In this 41st episode of Charting Change in Legal, Caroline Hill, Editor and Publisher of Legal IT Insider, and I discussed value-based billing, driving firmwide innovation, and cultivating a willingness to be engaged.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
>> Welcome everyone to Charding Change in Legal.
(00:08):
I am Ari Kaplan.
I'm an analyst that covers the legal industry and privilege to be here today with my colleague.
>> Caroline Hill.
>> The weird pause is always my favorite of our still imperfect introduction.
>> I'm Caroline Hill.
(00:29):
>> Hi everyone.
I'm editor of Lee by T inside of great to be here.
Ari, I've missed you.
>> It has been a wonderful series of conversations that has kept us apart but I'm excited to recap them in this discussion.
So thank you.
>> When I said I've missed you, you said it has been wonderful.
>> That's, that's, and our speaking has been so freeing, I'm just wow.
(00:56):
I feel so refreshed.
I want to, I want to make a quick admission to our listener and that is that I was on a 130 day
Peloton core strength streak and I was really proud of it.
And one day I was hosting a dinner in Atlanta and I was so tired from taking the 6 a.m. flight
(01:18):
and doing the dinner and getting back to my hotel.
I passed out and I lost the streak so I'm back to like day seven.
>> No.
>> Yeah.
>> Starting change people, charting change but.
>> That is outrageous.
>> To only get 100 day Peloton streak people, this is disgusting.
>> 130.
>> What?
>> And, and, but, but it's over now and I think there's a lesson there.
(01:40):
Striegans, new streak begins, so I'm on a new streak and I think that we're there and legal.
How about that?
How about that segue and tie in?
I think that we, we really are in this moment of trying to build wins on top of wins.
And it started, I feel like it started for me in this discussion and probably for you but
(02:02):
at legal week, right?
Because earlier in the year maybe started even earlier than that in terms of the research
that we both have been doing since the beginning of the year but we're almost at the midway
point and it just seems really interesting that people are embracing not just, and you know,
it's been a few seconds since we started, not just generative AI but lots of emerging
(02:25):
tools, looking at all different pockets of where automation fits and where you can create
efficiencies in your billing and where you can actually do core legal work.
So it's not just back office now, it's just a lot of how do we build efficiencies?
So you know, you and I have been lucky to have a series of conversations and it's been,
not just between us but with our constituents and it's been wonderful.
(02:48):
>> It's been so, for long since I last played Tee and I know the same for you, it's been
and some amazing conversations and a lot of face to face conversations.
I know you do a lot of dinners, I'm doing more of them.
So I've had, can come back to the content in a set but had dinners with different people
around the table which has been super cool.
(03:08):
So sometimes there's a danger of this sort of echo chamber where we're surrounded by
firms of the same size.
And actually at dinner, I hosted a couple of weeks ago, I had some smaller firms, sort of
some, in fact, a couple of really small boutiques and then a mid-sized firm.
We had some in-house people around the table and we were talking about Gen A.I.
(03:29):
And we were kind of trying to find those areas of differences and those areas of common
experience and it was fascinating.
And I don't know if you want me to jump right in with one of the fascinating things because
I haven't written about this yet.
But I'm going to, spoiler alert, I'm going to write a piece called The Leaders Are Not Who
You Think They Are or Something Among Those Lines because-
(03:51):
Ooh, ominous, you're scripting a black mirror episode.
Of the firms around the table who were not well known really.
Two of them used value-based billing.
One of them was on a four-day week.
One of them had no targets for their lawyers and it was just amazing in terms of, they
(04:14):
weren't particularly progressive in terms of the types of Gen A.I.
They were still quite much like many firms I speak to in the kind of discovery phase still,
you know, the trial in which is actually fine.
Many of them used in copilot, actually, but they weren't there because they were sort
of really far down the track.
But what they did have was this extraordinary base on which- which we- you know, we've
(04:38):
talked about the bill of allow-endlessly and will not probably do so today.
One listener don't run away, it's fine, we probably won't.
But we, they have, there's some firms that are going under the radar are really have this
perfect base for leveraging new technology, you know, and actually think we should be
(05:00):
focusing more on them, like how do they get there?
Because it was quite eye opening.
Yeah, I mean, many of my conversations, and so this all started when I was at Ivalve
and I hosted a panel about how law firms are using Gen A.I. super interesting.
