April 14, 2025 • 49 mins
What do you do when trust is shattered, but no one around you seems to take your pain seriously? In today’s deeply honest and hope-filled episode, Leslie sits down with Nick Stumbo, former pastor and Executive Director of Pure Desire Ministries, who opens up about his personal battle with pornography—and the profound impact it had on his wife, his marriage, and his ministry. Nick's story isn’t just one of addiction—it's about healing, honesty, and hope when everything seems lost.
Together, Leslie and Nick dismantle toxic messaging that pressures wives to “just forgive” or “have more sex,” and instead offer a biblical and brain-based path toward real recovery—one that honors both the betrayed and the struggler.
If you or someone you love is silently suffering in a marriage affected by pornography, this episode will remind you: You’re not alone, and your healing matters.
🔑 Key Takeaways: 1. Pornography Is Not Just a “Men’s Issue”—It’s a People Problem
Nick shares eye-opening statistics from Pure Desire’s recent Barna study, showing that over half of practicing Christians admit to viewing pornography, including 40% of Christian women. This isn’t about pointing fingers—it’s about lifting the shame and creating real solutions.
“Porn is not a minor issue. It’s undermining the heartbeat of our marriages and families.”
2. Real Healing Begins When the Struggler Takes Full OwnershipFor 10 years, Nick’s wife forgave his repeated confessions. But healing didn’t begin until Nick recognized the impact of his actions on her heart. It wasn’t enough to try harder—he had to go deeper.
“Her pain wasn’t the problem. My choices were. When I stopped minimizing her hurt and started listening, everything changed.”
3. Rebuilding Trust Requires Consistent Action, Not Just ApologiesNick offers practical examples of what rebuilding trust looked like in his marriage: weekly check-ins, recovery groups, full honesty, and showing—not just saying—change. He emphasizes that wives need to see patterns of safety, not just hear promises.
“Trust is rebuilt when words and actions align over time—not when you demand forgiveness before you’ve earned it.”
4. Churches Must Stop Prioritizing Reconciliation Over HealingLeslie and Nick both challenge churches that urge women to reconcile prematurely, while ignoring their trauma. Healing isn’t about keeping the marriage together at any cost—it’s about helping both people get healthy, whether or not the marriage survives.
“The greatest hope for a reconciled marriage is two healing people—not one healing while the other continues to harm.”
5. Community Is Essential—For Both the Betrayed and the StrugglerNick explains how Pure Desire’s gender-specific recovery groups changed everything for both him and his wife. In community, they found tools, support, and the courage to stop hiding.
“You cannot heal in isolation. We were never meant to carry this alone.”
💌 A Personal InvitationIf you're feeling exhausted, stuck, or unsure if your marriage can survive the devastation of pornography, there is a path forward. Whether you're the one who struggles—or the one who’s been wounded—your healing matters.
👉 Learn more about Pure Desire Ministries and find recovery resources here: puredesire.org 👉 Looking for support for destructive or emotionally abusive relationships? Explore Leslie’s programs here: leslievernick.com
💖 Closing Encouragement
Friend, if you're hanging on by a thread, hear this: God sees your pain. He hears your cries. And He cares deeply about your healing. You don’t have to keep doing the same destructive dance. Whether your spouse is ready or not, you can start getting healthy today. There is hope. There is help. And there is freedom—one courageous step at a time.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Long you want the podcast to be.
And who is your primary audience when you're speaking to people?
So our primary audience are women whose husbands are involved in
porn. We have a large ministry for Christian women in destructive
and abusive marriages.
Porn isn't necessarily an indicator of a destructive or an abusive
marriage, but destructive for sure.
(00:21):
But often through the lying and the gaslighting and the covering
up of the porn,
it becomes abusive as well.
So there's a lot there.
Right. So it'll probably be there.
So probably I won't ask too many questions on the woman
who's involved in porn.
And I really want to talk about the impact on the
marriage. I think that's the biggest audience share that we will
(00:43):
have that will be interested in this podcast.
Yeah. And how long do you go?
So we go between 30 and 45 minutes,
depending on how we go.
Okay. That's all right with you?
Oh, yeah.
I mean,
I'm. I'm here for you,
so I just want to make sure I don't,
you know,
go too long.
If it's supposed to be a short podcast or 30 to
45 is,
you know,
(01:03):
it's a comfort zone.
So that's great.
Okay, good.
Do you have any question,
other questions you want to ask me before we get started?
And. And primarily a Christian audience,
I assume.
Yeah. So,
yeah, so we have a large group of women that we
minister to who have.
I was a former Christian counselor.
I've written eight,
seven books on destructive marriages.
(01:25):
We have about 3,
000 women in our membership who are Christian women who are
identifying as being in destructive relationships from all over the world.
We also do a lot of,
you know,
podcast, Facebook lives,
group coaching programs for women in destructive marriages.
So our primary.
Our primary audience is women.
We have men who sneak on,
who are counselors and also in a destructive relationship.
(01:47):
But our primary audience is women.
Yeah, well,
and I just mean,
do you,
like, if you quote a scripture passage,
do you give background for someone that might not know much
about the Bible and might not be a believer?
Or do you kind of assume the average listener is going
through the context of faith and Christianity?
The average listener has been in the traditional church,
(02:08):
but sometimes I think a Bible passage may be.
Need to be more nuanced.
So I think that scripture has been used inappropriately,
especially against women.
You know,
God hates divorce,
for example,
or, you know,
you just need to,
you know,
keep your marriage together and suffer for Jesus.
Yeah. No matter what.
Those kind of things.
Oh, yeah,
yeah. I can be very conscientious of all of that or
(02:33):
we're well aware of those kind of issues.
So. Yeah,
that's good.
Just helps me think about how I incorporate things or any
assumptions I make in an answer.
Well, I think,
you know,
most of our guests are women,
but I think having a male share their journey as well
as, you know,
I think what I'm really concerned with,
(02:54):
that a lot of the secular as well as Christian organizations
who deal with men and porn is that the reconciliation of
the marriage is the most important thing.
And that's not the most important thing.
That's right.
The healing of the person is the most important thing because
you cannot reconcile a marriage with an unhealthy person or.
Or two unhealthy people.
(03:15):
And so there's often a person who's addicted and there's an
enabler in some ways.
Right. And so how do they both get healthy?
As we like to say,
the greatest hope for a reconciled marriage is two healing people
who are moving in that right direction.
Right. But in the past,
there's been a lot of pressure on women to actually suppress
(03:36):
their own hurt and,
you know,
feelings in order to not disrupt his healing.
You know,
his healing is always more important than anything else.
So I really want to make sure that we're not going
in that direction because I think for a lot of our
women, they've been to lots of intensives or they've been to
places with their husbands,
and they've been,
like, in some ways,
spiritually bullied to,
(03:56):
you know,
listen to the disclosure with no affect to,
you know,
reconcile. Have sex with him because he needs it,
because otherwise he's going to go back to porn.
All of this kind of thing when they're still hurting is
themselves. Yeah,
well, we.
I can tell you from everything you're saying,
Leslie, we sing the same song.
And I think you'll be.
You'll be happy with the way I approach that and the
way our ministry does so.
(04:18):
Well, I'm glad.
And actually,
I did vet that a little bit because I wasn't going
to have you on if you didn't sing the same song.
So. Yeah,
fair enough.
Fair enough.
I think our women have been sung to the other way
as much as they want to hear.
Yeah, absolutely.
So. All right,
let me pray for us before we get started.
All right.
Right, good.
Father God,
I just thank you so much for Nick and his ministry
and his leadership.
(04:38):
In pure desire,
I pray that you would just bless our time together.
That women would hear from a man that they don't deserve
to be treated like a porn star or a porn object,
that they are a person to value and not a body
to use.
And I just pray for Nick and his wisdom in his
ministry to help men really stop objectifying women and to deal
(05:01):
with the hurt and the pain that goes on in their
lives that they would prefer to live in a fantasy life
than in a real life.
And I just pray that you would use our time together
to bring real hope and healing to those who listen.
In Jesus name,
Amen. Amen.
All right,
here we go.
(05:21):
Welcome, everyone.
I am Leslie Vernick.
And today we are diving into a conversation that is long
overdue in many churches,
one that affects countless marriages and often remains hidden in silence
and in shame.
I'm joined by Nick Stumbo,
executive director of Pure Desire Ministries and the author of the
Transformed and the author of the transformative books Setting Us Free
(05:43):
and Safe.
Nick's journey from lead pastor to a national advocate for sexual
integrity is powerful,
not just because of his passion for helping others,
but because he and his wife Michelle,
have lived it.
Their story of confronting addiction,
healing as a couple,
and then watching that healing ripple through an entire congregation is
something every church needs to hear.
(06:05):
Pornography is more accessible than ever,
and its impact on marriages is devastating,
yet many churches still don't know how to address it.
And so today we're going to break that silence.
We'll talk about the real effects of pornography on relationships and
how healing is possible and what steps individuals,
couples, and churches can take to move from secrecy to freedom.
(06:26):
Nick, thanks so much for being here.
Thank you so much for having me on for this conversation.
I really appreciate it.
You know,
you've been remarkably open about your own struggle with pornography while
serving as a pastor.
So could you.
Would you be willing to walk us through how this affected
your marriage with Michelle and what finally led you to seek
some help?
Yeah, absolutely.
(06:47):
I would say I've been remarkably open about it since recovery,
but in.
In struggling,
you know,
we're very secretive and private.
Right. And our story as a couple really began in our
engagement. We both attended a private Christian college in the upper
Midwest and had been encouraged at a college chapel that before
you get married,
you should share everything with your spouse to be.
(07:09):
So that when they say I do,
they know what they're saying I do,
too. And that made sense to me.
I was preparing for the ministry,
you know,
deeply in love with my wife to be and wanted her
to. To have no secrets between us.
And so on a date that night,
you know,
I was like,
let's just go to it that night I shared as well
as I knew how to my sexual history,
(07:30):
which up to that point was just issues with pornography.
I don't mean just like to diminish that,
but to say,
thankfully there were not other partners,
but there were definitely partners of the mind,
right? And all the pornography use.
And I remember my wife that night,
who is very naive to her credit,
saying to me,
well, why don't you just promise me you'll never do those
(07:50):
things again.
And I remember as a 21 year old,
sincere believer in the Lord,
saying, I want to make you that promise,
but I feel like I've made that promise to God,
myself and others before and it has a way of coming
back in.
And so I'm going to try really hard,
but I don't know if I can make that promise.
And what's kind of incredible to me looking back is even
(08:12):
then I was acknowledging this struggle in my life had grown
to the place where I was admitting I did not know
how to manage it on my own.
But I,
and we as a couple,
we didn't know what else to do.
And she loved me and I loved her and she was
willing to get married.
And it was about six months into the marriage that we
had that conversation again,
me coming and saying,
I'm so sorry it happened,
(08:33):
this was the last time,
never again.
And you know,
of course on that first occasion she believed me.
But that pattern continued for the next 10 years in our
marriage of me stumbling back into pornography,
feeling terrible,
confessing her,
forgiving us,
getting through it.
But after 10 years,
as you might imagine,
it had eroded her trust and confidence in me.
(08:56):
And really it was undermining the relationship to a point where
I yet again came and confessed.
And she said,
nick, it's not that I hate you,
but I hate the way this makes me feel.
And because I don't know if it's ever going to change,
I don't know if I can stay around for that much
pain. Incredible honesty on her part.
And it terrified me because I was like,
I did not want to lose my marriage and with it
(09:18):
my kids.
And typically,
if the pastor's wife and kids leave him over pornography use,
he doesn't get to be the pastor much longer.
So everything in life that I cared about was on the
line, but I didn't know what else to do except just
keep trying harder to not do this.
And so we built the wall of boundaries,
like no cell phone,
no Internet,
no tv,
only using the Internet for emails at work and thinking if
(09:41):
we just build that Wall of separation high enough,
maybe we can be safe.
And yet I knew that on the inside,
nothing had changed.
And I lived with this fear that I was just a
moment away from being in the wrong place with the wrong
access and the wrong motivations,
and I might act out again.
And I.
It could cost me my marriage.
But that's the.
The place we were in when we were first introduced to
(10:02):
Pure Desire Ministries,
into their counseling program,
into their groups.
Groups both for me as the one who was struggling,
and also for my wife,
the one who'd been betrayed.
And when we entered into that,
my fear was like,
well, this is just more of the same.
It's going to be more accountability,
more don't do it because it's bad.
