July 17, 2025 • 10 mins
I spoke with Zena Applebaum, the Senior Vice President of Market Development for Harbor, a provider of professional legal services. We discussed the level of adoption of generative AI in the legal industry, how law firm and law department leaders are balancing the excitement of emerging technology with their day-to-day operational needs, and where generative AI is disrupting legal services the most.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to Reinventing Professionals,a podcast hosted by industry analyst
Ari Kaplan, which shares ideas,guidance, and perspectives from market
leaders shaping the next generationof legal and professional services.
(00:22):
This is Ari Kaplan and I'm speakingtoday with Zena Applebaum, the Senior
Vice President of Market Developmentfor Harbor, a provider of consulting and
technology services to the legal industry.
Hi Zena, how are you?
Good, thanks, Ari.
How are you?
I'm well.
I'm looking forward to this conversation.
So tell us about your backgroundand your role at Harbor.
(00:43):
Absolutely.
First of all, thanks for having me andthanks for bringing Harbor onto the show.
I started my legal career responding toRFPs for then Canada's largest law firm.
And continued through my careerreally I'd say starting the idea of
competitive intelligence in law firms.
At the time, 25 ish years ago, nobodywas doing CI in law firms and I really,
(01:07):
pioneered that discipline in law firmsat two of Canada's largest law firms.
And then I moved to Thomson Reuters.
And at Thomson Reuters I was reallyresponsible for market development
of some of our largest products.
First in Canada and thenglobally across the world.
Most recently I brought generative AIin Westlaw and Practical Law to market.
And at that point I startedto realize that I wanted to do
(01:28):
more in the services industry.
I really wanted to help firms and legaldepartments think about the way in which
they go to market with their services,and also how they can be more efficient
with the services that they're providing.
And the role at Harbor came up andHarbor being the preeminent sort
of service provider to the legalindustry was a perfect melding of.
My skills and passion with whatHarbor is doing for the market.
(01:50):
And so that's my role at Harbor.
And it's been a really interestingtime to watch how Harbor as the
distributors of innovation in the legalcommunity are just finding their pace
and just getting started themselvesbeing almost just about two years old.
How would you characterize thestate of innovation in legal today?
(02:11):
Innovation can mean a million differentthings to a million different people.
I do think that generative AIhas taken innovation to mean
putting AI in everything.
And the reality is that AI is there.
AI is part of the story.
I think firms are really innovatingto provide better client service.
I think legal departments areinnovating in the way that they are
getting to their businesses fasterand responding to their businesses
(02:33):
faster, helping to close deals faster.
So I think innovation.
Is ripe in the legal industry,but it can mean a whole bunch of
different things to different people.
But it is a moment where we'reseeing a lot of technology adoption,
which we previously hadn't seen.
We're seeing a lot of processautomation, but more importantly,
an audit of our processes.
(02:54):
The legal industry is recognizing thatsame old isn't working anymore and they're
trying to do things differently, andI think that's a really exciting time.
Where do you see the level ofadoption of generative AI in legal?
It's gonna be different for every firm.
There are firms that are fast thatare, fast into the technology.
(03:15):
There are firms that arelagging a little bit.
There are legal departments that we'retold by their CFOs, everybody needs
to use generative AI and cut theirbottom line by a certain percentage.
So we're seeing different peopleadopt the tools in different way.
In different ways, I should say.
And I would also say we'reseeing different tools being
adopted in different ways.
So we're seeing a lot of peopleusing tools for initial drafting,
(03:39):
whether it's co-pilot or some otherfirm some other firm sponsored tool,
whether it's, co-counsel or Harvey.
We're seeing all of them in the market.
We're also seeing itin research platforms.
We're seeing it in.
Billing in DMS solutions.
So you're really seeing it in awhole bunch of different places.
And I'd say that the adoptioncurve is higher in technologies
(04:03):
where it's embedded and peopledon't have to think twice about it.
Copilot kind of pops up and reminds youthat it's there and it's easy to use.
So we're seeing a lot of that adoptionin those areas, and we're certainly
seeing it in areas that are lower risk.
So more in practice sorry, more in the.
Business operations thanin the practice of law.
But we are seeing it as well in thepractice of law in certain areas as well.
(04:25):
Helping to shape arguments,helping to shape memos, draft
memos, contract analysis.
You're seeing it and the level ofadoption, I think moves with the
firm's general appetite for riskand adoption of new technology.
How are legal teams in law firmsand in law departments balancing the
excitement of emerging technology withtheir day-to-day operational needs?
