September 23, 2025 • 46 mins
to Represent, the queer musical theatre podcast.
My name is Dr. James Lovelock, and I'm an academic and a huge musical theatre fan exploring the representation of all things queer in the musical theatre industry.
My guests today are West End leading man Zheng Xi Yong and West End leading they-dy Jo Foster, who have just finished starring in Fourplay at the Kings Head’s Theatre.
In this episode, we discuss queer, Asian and non-binary representation in Your Lie in April and Why Am I So Single, and start an entirely unsubstantiated rumour that Jason Robert Brown is planning a musical adaptation of the CBeebies show In The Night Garden.
As always, you can follow us on your favourite podcast platform, and don't forget to share this episode on social media.
Links
Jo's instagram
Zheng Xi's instagram
James's instagram
Represent podcast instagram and website
New work
Why Am I So Single? website, instagram, Spotify and Apple Music
Your Lie In April instagram Spotify and Apple Music
Fourplay instagram
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You're listening to Represent, the queer musical theatre podcast. My name is Dr.
(00:05):
James Lovelock and I'm an academic and a huge musical theatre fan exploring the
representation of all things queer in the musical theatre industry.
In today's episode we speak to West End leading man Zheng Xi Yong and West End
leading they-dy Jo Foster about their recent performances in Fourplay at the
Kings Head Theatre and their roles leading Your Lie in April and Why Am I
(00:27):
So Single, respectively. We discuss queer, non-binary and Asian representation and
start an unsubstantiated rumor that Jason Robert Brown is working on an
adaptation of the CBeebies series In The Night Garden.
As always you can follow us on your favourite podcast platform and don't
(00:49):
forget to share this episode on social media. Let's get started.
Hi I'm Zheng Xi. I'm currently playing the character of Pete in Fourplay and last
year I did a musical called Your Lie in April in the West End. My name is Jo
Foster. I'm playing the role of Andy in Fourplay at the Kings Head and I was
(01:13):
recently in a production called Why Am I So Single where I played the role of
Oliver. I also use they/them pronouns. So get it right. We will do our best.
Yes, lovely. Excellent. So let's start by talking about Fourplay which is the show
that you've just finished at the Kings Head Theatre. Well essentially the
the plot of Fourplay is about these two characters called Rafe and Pete. They're
(01:39):
in a seven-year monogamous relationship and they, you know, things start to
go a bit stale so they ask their friend Michael if he will sleep with them
separately but not tell his partner Andy who is me and essentially Andy invites
(02:02):
them all round of an evening and it's kind of like this cat-and-mouse chase
until, you know, Andy outrightly asks them why didn't you pick me? And then
obviously the whole plot transpires and it's kind of like this story which on
its surface level you think is about sex but actually it's all the topics and
(02:24):
themes around sex like intimacy and then honesty and trust and loyalty within
relationships and intimacy. So yeah, it's really cool. It's a really cool show.
It's really funny and it's like a comedy-drama. But yeah, I think that's the
premise of it covered. How did you get into it, Zheng Xi? How did I get into it?
(02:48):
How did you just suddenly fall into this? I auditioned, as we all do, as actors.
Yeah, an audition came through and I met with Jack Sein, our director, and Jake
Brunger who's the writer and I did one round of audition and some people might
(03:09):
have had more depending on the jigsaw of the show and then the offer came through.
How about you, Jo? The same, girl. Yeah, just one round, bish-bash-bosh. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.
Apparently that's how it is these days. No, it's literally not. Yeah, I think I, yeah, literally did it and
then found the day, the day after, the day of. I think it was the day. Wow, that's
(03:33):
really quick. Yeah, really cool. And that's great as well because it's, you know, it's
an interesting show in terms of the fact that the mixture of characters that
you've got there and also the the updating that they've done to the
original as well. Yeah. Which I guess kind of fits around the people that they've
cast because actually whoever you cast in whatever roles is going to have an
(03:53):
impact on the way that the story is seen. You know, we have a show now which does
include different genders, we've got a show now that includes interracial
relationships and all that sort of thing. Yeah, yeah. Did you discuss those sorts of
things during the process or are they just things that kind of you
just see where they take you? Mm-hmm. Well for me it was very spoken about in
(04:14):
actually my first round of auditions when we went in. It was, you know, they
were, they wanted to create the role of Andy. They wanted Andy to be someone that
was genderqueer. Yeah. Yeah, I guess for them they were kind of trying to figure
out how much and, you know, how little because I guess all the characters are
(04:35):
so open to interpretation. So I think they saw a lot of people. Yeah. And
also, like, it was a huge conversation of do you want to, you know, it's so
sometimes it's quite hard for, like, trans actors to, like, go into these spaces and
have to be the person to speak on these things and these topics and it's
(04:56):
like, you know, and I think in my, in the audition it was like, would you feel
comfortable with this? You know, how far are you willing to go with it? And for me
I'm quite open about it. It's not something I bother with. I mean, obviously
sometimes it can get a bit tiring but, you know, this was already something that
was kind of set. And it's beautiful as well because we don't actually talk
(05:18):
about, you know, their identity. They just are someone who is non-binary and they
use their own pronouns and that's never really addressed in the show. Yes.
However, you know, I guess the premise of it can kind of hint to that. Yeah, it kind of
heightens certain moments, doesn't it? Particularly the moment you mentioned
earlier about why didn't you choose me? There's something, I think, in that
(05:43):
moment that's really kind of changes the flavor of the story. Yeah, and you can kind of
see that in the relationships between all the characters and who they are, I
think. Yeah. No, yeah, yeah. I think they have taken into
consideration, like in my case, like my ethnicity. I don't think so much in the
audition process, actually. It was more about the staging of it. Yeah. Because I
(06:05):
don't think a lot of the language of the show had to be updated in a way to
accommodate an interracial relationship. And from what I know from past
productions, they have had already had ethnic diverse casts. But I think there
were like a few changes that were made to, you know, be a bit more, I guess,
universal, so that anyone can relate to it. So one of them was like the name
(06:29):
change of Peter's surname. It used to be Peter Mitchell. Yeah. And I just was like,
I don't look like a Peter Mitchell. Phil Mitchell. I know. I know. I think you do. You've got a bit of a look of him.
Mitchell. Well, yeah, I contributed the surname Lee. Because Lee can be an Asian
surname, but also it could be like a Caucasian. Yeah. Like any, I think any
(06:52):
ethnicity. I think Lee's such a common surname. Love. So that was one of them.
And then the other thing with the staging, I guess, is more like the portrayal of
queer Asian men and the stereotyping of queer Asian men as necessarily effeminate
and submissive. So that was a discussion that I had with Jack, the director, about
(07:15):
adding a scene, or not adding a scene, but like directing the scene or
choreographing the cheating scene in a way where Pete, as an Asian man, is more
dominant. I thought it was very important because it does affect people
subconsciously of their view on Asian men. Even like non-queer Asian men, I
think there is a perception that we are more like submissive and feminine. And
(07:38):
there's nothing wrong with people being like that. No. But it's a problem when, as
a general demographic, people just assume that's your identity. Yeah, absolutely. And
again, I think there's some interesting things in there. I mean, there was, there's
a moment quite early on where Pete's talking about their sexual preferences
and wanting to be, I don't know what they say they want to be dominated, or whether
they, whether it's just they want that sort of role play in what they're doing.
(08:02):
Yeah. And so it's, it's interesting when you take something that's not
necessarily been written with an Asian character in mind, and then you think,
well, hold on, how does this work with the lived experience that perhaps you
bring to it, or the experiences that you know from other people from that
community as well. Yeah, and I think, I think the creative team have been very
(08:24):
open to these discussions. Yeah, they've been trying to, like, you know, get it as
right as possible. Yeah, they were so fab. It's really nice working with a team that is
actually just open to having these conversations, and they were so willing
with what, you know, we were all coming in with, they wanted us to come in with our
own ideas and our thoughts and feelings, and I think that's actually come across
(08:46):
in it. I think it's quite a, I think it's quite a fabulous piece of theatre, if I say so myself.
Yes. A fabulous piece of queer theatre, actually. Absolutely, and it's one of the
things that we've mentioned so many times. So this is, you're on the season
finale, which is terribly exciting for us. Oh my god, wait, what does that mean? We are
the finale? You are the finale. Oh, we could have been anything that we wanted to be.
(09:10):
There's the whole of that song's been recorded, but we're just going to keep one line in.
Stay tuned for the end. But one of the things that we've been talking about
throughout this series is that there's very little work in the West End at the
moment, which is specifically queer. I mean, we've just got Born With Teeth,
which is opening, but there's not really very many other plays or musicals in the
(09:32):
West End at the moment since the fabulous Why Am I So Single? So one of
the things that I'm encouraging people who listen to this podcast to do is to
go and see shows which are on at perhaps fringe venues or off-West End venues or regional venues.
It's so important, so important. Support queer theatre. Yeah. I mean, it's so hard, isn't it,
with the current climate. Ticket prices are so expensive, but I think if you can,
(09:54):
absolutely do it. Yeah. I think it's one of the other intersections that I'm
interested in as well is between being queer and being working class or being
queer and, you know, coming from backgrounds where you wouldn't
necessarily go to the theatre. And it is one of the things that worries me is how
expensive it is for people to be able to go to the theatre and see shows. And how
(10:16):
do we make these sort of shows more accessible? I think it's particularly
with plays it's more difficult because you can't just put the original cast
album of a play out there. So if you want to know more about Fourplay, then you'd
have to... Sorry? Excuse you. I mean, the play Fourplay. If you wanted to know more about the play Fourplay.
The number four play. Yes. Then you'd have to get the script. I think that was the
(10:38):
only way that you'd be able to experience it. Oh, your cool script with our faces on it. Oh, is there a script with your faces on it?