And I know all that.
But we quickly found that this was different,
that it was a process much more about what was going
(10:24):
on under the surface of my life.
Why was I reaching out for that behavior?
Why did I continue to go back to what was happening
even in my brain,
that it had codified that process into my thinking,
into my way of doing life?
And as we unpacked all of that with godly counselors that
understood the brain and addiction,
it became a much more transformative process than we ever anticipated.
(10:46):
Not only for my behavior,
but for.
But for our marriage,
our connection,
our intimacy,
and then ultimately the relationships we had with our church.
Because at the end of a one year journey,
with the support of our counselor and my district superintendent and
my elder board,
we shared our story publicly with our church and in that
moment launched simultaneously groups for men and for the betrayed spouses,
(11:10):
which I would say in our story,
we had not intended to do.
We had planned to start the groups for men,
and then eventually my wife was wrapping up her group where
she was attending at another church,
and then she was going to start women's groups.
But after sharing our story,
she had eight or 10 women come up to her and
say, what about us?
We are so hurt.
We're so tired of this.
(11:30):
We don't know what to do.
And I think what they saw in my wife is that
she was hopeful and she seemed like,
we can do this.
And they had no hope.
And so their group started because of that need of women
in our church.
And we just got to watch then over the next five
years, how much this minister to men and women who up
to that point were living in the same kind of silence
(11:50):
that we were,
with nowhere to go for help other than to try harder
on their own or maybe to go privately to counselor.
Now we were a church saying,
we can,
we can deal with this,
we can help,
we can provide that safe environment for men and for women.
And it really transformed our culture,
really, just because we shared our story.
And so that,
you know,
that's a high level overview of,
(12:12):
of our story.
Obviously, all along the way,
things we learned and,
and the nuances of it are,
are profound.
But, yeah,
that's, that's what God did in our story.
What an incredible brave step as the pastor to share that
story. Yeah,
I, yeah,
I appreciate you saying it was brave in the moment.
It is not what I wanted to do.
I try to be clear about that.
(12:32):
You know,
it was actually the founder of Pure Desire Ministries,
Dr. Ted Roberts,
was my counselor.
And he's the one that said,
okay, Nick,
you are ready to share your story with your church.
And my first comment,
I said,
no, I'm not,
because I wanted to just deal with it quietly and move
on and just go about our ministry.
But he said,
nick, if you've struggled with your sincere faith,
(12:54):
your good family background,
and you've struggled,
how much more do you think people in your church might
be struggling?
And if you ignore this issue as the pastor,
they'll ignore it as well.
But if you will tell your story,
it will open the door for other people.
And it was really that encouragement to say,
man, if I keep silent,
I am really keeping that healing from others.
(13:15):
That was enough motivation to face the fears.
And as he said,
some people won't be able to handle it.
They want their pastor on the pedestal.
And when you get real,
they will probably leave.
And to this day,
if that ever happened,
if someone left because I got real,
I never heard about it.
But what we did hear about was the number of couples,
men and women,
who would come up after services when we would share our
(13:37):
story or talk about our groups.
And often with tears in their eyes,
would say,
thank you.
Because if you can tell your story and still be our
pastor, then I know I can tell my story too.
I can face my pain or my behaviors,
and I won't be kicked out or rejected.
I'll be helped,
I'll be supported.
And they were hungry for that.
So it actually,
(13:59):
I never intended this,
but it became a pretty effective church growth strategy because people
that prior,
I think,
had no desire to be at church were suddenly coming,
saying, oh,
this church actually sees me and can help me.
And it created a lot of spiritual growth among our congregation.
Yeah, it just frees people from the shame of whatever their
sin is.
All of us have something,
(14:20):
but especially something like,
pornography is such a shameful thing to talk about out loud.
And it frees you from that shame of,
you know,
there's something really,
really bad about me for doing this,
when in fact,
we're all struggling with something.
And to be able to share that out loud and to
be able to be open with,
I don't.
I don't want to do this,
and yet I do this and what's going on and trying
(14:41):
to be able to figure out the reasons why,
you know,
In a recent Barna study you commissioned revealed some striking statistics
about pornography among Christians,
which statistic was the biggest wake up call for you,
and why a number of things stand out.
You know,
we. We wanted to kind of lift the lid on this
(15:04):
very private topic and say in these last seven years,
because that's the last time significant research had been done was
about 2016.
And since then,
we've all seen such incredible cultural shifts and the rise of
the. The WOKE movement and LGBTQ plus,
and we all live through coven.
It's like,
what has this done to our struggle collectively?
And what we found is that 54% of Christians,
(15:26):
practicing Christians,
that would say their faith is important to them and they
go to church regularly,
54% acknowledge that they view pornography to some degree.
So that was 75% of men and 40% of women who
say, yeah,
me too.
So it's one of the things we're trying to be clear
to say as a ministry is this is not just a
man's problem.
Statistically, more men struggle,
(15:47):
but it's a people problem.
Because when you look at Gen Z,
women, women under the age of 25,
2/3 of them would acknowledge that they're viewing pornography to some
degree. So I think that was eye opening,
just that this is common and we all need to understand
why this is so enslaving or traps people.
But I think that some of the other questions that then
(16:08):
were asked,
one of them in particular that I'll mention,
for those that acknowledge that they view pornography to any degree,
they were asked,
who is helping you avoid pornography?
And 84% of people said,
no one.
No one is helping me.
And to me,
that's so compelling.
And to me,
that's the silver lining,
because churches and faith communities and families can be that place
(16:31):
of support for one another if we understand what that role
looks like.
The other thing I would mention,
maybe in particular for this audience,
there were some pretty striking data points about how differently men
and women experience pornography use in the marriage,
because we were asked if you had a partner that used
pornography. Was this experience positive or negative for you?
(16:52):
And among men,
they said if their partner used pornography,
they viewed it overwhelmingly as positive.
And I think that actually is some of the cultural narrative
of, hey,
this will spice up your sex life.
And maybe in the short run it worked.
And men were like,
well, my wife is more,
you know,
sexually into it,
but. But we see it pure desire that.
That always has a long term negative impact on the relationship.
(17:14):
And I think the response from the women revealed that,
because the women's response to that same question was overwhelmingly negative.
To say this was a very negative thing in our relationship.
But it did reveal to me why maybe churches or communities
struggle with how to deal with this,
because men are maybe stuck in a mindset that says that's
it was kind of a good thing.
Is it that big of a deal when women are overwhelmingly
(17:37):
saying, no,
this was really hurtful?
And are we listening to women's voices enough to hear that
and say,
man, if this is impacting relationships in this way,
we need to do something about it and not just overlook
it. To say,
oh, it's not that big of a deal,
because that big difference between the genders,
that's really interesting.
Nick, what's your experience in working with couples of the deeper
(17:59):
impact of.
Of just not the sexual betrayal,
but what's beyond that in the impact on the marriage?
Yeah, I would start with my own story.
You know,
I think I had bought into some of the narrative of
it's a guy struggle,
all guys struggle.
You know,
I looked at my level of struggle,
if I could put it that way,
and compared to what I was aware of that others were
(18:20):
doing, it's like,
oh, it's not that bad.
It's only once in a while.
And because it was a behavior that existed in my life
before I met my wife,
it was easy for me to believe a lie that said,
well, it's not about her,
it's never been about her.
And if she just understood,
then she wouldn't be so mad.
And our healing really began when I made a realization.
(18:43):
I think this is really God's gift of pain in my
life to start to see it from her point of view.
Because she was telling me all along,
she said,
nick, this feels like you're cheating on me.
This feels like an affair.
And she said,
I know it's different than a physical affair,
but it feels the same to me.
And for 10 years,
I didn't take seriously her emotional response to that because I
(19:06):
thought, oh,
she just doesn't understand.
When the reality is I was the one that didn't understand.
I didn't understand that it wasn't just a choice I was
making, that in a marriage,
it was going to the very fabric of her sense of
worth and value.
In my eyes,
the sincerity of our physical connection and the intimacy we shared,
like, how true was it?
(19:26):
And it was causing her to question all of that in
ways that if I could have seen that in year one
of, like,
okay, when you make this choice,
you undermine the ability for your words.
When you say to your wife,
I love you.
You're beautiful.
Even though you sincerely mean them,
she cannot receive them because of all the baggage that's come
(19:46):
with your pornography use.
And again,
I was blind to that.
But as we walked into healing and I started to listen,
it. It's a humbling moment.
I would say a fairly routine part of the healing cycle
for a married couple is as the struggling spouse,
which more often than not is the man,
when he starts to embrace the level of pain that his
(20:08):
spouse is in,
that's when real healing occurs,
because it gets serious.
You can't deny and minimize and rationalize anymore.
You have to recognize I am willfully making a choice that
is destroying my relationship.
That actually becomes a freeing turning point to say,
then I'm really willing to do whatever it takes to get
that out of our marriage.
(20:29):
And that can be an incredible turning point.
But, yeah,
until someone recognizes the level of distrust,
you know,
the way so many people have said it so well,
is that the person I should be able to trust most
is the one who has the capacity to hurt me most
deeply. And when we're engaged in something like pornography or other
(20:50):
compulsive behaviors,
it hits,
I think,
at the very core of who we are.
I mean,
it's Genesis 1 and 2,
right? That in his image,
God created them,
male and female.
And as the couple,
Adam and Eve,
come together in their perfect unbrokenness,
there's a physical sexual intimacy that is unbroken until sin enters
in. And then what happens?
(21:10):
It immediately divides them.
They have to be clothed,
covered up,
separated from God and one another.
Something about our sexuality goes to the very core of who
we are.
And that's just what I've seen in relationships and in marriages,
that when there is misalignment or dysfunction or sin happening at
that level,
it negatively impacts everything else.
(21:31):
And on the positive side,
when we begin to deal with that and we really get
healthier when we move in the direction of health,
it can positively impact everything else in a good way as
well. You know,
One of the things that you said,
Nick, that I think is so important,
and I don't want to have our audience miss this is.
You said that once you understood.
(21:52):
So for 10 years,
your wife was saying,
I don't like this.
Obviously she was saying,
this is bothering me.
This is hurting me.
You know,
I don't like it for 10 years.
And yet somehow you minimized her pain and excused your situation
in the moment.
Later you felt guilty and you went back and told her.
But. But I think this whole idea of understanding the impact
(22:14):
that you've caused another person,
the pain that you've caused them,
the hurt that you've caused them,
is a key component to.
I don't want to ever do that again.
Whether, you know,
you're screaming at your child and your child is saying,
mommy, you're scaring me,
and you realize that you're really scaring your kid and you
don't want to ever do that again.
So you work on your temper.
But what.
(22:36):
I have two questions about this,
because I think in the past,
a lot of treatment centers for sexual addictions minimized or somehow
tried to numb out the wife's pain,
that somehow she wasn't supposed to express the impact because that
would make him feel worse.
He's already in shame.
He's already feeling horrible.
He's already in treatment.
(22:57):
Why would you keep bringing up your pain?
So can't you just put this in the past and forgive
and forget and,
you know,
clean slate theology kind of thing?
And so you're saying that your awareness of her pain was
a big motivator of.
I don't want her to have to keep feeling that.
What helped you wake up to that?
For 10 years she was saying,
Ouch. For 10 years she was saying,
(23:19):
I don't like this.
So what was it that really got you to hear that
the final time?
You know,
there's a number of factors that come to mind.
I think part of it,
like I mentioned it,
was. It was God's gift of helping me become aware of
that and really coming to the end of myself in our
story. And I know this isn't the case in every marriage.
(23:40):
I would say I was sincerely doing what I knew how
to do,
to change.
And so that actually was part of maybe the minimization of
it, that feeling,
what more can I do?
And when you've done all you can do and you realize
it's not enough,
there is some brokenness of I can't fix this.
Which actually,
again, was a starting point of healing and recovery to.
(24:02):
To be willing to say,
I can't fix this on my own.
I need help outside of myself.
Because part of that answer,
too, came through the counseling journey.
It came through my wife being able to articulate in her
impact letter and some of the tools that we used to
really say in a way that maybe got through my defenses
(24:22):
or my rationalizing structures that had been there for a whole
lot of reasons that was deeply impactful.
I think I'm trying to think back to the moments of
like, man,
because that's.
It's a very valid question.
She wasn't saying maybe anything new than what I'd heard in
year one.
But what maybe was different is I,
(24:43):
like I said,
I, I stopped believing that I could fix it by myself,
and I had to then accept her reality.