Then I flew to Palo Alto and had a conversation with deal lawyers and deal makers, so corporate
(05:21):
development folks in Palo Alto and Silicon Valley, all the big tech companies talking about
that amazing use case is the one thing that I think that you're absolutely right on is
that people hearing from their peers, how they are practically doing things outside of
sort of the grand vision for what this could be and also beyond some of the very few
(05:45):
in legal who are just doing really extraordinary things who are just remarkable who who present
their dynamic, you know, system and structure and plan in front of hundreds of, you know, captivated
fans.
I think that the nitty gritty is a different reality.
And yet still you're seeing real opportunity.
(06:08):
And you're also recognizing that even people you would expect organizations that you
would expect to have this all set, don't.
And that's okay.
And that the idea of people being together, being vulnerable and asking kind of meaningful
questions in a safe environment where no one's being judged because we all live in the
same glass house when it comes to this is really really important.
(06:31):
And just I think that you're absolutely right.
And also you've made a really fun comment that, you know, you're seeing the landscape flattening
a little bit where smaller or mid-size organizations are punching way above where they had because
they're now empowered with additional team members and agents and just a better processes
(06:52):
that allow them to move more quickly and act more comprehensively.
And that actually, on that last point, was it seems to be of the smaller firms that I speak
to, I've been speaking to them a lot more recently.
That seems to be the challenge.
So they've got, they can be in theory they can be in the more.
(07:14):
There are actually quite a lot of, you know, compared to the ones I've spoken to that
really have this all sewn up, some of the small firms, they suffer from that personality,
strong personalities, people being busy, not all of them have that, you know, all of that
workflow sewn up, or, you know, they suffer from a lot of challenges that are perhaps more,
(07:36):
you know, quite a lot more basic challenges to be frank with you, you know, should we move
to the cloud?
That's still it, that's still kind of, you know, there are lots of firms don't get me wrong,
that are not the sort of hugely advanced, but they have the potential, I think this is
the thing, you know, you're speaking to the firms that have managed to move to value base
billing, and, and, we can only look to them as examples and, and stop having conversations
(08:00):
with them and say, how did you do that?
I think I've been having lots of conversations with firms about how they're leveraging
GNI, I, I'm from a very practical point standpoint, I just did a webinar with Thompson Wittes
and a law firm called Accurity and they've been talking through their own journey and
their challenges and how they've been addressing revenue concerns and ROI.
(08:22):
I think having those conversations and sharing that knowledge is still very much part
of this journey where we're at right now.
One of the other things I feel like I've been fortunate to do over the last few weeks
since we spoke is have some of these conversations with specific kinds of lawyers.
So those who are only doing litigation or those who are only doing transactional work
(08:47):
as opposed to the individuals driving firm-wide innovation and also having conversations
with in-house leaders who themselves are of different sizes, you know, some from marquee
companies that that run the world and some from companies you've never heard of that do
(09:08):
amazing things in pockets of their universe.
The one takeaway from every one of these discussions and as you mentioned I've done four dinners
in the last few weeks, I was lucky to facilitate a leadership conversation for half a day
with many of the leaders at clock and and of course, you know, be in these different cities
and in between, proudly my son graduated college.
(09:31):
So thank you.
Yeah, it was super super fun.
There were lots of runs in between this.
I ran in in Merrill Beach, there are several runs in Las Vegas, but all that being said,
the one takeaway is that law firms would love to have a conversation with their clients to
show them what they're doing and to clarify this, what I've come to call this schizophrenic
(09:53):
policymaking that is taking place in a retainer letter in a AI policy.
They're incongruous and inconsistencies and it just doesn't make any sense and the companies
themselves who hire outside counsel would love to have a conversation about what they're
really doing so that they can develop better policies where they might see some benefit
(10:15):
in terms of a discount, where the law department which has far fewer resources than some of these
large law firms for sure can gain a benefit by learning where they can kind of cross pollinate
and the conversation is just not happening as much as it should and that is a huge area
of opportunity.
(10:35):
Every room I'm in, when I'm in a room, yes, so I was in Chicago a couple days ago hosting
a dinner and then the next morning hosted a breakfast for litigation support and litigation
leaders and I said the same thing, I said, you know, you can get a huge benefit by just engaging
your client and then the night before when I was with the clients, I was like, why don't you
ask your law firms?
They want desperately to have this conversation.
(10:56):
Most of you are enormous companies, so your law firms clearly have their resources and are
definitely doing something.
Let's have a dialogue.
What's happening here?
I think that's it.
It's a gap there that can easily be filled simply by being proactive.
It all comes down to communication, doesn't it?