Yeah. Signed, sealed, delivered as well. Well, there we go. Look out for that. Get it, get it. Signed, sealed, delivered, I'm yours!
Excellent. If you're interested in LGBTQ+ representation in musical theatre,
(10:59):
check out our website, www.queermusicals.com for lots more information about musicals
with LGBTQ+ characters.
I think, you know, thinking about how do we make some of these shows more
accessible for people? I think that's really important. And I wanted to talk a
(11:21):
little bit about the shows that you both led. So Why Am I So Single? and Your Lie
in April as well. And thinking about how important those shows were, particularly
for some communities to see themselves represented perhaps for one of the first
times in plays that have been written or have had some input from people who have
the lived experience. And also thinking a little bit about how people can connect
(11:45):
with those shows when the shows are quite short runs or limited runs as well.
But I'd love to know more about your experiences in those shows. So which one
should we do first? Go on Jo. I'll do whatever. Go on then Jo. Yeah, do the best first and then we'll go to Your Lie in April.
Womp, womp, womp. Who wants to see that? And one of the things I love is how as minoritised communities we lift each other up.
(12:10):
Yeah, of course we do. That's so funny. But tell us a little bit about Why Am I So Single? and your involvement in that because you've been on the
podcast a couple of times now. I am, yeah. I'm an honoree, I really am. That's so funny. I deserve a Blue Peter Badge.
Actually, I'll make one for you. Thank you, that would be lovely. So this is kind of like the almost, not the
(12:32):
culmination because there's gonna be so much more to come for you, but actually
watching you go through from Rent and Legally Blonde and then to & Juliet, which we spoke
about last time you were on the podcast. Yeah, that's lovely. And so then you kind of go into Why Am I So Single. So tell us a
little bit about that experience. Oh my gosh. Well, it's a lot really, isn't it? It's quite hard when
(12:53):
people ask me, you know, when people ask you how was it? I think to just summarise it in like words
is like so difficult because it was obviously, you know, it was a dream come true. I mean,
creating a role on the West End that was authentically non-binary and speaking from my
own experience and doing that eight shows a week and seven shows a week actually, because we had
(13:17):
Queen Girl Jordan, who was the alternate. Amazing. Jordan Cambridge Taylor. But yeah,
it was absolutely the most amazing, powerful thing ever. It literally felt like therapy for me. Yeah.
I think the story as well was so prevalent and to have that on stage and to speak about pronouns
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on such a big, in such a big theatre, commercialised in a commercial show, I think was just so
beautiful. And I don't think a lot of people expected it to be what it was. And I think a
lot of people were pleasantly surprised with it. I think it went because, you know, the show was,
(13:58):
the show did close early, you know, in the current climate, trying to get new theatre to work is just
so difficult. But as a whole, it was, you know, it was a success. And like, I think we were reviewed
really well. And yeah, it was just great. It was so fab. I did that from, I knew obviously I met
(14:18):
Lucy on Legally Blonde. And so when I always remember her saying on Legally Blonde, she was
like, I came out to her on that on the show. And I was like, I feel really, I'm struggling a little
bit, you know, with all these male roles. I think I spoke about that the last time. And she was like,
well, she was, and I said, I actually said, I was so nervous to be a non-binary actor in this
(14:40):
industry. I feel like I don't really see anyone that is like kind of doing that, which, you know,
isn't the case now. It's still obviously difficult. You know, there are some challenges, but what was
so nice is from that convo, she was like, well, you know, you never know. She was like, I'm,
we're writing a musical, me and Toby, you should meet my friend Toby, as if I didn't know who that
was. And she was like, you know, we're writing a show for a non-binary character, there's he/
(15:06):
they pronouns, he/they/she. And I always remember having that convo and being like,
oh my God, I'd love to do it. She was like, well, you know, and it kind of was just something that
we spoke about and then never heard of. And then I got asked to do like an R&D, which we learnt the
show in like a week. Yes. And did it. Yeah. And then got asked to do the workshop and then to the
show, it was so quick. I think from that workshop, Kenny Wax, who was a producer said we got offered
(15:32):
ten West End theatres, which aren't my words. That was what he said to us on the first day of
rehearsals. So, you know, it had a really, from the workshop, people were really excited about it.
It was so wonderful. Yeah. So I feel truly, truly honoured and blessed to be that. And also for
the people that came to watch it. I mean, just people like young queer people, just even straight
(15:56):
people and cis people that have come to watch it and said wonderful things and like how they related
to it in a way, you know, it helped them find themselves. I mean, that is just like treasure,
isn't it? I feel like, isn't that why we do it? Yeah, I think so. And I think that's so important.
And across this series, we've had a few episodes where we've talked about Why Am I So Single? And
(16:17):
we've talked about how important moments like 'Disco Ball' were, how important moments like the
scene towards the end where all of us talking to Nancy, finally talking to Nancy about, you know,
what pronoun to use. Yeah, where they say it. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know that I ever expected to
see that in the West End. I think and it came around more quickly than I expected. Oh, it did.
(16:42):
Yeah. And it's and that's fantastic, because however short the run was, it's there now it's
been done now. Yeah, it's you know, and I think that's great. I do wonder whether if it had been
given a little bit more time, whether it might have done the same thing, because Everybody's
Talking About Jamie had the same problem at the beginning, people thought it was going to close
within the first three months, because it took a little bit of time. I think the thing with Single
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was that, you know, we went straight away into a 700 seat venue. Yes. And like that is just bizarre.
I think given the target audience for Single, like these is a younger audience, older people still
came and absolutely loved it. That being said, but unfortunately, the people that were probably
(17:30):
going to watch that show can't afford full priced theatre tickets. And the producers did do a great
job. And the theatre did do a great job of trying to keep the prices down as much as possible.
But you just, you know, theatre can't survive without filling the capacity. And I think maybe
if it had gone somewhere smaller, or done like a bit of a tour beforehand, or whatever, I think
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it would have done great. Because by the end of the run, we were, they were this theatre was sold
out. Yeah. So it was so interesting. And of course, there's still time for hopefully for it to come
back round again. And hopefully I'd love to do it again. I would that would be my dream to do that
again. I think I was it's so rare for an actor to allow you to be so in that element and be so free
(18:16):
in what they're doing. Like I almost felt like I could have done anything. Yeah. And obviously,
you know, there's a script and there's beats but like, you know, it's kind of like once when you've
created something, it's like got your own gloss on it, hasn't it? Yeah, so amazing. It's bizarre.
Yeah. And there were so many people in that cast as well, who, you know, it's such it was even from
(18:37):
outside, I could see what a lovely cast. Oh my god, we're all friends. Yeah, I could actually
meet up with anyone and we could go get a coffee, which is so rare. It's so rare. Yeah, it's
beautiful. And I think also, I mean, one of the things we haven't touched on yet, but that is
really important. Actually, we might have touched on this in one of the episodes, but the importance
of, you know, as well as having a lead non binary character, having a lead female character that in
(19:02):
and the way that she cares for her friend, but also the way that she takes advice from her friend as
well. And that's such an important relationship. We don't see enough. Well, it's always like the
B-line is in movies. And I think the beautiful thing about this was that it was part of the
forefront because that is like, before you have loving relationships, you know, with a partner,
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you have your friends, you know, you have platonic love, you know, and platonic love can be anything.
There's always someone there who, you know, you could maybe call up and ask for advice, you know,
and I think that's what the show highlighted and was like a really beautiful love letter to those
people that, you know, they're with you through thick and thin. And I think that's such a
(19:47):
beautiful thing. Yeah. And Artie as well is a beautiful role. And I think we spoke a little
bit about that with Joshian earlier on in the series as well. And again, the importance of
the intersections there, the fact that it's a bisexual character, usually played by, well,
always played by a black or mixed race actor. And all of those things are really important parts of
(20:10):
representation. And, you know, I'm sure there's a musical out there which is about Artie as well,
waiting to be written. Oh my God, that would be so cool. I could so see that. Yeah. Yeah,
that would be very fun. Shall we make it happen? Let's do that. That'll be so slick. Toby and Lucy,
are you listening? Yeah. What next? Please, please, can I be in it? But yeah, it was,
(20:30):
it was a wonderful show. And again, a real step forward, I think, for representation.
If you want to follow us on social media, you can use queer.musicals on Instagram
or Facebook. Or you can follow me at DrJamesLovelock on Instagram.
If we move on to Your Lie in April as well, there was a similar thing that was going on.
(21:00):
And that's, I don't know how far it's followed through. I hope it carries on following through.
But there was a number of musicals, which were I think a lot of them what came from anime or from
manga, but also from all sorts of different stories from different parts of Asia as well.
And we just had a little kind of run of maybe two or three shows like that, that were doing
(21:22):
concert versions or, you know, had had productions here on Broadway and that sort of thing. Yeah. And
it's something I always really admire the work of RepresentAsian and Ben Armstrong, who's been
pushing for a while alongside other people for more Asian representation in the West End. And
it feels like Your Lie in April was a really important step in that as well.
(21:45):
Yeah. First of all, that was really beautiful, Jo. Yeah, I just feel like I have to say that.
But yeah, I think Your Lie in April was a very big milestone for the East and Southeast Asian,
not just theatre community, but also beyond. And I almost think that there wasn't enough
(22:10):
media coverage about it. I agree. Across the whole theatre board.
Wink wink at a lot of those medias. But anyway, it was a significant milestone because it's the
first time in the entire history of the West End in 2024, that we finally had a full production
of a musical in the West End that had a 100% East and Southeast Asian cast. Yeah.
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But yeah, and it's taken so long to get to that point. I do think our representation has improved
over the years. And like you said, you know, there were like Death Note was a huge stepping
stone as well, that it wasn't a full production, but it was a concert. Yeah. And it was new material.
