September 16, 2025 • 56 mins
Welcome to Represent, the queer musical theatre podcast.
My name is Dr. James Lovelock and I'm an academic and a huge musical theatre fan, exploring the representation of all things queer in the musical theatre industry.
Today's guests are the iconic Gracie McGonigal and the extraordinary Ashley Goh, who met during a production of the new musical The Phase at the Vaults Festival.
Since then, Gracie has wowed us with her performances as Lily in Fangirls at the Lyric Hammersmith Theatre, and Ashley has imparted her wisdom as Alex in Babies at the Other Palace.
We discuss the importance of queer spaces, the joys of workshopping, and our hopes for the future of musical theatre.
As always, you can follow us on your favourite podcast platform, and don't forget to share this episode on social media.
Links
Gracie's instagram
Ashley's instagram
James Lovelock's instagram
Represent podcast instagram and website
New Work
Fangirls - website instagram Spotify Apple Music
Babies - website instagram Spotify Apple Music
Shipton: A New British Folk Musical Instagram MT Spotlights
Asian Pirate Musical - website instagram Spotify Apple Music
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You're listening to Represent, the queer musical theatre podcast.
(00:04):
My name is Dr. James Lovelock and I'm an academic and a huge musical theatre fan, exploring
the representation of all things queer in the musical theatre industry.
Today's guests are the iconic Gracie McGonigal and the extraordinary Ashley Goh, who met
during a production of the new musical The Phase at the Vault Festival.
(00:25):
Since then, Gracie has wowed us with her performances as Lily in Fangirls at the Lyric Hammersmith
Theatre, and Ashley has imparted their wisdom as Alex in Babies at the Other Palace.
We discuss the importance of queer spaces, the joys of workshopping, and our hopes for
the future of musical theatre.
(00:46):
As always, you can follow us on your favourite podcast platform, and don't forget to share
this episode on social media.
Let's get started.
Hello everyone, my name's Gracie McGonigal and I use the pronouns she/her.
Hi, I'm Ashley Goe and I use the pronouns they/them.
(01:06):
Excellent.
So, in this series, I've been thinking particularly about what happens when we allow people to
tell their own stories.
And so, hopefully today we're going to talk about some of the projects that you've done,
where that's happened, maybe some of the rooms that you've worked in which have felt particularly
creative, or safe, or whatever that might be, and we'll see where we go.
(01:27):
So, I was going to ask you, first of all, about the musical you did together, which
is The Phase.
So, tell us a little bit about The Phase and your involvement with it and all of that sort
of thing.
Well, I played Rowan, who is also a non-binary character, non-binary trans masc, I think
(01:47):
specifically in the script.
And yeah, it was very, we had five days to work on that, we did have five days to work
on that.
It was a quick turnaround for The Phase.
It was so, it was so joyful, and for that short, like, little run, yeah, it was wonderful.
(02:11):
And they cast it, I think, I think it was social media, wasn't it?
Yeah, they did a reach out on social media, but I knew the writers, or one of the writers,
Meg McGrady, they were at Brit, my school, when I was there, a few years above me, and
(02:31):
I thought they were so cool.
I still think they're so cool, but at the time, I was like, yo, they're writing a musical.
Like, it's obviously they're just the coolest thing when you're like 16.
And I remember getting roped in to do their Scratch performance, back in the day when
(02:52):
we were all still sort of geeky, 16 through 18 year olds, and I actually played Sage in
that.
Oh my gosh.
I didn't end up playing Sage in the in the final version.
I played Ava, the ally.
Which is kind of all you need to know about that character.
(03:14):
Hilarious.
But it's been quite a long development, hasn't it?
The Phase it's been and I guess most new musicals do go through that kind of long development.
And you were involved.
Was it at the Vault Festival?
Yes.
Yeah.
We did it.
Yeah.
Which was also great.
Is that still running the Vault Festival?
(03:34):
No, I think they're still looking for a location.
They're looking for a new venue, I think.
That was the last time I heard.
Bring it back.
I know.
It's great, isn't it?
I've seen so many new plays, new musicals there, and it's such a great place to try
out.
Yeah.
Musicals are at the sort of stage of the phase where you can kind of, you know, you can
try it out with a smaller audience in a more intimate space and then hopefully that leads
(03:56):
on to perhaps, you know, further workshops or development or whatever comes next out
of it.
But we are very short of those kind of very sort of small scale and particularly festivals
as well, because that's great because you can just walk to something and then you can
go to something else.
And, you know, it's yeah, it was it was a really or hopefully still is a really great
(04:16):
festival.
Yeah.
I don't know.
I mean, I feel like because I haven't heard about it in a couple of years, it might be
on a little bit of a waiting, waiting for new stuff.
But yeah, I know it's incredibly London centric to say, but we really don't have that accessible
to us in London.
Yeah.
Because everyone's got to pay for everyone to go to Fringe, if that's how you do it.
(04:40):
I know Camden Fringe is starting to build up.
I'm seeing a lot more shows for Camden Fringe.
That's good.
But yeah, it is such a shame because like, honestly, that was actually my first time
at the Vaults.
Yeah, it was mine too.
And it was just such a joyous atmosphere.
The place was wild and so creative, and it was wonderful seeing all of the advertisements
for the different shows.
(05:00):
I'm a big fan of Edinburgh Fringe as well.
So it was it was so joyous.
And we were voted by the ushers as their favourite show.
Because that was when we went to their awards.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that was also really lovely because obviously they're seeing the show every night.
So it was nice to know that they enjoyed it.
And it was good.
We had such a good time.
(05:21):
And it was also a great example of how you can make a space accessible on a budget.
Yeah.
We had such a diverse cast.
It's classic.
Whenever I do any kind of podcast, I'm like, time to talk about disability.
It always should be something to talk about if we're putting on any sort of production,
(05:42):
really.
So what was it that made The Phase particularly accessible or feel like a particularly safe
space?
And what sort of processes did they go through to make everyone feel comfortable?
I mean, a lot of it was down to Meg, I think.
Yeah.
With their background in accessibility and especially for theatre.
I think they've done a lot of work on that at college.
(06:05):
But like just making sure that for every performance, even on a smaller scale, there was ear defenders
available and fidget toys and things to just like and sunglasses, things to help, you know,
the average person coming to see the show, find it just a much more pleasurable experience.
Yes.
And I think also a lot of people who didn't think they would gravitate towards having
(06:27):
that once it was presented to them, were like, oh, actually, these lights are really bright
right now.
I might just calm myself down with an earplug, you know?
Yes.
Yeah, they had a whole cart of like accessibility things, so fidget toys, blankets and things
like that.
Yeah.
And it was not just, we had a relaxed performance.
(06:47):
Yeah, we did.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And again, we only had like six shows, five, six shows.
And that means the most when sometimes you do these long runs and there's one.
And then maybe for one reason or another, it doesn't happen, you know, and everyone's
left there thinking like, oh.
I mean, it's hard as a producer, I mean, I produced a concert a couple of years ago.
(07:10):
And I was really, I made sure that we had a BSL interpreter for that.
But it's hard, you know, on a tight budget, it's not easy to be able to do those things,
but they're so important and should be so central, you know, to including people, including
our audiences, including our actors and our creatives and everything like that.
(07:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love The Phase because there was kind of like a little moment where we had quite a
lot of musicals that were set in in girls schools or setting, you know, and particularly
girls schools because we'd had sort of, you know, Bare and Everybody's Talking About Jamie
and you know, a load of stories, which are great stories, but a load of stories which
are, you know, mostly about men and boys in high school.
(07:54):
And then we had The Prom over in the US, which still hasn't come here and I don't understand
why.
I know, right?
It's so confusing why that hasn't.
Right.
Get me on that.
Exactly.
When that casting call comes out.
Yeah, I can stay young forever.
But it was great because alongside The Prom there was, there was The Phase was being developed
at the same time.
(08:15):
And then we had But I'm a Cheerleader as well.
Yes.
And, and Fangirls, which we'll, we'll get to in a bit as well.
And Babies.
And Babies.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Which is also, yeah.
And there's something I think that's really important about those high school musicals,
I think for everybody, but particularly for those of us that are queer or who know queer
people and, you know, have experienced either as a queer person ourselves or, you know,
(08:39):
trying to navigate our friends through it.
And I wonder what, how you found yourself reflected in those stories, or whether you,
you know, you had audience members who see themselves, you know, reflected in those stories
and what it is that makes those stories such great things to tell in the theatre?
What a good question.
(08:59):
Yes.
I think, well, definitely with The Phase, it was literally my life.
It was so close to my life.
I didn't come out at that time.
But I was very aware of it.
And it was a very similar friendship group.
All of them are queer.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All my friendship.
I went to a girl's school as well.
And it is such an interesting kind of situation to especially put like a trans masculine binary
(09:23):
character into.
And yeah, it was, it was just so truthful.
And it was interesting, because for me, as an actor, it was a little bit hard, because
just because it was real, it was a little bit hard.
And it was also a bit nerve wracking to represent this correctly, even though I lived it, but
I was like, this has to be like, right.
(09:46):
But it was, yeah, it was honestly just joyous to see that.
And like, for my friends as well, my childhood friends, to come and see that as well and
be like, God, that really was us.
Yes.
And I know to us, it feels so common, but I really don't feel like I see it that often.
And I also really appreciate how The Phase really introduced the concept of actually
(10:09):
protest within that show, because I feel like as a queer person, that is, you're either
going to know people who have been to protest, or you're going to go to protest yourself.
And I think it's so important.
It was so great to see how that was integrated into the plot.
Because Meg does protest and is very, very aware of that stuff as well.
(10:29):
And so it was great.
Actually, both of them, because Zoe is also a lawyer, so we had all that law stuff that
was in one of the songs, right?
You and...
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Totally.
It was nice to do something that felt so front-footed with that.
Yeah.
Like, the show didn't happen to the girls.
Like they came through it and took the reins and protest for what they believed in, and
(10:51):
it ended up going well for them, which I think in our times of political unrest, it's good
to sort of take a little bit of that with us that we do have the power to change the
things that we want to change.
Yeah.
But yeah.
It's interesting because I was a secondary school teacher from 2000 until 2011.
Oh, right.
(11:12):
And I wasn't out.
I mean, I was out in every other area of my life, but not as a teacher.
In fact, I was told not to be, which was, I think, out of concern for me rather than
anything else, but still.
But there was no real inkling of very many kids that were queer at school.
There was certainly no Gay Straight Alliance or LGBTQ society or anything like that.
(11:35):
And then once I left, I started to, and I started to be a university lecturer, I started
to hear about people who'd been to schools where actually there were these sorts of,
if they weren't organized, then there was enough queer people who were out to be able
to kind of band together.
And I think also band together with other people who feel othered at school as well.
I think that's another thing that was, that came across really well in The Phase.
(11:59):
Yes.
And that comes across in some of the other high school musicals.
It's interesting to me that The Phase is one of the few that has more than one queer character
because a lot of high school stories are one.
There's always one, isn't it?
There's always one.
Yeah.
Just one.
