July 29, 2025 • 52 mins
Welcome to Represent, the queer musical theatre podcast. My name is Dr James Lovelock, and I’m an academic and a huge musical theatre fan exploring the representation of all things queer in the musical theatre industry.
My guest today is the extraordinary actor and writer Lauryn Redding. Lauryn appeared as Nikki in the gorgeous West End musical Standing At The Sky’s Edge, and was the first writer and performer to open a show at the Royal Exchange Theatre in Manchester after the pandemic with the wonderfully titled Bloody Elle. We discuss Lauryn’s current project Jack, based on the diaries of Anne Lister, and recent television role as Mel in Smoggie Queens, as well as exploring our hopes for female queer representation in musical theatre in the future.
Links
Lauryn Redding - Instagram Tiktok
Dr James Lovelock - Instagram
Represent the queer musical theatre podcast - Instagram
Lauryn performs 'Open Up Your Door' from Standing at the Sky's Edge
Standing at the Sky's Edge album and script
Bloody Elle album, script and 2021 trailer
Smoggie Queens on BBC iPlayer
Signal Musicals YouTube channel
I Kissed A Girl on BBC iPlayer
The Ministry of Lesbian Affairs script and trailer
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You're listening to Represent, the queer musical theatre podcast.
(00:05):
My name is Dr James Lovelock and I'm an academic and a huge musical theatre fan, exploring
the representation of all things queer in the musical theatre industry.
My guest today is the extraordinary actor and writer Lauren Redding.
Lauren appeared as Nikki in the gorgeous West End musical Standing at the Sky's Edge, and
was the first writer and performer to open a show at the Royal Exchange Theatre in Manchester
(00:28):
after the pandemic, with the wonderfully titled Bloody Elle.
We discuss Lauren's current project Jack, based on the diaries of Anne Lister, and recent
television role as Mel in Smoggy Queens, as well as exploring our hopes for female queer
representation in musical theatre in the future.
As always, you can follow us on your favourite podcast platform, and don't forget to share
(00:50):
this episode on social media.
Let's get started.
Hello, my name is Lauryn Redding, I'm an actor, writer, composer, musician.
My pronouns are she/they, and I'm very happy to be here.
And I'm very happy you're here too, how exciting.
Yes, so we've been talking over this series a lot about queer musical theatre, or musical
(01:11):
theatre with queer characters in, thinking about how we can promote the musicals that
already exist, and thinking about some of the new stuff that's being written, and also
thinking about what difference it makes when we're allowed to tell our own stories.
And so there's lots of things there that we can work with.
There is.
So where should we start?
Let's start with Standing at the Sky's Edge, because that's something that we've
(01:33):
been talking about a couple of times during this series already.
Yeah.
And that's the first thing I saw you in as well.
So there we go.
Beautiful.
Yeah.
So can you tell us a bit about how you got involved in that and the character that you
played and that kind of thing?
Yeah, of course.
I mean, Standing at the Sky's Edge is, so I saw it at the National.
I know Chris really well, the writer, and I knew a few people in it.
(01:57):
And there was so much noise about it when it was at the National.
And I was like, I need to see it.
And obviously, it's about Sheffield, and it's about a block of social housing.
And it's a musical.
It's like, right, this is right up my street.
So I went to see it.
And it's, I think it's the first time I've ever seen something, not knowing that I would
ever be, I didn't know I'd ever be in it.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah.
(02:17):
So I went to see it completely, just because I wanted to see it and loved it, thought it
was great, was really happy that there was a lesbian storyline in there.
And then when the audition came through, I was very excited.
(02:38):
There's very rarely that I go to see a musical and feel really connected to a storyline.
And I mean, I feel connected to a lot of things that I see, but it was such a visceral connection
to that storyline and... not that I've ever turned up at someone's door and just like,
started singing, but to be part of, you know, a musical based in the north of England, a
(03:06):
lesbian storyline where it's not even mentioned, it's just they are together, or not, should
they, shouldn't they?
Answer on the back of a postcard.
Yeah, that's a very difficult question.
It is.
I get told a lot by different people how they feel about it.
But I just remember thinking, God, I'd love to get my hands on that because it is such
a nuanced, lesbian relationships can be so nuanced and having lived as a lesbian my whole
(03:34):
adult life and experienced a lot of things, I was, I was like, God, I could really, you
know, I'd really love to get this when I got the audition.
And, and then I got it.
I was in Tesco, I was buying a butternut squash, and I got a call from my agent, and I cried
in the Tesco in Soho.
Yeah.
So every time I pass it, I'm like, oh, the butternut squash.
(03:56):
And so the journey began, really.
I was really fortunate to work with Laura Pitt-Pulford, who was playing Poppy.
