a lot of very high level work.
(10:03):
So in some, in some, in some sense, they're changing, they may have something that is case management, but that has been adapted and they call it something different because just to make these things a little bit more culturally acceptable to people.
So it's kind of funny, you know, there's still this, there's still that like cultural wrangling going on, you know, like how do we move forward as an organization, but accepting, you know, there are certain for lawyers, you know,
(10:32):
there are certain limitations in, you know, how much they want to be seen to be doing streamlined work, you know, I mean, there's still like they want to be doing the very special stuff.
Well, yes, yes, but they're, they're, they're starting, you know, they're increasingly having the people who have to make those decisions and have to run that the, the data scientists of the project management leaders of the IT leaders, you know, they get their seat at the table so that they can.
(10:59):
At least say, look, you don't want to do this, I get it, but it has to be done and someone needs to lead it and we do need you to support at least whoever's leading it and the conversation you're right, the conversation is an interesting one and one that I think we're, we're all sort of having and, you know, in many of my discussions,
(11:20):
you know, you and I are both lucky to facilitate conversations that allow people to learn from one another and allow people to sort of understand where they're falling behind and where they could adopt some practice of their peers that are going to be more effective.
And there are more of those discussions happening, which is, I think, helpful. We're probably at a natural place in this evolution of how our field is using this technology.
(11:44):
It started out with wonder and then it went into some reality and now people are touching it on a regular basis and saying, you know, we, it's very good here.
It's, it's not great there. And also, what are the other challenges? So if we go back to this non-generative AI conversation, whenever I ask people, what's driving change in legal?
(12:13):
That's not gendered of AI. Is there something you can tell me? And things come up, you know, there's a generational shift happening in the profession and that generational shift, but then it always comes back to, well, because the newer generation will be more willing to adopt these, the older generation is not as well again.
And so it ends up coming back to technology anyway and then we talk about processes. Well, firms are re-evaluating or they're, they're clients are re-evaluating or it would be great if they could work together or the billing structure is changing.
(12:44):
So there are issues yet they all seem to come back to, well, the billing structure is changing because you can do things faster more efficiently with some generative tool or you can track your time better with some kind of AI tools.
So it's hard to actually to extract it from a conversation because it's, it's prompting many of these discussions, even if it's itself is not being the topic of those discussions.
(13:10):
And also, we, you and I, we quite often focus on large law, right? So naturally, you know, I have the cup, no doubt the firms are on your panel will be from, from my expects large law firms.
Not, not, not super large, actually, and over the years I have done research, I had my annual law firm report is focused on the midsize law firms, even a close smaller.
(13:36):
And I think one of the reasons that is important and that people should realize is important is because all of these new tools and streamlining your processes gives an organization the ability to level up, right there.
They can scale much more effectively with this technology. Imagine if you had agents who could expand your team in a digital way, all of a sudden it changes why someone would work with you and that conversation about billing or rates or discussions with outside counsel is happening because more organizations that would have worked with only a certain group of firms that they felt could support.
(14:19):
Their dockets are realizing, you know what, we can go to a firm that is more regional or smaller because they have the capability to scale to support us and they obviously have talented professionals, maybe one of them has moved there.
And so it's an interesting dynamic that's occurring, so you bring up a good point.
(14:40):
God, so many things pop up, so I've seen some really super exciting stuff recently in terms of a smaller organization leveraging a platform, not necessarily AI.
Again, going back to this point, it really, really making sure that their data is absolutely locked down in one place is completely integrated and using a lot going back to this recurring theme.
(15:10):
And I'm thinking of, I mentioned them a lot, but I've got something coming up that I'm writing about them for, so radient law, you know, they've got some new stuff that they're building and they work with some huge financial institutions, you know.
And I mean, they're not tiny, but they're not a huge law firm, but they have nailed down, you know, their processes and their workflow and they've built tools that mean that everything is standardized, right? That is the absolute key.
(15:35):
So that's interesting, but then what I was coming on to say about, I tend to be guilty of focusing too much, maybe on large law.
But more recently, I'm doing some work with around the mid market and smaller firms. You were kind enough to promote some of this work I'm doing on LinkedIn, I'm having a dinner talking to the senior leaders of mid market and small firms.
(16:03):
And it's based on that conversation will be somewhat based on some research that a company called Action Stepped it, which was a great report around the priorities now of mid market and small law firms.
And it'd be interesting to hear how this fits in with your learnings from your report, particularly where there is a jurisdictional difference, but their priorities largely were around talent retention.
(16:32):
And concerned about how to keep people and it they didn't seem to make the connection with technology, which was kind of fascinating and technology did not appear to be a massive priority for them, which was really fascinating.
There was obviously a proportion of a percentage that it was a priority for they talked about in the report about transformation, how important it was.
(16:57):
How you word these questions sometimes it would be interesting when we have a dinner to find out what their views are. But technology and transformation will not high up on the list talent retention was and the two, the indencing to me, much connection between the two, which I found fascinating.
Well, the conversation about talent retention is an interesting one because it's often about satisfaction and the work and being able to focus and having the time to have your cake and eat it too.
(17:25):
And I have always come to, you know, I've come to realize that the people who are satisfied, they are most people in legal.
And I would say at a certain size organization, they compete for the same kind of people, so they're paying a fairly level rate, right?
(17:46):
Law firms, you know, ascribed to a lock step. So if I I worked at a firm, I practiced for nearly nine years, I basically made what my colleague down the street made if we were the same kind of firm.