And especially in the musical world, it's just, it's just was still plagued by like Miss Saigon
(22:57):
and King and I even in 2025. And like, everybody knows they are problematic musicals. But it's like,
it's kind of like the big shows that all us Asian performers have to rely on to have a career
because there's just so little work, new work out there. But yeah, I do think that's improved. And
also like, you know, there are places where like Totoro was a massive success, both critically and
(23:19):
commercially. So yeah, I think I'm very proud of Your Lie In April. And, and it's not just because of
the cast as well. But in terms of the audience, I've never seen so many Asian faces in the audience
of theatre. And that's having done Miss Saigon and other shows as well. Just come out, you step
(23:39):
onto stage, you're like, wow, these people see themselves represented on stage and also young
faces too, because Your Lie In April is based off a manga, you know, it's based on an anime and that,
you know, there's a lot of younger audiences who are into that. So yeah, I think it was very
meaningful. And it just allowed, I think what was important as well with that story is that you had
(24:00):
Asian actors portraying the mum, the dad, the son, the troubled person, the funny guy, the hero,
you know, the weird person, the unlikable person. And it just shows that we are these like complex,
three dimensional characters. Yeah. And I do think like representation has massive social impact
on like, even like affecting all the way to like government policies. Yes. Because subconsciously
(24:23):
affects the way how people are viewed, you know, and the way we're humanised and normalised into
society. So yeah, I felt very honoured to be a part of that project. I'm very proud of what we
achieved. Yeah. It's a beautiful show as well. And it's, I love the fact that it's set in is
almost not quite conservatoire, but some sort of music school, isn't it? Yeah. And it's a really,
(24:45):
I think there's a very specific way that, and again, I hope this isn't a stereotype,
but there's a very specific way that I noticed when I'm working with music students who come
from an Asian background, as opposed to music students who, you know, who come from a white
American background or white British background, the concentration and the focus on the music.
(25:06):
Yeah. Is really, it feels like it's the most important thing in the world. And I love how
that comes across in, in the musical as well. And obviously we see for a lot of the musical,
you know, the, the protagonist isn't playing the music. I mean, by the way, oh my God,
your piano playing. Oh, thank you. It's just so amazing. I can't think of many actors that could
(25:27):
go and, you know, and deliver. He's so talented with the piano. It's actually bizarre. It's
actually quite annoying, isn't it? There was a piano and we were like, play it! He just did this
huge, like grand piano. I was like, this is bizarre. Yeah. Anyway. I mean, the only
thing I can think of that was similar was there was a show about the life of Rachmaninoff,
(25:48):
which I can't remember the name of, which is terrible. Is it Preludes? Preludes. Yeah.
Dave Molloy. Dave Molloy. Yes. It was Dave Molloy. He wrote Great Comet. Yeah. And my friend Tom
Noyes was playing the kind of, they split the character into two. So you had an actor, which was,
Keith Ramsey, and then you had Tom Noyes playing the piano, but to have somebody doing
both is just amazing. And I mean, I guess it's another part of representation, isn't it?
(26:13):
As well, being able to kind of use those talents within a musical as well. Yeah. Justice for the
actor musos. Yeah, absolutely. I have done an actor muso show before, and I do think sometimes
people, I don't know, I think some musicians look down on the ability of actor musos and, it's
(26:34):
good to represent the music, the actor musos and be like, look, we can, we can play, we can play.
Yeah. But also get down and sing and act at the same time. Yeah. But I was very fortunate. I mean,
I very highly doubt that I will ever get to do a role like that again. Like to sing,
act, dance in one number and then like play, I think I played about 10 different numbers across
(27:01):
that musical live. Yeah. And while singing it's, I don't know if I'll ever get to do it again,
but I was very lucky. I was very fortunate. And I just think it was, it was honestly right place,
right time, like the age of the character as well. Like, yeah, I was just very lucky.
But also that's years and years of work. And the same with you, Jo, as well, in terms of finding
(27:22):
a character, you know, a non-binary character that does the comedy in the way that I think,
you know, only a very small number of people can. Jo is funny. Yes. Well, we know that. Giggles
McGee. We call him Zheng Xi Giggles McGee because in foreplay, honestly, sometimes Zheng Xi just looks
my face and laughs. I think we need to dig into that. Your comedic timing is just, I love comedy.
(27:46):
Yeah. I think that's why I do like, like do quite a lot of comedy. But the truth is I also
find it very funny. Yeah. But Jo's comedic timing. Oh yeah. It's the delivery.
And you can change it as well, can't you? Cause I've seen some shows I've seen you in multiple
times and you do things differently, just maybe a different stress or different timing. And I can
(28:11):
imagine how difficult that is to be on stage with you when you do something that's a little bit
unexpected. Probably. Yeah. I mean, it's so nice, isn't it? Sometimes when you're in a like,
that's another thing about these things. And to be so lucky about creating them yourself
is that when you, when you are given that chance to do that, you know, it's not something you take
(28:34):
lightly. Like you just said that I don't think I'll ever get this opportunity again. So genuinely,
like every show and you want people want to like what you're doing and you want the show to do
well. So it was like every night you just feel, you know, it's like you're playing. Yeah. And I
think that's what's so beautiful, especially when you do comedy as well. It's so fun because you're
(28:57):
like when you have actors on stage that are all listening to each other, genuinely listening
and in it and kind of making choices that vary. That is so exciting. Like it's so electric. That's
literally what you want to watch, isn't it? And I think that's the beautiful thing about that. So I
(29:17):
also think that's probably why it was so fun to do as well, because so much was at stake. Yeah.
The payoff is immediate as well with comedy and theatre. It's like, do they laugh or not? Whereas
with drama, you're a bit like, are they sad? Are they happy? Do they laugh? You can't hear it. You
can't hear it. Where's the laughter? You just hear it and you're like, OK, I landed that joke.
(29:37):
But with Your Lie in April, there was a moment in the middle of the show, which nearly always got a
standing ovation, was there not? Yeah, it was a big piano piece that was four and a half minutes.
Yeah. But that to me is amazing as well. But it comes, like we were saying, it comes from
allowing everything about you to be out there on the stage.
(30:01):
This podcast series is part of a larger research project funded by the British Academy Early
Career Researchers Network Seed Fund on queer gain in queer infused musical theatre practice.
There will be a series of online events from September to December this year that explore
this research further. For more information, follow DrJamesLovelock or queer.musicals on
Instagram. I really want to ban the word lucky from you two about these things because you
(30:27):
this is what people deserve is for them to be able to shine and for people not to put them
into boxes and say, well, unfortunately, this is the way it's been done all of these years.
You know, we need more places where people can expand and you have writing teams and creative
teams that are able to kind of go with that. And so many of the people I've spoken to this series,
(30:51):
I mean, we're talking to Robyn Grant from Unfortunate, Chris Bush, who wrote Standing
at the Sky's Edge. And there is such a big amount of respect for actors, which I'm only starting to
detect recently. And I'm starting to detect more from queer and female writers and directors,
particularly because I think, yeah, I think there is something about working in those
(31:16):
sort of cast. I mean, I don't know whether the same thing might be said from working in any
minoritized community, when suddenly you find yourself in a group with people who understand
who you are. I've literally just got goosebumps because genuinely, that is what, for me,
working on Single, there was no dominating energy. Yeah, it was a completely safe room full of
(31:42):
femness, gayness, queerness, transness, womanhood, like it was all this beautiful thing.
And there wasn't any, and that goes in all areas of departments. And even like, the cis straight
(32:03):
men that were on that job were some of the loveliest humans, like Paul Gatehouse, who was
a sound designer, was the sweetest human ever. And I think genuinely, that is what, when you're in
those environments, you know, it's so rare. So it's almost like magic. And it feels, you know,
you're like, we all knew how important this story was. And we all felt really safe with each other.
(32:29):
And it just allows you to be yourself and expand in ways that maybe sometimes it when you're not
given that it doesn't do that. I don't know about you. No, absolutely. I think, you know,
Your Lie In April being the first fully South and East Asian cast, I've never experienced anything.
It was like, I, yeah, I don't know. I've just never experienced it before. You don't apologize
(32:51):
for your culture. You don't have to explain. I think similar with like, Why Am I So Single,
you don't have to explain yourself. You don't have to explain the food I bring in, don't explain my
upbringing, how my parents brought me up and like our languages. And then I think you do feel this
extra sense of camaraderie when you know you're doing like a show that is a huge milestone,
especially in terms of representation. There's this team spirit thing that, you know,
(33:15):
doesn't even have to be riled up and talked about. You just feel it and you feel it.
And, you know, like you said, banning the word lucky, but, you know, as the people that are
then given those chances, I guess that is lucky. How often do you come to work
and you're arraigned? I guess that's what I'm, I guess, you know, we work hard to get to where we
(33:39):
want to be. But I guess in those scenarios, I'm like, I'm aware that a lot, not a lot of people
have had that opportunity or can have that opportunity. And I think, so, you know,
it's beautiful. And from these things, the opportunities is then given to us, you know,
if I hadn't have done Single, I probably wouldn't have done Fourplay and I wouldn't have done
whatever. So yeah, it's, I think it goes hand in hand. I do, I do think we all work hard
(34:04):
and I think there is, I guess, I guess what's good to, I guess on the flip side to say it's
not about luck. I think it's, it's useful to say that as a motivator for people who want to go into
the industry because it is a lot of grafting and like, Jo, you graft a lot. And like, you know,
when I did Your Lie In April, like that piano piece was like four hours a day alone, like just
(34:25):
practicing crap, but I didn't have a life. Yeah. Basically. Why, why am I, why do you have no life?