We were both new to this cast for the West End, and we both felt a real affinity to the
individual characters, but also, and we spoke quite openly, and I spoke quite openly to
(04:17):
Laura about how I felt about the lack of female representation, female queer representation
on stage.
And almost like I had a bit of a responsibility, sitting in the seat I was in, because there's
so few seats, and to that part and to that storyline.
So we had a very short amount of time to yeah, I think we had three and a half weeks to get
(04:38):
the show back on its feet, which is short, and there was a lot of us that were new, but
we did it, and it's a much bigger space.
But it was amazing, you know, Rob Hastie can steer a ship like no other, and Chris's book
is, and the music, you know, everything about it, I was like, it's, you know, the stars
(04:59):
align sometimes, don't they, with projects, and that show's definitely one.
Playing Nikki was great.
I mean, she's a complex person.
And that's what I love about my job is that anything kind of grey makes me interested
in the sense of, I don't think the world is black and white, you know, I don't think things
(05:21):
are one thing or another, there's a, they're in this middle kind of melee, and Nikki and
Poppy's relationship is very that, and yeah, it was just a joy to, to perform that show
every night to be on stage in a lesbian relationship.
And like I said before, never, it's never mentioned, it's never, it's just there together
(05:46):
as the other couples are throughout the time zones, but also we end and we have a big snog
and pretty much every night we got a round of applause.
And I think, you know, to have that and to be part of that, and that celebration
of female queer love is an honour of my career, really.
(06:09):
It was a beautiful show and that was the thing that really drew me to it as well, is that
relationship right at the centre of it, and the character of Nikki as well, and the way,
the impact you have, just that moment that you, the energy that you bring when you come
on for the first time, and the song that is 'Open Up Your Door,' isn't it?
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I was like a greyhound in the kind of blocks waiting, because Nikki doesn't come
(06:32):
on for a while.
I think I had about 35 minutes before, right, I did some BVs at the beginning and then I
go back to my dressing room for a bit and be like, and I was just, you know, waiting
and then she, I mean, she does get, in my opinion, one of the best entrances in musical
theatre.
It's just like, everyone walks across the stage and then spotlight, microphone, let's
(06:53):
go, banging song.
So it's a gift as an actor to be given that, but also I just wanted to, there's people
like Nikki in the world that are, you know, Poppy wants to move away, wants to get away,
but there's something about her that keeps her there and I think in my brain she had
to be so charismatic and a bit of a clown and a lovable rogue, so finding that was really
(07:18):
fun and getting to, you know, getting to work with, like I say, Laura, who's Poppy was just
gorgeous, yeah, it was joyful, yeah.
And it's lovely to have those relationships where you can put so much nuance in it as
well because the part has been written so well and in such depth and I find it amazing
(07:40):
with Standing at the Sky's Edge that that's not the only story as well, that you've got
three separate, you know, strands going on all at the same time, all beautifully written,
all got so much depth and these songs as well, just amazing music.
I just miss it, I mean, I wish I could watch it again, like, I wish I could, you know,
not necessarily, like, I just think musicals are so precious when they work and Standing
(08:07):
at the Sky's Edge really works and I hope it has another life.
Me too, and one of the things that I guess worries me slightly is that there's been a
bit of a trend recently of musicals that go to the West End that have a queer protagonist
only lasting for quite a short run and it's, to me, it's a real shame that Standing at
(08:29):
the Sky's Edge is not still at that theatre, in the same way recently we've had with Why
Am I So Single? and, you know, there's, Everybody's Talking About Jamie did okay but that's a
very specific type of queer character that I think society is very comfortable with and
actually the lovely thing about Standing at the Sky's Edge is that there's all sorts of
queer characters in the background as well.
(08:51):
Yeah, not just, and I mean, I guess there's so many, like you say, it's such a shame about
Why Am I So Single but with Sky's Edge I think because, like I say, it's never really mentioned,
it's just they are in a relationship, you know, you've got the best friend Marcus who's
also gay, you know, there's smatterings throughout the show, it doesn't feel like a queer show,
(09:18):
it's just life and that's what the, you know, the kind of fabric of life is, we're all in
there somewhere.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah, I was going to kind of move on to some of your other work and particularly the musical
that you were working on, I guess, well you're still working on but we've been working on
the last few years which is Bloody Elle.
(09:39):
Yes.
And I wanted to talk to you more about that as another example, a different example
of a queer character, a lesbian character being right at the forefront of a story.
So tell us a bit about that.
Wow, well, I mean, I wrote Bloody Elle in lockdown and I'd always wanted to write something that
came from my experience of coming out in the working class north and I started as a singer-songwriter
(10:05):
so I used to gig a lot and play guitar and sing and I always wanted to make a piece of
theatre that felt like a gig, like it starts with a song and then, you know, the chat between
songs that artists do and then all of a sudden it becomes another beast entirely and we have,
we're in the theatre.
