August 19, 2025 • 50 mins
Welcome to Represent, the queer musical theatre podcast. My name is Dr. James Lovelock, and I'm an academic and a huge musical theatre fan exploring the representation of all things queer in the musical theatre industry.
My guests today are the amazing Jordan Cambridge-Taylor and the fabulous Olivia O'Connor from the recent production of Why Am I So Single at the Garrick Theatre. We discuss the casting process for the show, find out what made the rehearsal room so welcoming, and explore why this show means so much to its audiences. We also look at non-binary and plus-size representation in musical theatre, as well as finding out about what the Pineapple Studios' Lost Property box contains for emergency audition situations.
Links
Jordan Cambridge-Taylor's instagram
Olivia O'Connor's instagram and TikTok
Dr James Lovelock's instagram
2008 Stuttgart production of Wicked
'For Good' - Willemijn Verkaik and Jana Stelley
'Popular' - Jana Stelley
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You're listening to Represent, the queer musical theatre podcast.
(00:04):
My name is Dr. James Lovelock, and I'm an academic and a huge musical theatre fan exploring
the representation of all things queer in the musical theatre industry.
My guests today are the amazing Jordan Cambridge-Taylor and the fabulous Olivia O'Connor from the
recent production of Why Am I So Single at the Garrick Theatre.
(00:25):
We discuss the casting process for the show, find out what made the rehearsal room so welcoming,
and explore why this show means so much to its audiences.
We also look at non-binary and plus-size representation in musical theatre, as well as finding out
about what the Pineapple Studios' Lost Property box contains for emergency audition situations.
(00:46):
As always, you can follow us on your favourite podcast platform, and don't forget to share
this episode on social media.
Let's get started.
My name's Olivia O'Connor, and I was in the ensemble of Why Am I So Single, and I also
played the agent who was called Faye Ginn, and if you don't get that, it's actually an Oliver
reference, but don't worry, it took me a while for me to get into.
(01:09):
Excellent.
My name is Jordan Cambridge-Taylor, pronouns are they/them, and I played alternate Oliver.
Woo!
Yeah, excellent.
Hurrah!
So, I'm going to ask you to tell us a little bit about how you got into musical theatre,
what drew you to musical theatre as a kind of a genre or as a way of expressing yourself.
So who would like to start with that one?
(01:30):
Woo!
Okay.
Well, I'm basically just a huge fan of musical theatre, and I sometimes, sometimes, most
of the time, feel like I've just managed to weasel myself in to performing.
Honestly, the obsession.
Wicked.
Yeah, it's, some may say unhealthy.
(01:51):
I don't think so.
Currently, it's Death Becomes Her.
Oh, yes.
Oh, my God.
Excellent.
But yeah, very much just a fan, was obsessed with movie musicals.
My mum tried to put me in dance classes when I was little because she was like, oh, maybe
a performer, and I tried one class and I thought, not for me.
Singing, however, have always done.
Never had lessons until GSA though, which is fun.
(02:14):
We did go to a dance class together, I remember that.
We did go to a dance class together.
And it wasn't what we expected.
No, it was really hard.
It was so hard.
Like, if we didn't have, if I didn't have you in there, I think tears would have been
shed.
Oh, same.
Same, same, same.
And when was this?
Was this a long time ago?
This was when we were still in the show.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
(02:34):
Yeah.
When we had some because.
We were like, oh, we're comfy in the show now.
So let's go do some classes.
And especially because there was like previews and rehearsals for all the covers and swings.
There was like, it felt like we was in the theatre so much.
And when we did have three days, it's like, we're like a bit bored.
Like, what are we going to do with our lives?
But then me and Jordan decided to go to a little dance class.
Lovely.
(02:55):
Excellent.
And how did you get into a musical theatre, Liv?
How did I get into musical theatre?
I actually started off as a pop, like pop singing was my thing.
And I had singing lessons, I think from like, 10, 11.
And yeah, just always sang pop songs.
And then I went to secondary school.
(03:16):
I did like a Saturday school at somewhere called the Theatre Workshop in Birmingham
and just kind of fell in love with it.
And then in school, we did, this is really, really dramatic, but we did the schools like
X Factor.
Wow.
And that at the time, that was like, if you got into the X Factor at school, you had some
street cred.
(03:37):
Amazing.
And then so I did that.
And then my school had a sixth form, but performing arts.
If there wasn't enough people to do performing arts, then you just couldn't pick it.
Right.
Which was annoying.
But also, I do get it because as much as I would love to have a one woman class of performing
arts, but the head teacher actually said to me, and my music teacher was like, you can't
(03:59):
stay here.
Like you need to go, go and do it because they felt like I had something in me.
So I was like, okay, went to a college in Stratford, musical theatre.
And at this point, I didn't really know much about drama school.
And then that's where we learn.
And I was like, oh, okay, I'll get I want to do it.
Yeah.
So they like set us all up.
(04:19):
I couldn't I always say I couldn't thank Stratford College in Birmingham enough because they really
just taught me everything.
And then yeah, just started to fall more and more in love with it.
That's great.
That's excellent.
And one of the things I'm interested in as well.
So this is a podcast about representation.
And obviously, for first and foremost, LGBTQ+ representation.
(04:39):
But I'm also really interested in how musical theatre can be accessible to people from different
backgrounds.
And particularly, you know, in terms of people who maybe are working class actors or actors
from areas where there isn't a pathway that's clear all the way through.
So it's really interesting you talk about that.
And it's something I think we'll probably come back to as well.
The other thing I was going to ask you is, was there a musical or, or some musicals that
(05:03):
you really kind of hooked you or you saw yourself in or anything like that when you first started?
Don't look at me like that.
Where do I start?
Wicked.
Wicked was like the musical that got me into like performing fully because before I was
like, oh, that's really cool.
(05:23):
That's really fun.
I didn't realise it was a job.
I saw Wicked on tour, it came to my local theatre.
And I have such a distinct memory of watching 'The Wizard and I' and thinking, like, just
beside myself.
I was like, I need to do that.
Yeah, I need to do that.
Yeah, probably that.
It's an amazing show, isn't it Wicked?
Yeah.
I don't know if I've said this on the podcast before, but the thing I love about Wicked,
(05:45):
there's a German version of it.
I don't know whether you've ever seen this, but in the German version, it's much more
queer because for some reason, Glinda and Elphaba, the actors that play them are allowed
to be a lot more expressive.
Is that the non-replica production?
Yes, it is.
Yeah.
And that's a video.
I think I'll try to link some clips for this in the information about the episode.
(06:09):
But there was something about that because for ages, I struggled to think about what
it was that I really loved in Wicked and why I was so connected to these characters.
But it's such a love story, isn't it, between Elphaba and Glinda?
And I think those of us from the LGBTQ community, I think a lot of us really kind of connect
with that really strongly.
What about you, Liv?
(06:29):
What was a musical you loved?
I think I actually think the first musical that I watched was Wicked.
I think we went on like, I think it was a school trip, either with my theatre school
or my secondary school.
I can't remember.
But that was definitely the one where I was like, okay, this is it.
I actually don't have like a musical that like, made me think, oh, I want to go into
(06:54):
it.
But I definitely think now that the musical that I'm most desperate to be in is Six.
Oh, wow.
Okay.
Do you have any particular queen that you would like to be?
I say this all the time.
I feel like you've heard this story about a million times, Jordan, but if like for my
voice and what I think that sounds the nicest in my voice, I think would be Seymour or Parr.
(07:19):
Okay.
'Heart of Stone' or 'I Don't Need Your Love', me having to think there.
But I think with my character and who I am as a person, I think it would be either Aragon
who sings 'No Way' or Boleyn who sings 'Don't Lose Your Head', because I like to be quite
fun and silly on stage and I feel like you can't really add a bit of fun and silly to
(07:41):
'Heart of Stone'.
You could try.
I mean, you could try.
Maybe that'll be my twist.
Maybe you should just be like Toby, Lucy, can we switch this up?
Yeah, can we?
I think I'm the person for it.
I find that interesting about, you know, how sometimes the the roles that we really love
as characters are sometimes different to the roles that are written for our voices.
(08:05):
And I think that's a really interesting thing that people are starting to think about now
when they're casting is, well, can we change the keys of these songs?
Can we do things to make them fit the cast better?
And I think a lot of that actually comes from working with trans and non-binary singers
that later on in this in this series, I'll be talking to some people who were in Fangirls,
(08:25):
the musical, and Fangirls is one where they definitely every time that they do a new production,
they change the keys and not just for the trans and non-binary members of cast, but
for everybody to find the place where it fits the best.
And I wonder how far that's something that you've experienced in your training or, you
know, in the productions that you've done.
(08:46):
Is it something, you know, are there conversations about the key that fits you?
I think with what you said earlier about, I can't remember how you worded it, but something
that I struggle with, with my voice is that the characters that, no, my voice sounds like,
for example, in Dear Evan Hansen, I feel like my voice is very suited to Zoe, but with me,
(09:08):
I couldn't see myself as a Zoe because of who I am as a person.
And I know that's the beauty of acting, but I feel like with that sometimes like really
contradicts myself and like, I'm like, right, okay, my voice really suits the role of Zoe,
but do I feel like, because I'm so bubbly and silly, do I feel like I could?
But it's acting.
I know.
(09:28):
Sometimes I just think, oh my God, am I actually an actor then?
It's a really interesting conversation though, isn't it, about, you know, because I don't
think what I'm trying to say here is that you can only play roles that are similar to
you as a person, but there's also a sense that for some of us it's very difficult to
find those roles that are similar to us as a person because they're not really being
(09:50):
written.
Not at all.
And I think that's a very big thing, particularly with queer representation, but with all sorts
of representation as well, they're just characters that are not being written.
And I think that one of the things that I'm interested in talking about, what are those
sorts of roles, you know, that we're looking for and how can we, you know, how can we find
more of those roles?
I mean, again, this will link into Why Am I So Single? in a little bit, because that's,
(10:14):
you know, that was clearly a musical which was writing for characters that we hadn't
seen before and an ensemble that we hadn't seen before.
And so I do find that interesting to kind of look at.
Do you find this, Jordan, when you're looking at roles or when you're looking at things
to audition for, that there's space for you to be able to look at what works best for
(10:35):
your voice and for your personality?
Occasionally.
I feel like it's been a rarity, to be honest, because a lot of the things I've auditioned
for since graduating is very much like a, like a continuing production of something
(10:56):
that's already happened.
So they're like, oh, that works.
Let's keep that formula.
Go ahead with that.
So it's, it feels like a lot of the things that I've been in for can feel, although they
might not necessarily be, but can feel quite box-ticky, being like, great.
You can sing this.
You look this certain way.
Brilliant.
(11:17):
Yeah.
Whereas, like, going back to Why Am I So Single?, that felt very different in terms of that
audition process.