Why do I have no life? Your life in April. Babe, no life in April. You don't, but also that,
you know, it's your moment. You take, you do what you do to get by. I mean,
(34:46):
I still would do it in a heartbeat, even though it was the hardest thing I think I've ever done
in my life. And I probably wouldn't ever do anything as hard as that. Yeah. Same. I, again,
the thought of if I had a show tonight, like puts fear into my heart. I don't know if I could do it.
I actually, you know, really funny. So I was at home the other day. This is actually probably a
(35:06):
bit embarrassing, but I was cleaning the living room and I was on my Spotify and randomly I had
it on a mix and Disco Ball came on. You tried to sing your own track. So I tried to sing my own
track on Spotify. And I did you know, I sounded awful. I actually sounded awful. And I was like,
girl, if that doesn't point how hard I worked, like it was muscular. My voice was so muscular.
(35:32):
I don't dare to sing the songs from Your Lie. It's crazy. It's crazy. I've got the recording.
I'm like, never, never singing along. I literally couldn't. Like the way I'm like,
my voice was thick. And I'm like, I think obviously we've done a play as well. So
I'm not even having to. It's a bit different. Yeah. Having a little cutesy little. You'll be
back into it. You'll be back into it. One day. One day. But God, it's just so funny, isn't it?
(35:53):
It is. We're athletes. I felt like an athlete on that job. And I felt like I was actually like,
there was so many things that I could not do because I had work to do.
Oh my gosh. I just thought of a quote though. Yeah. About hard work and luck.
That famous quote. It's not my quote. Share and care. The famous quote is
the harder I work, the luckier I get. The harder I work, the luckier.
(36:15):
I wish I came up with it, but no, it's not mine. But I do think about it.
Yeah, I think the other thing that I'm trying to get at is that I don't want people to feel
lucky for having spaces which are devoted to their communities. There's part of me,
(36:36):
I'm so happy that I've had so many guests on here talk about how wonderful it's been to be in
a queer space or a space, you know, any spaces which involve them and their communities.
Last series, I spoke to Josh Castille, who's a deaf actor from Chicago. Josh was talking about
how important it is for him to work with the deaf community because often on a job he is the only
(36:58):
deaf actor or one of only a couple of them. Is he the one who did Spring Awakening?
Yes. The Deaf West one.
Yes, because you did that role as well, didn't you? You played Ernst in Spring Awakening.
Was he Ernst or Hanschen?
He was Ernst.
Oh my gosh.
Yes, he was Ernst. Yes, he was.
We should meet.
I want to meet this person. I'm deaf. I love that.
I'd love to meet more deaf actors. I never, ever meet anyone. I think I've spoke to like
(37:25):
one or two people but I've never actually worked with them and I'm like, oh my god,
it's so crazy not even to have a... people get it immediately. It's bizarre.
And I think there are so many things that are hidden parts of us as well that we,
you know, that we haven't had that sort of representation or that community.
I don't, yeah. I very rarely talk about it.
I mean, I'm the same. The thing that I don't talk about is being gay. No,
(37:47):
I talk about that all the time. The thing that I don't...
You're gay.
Yeah, I know. Can you imagine? But I don't talk about the fact that I have an invisible
disability, which is ulcerative colitis. Mainly because, you know, you don't really want to be
going talking to everyone about your bowels. But it's also a thing because the other thing about
this condition is that it makes me very tired. And so there are all sorts of things that are
kind of a knock on and very often, I find myself having to explain that and people are like, well,
(38:11):
it doesn't show. Well, no, because I have doctors that are supporting and all this sort of thing as
well. But actually, you know, finding other people, particularly within an industry like
theatre industry, it can be really hard to find, you know, people. I mean, I'm not expecting there
to be, you know, a massive ulcerative colitis musical at any stage, you never know.
(38:33):
Well, I might write it, we'll see. But yeah, but you know, these things are really important. And I
think, you know, finding community is really important as well. And if we sort of moving
back to Fourplay again, you know, the fact that that the King's Head, one of the things it does
very well is build community, I think, particularly for gay men, but for, you know, hopefully aspiring
to build community for the queer community as well. And, you know, so seeing those sorts of
(38:58):
shows is really important. And I think it kind of leads me to another question that I wanted to ask
you, which is where do you hope that the theatre or musical theatre goes in the future? What sorts
of shows would you like to see? Or what sorts of shows have not been written yet that you would
really like to be part of? Oh, wow. What do you think, girl? Well, I just think, from a topic
(39:21):
point of view, I just think the more, you know, just anything that's not been explored yet,
especially for marginalized communities, I think there's still a lot of work to be done.
But also the more like diverse and, you know, stories that we see that we've never heard of,
the more exciting the art is, because that's what art is, is constantly evolving and constantly
(39:44):
exploring humanity. And then I guess from like a structural point of view, I guess just like the
more musical theatre just explores different genres and different ways of telling stories,
you know, like rap became a thing, like, I don't know, 10, how many years ago with, you know, and
then, you know, different kinds of musical elements. I just think like art just needs to grow
(40:06):
with society. And just the more you explore, the more exciting. Yeah.
Yeah, I'd really like to see some more queer Asian characters as well.
Oh, absolutely.
I think there's there's, I mean, I have mentioned Interstate on this podcast so many times where
there's a queer trans masculine character and a queer lesbian character who are kind of the two
(40:28):
protagonists of that shows. But for me to be mentioning the same musical for the fourth year
running, you know, that has a queer Asian protagonist is not ideal. And so I'd love to see
more kind of stories that allow that representation.
They were developing one in New York. Jason Robert Brown was writing one.
(40:49):
Yes. Is it in the midnight?
No.
In the Midnight Garden.
No, it's...
Are you going to play Iggle Piggle, babe? Congrats.
They were adapting...
The Garden of Good and Evil. It's something about that, is it not?
Oh, I was thinking of a different project. Maybe there is one. But I know they were adapting the
film Farewell, My Concubine, which I think was the first, I don't know, Chinese or Hong Kong film to
(41:16):
like get a nomination or win like the Oscar for best foreign film or something. Those are like
queer Asian characters. I don't know what's happened to it, though.
Yeah, I shall find out.
Jason Robert Brown, what's happening?
Yeah, diva. For me, I think if someone has lived an experience,
(41:37):
I think it's worth telling. I think, isn't that what art and stories are about? Like,
you know, if someone has lived that experience, I can guarantee on this planet someone will relate
to it. I think we're all connected. We're all more connected than we think as humans. And I
actually think like stories that haven't been told yet are sometimes some of the most exciting ones,
(42:00):
if it's done well, like, you know, it's like that is literally sometimes where all these like
trailblazer of shows come from. It's from these new ideas, isn't it? So,
yeah, I don't know. I'd love to see a lot more queer working class. I'd love to see a queer
working class story on stage. I'd love to see that on TV. In fact, there's a series coming out now on
(42:21):
BBC called What It Feels Like for a Girl, which is super beautiful. And like, that is the first time
where I was like, Jesus Christ, that is, it feels very similar to me. And I thought it was really
beautiful. I'd love to see a lot more of that on stage. I'd love to see more northern accents on
(42:41):
stage. For me and who I am as a human, I'm kind of saying like, what is gender? Yeah. And so like,
I, for me and what I do, I don't see myself playing anything in particular, you know,
if the character fits me, then I'm, and I'm right for it. I would love to do it. Like,
I would love to play, you know, typically male roles, typically female roles, if I can, like,
(43:07):
and, you know, so, yeah, yeah, that's what I would love to do. Like, I'd love to do like,
pre 1960s, like I trained in legit. That's the school I went to. I'd love to do a musical that
was like, where I'm singing classically, but I'm like some kind of non binary character.
Or I'm, you know, I'm doing one or the other that I think that just would be so cool.
(43:30):
It was such a beautiful version of Oklahoma, not the Daniel Fish version. It was a different
version that was done at the Oregon Shakespeare Festival a few years ago, where they gender
swapped Curly, and they gender swapped Ado Annie. So you all gay couples at the heart of it was
(43:51):
played by a trans female actor. And it's just, oh, I'm so happy that the Rodgers and Hammerstein
Foundation gave permission. Yeah. And I hope that that kind of becomes something that people are
able to work with. Like you say, it doesn't necessarily have to be that you make the story
a queer story, although do that make the story a queer story, because that'd be fab. Yeah,
anything you just, well, yeah, I think even like, Single, if you also, even if you look at the
(44:17):
ensemble for that, everyone played everything. Yes. You know, no one, girls didn't play girls
and boys didn't play boys. Because also what's interesting about that is, as the opposite,
sometimes the opposite sex, whether you're cis male or cis female, you have, you, you know,
you know, that you almost know that because you've received that because as the opposite sometimes.
(44:40):
So it's so interesting, like putting these people and having people who wouldn't normally play these
roles, do their view on it. And it was especially in comedy, you know, I think you can kind of take
it to the extreme, but I just thought, yeah, like that was in a clear example of some light and
no one but a denial it, and it was really great. You know, that would be cool. It's been so great
(45:01):
talking to you both today. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. And thank you everybody for
listening at home, and we'll see you soon. Thank you very much. Bye. Bye. Thanks, James.
Thank you for listening to represent the queer musical theatre podcast.
The research for this series is funded by the British Academy Early Career Researchers Network
(45:25):
seed fund and supported by Sheffield Hallam University. The episodes were recorded at
the Content is Queen podcast studios at the Makerversity at Somerset house.
For more information, go to contentisqueen.org.
That's all for this series. Thank you so much for listening. And don't forget to
explore our previous episodes on your favorite podcast service. Hope to see you again soon.
(45:58):
I'm just laughing now about Iggy Piggle. Ickle pickle. Not Ickle Pickle. Iggle Piggle.
I don't know. Ickle pickle? You
just wait till we get back to the theatre. Iggle Piggle and the Ninky Nonk. What are you talking about?