Communication, I was on a panel yesterday at Clio and we were about change management and
(11:20):
some various different takes on it from different people depending on their own lens.
So I was asked about media's role in fanning, fanning the flames of hype, which is just
like a tangent, but the bottom line came down to communication and that's exactly what
you've been talking about.
It's almost like a teenage romance, isn't it?
You know, I mean, I was doing there, things I want to talk to each other.
(11:46):
And I think the communication theme is almost like firms need to spark the imagination of their
people and find words which resonate with them and find stories to explain why this is
important in itself.
And communication, the other thing that came up about the communication line is about internally
(12:07):
so it could be with your client or it could be internally and sharing stories internally
about how you're doing things and successes.
And you know, because you could beat people over the head to do things, but actually if you
tell a great story and if you share experiences and you communicate with people about what's
working and hey, so and so in such a department has done this and we've seen really great results
(12:29):
and this is how he or she is using this and it isn't something that we never thought would
happen.
You know, actually when I was over at NegoWeek, this is something that Rob Kerr Winston
and Straun is doing.
So in sort of the internal use of Gen A.I. tools, they're finding some really unusual use
cases they didn't expect.
So then they're communicating that to people saying, hey, our partner here is using co-pilot
(12:52):
to show what he's built, you know, whatever.
I looked at it recently so maybe that maybe not completely accurate, but that's the gist
of it.
You know, they've got these unusual use cases and they're communicating it and again with
their clients, you know, they need to find meaningful ways of communicating, you know, and
and yeah, I think you're right.
I think you're right.
(13:13):
They're missing your truth.
One of the general counsel at my dinner recently made a comment in terms of driving interest
and change and leveraging new technology and he said, you know, 51% of engagement is the
willingness of the individual to be engaged.
(13:34):
And lots of other people started nodding their head, they're like, I think it's higher.
I think it's a huge component that as much as we're trying to drive change and as much
as we're trying to move people into a different mindset, they need to be willing and they
need to embrace what we're doing.
And that also struck me as a way for people to stand out because you know, the other sort
(13:57):
of shadow conversation that's taking place here is too much of this isn't a good thing.
If we use too much of this, we won't need ourselves and there will be people who get eliminated
or, you know, half a roll will be eliminated.
So when that person leaves, we won't backfill it or we can't get a budget now.
We're in an economically constrained environment and a very confused regulatory moment and
(14:20):
there's a lot of uncertainty and we're not adding this or we can't do that.
And so there was, you know, when you, as you know, when you gather people in a more intimate
setting, the frustration and the fear get kind of coupled with the enthusiasm and the
excitement and the promise and there's a really interesting thing.
(14:45):
When I was lucky to be part of a skills discussion with Osprey Amram at Legal Week and someone
in the audience mentioned that they're seeing lots of increased usage of a lot of the tools
that all the innovation leaders in the room were introducing at their firms, but that usage
was coming from the group that was already using it and going deeper with it as opposed
to going broader and having many more users.
(15:07):
And it just seemed to me that there's also an opportunity for people to be more willing
to be part of the change process and to leverage some of the new applications that are being
offered as a way for them themselves to just stand out at their organizations, whether
it's a law firm or law department.
(15:29):
It feels a little bit chicken and egg because it's case of how do they get to be willing,
right?
Particularly for older lawyers who have seen things work and they've done it this way and
it's always worked and it's been fine.
I think that's some of the reluctance people are thinking that it's not broken.
(15:49):
Why are we trying to change it?
There's amongst the older generation.
There's an unwillingness because they don't understand why things need to change and actually
so then I think it might come back to, so that's why I say chicken and egg because then
it comes back to how do you make them understand in a way that resonates with them because
(16:11):
otherwise it's all just hype.
People it's very easy for people just to hear this stuff.
It's all just hype, it'll pass.
And then it's so it's case of how do you bring people along on the journey in a way so
that you're communicating in a way that resonates with them and that's a massive challenge.
And I think from everything, for all the conversations I've been having, a lot of it comes down to
(16:36):
tone from the top so you really need that big leadership buy-in, right?
Unless if your leaders are not embodying the message then nobody else listens.
So actually a lot of it comes from leadership from sort of using, you know, living by example
(16:56):
and if you don't have that then people, and that is what people are really struggling with
in the conversations I'm having, you know, and you've got these pockets of enthusiasm.
But it's just going to be pockets unless you've got that really strong leadership, that
really strong messaging and then just that continuous.