Maybe something similar, I think that the challenges of retention are often related to satisfaction of the work, the balance of the work. I mean, recently I was working on some projects. I loved the sort of the ability to simply focus.
(18:12):
And for them and for a lot of us, the idea of having a piece of technology or an administrative assistant helping doing something simultaneously while you're able to like really just need deep into the work, I think that is very satisfying.
So you think, wow, I didn't have to do any of that administrative stuff or any of the stuff, even if it wasn't administrative organize or analyze and summarize.
(18:39):
I feel like a blind doing Nick's commentary, you know, analyze and summarize digitize.
He's always moving in Groove and I guess it's a next playoff so I couldn't I couldn't help myself. My wife is a huge next man every time. Clyde is like moving in Groove and slicing and dicing.
(19:02):
And I'm always like, I love watching her laugh. She just like gets such a kick out of his commentary. So then I just feel like, look at me on the AI clients, like that, summarizing digitizing.
We're available for hard. I'm going to do a commentary. I'll, Ari, next stop, Ilta Evolve, Commissary Audit, implementing generative AI.
(19:26):
And there it is. I'm coming to Carolina just on the page.
Just for the final. That's right. I haven't actually organized a run. So I'm just thinking I actually told one of my panelists, if you want to run, I'll run with you.
So I have to kind of do that. I'll have to send something out today. Anybody feel like running anyway is anybody going to run?
(19:47):
And so we'll see what anyway. I think that I think that that's interesting. I'm excited to hear what you have to say and what you learn in that discussion.
And you know, I've seen that that mid market report for several years now. And it's well done high quality research. And we even we even talked about it on the virtual lunch a few years ago.
(20:09):
So it's interesting to see what's happening. And when I was at the association of legal administrators conference last year, I mentioned this point in one of the conclusions that I drew from my research was that the competitive landscape will begin to shift.
Firms will have to figure out how to change their structures from a billing standpoint. I'm in no way saying the bill blowers that I'm just saying that some projects maybe more projects will now lend themselves to a different structure.
(20:40):
And that may give an opportunity for disruption from smaller less familiar or more regional organizations with an equivalent level of talent and a really strong technology support structure.
If they get themselves together like and if they'll if so you can't generalize, but I feel that what it could what it can also do is it can enable big firms to start reaching further down, you know, the ones that the most tech savvy that I think that we we always assume that small firms there is a massive opportunity for them to play out right to to leverage technology to.
(21:22):
But there's also a big opportunity for firms to reach further down down to like if it doesn't cost more and if they can just do it as efficiently and they can use technology to sort of bodies, you know, and they can actually start to productize stuff and you know they do all kinds of opportunities if you've got people with tech savvy if it's worth their while financially, you know, obviously it depends.
(21:43):
But I feel like the moment is interesting, we perhaps we need, you know, I personally maybe need to do more as you said, be fascinating to hear what they've got to set this dinner and I'll feed that back to you.
But I feel like I'm not seeing right now the momentum from the mid market in terms of really capturing this opportunity and that may be just because we haven't spoken to the right people.
(22:09):
But actually, I haven't seen anything that shows that that is what's happening right now.
Yeah, no, I every time someone identifies an advantage like the advantage of them mid market firms to play up, they have to acknowledge that not only is there an advantage of somebody else to see that maybe a smaller firm and push into their market, but also for someone to maybe push down.
(22:38):
And that could result in some consolidation.
And you know, so you'll see I think I think the other thing that those organizations, the law firms especially have to realize is that as this technology becomes more user friendly and more deeply embedded that they have to identify what work they could consider losing.
(23:04):
And not that they will lose it, but they should anticipate that some of the work is likely to go away because it will not be necessary.
The clients themselves will have sufficient tools to do some of the work.
And I think that you'd have to acknowledge that.
I'm not suggesting that the sophistication of what lawyers do is in jeopardy, but it's sort of a chipping away process and they need to.
(23:33):
Understand that and in fact get ahead of it. So one of the things I'm going to be speaking at clock and I'm doing some research now and anticipation of that.
And one of the things that law firms can really gain an advantage with is to proactively collaborate and understand and share what they've learned with their clients because no matter how large that company is, they're not focusing in the same way just on the law department as a law firm.
(24:00):
Right, their whole business is legal. And so they've learned things and applied things across an entire array of matters and organizations that could be really helpful to their clients.
And the firms that do that are really gaining an advantage in partnering and so they will anticipate what could happen and try to bypass it by being so proactive.
(24:27):
Yeah, well, I can't wait. I mean, that's the next thing isn't it? So you can't wait to hear about how the ultra evolved goes and what the key perhaps we can talk about some of the use cases and then when we get to that, that's going to be fascinating.
So so I look forward to you feeding back as well. You know, what some of the conclusions from the research.
Yeah, and between our between our various dinners and sort of no, I mean, I think that I think that the one thing one of the things that I love about what we get to do is that.
(24:56):
We get to have these conversations at a macro level facilitate a conversation with a group of leaders on a stage with an audience who then participates.
So you get this really broad view of what's happening. And then we get to have a conversation with 15 or 20 or 12 or whatever people over a dinner or breakfast and then really hear some of the cathartic challenges and an excitement and just so you know,
(25:25):
interest in collaborating and learning. So between those two, I feel like, you know, there's a real fortunate middle ground that we get to share with folks.
So I'm looking forward to hearing what you've learned as well.
Well, Ari, it's always great to chat to you. Thank you so much. As always, I look forward to the next time. And for now, that's been charting change in legal.
(25:51):
- Thank you so much. Bye, everyone.
(laughs)
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