Oh, you've got so much fun to come. Like, yeah, it's like a British culture thing. Yeah,
(46:21):
CBeebies. Yes, because there's a gap in my chidlhood. Yeah, I grew up half my life in
Malaysia. Yeah, he was in Malaysia. I missed out on Iggle Piggle. Well,
we will fill that gap. Thank you. I do know Peppa Pig. There we go. There we are.
You're listening to Represent, the queer musical theatre podcast. My name is Dr.
(00:05):
James Lovelock and I'm an academic and a huge musical theatre fan exploring the
representation of all things queer in the musical theatre industry.
In today's episode we speak to West End leading man Zheng Xi Yong and West End
leading they-dy Jo Foster about their recent performances in Fourplay at the
Kings Head Theatre and their roles leading Your Lie in April and Why Am I
(00:27):
So Single, respectively. We discuss queer, non-binary and Asian representation and
start an unsubstantiated rumor that Jason Robert Brown is working on an
adaptation of the CBeebies series In The Night Garden.
As always you can follow us on your favourite podcast platform and don't
(00:49):
forget to share this episode on social media. Let's get started.
Hi I'm Zheng Xi. I'm currently playing the character of Pete in Fourplay and last
year I did a musical called Your Lie in April in the West End. My name is Jo
Foster. I'm playing the role of Andy in Fourplay at the Kings Head and I was
(01:13):
recently in a production called Why Am I So Single where I played the role of
Oliver. I also use they/them pronouns. So get it right. We will do our best.
Yes, lovely. Excellent. So let's start by talking about Fourplay which is the show
that you've just finished at the Kings Head Theatre. Well essentially the
the plot of Fourplay is about these two characters called Rafe and Pete. They're
(01:39):
in a seven-year monogamous relationship and they, you know, things start to
go a bit stale so they ask their friend Michael if he will sleep with them
separately but not tell his partner Andy who is me and essentially Andy invites
(02:02):
them all round of an evening and it's kind of like this cat-and-mouse chase
until, you know, Andy outrightly asks them why didn't you pick me? And then
obviously the whole plot transpires and it's kind of like this story which on
its surface level you think is about sex but actually it's all the topics and
(02:24):
themes around sex like intimacy and then honesty and trust and loyalty within
relationships and intimacy. So yeah, it's really cool. It's a really cool show.
It's really funny and it's like a comedy-drama. But yeah, I think that's the
premise of it covered. How did you get into it, Zheng Xi? How did I get into it?
(02:48):
How did you just suddenly fall into this? I auditioned, as we all do, as actors.
Yeah, an audition came through and I met with Jack Sein, our director, and Jake
Brunger who's the writer and I did one round of audition and some people might
(03:09):
have had more depending on the jigsaw of the show and then the offer came through.
How about you, Jo? The same, girl. Yeah, just one round, bish-bash-bosh. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.
Apparently that's how it is these days. No, it's literally not. Yeah, I think I, yeah, literally did it and
then found the day, the day after, the day of. I think it was the day. Wow, that's
(03:33):
really quick. Yeah, really cool. And that's great as well because it's, you know, it's
an interesting show in terms of the fact that the mixture of characters that
you've got there and also the the updating that they've done to the
original as well. Yeah. Which I guess kind of fits around the people that they've
cast because actually whoever you cast in whatever roles is going to have an
(03:53):
impact on the way that the story is seen. You know, we have a show now which does
include different genders, we've got a show now that includes interracial
relationships and all that sort of thing. Yeah, yeah. Did you discuss those sorts of
things during the process or are they just things that kind of you
just see where they take you? Mm-hmm. Well for me it was very spoken about in
(04:14):
actually my first round of auditions when we went in. It was, you know, they
were, they wanted to create the role of Andy. They wanted Andy to be someone that
was genderqueer. Yeah. Yeah, I guess for them they were kind of trying to figure
out how much and, you know, how little because I guess all the characters are
(04:35):
so open to interpretation. So I think they saw a lot of people. Yeah. And
also, like, it was a huge conversation of do you want to, you know, it's so
sometimes it's quite hard for, like, trans actors to, like, go into these spaces and
have to be the person to speak on these things and these topics and it's
(04:56):
like, you know, and I think in my, in the audition it was like, would you feel
comfortable with this? You know, how far are you willing to go with it? And for me
I'm quite open about it. It's not something I bother with. I mean, obviously
sometimes it can get a bit tiring but, you know, this was already something that
was kind of set. And it's beautiful as well because we don't actually talk
(05:18):
about, you know, their identity. They just are someone who is non-binary and they
use their own pronouns and that's never really addressed in the show. Yes.
However, you know, I guess the premise of it can kind of hint to that. Yeah, it kind of
heightens certain moments, doesn't it? Particularly the moment you mentioned
earlier about why didn't you choose me? There's something, I think, in that
(05:43):
moment that's really kind of changes the flavor of the story. Yeah, and you can kind of
see that in the relationships between all the characters and who they are, I
think. Yeah. No, yeah, yeah. I think they have taken into
consideration, like in my case, like my ethnicity. I don't think so much in the
audition process, actually. It was more about the staging of it. Yeah. Because I
(06:05):
don't think a lot of the language of the show had to be updated in a way to
accommodate an interracial relationship. And from what I know from past
productions, they have had already had ethnic diverse casts. But I think there
were like a few changes that were made to, you know, be a bit more, I guess,
universal, so that anyone can relate to it. So one of them was like the name
(06:29):
change of Peter's surname. It used to be Peter Mitchell. Yeah. And I just was like,
I don't look like a Peter Mitchell. Phil Mitchell. I know. I know. I think you do. You've got a bit of a look of him.
Mitchell. Well, yeah, I contributed the surname Lee. Because Lee can be an Asian
surname, but also it could be like a Caucasian. Yeah. Like any, I think any
(06:52):
ethnicity. I think Lee's such a common surname. Love. So that was one of them.
And then the other thing with the staging, I guess, is more like the portrayal of
queer Asian men and the stereotyping of queer Asian men as necessarily effeminate
and submissive. So that was a discussion that I had with Jack, the director, about
(07:15):
adding a scene, or not adding a scene, but like directing the scene or
choreographing the cheating scene in a way where Pete, as an Asian man, is more
dominant. I thought it was very important because it does affect people
subconsciously of their view on Asian men. Even like non-queer Asian men, I
think there is a perception that we are more like submissive and feminine. And
(07:38):
there's nothing wrong with people being like that. No. But it's a problem when, as
a general demographic, people just assume that's your identity. Yeah, absolutely. And
again, I think there's some interesting things in there. I mean, there was, there's
a moment quite early on where Pete's talking about their sexual preferences
and wanting to be, I don't know what they say they want to be dominated, or whether
they, whether it's just they want that sort of role play in what they're doing.
(08:02):
Yeah. And so it's, it's interesting when you take something that's not
necessarily been written with an Asian character in mind, and then you think,
well, hold on, how does this work with the lived experience that perhaps you
bring to it, or the experiences that you know from other people from that
community as well. Yeah, and I think, I think the creative team have been very
(08:24):
open to these discussions. Yeah, they've been trying to, like, you know, get it as
right as possible. Yeah, they were so fab. It's really nice working with a team that is
actually just open to having these conversations, and they were so willing
with what, you know, we were all coming in with, they wanted us to come in with our
own ideas and our thoughts and feelings, and I think that's actually come across
(08:46):
in it. I think it's quite a, I think it's quite a fabulous piece of theatre, if I say so myself.
Yes. A fabulous piece of queer theatre, actually. Absolutely, and it's one of the
things that we've mentioned so many times. So this is, you're on the season
finale, which is terribly exciting for us. Oh my god, wait, what does that mean? We are
the finale? You are the finale. Oh, we could have been anything that we wanted to be.
(09:10):
There's the whole of that song's been recorded, but we're just going to keep one line in.
Stay tuned for the end. But one of the things that we've been talking about
throughout this series is that there's very little work in the West End at the
moment, which is specifically queer. I mean, we've just got Born With Teeth,
which is opening, but there's not really very many other plays or musicals in the
(09:32):
West End at the moment since the fabulous Why Am I So Single? So one of
the things that I'm encouraging people who listen to this podcast to do is to
go and see shows which are on at perhaps fringe venues or off-West End venues or regional venues.
It's so important, so important. Support queer theatre. Yeah. I mean, it's so hard, isn't it,
with the current climate. Ticket prices are so expensive, but I think if you can,
(09:54):
absolutely do it. Yeah. I think it's one of the other intersections that I'm
interested in as well is between being queer and being working class or being
queer and, you know, coming from backgrounds where you wouldn't
necessarily go to the theatre. And it is one of the things that worries me is how
expensive it is for people to be able to go to the theatre and see shows. And how
(10:16):
do we make these sort of shows more accessible? I think it's particularly
with plays it's more difficult because you can't just put the original cast
album of a play out there. So if you want to know more about Fourplay, then you'd
have to... Sorry? Excuse you. I mean, the play Fourplay. If you wanted to know more about the play Fourplay.
The number four play. Yes. Then you'd have to get the script. I think that was the
(10:38):
only way that you'd be able to experience it. Oh, your cool script with our faces on it. Oh, is there a script with your faces on it?
Yeah. Signed, sealed, delivered as well. Well, there we go. Look out for that. Get it, get it. Signed, sealed, delivered, I'm yours!
Excellent. If you're interested in LGBTQ+ representation in musical theatre,
(10:59):
check out our website, www.queermusicals.com for lots more information about musicals
with LGBTQ+ characters.