(10:25):
I wrote it because I just had never seen it and I feel still progressively actually frustrated
by the lack of female identifying queer narratives on stage, especially in leading roles, you
know, not just thrown in for, you know, a bit of, you know, like fetishised or a phase
(10:46):
or spicing up a storyline, like a real, like we actually exist and we deserve to have our
stories told and I think with Bloody Elle it really came from, I never expected it to do
what it did but it came from like quite a cathartic place for me to write this story
and it is, it's based on my experiences of coming out and it's using a lot of songs,
(11:13):
there's 14 songs in it that I've written, some of them I wrote when I was like 17, which
was kind of nuts as I was writing it, I was like, oh I've written, I know, oh I've written
this song 10 years, like how many years ago, so, but it started as many things did in lockdown,
kind of on Zoom, kind of pitching it out there and seeing if anybody, you know, was bothered
(11:36):
and it turns out there were, so we reopened the Royal Exchange which, after COVID, which
was like, still to this day I can't believe I can say that, like, I mean, you know, I'd
never even managed to get an audition at the Royal Exchange and then after COVID I was
reopening it with my one-person show and I wanted to just put on stage the, I didn't,
(12:01):
again, it's not similar to Sky's Edge but I guess it kind of is in the sense that it's
not, there's no rainbows on the poster, it's not plastered that it's this lesbian musical,
what it is, it's a love story set to gig music and theatre and it just happens to be about
two female identifying people and I think one of the things I'm most proud of is that
(12:26):
as I, you know, I kind of wrote it thinking, oh this would be great for the little queerbies
out there who want to, like, see themselves represented, which is what I would have wanted
to see at that age, but also, like, a lot of people who, a lot of parents thanked me
and saying, God, I kind of understand my child a bit better now and, you know, some people
(12:46):
that are predominantly living in heteronormative relationships were like, God, I've never thought
of it like that. People, we took it to the Fringe and that's kind of where, it was an
amazing experience. I think the Edinburgh Fringe, it can be a difficult place and I
was lucky enough to have a really, really fantastic experience up there and the show
(13:09):
did really well. We were at the Traverse and they supported the show so much and from there
we took it into Soho with the Trav, but we sold out, we, like, won awards, we were, like,
adding shows and a lot of the audience that come to the Traverse at the Fringe, they come
to see everything at the Traverse. So, there was people that probably wouldn't, I know,
(13:34):
I don't want to brushstroke anyone, but they were seeing something that maybe they wouldn't
have seen, you know, and were like, oh God, I've never thought of it like that or really
moved by it and that's the thing I'm probably most proud of, is that it's for everyone.
As is Sky's Edge, you know, the applause at the end of that, you know, the snog, is everyone's
(14:00):
relation, everyone has a version of that in their head, whether it's that relationship
or whatever. But yeah, Bloody Elle, hopefully, I am doing my best and it looks like it might
be happening again next year.
If you're interested in LGBTQ+ representation in musical theatre, check out our website
(14:24):
www.queermusicals.com for lots more information about musicals with LGBTQ+ characters.
I love what you were saying there about trying to get things that anyone can relate to, but
at the same time also people noticing what's different or what can be different from the
(14:48):
experience of as a queer person.
Absolutely, yeah.
I don't know whether it's something to do with, I've been thinking a lot about non-binary
thinking recently. It's only been recently that I've kind of thought that that might
be where I fit, but I love the idea particularly about when you think it's not just, it's either
this or it's that, actually a piece of art can do two quite opposite things at the same
(15:09):
time.
Yeah, absolutely.
So it's great to have work like Standing at the Sky's Edge and Bloody Elle. And there
are other musicals out there that have lesbian protagonists there. There's not many of them,
but they, you know, I was thinking about Bad Girls, which was quite, you know, some time
ago. And, but yeah, it's one of those, it always has struck me as being very strange
(15:33):
that the female queer experience is so little represented when it's such a, it's such an
amazing, I mean, obviously not, I'm not talking lived experience here, but there's such amazing
differences and things that people gain from the different way that people have to navigate
(15:54):
the world, I suppose.
Yeah, absolutely. I think when I think about the, when I was younger and I was kind of
realising that potentially, I'd never met a lesbian, I didn't know what one was, but
I knew something was a bit awry. And I remember watching like Queer as Folk on like, volume
two.
Yes. Oh, we've all done that.
Yeah, haven't we? And I was like, God, I really relate to this and I can't really work out
(16:17):
why. And even though it was the male experience predominantly, it was, there was still a,
still a, something that I was piecing together. And I still feel there's such a lack of female
queer representation. It's frustrating. I feel like the, it's, it's funny, isn't it?
(16:38):
Because I think in a marginalised group of the queer community, actually, gay relationships
and lesbian relationships are so opposite in many ways.
Yes, I think so.