It seems to me to be continuous communication and I was having a conversation just earlier
(17:19):
today on a webinar about how, you know, with the guardrails that people are putting in place
around Gen AI, I said, "Oh, what's sort of key to getting through to people on that?"
And the woman I was speaking to said, "Continuous repetition."
I said, "Actually, when you think about it, Gen AI is not really so different to any other
(17:40):
technology, right?
I mean, it is and it isn't.
It's new challenges, but actually so many of the things that we talk about are on the
same for any technology with email, right?
You mustn't send emails.
You mustn't do this with emails.
You mustn't click on a link and it's just a case of in order to get that willing, maybe
to increase that willingness and open minds.
(18:01):
It's about getting the right message, but then it's almost just about being repeating and
repeating and repeating.
I think maybe that's some of the message, some of what I'm hearing.
If people who are reluctant had spent five minutes a day for the last year being part of
something and testing it or trying it out on one tiny example, they would be experts at
(18:26):
their organizations by far.
And we have seen that we see this in lots of pockets of our lives, frankly, right?
I mean, in my first book, I wrote something in the introduction that was in 2007.
If you put $100 a month in the way to a market bearing mutual fund and didn't pay attention
to it, and then every single month, then from 25 to 65, you would have a million dollars
or something, whatever the numbers show.
(18:47):
Doing absolutely nothing, just being as consistent as you possibly can, the same is true with your
fitness, with your diet.
There are just so many examples of this in our lives.
I find it interesting that we characterize this as change is so hard.
And then this general council was like, well, it's on an individual level of embracing it.
And I just think, you know, the bar is incredibly low for an individual to distinguish themselves,
(19:11):
because if that's all it takes to just be willing at the first, obviously, training
is crucial.
And you need to sort of get up.
I know a coach, a fitness coach who talks to a swim coach, this is how I know her.
And she said, you know, I'm like, I can't, sometimes I just can't get up.
I don't feel like doing this.
I don't feel like doing that.
She's like, make a deal with yourself and just make a deal that you're going to set
(19:34):
you're along.
Then make another deal that you're going to put your shoes on.
And you know, there are all these different hacks for this dress dress in your fitness
clothes or, you know, have a drink of water next to your bed or whatever the, whatever
the thing is, but I think that if we can maybe come up with hacks or something that motivates
people, as you say, show them the benefits and maybe show them someone who was kind of
(19:56):
at their level and just sort of catapulted into leadership or something because they embrace
this.
Maybe there's, you know, there's a huge incentive and not everyone is doing it.
So it's a moment where if you have even a bit of interest and a bit of motivation, you
might really be able to springboard and instead of worrying about the fear of being replaced,
(20:19):
now you are the one that is elevating because you're trying to come up with solutions for
the organization to assuage those fears.
If there's anyone out there that's done this already, catapulted, get in touch with us.
That's right.
You'll see.
We know you're there.
We will find you at a dinner at a panel.
We will see you.
(20:40):
You might join a run.
No, you never know.
But yes, I might say that's my takeaway.
So I mean, the other takeaways, I'm asleep in my gym clothes.
That's wrong.
You see, with a $100 bill in your hand so that you can invest that every month without fail,
market up, market down.
I'm not giving any advice whatsoever.
I'm just saying, I read that all the time since I was a kid.
(21:02):
It's so common, just so themed and you're like, can't be that easy.
But I think people it may be.
So let's see what that is.
We'll Carol and Hill.
Every week, every time, I'll ask in the evening.
Yes, I enjoy this so much and I'm so glad to be having this conversation.
I maybe we'll chat again a second time within our time frame just so we can have maybe
(21:27):
a deeper dive on like, what happened at clock?
I'd love to know what's going on at your dinner.
I'd love to tell you somebody asked me something interesting that I will leave with the
group, which was I did a series of dinners that was in Las Vegas and then a few days
later in Dallas and a few days later in Atlanta, a few days later in Chicago.
Someone in Chicago said, what's the difference between the conversations you've had here in
Chicago that you had in Atlanta versus that you had?
(21:48):
And it was interesting because I started then deconstructing the makeup of who was there
on the size of the organizations and the culture of the city and the type of industry.
And it really did have an effect and we had this very meaningful dialogue that I didn't
expect about the differences.
And of course you said the role of those individuals in those rooms does in fact make a difference.
(22:12):
So let's just keep having these discussions.
I do some analysis of that.
Someone said that.
Someone said, why don't you upload your notes and say, what's the difference between these
conversations?
So maybe next time we'll say.
Anyway, Calla Hill, charting change in legal.