Because, well, I was like, oh, a character that I see myself in, and I had so many friends
come to the show and they're like, oh, you're not acting.
That's just you.
That's just, which is a testament to the brilliant writing.
(11:39):
One of the things with Why Am I So Single?, I was lucky enough to see that quite a few
times.
And so I saw you play the role and I saw Jo play the role.
And it's lovely that they were so different in terms of accent, in terms of tone.
And I think that that's, that's something, again, that's been fairly rare in musical
theatre until recently, that they allow the alternate or the understudy to put their own
(12:00):
spin on it.
Yeah.
And I think that that's, that's something that really stood out to me about Why Am I
So Single? and about the way that you were able to play that role.
If you're interested in LGBTQ+ representation in musical theatre, check out our website
www.queermusicals.com for lots more information about musicals with LGBTQ+ characters.
(12:30):
I'm going to take you back all the way to the beginning of this because I'd like to
talk about Why Am I So Single? in a little bit of detail.
So we've just talked about when you first got this through as a thing to audition for.
I mean, I'm a little bit, I have to say I'm a little bit naive about how these audition
things work.
So was this something that your agent found for you or something that you found
and how did that work in terms of how you kind of looked for it?
(12:53):
So we actually met, side note, me and Liv met before we both were cast in Why Am I So
Single?.
So Liv was auditioning for the show already.
I had known about it and been like, oh my God, I need to get in for this show.
It seems really up my street.
Yeah.
So actually that is true.
We met, what was it?
Oh God.
It was the Starlight Skate Day.
We were both in for that as well.
(13:16):
Yeah, we were both in for that.
And that's when we first met each other and we did actually speak.
That's really weird how the world, I mean, it probably wasn't an in-depth conversation,
but I definitely said hello to you.
Right.
Anyway.
Yeah.
So we knew of each other, even though you don't remember that.
And then my agent got an email through and actually called me because by this time I'd
(13:41):
been in for Six quite a few times and that was like a big thing for me.
And my agent at the time rang me and was like, oh, Marlow and Moss are writing a new musical.
And I was like, okay.
I remember being at work and I was just like, okay, right.
Acting really cool.
And as soon as I ended the phone, I was like to my friend who I work for, because I work
at this stage school back home called Classic Theatrics, and I was like to one of my colleagues,
(14:04):
I was like, right, I need to send the self-typing by this date.
My friend's husband is a videographer, like he films all the football games.
I was like, I need you.
We're going to film this professionally because this is like, this is it.
I always say, and I know it's really easy to say because I've done the job, but I was
like something about this because my best friend Jayden as well, he sent me, Lucy and
(14:27):
Toby done a video like, oh, we've just finished writing our next musical.
And Jayden was like, you have to go in for this.
Like you are getting this.
And I've still got the screenshot of the message and I was like, oh my God, look at it now.
But yeah, we had to send, I think our journey might be a bit different.
I had to send in a self-tape of a pop song of your own choice.
(14:50):
So did that, did the self-tape and then got asked to come back in.
I think in total, I think I did about four or five singing rounds and then probably three
or four dance rounds.
And then there was the big final.
But in that final, I always say this, and I used to say all the time to Ellen Kane,
(15:17):
who was our choreographer, I was like, how on earth did you pick the amount of people
that were in that room and all the people, like, I was like, if I had to pick, there's
no way I could have picked because everyone was, it was just the best thing I'd ever seen
in my life.
Like I was so in awe of everyone and after I was like, how on earth are they going to
(15:38):
pick?
But yeah, there was loads of different elements of the show that we had to do over the audition
process.
So you went in and sung your pop song again.
And then this fearful thing that I feel like I always think of is, please don't ask me
for a second song and do not ask to look in my rep folder because there's songs in there
that I haven't sung for years.
(15:59):
Why don't you just take it out?
I know, but I was under pressure and it's so funny as well because I sang my song, which
was 'Don't Be So Hard On Yourself' by Jess Glynne, absolute tune.
And then, and actually, if I do say so myself, a really good song for the show, 'Don't Be
So Hard On Yourself'.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(16:19):
Yeah.
That's my opinion.
But I think when I hear Jess Glynne, I just go to Jet2Holidays.
And then Toby was like, oh, can we, can we hear another song?
I was like, like, literally tears in my eyes and they were like, what have you got?
And I was like, can I have a look?
And I was flicking through my rep folder and thank God I didn't give it to Toby because
(16:42):
'Heart of Stone' was in there.
I was like, imagine if they were like, yep, can we do that one?
I'd be like, oh really?
But, um, I did the one that, I think I picked 'The One That Got Away' by Katy Perry
again.
Tune.
Also brilliant song, tune.
I remember being like 11 years old, being like, what the hell is going on?
And then we got given material and some people in the ensemble got given 'C U Never', some
(17:06):
people got given 'Just In Case', um, I got 'Just In Case'.
And I remember I just, every round that I did, I was like, okay, this is, you try not
to, but you do plan your life.
Don't get your hopes up.
Don't get your hopes up.
You don't get your hopes up.
You don't plan your life.
Me, still planning my life.
Yes.
And I remember I went in and also as the rounds, sorry, I'm literally talking for hours.
(17:29):
As the rounds went on, more and more people like started to join the panel.
So it was like, you were going in with more and more stuff and more and more people just
appeared.
And I was like, oh my, I would rather sing in front of a million people in an auditorium
than eight people in a well lit room with their eyes just on you like this.
(17:49):
But it was always such good vibes.
And I remember there was, you know, it's like the Nokia sound, which I didn't
know in 'Just In Case'.
So many things happened during the show that I was like, oh my God, that's that.
And like the cast would be like, really, I'm so slow.
As hard as I say about the screen, I just couldn't, I couldn't get the tune.
(18:10):
I just couldn't do it.
So Toby was like, right, come on over here.
And I went over to the piano and they were working and also with me, you can sit at
the piano with me for half an hour and teach me this one sentence, but I will go back in
front of everyone and I will sing it exactly the same as I sang before.
And I remember poor Toby worked on it with me for like what felt like an hour, but was
(18:33):
probably five minutes.
And I went back and I sang it exactly the same.
And I was like, I promise if you call me back, I'll get it right.
And then, yeah, and then it just, I couldn't believe, I couldn't believe, but I could cause
I was like, this is, I feel like for representation in all sorts, I feel like as a bigger girl,
(18:54):
I feel like I was like, this is what needs to happen.
And if it's not me, please let it be someone else that's of a bigger stature.
Because I feel like from my experience, there's not a lot of that in an ensemble, in a dancing
ensemble.
So I was like, God, if I get this, this is just, I wish younger me would have been able
to watch me do it.
(19:14):
Cause I just remember never going to shows and seeing people being like, that's not,
I can't see myself in there because someone like me isn't in it.
So yeah, that's, I feel like that's the big thing that I've really taken from the show
is to know that someone like me can do it.
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah.
And of course, so many people who've seen it will also take that as well, is why representation
(19:36):
is so important.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you for that.
God I really rambled on there.
No, that was great.
It's really important.
And actually really useful.
A lot of people who listen to this podcast, the students, so really helpful for them as
well to kind of know how this process works.
And so Jordan, was it quite, quite different for you in terms of how you...?
Very different.
I am.
(19:57):
So I actually heard from a friend that, cause I, I'd seen all of the stuff like about the
workshop online, what's on stage.
And I was like, wow, that looks cool.
Jo looks a bit like me.
Maybe, maybe that's something that could work.
And then yeah, I went to go and see one of my friends in a show and they're like, oh,
someone else in the cast is, is auditioning for this show.
I think you'd be really good for it.
(20:17):
And I was like, oh, I didn't know that.
I didn't know this was happening.
And yeah.
As soon as I found out, I messaged my agent being like, I need to get into this.
This sounds perfect.
And then yeah.
Couldn't, couldn't for a good while because they were, I think they were just looking
for dancers at that point.
And I was like, great.
Okay.
(20:38):
So maybe it's not going to happen for me.
And then I had just gotten two really big no's and I was like, well, I guess this is
it for me.
I've literally got in like so many times for months on end for these two shows and then
got no's.
And I was like, great.
Maybe I should rethink my career choices.
And then literally the week after the audition for this came through, like the character
(21:02):
description, I was like, this is, yeah, this is me.
And then went in, so funnily enough, on the day of my first round, I feel like this might
have helped my audition actually, because it calmed me down quite a bit because I only
had to go in, I did one scene and I sang a bit of 'Disco Ball'.
(21:25):
And beforehand I had just been in for Cats and it was a nightmare.
I was in the day before and they were like, can you learn this other song?
Come back.
And I was like, great.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Went back.
Everyone was in dance gear.
And I was like, I haven't been told anything about this.
Went up to the people and they were like, oh yeah, yeah, it's a dance round.
(21:45):
Meanwhile, I'm there in like my nice little skirt, mesh top combo and I'm like, oh, okay.
They're like, go to Lost Property if you need some stuff.
So I marched all the way down in Pineapple Bloody Studios to Lost Property, picked up
these.
Anyway, anyway, it was stinky.
It was really stinky.
I ended up ripping open my big toe because I didn't have shoes that I could dance in.
(22:08):
So I was having a nightmare of a day.
I did a nice face in the morning, it all melted off because I didn't know what setting spray
was at this point in my life.
I got these little GAP camo, what they call jogging bottoms, but they were too small.
They were for 13 year old girls, like that was the sizing on the inside.
So they literally look like, I don't know, they look like little mini shorts on me.
(22:31):
And then the stinkiest Under Armour top you've ever smelt in your life.
And I was like, well, I guess this is being an actor.
I can't believe they told you to go to Lost Property.
I was like, listen, I'm here.
I'm going to do it, I guess.
I've never walked out of an audition before, so I guess I'm going to do it anyway.
That went really badly.
So I was like, well, I couldn't get any possibly lower today.
(22:53):
I went into the bloody audition for Why Am I So Single and Lucy was like, how's your
day going?
And I was like, babe, I'm having an absolute mare.
I fully said everything.
That is hilarious.
And I was like, oh, I've just told you way too much information, so I feel quite comfortable
now.
And then, yeah, and then I felt very much in the right mindset to do that and 'Disco
(23:20):
Ball' because I was already having a breakdown that day, so.
What did you actually have to, what section of 'Disco Ball' did you have to sing from?
The beginning, I had to do 'Oh Nancy Darling Baby...' and I was like, what is this?
What is this?
And they were like, can you do a Patti LuPone impression?
And I was like, can I do a Patti LuPone impression?
No.
(23:41):
I was like, I'll give you a Cher if you want.
So they were like, sure, sure.
So I did Cher for the 'Oh Nancy Darling...' and Lord knows why I did that and here we are.
And yeah, I literally did like a two minute cut.
It was basically the first, I don't know, first chorus and then skip to the end.