And I love supporting queer work, but so much of it is, is through the
male gaze.
Yes.
And I think there's so much more room for lesbian narratives, for non-binary narratives,
(17:01):
for trans narratives. And I saw Otherland at the Almeida, Chris's show, and just to
be able to sit in a space and witness and watch amazing work about something that is
so specific, but so relatable. And so, you know, I felt richer as a human for seeing
(17:27):
that show.
Yes.
And I felt like, I feel like the world needs that empathy and needs, that's what theatre,
that's what theatre has the magic wand of doing. I don't want to go and, I don't just
want to see lesbian shows either, but you know, I want to see, I want to see a mixed
tapestry.
Yeah.
And there is obviously space for everything, but I just wish there was a bit more room
(17:50):
for the female non-binary storylines.
Yeah, I agree. I think, I mean, I think it's, there's so many stories that are untold in
musical theatre at the moment, and it does feel like we get stuck with the same story
just repackaged over and over.
Yeah. And I wonder if that's something to do with, you know, in society, like you say
(18:14):
with Everybody's Talking About Jamie, I mean, what an amazing musical, firstly, and based
on a documentary that was about, you know, a young, I think, I think they were from the
North East somewhere, weren't they? Durham, yeah. Because I remember they were probably
like that, weren't they? They weren't like Sheffield. But again, there's an obvious,
(18:36):
I remember watching that at the time and it was a, whereas now, you know, it feels like
the world has moved on, but, and people are a bit more understanding and those shows
feel like, oh, there's a, there's a, there's a young person in drag, a drag queen.
And because of RuPaul and all this thing, it's quite palatable for people to watch that.
Whereas I think, you know, some people, when they imagine a lesbian still imagine something
(19:02):
very, you know, archaic potentially, like, I still have to work out what is me and what
is what I had to adopt 20 years ago to exist in a community where because I had long hair,
people wouldn't believe I was gay. Like, it's crazy. Whereas now, you know, my partner,
she's extremely femme and we've been in bars together and people have gone, are you gay
(19:26):
to her? And she's like, yeah, I am. Like, that's my partner, you know, but it is funny
how it's like, if it's not understood by the binary, then it can be alienating. And actually
that, in my opinion, it's the opposite. I think we need to understand the nuance of
the queer experience, not just the obvious.
And that's that comes through, I guess, telling different stories and stories with different
(19:51):
characters. I mean, I'm even thinking about Smoggie Queens, which is something that I watched
recently and I love and, you know, love your character in that. But even seeing those two,
well, it's kind of, it's sort of a love triangle, isn't it? In the very first series, but those
characters, there's something really lovely about and slightly unexpected, I guess, from
(20:12):
the sorts of stereotypes that we see of queer women.
Yeah. Yeah, it's been, I mean, Smoggie is such a joyful, if you haven't seen it, listeners,
please do. It's BBC Three. Phil Dunning has just written, I mean, it's hilarious and it's
camp and it's silly. It's about a load of drag queens and a queer, your chosen family
in the Northeast. But again, when I got the audition, it's so funny, I've spent my whole
(20:36):
life playing straight. And then the last three years I'm like, right, lesbian part,
let's go. And which I'm here for, by the way. But, you know, it's a beautiful thing to be
on a set. And, you know, there's a lot, there's a real mix of humans on that job. And Phil
is a gay Northeast lad and has written this chosen family, the nuance of the baby gay
(21:02):
and then the mum drag queen. But for the storyline of my part, Mel, there's Sal, who is with
a girl who's horrible, played by the amazing Charlotte Riley, who's just, I mean, the first
time I met her, she had a massive penis drawn on her face because of this. I mean, if you've
(21:25):
seen it, you'll know why I was like, all right, mate, that's how we first met. But yeah, it's
just great to see lesbian storylines on TV, on the BBC that aren't, you know, that are
real, that feel like relatable as, as relatable as Smoggie Queens can be. I think it really
is though. I think it's got the magic touch. Yeah. Yeah. And again, it's just one of those
(21:48):
themes, which is the thing that's different, I think, about the queer experience. I mean,
I know there are straight people who have chosen families as well, but I feel like for
most of us that are queer, that's something that we end up trying to find. Yeah. And it's
to have that sort of story. And again, there's not loads of stuff in theatre or certainly
not in musical theatre that have that story. I mean, I guess Rent to some extent is a chosen
(22:11):
family story, but quite dated in the way that it represents, you know, particularly the
lesbian and bisexual female characters in that. Yeah. But it just makes me think there
were so many more stories that could be written and could be, you know, on the stage. So I'm
excited to see what other things sort of come out as well. Yeah, me too.
(22:34):
If you want to follow us on social media, you can use queer.musicals on Instagram
or Facebook. Or you can follow me @drjameslovelock on Instagram.
Are you working on anything at the moment that you might be able to talk about?