Just the one.
Just the only one.
And everyone's like, we forgive you.
Which is like...
Frankly, it's one too many.
(12:20):
We had one at school.
We had a Gay Straight Alliance and it was great.
Oh, that's good.
That's good to know because I think Gay Straight Alliance is more common in the US and Canada
than what I've heard.
Which is also just kind of library club, which really, which really does, I feel like, check
out for a lot of people's like high school queer experiences.
Yeah.
(12:41):
I've just been like the kind of quiet person and there's another quiet person there and
you just kind of...
But it was nice.
Like, you know, I went to a very normal school, like a very, London, but still a state school.
Not the poshest, but also not the poorest.
Like it was a real middle, middle of the road.
(13:04):
And actually, we had so many out gay people.
It was random, but also like really pleased.
It makes me so happy that even though schools are still a very difficult place to be queer,
it makes me really happy that people are now in a space where they have other people around
them and they're not going through it on their own.
(13:24):
And again, you know, going back to The Phase, it's one of the things that really stood out
to me was that you had this group who had each other's backs and yes, there were arguments
and conflict because there has to be in a story otherwise there's nothing in the story.
But yeah, that was, I really loved that.
I saw the original version at the Other Palace Theatre, which is another theatre that does
(13:45):
this sort of festival type thing from time to time.
Yeah.
The studio.
Yeah.
The studio in the Other Palace is great.
So good for that.
Yeah.
And so it's been lovely to watch that show develop over time.
And you know, and hopefully it keeps developing because, you know, it takes a very long time
to get a musical to its finished point if it ever gets there, you know.
(14:06):
So yeah.
Yeah.
We kind of just keep evolving them for kind of all of time, don't we?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's often the strength of a show is how it reinvents itself or chooses not to
reinvent itself to reflect the kind of time period that we're in.
If you're interested in LGBTQ+ representation in musical theatre, check out our website
(14:30):
www.queermusicals.com for lots more information about musicals with LGBTQ+ characters.
I think that moves us quite nicely on to Fangirls because Fangirls has had I think three different
productions now.
It's had two in Australia and one in the UK.
(14:53):
And you were part of that, Gracie.
I was!
I was!
It was one of my favourite things that I've seen for a long time.
And that was at the Lyric Hammersmith.
I think that was also a very queer cast, very queer creative team.
And although there were a couple of explicitly queer characters in there, but there was something
(15:15):
about, again, the way that all of those characters banded together.
Do you want to tell us a little bit about Fangirls and a little bit about, again, how
you were involved in that?
Yeah.
So Fangirls, as you say, we did it at the Lyric Hammersmith.
I've been involved with that show for a couple of years because I also workshopped that back
(15:36):
in the day.
And once again, as a different character, I was.
I workshopped it as Brianna, which was, but like, once again, you know, we don't always
get it right the first time, you know, sometimes we have to look at things again and go, Oh,
I actually think maybe a different role would be more suited to me.
(15:57):
But it was a fabulous, a fabulous show.
And I met my partner on that gig as well, which is so nice.
And we both did it two years later, which was cool.
And it's just, I don't know, that was also another really sensitive space.
But the show was awesome and kind of crazy when you say it out loud, because it essentially
(16:18):
follows this 14 year old hyper fan of Harry, no relation to Harry Styles, leave Harry Styles
out of this.
It's not him.
It's just British.
Yeah.
And he's got swoopy hair.
He's from Britain.
And also, he seriously doesn't have a surname, but it is in a band of five.
(16:40):
Which rhymes directly with One Direction, we've got Heartbreak Nation.
Or in Australia, True Connection, which was fun.
But essentially, I won't spoil it in case there's any future iterations across the world.
But some hilarious happenings happen with a sort of group of friends getting a little
too close to a pop star.
(17:02):
Yes.
Yeah.
But it was great fun.
And another just like queer space.
I don't know.
I think I'm really lucky.
I always end up in these queer shows.
I don't know what it is.
Maybe it's because I have like a certain vibe or like, you know what I mean?
It's really niche.
But I find myself very fortunate being in those spaces and sharing those spaces.
(17:25):
Because in my experience, it's always the best place to be.
Yes.
And the happiest places to be.
Yeah.
So yeah.
I was trying to work out what it is about queer spaces that is different to...
I don't want to say straight spaces, because that's like everywhere, but there is something
(17:49):
very particular about working, not every time you work in a queer space, but working in
a queer space, especially when it's quite balanced, when there's, you know, a mixture
of genders, a mixture of people from different ethnic backgrounds, you know, different abilities
or whatever it might be.
And I think it's just an equitable space.
And I think you kind of hit the nail on the head there, in that it just, when you've got
(18:11):
enough different people balancing the void, nobody gets, no one feels uncomfortable, because
everybody's looking out for each other.
And has their affinities with each other and sort of have a greater understanding.
I find those queer spaces to be very perceptive of how we're feeling, how it's going.
(18:34):
Very open to other people's experiences, because, you know, with all those people of different
cultures, they normally have to explain themselves, and be the only person in the room to explain
themselves.
But in a room full of people who are used to that, it's just a genuinely a very safe
space where you can kind of relax, because you're not the only one on that.
(18:57):
And you're also just interested in it, because everyone's so interesting.
Yeah.
It's true.
Yeah.
Which is such a pro.
Yeah.
And everyone's interested about other people being interesting.
So it's yeah, it's not just like a brush off type of thing.
Yeah, you don't have that thing of being like, oh, no, what if everyone finds out who I am?
(19:19):
And everyone's like, okay, yeah, moving on.
Yeah.
It's just a great, it just feels nice.
Yeah, it's nice.
I think things have changed with it as well.
Because I think people have always thought of musical theatre as being, I think, specifically
a gay male space, which I'm not sure how far, I don't know, I mean, I've not been in very
(19:40):
many kind of rehearsal rooms, but I don't know how far that's true.
But certainly gay men have historically had a lot more kind of ability or power to shape
things.
But now we're starting to get all sorts of people involved.
And it changes the dynamics in the room, it changes, you know, how comfortable people
feel in the room.
It's really interesting talking to directors like people like Tania Azevedo and, you know,
(20:06):
who kind of cultivate these spaces.
And I think that's really important for the future of this sort of work that we're talking
about here.
Yeah, for sure.
You know, it often goes right down to the initial casting call out, I find, I feel like
you always have a good, yes, you can always tell, like how it's going to be.
(20:28):
A lot of people who auditioned for Fangirls said it was their favourite audition experience
they'd ever had, you know, regardless of booking the job or not.
Like, a lot of people like, oh, I auditioned for that, I had a great time.
And actually, that's a really, that's so nice, because that often isn't the case.
You know, I know, even within myself, you know, you, you miss a job at the last minute
(20:50):
and you go, oh, like, I hope it flops, no, you don't, you don't do that, just avoid everything
about the show.
No, but you do have, like, you know, a little sadness in your heart being like, oh, like
sad that didn't go my way, or maybe you feel negatively towards it.
But so many people were like, oh, I had such a good time.
(21:13):
And I feel like that is to do with the equitable space.
Yeah.
And the flexibility I feel of the castings to kind of be open to being like, oh, no,
like, this is kind of what we're going for.
Yeah.
Anyone for anything.
Yeah.
Broad strokes.
It's adaptable around you, because I think that that is also a really good way of getting
(21:34):
like very real and genuine stories is to be open, like, oh, yeah, maybe this is this ethnicity
and this culture.
But if you have something different and you want to bring to the table, that's fantastic,
which is also why I love new musicals, because they're so open to adapting things.
Things change all the time.
And during workshops and stuff like that.
Old fashioned rhetoric as well about like, broken and unbroken voices and soprano alto.
(22:01):
Yeah.
You know, all of those kind of things that are just so gendered.
Yeah.
And that's just not true.
It doesn't have to be like that.
Like, you can totally just, everybody sings together.
And, you know, people just sing where their voice is comfortable and you don't have to.
Yeah.
Apply gender to being a bass.
(22:21):
Yeah.
I was thinking about Keisha Lewis in Hell's Kitchen in Broadway at the moment who sings
with this amazing bass voice.
And I don't know whether this story is true, but I believe Keisha Lewis wanted to experiment
with how low her voice could go.
(22:43):
So they were moving the keys around and it ended in this really beautiful, beautiful
place that I don't think any musical theatre writer would go, let's put it there and see
what happens.
No.
Because we have this game of getting higher and higher all the time, don't we?
Oh my God.
We go back to 20 years ago when Defying Gravity was the highest a song could go.
(23:04):
Yeah.
And now it just keeps going and going.
Now The Notebook's here and we're all struggling.
Please.
Please, the acting.
You can still do a good note.
Act out the high note, guys.
You can still do good notes and it's not too high.
That does make me think of your moment in Fangirls, though.
That was awesome.
I will think so.
(23:24):
Back to me.
Why are you talking about that?
There is an amazing moment in Fangirls where you, where your character is riffing and then
realises she's the only one that is riffing and then has to kind of bring the riff back
down gradually.
And that moment, everybody I talk to who's been involved in it or has seen it mentions
(23:48):
that moment because it was just so beautifully controlled.
You know what, actually, when my character didn't really have any lines, I feel like
I didn't say a single word in that, but I was often soloing.
I felt like, yeah, I kind of played, I described my character in that show, Lily, is her name,
(24:12):
is the internet because she kind of just social comments on everything through kind of just
loud noises, like vocal kind of, I don't know, random vocals.
I hope it was great fun, hashtags, screams.
(24:34):
That was also just so fun to sort of play that teenage girl and use my voice and how
I've learned to sort of sing with it now and stretch myself into going into that sort of
Ariana meets Tori Kelly meets rifftastic place and kind of love that they were able to give
(24:57):
that to me.
I mean, the person who played Lily originally, Aisha Madden, is so iconic, like she's unbelievable,
amazing vocal artist.
So it's just so great to sort of pass that to me and go like, oh, my gosh, I get to just
sort of do what I like now, question mark, which is great.
(25:19):
And it comes back to that new musicals thing as well and the creative team being open to
things being done differently.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And that was great as well, because there's so many moments where I was like, hmm, this
is just a scene change here.
And I'm like, guys, I've got an idea.
It's so funny.
(25:40):
We're just talking like, we should reduce the high notes, but also, yeah, it's a clever
plan so other people can't do it.
Never get too comfortable, gang, because there's new grads every year sitting in the notebook.
(26:03):
Oh, yeah.
Oh, my Lord.
I know.
It's too talented these days.
Oh, God, yeah.
Too many facilities available to them.
Me and Babies, most of the cast were like graduates, graduated.
They were, weren't they?
Yeah.
And did you feel old for the first time?
Yes.
Because that's not a word I'd use to describe you.
Right.
(26:24):
You were a youthful person.
I'm a little baby.
You're a baby little bee.
They were more baby than me and babies.
Tell us about Babies, actually.
Full of babies.
Yes.
One little fun little segue, hey.
But yes, Babies is a show about nine-year-elevens who have to take care of these realistic robot
babies for a week.