(24:05):
So just, 'ah...', It's a tough song, isn't it?
Tell me about it.
Tell me about it, that I, so that was okay, that audition, because that was at one o'clock
in the afternoon.
So I was like, great.
I've done a dance round.
I've already sung today.
I'm warm.
My finals was at 10 o'clock in the bloody morning, 10 o'clock in the bloody morning.
(24:26):
I know mine isn't as extreme as 'Disco Ball', but I traveled up from Southampton.
I was up at like five o'clock in the morning and I was like, right, I need to warm up.
And I'm there doing lip trills on the train.
Any singing audition before 12, it's hell and horror.
Illegal.
Illegal.
Should be illegal.
But I always do have this saying that if it is before 12 and I crack or it goes bad, then
(24:50):
I can blame it on the early.
If I'm cracking at 4pm, I've already, I'm already supposed to have done a matinee,
So I shouldn't be cracking.
Oh dear.
Yeah, I feel like in the mornings you do have a bit of an excuse.
If you want to follow us on social media, you can use Queer.Musicals on Instagram
or Facebook, or you can follow me at DrJamesLovelock on Instagram.
(25:21):
The next thing I wanted to ask you about is the first day that you all got together.
So the first time that you met the rest of the cast and how that felt and how that worked,
because I guess it's different for every show that you do.
I'm thinking specifically about Why Am I So Single? with, I guess, quite a diverse cast,
but also a very queer cast as well.
And how that felt in terms of, you know, just seeing who you were going to be putting this
(25:43):
show on its feet with.
I've never been more nervous in my life, to be completely honest.
I remember coming straight up to you and I was like, I've watched your Instagram videos.
You're a great singer.
And you were like, oh, thank you.
I always say this, it's so weird how, like on the first day, how we all were, we were
with each other compared to like the last day.
(26:04):
Like it's so weird to think that you saw me as this shy person.
That's really weird.
But I think it was, it was weird because before our show even opened, we had the West End
Live rehearsals.
Which was lovely.
Which was so nice.
It felt like a little boot camp.
So it was nice to have that, but some people couldn't do West End Live.
So then it was so funny because the people who did the workshop was like, especially
(26:29):
with them, Jemima, who was our dance captain on the show, Jemima couldn't do West End Live.
And everyone was like, you're gonna love Jemima, Jemima is great.
And I was like, who's Jemima?
But now like I'm like, yeah, absolutely, she's great.
But I feel like it was good that we had that West End Live bit.
And then we had like two, well, you might not have had as long as me, was you in a
(26:53):
week before?
We were in a week before, yeah.
Then I had like a two week break.
We had a nice little holiday.
We had a nice little holiday.
Two week break and then we went back and there was, remember how many people were in that
room?
We all stood in a circle.
Oh my god.
Which was so great because everyone got to introduce themselves, pronouns were said and
(27:13):
like it was just, and then what did we say?
We had to say.
Yeah.
Who our best friend was.
Who our best friend was.
That was lovely.
Lucy was like, everyone go around, say your name, say your pronouns, like what your role
is in the show and who your best friend was.
And it was just really nice hearing that part of everybody.
There was so many people.
There were so many people.
It took us so long.
And I'm like, how am I going to remember everyone's name?
But it's so weird how quickly you do remember people's names.
(27:36):
Yeah, it was really nice.
That's lovely.
And then as you kind of went through, do you think there's a difference in being in a room
which I think I'm right in saying a majority queer creative team.
Is there anything that's different about that or anything that you think works in a different
way when you've got that sort of space?
(27:57):
It's the best.
It's the absolute best.
That's my favorite room I've ever been in.
I've never felt more comfortable.
I mean, bearing in mind, I was pooping my pants most days because I was like, I mean,
Jo like knew it, like the back of their hand because they did the workshop and it was kind
of molded around them.
Whereas I was like, I have no idea what half of this show is, but like, I've never felt
(28:22):
like I've been in safer hands to be completely honest.
It was so good.
It was just nice.
Like, I feel like also I learned so much being in that show that I feel like I probably wouldn't
have learned completely.
I learned more in that show than I did my whole three years at drama school.
Yeah.
Like if I never would have, if I never would have been in that show, I probably wouldn't
know half of that.
(28:43):
I've learned so much new terminology, like I've learned loads of different things within
the queer community that I'm like probably was around me all the time, but because I
wasn't there firsthand experiencing it and also like being there for my friends in
the queer community, experiencing things as well, like seeing how can I, how can I change
(29:06):
their experience or how can I learn and make things better for them, which is like, it's
so great.
Like there's so many things that I didn't know.
Like I just remember, but it's so good because I'm the sort of person to just be like, what
is that?
Like, please tell me I'm not, cause also I don't want to, I don't want to use something
in the wrong context.
So if anyone says something that I'm like, what, what, what's that?
(29:26):
I don't feel, I feel like it's better for me to ask them to just stay back and be like,
Oh, I'm not going to, I'm not going to touch on that surface because I'm not very educated
in it because I'm like, no, if I'm going to be in this queer musical, which I was also
so appreciative of because me personally, I'm not queer, big fat ally though.
But like, I, this world, this world has always been around me and like, I've got a lot of
(29:51):
queer friends.
In fact, most of my friends are queer, but it's like, I didn't know much about their
queer side.
If that makes sense.
That sounds really weird, but yeah, there's just like, there's so many things that I'm
like, that would happen or things that people would go through that I'd be like, I'm just
so oblivious to that happening because I would never think of that being a thing, which is
(30:14):
really weird.
But yeah, I feel like I, I'm so grateful to have done it and now I'm like, every room,
every musical that I want to be in has to be queer because nothing's going to beat that.
Nothing's going to beat that experience.
Unfortunately not.
So Jordan, was there anything in the, in the room which you think specifically made it
more accessible or more joyful for queer people?
(30:37):
Is there any things that were ways of working that were different?
I feel like because of, because the tone of the show is very, doesn't take itself too
seriously.
Very, I don't know, very tongue in cheek, very now.
That's just kind of how, very now, who am I?
(31:01):
It's very now.
Yeah.
That's just how the room felt.
Even like with warmups, I remember like we'd have like Chappell Roan warmups and that was
just the best thing ever.
Oh my God.
The day that guests come out.
Oh yes.
Oh, okay.
So queer culture was at its peak when we were in rehearsals for this show.
It was Brat Summer, mid Brat Summer, the day that 'Guess' came out, did we just do the whole
(31:23):
warmup to that song?
Yeah, we kept replaying it.
And even Toby and Lucy were warming up with us.
It was like the world was being taken over.
And it was just great.
It was an incredible.
It was an incredible.
It was an incredible.
It was an incredible.
I think that's an excellent sentence that should be repeated whenever possible.
(31:44):
That's amazing though, to have that kind of, almost like the outside world coming into
the rehearsal room in that way.
And I suppose on the other hand, you know, things have changed actually such a lot since
even since Why Am I So Single closed, you know, even the last six months, there's been
such a big change in the way that the world is.
(32:04):
And I think one of the things that I want to think about later is how we keep Why Am
I So Single as a resource that people can keep coming back to.
And certainly there were a lot of my students would have seen themselves for the first time
in that show.
Completely.
Yeah.
I think particularly, obviously non-binary students, but also, I mean, the song 'Disco
(32:25):
Ball' is for me as an older gay person, that's a song that is something about me that I have
never seen represented anywhere ever.
And so I'm really interested in, well, first of all, I'm really interested in the moments
that stood out for you as performers or when you were looking at the script or when you
(32:46):
were performing, what were the moments that you loved about the show?
I'm gonna go straight in with just after 'Lost'.
There's a scene, like a really small scene between Oliver and Nancy.
And it's kind of like the emotional climax of the show.
And it's the first time that I, oh, dear, yeah, that's the first time that I really
(33:12):
felt represented when Nancy kind of explores more pronouns with Oliver and they're still
not sure on their identity at that point.
And I remember when in the first week of rehearsals, when it was me, Jo, Lisa, Colette, Toby and
(33:35):
Lucy and Joe Beighton and Sarah (and Sarah) and we were all just sat around this table.
It was the last day we did a full like read through, sing through and it got to that bit
and we were all just sobbing and holding each other.
And oh, yeah, I've never felt like I've been in a safer, more inclusive space in my life.
(33:59):
So that that moment particularly, I could never get through a show without absolutely
losing it at that point.
Yeah.
It just makes you literally feel like I could cry thinking about it.
Yeah.
Like it's such a it's not a sad moment.
It's like the bond of their friendship and I just get so.
It's affirming.
(34:19):
It's an affirming moment.
And it's like, oh, my God, like, yeah, I don't, I'm lost for words.
Even as in the ensemble, like not being on the stage, even looking and seeing how vulnerable
you both were, yeah, it's just like, oh, my God, people are really going to connect to
this because the people who are actually playing it go through these things like will feel
(34:44):
like the emotional towards it will feel like, oh, my God, this is this is a crazy experience.
And I just know that from people, even my mum, like I try to educate my family whenever
I can, every time I can and it's they learn like it's great.
But even my mum's like, oh, my God, like this is awful to think that it's just like, oh,
(35:07):
you just want to get up on the stage and hug them.
Like the amount of times I'd want to just march on and be like, it's all right.
Keep going.
You've got there.
Oh, yeah.
But I can't.
It's like such a fun.
But I also feel like you should be really proud of yourself for being that vulnerable
on stage.
Yeah.
Because I feel like it is really hard, especially when you have to do it over and over and over
again.
Yeah.
And it takes a long time to make it feel so raw to the point where even though I've watched
(35:29):
you do it, God knows how many times and I still get... It's because it's a lived experience.
Yeah.
That's why.
That's why it resonates so much.
And that's I feel like it's such a poignant, poignant, poignant moment.
Because even when I watched Jo do it, I would just sit there and cry and cry.
(35:51):
Yeah.
Yeah, I think that is that's a it is a really beautiful moment there and a kind of I suppose
one of the things one of the difficult things with the show is that you have that moment
at the end and it's quite a long scene series of scenes and songs where there's just two
of you on stage and quite, you know, really hard to sustain that sort of thing.
(36:12):
And that's sort of... tell me about it.
Yeah.
So I think it's but this is why it's so important is to because that moment that you're talking
about that it's not on the cast album.
And so it really only is experienced by people who see the story on stage.
And I guess that's another question is, you know, how do we hopefully there's a future
(36:33):
life for Why Am I So Single? We hope so.
Yeah.
But how do we keep these, these really important moments, which are moments that you only see
in this show?
Yeah.
How do we keep them going?
And how do we keep them alive for, you know, future generations or people who didn't see
it who need to hear those sort of things?
(36:54):
This series of Represent has been recorded at the Content is Queen studio in Somerset
House.
Content is Queen is a podcast agency and community made up of women, people of colour and LGBTQIA
plus people who wish to connect, create and collaborate using audio and podcasting.