(22:57):
Yes, I am. And I am in the process. And it's been something that I've wanted to do for
a while, but it's just been time like writing is amazing. And, you know, Bloody Elle kind
of came during lockdown when nothing else was happening. And I just had the time to
write it. Trying to find that time in normal life is really hard. But I am back on it.
(23:22):
I'm writing a musical called Jack, which is based on the life of Ann Lister, Gentleman
Jack, who is the kind of original Yorkshire, lesbian Lothario. And she, if you don't know
who she is, she lived in Shibden Hall in Halifax. She was a woman like, like, you know, there
(23:42):
was no one else really like her at the time. She owned property, which women just didn't
do. She was a business, she had a business. And also she was a lesbian. She was sleeping
with a lot of women in Halifax and Yorkshire and probably across the world. But she wrote
a diary and she wrote it all in code. It's a mixture of Greek and Zodiac signs and she
(24:04):
hid it in her walls. And then when she died, like 50 years later, her diaries were found
and the code was cracked. Wow. And it turned out that there was a lot going on. So, you
know, my, like we were saying, there's not a huge amount of, you know, female, queer
(24:25):
relationships portrayed in musical theatre. You may be lucky to get one a decade, really
mainstream kind of lead role. But in I'm writing five, there's five lesbian relationships in
my new musical. Excellent. And we're and it's not... And all those five women, non-binary
people are very different. Yeah. And it's my passion project at the moment to to tell
(24:50):
the story of Anne Lister through the five pivotal women of her past and how different
their experience can be was with Anne, but also how different they are as humans. And
yeah, that must be really interesting going from the diaries, which are Anne's perspective
(25:11):
and then trying to work backwards from the characters to kind of work out how they how
their perspectives might be different. Yeah. I mean, my brain is on fire, but it's it's
really fun. I've been I'm a member of MMD, the Mercury Musical Development. And I did
a writer's week last week with them. And I wanted to set aside that week just to really
(25:35):
get my head back in it, because I find it's either I either am so in it that I dream about
it and, you know, like I kind of have to be there. And and it's like I feel passionately
about it. So those two kind of ingredients, I hope, will lead to a really exciting show.
But the music I'm writing the music at the moment and but getting into the head of five
(25:59):
different women on their one relation and their relationship with one person is it's
a really fascinating thing. And I think we all I mean, I personally I certainly draw
on my experiences. I mean, I came out when I was like, 15, 16. And I'm now. And so it's
been a while. And I am my experiences over those years have changed a lot. You know,
(26:25):
there was a there was now, you know, back then there was a lot of shame. There was a
lot of hiding. There was a lot of secrets. There was a lot of I was with people that
weren't happy with, you know, their sexuality couldn't felt I couldn't live their truth.
And that's a really sad, yeah, rubbish thing. And I, you know, that still happens today.
(26:46):
And again, I think that leads back to there being a lack of representation. I feel if
there's more and there's a more wider tapestry of it, there's, you know, that gives people
an outlet to understand what's going on. Yeah, I totally agree. I went and saw this wonderful
musical yesterday called the Ministry of Lesbian Affairs, which is currently on at the Kiln
(27:10):
theatre and was at the Soho theatre, I think, a couple of years ago. Yeah. And I learned
so much from that just from, you know, sitting in in that space with a whole load of different
characters, all of whom are lesbian or bisexual or trans, or whatever it might be an all women.
And I learned so many things that I wouldn't have known because I've never been in that
(27:32):
situation. And I was such a lovely story as well, you know, setting a choir and yeah,
so much fun. Perfect. Yeah, I need to go on my list. Yeah, wait to see it. And I'm excited
for that very reason to see you know, how, how and what and who those women are. Yeah.
But it's, it's, it's about that, isn't it? It's about being able to experience the differences.
(27:59):
It's not the obvious. And that it's a bit like it was about the grey, the middle ground,
like I'm here for that. I find it really fascinating that I've got some, you know, amazing male
gay friends that have no idea about, you know, the cat, when I Kissed A Girl came out last
year, you know, this golden retriever and black cat conversation was like, Oh my god.
(28:21):
And I was like, Yeah, where have you been? You know? And I yeah, and I think whereas,
you know, we all know what a twink and a bear is and an otter and all those things, because
I guess it's more out there. Yes. Whereas, we aren't a secret. Lesbian aren't a secret
code unless... well Anne Lister is. But you know, there is that we, you know, we exist. We're not,
(28:46):
you know, and I feel like, I really want and wish that we, that people will open doors
and allow that space and that platform for the for those stories, because they are as
important as all the others. Yeah. And actually, the musical that you're working on at the
moment and having, well, I guess six female characters there with Anne Lister as well. Each
(29:09):
of them different, each of them having different backgrounds, because, you know, it's the same
as I used to say, you know, going back 10 or 20 years when we're talking about gay characters
in musical theatre, and the only one was the one that would dance on to a camp number then
dance off again. Sometimes we're like that. But we're not, you know, not all gay
men. I feel like there's been a lot more nuance around that more recently, even in terms of,
(29:34):
you know, looking across intersections with race or with social class. Yeah. And now it's
time for that to happen for queer women as well and preach and non binary people. And
so I'm very, I'm very excited to see how you kind of find those five different characters.