A privilege as always.
Thank you.
Bye.
Thank you.
[ Silence ]
>> Welcome everyone to Charding Change in Legal.
(00:08):
I am Ari Kaplan.
I'm an analyst that covers the legal industry and privilege to be here today with my colleague.
>> Caroline Hill.
>> The weird pause is always my favorite of our still imperfect introduction.
>> I'm Caroline Hill.
(00:29):
>> Hi everyone.
I'm editor of Lee by T inside of great to be here.
Ari, I've missed you.
>> It has been a wonderful series of conversations that has kept us apart but I'm excited to recap them in this discussion.
So thank you.
>> When I said I've missed you, you said it has been wonderful.
>> That's, that's, and our speaking has been so freeing, I'm just wow.
(00:56):
I feel so refreshed.
I want to, I want to make a quick admission to our listener and that is that I was on a 130 day
Peloton core strength streak and I was really proud of it.
And one day I was hosting a dinner in Atlanta and I was so tired from taking the 6 a.m. flight
(01:18):
and doing the dinner and getting back to my hotel.
I passed out and I lost the streak so I'm back to like day seven.
>> No.
>> Yeah.
>> Starting change people, charting change but.
>> That is outrageous.
>> To only get 100 day Peloton streak people, this is disgusting.
>> 130.
>> What?
>> And, and, but, but it's over now and I think there's a lesson there.
(01:40):
Striegans, new streak begins, so I'm on a new streak and I think that we're there and legal.
How about that?
How about that segue and tie in?
I think that we, we really are in this moment of trying to build wins on top of wins.
And it started, I feel like it started for me in this discussion and probably for you but
(02:02):
at legal week, right?
Because earlier in the year maybe started even earlier than that in terms of the research
that we both have been doing since the beginning of the year but we're almost at the midway
point and it just seems really interesting that people are embracing not just, and you know,
it's been a few seconds since we started, not just generative AI but lots of emerging
(02:25):
tools, looking at all different pockets of where automation fits and where you can create
efficiencies in your billing and where you can actually do core legal work.
So it's not just back office now, it's just a lot of how do we build efficiencies?
So you know, you and I have been lucky to have a series of conversations and it's been,
not just between us but with our constituents and it's been wonderful.
(02:48):
>> It's been so, for long since I last played Tee and I know the same for you, it's been
and some amazing conversations and a lot of face to face conversations.
I know you do a lot of dinners, I'm doing more of them.
So I've had, can come back to the content in a set but had dinners with different people
around the table which has been super cool.
(03:08):
So sometimes there's a danger of this sort of echo chamber where we're surrounded by
firms of the same size.
And actually at dinner, I hosted a couple of weeks ago, I had some smaller firms, sort of
some, in fact, a couple of really small boutiques and then a mid-sized firm.
We had some in-house people around the table and we were talking about Gen A.I.
(03:29):
And we were kind of trying to find those areas of differences and those areas of common
experience and it was fascinating.
And I don't know if you want me to jump right in with one of the fascinating things because
I haven't written about this yet.
But I'm going to, spoiler alert, I'm going to write a piece called The Leaders Are Not Who
You Think They Are or Something Among Those Lines because-
(03:51):
Ooh, ominous, you're scripting a black mirror episode.
Of the firms around the table who were not well known really.
Two of them used value-based billing.
One of them was on a four-day week.
One of them had no targets for their lawyers and it was just amazing in terms of, they
(04:14):
weren't particularly progressive in terms of the types of Gen A.I.
They were still quite much like many firms I speak to in the kind of discovery phase still,
you know, the trial in which is actually fine.
Many of them used in copilot, actually, but they weren't there because they were sort
of really far down the track.
But what they did have was this extraordinary base on which- which we- you know, we've
(04:38):
talked about the bill of allow-endlessly and will not probably do so today.
One listener don't run away, it's fine, we probably won't.
But we, they have, there's some firms that are going under the radar are really have this
perfect base for leveraging new technology, you know, and actually think we should be
(05:00):
focusing more on them, like how do they get there?
Because it was quite eye opening.
Yeah, I mean, many of my conversations, and so this all started when I was at Ivalve
and I hosted a panel about how law firms are using Gen A.I. super interesting.