(04:53):
Operational needs are never gonna go away.
You always have to buy pencils,you always have to buy computers.
So procurement is an area that.
While not fully tech enabled, itcan be certainly tech enabled.
And I think you have to balance thingslike procurement and vendor relations.
You have to manage things likeresearch and intelligence, particularly
on the law firm side where a lotof firms are doing research on
behalf of their in-house clients.
(05:16):
So you're seeing those areasinfluenced heavily by ai.
But then you're also seeing the practiceheavily influenced by ai and I think.
What's interesting is that everybodywants to talk about how the
practice of law is gonna change.
What we aren't talking about but isactually happening in the background is
all these other day-to-day operationsare continuing and continuing at pace,
(05:37):
continuing at scale, and firms generallyare moving faster than they ever have.
Legal departments as well.
Everybody's trying to do morewith less, and one of the ways
you get there is through efficientuse of data and AI tools.
How is generative AIaffecting legal marketing?
(05:58):
Legal marketing tends to be really lowrisk for firms, and so that's a place
where they're investing in the tools.
It's a place where theyrecognize that web content.
Or some of the other content thatthey produce on a regular basis.
Even scraping really of publicdata to feed websites around what
transactions a firm has worked on,what litigation a firm has worked on.
(06:18):
You can scrape the dockets and youcan push it forward to your website.
So there's a lot ofautomation that's happening.
I think there's a lot of automation that'shappening with things like or should
be, could be happening with things likechamber submissions and other directory
submissions that have always been.
Not the most fun part of legal marketing.
A bit tedious at times, and I thinkyou're gonna start to see more of those
(06:40):
tedious activities replaced or at leastaugmented with generative ai, if not
completely changed with generative ai.
I think certainly in some of thecontent production, you're seeing
it the most being used by law firms.
Where is generative AI specificallydisrupting legal services?
(07:04):
It is specifically disruptinglegal services in research
and in contract analysis.
I think those are the two areasthat we're seeing the greatest.
Adoption of the tools.
It's the place that you're seeing peopleleaning in and really using those tools.
We saw Lexus announcedtheir connection to Harvey.
(07:26):
We know that co-counsel andThomson Reuters and Westlaw joined
forces a couple of years ago.
So we're seeing it in thatresearch space because I think
it's something that is tedious.
Legal research is hard and anythingthat you can make it, any way
that you can make it easier.
I think people are leaning in there.
And then in contract analysis,and we're seeing lots of
different organizations pop up.
Many legal tech startups thathave been around forever are
(07:50):
starting to get a resurgence.
And people are recognizing thatyou can take these large amounts.
Of data from within contracts andpull out exactly what you need
at the moment that you need it.
So I think those are the two placeswe're seeing early disruption
and early use of the tools.
What should law firm and legaldepartment leaders be thinking about
(08:12):
now to stay ahead in the next year?
One of the things that they shouldreally be thinking about is talent.
The war on talent is becoming evermore important and ever more pervasive.
I think talent can mean a lot ofdifferent things to different people.
I think a move towards more empathetictalent and being understanding of lawyers,
(08:34):
bringing them whole, their whole selvesto the office is really important.
Even returning to theoffice is very important.
I used to joke that lawyers are peopletoo, and it's not really a joke.
They are people too.
And I think that recognizing.
That your talent is changing the waythey think about technology, the way they
think about process, the way they thinkabout data, quite frankly, is changing.
(08:56):
There's an expectation that, you knowwhat, you all know that everybody
has access to the same data.
And so you really need to leaninto a talent pool that is much
more sophisticated maybe thanprevious generations have been
with respect to technology andwith respect to these tools.
And it's this talent that is reallygoing to help you align your.
(09:17):
Business needs with your client's needsto really create the optimal results for
both your firm or your department, forthose of you that are in house and be
adaptive to ever changing technology.
'cause that is one of thethings we see in the industry.
There's a lot of technology fatigue.
But if you have talent that is adaptableand talent that has a growth mindset
(09:37):
and you encourage that in your firm thenthey'll be able to move beyond the tools
to do the best work for their clientsand to really engender that trust in
their clients, whether again, in-houseclients or external clients as well.
And so I think about talent andthink about investing in the
adaptability of your people.
This is Ari Kaplan speaking with ZenaApplebaum, the Senior Vice President
(10:01):
of Market Development for Harbor, aprovider of consulting and technology
services to the legal industry.
Zena, thank you so much.
Thanks, Ari.