And I played Alex, who is a non-binary character, in that.
(26:46):
And it was really fun, actually, because we had Alex be the only person who was actually
fine with their life.
Because in our backstory for Alex, Alex came out the year before.
They had a whole time to, you know, come out, tell everyone and be more comfortable with
themselves.
So they are the most chill about having these babies.
(27:08):
Everyone else is about like a 10 in terms of how these babies like really either excitement
or like fear.
And I'm kind of, I was playing someone who was, you know, a rock to everyone else, which
was honestly so joyous.
Yes.
Because the characters are all 16.
And like being when I was that age, I was just I wasn't out at all.
(27:34):
And it was just so nice to kind of have that person who's not panicked about their gender
identity or their sexuality, and to just be kind of a reliable person that other characters
kind of go to.
And I like saying wisdom stuff.
I think there was a line in the second act where literally, I think one of the characters
(27:57):
is like, you're so wise.
And I'm like, yeah.
It appears I am.
And it was just really nice to kind of not be panicked about it and to just like show
just, you know, non-binary joy.
You're so good in Hot Dad.
Hot Dad.
Panic in Hot Dad.
Hot Dad was great.
Actually, yeah, that was the one time I did, I did panic and it's the fact that I'm being
(28:21):
thrown into a musical number.
I was gay panicking in Hot Dad.
It was so good.
Yeah, Hot Dad is, yeah, that was amazing.
It's great to like be in a song called Hot Dad, which is a boyband parody song about
how if you're a dad, everyone suddenly kind of finds you hot.
(28:41):
And it's so great.
And it was such a great one for the audience as well.
Yeah, on our last night, we had a standing ovation after Hot Dad, which was amazing.
I mean, it was that good.
And it was so good.
It's such a banging song.
I think it's won the award before.
I think it won the Stiles and Drewe awards.
Yeah.
Yeah, that was right at the beginning of the development of Babies and it deserves it.
(29:04):
That's the one, you know, when I'm streaming, when I'm streaming the Babies soundtrack, Hot
Dad is on, turned up, when it's giving you the warning, like, this is too loud.
And I'm like, I don't care.
I don't care.
You have to live through Hot Dad.
But yeah, and they were so open.
I mean, like, the person who played Alex before me, Aitch Wiley, who also played Rowan in the
(29:26):
phase before me.
Oh my gosh, of course.
Yeah, yeah.
But yeah, they were so open, Martha Keelan, who wrote and directed Babies.
She's so open to all different types of stories.
And also, like, Alex's storyline actually really changed because we had so many, again,
(29:49):
like different queer identities in that we had two male gay characters and then the other
character Grace, who had like a kind of a flirtation with Alex.
And they were so, they really wanted Alex to kind of not have like a typical romance
story with Grace.
I think initially that there was that.
(30:10):
And then we changed it with every workshop, and then it became something that was kind
of just like its own thing, like, it was kind of a bit more mature, and like, it was kind
of getting together.
But like, it's also just like getting to know two people who are like, also queer.
And they're like, if we're both queer, then I guess we should do, we should like date.
(30:30):
But no, yeah, it was it was interesting, because we also had a typical romance with the two
male gay characters as well.
So it was fun to just see so many, and to have those, like different storylines reflected
in Babies.
And it also isn't what really the show is about.
It's just it's part of it.
Because all of the show is about growing up and maturing too fast.
(30:55):
And seeing what that brings out in people.
And just embracing youth and all of its silliness and fun.
And so it was so lovely to have that be an element and a strong element, but also, there's
so much more to the show as well.
And there's so many different counteracting characters there.
That's just fun.
It was great.
Yeah.
(31:15):
If you want to follow us on social media, you can use queer.musicals on Instagram
or Facebook.
Or you can follow me at DrJamesLovelock on Instagram.
(31:35):
One of the things I've been complaining about on the podcast so far is how few queer characters
there are on the West End at the moment.
In fact, there are no protagonists on the West End since Why Am I So Single closed.
But these conversations and actually some of the other stuff that I've seen recently
is reminding me that actually there is a load of queer musicals or queer plays with music
(31:59):
all over the place.
I went and saw the Ministry of Lesbian Affairs at the Kiln Theatre, which is absolutely wonderful.
And the other one that I loved, which is a similar one, is Miss Myrtle's Garden, which
is at the Bush Theatre, which is a play rather than a musical.
But it has Michael Ahonka-Lindsay and Elander Moore, you know, various people who've done
(32:22):
musical theatre and music is a part of it as well.
And I think it's great that those things are there.
And the important thing for us now, perhaps, is trying to direct people to those shows.
If you're looking for queer characters or you're looking for queer storylines, perhaps
they're not in the West End at the moment, but they are there and we just need to make
sure that we're kind of sharing them with each other, I suppose.
(32:46):
Yeah, that is why I absolutely gravitate towards new musicals, because they are really trying
to push for the diversity of different identities.
And although there is a push there, a lot of the stuff that is going on is stuff that
is pre-existing that they have to adapt, things like that Miss Saigon thing where they changed
(33:07):
it a lot.
But it's also a lot of hoops to go through for things like that.
And it's just like news, there's so many new shows, so many new shows, so many new writers.
And we saw what happened in Operation Mincemeat who, like, you know, they...
What happens when you give a new show a chance, guys.
Yeah.
Like, it is crazy because we know there's so many startups, like, I feel like I've seen
(33:31):
a lot of the Bush recently that is queer and that is interesting, but I don't see it transferring.
I don't see it coming to these sort of bigger venues where there's more funding and there's
more, you know, advertising.
So keep your eyes peeled, gang.
(33:53):
Absolutely keep your eyes peeled.
It's where all the good stuff is happening in new places and fringes and things like
that.
It's incredible.
I mean, again, things like Six was at the fringe for ages before it became really big.
Worth mentioning places like the Southwark Playhouse, King's Head Theatre, you know, there's
a few, the Other Palace we've mentioned as well, there's quite a few theatres that do
(34:16):
do quite a lot of queer shows or, you know, or shows that are not necessarily using pre-existing
stories.
And there's a lot more interesting stuff there.
I was going to ask you about workshopping because Ashley, I know you particularly love
a workshop.
I do love a workshop.
Workshops love me.
So does the Other Palace studio.
(34:38):
Oh my God, I've done five shows there.
That's amazing.
And when Babies went to the Other Palace, my agent was like, hey, guess where Babies
is going?
And I was like, it's the Other Palace.
It's always going to be the Other Palace.
It's the classic.
That was main stage.
That was fun.
But yeah, I was going to ask you about some of your favourite shows that you've workshopped
that maybe you hope will have a future life.
(35:01):
Because actually, if we talk about shows as they're in workshop, because there seems to
be a thing that we don't really talk about things until we think they're ready.
and the reason why I think The Phase was so successful is because it was always being
talked about.
And right from the very first time that they they were putting on Scratch Nights or that
they put it on at the Other Palace for a kind of reading or a workshop performance.
(35:24):
People were talking about it and everyone's looking for it.
Yeah.
So I would love to hear anything about any workshops that you've loved being involved
with and just so we can look out for them.
I did a workshop, my first ever workshop, which I'm still hoping will come back in some
capacity because it was from the team that did Unfortunate, if you know of Unfortunate.
(35:49):
Yes.
Did this show called Shipton that was super cool.
And I have a direct love for it because it was about Mother Shipton, who's this Yorkshire
witch, but who was known for being a disabled character and it's sort of about her life and
like this like really cool story about this real, you know, place that people visit all
(36:12):
the time that I had no idea about.
And the music's great.
It's great.
But I haven't heard about that in a long time.
I hope that hasn't died.
I hope they bring it back, because if you've seen any of Robyn Grant, Tim Gilvin's stuff,
that's really, really high camp and great.
(36:34):
It's always great fun.
I remember seeing Vulvarine as well and Fat Rascal theatre have done some wonderful things.
So good.
Unfortunate was a particular favourite as well.
So funny.
Yeah.
So good.
Yeah.
Last year.
Yeah.
Near the end of last year, I did a show called Asian Pirate Musical, which was so joyous
(36:56):
because it really was intersectionality with like both my Asian identity and queer identity
as well.
I think half of the characters were non-binary because a lot of the writing crew was made
in a very unique way in that it had about five or six writers, both composers and writers
(37:18):
together.
And then working with a mix of like traditional Chinese, well it was a mix of Chinese, whole
like East Asian and Southeast Asian music from like kind of futuristic and traditional.
And a lot of the people on there were queer as well.
And so a lot of characters were like that, like three characters were from the future.
(37:42):
Oh, I should say the plot, because the plot's wild.
So a bunch of Asian pirates from different time periods all get zapped onto one ship
and have to deal with each other.
And also the fact that the planet is dying from global warming.
I love it.
(38:02):
It's wilding.
And also keep an eye on that because something is happening for that, that should be coming
out literally next month, something very exciting.
It was so lovely.
It was just really nice to hang out with a bunch of people who had similar cultures to
mine, but also like different.
Like some people had, you know, like they grew up in Thailand, but then like worked
(38:25):
in Singapore for a bit and then like came to the UK and like a whole bunch of mix of
different people.
And some people who, you know, just grew up in the UK, but they were Asian, you know,
or America and like it was just really interesting to see our similarities, differences, what
we could bring.
And also like there's a great song in the show called Pass the Bok Choy, which is where
(38:51):
all the characters are kind of cooking together and they're socializing and they kind of like
settle themselves.
And it was just really, yeah, it was really lovely to also have that within the rehearsing
of the show.
And I'd done several workshops of that.
And they were, again, like so open to feedback and changing things like plotlines or characters
(39:15):
and driven stuff.
So it was just, yeah, lovely.
And I really, really hope it gets something because that's a show that could really be
so nice for the big budget, like the ship, there's a huge monster in it.
And also the music as well is so atmospheric.
There's some really great, like kind of scary almost things.
(39:38):
And it would also be lovely with the full music as well, because they have, I think,
like a lot of different instruments we used that aren't usually heard on the West End
or on Broadway.
And it was so cool.
It's so cool.
That's always a big thing about workshopping is everybody sat there and like, and then
there'll be this mega guitar riff, just like imagine it, imagine it, and then that'll happen.
(40:04):
I did a cool one this year for Weird, which is the new Nick Butcher musical, who wrote
The Little Big Things, which I also got fortunate enough to do.
And that was, that's so cool.
I don't have any attachment to it at the moment, but I know they're getting a small run, I
(40:26):
think in, I want to say Plymouth, I might be wrong.
But they've definitely got a little showing in, well, a short showing in a big theatre
in January.
But that one is a, the Scottish play, brackets, Macbeth, we're not in a theater, but all the
world's a stage, retelling from the sort of witches point of view.
(40:51):
And that's very like, oh my gosh, it's so good.
One of the most star-studded workshops I've ever done.
Like what do you mean, like Tosh is in it, Jordan Luke Gage is in it, it was fabulous,
Jess Lee was there, Lucy Jones was there, I was shocked.