I think, you know, thinking about how do we make some of these shows more
accessible for people? I think that's really important. And I wanted to talk a
(11:21):
little bit about the shows that you both led. So Why Am I So Single? and Your Lie
in April as well. And thinking about how important those shows were, particularly
for some communities to see themselves represented perhaps for one of the first
times in plays that have been written or have had some input from people who have
the lived experience. And also thinking a little bit about how people can connect
(11:45):
with those shows when the shows are quite short runs or limited runs as well.
But I'd love to know more about your experiences in those shows. So which one
should we do first? Go on Jo. I'll do whatever. Go on then Jo. Yeah, do the best first and then we'll go to Your Lie in April.
Womp, womp, womp. Who wants to see that? And one of the things I love is how as minoritised communities we lift each other up.
(12:10):
Yeah, of course we do. That's so funny. But tell us a little bit about Why Am I So Single? and your involvement in that because you've been on the
podcast a couple of times now. I am, yeah. I'm an honoree, I really am. That's so funny. I deserve a Blue Peter Badge.
Actually, I'll make one for you. Thank you, that would be lovely. So this is kind of like the almost, not the
(12:32):
culmination because there's gonna be so much more to come for you, but actually
watching you go through from Rent and Legally Blonde and then to & Juliet, which we spoke
about last time you were on the podcast. Yeah, that's lovely. And so then you kind of go into Why Am I So Single. So tell us a
little bit about that experience. Oh my gosh. Well, it's a lot really, isn't it? It's quite hard when
(12:53):
people ask me, you know, when people ask you how was it? I think to just summarise it in like words
is like so difficult because it was obviously, you know, it was a dream come true. I mean,
creating a role on the West End that was authentically non-binary and speaking from my
own experience and doing that eight shows a week and seven shows a week actually, because we had
(13:17):
Queen Girl Jordan, who was the alternate. Amazing. Jordan Cambridge Taylor. But yeah,
it was absolutely the most amazing, powerful thing ever. It literally felt like therapy for me. Yeah.
I think the story as well was so prevalent and to have that on stage and to speak about pronouns
(13:38):
on such a big, in such a big theatre, commercialised in a commercial show, I think was just so
beautiful. And I don't think a lot of people expected it to be what it was. And I think a
lot of people were pleasantly surprised with it. I think it went because, you know, the show was,
(13:58):
the show did close early, you know, in the current climate, trying to get new theatre to work is just
so difficult. But as a whole, it was, you know, it was a success. And like, I think we were reviewed
really well. And yeah, it was just great. It was so fab. I did that from, I knew obviously I met
(14:18):
Lucy on Legally Blonde. And so when I always remember her saying on Legally Blonde, she was
like, I came out to her on that on the show. And I was like, I feel really, I'm struggling a little
bit, you know, with all these male roles. I think I spoke about that the last time. And she was like,
well, she was, and I said, I actually said, I was so nervous to be a non-binary actor in this
(14:40):
industry. I feel like I don't really see anyone that is like kind of doing that, which, you know,
isn't the case now. It's still obviously difficult. You know, there are some challenges, but what was
so nice is from that convo, she was like, well, you know, you never know. She was like, I'm,
we're writing a musical, me and Toby, you should meet my friend Toby, as if I didn't know who that
was. And she was like, you know, we're writing a show for a non-binary character, there's he/
(15:06):
they pronouns, he/they/she. And I always remember having that convo and being like,
oh my God, I'd love to do it. She was like, well, you know, and it kind of was just something that
we spoke about and then never heard of. And then I got asked to do like an R&D, which we learnt the
show in like a week. Yes. And did it. Yeah. And then got asked to do the workshop and then to the
show, it was so quick. I think from that workshop, Kenny Wax, who was a producer said we got offered
(15:32):
ten West End theatres, which aren't my words. That was what he said to us on the first day of
rehearsals. So, you know, it had a really, from the workshop, people were really excited about it.
It was so wonderful. Yeah. So I feel truly, truly honoured and blessed to be that. And also for
the people that came to watch it. I mean, just people like young queer people, just even straight
(15:56):
people and cis people that have come to watch it and said wonderful things and like how they related
to it in a way, you know, it helped them find themselves. I mean, that is just like treasure,
isn't it? I feel like, isn't that why we do it? Yeah, I think so. And I think that's so important.
And across this series, we've had a few episodes where we've talked about Why Am I So Single? And
(16:17):
we've talked about how important moments like 'Disco Ball' were, how important moments like the
scene towards the end where all of us talking to Nancy, finally talking to Nancy about, you know,
what pronoun to use. Yeah, where they say it. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know that I ever expected to
see that in the West End. I think and it came around more quickly than I expected. Oh, it did.
(16:42):
Yeah. And it's and that's fantastic, because however short the run was, it's there now it's
been done now. Yeah, it's you know, and I think that's great. I do wonder whether if it had been
given a little bit more time, whether it might have done the same thing, because Everybody's
Talking About Jamie had the same problem at the beginning, people thought it was going to close
within the first three months, because it took a little bit of time. I think the thing with Single
(17:07):
was that, you know, we went straight away into a 700 seat venue. Yes. And like that is just bizarre.
I think given the target audience for Single, like these is a younger audience, older people still
came and absolutely loved it. That being said, but unfortunately, the people that were probably
(17:30):
going to watch that show can't afford full priced theatre tickets. And the producers did do a great
job. And the theatre did do a great job of trying to keep the prices down as much as possible.
But you just, you know, theatre can't survive without filling the capacity. And I think maybe
if it had gone somewhere smaller, or done like a bit of a tour beforehand, or whatever, I think
(17:50):
it would have done great. Because by the end of the run, we were, they were this theatre was sold
out. Yeah. So it was so interesting. And of course, there's still time for hopefully for it to come
back round again. And hopefully I'd love to do it again. I would that would be my dream to do that
again. I think I was it's so rare for an actor to allow you to be so in that element and be so free
(18:16):
in what they're doing. Like I almost felt like I could have done anything. Yeah. And obviously,
you know, there's a script and there's beats but like, you know, it's kind of like once when you've
created something, it's like got your own gloss on it, hasn't it? Yeah, so amazing. It's bizarre.
Yeah. And there were so many people in that cast as well, who, you know, it's such it was even from
(18:37):
outside, I could see what a lovely cast. Oh my god, we're all friends. Yeah, I could actually
meet up with anyone and we could go get a coffee, which is so rare. It's so rare. Yeah, it's
beautiful. And I think also, I mean, one of the things we haven't touched on yet, but that is
really important. Actually, we might have touched on this in one of the episodes, but the importance
of, you know, as well as having a lead non binary character, having a lead female character that in
(19:02):
and the way that she cares for her friend, but also the way that she takes advice from her friend as
well. And that's such an important relationship. We don't see enough. Well, it's always like the
B-line is in movies. And I think the beautiful thing about this was that it was part of the
forefront because that is like, before you have loving relationships, you know, with a partner,
(19:25):
you have your friends, you know, you have platonic love, you know, and platonic love can be anything.
There's always someone there who, you know, you could maybe call up and ask for advice, you know,
and I think that's what the show highlighted and was like a really beautiful love letter to those
people that, you know, they're with you through thick and thin. And I think that's such a
(19:47):
beautiful thing. Yeah. And Artie as well is a beautiful role. And I think we spoke a little
bit about that with Joshian earlier on in the series as well. And again, the importance of
the intersections there, the fact that it's a bisexual character, usually played by, well,
always played by a black or mixed race actor. And all of those things are really important parts of
(20:10):
representation. And, you know, I'm sure there's a musical out there which is about Artie as well,
waiting to be written. Oh my God, that would be so cool. I could so see that. Yeah. Yeah,
that would be very fun. Shall we make it happen? Let's do that. That'll be so slick. Toby and Lucy,
are you listening? Yeah. What next? Please, please, can I be in it? But yeah, it was,
(20:30):
it was a wonderful show. And again, a real step forward, I think, for representation.
If you want to follow us on social media, you can use queer.musicals on Instagram
or Facebook. Or you can follow me at DrJamesLovelock on Instagram.
If we move on to Your Lie in April as well, there was a similar thing that was going on.
(21:00):
And that's, I don't know how far it's followed through. I hope it carries on following through.
But there was a number of musicals, which were I think a lot of them what came from anime or from
manga, but also from all sorts of different stories from different parts of Asia as well.
And we just had a little kind of run of maybe two or three shows like that, that were doing
(21:22):
concert versions or, you know, had had productions here on Broadway and that sort of thing. Yeah. And
it's something I always really admire the work of RepresentAsian and Ben Armstrong, who's been
pushing for a while alongside other people for more Asian representation in the West End. And
it feels like Your Lie in April was a really important step in that as well.
(21:45):
Yeah. First of all, that was really beautiful, Jo. Yeah, I just feel like I have to say that.
But yeah, I think Your Lie in April was a very big milestone for the East and Southeast Asian,
not just theatre community, but also beyond. And I almost think that there wasn't enough
(22:10):
media coverage about it. I agree. Across the whole theatre board.
Wink wink at a lot of those medias. But anyway, it was a significant milestone because it's the
first time in the entire history of the West End in 2024, that we finally had a full production
of a musical in the West End that had a 100% East and Southeast Asian cast. Yeah.
(22:33):
But yeah, and it's taken so long to get to that point. I do think our representation has improved
over the years. And like you said, you know, there were like Death Note was a huge stepping
stone as well, that it wasn't a full production, but it was a concert. Yeah. And it was new material.