For more information, go to contentisqueen.org.
Liv, was there any other moments in it that you love?
(37:16):
It doesn't necessarily have to be a, you know, a poignant moment.
What moments do you, you know, were your highlights of the show?
I think the highlights of like from there's a few things for me, like I feel I was waiting
backstage.
It wasn't like in it.
I don't know.
It wasn't it was exciting, but it was also like an adrenaline rush and like the fear
(37:37):
of it not going right is when I had to be, hold the jacket, like I'm in the wings and
I pass the jacket into 'Disco Ball' and like, I'm just like, if I don't pass this jacket
right, this is going to ruin the whole thing and the panic that used to, and I used to
make one of the dresses, Kim, who used to give it to the point where I wouldn't
(37:59):
get it out of its bag.
I'd be like, Kim, you have got to pass it to me in the way like that it has to go.
And I'd do it every day.
I'd be like, is this the right way?
Is this the right way?
And I'd be overthinking it.
But that like rush of me and I, I remember just having to give it, but at the same time,
I'd have to give it so quickly because I'd have to run and push the set.
Yes.
That whole sequence.
That whole sequence.
Nightmare fuel.
(38:19):
Nightmare fuel.
If one thing went wrong, the whole thing went wrong.
Terrifying.
It was the, the, and it's so funny because then you go, you do all of that and then you
have to, then you're like, like dancing around really slow and you're like, no, no,
I need to, I've got to get like, I'm literally feel like I could scream cause I'm like, right,
I've done this really, really fast thing and now I've just got to go.
(38:39):
Yeah.
And it's such a buildup, like this huge buildup, like in from 'No Question' into 'Disco Ball' was
like, boom, boom, boom.
Oh yeah.
Oh my God.
It's going to happen.
It's going to happen.
Yeah.
So that was definitely one of the moments when I was like, oh my God.
And but also that, um, with my Faye Ginn character, because this is the first job I'd ever done.
(39:01):
And for me, the hardest thing that I find in my career is learning lines and I know
it's nothing compared to what you have to learn, but because also in the rehearsals
and in previews, loads of things would change, those things would get caught.
And with me, if I've learned something, like I said, with the just in case story with Toby
earlier, back to the piano, back to the piano.
(39:23):
If I've learned something, I'm really, that's something that I really have to work on to
change it.
So there were so many things, like I think I'd started with, like it was a bigger scene
then it got cut down really short, then it went like to a medium length and so many things
were like challenging.
But I feel like that for me, like it was just, it was just really fun because it was a completely,
(39:45):
it was just a random, it was just a random character put into it.
It was one of the best bits of it.
It was fun.
Yeah.
And there was a, there was a brilliant moment in that where the phone signal
goes.
Yeah.
I used to love watching you do those moments where the phone was freezing and it's, you
(40:05):
know, it's, yeah, it's a, it is a really lovely character.
It's very different to the workshop as well, I think, because I think Faye Ginn in the workshop
was a much bigger character when Millie O'Connell was playing her.
Yeah.
Which was insane that I got to do the role that she originated, which was like, okay.
But so well.
Big boots to fill.
Yeah.
But yeah, I didn't actually get to watch the workshop.
(40:26):
I had no idea.
I was so oblivious to this, which is crazy because I'm so obsessed with it.
It's not that crazy.
I feel like I only knew about it because I'm an unhinged fan.
I only knew about it because I just zero in on anything that looks gay.
And so, yeah.
And again, one of the things is that there were a lot of musicals that are queer musicals
(40:50):
or musicals that represent people from different communities that only get to workshop stage
and don't get further because not enough people are able to get on it to give it enough momentum.
Yeah.
And I think, again, one of the things I'm hoping that comes from this research that
I'm doing is that people understand how important it is to support workshops where they're public
and to get to know musicals that are in development so that we can kind of build a following for
(41:13):
them.
So that there is a kind of the momentum is there to be able to give it a final outlet,
wherever that might be.
Yeah.
But that's great.
Thank you so much for sharing those those those stories there.
The other thing that occurred to me as well is that one of the things as a as a teacher
that I find is so many of my students are neurodiverse.
I'm also neurodiverse as well and I'm dyspraxic, which means I find it very difficult to do
(41:36):
anything visual, anything to do with movement, because it's all to do with, you know, trying
to copy patterns.
I just can't do it.
But to me, it makes me think about how important it is to make musical theatre accessible as
well for people who are, you know, neurodiverse in all sorts of different ways.
And I think that's really important as well and something else about representation that
(41:58):
that needs looking at, I think, and all the crossovers with that.
I was going to ask you as well about where you'd like to see musical theatre go in the
future.
What sort of what sort of gaps do you think there are in representation that that new
there might be new musicals that would include those sorts of characters or other stories
(42:19):
that you know already that you think would would make a good musical?
I mean, I just want more trans people on stages, yeah, especially big like West End stages
as like, as a queer non-binary person who also identifies as part of the trans community.
Like, even like, even when I went to go and see Death Becomes Her, when I went to go and
(42:44):
see Death Becomes Her on Broadway, like, just the fact that there was a non-binary person
in the ensemble.
I was like, oh my god, that's so cool.
And I'm like, we are so starved of any kind of representation.
I'm just like, more, please more.
Because like, we, we as non-binary people, the most representation we have is Oliver.
(43:13):
Like for the best kind of representation you can have, like a fully formed character is
Oliver.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They're gone.
Yeah.
Hopefully they come back.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I feel like just going off what you said, I feel like it's almost like, what's the word
I'm looking for?
(43:33):
Like, like seeing a non-binary person or a trans person in a show, it's almost like,
it doesn't happen often.
So when you see it, you're like, oh my god, that's great.
And like, it doesn't even need to be, this is like, it doesn't have to be a brand new
piece of work.
It just needs to be different casting choices, I think, like, even like Jinkx Monsoon in
(43:57):
anything that she's done.
None of those characters are necessarily trans or non-binary characters, but they just happen
to have a non-binary person playing that character.
So it's not that we, well, we obviously do need more trans, non-binary, queer storylines,
but just the fact that teams like directors, casting teams are open to going a way that
(44:21):
hasn't necessarily been done before.
I think that's what we kind of need to see more of.
Sorry.
Yeah.
Really just interrupted.
I was literally so engorged in what you were saying.
Engorged?
Oh my god.
Engorged.
That's a great word.
That's a great word.
Let's keep that word in.
Let's keep that word in.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think for me, with my journey, I feel like I would love for bigger people in general
(44:50):
to not be the funny part, which really contradicts what I said, because I do think that that
is my casting, the funniness, but...
But you have range, babe.
I feel like with my experience, if I'm getting called in for a show or a job, I'm never the
character that I'm like, I necessarily would love to be seen for, because I'm like, I don't
(45:15):
look that part.
Like a massive thing for me was in drama school, we did Legally Blonde in our third year show,
and I was like, I just knew that I won.
This is just how I thought I'm never going to get called in for Elle, because I don't
look like her, which definitely has changed, because I think Courtney did an amazing job
(45:36):
in the Regents' Park.
And I think that was a massive step forward for a black woman of a bigger nature playing
Elle Woods.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Never, never thought that I'd be called in for Elle Woods.
Never was.
Would have loved to played one of the Delta Nus.
I knew I never would, because I don't look like how the Delta Nus would look like.
(45:58):
And this was like four or five years ago as well, so it's changed massively now.
But I just feel like even now, there's some roles I'd die to be in for, but I just never
would because this industry is so based off our headshots, which is wild to me.
Yes.
Like, why are we being judged off the way, off like our face, you don't like most headshots
as well.
(46:19):
You don't get to see the rest of the body.
I feel like if we're going to do that, then maybe have like a big picture, like a full
picture of exactly what you want.
And also, like, I don't know, there's just, I feel in a bit of an awkward place at the
minute with the casting, because I feel like if I want to be, if I want to be the parts
(46:40):
that I want to be, I'm like, I'm going to have to change myself.
That's how I feel.
But am I not going to get casted as the funny roles if I do lose weight?
Because as much as we hate to say it, most of the times when people get the funny roles
is because they've got this bigger nature.
This is just how I feel like, I know if I was casting a comedy role, but then I'd lost
(47:03):
all this amount of weight, then people will be like, oh, it's not funny anymore.
But like, why is it funny?
Why am I not funny now?
I'm not changed as a person.
I think this is, I think a person to think about with this is, I watched an interview
with Rebel Wilson, and she said for years that she wanted to lose weight, but she was
(47:25):
scared that if she did, she wouldn't be in for the roles that she loves to play.
And I just sat there and thought, oh my, that is awful that you think of that.
But it's all like, I feel like for ages, and I said, it definitely is changing, not as
much as I would like, it needs to, because I had so many people as well, had so many
messages and people coming up to me at stage door and saying like, we are so happy that
(47:51):
they've, and I always thank Toby and Lucy for this, because it's like little people,
little people, that sounds really weird, like young people would come up to me and be like,
you have made me want to go back into it, like you, and I'm like, do it, but I'm telling
you now, it's not easy, it's so not easy, and there's so many times where I am quite
(48:12):
lucky in the sense of, I've got quite a thick skin, even though my mum wouldn't say so,
because I'm like, but I feel like, for the things that I put myself into, I feel like
I've got a thick skin.
Oh, completely, we have to.
Yeah.
And it's like, if I was, there is sometimes when I go into auditions and I think, I'm
the biggest person in this room by far, there's no way, there's no way they're going to pick
(48:34):
me, because from, if you looked at me, I bet half the time they think she's not going to
be able to get through an eight minute number, but then I do 'Disco Ball', I mean, it was hard,
but that is just something that I feel like at the minute I would want more of.
I can totally agree, I mean, I am also a larger person, and I think it's really important
(48:54):
that we have those roles, and some of those roles that are written specifically for large
people or for trans people or for queer people, whatever it might be, but also that some of
these roles that we're talking about, that they are also available, I mean, I think that
the Regents Park open air theatre production of Legally Blonde, that you mentioned, I mean,
if people want to spin back to series one of this, I interviewed people from that show,
(49:16):
Jo was one of them, actually, Jo Foster was one of them, and how important that was.
And how important that was also for, you know, for its trans representation.
And so hopefully, there is going to be space for those, those, those ways of casting and
those productions, but I think we have to work quite hard to keep on pushing for those
(49:38):
and anyone listening to this as well, you know, keep pushing for those things at whatever
level you work at.
I think that's really important.
And keep encouraging those people, those teachers, who you're working with to consider things
out of the box as well.
Yeah.
It's been so lovely to talk to you both.
Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
And yeah, thank you very much for listening at home, and hopefully we'll see you soon.
(50:03):
Thanks very much, everyone.
Bye.
Thank you.
Bye.