(41:12):
Because it's so good, like it's fabulous, like it was great, I'm so excited to see what
happens with that, because every song's an earworm.
If there's one thing that they can do, it's write a hook, and that was great fun.
I had great fun workshopping that.
So yeah, hopefully we see more from Weird.
(41:33):
Yeah.
And great as well that Soho Place has opened, because there's that size theater, we don't
have very many of in this country, or we do in the country, but not in London.
And so one of the problems for new musical has been, if you do something at the Other
Palace, and even if you do something on the Other Palace main stage, it's a massive jump
(41:56):
then to go to the next biggest theatre, because there's so few.
And actually, our smaller theatres at the moment, well, I guess, Operation Mincemeat
is in the Fortune Theater, which is one of the smaller theaters, the Arts Theater tends
to have fairly long running things in now.
So it's quite difficult.
It's hard to get that entry.
Yeah, I remember in lockdown, everyone was talking about the queues into these theatres,
(42:21):
you know, that, I don't know, I'm not a producer, but the sort of three or four, five plus,
you know, shows that are queuing up to go in each space, you know, so many shows that
are promised to transfer and it feels like we're all twiddling our thumbs like, yeah,
are they coming?
When?
Where's it gonna be?
You know, we haven't got the spaces.
(42:42):
And I love Soho Place.
I loved working there.
So accessible.
Tick, tick, tick, Nica Burns, you outdid yourself with that.
It's great.
And that was such a cool place for The Little Big Things to go.
And yeah, I'm so sad we haven't seen more from that.
(43:02):
Because I still get messages literally on a daily basis from people being like, that
show meant so much to me.
There's a few fans of that show that contact me all the time to share just about their
lives and how much it still impacts them.
So I'm hoping at some point we'll see more from that, because those stories need to be
(43:25):
told.
This series of Represent has been recorded at the Content is Queen studio in Somerset
House.
Content is Queen is a podcast agency and community made up of women, people of colour and LGBTQIA+
people who wish to connect, create and collaborate using audio and podcasting.
For more information, go to contentisqueen.org.
(43:47):
It seems to be a bit of a trend at the moment that those musicals which are maybe original
stories or stories that haven't been told in other mediums, particularly a lot before.
I'm thinking of Why Am I So Single as well, it had a four or five month run, and was so
important to some people who saw it, you know, and we think, okay, well, where does this
(44:09):
go next and, and what other ways are there for people to experience this?
I mean, one of the things I've been thinking a little bit about is the idea of
archiving and while it's not the same to have videos and videos, this makes me sound like
I'm from the 90s.
No!
We say videos!
To film.
They got the camcorder out.
Rolling!
(44:29):
What do I mean?
But, you know, archive footage and digital footage of shows because there are people
either who see the show once and need to keep seeing that story to heal something perhaps
or to, to see themselves represented, and then there's people that just don't have access
(44:53):
to some of these shows because they're priced out of it.
And it's really big for me is a big conundrum at the moment is how can we make some of the
shows accessible to people who, you know, who aren't able to travel for whatever reason.
No, 100% like the, the National Theatre streaming service is great, but that is subscription
based, you know, which is also in itself a difficult thing because we've all got so many
(45:17):
streaming.
We've all got, you know, it's now statistically, isn't it more expensive than cable TV to have
all the, all the different streaming platforms.
But, I mean, that's a, that's exactly how you do a classy, classy recording of a show.
And a lot of those recordings I find so successful because it feels like you're there, feels
(45:40):
like you're on stage with them, which is great, but as we know, not all shows are getting
the same treatment.
I mean, I know that there's probably things around rights and payments and all that kind
of thing, but I'm sure it's not insurmountable.
But yes, and, and, you know, and again, it's also thinking about how do you get the resources
out there.
(46:00):
So if people want to know more about The Phase, where do they go?
Where do they go to see that?
You know, I think we've been talking about other shows here.
How do people experience those things?
It's hard.
It's a, it's a very boring one, but it's because it's, it all comes down to sort of Equity
rules.
Yes.
You know, in terms of when you film something, does that become a film?
Yes.
(46:21):
Or does it become archival footage?
It's, all of this is so difficult to differentiate, you know, because every, as much as everyone
wants everything to be online and available, especially to young people who want to get
involved, you know.
People still need to be paid for it.
(46:42):
Yeah.
It's like suddenly it's like, Oh, no worries guys, we've just filmed this performance.
It's like, great.
Will you use that for all of time?
Yeah.
How is this going?
You know, we're like, you know, it's hard because like suddenly there's, there's a lot
of stuff with that.
I still don't understand with like point systems and stuff.
When you do like a cast album or recording something on stage and it's like, Oh, you
(47:05):
get three points of that.
I'm like, what's the point?
What's the point?
Like of what?
Of what percentage?
Of how many points are there in total?
There's infinite points.
It's like, when I get, when I get enough, can I send off for a toy?
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
It's totally that kind of thing.
It's very, they don't, they don't teach you that at drama school.
Yeah.
(47:26):
They don't teach you the law stuff.
They don't teach you the law stuff.
They do not.
The best piece of advice I got was like, look up law stuff, look up what Equity is actually
doing.
Yeah.
Because there's so much stuff involved.
And then like, I feel like, yeah, especially with like contracts.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Having the contract not be a mystery to you is a big, is a big pro for a young performer.
(47:47):
Especially if you were like me and sort of, yeah, back in the day, I didn't do three years
of drama training.
Um, so I, no, of course we both did.
We're niche for that.
Yeah.
Most people do.
Um, but, but yeah, I'm, when we both sort of came out in the industry, we were like,
(48:08):
can I, can I work for £4.50 to learn like 3000 shows and you know what I mean?
It's one of those industries that works so much on goodwill, isn't it?
Yeah.
Yeah.
But it can't because it's what, it's what people use to, to live on.
Yeah.
And now I'm a big adult who has to pay rent.
(48:36):
But no, it's, you know, you have to look after yourselves from day one.
Yeah, absolutely.
I've got one more question for you and it's that, it's this, I've asked this question
to everybody is what, what sort of stories would you like to see being told in the future
in musical theatre?
Mine's still quite obvious because there are still like no disabled people in, well there
(48:59):
are, but they're secretly disabled people slash not visible, um, slash not working.
Yeah.
But I would like to see a lot more disabled characters, protagonists, people at the sort
of front of their story.
Yes.
And also a lot of disabled characters playing traditionally non-disabled roles.
(49:24):
I think that's an important one because there is a space in new theatre and new work, but
I think something that would help shape the way we see a quarter of the population is
seeing disabled people in our favourite characters that we know and love currently because
(49:45):
currently other than, I guess, Fangirls, I haven't done anything that's existed before.
No.
Uh.
You haven't?
That's surprising.
Yeah.
But it's probably to do with that, you know, I've not done anything long running.
No, I agree.
I think that that's, that's a real, I mean, another episode, which will already be out
(50:06):
by the time this one is, um, I interviewed Beth Hinton-Lever.
Yes.
and Chris Bush and we, we were speaking about, you know, how difficult it is for some
disabled people to even access the theatre as a building and even get on stage and those
sorts of things.
Yeah.
And there's a lot of work to be done there.
It's like so much.
(50:26):
It's actually crazy.
Like it's so, there's so much work to be done.
But also, yeah, there's, there's work being done.
Yes.
But yeah, just hoping for a bit more of it.
Yeah.
And more quickly.
Yes.
Please.
Thank you.
Please.
Well funded.
Gosh.
Yeah.
(50:47):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
That double down on that end of like different cultures as well, both like cultures
with like ethnicity and where you come from as well as gender identities and queerness
and just, you know, more than one, as we've been talking about more than one, there's
(51:11):
so much to explore.
Like, you know, for me, I was saying this to all my friends at work, but I'm a,
you know, a mixed race, Asian, non-binary pansexual, like that's just one person.
If I was just one person to show, that's so much to unpack guys, like you need more than
one of these characters in there.
(51:31):
Because it is just so interesting.
I speak to so many fascinating people that are not able to show parts of their identities
on stage ever at all.
Like I've never ever seen any castings for actually really Chinese characters, let alone
Singaporean, which is what I am specifically like Southeast Asia.
I feel like people don't actually know what that is.
(51:51):
I didn't know what it was for the longest time and realized, yeah, because like we people
just talked about, you know, Asia, East Asia, South Asia, but they don't talk about Southeast
like Malaysia, Thailand.
The biggest movie that I saw where it was like kind of about Singapore was Crazy Rich
Asians.
That was the first one where I was like, it wasn't just like a random place that they're
visiting.
It was like, actually, this is Singapore culture.
(52:13):
And that as you know, it has some imperfections, but it was still like, it was still so joyous
when my mom watched it, she cried within the first five minutes.
So it really like, yeah, just don't be afraid.
I feel like people are so worried about showing things wrong that they don't even try.
(52:34):
And I think that just having the people in the room, being open discussion, being open
to changing things, it's just brilliant.
And so I would just love more culture and more things because it's just exciting.
I feel like people are scared of that and are scared that audiences won't like it, but
(52:55):
the more audiences see it, the more they are out there, the more people will be like, oh,
this isn't scary.
It's just other people.
It's just other people.
It's other cultures.
But we all experience, you know, the same emotions, the same conflicts, really.
So yeah, I would just love more.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
More please.
Now, please.
I think also, you know, for anyone who as an individual goes to the theatre, I think
(53:19):
it's always worth pushing yourself to go and see things you wouldn't necessarily gravitate
towards as well.
I think that's a really important, that's been, as an older person, that's been something
that I've learned, I think, over the last decade or so is that actually, yes, I can
go and see all of the plays that have white gay people in.
Hurrah.
But actually, oh my goodness, the amount that I've learned from seeing shows like Choir
(53:43):
Boy or Strange Loop or a wonderful show called Interstate, which is in the US, which I love
so much.
Yes.
Yes, I've heard about that.
Yeah.
And, you know, that's really important as well.
So did you see Stormzy's quote on the Ballet Shoes?
I didn't.
It was hilarious.
And I'm also obsessed.
And that's the epitome of it.
Essentially, he went with four of his male friends from his friend group, three of which
(54:09):
had never been to the theatre before and they were like, OK, let's just go and see what's
on at the National.
And they ended up watching the Ballet Shoes and they had the best time.
And he wrote, it's like the sickest thing I've ever seen or something really, really
silly like that.
But it was just like, well, that's, you know, that's family theatre, that.
(54:30):
I watched the ballet shoots and I thought it was just the best, like most heartwarming.
One of my favourite stories.
I love it.
Just beautiful.
Would you imagine Stormzy sat there in the audience?
Probably not.
And yet there he went.
Yeah.
And so should we all.
Absolutely.
See something that you don't think you'll like.
Yeah.
It might surprise you.
(54:51):
Be more Stormzy.
Yeah.
Be more Stormzy.
That'll be the title of this episode.
Be more Stormzy.
That's great.
Thank you so much, Gracie and Ashley, for joining me today.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you everybody at home for listening and we'll see you soon.
Bye.
Bye.
Thank you for listening to Represent, the Queer Musical Theatre podcast.