And it's so exciting. I mean, it's been a while since I've written anything. But, you
know, that that moment where you go, Oh, what musical language does this character have?
(29:57):
What music does this person listen to? Or? Yeah, of course, that's been difficult in
the 1700s. They didn't have Walkmans. Walkmans? What am I, in the 1980s? Minidisc player? Yes,
they didn't have record players in those days. No, yeah, not quite. No. I mean, I think that's,
I mean, for that, for that, for the play, I'm bringing a lot of it to now. And I think
(30:21):
that that's instead of it going back in time, instead of it going forward in time
and going back in time. And I am... one of the things I was really fascinated about when
I started working on it. And it's something that I felt throughout my experiences, while
writing and being part of queer work in a bit on a bigger platform is that the experiences
(30:43):
of me as a 30 something year old, and the experiences of somebody in their 50s, 60s,
who's come to see the show. A lot of people have said to me, God, I thought it would have
been better. Yes. By the time you know, after Bloody Elle, I had a big group of women from
Hebden Bridge come and see the show. And it was amazing. And then and they were great.
(31:06):
They were raucous as anything. It was great. But afterwards, I was chatting to them a bit
and they were like, oh, they told me about when they were younger, there was a one lesbian
place in Leeds and it was at the top floor of a building and they had to like run upstairs
because people would like shout at them and like, and, and they were telling me this and
(31:26):
then having seen the show, and if anyone has seen the show, or maybe you'll see it next
year. And they were like, God, I can't believe it. Your experiences were, and I didn't
have to run upstairs in Leeds. I mean, you know, but but there were there was similarities.
And even when I'm reading about the 1800s, and, you know, Anne Lister and and their affairs,
(31:52):
there's a there's a there's a secrecy, there's a shame, there's a, there's a nuance. And
I feel, you know, I feel excited about that, in that I can crack that open a bit and we
can have the conversation about like, why? Why is this still? Why is there a thread of
similarity from 1840 to 2025? Yes. And how do how do we how do we grow from that? How
(32:19):
do we build? How do we how do we smash that? Yeah, I think there's a big thing to do with
location there as well. It's funny, you mentioned Hebden Bridge, I have a PhD student at the
moment, whose writing a musical with non binary characters in that set in Hebden Bridge, right?
They come from Middlesbrough. Yeah, and, and it's really interesting. And again, the same
(32:39):
thing when I'm looking at their work and thinking, oh, my goodness, is this still how is this
still a thing for young people? You know, is it still as difficult almost as it was,
even though you've got all of these, you know, apps and what have you, which we didn't have
in my day? No, no, just about had a telephone. But yeah, just landline, Morse code in the
(33:03):
olden days. But I think that's really, there was there's something about that when I'm
working with students where I sometimes assume that more progress has been made than it has
and things have changed a bit. But also, yeah, there's a lot that's changed. I mean, there
but, and that's not for we are standing I always think we're standing on the shoulders
(33:23):
of giants. Okay, so I think I now I want to I've always lived an open, openly queer life
pretty much. And it wasn't always easy. But that was, that was the thing that I needed
to do, because I didn't know any other way of doing it. For a lot of people, it's not
that easy. And it makes me sad that those those, those situations still exist. I think
(33:49):
they will always exist. And but what we can do to make it easier, or at least have an
outlet is provide our and space for people to to be their authentic selves and see their
authentic selves. I mean, Hebden Bridge is one of my favorite places. I love it. And
(34:09):
that's so cliche. And I do, I love it so much. And I've got a few friends there. And, and,
you know, it's the the lesbian capital of Europe. Apparently, I don't know about that.
I mean, it probably is. But again, it's it. I find it as a place is it's a beautiful,
(34:32):
you know, Yorkshire village. The energy is very free. And anything goes. And I just wish
the world was a bit more Hebden Bridge. Yes. And it's funny when you're talking about that,
(35:07):
you know, that there are places that you go through. I can remember this even even back
in the 1980s. In the 1990s, when I was growing up, there are places that you go through,
you don't know what they are, what it is about. But there's something about them that kind
of calls you. Yeah. And, and, yeah, I mean, the theater was always a little bit like that,
I suppose for me. But, yeah, the fact that they're actually specific locations and places
(35:31):
where you, you know, where it just seems a little bit easier to be yourself, you know,
yeah. And that's, I guess, what the like these shows, queer shows, give people that space,
you know, gay queer spaces give you that space, you know, where you go in and you can breathe
out a bit. And that's what, you know, I think that's what Sky's Edge certainly did for a
(35:52):
lot of people in that storyline, and especially being such a mainstream commercial musical.