Thank you for listening to represent the queer musical theatre podcast.
The research for this series is funded by the British Academy early career researchers
network seed fund, and supported by Sheffield Hallam University.
The episodes were recorded at the Content is Queen podcast studios at the Makerversity
(50:23):
at Somerset House.
For more information, go to contentisqueen.org.
Next time, we continue with why am I so single as we are joined by Owen McHugh, superstar
swing who is currently appearing in Brigadoon at the Regents Park Open Air Theatre.
See you then.
You're listening to Represent, the queer musical theatre podcast.
(00:04):
My name is Dr. James Lovelock, and I'm an academic and a huge musical theatre fan exploring
the representation of all things queer in the musical theatre industry.
My guests today are the amazing Jordan Cambridge-Taylor and the fabulous Olivia O'Connor from the
recent production of Why Am I So Single at the Garrick Theatre.
(00:25):
We discuss the casting process for the show, find out what made the rehearsal room so welcoming,
and explore why this show means so much to its audiences.
We also look at non-binary and plus-size representation in musical theatre, as well as finding out
about what the Pineapple Studios' Lost Property box contains for emergency audition situations.
(00:46):
As always, you can follow us on your favourite podcast platform, and don't forget to share
this episode on social media.
Let's get started.
My name's Olivia O'Connor, and I was in the ensemble of Why Am I So Single, and I also
played the agent who was called Faye Ginn, and if you don't get that, it's actually an Oliver
reference, but don't worry, it took me a while for me to get into.
(01:09):
Excellent.
My name is Jordan Cambridge-Taylor, pronouns are they/them, and I played alternate Oliver.
Woo!
Yeah, excellent.
Hurrah!
So, I'm going to ask you to tell us a little bit about how you got into musical theatre,
what drew you to musical theatre as a kind of a genre or as a way of expressing yourself.
So who would like to start with that one?
(01:30):
Woo!
Okay.
Well, I'm basically just a huge fan of musical theatre, and I sometimes, sometimes, most
of the time, feel like I've just managed to weasel myself in to performing.
Honestly, the obsession.
Wicked.
Yeah, it's, some may say unhealthy.
(01:51):
I don't think so.
Currently, it's Death Becomes Her.
Oh, yes.
Oh, my God.
Excellent.
But yeah, very much just a fan, was obsessed with movie musicals.
My mum tried to put me in dance classes when I was little because she was like, oh, maybe
a performer, and I tried one class and I thought, not for me.
Singing, however, have always done.
Never had lessons until GSA though, which is fun.
(02:14):
We did go to a dance class together, I remember that.
We did go to a dance class together.
And it wasn't what we expected.
No, it was really hard.
It was so hard.
Like, if we didn't have, if I didn't have you in there, I think tears would have been
shed.
Oh, same.
Same, same, same.
And when was this?
Was this a long time ago?
This was when we were still in the show.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
(02:34):
Yeah.
When we had some because.
We were like, oh, we're comfy in the show now.
So let's go do some classes.
And especially because there was like previews and rehearsals for all the covers and swings.
There was like, it felt like we was in the theatre so much.
And when we did have three days, it's like, we're like a bit bored.
Like, what are we going to do with our lives?
But then me and Jordan decided to go to a little dance class.
Lovely.
(02:55):
Excellent.
And how did you get into a musical theatre, Liv?
How did I get into musical theatre?
I actually started off as a pop, like pop singing was my thing.
And I had singing lessons, I think from like, 10, 11.
And yeah, just always sang pop songs.
And then I went to secondary school.
(03:16):
I did like a Saturday school at somewhere called the Theatre Workshop in Birmingham
and just kind of fell in love with it.
And then in school, we did, this is really, really dramatic, but we did the schools like
X Factor.
Wow.
And that at the time, that was like, if you got into the X Factor at school, you had some
street cred.
(03:37):
Amazing.
And then so I did that.
And then my school had a sixth form, but performing arts.
If there wasn't enough people to do performing arts, then you just couldn't pick it.
Right.
Which was annoying.
But also, I do get it because as much as I would love to have a one woman class of performing
arts, but the head teacher actually said to me, and my music teacher was like, you can't
(03:59):
stay here.
Like you need to go, go and do it because they felt like I had something in me.
So I was like, okay, went to a college in Stratford, musical theatre.
And at this point, I didn't really know much about drama school.
And then that's where we learn.
And I was like, oh, okay, I'll get I want to do it.
Yeah.
So they like set us all up.
(04:19):
I couldn't I always say I couldn't thank Stratford College in Birmingham enough because they really
just taught me everything.
And then yeah, just started to fall more and more in love with it.
That's great.
That's excellent.
And one of the things I'm interested in as well.
So this is a podcast about representation.
And obviously, for first and foremost, LGBTQ+ representation.
(04:39):
But I'm also really interested in how musical theatre can be accessible to people from different
backgrounds.
And particularly, you know, in terms of people who maybe are working class actors or actors
from areas where there isn't a pathway that's clear all the way through.
So it's really interesting you talk about that.
And it's something I think we'll probably come back to as well.
The other thing I was going to ask you is, was there a musical or, or some musicals that
(05:03):
you really kind of hooked you or you saw yourself in or anything like that when you first started?
Don't look at me like that.
Where do I start?
Wicked.
Wicked was like the musical that got me into like performing fully because before I was
like, oh, that's really cool.
(05:23):
That's really fun.
I didn't realise it was a job.
I saw Wicked on tour, it came to my local theatre.
And I have such a distinct memory of watching 'The Wizard and I' and thinking, like, just
beside myself.
I was like, I need to do that.
Yeah, I need to do that.
Yeah, probably that.
It's an amazing show, isn't it Wicked?
Yeah.
I don't know if I've said this on the podcast before, but the thing I love about Wicked,
(05:45):
there's a German version of it.
I don't know whether you've ever seen this, but in the German version, it's much more
queer because for some reason, Glinda and Elphaba, the actors that play them are allowed
to be a lot more expressive.
Is that the non-replica production?
Yes, it is.
Yeah.
And that's a video.
I think I'll try to link some clips for this in the information about the episode.
(06:09):
But there was something about that because for ages, I struggled to think about what
it was that I really loved in Wicked and why I was so connected to these characters.
But it's such a love story, isn't it, between Elphaba and Glinda?
And I think those of us from the LGBTQ community, I think a lot of us really kind of connect
with that really strongly.
What about you, Liv?
(06:29):
What was a musical you loved?
I think I actually think the first musical that I watched was Wicked.
I think we went on like, I think it was a school trip, either with my theatre school
or my secondary school.
I can't remember.
But that was definitely the one where I was like, okay, this is it.
I actually don't have like a musical that like, made me think, oh, I want to go into
(06:54):
it.
But I definitely think now that the musical that I'm most desperate to be in is Six.
Oh, wow.
Okay.
Do you have any particular queen that you would like to be?
I say this all the time.
I feel like you've heard this story about a million times, Jordan, but if like for my
voice and what I think that sounds the nicest in my voice, I think would be Seymour or Parr.
(07:19):
Okay.
'Heart of Stone' or 'I Don't Need Your Love', me having to think there.
But I think with my character and who I am as a person, I think it would be either Aragon
who sings 'No Way' or Boleyn who sings 'Don't Lose Your Head', because I like to be quite
fun and silly on stage and I feel like you can't really add a bit of fun and silly to
(07:41):
'Heart of Stone'.
You could try.
I mean, you could try.
Maybe that'll be my twist.
Maybe you should just be like Toby, Lucy, can we switch this up?
Yeah, can we?
I think I'm the person for it.
I find that interesting about, you know, how sometimes the the roles that we really love
as characters are sometimes different to the roles that are written for our voices.
(08:05):
And I think that's a really interesting thing that people are starting to think about now
when they're casting is, well, can we change the keys of these songs?
Can we do things to make them fit the cast better?
And I think a lot of that actually comes from working with trans and non-binary singers
that later on in this in this series, I'll be talking to some people who were in Fangirls,
(08:25):
the musical, and Fangirls is one where they definitely every time that they do a new production,
they change the keys and not just for the trans and non-binary members of cast, but
for everybody to find the place where it fits the best.
And I wonder how far that's something that you've experienced in your training or, you
know, in the productions that you've done.
(08:46):
Is it something, you know, are there conversations about the key that fits you?
I think with what you said earlier about, I can't remember how you worded it, but something
that I struggle with, with my voice is that the characters that, no, my voice sounds like,
for example, in Dear Evan Hansen, I feel like my voice is very suited to Zoe, but with me,
(09:08):
I couldn't see myself as a Zoe because of who I am as a person.
And I know that's the beauty of acting, but I feel like with that sometimes like really
contradicts myself and like, I'm like, right, okay, my voice really suits the role of Zoe,
but do I feel like, because I'm so bubbly and silly, do I feel like I could?
But it's acting.
I know.
(09:28):
Sometimes I just think, oh my God, am I actually an actor then?
It's a really interesting conversation though, isn't it, about, you know, because I don't
think what I'm trying to say here is that you can only play roles that are similar to
you as a person, but there's also a sense that for some of us it's very difficult to
find those roles that are similar to us as a person because they're not really being
(09:50):
written.
Not at all.
And I think that's a very big thing, particularly with queer representation, but with all sorts
of representation as well, they're just characters that are not being written.
And I think that one of the things that I'm interested in talking about, what are those
sorts of roles, you know, that we're looking for and how can we, you know, how can we find
more of those roles?
I mean, again, this will link into Why Am I So Single? in a little bit, because that's,
(10:14):
you know, that was clearly a musical which was writing for characters that we hadn't
seen before and an ensemble that we hadn't seen before.
And so I do find that interesting to kind of look at.
Do you find this, Jordan, when you're looking at roles or when you're looking at things
to audition for, that there's space for you to be able to look at what works best for
(10:35):
your voice and for your personality?
Occasionally.
I feel like it's been a rarity, to be honest, because a lot of the things I've auditioned
for since graduating is very much like a, like a continuing production of something
(10:56):
that's already happened.
So they're like, oh, that works.
Let's keep that formula.
Go ahead with that.
So it's, it feels like a lot of the things that I've been in for can feel, although they
might not necessarily be, but can feel quite box-ticky, being like, great.
You can sing this.
You look this certain way.
Brilliant.
(11:17):
Yeah.
Whereas, like, going back to Why Am I So Single?, that felt very different in terms of that
audition process.
Because, well, I was like, oh, a character that I see myself in, and I had so many friends
come to the show and they're like, oh, you're not acting.
That's just you.
That's just, which is a testament to the brilliant writing.
(11:39):
One of the things with Why Am I So Single?, I was lucky enough to see that quite a few
times.
And so I saw you play the role and I saw Jo play the role.
And it's lovely that they were so different in terms of accent, in terms of tone.