Then I flew to Palo Alto and had a conversation with deal lawyers and deal makers, so corporate
(05:21):
development folks in Palo Alto and Silicon Valley, all the big tech companies talking about
that amazing use case is the one thing that I think that you're absolutely right on is
that people hearing from their peers, how they are practically doing things outside of
sort of the grand vision for what this could be and also beyond some of the very few
(05:45):
in legal who are just doing really extraordinary things who are just remarkable who who present
their dynamic, you know, system and structure and plan in front of hundreds of, you know, captivated
fans.
I think that the nitty gritty is a different reality.
And yet still you're seeing real opportunity.
(06:08):
And you're also recognizing that even people you would expect organizations that you
would expect to have this all set, don't.
And that's okay.
And that the idea of people being together, being vulnerable and asking kind of meaningful
questions in a safe environment where no one's being judged because we all live in the
same glass house when it comes to this is really really important.
(06:31):
And just I think that you're absolutely right.
And also you've made a really fun comment that, you know, you're seeing the landscape flattening
a little bit where smaller or mid-size organizations are punching way above where they had because
they're now empowered with additional team members and agents and just a better processes
(06:52):
that allow them to move more quickly and act more comprehensively.
And that actually, on that last point, was it seems to be of the smaller firms that I speak
to, I've been speaking to them a lot more recently.
That seems to be the challenge.
So they've got, they can be in theory they can be in the more.
(07:14):
There are actually quite a lot of, you know, compared to the ones I've spoken to that
really have this all sewn up, some of the small firms, they suffer from that personality,
strong personalities, people being busy, not all of them have that, you know, all of that
workflow sewn up, or, you know, they suffer from a lot of challenges that are perhaps more,
(07:36):
you know, quite a lot more basic challenges to be frank with you, you know, should we move
to the cloud?
That's still it, that's still kind of, you know, there are lots of firms don't get me wrong,
that are not the sort of hugely advanced, but they have the potential, I think this is
the thing, you know, you're speaking to the firms that have managed to move to value base
billing, and, and, we can only look to them as examples and, and stop having conversations
(08:00):
with them and say, how did you do that?
I think I've been having lots of conversations with firms about how they're leveraging
GNI, I, I'm from a very practical point standpoint, I just did a webinar with Thompson Wittes
and a law firm called Accurity and they've been talking through their own journey and
their challenges and how they've been addressing revenue concerns and ROI.
(08:22):
I think having those conversations and sharing that knowledge is still very much part
of this journey where we're at right now.
One of the other things I feel like I've been fortunate to do over the last few weeks
since we spoke is have some of these conversations with specific kinds of lawyers.
So those who are only doing litigation or those who are only doing transactional work
(08:47):
as opposed to the individuals driving firm-wide innovation and also having conversations
with in-house leaders who themselves are of different sizes, you know, some from marquee
companies that that run the world and some from companies you've never heard of that do
(09:08):
amazing things in pockets of their universe.
The one takeaway from every one of these discussions and as you mentioned I've done four dinners
in the last few weeks, I was lucky to facilitate a leadership conversation for half a day
with many of the leaders at clock and and of course, you know, be in these different cities
and in between, proudly my son graduated college.
(09:31):
So thank you.
Yeah, it was super super fun.
There were lots of runs in between this.
I ran in in Merrill Beach, there are several runs in Las Vegas, but all that being said,
the one takeaway is that law firms would love to have a conversation with their clients to
show them what they're doing and to clarify this, what I've come to call this schizophrenic
(09:53):
policymaking that is taking place in a retainer letter in a AI policy.
They're incongruous and inconsistencies and it just doesn't make any sense and the companies
themselves who hire outside counsel would love to have a conversation about what they're
really doing so that they can develop better policies where they might see some benefit
(10:15):
in terms of a discount, where the law department which has far fewer resources than some of these
large law firms for sure can gain a benefit by learning where they can kind of cross pollinate
and the conversation is just not happening as much as it should and that is a huge area
of opportunity.
(10:35):
Every room I'm in, when I'm in a room, yes, so I was in Chicago a couple days ago hosting
a dinner and then the next morning hosted a breakfast for litigation support and litigation
leaders and I said the same thing, I said, you know, you can get a huge benefit by just engaging
your client and then the night before when I was with the clients, I was like, why don't you
ask your law firms?
They want desperately to have this conversation.
(10:56):
Most of you are enormous companies, so your law firms clearly have their resources and are
definitely doing something.
Let's have a dialogue.
What's happening here?
I think that's it.
It's a gap there that can easily be filled simply by being proactive.
It all comes down to communication, doesn't it?
Communication, I was on a panel yesterday at Clio and we were about change management and
(11:20):
some various different takes on it from different people depending on their own lens.