And, and that's what we talk about that a lot at
pure desire that sometimes the struggling spouse is resistant because to
accept the other spouse's reality carries with it a whole load
of implications of the work I'm going to need to do.
(25:06):
And if we're being honest,
that scares us about how much work it will take.
And so it's human nature to try to go the easier
route of like,
oh, you're just blowing it out of proportion.
You don't understand,
but we need those wake up calls.
And if I would also maybe say an answer to your
question, if I knew consistently how to create that wake up
call in the lives of men who deal with pornography,
(25:29):
man, we could see the church change a whole lot faster
than we are.
I mean,
as we talked about the stats,
already 54% of all Christians,
men and women,
say, yeah,
I look at porn to some degree.
Partly that's happening because culturally we are stuck in a place
of minimizing,
rationalizing, and denying how significant this is.
And so for any one of us to come to that
(25:49):
realization is to kind of break away from some of the
social milieu that we're stuck in.
And so maybe on a larger scale,
to answer your question is,
man, that's something we're all trying to ask together.
How, as churches,
how, as faith communities,
do we elevate this conversation to say,
this isn't just a minor peripheral issue,
this is undermining the heartbeat of our marriages.
(26:11):
And if we don't deal with it,
we're going to keep seeing the devastation that happens.
Church, let's wake up and do something about this.
Because if churches are consistently giving that message to say to
men, hey,
this will destroy your marriage,
at least it could increase the likelihood that a guy earlier
on takes it serious and says,
well, I don't want that to happen.
(26:32):
I want to deal with it now.
And that's what I'm so grateful for at Pure Desire now
is seeing the number of young men that come in when
they're engaged saying,
I don't want to take this into my marriage.
I want to get healthy now.
And all the other men in the group who are married
say, I wish I could have done it like you are.
We're so glad you're here because that really is the time
to deal with it.
(26:52):
Nick, I wonder if the one thing that your wife said
in year 10 that she didn't say in year one that
got your attention in deeper way is,
I don't know if I can continue living like this.
Like year one,
it was like,
okay, I know.
I'm going to pray for you.
Go for it.
You can try harder,
I'll try harder,
all of that.
By year 10,
she was plumb worn out.
(27:13):
And she said,
I don't know if I want to continue.
And so the loss of everything,
the consequences,
it wasn't just the impact of her saying this hurt.
It's the impact of,
I don't know that I will continue allowing myself to be
hurt like this year after year got your attention.
I think you're spot on.
(27:33):
I know in that initial year journey,
one of the things we talked about a lot is how
significant it was that my wife really found her voice and
I really learned to listen to it,
that her opinions mattered,
her feelings mattered.
And I'm not in any way excusing this,
but I had kind of grown up in a traditional church
culture that,
you know,
man's the head of the home and what he's doing is
(27:54):
the priority and the wife and children are there to support
that. And there was a lot of.
Even though there's a thread of biblical truth in there,
there's a whole lot of other stuff that's anything but biblical
that I think kept me blind to her real needs and
had in year one,
she had that support.
You know,
it's one of the reasons at Pure Desire we say it's
(28:15):
so important for a wife or a betrayed spouse to have
group and support around them because their recovery needs are very
different than the struggler.
And part of what my wife found was the ability to
speak up about what she was okay with and what she
wasn't. And if I wasn't willing to partner with her in
that, that there were going to need to be consequences,
not for her to punish me,
(28:36):
but for her to find safety,
for her to find emotional recovery,
for her to get what she needed.
It's like,
if you're going to keep making that choice,
here's what I will need.
And that is again,
one of those tools that creates for me the amplified awareness
of, oh,
this will cost me something.
And had we had those tools at year one or had
she had them,
(28:57):
I think that could have become the motivation for change much
earlier. But we didn't know.
And we would both say this,
we just didn't know any other way.
He's going to try harder.
I'm going to do my best to forgive him.
Let's keep going.
And then you're right.
After 10 years,
it was like,
this just isn't working and it's not changing.
And that's the time.
A lot of couples do end up with us at pure
(29:17):
desire going,
we don't know what else to do.
A friend told us about pure desire.
Can you help us?
And now we're trying to reverse engineer to say,
what if those couples at year one or year two or
an engagement heard,
this doesn't have to be a part of your marriage.
Let's get you going much,
much sooner.
So, yeah,
that's a great observation and I think too,
as far as educating the church,
(29:39):
can the church be more supportive of not protecting the sanctity
of marriage over the safety and sanity of the people in
the marriage?
Right. So in year one,
had someone gone to their pastor,
there would have been a lot of counsel.
Well, forgive,
forget, put it up with it.
You know,
he's going to try harder.
It would have been that counsel,
because God hates divor.
(29:59):
But what if in year one,
the church said,
hey, this is going to break apart your marriage if this
continues, this is going to break apart your marriage and we're
going to have to.
This is serious.
You're going to die.
Your marriage is going to die if you don't deal with
it. That's why I think we're really adamant about equipping and
training pastors and churches to understand the two sides that if
(30:20):
there's addiction or even just ongoing compulsive behavior,
there's typically another side of betrayal and the need for a
hurting spouse to understand why this isn't about her.
You know,
that's some of the beauty of what we learned in that
first year,
that my choices over time had created patterns of thinking in
my brain that as my wife learned about it,
(30:42):
see, oh,
there is no level of sexual availableness that can fix my
spouse because it's not even about sex.
It's dysfunction in the way he views himself and pain from
his past and ways of medicating that pain that I'm not
the answer for.
And, and you're,
you're exactly right.
Because if a church is educated,
what I would say to maybe anyone who's in leadership listening
(31:03):
to this,
you don't even have to have like some kind of degree.
I'm, I'm talking about a little bit of education.
Like, one of the groups we partner with is appsats.
And appsats will do a one day training on betrayal trauma
for religious leaders.
And I think the,
the information a pastor would have to go,
oh, I see what we need to do when that spouse
comes, how to not shame them,
(31:24):
but to say to them,
we hear you,
your experience is very real.
And we have a,
we have a plan to help support you,
while we also have a plan to have your spouse do
some of their work.
That would be a game changer for so many couples.
Talk a little bit more about some of the ways pornography
rewires the brain and distorts intimacy.
(31:45):
It's not about sex.
It really isn't.
It's a tool that we use to medicate.
How does it rewire the brain?
For me,
the easiest way to describe it is really to talk about
the reward center in the brain.
And I always like to tell people when we start talking
about the brain,
we're not leaving faith behind or God behind.
We're talking about how God made our brains to work and
(32:07):
then how sin or Satan can hijack God's good intention,
which is what he always does.
CS Lewis said it well that Satan can't create anything.
He can only pervert what God created.
And so the way God designed your brain to work is
there's a reward center that causes you to gravitate towards what
feels good and to avoid what feels painful.
Makes sense.
And we see it in our children.
(32:27):
Day one,
like something feels good,
tastes good,
they want more of it.
Well, the payoff of acting out sexually hits the reward center
in a way that is on level,
on par with what happens when someone's taking cocaine.
It is that powerful,
it's that strong.
And because of that,
when the brain finds something that feels good,
(32:48):
it actually starts to restructure the neural network of the brain
to both anticipate receiving that same hit again and to increase
the likelihood that you'll walk down that pathway.
And so when you talk about a person who's been viewing
Internet pornography for 15,
20, 30 years of that Same reward circuit being fired off
(33:10):
and being receiving the climax of all the dopamine and the
feel good chemicals,
it doesn't matter more.
So here's the other thing we know about the brain,
that the moral center of your brain and the reward center
of your brain don't really communicate very well at all.
And the one,
because the reward center is much more deeply integrated into your
survival brain,
your limbic system,
(33:32):
it can so easily overpower and physically shut off your thinking
brain, which is where so much of your morality exists,
that at that moment you're not able to think morally.
And I realize when I say that for some listeners,
like, whoa,
whoa. So are you saying it's not their fault or they're
not responsible?
No, not at all.
That was part of my journey of embracing.
I made all of the choices that created this pattern in
(33:56):
my brain,
and I have nobody to blame for it except my own
decisions. But it does underscore the level of work I'm going
to need to do to rewire that reward system in my
brain. So when we talk about it from that angle,
if you think about,
well, what if your wife was just giving you more sex?
Well, if in that dysfunction of my reward system and all
(34:16):
the pathways that have been made,
actually her being more available to give me sex might only
reinforce the patterns that I've created of what I go to
and I need to feel good.
And so what we find so often is that things like
pornography use,
much like drug use or alcohol or food addiction or gambling,
have become a response to feeling pain and discomfort in life.
(34:40):
So we might feel something emotional like,
man, I'm really feeling unwanted,
or I'm feeling like a failure.
Some people have learned to reach out and drink alcohol.
Others have learned that sex or pornography can create that same
fix. So one of the things we like to talk about
quite a lot is that pornography or compulsive sexual behavior is
not your problem.
(35:01):
It's actually your pseudo solution to much deeper problems about where
you go when you're in pain.
And that's why our group journey,
the counseling journey,
is so transformational,
because you actually get into that deeper stuff along with addressing
the behaviors.
Because the goal isn't just to change the behavior.
The goal is to change the way you do life.
(35:21):
And when you learn to do life differently,
then your behaviors become a natural outflow of doing life differently.
So I hope that's not too much of a deep dive
into the brain.
But I think it underscores why this goes deeper than just
a sex problem.
It's so much to do with our wiring and what we've
done to feel good and to pursue pleasure in life and
(35:43):
to avoid pain.
Absolutely. Yeah.
Yeah. In your book Safe,
you talk about the importance of community and healing.
And we really believe that here,
too, that we don't believe that we can heal ourselves all
by ourselves.
God has hardwired us to long to belong and to want
to be in community,
safe community.
Yet many people,
(36:03):
especially in church leadership,
fear the shame of disclosure of this kind of thing.
And our women fear the disclosure of saying their husbands are
addicted to porn.
It's just a shameful thing.
And so it's very hard to find community where you can
actually be honest about what's going on.
So. Yeah.
So how did going public.
You already mentioned that your church,
(36:25):
but how did going public affect the recovery longer term now
in your congregation and other congregations?
Yeah. I think of what not only I experienced in group,
but also my wife.
You know,
she was carrying.
And this.
I was blind to this.
She was carrying a heavier load than I was because it
was my secret.
(36:45):
And so if I felt comfortable sharing with a friend or
a mentor a little bit of my secret,
that was my choice.
But she felt like,
I can't tell anybody because Nick is either their pastor or
I don't want to tell my family and all of my
friends are in our church.
I don't want them to think less of my husband,
and what would they think of me?
And so she carried this with her.
(37:06):
And when she first went to group,
and I would say,
much like many betrayed and hurting spouses,
initially she did not understand why she should do a group,
because she's like,
this is his problem.
He should go fix it.
Why do I need group?
She stepped into group and heard other women that were starting
to process their feelings,
their story,
their pain.
And suddenly she realized,
(37:26):
oh, it's not just me.
This isn't a me problem.
Like, this is what it does to women and relationships,
and I can't be beautiful enough or available enough to fix
it. And everything.
She felt that she wondered,
am I the only one?
Now, she wasn't alone.
And as other women,
helped her understand reality,
what was appropriate for her to do and how to respond,
(37:47):
how to have healthy boundaries in our marriage,
how to communicate in a way that conveyed her feelings.
All of that just.
It created such courage in her to say,
man, whether Nick does his work or not,
I know that I can do work to feel okay about
me. And I think that is something our faith communities often
undervalue. Or overlook is how detrimental it is to the mindset
(38:11):
of that betrayed spouse.
Just like you brought up,
yes, there's the shame of someone admitting their behaviors,
but for a betrayed spouse,
I think there might be even more shame of will.
People look at me and think,
well, what's wrong with you?
Or how come you're not more.
Because we do still have this cultural mindset.
Some really bizarre things like,
well, if the cooking is just good enough at home,
they won't go out to the restaurant.
(38:31):
Like, that is such a bizarre thing to say about sexuality.
And to somehow suggest that if I'm good enough,
I can fix your problems,
right? Like,
we wouldn't say that about any other obsessive or compulsive behavior.
Like, no one would ever say if.
If you were just a good enough friend,
your other friend wouldn't do drugs.
Like that.
That's not how recovery works.
(38:52):
And yet in sexuality,
we've kind of done that.
So that.
That's why I think community is so important,
because whether it's betrayed wives or betrayed husbands,
because women can be the.
The addict as well.