And I think that that's, that's something, again, that's been fairly rare in musical
theatre until recently, that they allow the alternate or the understudy to put their own
(12:00):
spin on it.
Yeah.
And I think that that's, that's something that really stood out to me about Why Am I
So Single? and about the way that you were able to play that role.
If you're interested in LGBTQ+ representation in musical theatre, check out our website
www.queermusicals.com for lots more information about musicals with LGBTQ+ characters.
(12:30):
I'm going to take you back all the way to the beginning of this because I'd like to
talk about Why Am I So Single? in a little bit of detail.
So we've just talked about when you first got this through as a thing to audition for.
I mean, I'm a little bit, I have to say I'm a little bit naive about how these audition
things work.
So was this something that your agent found for you or something that you found
and how did that work in terms of how you kind of looked for it?
(12:53):
So we actually met, side note, me and Liv met before we both were cast in Why Am I So
Single?.
So Liv was auditioning for the show already.
I had known about it and been like, oh my God, I need to get in for this show.
It seems really up my street.
Yeah.
So actually that is true.
We met, what was it?
Oh God.
It was the Starlight Skate Day.
We were both in for that as well.
(13:16):
Yeah, we were both in for that.
And that's when we first met each other and we did actually speak.
That's really weird how the world, I mean, it probably wasn't an in-depth conversation,
but I definitely said hello to you.
Right.
Anyway.
Yeah.
So we knew of each other, even though you don't remember that.
And then my agent got an email through and actually called me because by this time I'd
(13:41):
been in for Six quite a few times and that was like a big thing for me.
And my agent at the time rang me and was like, oh, Marlow and Moss are writing a new musical.
And I was like, okay.
I remember being at work and I was just like, okay, right.
Acting really cool.
And as soon as I ended the phone, I was like to my friend who I work for, because I work
at this stage school back home called Classic Theatrics, and I was like to one of my colleagues,
(14:04):
I was like, right, I need to send the self-typing by this date.
My friend's husband is a videographer, like he films all the football games.
I was like, I need you.
We're going to film this professionally because this is like, this is it.
I always say, and I know it's really easy to say because I've done the job, but I was
like something about this because my best friend Jayden as well, he sent me, Lucy and
(14:27):
Toby done a video like, oh, we've just finished writing our next musical.
And Jayden was like, you have to go in for this.
Like you are getting this.
And I've still got the screenshot of the message and I was like, oh my God, look at it now.
But yeah, we had to send, I think our journey might be a bit different.
I had to send in a self-tape of a pop song of your own choice.
(14:50):
So did that, did the self-tape and then got asked to come back in.
I think in total, I think I did about four or five singing rounds and then probably three
or four dance rounds.
And then there was the big final.
But in that final, I always say this, and I used to say all the time to Ellen Kane,
(15:17):
who was our choreographer, I was like, how on earth did you pick the amount of people
that were in that room and all the people, like, I was like, if I had to pick, there's
no way I could have picked because everyone was, it was just the best thing I'd ever seen
in my life.
Like I was so in awe of everyone and after I was like, how on earth are they going to
(15:38):
pick?
But yeah, there was loads of different elements of the show that we had to do over the audition
process.
So you went in and sung your pop song again.
And then this fearful thing that I feel like I always think of is, please don't ask me
for a second song and do not ask to look in my rep folder because there's songs in there
that I haven't sung for years.
(15:59):
Why don't you just take it out?
I know, but I was under pressure and it's so funny as well because I sang my song, which
was 'Don't Be So Hard On Yourself' by Jess Glynne, absolute tune.
And then, and actually, if I do say so myself, a really good song for the show, 'Don't Be
So Hard On Yourself'.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(16:19):
Yeah.
That's my opinion.
But I think when I hear Jess Glynne, I just go to Jet2Holidays.
And then Toby was like, oh, can we, can we hear another song?
I was like, like, literally tears in my eyes and they were like, what have you got?
And I was like, can I have a look?
And I was flicking through my rep folder and thank God I didn't give it to Toby because
(16:42):
'Heart of Stone' was in there.
I was like, imagine if they were like, yep, can we do that one?
I'd be like, oh really?
But, um, I did the one that, I think I picked 'The One That Got Away' by Katy Perry
again.
Tune.
Also brilliant song, tune.
I remember being like 11 years old, being like, what the hell is going on?
And then we got given material and some people in the ensemble got given 'C U Never', some
(17:06):
people got given 'Just In Case', um, I got 'Just In Case'.
And I remember I just, every round that I did, I was like, okay, this is, you try not
to, but you do plan your life.
Don't get your hopes up.
Don't get your hopes up.
You don't get your hopes up.
You don't plan your life.
Me, still planning my life.
Yes.
And I remember I went in and also as the rounds, sorry, I'm literally talking for hours.
(17:29):
As the rounds went on, more and more people like started to join the panel.
So it was like, you were going in with more and more stuff and more and more people just
appeared.
And I was like, oh my, I would rather sing in front of a million people in an auditorium
than eight people in a well lit room with their eyes just on you like this.
(17:49):
But it was always such good vibes.
And I remember there was, you know, it's like the Nokia sound, which I didn't
know in 'Just In Case'.
So many things happened during the show that I was like, oh my God, that's that.
And like the cast would be like, really, I'm so slow.
As hard as I say about the screen, I just couldn't, I couldn't get the tune.
(18:10):
I just couldn't do it.
So Toby was like, right, come on over here.
And I went over to the piano and they were working and also with me, you can sit at
the piano with me for half an hour and teach me this one sentence, but I will go back in
front of everyone and I will sing it exactly the same as I sang before.
And I remember poor Toby worked on it with me for like what felt like an hour, but was
(18:33):
probably five minutes.
And I went back and I sang it exactly the same.
And I was like, I promise if you call me back, I'll get it right.
And then, yeah, and then it just, I couldn't believe, I couldn't believe, but I could cause
I was like, this is, I feel like for representation in all sorts, I feel like as a bigger girl,
(18:54):
I feel like I was like, this is what needs to happen.
And if it's not me, please let it be someone else that's of a bigger stature.
Because I feel like from my experience, there's not a lot of that in an ensemble, in a dancing
ensemble.
So I was like, God, if I get this, this is just, I wish younger me would have been able
to watch me do it.
(19:14):
Cause I just remember never going to shows and seeing people being like, that's not,
I can't see myself in there because someone like me isn't in it.
So yeah, that's, I feel like that's the big thing that I've really taken from the show
is to know that someone like me can do it.
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah.
And of course, so many people who've seen it will also take that as well, is why representation
(19:36):
is so important.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you for that.
God I really rambled on there.
No, that was great.
It's really important.
And actually really useful.
A lot of people who listen to this podcast, the students, so really helpful for them as
well to kind of know how this process works.
And so Jordan, was it quite, quite different for you in terms of how you...?
Very different.
I am.
(19:57):
So I actually heard from a friend that, cause I, I'd seen all of the stuff like about the
workshop online, what's on stage.
And I was like, wow, that looks cool.
Jo looks a bit like me.
Maybe, maybe that's something that could work.
And then yeah, I went to go and see one of my friends in a show and they're like, oh,
someone else in the cast is, is auditioning for this show.
I think you'd be really good for it.
(20:17):
And I was like, oh, I didn't know that.
I didn't know this was happening.
And yeah.
As soon as I found out, I messaged my agent being like, I need to get into this.
This sounds perfect.
And then yeah.
Couldn't, couldn't for a good while because they were, I think they were just looking
for dancers at that point.
And I was like, great.
Okay.
(20:38):
So maybe it's not going to happen for me.
And then I had just gotten two really big no's and I was like, well, I guess this is
it for me.
I've literally got in like so many times for months on end for these two shows and then
got no's.
And I was like, great.
Maybe I should rethink my career choices.
And then literally the week after the audition for this came through, like the character
(21:02):
description, I was like, this is, yeah, this is me.
And then went in, so funnily enough, on the day of my first round, I feel like this might
have helped my audition actually, because it calmed me down quite a bit because I only
had to go in, I did one scene and I sang a bit of 'Disco Ball'.
(21:25):
And beforehand I had just been in for Cats and it was a nightmare.
I was in the day before and they were like, can you learn this other song?
Come back.
And I was like, great.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Went back.
Everyone was in dance gear.
And I was like, I haven't been told anything about this.
Went up to the people and they were like, oh yeah, yeah, it's a dance round.
(21:45):
Meanwhile, I'm there in like my nice little skirt, mesh top combo and I'm like, oh, okay.
They're like, go to Lost Property if you need some stuff.
So I marched all the way down in Pineapple Bloody Studios to Lost Property, picked up
these.
Anyway, anyway, it was stinky.
It was really stinky.
I ended up ripping open my big toe because I didn't have shoes that I could dance in.
(22:08):
So I was having a nightmare of a day.
I did a nice face in the morning, it all melted off because I didn't know what setting spray
was at this point in my life.
I got these little GAP camo, what they call jogging bottoms, but they were too small.
They were for 13 year old girls, like that was the sizing on the inside.
So they literally look like, I don't know, they look like little mini shorts on me.
(22:31):
And then the stinkiest Under Armour top you've ever smelt in your life.
And I was like, well, I guess this is being an actor.
I can't believe they told you to go to Lost Property.
I was like, listen, I'm here.
I'm going to do it, I guess.
I've never walked out of an audition before, so I guess I'm going to do it anyway.
That went really badly.
So I was like, well, I couldn't get any possibly lower today.
(22:53):
I went into the bloody audition for Why Am I So Single and Lucy was like, how's your
day going?
And I was like, babe, I'm having an absolute mare.
I fully said everything.
That is hilarious.
And I was like, oh, I've just told you way too much information, so I feel quite comfortable
now.
And then, yeah, and then I felt very much in the right mindset to do that and 'Disco
(23:20):
Ball' because I was already having a breakdown that day, so.
What did you actually have to, what section of 'Disco Ball' did you have to sing from?
The beginning, I had to do 'Oh Nancy Darling Baby...' and I was like, what is this?
What is this?
And they were like, can you do a Patti LuPone impression?
And I was like, can I do a Patti LuPone impression?
No.
(23:41):
I was like, I'll give you a Cher if you want.
So they were like, sure, sure.
So I did Cher for the 'Oh Nancy Darling...' and Lord knows why I did that and here we are.
And yeah, I literally did like a two minute cut.
It was basically the first, I don't know, first chorus and then skip to the end.
(24:05):
So just, 'ah...', It's a tough song, isn't it?
Tell me about it.
Tell me about it, that I, so that was okay, that audition, because that was at one o'clock
in the afternoon.
So I was like, great.
I've done a dance round.
I've already sung today.
I'm warm.
My finals was at 10 o'clock in the bloody morning, 10 o'clock in the bloody morning.
(24:26):
I know mine isn't as extreme as 'Disco Ball', but I traveled up from Southampton.