(55:17):
The research for this series is funded by the British Academy Early Career Researchers
Network Seed Fund and supported by Sheffield Hallam University.
The episodes were recorded at the Content is Queen podcast studios at The Makerversity
at Somerset House.
For more information, go to contentisqueen.org.
In next week's episode, we speak to West End leading man Zheng Xi Yong and West End leading
(55:41):
they-dy Jo Foster about their recent performances in Fourplay at the King's Head Theatre and
their roles leading Your Lie in April and Why Am I So Single, respectively.
See you then.
You're listening to Represent, the queer musical theatre podcast.
(00:04):
My name is Dr. James Lovelock and I'm an academic and a huge musical theatre fan, exploring
the representation of all things queer in the musical theatre industry.
Today's guests are the iconic Gracie McGonigal and the extraordinary Ashley Goh, who met
during a production of the new musical The Phase at the Vault Festival.
(00:25):
Since then, Gracie has wowed us with her performances as Lily in Fangirls at the Lyric Hammersmith
Theatre, and Ashley has imparted their wisdom as Alex in Babies at the Other Palace.
We discuss the importance of queer spaces, the joys of workshopping, and our hopes for
the future of musical theatre.
(00:46):
As always, you can follow us on your favourite podcast platform, and don't forget to share
this episode on social media.
Let's get started.
Hello everyone, my name's Gracie McGonigal and I use the pronouns she/her.
Hi, I'm Ashley Goe and I use the pronouns they/them.
(01:06):
Excellent.
So, in this series, I've been thinking particularly about what happens when we allow people to
tell their own stories.
And so, hopefully today we're going to talk about some of the projects that you've done,
where that's happened, maybe some of the rooms that you've worked in which have felt particularly
creative, or safe, or whatever that might be, and we'll see where we go.
(01:27):
So, I was going to ask you, first of all, about the musical you did together, which
is The Phase.
So, tell us a little bit about The Phase and your involvement with it and all of that sort
of thing.
Well, I played Rowan, who is also a non-binary character, non-binary trans masc, I think
(01:47):
specifically in the script.
And yeah, it was very, we had five days to work on that, we did have five days to work
on that.
It was a quick turnaround for The Phase.
It was so, it was so joyful, and for that short, like, little run, yeah, it was wonderful.
(02:11):
And they cast it, I think, I think it was social media, wasn't it?
Yeah, they did a reach out on social media, but I knew the writers, or one of the writers,
Meg McGrady, they were at Brit, my school, when I was there, a few years above me, and
(02:31):
I thought they were so cool.
I still think they're so cool, but at the time, I was like, yo, they're writing a musical.
Like, it's obviously they're just the coolest thing when you're like 16.
And I remember getting roped in to do their Scratch performance, back in the day when
(02:52):
we were all still sort of geeky, 16 through 18 year olds, and I actually played Sage in
that.
Oh my gosh.
I didn't end up playing Sage in the in the final version.
I played Ava, the ally.
Which is kind of all you need to know about that character.
(03:14):
Hilarious.
But it's been quite a long development, hasn't it?
The Phase it's been and I guess most new musicals do go through that kind of long development.
And you were involved.
Was it at the Vault Festival?
Yes.
Yeah.
We did it.
Yeah.
Which was also great.
Is that still running the Vault Festival?
(03:34):
No, I think they're still looking for a location.
They're looking for a new venue, I think.
That was the last time I heard.
Bring it back.
I know.
It's great, isn't it?
I've seen so many new plays, new musicals there, and it's such a great place to try
out.
Yeah.
Musicals are at the sort of stage of the phase where you can kind of, you know, you can
try it out with a smaller audience in a more intimate space and then hopefully that leads
(03:56):
on to perhaps, you know, further workshops or development or whatever comes next out
of it.
But we are very short of those kind of very sort of small scale and particularly festivals
as well, because that's great because you can just walk to something and then you can
go to something else.
And, you know, it's yeah, it was it was a really or hopefully still is a really great
(04:16):
festival.
Yeah.
I don't know.
I mean, I feel like because I haven't heard about it in a couple of years, it might be
on a little bit of a waiting, waiting for new stuff.
But yeah, I know it's incredibly London centric to say, but we really don't have that accessible
to us in London.
Yeah.
Because everyone's got to pay for everyone to go to Fringe, if that's how you do it.
(04:40):
I know Camden Fringe is starting to build up.
I'm seeing a lot more shows for Camden Fringe.
That's good.
But yeah, it is such a shame because like, honestly, that was actually my first time
at the Vaults.
Yeah, it was mine too.
And it was just such a joyous atmosphere.
The place was wild and so creative, and it was wonderful seeing all of the advertisements
for the different shows.
(05:00):
I'm a big fan of Edinburgh Fringe as well.
So it was it was so joyous.
And we were voted by the ushers as their favourite show.
Because that was when we went to their awards.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that was also really lovely because obviously they're seeing the show every night.
So it was nice to know that they enjoyed it.
And it was good.
We had such a good time.
(05:21):
And it was also a great example of how you can make a space accessible on a budget.
Yeah.
We had such a diverse cast.
It's classic.
Whenever I do any kind of podcast, I'm like, time to talk about disability.
It always should be something to talk about if we're putting on any sort of production,
(05:42):
really.
So what was it that made The Phase particularly accessible or feel like a particularly safe
space?
And what sort of processes did they go through to make everyone feel comfortable?
I mean, a lot of it was down to Meg, I think.
Yeah.
With their background in accessibility and especially for theatre.
I think they've done a lot of work on that at college.
(06:05):
But like just making sure that for every performance, even on a smaller scale, there was ear defenders
available and fidget toys and things to just like and sunglasses, things to help, you know,
the average person coming to see the show, find it just a much more pleasurable experience.
Yes.
And I think also a lot of people who didn't think they would gravitate towards having
(06:27):
that once it was presented to them, were like, oh, actually, these lights are really bright
right now.
I might just calm myself down with an earplug, you know?
Yes.
Yeah, they had a whole cart of like accessibility things, so fidget toys, blankets and things
like that.
Yeah.
And it was not just, we had a relaxed performance.
(06:47):
Yeah, we did.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And again, we only had like six shows, five, six shows.
And that means the most when sometimes you do these long runs and there's one.
And then maybe for one reason or another, it doesn't happen, you know, and everyone's
left there thinking like, oh.
I mean, it's hard as a producer, I mean, I produced a concert a couple of years ago.
(07:10):
And I was really, I made sure that we had a BSL interpreter for that.
But it's hard, you know, on a tight budget, it's not easy to be able to do those things,
but they're so important and should be so central, you know, to including people, including
our audiences, including our actors and our creatives and everything like that.
(07:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love The Phase because there was kind of like a little moment where we had quite a
lot of musicals that were set in in girls schools or setting, you know, and particularly
girls schools because we'd had sort of, you know, Bare and Everybody's Talking About Jamie
and you know, a load of stories, which are great stories, but a load of stories which
are, you know, mostly about men and boys in high school.
(07:54):
And then we had The Prom over in the US, which still hasn't come here and I don't understand
why.
I know, right?
It's so confusing why that hasn't.
Right.
Get me on that.
Exactly.
When that casting call comes out.
Yeah, I can stay young forever.
But it was great because alongside The Prom there was, there was The Phase was being developed
at the same time.
(08:15):
And then we had But I'm a Cheerleader as well.
Yes.
And, and Fangirls, which we'll, we'll get to in a bit as well.
And Babies.
And Babies.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Which is also, yeah.
And there's something I think that's really important about those high school musicals,
I think for everybody, but particularly for those of us that are queer or who know queer
people and, you know, have experienced either as a queer person ourselves or, you know,
(08:39):
trying to navigate our friends through it.
And I wonder what, how you found yourself reflected in those stories, or whether you,
you know, you had audience members who see themselves, you know, reflected in those stories
and what it is that makes those stories such great things to tell in the theatre?
What a good question.
(08:59):
Yes.
I think, well, definitely with The Phase, it was literally my life.
It was so close to my life.
I didn't come out at that time.
But I was very aware of it.
And it was a very similar friendship group.
All of them are queer.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All my friendship.
I went to a girl's school as well.
And it is such an interesting kind of situation to especially put like a trans masculine binary
(09:23):
character into.
And yeah, it was, it was just so truthful.
And it was interesting, because for me, as an actor, it was a little bit hard, because
just because it was real, it was a little bit hard.
And it was also a bit nerve wracking to represent this correctly, even though I lived it, but
I was like, this has to be like, right.
(09:46):
But it was, yeah, it was honestly just joyous to see that.
And like, for my friends as well, my childhood friends, to come and see that as well and
be like, God, that really was us.
Yes.
And I know to us, it feels so common, but I really don't feel like I see it that often.
And I also really appreciate how The Phase really introduced the concept of actually
(10:09):
protest within that show, because I feel like as a queer person, that is, you're either
going to know people who have been to protest, or you're going to go to protest yourself.
And I think it's so important.
It was so great to see how that was integrated into the plot.
Because Meg does protest and is very, very aware of that stuff as well.
(10:29):
And so it was great.
Actually, both of them, because Zoe is also a lawyer, so we had all that law stuff that
was in one of the songs, right?
You and...
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Totally.
It was nice to do something that felt so front-footed with that.
Yeah.
Like, the show didn't happen to the girls.
Like they came through it and took the reins and protest for what they believed in, and
(10:51):
it ended up going well for them, which I think in our times of political unrest, it's good
to sort of take a little bit of that with us that we do have the power to change the
things that we want to change.
Yeah.
But yeah.
It's interesting because I was a secondary school teacher from 2000 until 2011.
Oh, right.
(11:12):
And I wasn't out.
I mean, I was out in every other area of my life, but not as a teacher.
In fact, I was told not to be, which was, I think, out of concern for me rather than
anything else, but still.
But there was no real inkling of very many kids that were queer at school.
There was certainly no Gay Straight Alliance or LGBTQ society or anything like that.
(11:35):
And then once I left, I started to, and I started to be a university lecturer, I started
to hear about people who'd been to schools where actually there were these sorts of,
if they weren't organized, then there was enough queer people who were out to be able
to kind of band together.
And I think also band together with other people who feel othered at school as well.
I think that's another thing that was, that came across really well in The Phase.
(11:59):
Yes.
And that comes across in some of the other high school musicals.
It's interesting to me that The Phase is one of the few that has more than one queer character
because a lot of high school stories are one.
There's always one, isn't it?
There's always one.
Yeah.
Just one.
Just the one.
Just the only one.
And everyone's like, we forgive you.
Which is like...
Frankly, it's one too many.
(12:20):
We had one at school.
We had a Gay Straight Alliance and it was great.
Oh, that's good.
That's good to know because I think Gay Straight Alliance is more common in the US and Canada
than what I've heard.
Which is also just kind of library club, which really, which really does, I feel like, check
out for a lot of people's like high school queer experiences.
Yeah.
(12:41):
I've just been like the kind of quiet person and there's another quiet person there and
you just kind of...
But it was nice.