Women can have the affair,
and men in betrayal need this as well.
But. But for women that have been betrayed,
it's that community that they learn,
I'm not crazy.
(39:13):
It's not irrational that I feel these things.
Actually, my emotions are completely justified and then can help them
process. What do I do with all that?
Because as.
As I'm sure you've seen,
even when we're betrayed,
we can also react in unhealthy ways,
right? We can let that lead us down negative pathways of
either acting out in revenge or explosive anger that creates greater
(39:35):
problems to deal with.
And I'm not saying those things are maybe unjustified to some
degree. I'm just saying if we don't know how to deal
with our pain,
we might amplify our problems.
And that's the gift of community,
is we have a safe place to actually go with our
pain and get help saying,
what do I do with this?
Because I can't just shove it down.
I can't just act like it doesn't exist.
(39:56):
But I can't also stay here.
If I stay here,
I'm. I'm going to explode.
I'm going to lose my mind.
And they begin to see ways that they can work through
the pain and the anger with the support of others.
And as we've been talking about,
like, at the end of that process,
they're going to be a healthier version of themselves.
And I think that's what we were seeing.
We had a number of women that joined my wives groups
(40:17):
and other groups that started whose husbands were frankly not coming
to church,
didn't really think their porn use was a problem.
But what we watched is just how those wives got healthy
and confident and had hope again.
And eventually quite a few of those husbands ended up in
group as well.
Because when the wife had confidence at home to say,
you know what,
(40:38):
this isn't about me and I'm not going to be pressured
into doing things I don't want to do,
and if you want a relationship with me,
here's expectations I have.
And some of those men weren't responsive,
but many of them were like,
oh, I guess I need help,
you know,
and they'd come to me saying,
well, I guess I need a group.
My wife says,
I need a group and just an encouragement to anyone out
(41:01):
there. It is uncommon that a couple is both ready to
pursue healing at the same time.
I mean,
that would be ideal,
but it is not uncommon at all,
even in our office,
that the person calling for counseling is the betrayed spouse saying,
I don't know where he's at on this,
but I need someone to listen to me.
And as they start to get traction,
(41:21):
very often the health that they're gaining becomes the motive for
the other spouse to go,
oh, I need to start to deal with my stuff.
I couldn't agree with you more.
And I think that's one of the things that we work
with in our audience too,
with women who are in destructive marriages,
whether it's sexual addiction or other kinds of narcissistic,
you know,
(41:42):
discard and all of those kind of things.
Once a spouse starts getting healthier and knows what she will
do and what she won't do and what she'll tolerate and
what she won't tolerate,
it invites her spouse to take a look at themselves and
to see if they want to change.
And many don't,
but some do.
And I think.
But it clarifies things,
doesn't it?
(42:02):
You're not still doing the same old destructive dance that you
did where you're both in an unhealthy place as someone being
the victim and someone being the abuser,
someone being,
you know,
the addict and someone being the enabler,
we're starting a different dance.
And it can start in any direction with the person in
the addiction or the person who's in the married to the
(42:22):
addict or married to the destructive person.
As they begin to get healthier,
they begin to change.
I want to talk a bit with You,
Nick, about how do you rebuild trust when that kind of
trust, you know,
for 10 years you said to your wife,
I'm going to work on this,
I'm going to work on this,
I'm going to work on this.
And then oops,
oops, oops,
I didn't work on this or I didn't succeed.
How do you rebuild trust?
(42:44):
And what does that look like when there's been chronic betrayal?
We had an eye opening moment in our journey,
probably about six months in that I think really drove this
home for me.
It had been the best six months of my life.
I was finding healing freedom,
abstaining from behaviors,
(43:04):
having community with these men.
And yet I was noticing my wife still dealing with a
lot of pain and hurt.
And at one point I was like,
you know,
why aren't you more proud of me because I'm doing so
good. And she said,
well, Nick,
the things you weren't doing,
I couldn't see when you were doing them because it was
all secretive and now I can't see the things that you're
(43:24):
not doing.
So what you're asking me to celebrate are the things I
never saw to begin with.
And it was really eye opening,
like, oh,
and one of the things our counselor said to us,
she, she would say to Michelle,
don't trust his words because she had learned my words didn't
mean much trust.
His actions.
And what was rebuilding trust for us,
and still is to this day,
(43:44):
is when she would see a consistency of my actions.
That I was going to group every week.
I was making and receiving phone calls from group members.
I was taking time to read books on recovery and do
my homework.
And then in terms of our relationship,
I was letting her know more about my schedule.
We were communicating better.
I was being upfront about other areas of my life that
(44:07):
just, I think when you're stuck in a secretive behavior,
you don't realize how familiar covering up or hiding or lying
about other areas of life become.
Because we're just trying to present an image that we think
people want and learning to be honest about my failures and
mistakes, to seek out forgiveness.
She noticed those things like,
oh, oh,
this is different.
(44:27):
This isn't just you trying not to do something.
Like you're engaging with me at a higher level.
You're more attentive to our kids.
You're putting my needs above your own.
You're prioritizing the family and not your own needs.
So it'd be hard to say,
like, we'll just do this one thing and you'll Rebuild trust.
I would say it was the consistency over time that she
(44:47):
saw that my actions backed up my words,
that rebuilt trust.
And she also had we had in place then our recovery
plan that if I relapsed my commitment to tell her and
to take appropriate steps to face that so she didn't have
to keep looking over my shoulder wondering,
are you hiding something?
Not telling something?
(45:08):
Because I was committed to that and routinely checking in with
her to just say,
hey, here's my progress,
here's where I'm at.
And there are a number of great tools out there for
a check in or marriage check in.
There's a Fanos tool we use something called the faster scale.
I could send you notes or links for your show,
but I'm guessing your audience is aware of them.
That just created for us a weekly rhythm where my wife
(45:32):
knew we're going to sit down,
Nick's going to share with me briefly how he's doing.
And I don't have to just constantly wonder because we're going
to have this check in.
And as that weekly check in was backed up by changed
behaviors, it really served to rebuild trust in our relationship.
I couldn't agree with you more.
I think two things we talk about is this self awareness.
(45:55):
So recognizing that you're doing well or not doing well and
sharing that,
or when she gives you feedback,
hey, this doesn't feel like.
It feels like you're not being honest or I'm having some
mistrust here.
And you being able to listen to that is really important.
And her seeing that consistent,
(46:15):
not perfection,
but change in the way that you handle yourself,
the way that you handle her,
and the way that you build new history together and not
keep repeating the old history.
So, so,
so good.
Let's just go back for just the moment of the church.
What could church leaders do to create a bigger culture of
honesty, accountability and support so that couples might feel the freedom
(46:40):
to be more honest in community with one another?
There's two areas that we talk about with churches a lot,
and if either one is lacking,
it's probably not going to work.
And number one is you need to create that culture of
grace where people continue to hear.
Whatever our issues are,
we can bring them to God and one another.
(47:00):
And we're here to help.
We're here to forgive.
We're here to be the community of sinners.
You know,
Dietrich Bonhoeffer was a German theologian who said it so well.
He said,
we've learned how to be together as saints,
but he said,
but have we learned how to be a communion of sinners.
And he said,
because the truth is we are sinners.
And why are we so shocked when someone reveals that they're
a sinner?
(47:21):
So you have to have a culture that just accepts we
are all in need of healing and recovery somewhere.
But if that's all we do,
we're going to just keep people stuck in this pattern of
truth and confession.
But without change,
the other half of the equation is we need to have
competency in resources and tools that actually can lead people to
change and transformation.
(47:42):
And that's why since the beginning of our ministry,
it's always been about creating small group environments with significant resources.
So it's not just a check in accountability group.
No, this is actually a process of identifying our core wounds,
learning where the messages came from and how to invite God
and others into changing and transforming that.
Well, that's a significant group process that then creates competency around
(48:07):
the openness and the grace.
And I think when a church can do that,
when they can both tell stories of,
listen to someone's story of what they had to face in
their life,
and that story includes.
And we walked this journey and throughout the journey,
we had the support of our church and our leadership,
and we're still here today,
then I think people see a pathway that my openness can
(48:29):
actually lead to transformation.
If you don't have openness,
people will never hear about the groups.
But if you don't have a pathway of transformation,
if you just have openness,
that actually can become very painful because there's a lot of
confession without change,
and over time,
that actually really can be hurtful.
So those are the two components we talk about with a
lot of churches.
And then we try to provide a lot of the coaching
(48:50):
on how to make that happen.
I love that.
And I think back when I was first starting to write
some of my books,
Nick, one of my biggest questions as a Christian counselor was
the how to's,
because there was so much push towards transformation,
sanctification, godliness.
But how do you actually get there in practical ways?
And so we do need to give people resources and tools
(49:11):
and accountability and structure and help for dealing with the wounds
that keep us stuck in.
Bad patterns,
dysfunctional behavior,
keep us from being the person that God called us to
be. But we don't just pray that away.
There's some action steps that we have to take.
And having some tools and some structure to take those action
steps can be really,
really helpful.
(49:32):
In closing,
Nick, you've seen,
I'm sure,
a lot of Marriages changed,
you've shared your own.
But can you share a story of a couple that you
worked with that can give hope to someone who's listening today
and saying,
you know,
we're a mess and is there really hope for change?
My husband isn't a pastor,
he's just a regular guy.
Can he really change?
(49:55):
So many stories come to mind.
I think of one couple that was in the southwest and
he was in a military position,
very highly respected role.
And an affair at work came to light and she packed
up the kids and they drove an hour away to her
parents. And in desperation,
(50:16):
he looked at our online map to find out if there
were any groups nearby.
And the closest one was a two hour drive.
And so every Thursday night he'd get in his truck and
he'd drive two hours to go,
be in a two hour meeting and turn around,
drive two hours home.
But he was at that place of desperation of saying,
I don't want to lose my marriage and my kids and
I'm going to do whatever it takes.
(50:37):
And he showed up every week and he did the work
and he stayed patient with his wife of saying,
whatever you need,
however long it takes,
I'll do this as long as it takes for you to
see I'm serious.
And I think it.
It was a couple of months before the kids,
she and the kids came back and they were in a
tenuous place in the home,
but at least they were back in the home and he
(50:59):
kept doing his work.
Then along that time,
she said,
well, I hear there's groups for wives.
I'll start attending.
One hers was online.
So he's driving,
she's going online.
And God just continued to heal and bring them back together
at a place where,
you know,
now six years later,
their major contributors to our ministry and they've since moved and
(51:19):
they are now the voice in their new church of saying,
we know that couples struggle and we know that usually when
they struggle they don't feel safe coming to the church.
But we want to change that.
Could we start groups here?
And so they're a non ministry couple who's now getting to
do significant ministry to other men and women because they're simply
saying, we've been there,
we walk through this experience and we want to lead you
(51:40):
through what God used in our lives.
And they actually spoke at our event last year and she
read a letter to him and called him,
you know,
you're a man of integrity and this is a man who'd
had an affair and cheated on her.
And in their past.
But now she's saying,
when I look at you,
I'm so proud of the man of integrity I married.
(52:03):
And I know not every marriage has a happy ending because
it does take two people that are both willing to do
the hard work.
But we do see stories like that all the time,
that when both commit to that hard work,
God can restore them in ways that are so much better.
You know,
that's what we say a lot.
We're not trying to give you back the marriage you had,
because what you had was probably pretty dysfunctional if the addiction
(52:25):
was coexisting with it.
We want you to have a new,
better marriage.
And we see that happen all the time.
And it's really beautiful.
It is really beautiful when two people are willing to do
the work,
to get healthy and become honest and real and accountable and
have that support and community,
amazing things can happen.
Nick, would you be willing to close us in prayer for
(52:45):
those who are listening and hanging on to hope by a
thread that God is capable of doing more than they could
imagine and just willing that person who's listening,
willing to do their work without forcing the other person in
their marriage to do their work,
just do their work to get healthy and see what God
does. Amen.
Yeah. Let's pray.
(53:06):
Heavenly Father,
I thank you that you are the same God that appeared
to Moses and that when he looked at people that had
been in slavery for a long,
long time,
God, your words were,
I have seen their misery.
I have heard their cries.
I'm aware of their suffering,
and I am coming to rescue.
And that,
(53:26):
God, that is your heart for us in whatever situation we
are in,
you have seen,
you have heard,
you're aware,
and you're coming to rescue.
And, Lord,
we may not always see the way in which that rescue
comes or the way the pathway.
Even for Moses,
he really had to argue with,
what do I need to do?