I was up at like five o'clock in the morning and I was like, right, I need to warm up.
And I'm there doing lip trills on the train.
Any singing audition before 12, it's hell and horror.
Illegal.
Illegal.
Should be illegal.
But I always do have this saying that if it is before 12 and I crack or it goes bad, then
(24:50):
I can blame it on the early.
If I'm cracking at 4pm, I've already, I'm already supposed to have done a matinee,
So I shouldn't be cracking.
Oh dear.
Yeah, I feel like in the mornings you do have a bit of an excuse.
If you want to follow us on social media, you can use Queer.Musicals on Instagram
or Facebook, or you can follow me at DrJamesLovelock on Instagram.
(25:21):
The next thing I wanted to ask you about is the first day that you all got together.
So the first time that you met the rest of the cast and how that felt and how that worked,
because I guess it's different for every show that you do.
I'm thinking specifically about Why Am I So Single? with, I guess, quite a diverse cast,
but also a very queer cast as well.
And how that felt in terms of, you know, just seeing who you were going to be putting this
(25:43):
show on its feet with.
I've never been more nervous in my life, to be completely honest.
I remember coming straight up to you and I was like, I've watched your Instagram videos.
You're a great singer.
And you were like, oh, thank you.
I always say this, it's so weird how, like on the first day, how we all were, we were
with each other compared to like the last day.
(26:04):
Like it's so weird to think that you saw me as this shy person.
That's really weird.
But I think it was, it was weird because before our show even opened, we had the West End
Live rehearsals.
Which was lovely.
Which was so nice.
It felt like a little boot camp.
So it was nice to have that, but some people couldn't do West End Live.
So then it was so funny because the people who did the workshop was like, especially
(26:29):
with them, Jemima, who was our dance captain on the show, Jemima couldn't do West End Live.
And everyone was like, you're gonna love Jemima, Jemima is great.
And I was like, who's Jemima?
But now like I'm like, yeah, absolutely, she's great.
But I feel like it was good that we had that West End Live bit.
And then we had like two, well, you might not have had as long as me, was you in a
(26:53):
week before?
We were in a week before, yeah.
Then I had like a two week break.
We had a nice little holiday.
We had a nice little holiday.
Two week break and then we went back and there was, remember how many people were in that
room?
We all stood in a circle.
Oh my god.
Which was so great because everyone got to introduce themselves, pronouns were said and
(27:13):
like it was just, and then what did we say?
We had to say.
Yeah.
Who our best friend was.
Who our best friend was.
That was lovely.
Lucy was like, everyone go around, say your name, say your pronouns, like what your role
is in the show and who your best friend was.
And it was just really nice hearing that part of everybody.
There was so many people.
There were so many people.
It took us so long.
And I'm like, how am I going to remember everyone's name?
But it's so weird how quickly you do remember people's names.
(27:36):
Yeah, it was really nice.
That's lovely.
And then as you kind of went through, do you think there's a difference in being in a room
which I think I'm right in saying a majority queer creative team.
Is there anything that's different about that or anything that you think works in a different
way when you've got that sort of space?
(27:57):
It's the best.
It's the absolute best.
That's my favorite room I've ever been in.
I've never felt more comfortable.
I mean, bearing in mind, I was pooping my pants most days because I was like, I mean,
Jo like knew it, like the back of their hand because they did the workshop and it was kind
of molded around them.
Whereas I was like, I have no idea what half of this show is, but like, I've never felt
(28:22):
like I've been in safer hands to be completely honest.
It was so good.
It was just nice.
Like, I feel like also I learned so much being in that show that I feel like I probably wouldn't
have learned completely.
I learned more in that show than I did my whole three years at drama school.
Yeah.
Like if I never would have, if I never would have been in that show, I probably wouldn't
know half of that.
(28:43):
I've learned so much new terminology, like I've learned loads of different things within
the queer community that I'm like probably was around me all the time, but because I
wasn't there firsthand experiencing it and also like being there for my friends in
the queer community, experiencing things as well, like seeing how can I, how can I change
(29:06):
their experience or how can I learn and make things better for them, which is like, it's
so great.
Like there's so many things that I didn't know.
Like I just remember, but it's so good because I'm the sort of person to just be like, what
is that?
Like, please tell me I'm not, cause also I don't want to, I don't want to use something
in the wrong context.
So if anyone says something that I'm like, what, what, what's that?
(29:26):
I don't feel, I feel like it's better for me to ask them to just stay back and be like,
Oh, I'm not going to, I'm not going to touch on that surface because I'm not very educated
in it because I'm like, no, if I'm going to be in this queer musical, which I was also
so appreciative of because me personally, I'm not queer, big fat ally though.
But like, I, this world, this world has always been around me and like, I've got a lot of
(29:51):
queer friends.
In fact, most of my friends are queer, but it's like, I didn't know much about their
queer side.
If that makes sense.
That sounds really weird, but yeah, there's just like, there's so many things that I'm
like, that would happen or things that people would go through that I'd be like, I'm just
so oblivious to that happening because I would never think of that being a thing, which is
(30:14):
really weird.
But yeah, I feel like I, I'm so grateful to have done it and now I'm like, every room,
every musical that I want to be in has to be queer because nothing's going to beat that.
Nothing's going to beat that experience.
Unfortunately not.
So Jordan, was there anything in the, in the room which you think specifically made it
more accessible or more joyful for queer people?
(30:37):
Is there any things that were ways of working that were different?
I feel like because of, because the tone of the show is very, doesn't take itself too
seriously.
Very, I don't know, very tongue in cheek, very now.
That's just kind of how, very now, who am I?
(31:01):
It's very now.
Yeah.
That's just how the room felt.
Even like with warmups, I remember like we'd have like Chappell Roan warmups and that was
just the best thing ever.
Oh my God.
The day that guests come out.
Oh yes.
Oh, okay.
So queer culture was at its peak when we were in rehearsals for this show.
It was Brat Summer, mid Brat Summer, the day that 'Guess' came out, did we just do the whole
(31:23):
warmup to that song?
Yeah, we kept replaying it.
And even Toby and Lucy were warming up with us.
It was like the world was being taken over.
And it was just great.
It was an incredible.
It was an incredible.
It was an incredible.
It was an incredible.
I think that's an excellent sentence that should be repeated whenever possible.
(31:44):
That's amazing though, to have that kind of, almost like the outside world coming into
the rehearsal room in that way.
And I suppose on the other hand, you know, things have changed actually such a lot since
even since Why Am I So Single closed, you know, even the last six months, there's been
such a big change in the way that the world is.
(32:04):
And I think one of the things that I want to think about later is how we keep Why Am
I So Single as a resource that people can keep coming back to.
And certainly there were a lot of my students would have seen themselves for the first time
in that show.
Completely.
Yeah.
I think particularly, obviously non-binary students, but also, I mean, the song 'Disco
(32:25):
Ball' is for me as an older gay person, that's a song that is something about me that I have
never seen represented anywhere ever.
And so I'm really interested in, well, first of all, I'm really interested in the moments
that stood out for you as performers or when you were looking at the script or when you
(32:46):
were performing, what were the moments that you loved about the show?
I'm gonna go straight in with just after 'Lost'.
There's a scene, like a really small scene between Oliver and Nancy.
And it's kind of like the emotional climax of the show.
And it's the first time that I, oh, dear, yeah, that's the first time that I really
(33:12):
felt represented when Nancy kind of explores more pronouns with Oliver and they're still
not sure on their identity at that point.
And I remember when in the first week of rehearsals, when it was me, Jo, Lisa, Colette, Toby and
(33:35):
Lucy and Joe Beighton and Sarah (and Sarah) and we were all just sat around this table.
It was the last day we did a full like read through, sing through and it got to that bit
and we were all just sobbing and holding each other.
And oh, yeah, I've never felt like I've been in a safer, more inclusive space in my life.
(33:59):
So that that moment particularly, I could never get through a show without absolutely
losing it at that point.
Yeah.
It just makes you literally feel like I could cry thinking about it.
Yeah.
Like it's such a it's not a sad moment.
It's like the bond of their friendship and I just get so.
It's affirming.
(34:19):
It's an affirming moment.
And it's like, oh, my God, like, yeah, I don't, I'm lost for words.
Even as in the ensemble, like not being on the stage, even looking and seeing how vulnerable
you both were, yeah, it's just like, oh, my God, people are really going to connect to
this because the people who are actually playing it go through these things like will feel
(34:44):
like the emotional towards it will feel like, oh, my God, this is this is a crazy experience.
And I just know that from people, even my mum, like I try to educate my family whenever
I can, every time I can and it's they learn like it's great.
But even my mum's like, oh, my God, like this is awful to think that it's just like, oh,
(35:07):
you just want to get up on the stage and hug them.
Like the amount of times I'd want to just march on and be like, it's all right.
Keep going.
You've got there.
Oh, yeah.
But I can't.
It's like such a fun.
But I also feel like you should be really proud of yourself for being that vulnerable
on stage.
Yeah.
Because I feel like it is really hard, especially when you have to do it over and over and over
again.
Yeah.
And it takes a long time to make it feel so raw to the point where even though I've watched
(35:29):
you do it, God knows how many times and I still get... It's because it's a lived experience.
Yeah.
That's why.
That's why it resonates so much.
And that's I feel like it's such a poignant, poignant, poignant moment.
Because even when I watched Jo do it, I would just sit there and cry and cry.
(35:51):
Yeah.
Yeah, I think that is that's a it is a really beautiful moment there and a kind of I suppose
one of the things one of the difficult things with the show is that you have that moment
at the end and it's quite a long scene series of scenes and songs where there's just two
of you on stage and quite, you know, really hard to sustain that sort of thing.
(36:12):
And that's sort of... tell me about it.
Yeah.
So I think it's but this is why it's so important is to because that moment that you're talking
about that it's not on the cast album.
And so it really only is experienced by people who see the story on stage.
And I guess that's another question is, you know, how do we hopefully there's a future
(36:33):
life for Why Am I So Single? We hope so.
Yeah.
But how do we keep these, these really important moments, which are moments that you only see
in this show?
Yeah.
How do we keep them going?
And how do we keep them alive for, you know, future generations or people who didn't see
it who need to hear those sort of things?
(36:54):
This series of Represent has been recorded at the Content is Queen studio in Somerset
House.
Content is Queen is a podcast agency and community made up of women, people of colour and LGBTQIA
plus people who wish to connect, create and collaborate using audio and podcasting.
For more information, go to contentisqueen.org.
Liv, was there any other moments in it that you love?
(37:16):
It doesn't necessarily have to be a, you know, a poignant moment.
What moments do you, you know, were your highlights of the show?
I think the highlights of like from there's a few things for me, like I feel I was waiting
backstage.
It wasn't like in it.
I don't know.