Like, you know, I went to a very normal school, like a very, London, but still a state school.
Not the poshest, but also not the poorest.
Like it was a real middle, middle of the road.
(13:04):
And actually, we had so many out gay people.
It was random, but also like really pleased.
It makes me so happy that even though schools are still a very difficult place to be queer,
it makes me really happy that people are now in a space where they have other people around
them and they're not going through it on their own.
(13:24):
And again, you know, going back to The Phase, it's one of the things that really stood out
to me was that you had this group who had each other's backs and yes, there were arguments
and conflict because there has to be in a story otherwise there's nothing in the story.
But yeah, that was, I really loved that.
I saw the original version at the Other Palace Theatre, which is another theatre that does
(13:45):
this sort of festival type thing from time to time.
Yeah.
The studio.
Yeah.
The studio in the Other Palace is great.
So good for that.
Yeah.
And so it's been lovely to watch that show develop over time.
And you know, and hopefully it keeps developing because, you know, it takes a very long time
to get a musical to its finished point if it ever gets there, you know.
(14:06):
So yeah.
Yeah.
We kind of just keep evolving them for kind of all of time, don't we?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's often the strength of a show is how it reinvents itself or chooses not to
reinvent itself to reflect the kind of time period that we're in.
If you're interested in LGBTQ+ representation in musical theatre, check out our website
(14:30):
www.queermusicals.com for lots more information about musicals with LGBTQ+ characters.
I think that moves us quite nicely on to Fangirls because Fangirls has had I think three different
productions now.
It's had two in Australia and one in the UK.
(14:53):
And you were part of that, Gracie.
I was!
I was!
It was one of my favourite things that I've seen for a long time.
And that was at the Lyric Hammersmith.
I think that was also a very queer cast, very queer creative team.
And although there were a couple of explicitly queer characters in there, but there was something
(15:15):
about, again, the way that all of those characters banded together.
Do you want to tell us a little bit about Fangirls and a little bit about, again, how
you were involved in that?
Yeah.
So Fangirls, as you say, we did it at the Lyric Hammersmith.
I've been involved with that show for a couple of years because I also workshopped that back
(15:36):
in the day.
And once again, as a different character, I was.
I workshopped it as Brianna, which was, but like, once again, you know, we don't always
get it right the first time, you know, sometimes we have to look at things again and go, Oh,
I actually think maybe a different role would be more suited to me.
(15:57):
But it was a fabulous, a fabulous show.
And I met my partner on that gig as well, which is so nice.
And we both did it two years later, which was cool.
And it's just, I don't know, that was also another really sensitive space.
But the show was awesome and kind of crazy when you say it out loud, because it essentially
(16:18):
follows this 14 year old hyper fan of Harry, no relation to Harry Styles, leave Harry Styles
out of this.
It's not him.
It's just British.
Yeah.
And he's got swoopy hair.
He's from Britain.
And also, he seriously doesn't have a surname, but it is in a band of five.
(16:40):
Which rhymes directly with One Direction, we've got Heartbreak Nation.
Or in Australia, True Connection, which was fun.
But essentially, I won't spoil it in case there's any future iterations across the world.
But some hilarious happenings happen with a sort of group of friends getting a little
too close to a pop star.
(17:02):
Yes.
Yeah.
But it was great fun.
And another just like queer space.
I don't know.
I think I'm really lucky.
I always end up in these queer shows.
I don't know what it is.
Maybe it's because I have like a certain vibe or like, you know what I mean?
It's really niche.
But I find myself very fortunate being in those spaces and sharing those spaces.
(17:25):
Because in my experience, it's always the best place to be.
Yes.
And the happiest places to be.
Yeah.
So yeah.
I was trying to work out what it is about queer spaces that is different to...
I don't want to say straight spaces, because that's like everywhere, but there is something
(17:49):
very particular about working, not every time you work in a queer space, but working in
a queer space, especially when it's quite balanced, when there's, you know, a mixture
of genders, a mixture of people from different ethnic backgrounds, you know, different abilities
or whatever it might be.
And I think it's just an equitable space.
And I think you kind of hit the nail on the head there, in that it just, when you've got
(18:11):
enough different people balancing the void, nobody gets, no one feels uncomfortable, because
everybody's looking out for each other.
And has their affinities with each other and sort of have a greater understanding.
I find those queer spaces to be very perceptive of how we're feeling, how it's going.
(18:34):
Very open to other people's experiences, because, you know, with all those people of different
cultures, they normally have to explain themselves, and be the only person in the room to explain
themselves.
But in a room full of people who are used to that, it's just a genuinely a very safe
space where you can kind of relax, because you're not the only one on that.
(18:57):
And you're also just interested in it, because everyone's so interesting.
Yeah.
It's true.
Yeah.
Which is such a pro.
Yeah.
And everyone's interested about other people being interesting.
So it's yeah, it's not just like a brush off type of thing.
Yeah, you don't have that thing of being like, oh, no, what if everyone finds out who I am?
(19:19):
And everyone's like, okay, yeah, moving on.
Yeah.
It's just a great, it just feels nice.
Yeah, it's nice.
I think things have changed with it as well.
Because I think people have always thought of musical theatre as being, I think, specifically
a gay male space, which I'm not sure how far, I don't know, I mean, I've not been in very
(19:40):
many kind of rehearsal rooms, but I don't know how far that's true.
But certainly gay men have historically had a lot more kind of ability or power to shape
things.
But now we're starting to get all sorts of people involved.
And it changes the dynamics in the room, it changes, you know, how comfortable people
feel in the room.
It's really interesting talking to directors like people like Tania Azevedo and, you know,
(20:06):
who kind of cultivate these spaces.
And I think that's really important for the future of this sort of work that we're talking
about here.
Yeah, for sure.
You know, it often goes right down to the initial casting call out, I find, I feel like
you always have a good, yes, you can always tell, like how it's going to be.
(20:28):
A lot of people who auditioned for Fangirls said it was their favourite audition experience
they'd ever had, you know, regardless of booking the job or not.
Like, a lot of people like, oh, I auditioned for that, I had a great time.
And actually, that's a really, that's so nice, because that often isn't the case.
You know, I know, even within myself, you know, you, you miss a job at the last minute
(20:50):
and you go, oh, like, I hope it flops, no, you don't, you don't do that, just avoid everything
about the show.
No, but you do have, like, you know, a little sadness in your heart being like, oh, like
sad that didn't go my way, or maybe you feel negatively towards it.
But so many people were like, oh, I had such a good time.
(21:13):
And I feel like that is to do with the equitable space.
Yeah.
And the flexibility I feel of the castings to kind of be open to being like, oh, no,
like, this is kind of what we're going for.
Yeah.
Anyone for anything.
Yeah.
Broad strokes.
It's adaptable around you, because I think that that is also a really good way of getting
(21:34):
like very real and genuine stories is to be open, like, oh, yeah, maybe this is this ethnicity
and this culture.
But if you have something different and you want to bring to the table, that's fantastic,
which is also why I love new musicals, because they're so open to adapting things.
Things change all the time.
And during workshops and stuff like that.
Old fashioned rhetoric as well about like, broken and unbroken voices and soprano alto.
(22:01):
Yeah.
You know, all of those kind of things that are just so gendered.
Yeah.
And that's just not true.
It doesn't have to be like that.
Like, you can totally just, everybody sings together.
And, you know, people just sing where their voice is comfortable and you don't have to.
Yeah.
Apply gender to being a bass.
(22:21):
Yeah.
I was thinking about Keisha Lewis in Hell's Kitchen in Broadway at the moment who sings
with this amazing bass voice.
And I don't know whether this story is true, but I believe Keisha Lewis wanted to experiment
with how low her voice could go.
(22:43):
So they were moving the keys around and it ended in this really beautiful, beautiful
place that I don't think any musical theatre writer would go, let's put it there and see
what happens.
No.
Because we have this game of getting higher and higher all the time, don't we?
Oh my God.
We go back to 20 years ago when Defying Gravity was the highest a song could go.
(23:04):
Yeah.
And now it just keeps going and going.
Now The Notebook's here and we're all struggling.
Please.
Please, the acting.
You can still do a good note.
Act out the high note, guys.
You can still do good notes and it's not too high.
That does make me think of your moment in Fangirls, though.
That was awesome.
I will think so.
(23:24):
Back to me.
Why are you talking about that?
There is an amazing moment in Fangirls where you, where your character is riffing and then
realises she's the only one that is riffing and then has to kind of bring the riff back
down gradually.
And that moment, everybody I talk to who's been involved in it or has seen it mentions
(23:48):
that moment because it was just so beautifully controlled.
You know what, actually, when my character didn't really have any lines, I feel like
I didn't say a single word in that, but I was often soloing.
I felt like, yeah, I kind of played, I described my character in that show, Lily, is her name,
(24:12):
is the internet because she kind of just social comments on everything through kind of just
loud noises, like vocal kind of, I don't know, random vocals.
I hope it was great fun, hashtags, screams.
(24:34):
That was also just so fun to sort of play that teenage girl and use my voice and how
I've learned to sort of sing with it now and stretch myself into going into that sort of
Ariana meets Tori Kelly meets rifftastic place and kind of love that they were able to give
(24:57):
that to me.
I mean, the person who played Lily originally, Aisha Madden, is so iconic, like she's unbelievable,
amazing vocal artist.
So it's just so great to sort of pass that to me and go like, oh, my gosh, I get to just
sort of do what I like now, question mark, which is great.
(25:19):
And it comes back to that new musicals thing as well and the creative team being open to
things being done differently.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And that was great as well, because there's so many moments where I was like, hmm, this
is just a scene change here.
And I'm like, guys, I've got an idea.
It's so funny.
(25:40):
We're just talking like, we should reduce the high notes, but also, yeah, it's a clever
plan so other people can't do it.
Never get too comfortable, gang, because there's new grads every year sitting in the notebook.
(26:03):
Oh, yeah.
Oh, my Lord.
I know.
It's too talented these days.
Oh, God, yeah.
Too many facilities available to them.
Me and Babies, most of the cast were like graduates, graduated.
They were, weren't they?
Yeah.
And did you feel old for the first time?
Yes.
Because that's not a word I'd use to describe you.
Right.
(26:24):
You were a youthful person.
I'm a little baby.
You're a baby little bee.
They were more baby than me and babies.
Tell us about Babies, actually.
Full of babies.
Yes.
One little fun little segue, hey.
But yes, Babies is a show about nine-year-elevens who have to take care of these realistic robot
babies for a week.
And I played Alex, who is a non-binary character, in that.
(26:46):
And it was really fun, actually, because we had Alex be the only person who was actually
fine with their life.
Because in our backstory for Alex, Alex came out the year before.
They had a whole time to, you know, come out, tell everyone and be more comfortable with
themselves.
So they are the most chill about having these babies.
(27:08):
Everyone else is about like a 10 in terms of how these babies like really either excitement
or like fear.
And I'm kind of, I was playing someone who was, you know, a rock to everyone else, which
was honestly so joyous.
Yes.
Because the characters are all 16.