I don't think I'm able.
God, there may be many spouses feeling like,
(53:48):
I don't know if I can do this,
but, Lord,
I pray you would open up a pathway for them to
take a step towards healing and that whether their situation changes
or not,
believing that you will meet them there,
you will strengthen them,
you encourage them,
and you will give them clarity on their next steps.
And that,
Lord, so often as you work in us,
you do such amazing work through us.
So I pray that you would work in their marriage,
(54:10):
their families,
their churches in line with the healing you're bringing to their
lives. So,
God, I thank you that none of us are alone.
But, Lord,
for where we feel alone,
may we reach out to you,
may we reach out to others,
and may we find strength in the community around us that
you can give us.
So God go before us,
and I just pray that you would open doors of healing
(54:30):
for many,
many people because of this conversation.
And we pray this together in Christ's name,
Amen. Amen.
Thanks so much for being with us.
We'll put those resources in the show notes.
Thanks. All right,
if you can send us those resources,
we probably have them,
but we'll just put them in the show notes for you.
And if you have resources to your programs,
(54:50):
then that would be great.
Yeah. Yeah,
that sounds great.
Thank you,
Leslie, for having me on,
and, yeah,
I appreciate the conversation.
Same. It was nice to meet you.
I think you are acquainted with a friend of mine,
Tabitha Westbrook.
Do you know Tabby?
Yes. Yeah.
Getting to know her a little bit.
Yeah, yeah,
yeah. Good.
She's. She's a great gal.
Yeah. That's awesome.
(55:12):
All right,
well, remember that.
All right,
great. Great to meet you.
Take care.
God bless.
All right,
same. We'll see you.
Bye.
Long you want the podcast to be.
And who is your primary audience when you're speaking to people?
So our primary audience are women whose husbands are involved in
porn. We have a large ministry for Christian women in destructive
and abusive marriages.
Porn isn't necessarily an indicator of a destructive or an abusive
marriage, but destructive for sure.
(00:21):
But often through the lying and the gaslighting and the covering
up of the porn,
it becomes abusive as well.
So there's a lot there.
Right. So it'll probably be there.
So probably I won't ask too many questions on the woman
who's involved in porn.
And I really want to talk about the impact on the
marriage. I think that's the biggest audience share that we will
(00:43):
have that will be interested in this podcast.
Yeah. And how long do you go?
So we go between 30 and 45 minutes,
depending on how we go.
Okay. That's all right with you?
Oh, yeah.
I mean,
I'm. I'm here for you,
so I just want to make sure I don't,
you know,
go too long.
If it's supposed to be a short podcast or 30 to
45 is,
you know,
(01:03):
it's a comfort zone.
So that's great.
Okay, good.
Do you have any question,
other questions you want to ask me before we get started?
And. And primarily a Christian audience,
I assume.
Yeah. So,
yeah, so we have a large group of women that we
minister to who have.
I was a former Christian counselor.
I've written eight,
seven books on destructive marriages.
(01:25):
We have about 3,
000 women in our membership who are Christian women who are
identifying as being in destructive relationships from all over the world.
We also do a lot of,
you know,
podcast, Facebook lives,
group coaching programs for women in destructive marriages.
So our primary.
Our primary audience is women.
We have men who sneak on,
who are counselors and also in a destructive relationship.
(01:47):
But our primary audience is women.
Yeah, well,
and I just mean,
do you,
like, if you quote a scripture passage,
do you give background for someone that might not know much
about the Bible and might not be a believer?
Or do you kind of assume the average listener is going
through the context of faith and Christianity?
The average listener has been in the traditional church,
(02:08):
but sometimes I think a Bible passage may be.
Need to be more nuanced.
So I think that scripture has been used inappropriately,
especially against women.
You know,
God hates divorce,
for example,
or, you know,
you just need to,
you know,
keep your marriage together and suffer for Jesus.
Yeah. No matter what.
Those kind of things.
Oh, yeah,
yeah. I can be very conscientious of all of that or
(02:33):
we're well aware of those kind of issues.
So. Yeah,
that's good.
Just helps me think about how I incorporate things or any
assumptions I make in an answer.
Well, I think,
you know,
most of our guests are women,
but I think having a male share their journey as well
as, you know,
I think what I'm really concerned with,
(02:54):
that a lot of the secular as well as Christian organizations
who deal with men and porn is that the reconciliation of
the marriage is the most important thing.
And that's not the most important thing.
That's right.
The healing of the person is the most important thing because
you cannot reconcile a marriage with an unhealthy person or.
Or two unhealthy people.
(03:15):
And so there's often a person who's addicted and there's an
enabler in some ways.
Right. And so how do they both get healthy?
As we like to say,
the greatest hope for a reconciled marriage is two healing people
who are moving in that right direction.
Right. But in the past,
there's been a lot of pressure on women to actually suppress
(03:36):
their own hurt and,
you know,
feelings in order to not disrupt his healing.
You know,
his healing is always more important than anything else.
So I really want to make sure that we're not going
in that direction because I think for a lot of our
women, they've been to lots of intensives or they've been to
places with their husbands,
and they've been,
like, in some ways,
spiritually bullied to,
(03:56):
you know,
listen to the disclosure with no affect to,
you know,
reconcile. Have sex with him because he needs it,
because otherwise he's going to go back to porn.
All of this kind of thing when they're still hurting is
themselves. Yeah,
well, we.
I can tell you from everything you're saying,
Leslie, we sing the same song.
And I think you'll be.
You'll be happy with the way I approach that and the
way our ministry does so.
(04:18):
Well, I'm glad.
And actually,
I did vet that a little bit because I wasn't going
to have you on if you didn't sing the same song.
So. Yeah,
fair enough.
Fair enough.
I think our women have been sung to the other way
as much as they want to hear.
Yeah, absolutely.
So. All right,
let me pray for us before we get started.
All right.
Right, good.
Father God,
I just thank you so much for Nick and his ministry
and his leadership.
(04:38):
In pure desire,
I pray that you would just bless our time together.
That women would hear from a man that they don't deserve
to be treated like a porn star or a porn object,
that they are a person to value and not a body
to use.
And I just pray for Nick and his wisdom in his
ministry to help men really stop objectifying women and to deal
(05:01):
with the hurt and the pain that goes on in their
lives that they would prefer to live in a fantasy life
than in a real life.
And I just pray that you would use our time together
to bring real hope and healing to those who listen.
In Jesus name,
Amen. Amen.
All right,
here we go.
(05:21):
Welcome, everyone.
I am Leslie Vernick.
And today we are diving into a conversation that is long
overdue in many churches,
one that affects countless marriages and often remains hidden in silence
and in shame.
I'm joined by Nick Stumbo,
executive director of Pure Desire Ministries and the author of the
Transformed and the author of the transformative books Setting Us Free
(05:43):
and Safe.
Nick's journey from lead pastor to a national advocate for sexual
integrity is powerful,
not just because of his passion for helping others,
but because he and his wife Michelle,
have lived it.
Their story of confronting addiction,
healing as a couple,
and then watching that healing ripple through an entire congregation is
something every church needs to hear.
(06:05):
Pornography is more accessible than ever,
and its impact on marriages is devastating,
yet many churches still don't know how to address it.
And so today we're going to break that silence.
We'll talk about the real effects of pornography on relationships and
how healing is possible and what steps individuals,
couples, and churches can take to move from secrecy to freedom.
(06:26):
Nick, thanks so much for being here.
Thank you so much for having me on for this conversation.
I really appreciate it.
You know,
you've been remarkably open about your own struggle with pornography while
serving as a pastor.
So could you.
Would you be willing to walk us through how this affected
your marriage with Michelle and what finally led you to seek
some help?
Yeah, absolutely.
(06:47):
I would say I've been remarkably open about it since recovery,
but in.
In struggling,
you know,
we're very secretive and private.
Right. And our story as a couple really began in our
engagement. We both attended a private Christian college in the upper
Midwest and had been encouraged at a college chapel that before
you get married,
you should share everything with your spouse to be.
(07:09):
So that when they say I do,
they know what they're saying I do,
too. And that made sense to me.
I was preparing for the ministry,
you know,
deeply in love with my wife to be and wanted her
to. To have no secrets between us.
And so on a date that night,
you know,
I was like,
let's just go to it that night I shared as well
as I knew how to my sexual history,
(07:30):
which up to that point was just issues with pornography.
I don't mean just like to diminish that,
but to say,
thankfully there were not other partners,
but there were definitely partners of the mind,
right? And all the pornography use.
And I remember my wife that night,
who is very naive to her credit,
saying to me,
well, why don't you just promise me you'll never do those
(07:50):
things again.
And I remember as a 21 year old,
sincere believer in the Lord,
saying, I want to make you that promise,
but I feel like I've made that promise to God,
myself and others before and it has a way of coming
back in.
And so I'm going to try really hard,
but I don't know if I can make that promise.
And what's kind of incredible to me looking back is even
(08:12):
then I was acknowledging this struggle in my life had grown
to the place where I was admitting I did not know
how to manage it on my own.
But I,
and we as a couple,
we didn't know what else to do.
And she loved me and I loved her and she was
willing to get married.
And it was about six months into the marriage that we
had that conversation again,
me coming and saying,
I'm so sorry it happened,
(08:33):
this was the last time,
never again.
And you know,
of course on that first occasion she believed me.
But that pattern continued for the next 10 years in our
marriage of me stumbling back into pornography,
feeling terrible,
confessing her,
forgiving us,
getting through it.
But after 10 years,
as you might imagine,
it had eroded her trust and confidence in me.
(08:56):
And really it was undermining the relationship to a point where
I yet again came and confessed.
And she said,
nick, it's not that I hate you,
but I hate the way this makes me feel.
And because I don't know if it's ever going to change,
I don't know if I can stay around for that much
pain. Incredible honesty on her part.
And it terrified me because I was like,
I did not want to lose my marriage and with it
(09:18):
my kids.
And typically,
if the pastor's wife and kids leave him over pornography use,
he doesn't get to be the pastor much longer.
So everything in life that I cared about was on the
line, but I didn't know what else to do except just
keep trying harder to not do this.
And so we built the wall of boundaries,
like no cell phone,
no Internet,
no tv,
only using the Internet for emails at work and thinking if
(09:41):
we just build that Wall of separation high enough,
maybe we can be safe.
And yet I knew that on the inside,
nothing had changed.
And I lived with this fear that I was just a
moment away from being in the wrong place with the wrong
access and the wrong motivations,
and I might act out again.
And I.
It could cost me my marriage.
But that's the.
The place we were in when we were first introduced to
(10:02):
Pure Desire Ministries,
into their counseling program,
into their groups.
Groups both for me as the one who was struggling,
and also for my wife,
the one who'd been betrayed.
And when we entered into that,
my fear was like,
well, this is just more of the same.
It's going to be more accountability,
more don't do it because it's bad.
And I know all that.
But we quickly found that this was different,
that it was a process much more about what was going
(10:24):
on under the surface of my life.
Why was I reaching out for that behavior?
Why did I continue to go back to what was happening
even in my brain,
that it had codified that process into my thinking,
into my way of doing life?
And as we unpacked all of that with godly counselors that
understood the brain and addiction,
it became a much more transformative process than we ever anticipated.
(10:46):
Not only for my behavior,
but for.
But for our marriage,
our connection,
our intimacy,
and then ultimately the relationships we had with our church.
Because at the end of a one year journey,
with the support of our counselor and my district superintendent and
my elder board,
we shared our story publicly with our church and in that
moment launched simultaneously groups for men and for the betrayed spouses,
(11:10):
which I would say in our story,
we had not intended to do.
We had planned to start the groups for men,
and then eventually my wife was wrapping up her group where
she was attending at another church,
and then she was going to start women's groups.
But after sharing our story,
she had eight or 10 women come up to her and
say, what about us?
We are so hurt.
We're so tired of this.
(11:30):
We don't know what to do.
And I think what they saw in my wife is that
she was hopeful and she seemed like,
we can do this.
And they had no hope.
And so their group started because of that need of women
in our church.
And we just got to watch then over the next five
years, how much this minister to men and women who up
to that point were living in the same kind of silence
(11:50):
that we were,
with nowhere to go for help other than to try harder
on their own or maybe to go privately to counselor.
Now we were a church saying,
we can,
we can deal with this,
we can help,
we can provide that safe environment for men and for women.
And it really transformed our culture,
really, just because we shared our story.
And so that,
you know,
that's a high level overview of,
(12:12):
of our story.