That's the difference for me. I think with Bloody Elle, I've had to kind of fight quite hard
to make that happen. And I've had amazing supporters and angels on the way who without
I would, it wouldn't be anywhere. And I'm forever grateful for that. And, and there's
(36:15):
a real team of us that have, you know, I've written it and I'm and it's a one person show,
I'm doing it, but there's a real village that has been built to make that show happen. But
I think it's still difficult. It's still been difficult. The journey's still been, I felt
like I've had to bang on doors with a really great show that matters that, that has really
(36:40):
helped people. And I mean, I, when I did it at the Exchange, it was still socially distanced.
Remember those days? It was still masks. It was such a, I mean, I always, it's quite direct
address, the show. And I kind of was looking in people's eyes and they had masks. It was
just such a straight, but it was, it was amazing. But I got a lot of letters, I got a lot
(37:02):
of tweets, you know, back in the day with Twitter, I got a lot of messages
on social media from people like parents, young people. I got a letter from a man in
his eighties who had, you know, said that the show had been the rainbow that he needed.
And I mean, my God, I always said if I could help one person with that show, then my job
(37:26):
is done. And I think it, I know that I know that it's helped more than it's helped me.
I mean, every time I do it, I'm in a different place in my life as well. And certain bits
resonate in a different way. And that's the beauty of what we do and why we tell stories.
Absolutely. Absolutely. And also there's a thing I think with queer work, when you're
(37:47):
taking it to theatres and producers where they're like, Oh, I don't think there's enough
lesbians in this area. And you think, well, A, yes, there is. And B, it's not just for
people who are lesbians, you know, and it's, there seems to be this thing and it's very
specifically with queer musicals, I think specifically now more to do with the
(38:07):
LBTQ part of the, you know, LGBTQ community. And it's, it's so unfair that that seems to
be the thing. I was just talking on another podcast episode about the representation of
disability as well. And you know, how it's not just about making work. Yes, it is about
making work so that we can see ourselves, but it's so that others can see us as well.
(38:28):
Because that that's the thing that I'm interested in now is trying to find ways to find these
musicals first of all, that are in development. And I've been encouraging a lot of the actors
who've been on these podcasts to talk about things they've been workshopping. Yeah, we're
quite often quite secretive about things. Oh, it's not ready yet. Shh, don't talk about
it. But actually, it's really important that we we kind of get the word out of it. So people
(38:49):
know what to follow. Yeah. And then how do we take it? So it might be at the moment that
it's a load of songs and a bit of script. And you know, how does it get from there to
be, you know, to what stages does it need to go through to make it something that people
can experience in its, I say final, it never is, is it? But yeah, you know, in in
a version? Yeah. And you know, and what can we do? What can other queer people do? What
(39:13):
can you know, the community do to support that work? And that really excellent
work that we want to see, how can we help to get it from where it starts to where it ends,
I suppose. Yeah. And it does take a village. It really does. I mean, it's great. Because
it's hard, isn't it? I mean, you want things to be perfect, not perfect, but you want things
to be ready. And yeah, but I think it's really important to let people know that these things
(39:38):
are coming. Yeah, because I mean, I also to give myself a deadline, I've got right. But
yeah, I it's such a long journey, especially writing musicals. I mean, there's some mad
statistic that it's at least six or seven years. And I completely believe that with
Bloody Elle, it kind of like shot out and I still don't really know how I did it. But
(40:05):
with this with this show that I'm the new show that I'm writing, because it's
based on on Anne Lister, and the women that she wrote about. And it's gonna
be hopefully not too long. And, and I've got really great people already working on it.