So I was asked about media's role in fanning, fanning the flames of hype, which is just
like a tangent, but the bottom line came down to communication and that's exactly what
you've been talking about.
It's almost like a teenage romance, isn't it?
You know, I mean, I was doing there, things I want to talk to each other.
(11:46):
And I think the communication theme is almost like firms need to spark the imagination of their
people and find words which resonate with them and find stories to explain why this is
important in itself.
And communication, the other thing that came up about the communication line is about internally
(12:07):
so it could be with your client or it could be internally and sharing stories internally
about how you're doing things and successes.
And you know, because you could beat people over the head to do things, but actually if you
tell a great story and if you share experiences and you communicate with people about what's
working and hey, so and so in such a department has done this and we've seen really great results
(12:29):
and this is how he or she is using this and it isn't something that we never thought would
happen.
You know, actually when I was over at NegoWeek, this is something that Rob Kerr Winston
and Straun is doing.
So in sort of the internal use of Gen A.I. tools, they're finding some really unusual use
cases they didn't expect.
So then they're communicating that to people saying, hey, our partner here is using co-pilot
(12:52):
to show what he's built, you know, whatever.
I looked at it recently so maybe that maybe not completely accurate, but that's the gist
of it.
You know, they've got these unusual use cases and they're communicating it and again with
their clients, you know, they need to find meaningful ways of communicating, you know, and
and yeah, I think you're right.
I think you're right.
(13:13):
They're missing your truth.
One of the general counsel at my dinner recently made a comment in terms of driving interest
and change and leveraging new technology and he said, you know, 51% of engagement is the
willingness of the individual to be engaged.
(13:34):
And lots of other people started nodding their head, they're like, I think it's higher.
I think it's a huge component that as much as we're trying to drive change and as much
as we're trying to move people into a different mindset, they need to be willing and they
need to embrace what we're doing.
And that also struck me as a way for people to stand out because you know, the other sort
(13:57):
of shadow conversation that's taking place here is too much of this isn't a good thing.
If we use too much of this, we won't need ourselves and there will be people who get eliminated
or, you know, half a roll will be eliminated.
So when that person leaves, we won't backfill it or we can't get a budget now.
We're in an economically constrained environment and a very confused regulatory moment and
(14:20):
there's a lot of uncertainty and we're not adding this or we can't do that.
And so there was, you know, when you, as you know, when you gather people in a more intimate
setting, the frustration and the fear get kind of coupled with the enthusiasm and the
excitement and the promise and there's a really interesting thing.
(14:45):
When I was lucky to be part of a skills discussion with Osprey Amram at Legal Week and someone
in the audience mentioned that they're seeing lots of increased usage of a lot of the tools
that all the innovation leaders in the room were introducing at their firms, but that usage
was coming from the group that was already using it and going deeper with it as opposed
to going broader and having many more users.
(15:07):
And it just seemed to me that there's also an opportunity for people to be more willing
to be part of the change process and to leverage some of the new applications that are being
offered as a way for them themselves to just stand out at their organizations, whether
it's a law firm or law department.
(15:29):
It feels a little bit chicken and egg because it's case of how do they get to be willing,
right?
Particularly for older lawyers who have seen things work and they've done it this way and
it's always worked and it's been fine.
I think that's some of the reluctance people are thinking that it's not broken.
(15:49):
Why are we trying to change it?
There's amongst the older generation.
There's an unwillingness because they don't understand why things need to change and actually
so then I think it might come back to, so that's why I say chicken and egg because then
it comes back to how do you make them understand in a way that resonates with them because
(16:11):
otherwise it's all just hype.
People it's very easy for people just to hear this stuff.
It's all just hype, it'll pass.
And then it's so it's case of how do you bring people along on the journey in a way so
that you're communicating in a way that resonates with them and that's a massive challenge.
And I think from everything, for all the conversations I've been having, a lot of it comes down to
(16:36):
tone from the top so you really need that big leadership buy-in, right?
Unless if your leaders are not embodying the message then nobody else listens.
So actually a lot of it comes from leadership from sort of using, you know, living by example
(16:56):
and if you don't have that then people, and that is what people are really struggling with
in the conversations I'm having, you know, and you've got these pockets of enthusiasm.
But it's just going to be pockets unless you've got that really strong leadership, that
really strong messaging and then just that continuous.
It seems to me to be continuous communication and I was having a conversation just earlier
(17:19):
today on a webinar about how, you know, with the guardrails that people are putting in place
around Gen AI, I said, "Oh, what's sort of key to getting through to people on that?"