Obviously, all along the way,
things we learned and,
and the nuances of it are,
are profound.
But, yeah,
that's, that's what God did in our story.
What an incredible brave step as the pastor to share that
story. Yeah,
I, yeah,
I appreciate you saying it was brave in the moment.
It is not what I wanted to do.
I try to be clear about that.
(12:32):
You know,
it was actually the founder of Pure Desire Ministries,
Dr. Ted Roberts,
was my counselor.
And he's the one that said,
okay, Nick,
you are ready to share your story with your church.
And my first comment,
I said,
no, I'm not,
because I wanted to just deal with it quietly and move
on and just go about our ministry.
But he said,
nick, if you've struggled with your sincere faith,
(12:54):
your good family background,
and you've struggled,
how much more do you think people in your church might
be struggling?
And if you ignore this issue as the pastor,
they'll ignore it as well.
But if you will tell your story,
it will open the door for other people.
And it was really that encouragement to say,
man, if I keep silent,
I am really keeping that healing from others.
(13:15):
That was enough motivation to face the fears.
And as he said,
some people won't be able to handle it.
They want their pastor on the pedestal.
And when you get real,
they will probably leave.
And to this day,
if that ever happened,
if someone left because I got real,
I never heard about it.
But what we did hear about was the number of couples,
men and women,
who would come up after services when we would share our
(13:37):
story or talk about our groups.
And often with tears in their eyes,
would say,
thank you.
Because if you can tell your story and still be our
pastor, then I know I can tell my story too.
I can face my pain or my behaviors,
and I won't be kicked out or rejected.
I'll be helped,
I'll be supported.
And they were hungry for that.
So it actually,
(13:59):
I never intended this,
but it became a pretty effective church growth strategy because people
that prior,
I think,
had no desire to be at church were suddenly coming,
saying, oh,
this church actually sees me and can help me.
And it created a lot of spiritual growth among our congregation.
Yeah, it just frees people from the shame of whatever their
sin is.
All of us have something,
(14:20):
but especially something like,
pornography is such a shameful thing to talk about out loud.
And it frees you from that shame of,
you know,
there's something really,
really bad about me for doing this,
when in fact,
we're all struggling with something.
And to be able to share that out loud and to
be able to be open with,
I don't.
I don't want to do this,
and yet I do this and what's going on and trying
(14:41):
to be able to figure out the reasons why,
you know,
In a recent Barna study you commissioned revealed some striking statistics
about pornography among Christians,
which statistic was the biggest wake up call for you,
and why a number of things stand out.
You know,
we. We wanted to kind of lift the lid on this
(15:04):
very private topic and say in these last seven years,
because that's the last time significant research had been done was
about 2016.
And since then,
we've all seen such incredible cultural shifts and the rise of
the. The WOKE movement and LGBTQ plus,
and we all live through coven.
It's like,
what has this done to our struggle collectively?
And what we found is that 54% of Christians,
(15:26):
practicing Christians,
that would say their faith is important to them and they
go to church regularly,
54% acknowledge that they view pornography to some degree.
So that was 75% of men and 40% of women who
say, yeah,
me too.
So it's one of the things we're trying to be clear
to say as a ministry is this is not just a
man's problem.
Statistically, more men struggle,
(15:47):
but it's a people problem.
Because when you look at Gen Z,
women, women under the age of 25,
2/3 of them would acknowledge that they're viewing pornography to some
degree. So I think that was eye opening,
just that this is common and we all need to understand
why this is so enslaving or traps people.
But I think that some of the other questions that then
(16:08):
were asked,
one of them in particular that I'll mention,
for those that acknowledge that they view pornography to any degree,
they were asked,
who is helping you avoid pornography?
And 84% of people said,
no one.
No one is helping me.
And to me,
that's so compelling.
And to me,
that's the silver lining,
because churches and faith communities and families can be that place
(16:31):
of support for one another if we understand what that role
looks like.
The other thing I would mention,
maybe in particular for this audience,
there were some pretty striking data points about how differently men
and women experience pornography use in the marriage,
because we were asked if you had a partner that used
pornography. Was this experience positive or negative for you?
(16:52):
And among men,
they said if their partner used pornography,
they viewed it overwhelmingly as positive.
And I think that actually is some of the cultural narrative
of, hey,
this will spice up your sex life.
And maybe in the short run it worked.
And men were like,
well, my wife is more,
you know,
sexually into it,
but. But we see it pure desire that.
That always has a long term negative impact on the relationship.
(17:14):
And I think the response from the women revealed that,
because the women's response to that same question was overwhelmingly negative.
To say this was a very negative thing in our relationship.
But it did reveal to me why maybe churches or communities
struggle with how to deal with this,
because men are maybe stuck in a mindset that says that's
it was kind of a good thing.
Is it that big of a deal when women are overwhelmingly
(17:37):
saying, no,
this was really hurtful?
And are we listening to women's voices enough to hear that
and say,
man, if this is impacting relationships in this way,
we need to do something about it and not just overlook
it. To say,
oh, it's not that big of a deal,
because that big difference between the genders,
that's really interesting.
Nick, what's your experience in working with couples of the deeper
(17:59):
impact of.
Of just not the sexual betrayal,
but what's beyond that in the impact on the marriage?
Yeah, I would start with my own story.
You know,
I think I had bought into some of the narrative of
it's a guy struggle,
all guys struggle.
You know,
I looked at my level of struggle,
if I could put it that way,
and compared to what I was aware of that others were
(18:20):
doing, it's like,
oh, it's not that bad.
It's only once in a while.
And because it was a behavior that existed in my life
before I met my wife,
it was easy for me to believe a lie that said,
well, it's not about her,
it's never been about her.
And if she just understood,
then she wouldn't be so mad.
And our healing really began when I made a realization.
(18:43):
I think this is really God's gift of pain in my
life to start to see it from her point of view.
Because she was telling me all along,
she said,
nick, this feels like you're cheating on me.
This feels like an affair.
And she said,
I know it's different than a physical affair,
but it feels the same to me.
And for 10 years,
I didn't take seriously her emotional response to that because I
(19:06):
thought, oh,
she just doesn't understand.
When the reality is I was the one that didn't understand.
I didn't understand that it wasn't just a choice I was
making, that in a marriage,
it was going to the very fabric of her sense of
worth and value.
In my eyes,
the sincerity of our physical connection and the intimacy we shared,
like, how true was it?
(19:26):
And it was causing her to question all of that in
ways that if I could have seen that in year one
of, like,
okay, when you make this choice,
you undermine the ability for your words.
When you say to your wife,
I love you.
You're beautiful.
Even though you sincerely mean them,
she cannot receive them because of all the baggage that's come
(19:46):
with your pornography use.
And again,
I was blind to that.
But as we walked into healing and I started to listen,
it. It's a humbling moment.
I would say a fairly routine part of the healing cycle
for a married couple is as the struggling spouse,
which more often than not is the man,
when he starts to embrace the level of pain that his
(20:08):
spouse is in,
that's when real healing occurs,
because it gets serious.
You can't deny and minimize and rationalize anymore.
You have to recognize I am willfully making a choice that
is destroying my relationship.
That actually becomes a freeing turning point to say,
then I'm really willing to do whatever it takes to get
that out of our marriage.
(20:29):
And that can be an incredible turning point.
But, yeah,
until someone recognizes the level of distrust,
you know,
the way so many people have said it so well,
is that the person I should be able to trust most
is the one who has the capacity to hurt me most
deeply. And when we're engaged in something like pornography or other
(20:50):
compulsive behaviors,
it hits,
I think,
at the very core of who we are.
I mean,
it's Genesis 1 and 2,
right? That in his image,
God created them,
male and female.
And as the couple,
Adam and Eve,
come together in their perfect unbrokenness,
there's a physical sexual intimacy that is unbroken until sin enters
in. And then what happens?
(21:10):
It immediately divides them.
They have to be clothed,
covered up,
separated from God and one another.
Something about our sexuality goes to the very core of who
we are.
And that's just what I've seen in relationships and in marriages,
that when there is misalignment or dysfunction or sin happening at
that level,
it negatively impacts everything else.
(21:31):
And on the positive side,
when we begin to deal with that and we really get
healthier when we move in the direction of health,
it can positively impact everything else in a good way as
well. You know,
One of the things that you said,
Nick, that I think is so important,
and I don't want to have our audience miss this is.
You said that once you understood.
(21:52):
So for 10 years,
your wife was saying,
I don't like this.
Obviously she was saying,
this is bothering me.
This is hurting me.
You know,
I don't like it for 10 years.
And yet somehow you minimized her pain and excused your situation
in the moment.
Later you felt guilty and you went back and told her.
But. But I think this whole idea of understanding the impact
(22:14):
that you've caused another person,
the pain that you've caused them,
the hurt that you've caused them,
is a key component to.
I don't want to ever do that again.
Whether, you know,
you're screaming at your child and your child is saying,
mommy, you're scaring me,
and you realize that you're really scaring your kid and you
don't want to ever do that again.
So you work on your temper.
But what.
(22:36):
I have two questions about this,
because I think in the past,
a lot of treatment centers for sexual addictions minimized or somehow
tried to numb out the wife's pain,
that somehow she wasn't supposed to express the impact because that
would make him feel worse.
He's already in shame.
He's already feeling horrible.
He's already in treatment.
(22:57):
Why would you keep bringing up your pain?
So can't you just put this in the past and forgive
and forget and,
you know,
clean slate theology kind of thing?
And so you're saying that your awareness of her pain was
a big motivator of.
I don't want her to have to keep feeling that.
What helped you wake up to that?
For 10 years she was saying,
Ouch. For 10 years she was saying,
(23:19):
I don't like this.
So what was it that really got you to hear that
the final time?
You know,
there's a number of factors that come to mind.
I think part of it,
like I mentioned it,
was. It was God's gift of helping me become aware of
that and really coming to the end of myself in our
story. And I know this isn't the case in every marriage.
(23:40):
I would say I was sincerely doing what I knew how
to do,
to change.
And so that actually was part of maybe the minimization of
it, that feeling,
what more can I do?
And when you've done all you can do and you realize
it's not enough,
there is some brokenness of I can't fix this.
Which actually,
again, was a starting point of healing and recovery to.
(24:02):
To be willing to say,
I can't fix this on my own.
I need help outside of myself.
Because part of that answer,
too, came through the counseling journey.
It came through my wife being able to articulate in her
impact letter and some of the tools that we used to
really say in a way that maybe got through my defenses
(24:22):
or my rationalizing structures that had been there for a whole
lot of reasons that was deeply impactful.
I think I'm trying to think back to the moments of
like, man,
because that's.
It's a very valid question.
She wasn't saying maybe anything new than what I'd heard in
year one.
But what maybe was different is I,
(24:43):
like I said,
I, I stopped believing that I could fix it by myself,
and I had to then accept her reality.
And, and that's what we talk about that a lot at
pure desire that sometimes the struggling spouse is resistant because to
accept the other spouse's reality carries with it a whole load
of implications of the work I'm going to need to do.
(25:06):
And if we're being honest,
that scares us about how much work it will take.
And so it's human nature to try to go the easier
route of like,
oh, you're just blowing it out of proportion.
You don't understand,
but we need those wake up calls.
And if I would also maybe say an answer to your
question, if I knew consistently how to create that wake up
call in the lives of men who deal with pornography,
(25:29):
man, we could see the church change a whole lot faster
than we are.
I mean,
as we talked about the stats,
already 54% of all Christians,
men and women,
say, yeah,
I look at porn to some degree.
Partly that's happening because culturally we are stuck in a place
of minimizing,
rationalizing, and denying how significant this is.
And so for any one of us to come to that
(25:49):
realization is to kind of break away from some of the
social milieu that we're stuck in.
And so maybe on a larger scale,
to answer your question is,
man, that's something we're all trying to ask together.
How, as churches,
how, as faith communities,
do we elevate this conversation to say,
this isn't just a minor peripheral issue,
this is undermining the heartbeat of our marriages.
(26:11):
And if we don't deal with it,
we're going to keep seeing the devastation that happens.
Church, let's wake up and do something about this.
Because if churches are consistently giving that message to say to
men, hey,
this will destroy your marriage,
at least it could increase the likelihood that a guy earlier
on takes it serious and says,
well, I don't want that to happen.
(26:32):
I want to deal with it now.
And that's what I'm so grateful for at Pure Desire now
is seeing the number of young men that come in when
they're engaged saying,
I don't want to take this into my marriage.