And like being when I was that age, I was just I wasn't out at all.
(27:34):
And it was just so nice to kind of have that person who's not panicked about their gender
identity or their sexuality, and to just be kind of a reliable person that other characters
kind of go to.
And I like saying wisdom stuff.
I think there was a line in the second act where literally, I think one of the characters
(27:57):
is like, you're so wise.
And I'm like, yeah.
It appears I am.
And it was just really nice to kind of not be panicked about it and to just like show
just, you know, non-binary joy.
You're so good in Hot Dad.
Hot Dad.
Panic in Hot Dad.
Hot Dad was great.
Actually, yeah, that was the one time I did, I did panic and it's the fact that I'm being
(28:21):
thrown into a musical number.
I was gay panicking in Hot Dad.
It was so good.
Yeah, Hot Dad is, yeah, that was amazing.
It's great to like be in a song called Hot Dad, which is a boyband parody song about
how if you're a dad, everyone suddenly kind of finds you hot.
(28:41):
And it's so great.
And it was such a great one for the audience as well.
Yeah, on our last night, we had a standing ovation after Hot Dad, which was amazing.
I mean, it was that good.
And it was so good.
It's such a banging song.
I think it's won the award before.
I think it won the Stiles and Drewe awards.
Yeah.
Yeah, that was right at the beginning of the development of Babies and it deserves it.
(29:04):
That's the one, you know, when I'm streaming, when I'm streaming the Babies soundtrack, Hot
Dad is on, turned up, when it's giving you the warning, like, this is too loud.
And I'm like, I don't care.
I don't care.
You have to live through Hot Dad.
But yeah, and they were so open.
I mean, like, the person who played Alex before me, Aitch Wiley, who also played Rowan in the
(29:26):
phase before me.
Oh my gosh, of course.
Yeah, yeah.
But yeah, they were so open, Martha Keelan, who wrote and directed Babies.
She's so open to all different types of stories.
And also, like, Alex's storyline actually really changed because we had so many, again,
(29:49):
like different queer identities in that we had two male gay characters and then the other
character Grace, who had like a kind of a flirtation with Alex.
And they were so, they really wanted Alex to kind of not have like a typical romance
story with Grace.
I think initially that there was that.
(30:10):
And then we changed it with every workshop, and then it became something that was kind
of just like its own thing, like, it was kind of a bit more mature, and like, it was kind
of getting together.
But like, it's also just like getting to know two people who are like, also queer.
And they're like, if we're both queer, then I guess we should do, we should like date.
(30:30):
But no, yeah, it was it was interesting, because we also had a typical romance with the two
male gay characters as well.
So it was fun to just see so many, and to have those, like different storylines reflected
in Babies.
And it also isn't what really the show is about.
It's just it's part of it.
Because all of the show is about growing up and maturing too fast.
(30:55):
And seeing what that brings out in people.
And just embracing youth and all of its silliness and fun.
And so it was so lovely to have that be an element and a strong element, but also, there's
so much more to the show as well.
And there's so many different counteracting characters there.
That's just fun.
It was great.
Yeah.
(31:15):
If you want to follow us on social media, you can use queer.musicals on Instagram
or Facebook.
Or you can follow me at DrJamesLovelock on Instagram.
(31:35):
One of the things I've been complaining about on the podcast so far is how few queer characters
there are on the West End at the moment.
In fact, there are no protagonists on the West End since Why Am I So Single closed.
But these conversations and actually some of the other stuff that I've seen recently
is reminding me that actually there is a load of queer musicals or queer plays with music
(31:59):
all over the place.
I went and saw the Ministry of Lesbian Affairs at the Kiln Theatre, which is absolutely wonderful.
And the other one that I loved, which is a similar one, is Miss Myrtle's Garden, which
is at the Bush Theatre, which is a play rather than a musical.
But it has Michael Ahonka-Lindsay and Elander Moore, you know, various people who've done
(32:22):
musical theatre and music is a part of it as well.
And I think it's great that those things are there.
And the important thing for us now, perhaps, is trying to direct people to those shows.
If you're looking for queer characters or you're looking for queer storylines, perhaps
they're not in the West End at the moment, but they are there and we just need to make
sure that we're kind of sharing them with each other, I suppose.
(32:46):
Yeah, that is why I absolutely gravitate towards new musicals, because they are really trying
to push for the diversity of different identities.
And although there is a push there, a lot of the stuff that is going on is stuff that
is pre-existing that they have to adapt, things like that Miss Saigon thing where they changed
(33:07):
it a lot.
But it's also a lot of hoops to go through for things like that.
And it's just like news, there's so many new shows, so many new shows, so many new writers.
And we saw what happened in Operation Mincemeat who, like, you know, they...
What happens when you give a new show a chance, guys.
Yeah.
Like, it is crazy because we know there's so many startups, like, I feel like I've seen
(33:31):
a lot of the Bush recently that is queer and that is interesting, but I don't see it transferring.
I don't see it coming to these sort of bigger venues where there's more funding and there's
more, you know, advertising.
So keep your eyes peeled, gang.
(33:53):
Absolutely keep your eyes peeled.
It's where all the good stuff is happening in new places and fringes and things like
that.
It's incredible.
I mean, again, things like Six was at the fringe for ages before it became really big.
Worth mentioning places like the Southwark Playhouse, King's Head Theatre, you know, there's
a few, the Other Palace we've mentioned as well, there's quite a few theatres that do
(34:16):
do quite a lot of queer shows or, you know, or shows that are not necessarily using pre-existing
stories.
And there's a lot more interesting stuff there.
I was going to ask you about workshopping because Ashley, I know you particularly love
a workshop.
I do love a workshop.
Workshops love me.
So does the Other Palace studio.
(34:38):
Oh my God, I've done five shows there.
That's amazing.
And when Babies went to the Other Palace, my agent was like, hey, guess where Babies
is going?
And I was like, it's the Other Palace.
It's always going to be the Other Palace.
It's the classic.
That was main stage.
That was fun.
But yeah, I was going to ask you about some of your favourite shows that you've workshopped
that maybe you hope will have a future life.
(35:01):
Because actually, if we talk about shows as they're in workshop, because there seems to
be a thing that we don't really talk about things until we think they're ready.
and the reason why I think The Phase was so successful is because it was always being
talked about.
And right from the very first time that they they were putting on Scratch Nights or that
they put it on at the Other Palace for a kind of reading or a workshop performance.
(35:24):
People were talking about it and everyone's looking for it.
Yeah.
So I would love to hear anything about any workshops that you've loved being involved
with and just so we can look out for them.
I did a workshop, my first ever workshop, which I'm still hoping will come back in some
capacity because it was from the team that did Unfortunate, if you know of Unfortunate.
(35:49):
Yes.
Did this show called Shipton that was super cool.
And I have a direct love for it because it was about Mother Shipton, who's this Yorkshire
witch, but who was known for being a disabled character and it's sort of about her life and
like this like really cool story about this real, you know, place that people visit all
(36:12):
the time that I had no idea about.
And the music's great.
It's great.
But I haven't heard about that in a long time.
I hope that hasn't died.
I hope they bring it back, because if you've seen any of Robyn Grant, Tim Gilvin's stuff,
that's really, really high camp and great.
(36:34):
It's always great fun.
I remember seeing Vulvarine as well and Fat Rascal theatre have done some wonderful things.
So good.
Unfortunate was a particular favourite as well.
So funny.
Yeah.
So good.
Yeah.
Last year.
Yeah.
Near the end of last year, I did a show called Asian Pirate Musical, which was so joyous
(36:56):
because it really was intersectionality with like both my Asian identity and queer identity
as well.
I think half of the characters were non-binary because a lot of the writing crew was made
in a very unique way in that it had about five or six writers, both composers and writers
(37:18):
together.
And then working with a mix of like traditional Chinese, well it was a mix of Chinese, whole
like East Asian and Southeast Asian music from like kind of futuristic and traditional.
And a lot of the people on there were queer as well.
And so a lot of characters were like that, like three characters were from the future.
(37:42):
Oh, I should say the plot, because the plot's wild.
So a bunch of Asian pirates from different time periods all get zapped onto one ship
and have to deal with each other.
And also the fact that the planet is dying from global warming.
I love it.
(38:02):
It's wilding.
And also keep an eye on that because something is happening for that, that should be coming
out literally next month, something very exciting.
It was so lovely.
It was just really nice to hang out with a bunch of people who had similar cultures to
mine, but also like different.
Like some people had, you know, like they grew up in Thailand, but then like worked
(38:25):
in Singapore for a bit and then like came to the UK and like a whole bunch of mix of
different people.
And some people who, you know, just grew up in the UK, but they were Asian, you know,
or America and like it was just really interesting to see our similarities, differences, what
we could bring.
And also like there's a great song in the show called Pass the Bok Choy, which is where
(38:51):
all the characters are kind of cooking together and they're socializing and they kind of like
settle themselves.
And it was just really, yeah, it was really lovely to also have that within the rehearsing
of the show.
And I'd done several workshops of that.
And they were, again, like so open to feedback and changing things like plotlines or characters
(39:15):
and driven stuff.
So it was just, yeah, lovely.
And I really, really hope it gets something because that's a show that could really be
so nice for the big budget, like the ship, there's a huge monster in it.
And also the music as well is so atmospheric.
There's some really great, like kind of scary almost things.
(39:38):
And it would also be lovely with the full music as well, because they have, I think,
like a lot of different instruments we used that aren't usually heard on the West End
or on Broadway.
And it was so cool.
It's so cool.
That's always a big thing about workshopping is everybody sat there and like, and then
there'll be this mega guitar riff, just like imagine it, imagine it, and then that'll happen.
(40:04):
I did a cool one this year for Weird, which is the new Nick Butcher musical, who wrote
The Little Big Things, which I also got fortunate enough to do.
And that was, that's so cool.
I don't have any attachment to it at the moment, but I know they're getting a small run, I
(40:26):
think in, I want to say Plymouth, I might be wrong.
But they've definitely got a little showing in, well, a short showing in a big theatre
in January.
But that one is a, the Scottish play, brackets, Macbeth, we're not in a theater, but all the
world's a stage, retelling from the sort of witches point of view.
(40:51):
And that's very like, oh my gosh, it's so good.
One of the most star-studded workshops I've ever done.
Like what do you mean, like Tosh is in it, Jordan Luke Gage is in it, it was fabulous,
Jess Lee was there, Lucy Jones was there, I was shocked.
(41:12):
Because it's so good, like it's fabulous, like it was great, I'm so excited to see what
happens with that, because every song's an earworm.
If there's one thing that they can do, it's write a hook, and that was great fun.
I had great fun workshopping that.
So yeah, hopefully we see more from Weird.
(41:33):
Yeah.
And great as well that Soho Place has opened, because there's that size theater, we don't
have very many of in this country, or we do in the country, but not in London.
And so one of the problems for new musical has been, if you do something at the Other
Palace, and even if you do something on the Other Palace main stage, it's a massive jump
(41:56):
then to go to the next biggest theatre, because there's so few.