Appreciate being here.
Thank you for listening to theReinventing Professionals Podcast.
Visit reinventing professionals.com orari kaplan advisors.com to learn more.
Welcome to Reinventing Professionals,a podcast hosted by industry analyst
Ari Kaplan, which shares ideas,guidance, and perspectives from market
leaders shaping the next generationof legal and professional services.
(00:22):
This is Ari Kaplan and I'm speakingtoday with Zena Applebaum, the Senior
Vice President of Market Developmentfor Harbor, a provider of consulting and
technology services to the legal industry.
Hi Zena, how are you?
Good, thanks, Ari.
How are you?
I'm well.
I'm looking forward to this conversation.
So tell us about your backgroundand your role at Harbor.
(00:43):
Absolutely.
First of all, thanks for having me andthanks for bringing Harbor onto the show.
I started my legal career responding toRFPs for then Canada's largest law firm.
And continued through my careerreally I'd say starting the idea of
competitive intelligence in law firms.
At the time, 25 ish years ago, nobodywas doing CI in law firms and I really,
(01:07):
pioneered that discipline in law firmsat two of Canada's largest law firms.
And then I moved to Thomson Reuters.
And at Thomson Reuters I was reallyresponsible for market development
of some of our largest products.
First in Canada and thenglobally across the world.
Most recently I brought generative AIin Westlaw and Practical Law to market.
And at that point I startedto realize that I wanted to do
(01:28):
more in the services industry.
I really wanted to help firms and legaldepartments think about the way in which
they go to market with their services,and also how they can be more efficient
with the services that they're providing.
And the role at Harbor came up andHarbor being the preeminent sort
of service provider to the legalindustry was a perfect melding of.
My skills and passion with whatHarbor is doing for the market.
(01:50):
And so that's my role at Harbor.
And it's been a really interestingtime to watch how Harbor as the
distributors of innovation in the legalcommunity are just finding their pace
and just getting started themselvesbeing almost just about two years old.
How would you characterize thestate of innovation in legal today?
(02:11):
Innovation can mean a million differentthings to a million different people.
I do think that generative AIhas taken innovation to mean
putting AI in everything.
And the reality is that AI is there.
AI is part of the story.
I think firms are really innovatingto provide better client service.
I think legal departments areinnovating in the way that they are
getting to their businesses fasterand responding to their businesses
(02:33):
faster, helping to close deals faster.
So I think innovation.
Is ripe in the legal industry,but it can mean a whole bunch of
different things to different people.
But it is a moment where we'reseeing a lot of technology adoption,
which we previously hadn't seen.
We're seeing a lot of processautomation, but more importantly,
an audit of our processes.
(02:54):
The legal industry is recognizing thatsame old isn't working anymore and they're
trying to do things differently, andI think that's a really exciting time.
Where do you see the level ofadoption of generative AI in legal?
It's gonna be different for every firm.
There are firms that are fast thatare, fast into the technology.
(03:15):
There are firms that arelagging a little bit.
There are legal departments that we'retold by their CFOs, everybody needs
to use generative AI and cut theirbottom line by a certain percentage.
So we're seeing different peopleadopt the tools in different way.
In different ways, I should say.
And I would also say we'reseeing different tools being
adopted in different ways.
So we're seeing a lot of peopleusing tools for initial drafting,
(03:39):
whether it's co-pilot or some otherfirm some other firm sponsored tool,
whether it's, co-counsel or Harvey.
We're seeing all of them in the market.
We're also seeing itin research platforms.
We're seeing it in.
Billing in DMS solutions.
So you're really seeing it in awhole bunch of different places.
And I'd say that the adoptioncurve is higher in technologies
(04:03):
where it's embedded and peopledon't have to think twice about it.
Copilot kind of pops up and reminds youthat it's there and it's easy to use.
So we're seeing a lot of that adoptionin those areas, and we're certainly
seeing it in areas that are lower risk.
So more in practice sorry, more in the.
Business operations thanin the practice of law.
But we are seeing it as well in thepractice of law in certain areas as well.
(04:25):
Helping to shape arguments,helping to shape memos, draft
memos, contract analysis.
You're seeing it and the level ofadoption, I think moves with the
firm's general appetite for riskand adoption of new technology.
How are legal teams in law firmsand in law departments balancing the
excitement of emerging technology withtheir day-to-day operational needs?
(04:53):
Operational needs are never gonna go away.
You always have to buy pencils,you always have to buy computers.
So procurement is an area that.