I want to get healthy now.
And all the other men in the group who are married
say, I wish I could have done it like you are.
We're so glad you're here because that really is the time
to deal with it.
(26:52):
Nick, I wonder if the one thing that your wife said
in year 10 that she didn't say in year one that
got your attention in deeper way is,
I don't know if I can continue living like this.
Like year one,
it was like,
okay, I know.
I'm going to pray for you.
Go for it.
You can try harder,
I'll try harder,
all of that.
By year 10,
she was plumb worn out.
(27:13):
And she said,
I don't know if I want to continue.
And so the loss of everything,
the consequences,
it wasn't just the impact of her saying this hurt.
It's the impact of,
I don't know that I will continue allowing myself to be
hurt like this year after year got your attention.
I think you're spot on.
(27:33):
I know in that initial year journey,
one of the things we talked about a lot is how
significant it was that my wife really found her voice and
I really learned to listen to it,
that her opinions mattered,
her feelings mattered.
And I'm not in any way excusing this,
but I had kind of grown up in a traditional church
culture that,
you know,
man's the head of the home and what he's doing is
(27:54):
the priority and the wife and children are there to support
that. And there was a lot of.
Even though there's a thread of biblical truth in there,
there's a whole lot of other stuff that's anything but biblical
that I think kept me blind to her real needs and
had in year one,
she had that support.
You know,
it's one of the reasons at Pure Desire we say it's
(28:15):
so important for a wife or a betrayed spouse to have
group and support around them because their recovery needs are very
different than the struggler.
And part of what my wife found was the ability to
speak up about what she was okay with and what she
wasn't. And if I wasn't willing to partner with her in
that, that there were going to need to be consequences,
not for her to punish me,
(28:36):
but for her to find safety,
for her to find emotional recovery,
for her to get what she needed.
It's like,
if you're going to keep making that choice,
here's what I will need.
And that is again,
one of those tools that creates for me the amplified awareness
of, oh,
this will cost me something.
And had we had those tools at year one or had
she had them,
(28:57):
I think that could have become the motivation for change much
earlier. But we didn't know.
And we would both say this,
we just didn't know any other way.
He's going to try harder.
I'm going to do my best to forgive him.
Let's keep going.
And then you're right.
After 10 years,
it was like,
this just isn't working and it's not changing.
And that's the time.
A lot of couples do end up with us at pure
(29:17):
desire going,
we don't know what else to do.
A friend told us about pure desire.
Can you help us?
And now we're trying to reverse engineer to say,
what if those couples at year one or year two or
an engagement heard,
this doesn't have to be a part of your marriage.
Let's get you going much,
much sooner.
So, yeah,
that's a great observation and I think too,
as far as educating the church,
(29:39):
can the church be more supportive of not protecting the sanctity
of marriage over the safety and sanity of the people in
the marriage?
Right. So in year one,
had someone gone to their pastor,
there would have been a lot of counsel.
Well, forgive,
forget, put it up with it.
You know,
he's going to try harder.
It would have been that counsel,
because God hates divor.
(29:59):
But what if in year one,
the church said,
hey, this is going to break apart your marriage if this
continues, this is going to break apart your marriage and we're
going to have to.
This is serious.
You're going to die.
Your marriage is going to die if you don't deal with
it. That's why I think we're really adamant about equipping and
training pastors and churches to understand the two sides that if
(30:20):
there's addiction or even just ongoing compulsive behavior,
there's typically another side of betrayal and the need for a
hurting spouse to understand why this isn't about her.
You know,
that's some of the beauty of what we learned in that
first year,
that my choices over time had created patterns of thinking in
my brain that as my wife learned about it,
(30:42):
see, oh,
there is no level of sexual availableness that can fix my
spouse because it's not even about sex.
It's dysfunction in the way he views himself and pain from
his past and ways of medicating that pain that I'm not
the answer for.
And, and you're,
you're exactly right.
Because if a church is educated,
what I would say to maybe anyone who's in leadership listening
(31:03):
to this,
you don't even have to have like some kind of degree.
I'm, I'm talking about a little bit of education.
Like, one of the groups we partner with is appsats.
And appsats will do a one day training on betrayal trauma
for religious leaders.
And I think the,
the information a pastor would have to go,
oh, I see what we need to do when that spouse
comes, how to not shame them,
(31:24):
but to say to them,
we hear you,
your experience is very real.
And we have a,
we have a plan to help support you,
while we also have a plan to have your spouse do
some of their work.
That would be a game changer for so many couples.
Talk a little bit more about some of the ways pornography
rewires the brain and distorts intimacy.
(31:45):
It's not about sex.
It really isn't.
It's a tool that we use to medicate.
How does it rewire the brain?
For me,
the easiest way to describe it is really to talk about
the reward center in the brain.
And I always like to tell people when we start talking
about the brain,
we're not leaving faith behind or God behind.
We're talking about how God made our brains to work and
(32:07):
then how sin or Satan can hijack God's good intention,
which is what he always does.
CS Lewis said it well that Satan can't create anything.
He can only pervert what God created.
And so the way God designed your brain to work is
there's a reward center that causes you to gravitate towards what
feels good and to avoid what feels painful.
Makes sense.
And we see it in our children.
(32:27):
Day one,
like something feels good,
tastes good,
they want more of it.
Well, the payoff of acting out sexually hits the reward center
in a way that is on level,
on par with what happens when someone's taking cocaine.
It is that powerful,
it's that strong.
And because of that,
when the brain finds something that feels good,
(32:48):
it actually starts to restructure the neural network of the brain
to both anticipate receiving that same hit again and to increase
the likelihood that you'll walk down that pathway.
And so when you talk about a person who's been viewing
Internet pornography for 15,
20, 30 years of that Same reward circuit being fired off
(33:10):
and being receiving the climax of all the dopamine and the
feel good chemicals,
it doesn't matter more.
So here's the other thing we know about the brain,
that the moral center of your brain and the reward center
of your brain don't really communicate very well at all.
And the one,
because the reward center is much more deeply integrated into your
survival brain,
your limbic system,
(33:32):
it can so easily overpower and physically shut off your thinking
brain, which is where so much of your morality exists,
that at that moment you're not able to think morally.
And I realize when I say that for some listeners,
like, whoa,
whoa. So are you saying it's not their fault or they're
not responsible?
No, not at all.
That was part of my journey of embracing.
I made all of the choices that created this pattern in
(33:56):
my brain,
and I have nobody to blame for it except my own
decisions. But it does underscore the level of work I'm going
to need to do to rewire that reward system in my
brain. So when we talk about it from that angle,
if you think about,
well, what if your wife was just giving you more sex?
Well, if in that dysfunction of my reward system and all
(34:16):
the pathways that have been made,
actually her being more available to give me sex might only
reinforce the patterns that I've created of what I go to
and I need to feel good.
And so what we find so often is that things like
pornography use,
much like drug use or alcohol or food addiction or gambling,
have become a response to feeling pain and discomfort in life.
(34:40):
So we might feel something emotional like,
man, I'm really feeling unwanted,
or I'm feeling like a failure.
Some people have learned to reach out and drink alcohol.
Others have learned that sex or pornography can create that same
fix. So one of the things we like to talk about
quite a lot is that pornography or compulsive sexual behavior is
not your problem.
(35:01):
It's actually your pseudo solution to much deeper problems about where
you go when you're in pain.
And that's why our group journey,
the counseling journey,
is so transformational,
because you actually get into that deeper stuff along with addressing
the behaviors.
Because the goal isn't just to change the behavior.
The goal is to change the way you do life.
(35:21):
And when you learn to do life differently,
then your behaviors become a natural outflow of doing life differently.
So I hope that's not too much of a deep dive
into the brain.
But I think it underscores why this goes deeper than just
a sex problem.
It's so much to do with our wiring and what we've
done to feel good and to pursue pleasure in life and
(35:43):
to avoid pain.
Absolutely. Yeah.
Yeah. In your book Safe,
you talk about the importance of community and healing.
And we really believe that here,
too, that we don't believe that we can heal ourselves all
by ourselves.
God has hardwired us to long to belong and to want
to be in community,
safe community.
Yet many people,
(36:03):
especially in church leadership,
fear the shame of disclosure of this kind of thing.
And our women fear the disclosure of saying their husbands are
addicted to porn.
It's just a shameful thing.
And so it's very hard to find community where you can
actually be honest about what's going on.
So. Yeah.
So how did going public.
You already mentioned that your church,
(36:25):
but how did going public affect the recovery longer term now
in your congregation and other congregations?
Yeah. I think of what not only I experienced in group,
but also my wife.
You know,
she was carrying.
And this.
I was blind to this.
She was carrying a heavier load than I was because it
was my secret.
(36:45):
And so if I felt comfortable sharing with a friend or
a mentor a little bit of my secret,
that was my choice.
But she felt like,
I can't tell anybody because Nick is either their pastor or
I don't want to tell my family and all of my
friends are in our church.
I don't want them to think less of my husband,
and what would they think of me?
And so she carried this with her.
(37:06):
And when she first went to group,
and I would say,
much like many betrayed and hurting spouses,
initially she did not understand why she should do a group,
because she's like,
this is his problem.
He should go fix it.
Why do I need group?
She stepped into group and heard other women that were starting
to process their feelings,
their story,
their pain.
And suddenly she realized,
(37:26):
oh, it's not just me.
This isn't a me problem.
Like, this is what it does to women and relationships,
and I can't be beautiful enough or available enough to fix
it. And everything.
She felt that she wondered,
am I the only one?
Now, she wasn't alone.
And as other women,
helped her understand reality,
what was appropriate for her to do and how to respond,
(37:47):
how to have healthy boundaries in our marriage,
how to communicate in a way that conveyed her feelings.
All of that just.
It created such courage in her to say,
man, whether Nick does his work or not,
I know that I can do work to feel okay about
me. And I think that is something our faith communities often
undervalue. Or overlook is how detrimental it is to the mindset
(38:11):
of that betrayed spouse.
Just like you brought up,
yes, there's the shame of someone admitting their behaviors,
but for a betrayed spouse,
I think there might be even more shame of will.
People look at me and think,
well, what's wrong with you?
Or how come you're not more.
Because we do still have this cultural mindset.
Some really bizarre things like,
well, if the cooking is just good enough at home,
they won't go out to the restaurant.
(38:31):
Like, that is such a bizarre thing to say about sexuality.
And to somehow suggest that if I'm good enough,
I can fix your problems,
right? Like,
we wouldn't say that about any other obsessive or compulsive behavior.
Like, no one would ever say if.
If you were just a good enough friend,
your other friend wouldn't do drugs.
Like that.
That's not how recovery works.
(38:52):
And yet in sexuality,
we've kind of done that.
So that.
That's why I think community is so important,
because whether it's betrayed wives or betrayed husbands,
because women can be the.
The addict as well.
Women can have the affair,
and men in betrayal need this as well.
But. But for women that have been betrayed,
it's that community that they learn,
I'm not crazy.
(39:13):
It's not irrational that I feel these things.
Actually, my emotions are completely justified and then can help them
process. What do I do with all that?
Because as.
As I'm sure you've seen,
even when we're betrayed,
we can also react in unhealthy ways,
right? We can let that lead us down negative pathways of
either acting out in revenge or explosive anger that creates greater
(39:35):
problems to deal with.
And I'm not saying those things are maybe unjustified to some
degree. I'm just saying if we don't know how to deal
with our pain,
we might amplify our problems.
And that's the gift of community,
is we have a safe place to actually go with our
pain and get help saying,
what do I do with this?
Because I can't just shove it down.
I can't just act like it doesn't exist.
(39:56):
But I can't also stay here.
If I stay here,
I'm. I'm going to explode.
I'm going to lose my mind.
And they begin to see ways that they can work through
the pain and the anger with the support of others.
And as we've been talking about,
like, at the end of that process,
they're going to be a healthier version of themselves.
And I think that's what we were seeing.
We had a number of women that joined my wives groups
(40:17):
and other groups that started whose husbands were frankly not coming
to church,
didn't really think their porn use was a problem.
But what we watched is just how those wives got healthy
and confident and had hope again.
And eventually quite a few of those husbands ended up in
group as well.
Because when the wife had confidence at home to say,
you know what,
(40:38):
this isn't about me and I'm not going to be pressured
into doing things I don't want to do,
and if you want a relationship with me,
here's expectations I have.
And some of those men weren't responsive,
but many of them were like,
oh, I guess I need help,
you know,
and they'd come to me saying,
well, I guess I need a group.