And actually, our smaller theatres at the moment, well, I guess, Operation Mincemeat
is in the Fortune Theater, which is one of the smaller theaters, the Arts Theater tends
to have fairly long running things in now.
So it's quite difficult.
It's hard to get that entry.
Yeah, I remember in lockdown, everyone was talking about the queues into these theatres,
(42:21):
you know, that, I don't know, I'm not a producer, but the sort of three or four, five plus,
you know, shows that are queuing up to go in each space, you know, so many shows that
are promised to transfer and it feels like we're all twiddling our thumbs like, yeah,
are they coming?
When?
Where's it gonna be?
You know, we haven't got the spaces.
(42:42):
And I love Soho Place.
I loved working there.
So accessible.
Tick, tick, tick, Nica Burns, you outdid yourself with that.
It's great.
And that was such a cool place for The Little Big Things to go.
And yeah, I'm so sad we haven't seen more from that.
(43:02):
Because I still get messages literally on a daily basis from people being like, that
show meant so much to me.
There's a few fans of that show that contact me all the time to share just about their
lives and how much it still impacts them.
So I'm hoping at some point we'll see more from that, because those stories need to be
(43:25):
told.
This series of Represent has been recorded at the Content is Queen studio in Somerset
House.
Content is Queen is a podcast agency and community made up of women, people of colour and LGBTQIA+
people who wish to connect, create and collaborate using audio and podcasting.
For more information, go to contentisqueen.org.
(43:47):
It seems to be a bit of a trend at the moment that those musicals which are maybe original
stories or stories that haven't been told in other mediums, particularly a lot before.
I'm thinking of Why Am I So Single as well, it had a four or five month run, and was so
important to some people who saw it, you know, and we think, okay, well, where does this
(44:09):
go next and, and what other ways are there for people to experience this?
I mean, one of the things I've been thinking a little bit about is the idea of
archiving and while it's not the same to have videos and videos, this makes me sound like
I'm from the 90s.
No!
We say videos!
To film.
They got the camcorder out.
Rolling!
(44:29):
What do I mean?
But, you know, archive footage and digital footage of shows because there are people
either who see the show once and need to keep seeing that story to heal something perhaps
or to, to see themselves represented, and then there's people that just don't have access
(44:53):
to some of these shows because they're priced out of it.
And it's really big for me is a big conundrum at the moment is how can we make some of the
shows accessible to people who, you know, who aren't able to travel for whatever reason.
No, 100% like the, the National Theatre streaming service is great, but that is subscription
based, you know, which is also in itself a difficult thing because we've all got so many
(45:17):
streaming.
We've all got, you know, it's now statistically, isn't it more expensive than cable TV to have
all the, all the different streaming platforms.
But, I mean, that's a, that's exactly how you do a classy, classy recording of a show.
And a lot of those recordings I find so successful because it feels like you're there, feels
(45:40):
like you're on stage with them, which is great, but as we know, not all shows are getting
the same treatment.
I mean, I know that there's probably things around rights and payments and all that kind
of thing, but I'm sure it's not insurmountable.
But yes, and, and, you know, and again, it's also thinking about how do you get the resources
out there.
(46:00):
So if people want to know more about The Phase, where do they go?
Where do they go to see that?
You know, I think we've been talking about other shows here.
How do people experience those things?
It's hard.
It's a, it's a very boring one, but it's because it's, it all comes down to sort of Equity
rules.
Yes.
You know, in terms of when you film something, does that become a film?
Yes.
(46:21):
Or does it become archival footage?
It's, all of this is so difficult to differentiate, you know, because every, as much as everyone
wants everything to be online and available, especially to young people who want to get
involved, you know.
People still need to be paid for it.
(46:42):
Yeah.
It's like suddenly it's like, Oh, no worries guys, we've just filmed this performance.
It's like, great.
Will you use that for all of time?
Yeah.
How is this going?
You know, we're like, you know, it's hard because like suddenly there's, there's a lot
of stuff with that.
I still don't understand with like point systems and stuff.
When you do like a cast album or recording something on stage and it's like, Oh, you
(47:05):
get three points of that.
I'm like, what's the point?
What's the point?
Like of what?
Of what percentage?
Of how many points are there in total?
There's infinite points.
It's like, when I get, when I get enough, can I send off for a toy?
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
It's totally that kind of thing.
It's very, they don't, they don't teach you that at drama school.
Yeah.
(47:26):
They don't teach you the law stuff.
They don't teach you the law stuff.
They do not.
The best piece of advice I got was like, look up law stuff, look up what Equity is actually
doing.
Yeah.
Because there's so much stuff involved.
And then like, I feel like, yeah, especially with like contracts.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Having the contract not be a mystery to you is a big, is a big pro for a young performer.
(47:47):
Especially if you were like me and sort of, yeah, back in the day, I didn't do three years
of drama training.
Um, so I, no, of course we both did.
We're niche for that.
Yeah.
Most people do.
Um, but, but yeah, I'm, when we both sort of came out in the industry, we were like,
(48:08):
can I, can I work for £4.50 to learn like 3000 shows and you know what I mean?
It's one of those industries that works so much on goodwill, isn't it?
Yeah.
Yeah.
But it can't because it's what, it's what people use to, to live on.
Yeah.
And now I'm a big adult who has to pay rent.
(48:36):
But no, it's, you know, you have to look after yourselves from day one.
Yeah, absolutely.
I've got one more question for you and it's that, it's this, I've asked this question
to everybody is what, what sort of stories would you like to see being told in the future
in musical theatre?
Mine's still quite obvious because there are still like no disabled people in, well there
(48:59):
are, but they're secretly disabled people slash not visible, um, slash not working.
Yeah.
But I would like to see a lot more disabled characters, protagonists, people at the sort
of front of their story.
Yes.
And also a lot of disabled characters playing traditionally non-disabled roles.
(49:24):
I think that's an important one because there is a space in new theatre and new work, but
I think something that would help shape the way we see a quarter of the population is
seeing disabled people in our favourite characters that we know and love currently because
(49:45):
currently other than, I guess, Fangirls, I haven't done anything that's existed before.
No.
Uh.
You haven't?
That's surprising.
Yeah.
But it's probably to do with that, you know, I've not done anything long running.
No, I agree.
I think that that's, that's a real, I mean, another episode, which will already be out
(50:06):
by the time this one is, um, I interviewed Beth Hinton-Lever.
Yes.
and Chris Bush and we, we were speaking about, you know, how difficult it is for some
disabled people to even access the theatre as a building and even get on stage and those
sorts of things.
Yeah.
And there's a lot of work to be done there.
It's like so much.
(50:26):
It's actually crazy.
Like it's so, there's so much work to be done.
But also, yeah, there's, there's work being done.
Yes.
But yeah, just hoping for a bit more of it.
Yeah.
And more quickly.
Yes.
Please.
Thank you.
Please.
Well funded.
Gosh.
Yeah.
(50:47):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
That double down on that end of like different cultures as well, both like cultures
with like ethnicity and where you come from as well as gender identities and queerness
and just, you know, more than one, as we've been talking about more than one, there's
(51:11):
so much to explore.
Like, you know, for me, I was saying this to all my friends at work, but I'm a,
you know, a mixed race, Asian, non-binary pansexual, like that's just one person.
If I was just one person to show, that's so much to unpack guys, like you need more than
one of these characters in there.
(51:31):
Because it is just so interesting.
I speak to so many fascinating people that are not able to show parts of their identities
on stage ever at all.
Like I've never ever seen any castings for actually really Chinese characters, let alone
Singaporean, which is what I am specifically like Southeast Asia.
I feel like people don't actually know what that is.
(51:51):
I didn't know what it was for the longest time and realized, yeah, because like we people
just talked about, you know, Asia, East Asia, South Asia, but they don't talk about Southeast
like Malaysia, Thailand.
The biggest movie that I saw where it was like kind of about Singapore was Crazy Rich
Asians.
That was the first one where I was like, it wasn't just like a random place that they're
visiting.
It was like, actually, this is Singapore culture.
(52:13):
And that as you know, it has some imperfections, but it was still like, it was still so joyous
when my mom watched it, she cried within the first five minutes.
So it really like, yeah, just don't be afraid.
I feel like people are so worried about showing things wrong that they don't even try.
(52:34):
And I think that just having the people in the room, being open discussion, being open
to changing things, it's just brilliant.
And so I would just love more culture and more things because it's just exciting.
I feel like people are scared of that and are scared that audiences won't like it, but
(52:55):
the more audiences see it, the more they are out there, the more people will be like, oh,
this isn't scary.
It's just other people.
It's just other people.
It's other cultures.
But we all experience, you know, the same emotions, the same conflicts, really.
So yeah, I would just love more.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
More please.
Now, please.
I think also, you know, for anyone who as an individual goes to the theatre, I think
(53:19):
it's always worth pushing yourself to go and see things you wouldn't necessarily gravitate
towards as well.
I think that's a really important, that's been, as an older person, that's been something
that I've learned, I think, over the last decade or so is that actually, yes, I can
go and see all of the plays that have white gay people in.
Hurrah.
But actually, oh my goodness, the amount that I've learned from seeing shows like Choir
(53:43):
Boy or Strange Loop or a wonderful show called Interstate, which is in the US, which I love
so much.
Yes.
Yes, I've heard about that.
Yeah.
And, you know, that's really important as well.
So did you see Stormzy's quote on the Ballet Shoes?
I didn't.
It was hilarious.
And I'm also obsessed.
And that's the epitome of it.
Essentially, he went with four of his male friends from his friend group, three of which
(54:09):
had never been to the theatre before and they were like, OK, let's just go and see what's
on at the National.
And they ended up watching the Ballet Shoes and they had the best time.
And he wrote, it's like the sickest thing I've ever seen or something really, really
silly like that.
But it was just like, well, that's, you know, that's family theatre, that.
(54:30):
I watched the ballet shoots and I thought it was just the best, like most heartwarming.
One of my favourite stories.
I love it.
Just beautiful.
Would you imagine Stormzy sat there in the audience?
Probably not.
And yet there he went.
Yeah.
And so should we all.
Absolutely.
See something that you don't think you'll like.
Yeah.
It might surprise you.
(54:51):
Be more Stormzy.
Yeah.
Be more Stormzy.
That'll be the title of this episode.
Be more Stormzy.
That's great.
Thank you so much, Gracie and Ashley, for joining me today.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you everybody at home for listening and we'll see you soon.
Bye.
Bye.
Thank you for listening to Represent, the Queer Musical Theatre podcast.
(55:17):
The research for this series is funded by the British Academy Early Career Researchers
Network Seed Fund and supported by Sheffield Hallam University.
The episodes were recorded at the Content is Queen podcast studios at The Makerversity
at Somerset House.
For more information, go to contentisqueen.org.
In next week's episode, we speak to West End leading man Zheng Xi Yong and West End leading
(55:41):
they-dy Jo Foster about their recent performances in Fourplay at the King's Head Theatre and
their roles leading Your Lie in April and Why Am I So Single, respectively.
See you then.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.