And especially in the musical world, it's just, it's just was still plagued by like Miss Saigon
(22:57):
and King and I even in 2025. And like, everybody knows they are problematic musicals. But it's like,
it's kind of like the big shows that all us Asian performers have to rely on to have a career
because there's just so little work, new work out there. But yeah, I do think that's improved. And
also like, you know, there are places where like Totoro was a massive success, both critically and
(23:19):
commercially. So yeah, I think I'm very proud of Your Lie In April. And, and it's not just because of
the cast as well. But in terms of the audience, I've never seen so many Asian faces in the audience
of theatre. And that's having done Miss Saigon and other shows as well. Just come out, you step
(23:39):
onto stage, you're like, wow, these people see themselves represented on stage and also young
faces too, because Your Lie In April is based off a manga, you know, it's based on an anime and that,
you know, there's a lot of younger audiences who are into that. So yeah, I think it was very
meaningful. And it just allowed, I think what was important as well with that story is that you had
(24:00):
Asian actors portraying the mum, the dad, the son, the troubled person, the funny guy, the hero,
you know, the weird person, the unlikable person. And it just shows that we are these like complex,
three dimensional characters. Yeah. And I do think like representation has massive social impact
on like, even like affecting all the way to like government policies. Yes. Because subconsciously
(24:23):
affects the way how people are viewed, you know, and the way we're humanised and normalised into
society. So yeah, I felt very honoured to be a part of that project. I'm very proud of what we
achieved. Yeah. It's a beautiful show as well. And it's, I love the fact that it's set in is
almost not quite conservatoire, but some sort of music school, isn't it? Yeah. And it's a really,
(24:45):
I think there's a very specific way that, and again, I hope this isn't a stereotype,
but there's a very specific way that I noticed when I'm working with music students who come
from an Asian background, as opposed to music students who, you know, who come from a white
American background or white British background, the concentration and the focus on the music.
(25:06):
Yeah. Is really, it feels like it's the most important thing in the world. And I love how
that comes across in, in the musical as well. And obviously we see for a lot of the musical,
you know, the, the protagonist isn't playing the music. I mean, by the way, oh my God,
your piano playing. Oh, thank you. It's just so amazing. I can't think of many actors that could
(25:27):
go and, you know, and deliver. He's so talented with the piano. It's actually bizarre. It's
actually quite annoying, isn't it? There was a piano and we were like, play it! He just did this
huge, like grand piano. I was like, this is bizarre. Yeah. Anyway. I mean, the only
thing I can think of that was similar was there was a show about the life of Rachmaninoff,
(25:48):
which I can't remember the name of, which is terrible. Is it Preludes? Preludes. Yeah.
Dave Molloy. Dave Molloy. Yes. It was Dave Molloy. He wrote Great Comet. Yeah. And my friend Tom
Noyes was playing the kind of, they split the character into two. So you had an actor, which was,
Keith Ramsey, and then you had Tom Noyes playing the piano, but to have somebody doing
both is just amazing. And I mean, I guess it's another part of representation, isn't it?
(26:13):
As well, being able to kind of use those talents within a musical as well. Yeah. Justice for the
actor musos. Yeah, absolutely. I have done an actor muso show before, and I do think sometimes
people, I don't know, I think some musicians look down on the ability of actor musos and, it's
(26:34):
good to represent the music, the actor musos and be like, look, we can, we can play, we can play.
Yeah. But also get down and sing and act at the same time. Yeah. But I was very fortunate. I mean,
I very highly doubt that I will ever get to do a role like that again. Like to sing,
act, dance in one number and then like play, I think I played about 10 different numbers across
(27:01):
that musical live. Yeah. And while singing it's, I don't know if I'll ever get to do it again,
but I was very lucky. I was very fortunate. And I just think it was, it was honestly right place,
right time, like the age of the character as well. Like, yeah, I was just very lucky.
But also that's years and years of work. And the same with you, Jo, as well, in terms of finding
(27:22):
a character, you know, a non-binary character that does the comedy in the way that I think,
you know, only a very small number of people can. Jo is funny. Yes. Well, we know that. Giggles
McGee. We call him Zheng Xi Giggles McGee because in foreplay, honestly, sometimes Zheng Xi just looks
my face and laughs. I think we need to dig into that. Your comedic timing is just, I love comedy.
(27:46):
Yeah. I think that's why I do like, like do quite a lot of comedy. But the truth is I also
find it very funny. Yeah. But Jo's comedic timing. Oh yeah. It's the delivery.
And you can change it as well, can't you? Cause I've seen some shows I've seen you in multiple
times and you do things differently, just maybe a different stress or different timing. And I can
(28:11):
imagine how difficult that is to be on stage with you when you do something that's a little bit
unexpected. Probably. Yeah. I mean, it's so nice, isn't it? Sometimes when you're in a like,
that's another thing about these things. And to be so lucky about creating them yourself
is that when you, when you are given that chance to do that, you know, it's not something you take
(28:34):
lightly. Like you just said that I don't think I'll ever get this opportunity again. So genuinely,
like every show and you want people want to like what you're doing and you want the show to do
well. So it was like every night you just feel, you know, it's like you're playing. Yeah. And I
think that's what's so beautiful, especially when you do comedy as well. It's so fun because you're
(28:57):
like when you have actors on stage that are all listening to each other, genuinely listening
and in it and kind of making choices that vary. That is so exciting. Like it's so electric. That's
literally what you want to watch, isn't it? And I think that's the beautiful thing about that. So I
(29:17):
also think that's probably why it was so fun to do as well, because so much was at stake. Yeah.
The payoff is immediate as well with comedy and theatre. It's like, do they laugh or not? Whereas
with drama, you're a bit like, are they sad? Are they happy? Do they laugh? You can't hear it. You
can't hear it. Where's the laughter? You just hear it and you're like, OK, I landed that joke.
(29:37):
But with Your Lie in April, there was a moment in the middle of the show, which nearly always got a
standing ovation, was there not? Yeah, it was a big piano piece that was four and a half minutes.
Yeah. But that to me is amazing as well. But it comes, like we were saying, it comes from
allowing everything about you to be out there on the stage.
(30:01):
This podcast series is part of a larger research project funded by the British Academy Early
Career Researchers Network Seed Fund on queer gain in queer infused musical theatre practice.
There will be a series of online events from September to December this year that explore
this research further. For more information, follow DrJamesLovelock or queer.musicals on
Instagram. I really want to ban the word lucky from you two about these things because you
(30:27):
this is what people deserve is for them to be able to shine and for people not to put them
into boxes and say, well, unfortunately, this is the way it's been done all of these years.
You know, we need more places where people can expand and you have writing teams and creative
teams that are able to kind of go with that. And so many of the people I've spoken to this series,
(30:51):
I mean, we're talking to Robyn Grant from Unfortunate, Chris Bush, who wrote Standing
at the Sky's Edge. And there is such a big amount of respect for actors, which I'm only starting to
detect recently. And I'm starting to detect more from queer and female writers and directors,
particularly because I think, yeah, I think there is something about working in those
(31:16):
sort of cast. I mean, I don't know whether the same thing might be said from working in any
minoritized community, when suddenly you find yourself in a group with people who understand
who you are. I've literally just got goosebumps because genuinely, that is what, for me,
working on Single, there was no dominating energy. Yeah, it was a completely safe room full of
(31:42):
femness, gayness, queerness, transness, womanhood, like it was all this beautiful thing.
And there wasn't any, and that goes in all areas of departments. And even like, the cis straight
(32:03):
men that were on that job were some of the loveliest humans, like Paul Gatehouse, who was
a sound designer, was the sweetest human ever. And I think genuinely, that is what, when you're in
those environments, you know, it's so rare. So it's almost like magic. And it feels, you know,
you're like, we all knew how important this story was. And we all felt really safe with each other.
(32:29):
And it just allows you to be yourself and expand in ways that maybe sometimes it when you're not
given that it doesn't do that. I don't know about you. No, absolutely. I think, you know,
Your Lie In April being the first fully South and East Asian cast, I've never experienced anything.
It was like, I, yeah, I don't know. I've just never experienced it before. You don't apologize
(32:51):
for your culture. You don't have to explain. I think similar with like, Why Am I So Single,
you don't have to explain yourself. You don't have to explain the food I bring in, don't explain my
upbringing, how my parents brought me up and like our languages. And then I think you do feel this
extra sense of camaraderie when you know you're doing like a show that is a huge milestone,
especially in terms of representation. There's this team spirit thing that, you know,
(33:15):
doesn't even have to be riled up and talked about. You just feel it and you feel it.
And, you know, like you said, banning the word lucky, but, you know, as the people that are
then given those chances, I guess that is lucky. How often do you come to work
and you're arraigned? I guess that's what I'm, I guess, you know, we work hard to get to where we
(33:39):
want to be. But I guess in those scenarios, I'm like, I'm aware that a lot, not a lot of people
have had that opportunity or can have that opportunity. And I think, so, you know,
it's beautiful. And from these things, the opportunities is then given to us, you know,
if I hadn't have done Single, I probably wouldn't have done Fourplay and I wouldn't have done
whatever. So yeah, it's, I think it goes hand in hand. I do, I do think we all work hard
(34:04):
and I think there is, I guess, I guess what's good to, I guess on the flip side to say it's
not about luck. I think it's, it's useful to say that as a motivator for people who want to go into
the industry because it is a lot of grafting and like, Jo, you graft a lot. And like, you know,
when I did Your Lie In April, like that piano piece was like four hours a day alone, like just
(34:25):
practicing crap, but I didn't have a life. Yeah. Basically. Why, why am I, why do you have no life?
Why do I have no life? Your life in April. Babe, no life in April. You don't, but also that,
you know, it's your moment. You take, you do what you do to get by. I mean,
(34:46):
I still would do it in a heartbeat, even though it was the hardest thing I think I've ever done
in my life. And I probably wouldn't ever do anything as hard as that. Yeah. Same. I, again,
the thought of if I had a show tonight, like puts fear into my heart. I don't know if I could do it.