My wife says,
I need a group and just an encouragement to anyone out
(41:01):
there. It is uncommon that a couple is both ready to
pursue healing at the same time.
I mean,
that would be ideal,
but it is not uncommon at all,
even in our office,
that the person calling for counseling is the betrayed spouse saying,
I don't know where he's at on this,
but I need someone to listen to me.
And as they start to get traction,
(41:21):
very often the health that they're gaining becomes the motive for
the other spouse to go,
oh, I need to start to deal with my stuff.
I couldn't agree with you more.
And I think that's one of the things that we work
with in our audience too,
with women who are in destructive marriages,
whether it's sexual addiction or other kinds of narcissistic,
you know,
(41:42):
discard and all of those kind of things.
Once a spouse starts getting healthier and knows what she will
do and what she won't do and what she'll tolerate and
what she won't tolerate,
it invites her spouse to take a look at themselves and
to see if they want to change.
And many don't,
but some do.
And I think.
But it clarifies things,
doesn't it?
(42:02):
You're not still doing the same old destructive dance that you
did where you're both in an unhealthy place as someone being
the victim and someone being the abuser,
someone being,
you know,
the addict and someone being the enabler,
we're starting a different dance.
And it can start in any direction with the person in
the addiction or the person who's in the married to the
(42:22):
addict or married to the destructive person.
As they begin to get healthier,
they begin to change.
I want to talk a bit with You,
Nick, about how do you rebuild trust when that kind of
trust, you know,
for 10 years you said to your wife,
I'm going to work on this,
I'm going to work on this,
I'm going to work on this.
And then oops,
oops, oops,
I didn't work on this or I didn't succeed.
How do you rebuild trust?
(42:44):
And what does that look like when there's been chronic betrayal?
We had an eye opening moment in our journey,
probably about six months in that I think really drove this
home for me.
It had been the best six months of my life.
I was finding healing freedom,
abstaining from behaviors,
(43:04):
having community with these men.
And yet I was noticing my wife still dealing with a
lot of pain and hurt.
And at one point I was like,
you know,
why aren't you more proud of me because I'm doing so
good. And she said,
well, Nick,
the things you weren't doing,
I couldn't see when you were doing them because it was
all secretive and now I can't see the things that you're
(43:24):
not doing.
So what you're asking me to celebrate are the things I
never saw to begin with.
And it was really eye opening,
like, oh,
and one of the things our counselor said to us,
she, she would say to Michelle,
don't trust his words because she had learned my words didn't
mean much trust.
His actions.
And what was rebuilding trust for us,
and still is to this day,
(43:44):
is when she would see a consistency of my actions.
That I was going to group every week.
I was making and receiving phone calls from group members.
I was taking time to read books on recovery and do
my homework.
And then in terms of our relationship,
I was letting her know more about my schedule.
We were communicating better.
I was being upfront about other areas of my life that
(44:07):
just, I think when you're stuck in a secretive behavior,
you don't realize how familiar covering up or hiding or lying
about other areas of life become.
Because we're just trying to present an image that we think
people want and learning to be honest about my failures and
mistakes, to seek out forgiveness.
She noticed those things like,
oh, oh,
this is different.
(44:27):
This isn't just you trying not to do something.
Like you're engaging with me at a higher level.
You're more attentive to our kids.
You're putting my needs above your own.
You're prioritizing the family and not your own needs.
So it'd be hard to say,
like, we'll just do this one thing and you'll Rebuild trust.
I would say it was the consistency over time that she
(44:47):
saw that my actions backed up my words,
that rebuilt trust.
And she also had we had in place then our recovery
plan that if I relapsed my commitment to tell her and
to take appropriate steps to face that so she didn't have
to keep looking over my shoulder wondering,
are you hiding something?
Not telling something?
(45:08):
Because I was committed to that and routinely checking in with
her to just say,
hey, here's my progress,
here's where I'm at.
And there are a number of great tools out there for
a check in or marriage check in.
There's a Fanos tool we use something called the faster scale.
I could send you notes or links for your show,
but I'm guessing your audience is aware of them.
That just created for us a weekly rhythm where my wife
(45:32):
knew we're going to sit down,
Nick's going to share with me briefly how he's doing.
And I don't have to just constantly wonder because we're going
to have this check in.
And as that weekly check in was backed up by changed
behaviors, it really served to rebuild trust in our relationship.
I couldn't agree with you more.
I think two things we talk about is this self awareness.
(45:55):
So recognizing that you're doing well or not doing well and
sharing that,
or when she gives you feedback,
hey, this doesn't feel like.
It feels like you're not being honest or I'm having some
mistrust here.
And you being able to listen to that is really important.
And her seeing that consistent,
(46:15):
not perfection,
but change in the way that you handle yourself,
the way that you handle her,
and the way that you build new history together and not
keep repeating the old history.
So, so,
so good.
Let's just go back for just the moment of the church.
What could church leaders do to create a bigger culture of
honesty, accountability and support so that couples might feel the freedom
(46:40):
to be more honest in community with one another?
There's two areas that we talk about with churches a lot,
and if either one is lacking,
it's probably not going to work.
And number one is you need to create that culture of
grace where people continue to hear.
Whatever our issues are,
we can bring them to God and one another.
(47:00):
And we're here to help.
We're here to forgive.
We're here to be the community of sinners.
You know,
Dietrich Bonhoeffer was a German theologian who said it so well.
He said,
we've learned how to be together as saints,
but he said,
but have we learned how to be a communion of sinners.
And he said,
because the truth is we are sinners.
And why are we so shocked when someone reveals that they're
a sinner?
(47:21):
So you have to have a culture that just accepts we
are all in need of healing and recovery somewhere.
But if that's all we do,
we're going to just keep people stuck in this pattern of
truth and confession.
But without change,
the other half of the equation is we need to have
competency in resources and tools that actually can lead people to
change and transformation.
(47:42):
And that's why since the beginning of our ministry,
it's always been about creating small group environments with significant resources.
So it's not just a check in accountability group.
No, this is actually a process of identifying our core wounds,
learning where the messages came from and how to invite God
and others into changing and transforming that.
Well, that's a significant group process that then creates competency around
(48:07):
the openness and the grace.
And I think when a church can do that,
when they can both tell stories of,
listen to someone's story of what they had to face in
their life,
and that story includes.
And we walked this journey and throughout the journey,
we had the support of our church and our leadership,
and we're still here today,
then I think people see a pathway that my openness can
(48:29):
actually lead to transformation.
If you don't have openness,
people will never hear about the groups.
But if you don't have a pathway of transformation,
if you just have openness,
that actually can become very painful because there's a lot of
confession without change,
and over time,
that actually really can be hurtful.
So those are the two components we talk about with a
lot of churches.
And then we try to provide a lot of the coaching
(48:50):
on how to make that happen.
I love that.
And I think back when I was first starting to write
some of my books,
Nick, one of my biggest questions as a Christian counselor was
the how to's,
because there was so much push towards transformation,
sanctification, godliness.
But how do you actually get there in practical ways?
And so we do need to give people resources and tools
(49:11):
and accountability and structure and help for dealing with the wounds
that keep us stuck in.
Bad patterns,
dysfunctional behavior,
keep us from being the person that God called us to
be. But we don't just pray that away.
There's some action steps that we have to take.
And having some tools and some structure to take those action
steps can be really,
really helpful.
(49:32):
In closing,
Nick, you've seen,
I'm sure,
a lot of Marriages changed,
you've shared your own.
But can you share a story of a couple that you
worked with that can give hope to someone who's listening today
and saying,
you know,
we're a mess and is there really hope for change?
My husband isn't a pastor,
he's just a regular guy.
Can he really change?
(49:55):
So many stories come to mind.
I think of one couple that was in the southwest and
he was in a military position,
very highly respected role.
And an affair at work came to light and she packed
up the kids and they drove an hour away to her
parents. And in desperation,
(50:16):
he looked at our online map to find out if there
were any groups nearby.
And the closest one was a two hour drive.
And so every Thursday night he'd get in his truck and
he'd drive two hours to go,
be in a two hour meeting and turn around,
drive two hours home.
But he was at that place of desperation of saying,
I don't want to lose my marriage and my kids and
I'm going to do whatever it takes.
(50:37):
And he showed up every week and he did the work
and he stayed patient with his wife of saying,
whatever you need,
however long it takes,
I'll do this as long as it takes for you to
see I'm serious.
And I think it.
It was a couple of months before the kids,
she and the kids came back and they were in a
tenuous place in the home,
but at least they were back in the home and he
(50:59):
kept doing his work.
Then along that time,
she said,
well, I hear there's groups for wives.
I'll start attending.
One hers was online.
So he's driving,
she's going online.
And God just continued to heal and bring them back together
at a place where,
you know,
now six years later,
their major contributors to our ministry and they've since moved and
(51:19):
they are now the voice in their new church of saying,
we know that couples struggle and we know that usually when
they struggle they don't feel safe coming to the church.
But we want to change that.
Could we start groups here?
And so they're a non ministry couple who's now getting to
do significant ministry to other men and women because they're simply
saying, we've been there,
we walk through this experience and we want to lead you
(51:40):
through what God used in our lives.
And they actually spoke at our event last year and she
read a letter to him and called him,
you know,
you're a man of integrity and this is a man who'd
had an affair and cheated on her.
And in their past.
But now she's saying,
when I look at you,
I'm so proud of the man of integrity I married.
(52:03):
And I know not every marriage has a happy ending because
it does take two people that are both willing to do
the hard work.
But we do see stories like that all the time,
that when both commit to that hard work,
God can restore them in ways that are so much better.
You know,
that's what we say a lot.
We're not trying to give you back the marriage you had,
because what you had was probably pretty dysfunctional if the addiction
(52:25):
was coexisting with it.
We want you to have a new,
better marriage.
And we see that happen all the time.
And it's really beautiful.
It is really beautiful when two people are willing to do
the work,
to get healthy and become honest and real and accountable and
have that support and community,
amazing things can happen.
Nick, would you be willing to close us in prayer for
(52:45):
those who are listening and hanging on to hope by a
thread that God is capable of doing more than they could
imagine and just willing that person who's listening,
willing to do their work without forcing the other person in
their marriage to do their work,
just do their work to get healthy and see what God
does. Amen.
Yeah. Let's pray.
(53:06):
Heavenly Father,
I thank you that you are the same God that appeared
to Moses and that when he looked at people that had
been in slavery for a long,
long time,
God, your words were,
I have seen their misery.
I have heard their cries.
I'm aware of their suffering,
and I am coming to rescue.
And that,
(53:26):
God, that is your heart for us in whatever situation we
are in,
you have seen,
you have heard,
you're aware,
and you're coming to rescue.
And, Lord,
we may not always see the way in which that rescue
comes or the way the pathway.
Even for Moses,
he really had to argue with,
what do I need to do?
I don't think I'm able.
God, there may be many spouses feeling like,
(53:48):
I don't know if I can do this,
but, Lord,
I pray you would open up a pathway for them to
take a step towards healing and that whether their situation changes
or not,
believing that you will meet them there,
you will strengthen them,
you encourage them,
and you will give them clarity on their next steps.
And that,
Lord, so often as you work in us,
you do such amazing work through us.
So I pray that you would work in their marriage,
(54:10):
their families,
their churches in line with the healing you're bringing to their
lives. So,
God, I thank you that none of us are alone.
But, Lord,
for where we feel alone,
may we reach out to you,
may we reach out to others,
and may we find strength in the community around us that
you can give us.
So God go before us,
and I just pray that you would open doors of healing
(54:30):
for many,
many people because of this conversation.
And we pray this together in Christ's name,
Amen. Amen.
Thanks so much for being with us.
We'll put those resources in the show notes.
Thanks. All right,
if you can send us those resources,
we probably have them,
but we'll just put them in the show notes for you.
And if you have resources to your programs,
(54:50):
then that would be great.
Yeah. Yeah,
that sounds great.
Thank you,
Leslie, for having me on,
and, yeah,
I appreciate the conversation.
Same. It was nice to meet you.
I think you are acquainted with a friend of mine,
Tabitha Westbrook.
Do you know Tabby?
Yes. Yeah.
Getting to know her a little bit.
Yeah, yeah,
yeah. Good.
She's. She's a great gal.
Yeah. That's awesome.
(55:12):
All right,
well, remember that.
All right,
great. Great to meet you.
Take care.
God bless.
All right,
same. We'll see you.
Bye.
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