It wasn't it was exciting, but it was also like an adrenaline rush and like the fear
(37:37):
of it not going right is when I had to be, hold the jacket, like I'm in the wings and
I pass the jacket into 'Disco Ball' and like, I'm just like, if I don't pass this jacket
right, this is going to ruin the whole thing and the panic that used to, and I used to
make one of the dresses, Kim, who used to give it to the point where I wouldn't
(37:59):
get it out of its bag.
I'd be like, Kim, you have got to pass it to me in the way like that it has to go.
And I'd do it every day.
I'd be like, is this the right way?
Is this the right way?
And I'd be overthinking it.
But that like rush of me and I, I remember just having to give it, but at the same time,
I'd have to give it so quickly because I'd have to run and push the set.
Yes.
That whole sequence.
That whole sequence.
Nightmare fuel.
(38:19):
Nightmare fuel.
If one thing went wrong, the whole thing went wrong.
Terrifying.
It was the, the, and it's so funny because then you go, you do all of that and then you
have to, then you're like, like dancing around really slow and you're like, no, no,
I need to, I've got to get like, I'm literally feel like I could scream cause I'm like, right,
I've done this really, really fast thing and now I've just got to go.
(38:39):
Yeah.
And it's such a buildup, like this huge buildup, like in from 'No Question' into 'Disco Ball' was
like, boom, boom, boom.
Oh yeah.
Oh my God.
It's going to happen.
It's going to happen.
Yeah.
So that was definitely one of the moments when I was like, oh my God.
And but also that, um, with my Faye Ginn character, because this is the first job I'd ever done.
(39:01):
And for me, the hardest thing that I find in my career is learning lines and I know
it's nothing compared to what you have to learn, but because also in the rehearsals
and in previews, loads of things would change, those things would get caught.
And with me, if I've learned something, like I said, with the just in case story with Toby
earlier, back to the piano, back to the piano.
(39:23):
If I've learned something, I'm really, that's something that I really have to work on to
change it.
So there were so many things, like I think I'd started with, like it was a bigger scene
then it got cut down really short, then it went like to a medium length and so many things
were like challenging.
But I feel like that for me, like it was just, it was just really fun because it was a completely,
(39:45):
it was just a random, it was just a random character put into it.
It was one of the best bits of it.
It was fun.
Yeah.
And there was a, there was a brilliant moment in that where the phone signal
goes.
Yeah.
I used to love watching you do those moments where the phone was freezing and it's, you
(40:05):
know, it's, yeah, it's a, it is a really lovely character.
It's very different to the workshop as well, I think, because I think Faye Ginn in the workshop
was a much bigger character when Millie O'Connell was playing her.
Yeah.
Which was insane that I got to do the role that she originated, which was like, okay.
But so well.
Big boots to fill.
Yeah.
But yeah, I didn't actually get to watch the workshop.
(40:26):
I had no idea.
I was so oblivious to this, which is crazy because I'm so obsessed with it.
It's not that crazy.
I feel like I only knew about it because I'm an unhinged fan.
I only knew about it because I just zero in on anything that looks gay.
And so, yeah.
And again, one of the things is that there were a lot of musicals that are queer musicals
(40:50):
or musicals that represent people from different communities that only get to workshop stage
and don't get further because not enough people are able to get on it to give it enough momentum.
Yeah.
And I think, again, one of the things I'm hoping that comes from this research that
I'm doing is that people understand how important it is to support workshops where they're public
and to get to know musicals that are in development so that we can kind of build a following for
(41:13):
them.
So that there is a kind of the momentum is there to be able to give it a final outlet,
wherever that might be.
Yeah.
But that's great.
Thank you so much for sharing those those those stories there.
The other thing that occurred to me as well is that one of the things as a as a teacher
that I find is so many of my students are neurodiverse.
I'm also neurodiverse as well and I'm dyspraxic, which means I find it very difficult to do
(41:36):
anything visual, anything to do with movement, because it's all to do with, you know, trying
to copy patterns.
I just can't do it.
But to me, it makes me think about how important it is to make musical theatre accessible as
well for people who are, you know, neurodiverse in all sorts of different ways.
And I think that's really important as well and something else about representation that
(41:58):
that needs looking at, I think, and all the crossovers with that.
I was going to ask you as well about where you'd like to see musical theatre go in the
future.
What sort of what sort of gaps do you think there are in representation that that new
there might be new musicals that would include those sorts of characters or other stories
(42:19):
that you know already that you think would would make a good musical?
I mean, I just want more trans people on stages, yeah, especially big like West End stages
as like, as a queer non-binary person who also identifies as part of the trans community.
Like, even like, even when I went to go and see Death Becomes Her, when I went to go and
(42:44):
see Death Becomes Her on Broadway, like, just the fact that there was a non-binary person
in the ensemble.
I was like, oh my god, that's so cool.
And I'm like, we are so starved of any kind of representation.
I'm just like, more, please more.
Because like, we, we as non-binary people, the most representation we have is Oliver.
(43:13):
Like for the best kind of representation you can have, like a fully formed character is
Oliver.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They're gone.
Yeah.
Hopefully they come back.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I feel like just going off what you said, I feel like it's almost like, what's the word
I'm looking for?
(43:33):
Like, like seeing a non-binary person or a trans person in a show, it's almost like,
it doesn't happen often.
So when you see it, you're like, oh my god, that's great.
And like, it doesn't even need to be, this is like, it doesn't have to be a brand new
piece of work.
It just needs to be different casting choices, I think, like, even like Jinkx Monsoon in
(43:57):
anything that she's done.
None of those characters are necessarily trans or non-binary characters, but they just happen
to have a non-binary person playing that character.
So it's not that we, well, we obviously do need more trans, non-binary, queer storylines,
but just the fact that teams like directors, casting teams are open to going a way that
(44:21):
hasn't necessarily been done before.
I think that's what we kind of need to see more of.
Sorry.
Yeah.
Really just interrupted.
I was literally so engorged in what you were saying.
Engorged?
Oh my god.
Engorged.
That's a great word.
That's a great word.
Let's keep that word in.
Let's keep that word in.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think for me, with my journey, I feel like I would love for bigger people in general
(44:50):
to not be the funny part, which really contradicts what I said, because I do think that that
is my casting, the funniness, but...
But you have range, babe.
I feel like with my experience, if I'm getting called in for a show or a job, I'm never the
character that I'm like, I necessarily would love to be seen for, because I'm like, I don't
(45:15):
look that part.
Like a massive thing for me was in drama school, we did Legally Blonde in our third year show,
and I was like, I just knew that I won.
This is just how I thought I'm never going to get called in for Elle, because I don't
look like her, which definitely has changed, because I think Courtney did an amazing job
(45:36):
in the Regents' Park.
And I think that was a massive step forward for a black woman of a bigger nature playing
Elle Woods.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Never, never thought that I'd be called in for Elle Woods.
Never was.
Would have loved to played one of the Delta Nus.
I knew I never would, because I don't look like how the Delta Nus would look like.
(45:58):
And this was like four or five years ago as well, so it's changed massively now.
But I just feel like even now, there's some roles I'd die to be in for, but I just never
would because this industry is so based off our headshots, which is wild to me.
Yes.
Like, why are we being judged off the way, off like our face, you don't like most headshots
as well.
(46:19):
You don't get to see the rest of the body.
I feel like if we're going to do that, then maybe have like a big picture, like a full
picture of exactly what you want.
And also, like, I don't know, there's just, I feel in a bit of an awkward place at the
minute with the casting, because I feel like if I want to be, if I want to be the parts
(46:40):
that I want to be, I'm like, I'm going to have to change myself.
That's how I feel.
But am I not going to get casted as the funny roles if I do lose weight?
Because as much as we hate to say it, most of the times when people get the funny roles
is because they've got this bigger nature.
This is just how I feel like, I know if I was casting a comedy role, but then I'd lost
(47:03):
all this amount of weight, then people will be like, oh, it's not funny anymore.
But like, why is it funny?
Why am I not funny now?
I'm not changed as a person.
I think this is, I think a person to think about with this is, I watched an interview
with Rebel Wilson, and she said for years that she wanted to lose weight, but she was
(47:25):
scared that if she did, she wouldn't be in for the roles that she loves to play.
And I just sat there and thought, oh my, that is awful that you think of that.
But it's all like, I feel like for ages, and I said, it definitely is changing, not as
much as I would like, it needs to, because I had so many people as well, had so many
messages and people coming up to me at stage door and saying like, we are so happy that
(47:51):
they've, and I always thank Toby and Lucy for this, because it's like little people,
little people, that sounds really weird, like young people would come up to me and be like,
you have made me want to go back into it, like you, and I'm like, do it, but I'm telling
you now, it's not easy, it's so not easy, and there's so many times where I am quite
(48:12):
lucky in the sense of, I've got quite a thick skin, even though my mum wouldn't say so,
because I'm like, but I feel like, for the things that I put myself into, I feel like
I've got a thick skin.
Oh, completely, we have to.
Yeah.
And it's like, if I was, there is sometimes when I go into auditions and I think, I'm
the biggest person in this room by far, there's no way, there's no way they're going to pick
(48:34):
me, because from, if you looked at me, I bet half the time they think she's not going to
be able to get through an eight minute number, but then I do 'Disco Ball', I mean, it was hard,
but that is just something that I feel like at the minute I would want more of.
I can totally agree, I mean, I am also a larger person, and I think it's really important
(48:54):
that we have those roles, and some of those roles that are written specifically for large
people or for trans people or for queer people, whatever it might be, but also that some of
these roles that we're talking about, that they are also available, I mean, I think that
the Regents Park open air theatre production of Legally Blonde, that you mentioned, I mean,
if people want to spin back to series one of this, I interviewed people from that show,
(49:16):
Jo was one of them, actually, Jo Foster was one of them, and how important that was.
And how important that was also for, you know, for its trans representation.
And so hopefully, there is going to be space for those, those, those ways of casting and
those productions, but I think we have to work quite hard to keep on pushing for those
(49:38):
and anyone listening to this as well, you know, keep pushing for those things at whatever
level you work at.
I think that's really important.
And keep encouraging those people, those teachers, who you're working with to consider things
out of the box as well.
Yeah.
It's been so lovely to talk to you both.
Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
And yeah, thank you very much for listening at home, and hopefully we'll see you soon.
(50:03):
Thanks very much, everyone.
Bye.
Thank you.
Bye.
Thank you for listening to represent the queer musical theatre podcast.
The research for this series is funded by the British Academy early career researchers
network seed fund, and supported by Sheffield Hallam University.
The episodes were recorded at the Content is Queen podcast studios at the Makerversity
(50:23):
at Somerset House.
For more information, go to contentisqueen.org.
Next time, we continue with why am I so single as we are joined by Owen McHugh, superstar
swing who is currently appearing in Brigadoon at the Regents Park Open Air Theatre.
See you then.
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