I actually, you know, really funny. So I was at home the other day. This is actually probably a
(35:06):
bit embarrassing, but I was cleaning the living room and I was on my Spotify and randomly I had
it on a mix and Disco Ball came on. You tried to sing your own track. So I tried to sing my own
track on Spotify. And I did you know, I sounded awful. I actually sounded awful. And I was like,
girl, if that doesn't point how hard I worked, like it was muscular. My voice was so muscular.
(35:32):
I don't dare to sing the songs from Your Lie. It's crazy. It's crazy. I've got the recording.
I'm like, never, never singing along. I literally couldn't. Like the way I'm like,
my voice was thick. And I'm like, I think obviously we've done a play as well. So
I'm not even having to. It's a bit different. Yeah. Having a little cutesy little. You'll be
back into it. You'll be back into it. One day. One day. But God, it's just so funny, isn't it?
(35:53):
It is. We're athletes. I felt like an athlete on that job. And I felt like I was actually like,
there was so many things that I could not do because I had work to do.
Oh my gosh. I just thought of a quote though. Yeah. About hard work and luck.
That famous quote. It's not my quote. Share and care. The famous quote is
the harder I work, the luckier I get. The harder I work, the luckier.
(36:15):
I wish I came up with it, but no, it's not mine. But I do think about it.
Yeah, I think the other thing that I'm trying to get at is that I don't want people to feel
lucky for having spaces which are devoted to their communities. There's part of me,
(36:36):
I'm so happy that I've had so many guests on here talk about how wonderful it's been to be in
a queer space or a space, you know, any spaces which involve them and their communities.
Last series, I spoke to Josh Castille, who's a deaf actor from Chicago. Josh was talking about
how important it is for him to work with the deaf community because often on a job he is the only
(36:58):
deaf actor or one of only a couple of them. Is he the one who did Spring Awakening?
Yes. The Deaf West one.
Yes, because you did that role as well, didn't you? You played Ernst in Spring Awakening.
Was he Ernst or Hanschen?
He was Ernst.
Oh my gosh.
Yes, he was Ernst. Yes, he was.
We should meet.
I want to meet this person. I'm deaf. I love that.
I'd love to meet more deaf actors. I never, ever meet anyone. I think I've spoke to like
(37:25):
one or two people but I've never actually worked with them and I'm like, oh my god,
it's so crazy not even to have a... people get it immediately. It's bizarre.
And I think there are so many things that are hidden parts of us as well that we,
you know, that we haven't had that sort of representation or that community.
I don't, yeah. I very rarely talk about it.
I mean, I'm the same. The thing that I don't talk about is being gay. No,
(37:47):
I talk about that all the time. The thing that I don't...
You're gay.
Yeah, I know. Can you imagine? But I don't talk about the fact that I have an invisible
disability, which is ulcerative colitis. Mainly because, you know, you don't really want to be
going talking to everyone about your bowels. But it's also a thing because the other thing about
this condition is that it makes me very tired. And so there are all sorts of things that are
kind of a knock on and very often, I find myself having to explain that and people are like, well,
(38:11):
it doesn't show. Well, no, because I have doctors that are supporting and all this sort of thing as
well. But actually, you know, finding other people, particularly within an industry like
theatre industry, it can be really hard to find, you know, people. I mean, I'm not expecting there
to be, you know, a massive ulcerative colitis musical at any stage, you never know.
(38:33):
Well, I might write it, we'll see. But yeah, but you know, these things are really important. And I
think, you know, finding community is really important as well. And if we sort of moving
back to Fourplay again, you know, the fact that that the King's Head, one of the things it does
very well is build community, I think, particularly for gay men, but for, you know, hopefully aspiring
to build community for the queer community as well. And, you know, so seeing those sorts of
(38:58):
shows is really important. And I think it kind of leads me to another question that I wanted to ask
you, which is where do you hope that the theatre or musical theatre goes in the future? What sorts
of shows would you like to see? Or what sorts of shows have not been written yet that you would
really like to be part of? Oh, wow. What do you think, girl? Well, I just think, from a topic
(39:21):
point of view, I just think the more, you know, just anything that's not been explored yet,
especially for marginalized communities, I think there's still a lot of work to be done.
But also the more like diverse and, you know, stories that we see that we've never heard of,
the more exciting the art is, because that's what art is, is constantly evolving and constantly
(39:44):
exploring humanity. And then I guess from like a structural point of view, I guess just like the
more musical theatre just explores different genres and different ways of telling stories,
you know, like rap became a thing, like, I don't know, 10, how many years ago with, you know, and
then, you know, different kinds of musical elements. I just think like art just needs to grow
(40:06):
with society. And just the more you explore, the more exciting. Yeah.
Yeah, I'd really like to see some more queer Asian characters as well.
Oh, absolutely.
I think there's there's, I mean, I have mentioned Interstate on this podcast so many times where
there's a queer trans masculine character and a queer lesbian character who are kind of the two
(40:28):
protagonists of that shows. But for me to be mentioning the same musical for the fourth year
running, you know, that has a queer Asian protagonist is not ideal. And so I'd love to see
more kind of stories that allow that representation.
They were developing one in New York. Jason Robert Brown was writing one.
(40:49):
Yes. Is it in the midnight?
No.
In the Midnight Garden.
No, it's...
Are you going to play Iggle Piggle, babe? Congrats.
They were adapting...
The Garden of Good and Evil. It's something about that, is it not?
Oh, I was thinking of a different project. Maybe there is one. But I know they were adapting the
film Farewell, My Concubine, which I think was the first, I don't know, Chinese or Hong Kong film to
(41:16):
like get a nomination or win like the Oscar for best foreign film or something. Those are like
queer Asian characters. I don't know what's happened to it, though.
Yeah, I shall find out.
Jason Robert Brown, what's happening?
Yeah, diva. For me, I think if someone has lived an experience,
(41:37):
I think it's worth telling. I think, isn't that what art and stories are about? Like,
you know, if someone has lived that experience, I can guarantee on this planet someone will relate
to it. I think we're all connected. We're all more connected than we think as humans. And I
actually think like stories that haven't been told yet are sometimes some of the most exciting ones,
(42:00):
if it's done well, like, you know, it's like that is literally sometimes where all these like
trailblazer of shows come from. It's from these new ideas, isn't it? So,
yeah, I don't know. I'd love to see a lot more queer working class. I'd love to see a queer
working class story on stage. I'd love to see that on TV. In fact, there's a series coming out now on
(42:21):
BBC called What It Feels Like for a Girl, which is super beautiful. And like, that is the first time
where I was like, Jesus Christ, that is, it feels very similar to me. And I thought it was really
beautiful. I'd love to see a lot more of that on stage. I'd love to see more northern accents on
(42:41):
stage. For me and who I am as a human, I'm kind of saying like, what is gender? Yeah. And so like,
I, for me and what I do, I don't see myself playing anything in particular, you know,
if the character fits me, then I'm, and I'm right for it. I would love to do it. Like,
I would love to play, you know, typically male roles, typically female roles, if I can, like,
(43:07):
and, you know, so, yeah, yeah, that's what I would love to do. Like, I'd love to do like,
pre 1960s, like I trained in legit. That's the school I went to. I'd love to do a musical that
was like, where I'm singing classically, but I'm like some kind of non binary character.
Or I'm, you know, I'm doing one or the other that I think that just would be so cool.
(43:30):
It was such a beautiful version of Oklahoma, not the Daniel Fish version. It was a different
version that was done at the Oregon Shakespeare Festival a few years ago, where they gender
swapped Curly, and they gender swapped Ado Annie. So you all gay couples at the heart of it was
(43:51):
played by a trans female actor. And it's just, oh, I'm so happy that the Rodgers and Hammerstein
Foundation gave permission. Yeah. And I hope that that kind of becomes something that people are
able to work with. Like you say, it doesn't necessarily have to be that you make the story
a queer story, although do that make the story a queer story, because that'd be fab. Yeah,
anything you just, well, yeah, I think even like, Single, if you also, even if you look at the
(44:17):
ensemble for that, everyone played everything. Yes. You know, no one, girls didn't play girls
and boys didn't play boys. Because also what's interesting about that is, as the opposite,
sometimes the opposite sex, whether you're cis male or cis female, you have, you, you know,
you know, that you almost know that because you've received that because as the opposite sometimes.
(44:40):
So it's so interesting, like putting these people and having people who wouldn't normally play these
roles, do their view on it. And it was especially in comedy, you know, I think you can kind of take
it to the extreme, but I just thought, yeah, like that was in a clear example of some light and
no one but a denial it, and it was really great. You know, that would be cool. It's been so great
(45:01):
talking to you both today. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. And thank you everybody for
listening at home, and we'll see you soon. Thank you very much. Bye. Bye. Thanks, James.
Thank you for listening to represent the queer musical theatre podcast.
The research for this series is funded by the British Academy Early Career Researchers Network
(45:25):
seed fund and supported by Sheffield Hallam University. The episodes were recorded at
the Content is Queen podcast studios at the Makerversity at Somerset house.
For more information, go to contentisqueen.org.
That's all for this series. Thank you so much for listening. And don't forget to
explore our previous episodes on your favorite podcast service. Hope to see you again soon.
(45:58):
I'm just laughing now about Iggy Piggle. Ickle pickle. Not Ickle Pickle. Iggle Piggle.
I don't know. Ickle pickle? You
just wait till we get back to the theatre. Iggle Piggle and the Ninky Nonk. What are you talking about?
Oh, you've got so much fun to come. Like, yeah, it's like a British culture thing. Yeah,
(46:21):
CBeebies. Yes, because there's a gap in my chidlhood. Yeah, I grew up half my life in
Malaysia. Yeah, he was in Malaysia. I missed out on Iggle Piggle. Well,
we will fill that gap. Thank you. I do know Peppa Pig. There we go. There we are.
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