And the woman I was speaking to said, "Continuous repetition."
I said, "Actually, when you think about it, Gen AI is not really so different to any other
(17:40):
technology, right?
I mean, it is and it isn't.
It's new challenges, but actually so many of the things that we talk about are on the
same for any technology with email, right?
You mustn't send emails.
You mustn't do this with emails.
You mustn't click on a link and it's just a case of in order to get that willing, maybe
to increase that willingness and open minds.
(18:01):
It's about getting the right message, but then it's almost just about being repeating and
repeating and repeating.
I think maybe that's some of the message, some of what I'm hearing.
If people who are reluctant had spent five minutes a day for the last year being part of
something and testing it or trying it out on one tiny example, they would be experts at
(18:26):
their organizations by far.
And we have seen that we see this in lots of pockets of our lives, frankly, right?
I mean, in my first book, I wrote something in the introduction that was in 2007.
If you put $100 a month in the way to a market bearing mutual fund and didn't pay attention
to it, and then every single month, then from 25 to 65, you would have a million dollars
or something, whatever the numbers show.
(18:47):
Doing absolutely nothing, just being as consistent as you possibly can, the same is true with your
fitness, with your diet.
There are just so many examples of this in our lives.
I find it interesting that we characterize this as change is so hard.
And then this general council was like, well, it's on an individual level of embracing it.
And I just think, you know, the bar is incredibly low for an individual to distinguish themselves,
(19:11):
because if that's all it takes to just be willing at the first, obviously, training
is crucial.
And you need to sort of get up.
I know a coach, a fitness coach who talks to a swim coach, this is how I know her.
And she said, you know, I'm like, I can't, sometimes I just can't get up.
I don't feel like doing this.
I don't feel like doing that.
She's like, make a deal with yourself and just make a deal that you're going to set
(19:34):
you're along.
Then make another deal that you're going to put your shoes on.
And you know, there are all these different hacks for this dress dress in your fitness
clothes or, you know, have a drink of water next to your bed or whatever the, whatever
the thing is, but I think that if we can maybe come up with hacks or something that motivates
people, as you say, show them the benefits and maybe show them someone who was kind of
(19:56):
at their level and just sort of catapulted into leadership or something because they embrace
this.
Maybe there's, you know, there's a huge incentive and not everyone is doing it.
So it's a moment where if you have even a bit of interest and a bit of motivation, you
might really be able to springboard and instead of worrying about the fear of being replaced,
(20:19):
now you are the one that is elevating because you're trying to come up with solutions for
the organization to assuage those fears.
If there's anyone out there that's done this already, catapulted, get in touch with us.
That's right.
You'll see.
We know you're there.
We will find you at a dinner at a panel.
We will see you.
(20:40):
You might join a run.
No, you never know.
But yes, I might say that's my takeaway.
So I mean, the other takeaways, I'm asleep in my gym clothes.
That's wrong.
You see, with a $100 bill in your hand so that you can invest that every month without fail,
market up, market down.
I'm not giving any advice whatsoever.
I'm just saying, I read that all the time since I was a kid.
(21:02):
It's so common, just so themed and you're like, can't be that easy.
But I think people it may be.
So let's see what that is.
We'll Carol and Hill.
Every week, every time, I'll ask in the evening.
Yes, I enjoy this so much and I'm so glad to be having this conversation.
I maybe we'll chat again a second time within our time frame just so we can have maybe
(21:27):
a deeper dive on like, what happened at clock?
I'd love to know what's going on at your dinner.
I'd love to tell you somebody asked me something interesting that I will leave with the
group, which was I did a series of dinners that was in Las Vegas and then a few days
later in Dallas and a few days later in Atlanta, a few days later in Chicago.
Someone in Chicago said, what's the difference between the conversations you've had here in
Chicago that you had in Atlanta versus that you had?
(21:48):
And it was interesting because I started then deconstructing the makeup of who was there
on the size of the organizations and the culture of the city and the type of industry.
And it really did have an effect and we had this very meaningful dialogue that I didn't
expect about the differences.
And of course you said the role of those individuals in those rooms does in fact make a difference.
(22:12):
So let's just keep having these discussions.
I do some analysis of that.
Someone said that.
Someone said, why don't you upload your notes and say, what's the difference between these
conversations?
So maybe next time we'll say.
Anyway, Calla Hill, charting change in legal.
A privilege as always.
Thank you.
Bye.
Thank you.
[ Silence ]
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