While not fully tech enabled, itcan be certainly tech enabled.
And I think you have to balance thingslike procurement and vendor relations.
You have to manage things likeresearch and intelligence, particularly
on the law firm side where a lotof firms are doing research on
behalf of their in-house clients.
(05:16):
So you're seeing those areasinfluenced heavily by ai.
But then you're also seeing the practiceheavily influenced by ai and I think.
What's interesting is that everybodywants to talk about how the
practice of law is gonna change.
What we aren't talking about but isactually happening in the background is
all these other day-to-day operationsare continuing and continuing at pace,
(05:37):
continuing at scale, and firms generallyare moving faster than they ever have.
Legal departments as well.
Everybody's trying to do morewith less, and one of the ways
you get there is through efficientuse of data and AI tools.
How is generative AIaffecting legal marketing?
(05:58):
Legal marketing tends to be really lowrisk for firms, and so that's a place
where they're investing in the tools.
It's a place where theyrecognize that web content.
Or some of the other content thatthey produce on a regular basis.
Even scraping really of publicdata to feed websites around what
transactions a firm has worked on,what litigation a firm has worked on.
(06:18):
You can scrape the dockets and youcan push it forward to your website.
So there's a lot ofautomation that's happening.
I think there's a lot of automation that'shappening with things like or should
be, could be happening with things likechamber submissions and other directory
submissions that have always been.
Not the most fun part of legal marketing.
A bit tedious at times, and I thinkyou're gonna start to see more of those
(06:40):
tedious activities replaced or at leastaugmented with generative ai, if not
completely changed with generative ai.
I think certainly in some of thecontent production, you're seeing
it the most being used by law firms.
Where is generative AI specificallydisrupting legal services?
(07:04):
It is specifically disruptinglegal services in research
and in contract analysis.
I think those are the two areasthat we're seeing the greatest.
Adoption of the tools.
It's the place that you're seeing peopleleaning in and really using those tools.
We saw Lexus announcedtheir connection to Harvey.
(07:26):
We know that co-counsel andThomson Reuters and Westlaw joined
forces a couple of years ago.
So we're seeing it in thatresearch space because I think
it's something that is tedious.
Legal research is hard and anythingthat you can make it, any way
that you can make it easier.
I think people are leaning in there.
And then in contract analysis,and we're seeing lots of
different organizations pop up.
Many legal tech startups thathave been around forever are
(07:50):
starting to get a resurgence.
And people are recognizing thatyou can take these large amounts.
Of data from within contracts andpull out exactly what you need
at the moment that you need it.
So I think those are the two placeswe're seeing early disruption
and early use of the tools.
What should law firm and legaldepartment leaders be thinking about
(08:12):
now to stay ahead in the next year?
One of the things that they shouldreally be thinking about is talent.
The war on talent is becoming evermore important and ever more pervasive.
I think talent can mean a lot ofdifferent things to different people.
I think a move towards more empathetictalent and being understanding of lawyers,
(08:34):
bringing them whole, their whole selvesto the office is really important.
Even returning to theoffice is very important.
I used to joke that lawyers are peopletoo, and it's not really a joke.
They are people too.
And I think that recognizing.
That your talent is changing the waythey think about technology, the way they
think about process, the way they thinkabout data, quite frankly, is changing.
(08:56):
There's an expectation that, you knowwhat, you all know that everybody
has access to the same data.
And so you really need to leaninto a talent pool that is much
more sophisticated maybe thanprevious generations have been
with respect to technology andwith respect to these tools.
And it's this talent that is reallygoing to help you align your.
(09:17):
Business needs with your client's needsto really create the optimal results for
both your firm or your department, forthose of you that are in house and be
adaptive to ever changing technology.
'cause that is one of thethings we see in the industry.
There's a lot of technology fatigue.
But if you have talent that is adaptableand talent that has a growth mindset
(09:37):
and you encourage that in your firm thenthey'll be able to move beyond the tools
to do the best work for their clientsand to really engender that trust in
their clients, whether again, in-houseclients or external clients as well.
And so I think about talent andthink about investing in the
adaptability of your people.
This is Ari Kaplan speaking with ZenaApplebaum, the Senior Vice President
(10:01):
of Market Development for Harbor, aprovider of consulting and technology
services to the legal industry.
Zena, thank you so much.
Thanks, Ari.
Appreciate being here.
Thank you for listening to theReinventing Professionals Podcast.
Visit reinventing professionals.com orari kaplan advisors.com to learn more.
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