(40:28):
And that are really excited and are equally as ambitious and fueled by wanting to get
the female queer experience out more. So I feel like once it's ready, or whatever ready
means what's ready mean, but I just want to get a load of humans in a room and just see
if it's any good. And you know, sing it through and talk it through and have some
(40:51):
other people's brains. And yeah, that's the kind of, I guess, the joy of that sort of
workshopping process. And I'm at the moment I'm thinking about what are the most helpful
things that you can give people who are writing musicals, you know, is it most helpful to
put on a concert where little bits and pieces come from different musicals, so that is showcasing
(41:13):
songs? Or actually, is that not the most helpful way to kind of build up a following for a
show? You know, are there other options? Are there other things you can do? Do we want
to be seeing little bits of shows in, you know, together? It's an interesting one from
I guess, from a producing point of view, and from a point of view of somebody that teaches
students that are always looking for new work to develop. And, you know, thinking about
(41:36):
what ways can we support the new work that's going on, that's not going to be destructive
to it. Yeah, that people are willing to like get up and do. I mean, Adam Lenson and Signal,
I mean, there hasn't been one for a while, but they are great nights, because
you can do a song. You don't have to have the play, but you can do a song. And I did
(41:59):
it with a song from Jack, the last one that Adam did. And it was really great because
I've still to this, I did Beam the other week, and I was singing for one of the shows. And
a few people came up to me and were like, what's going on with Jack? And I was like,
you know, we listen, you know, people listen, and people care. And so that was a real nice
(42:26):
thing to have, because you're like, okay, no, it hasn't just disappeared, it's still
there. And I think with writing, because I am, I'm an actor, and I'm a writer. So I spend
a lot of my life either writing words or speaking other people's, or sometimes writing and speaking
my own. But writing is a lot. It's amazing. I love it. It's such a, it's like being given
(42:54):
wings, you know, you can do anything. But there's a cost, you know, like,
and I think when I'm writing about something that's, you know, Bloody Elle, for example,
it's so close to me, so close to my experience. And there's people in those in that play that
in my head are somebody, you know, and I'm having to dig deep, and I'm having to, you
(43:18):
know, and, and it's a lot. And so writing and writing with integrity and writing with
passion can sometimes take it out of you. And that's why it takes time. But also, there's
deadlines. Yeah. And, you know, there's, there's bursaries, if you're lucky enough to get them,
if there's people tapping the watch. So it's getting them, it's getting the balance
(43:41):
between writing the thing you want to write, and not being too precious and getting
something out there, trying it out, and then get... and I love, I mean, I love being an actor
in workshops. And, and I've written another play that was that I got the Peggy Ramsey
Channel Four bursary through the Royal Exchange, and it's based on a lecture. It's about three
(44:03):
sisters in the caravan in Yorkshire. And in that there's a queer relationship. It's not,
it's not the what the play is about. There just happens to be two women. But with that,
we had a workshop at the Royal Exchange. And I was I was the my director, Bryony Shanahan,
who's an amazing director. And she was like, do you want to read it? Because I've kind
of written one of the parts for me and I was like, No, I just want to be in this week in
(44:27):
this room as a writer and just hear it. Yeah. And, and that was amazing. Because then what
I had was six, seven women, non binary people's brains on this script that had been in my
head for like a year and a half. And they had thoughts about the characters because
they're only living that character, whereas I'm living seven people. Yeah. So it's such
(44:48):
a joy to get other people's brains and other people's experiences and other people's thoughts
on on the work that we create. But essentially, you have to make the thing you want to make.
And I always write what it is I'm trying to do. Like and put it above my laptop. Yeah.
So that I remember why I'm writing it. And what you know what I want the audience to
(45:09):
feel when they leave. Because because that's that's that's the thing isn't it? If you don't
do that, then yeah. Yeah. Sometimes grey's good and sometimes grey isn't good. Absolutely.
The one thing that I will say is that I've really felt I graduated in 2009 and have worked
(45:33):
on lots of amazing shows. Musicals, plays, telly. I was lucky enough to play Emily
in the Hired Man, which was such a gorgeous. I love that show. I played Jackson in an amateur
production. Did you? It was a very gay Jackson. Jackson can be a bit gay. I like that. But
(45:53):
I, you know, I played Rita in Educating Rita. I've had some gorgeous, amazing experiences
in my career. But I do joke, but it is in the last kind of four or three or four years
that all of a sudden there's, you know, there's that the lesbian role in Sky's Edge.
(46:14):
There's a lesbian role in Smoggie Queens. I had to write it to make it because, you know,
and I think it's a great step forward. But I also, you know, people often ask me
this question and I think it's a really hard question to answer. But do you think gay people
(46:35):
should only play? You know, do you think gay characters should only be played by gay people?
And I feel that I think, you know, I don't think you have to have experienced the things
that characters experience that say, I don't think you have to be a heroin addict to play
a heroin addict. I don't know. I'm not saying that. But I certainly think for queer roles, especially
(47:00):
female non-binary roles, there's not a lot of seats at the table. And I think when there's
a lot more seats at the table, knock yourself out. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, but I
believe that when there's so few that we should be given the opportunity at least to take
(47:22):
up that space because you can't buy lived experience. You can't, you
know, you can't emulate. And I feel that there's and that doesn't mean that, you know,
like I say, I was playing straight for a lot of years and I'm an actor and that's what
(47:43):
I can do because that's what I've been trying to do. I mean, I've snogged a lot of boys
on stage, not in real life. But I do think that's something that while there's
so few seats at the table, I really I feel strongly that we should be sitting in them.
I've started asking that question in a slightly different way now, which is what do we gain
(48:06):
when queer people play these roles? Yeah. And there's so many things. And when
I talked to people about it, I mean, I've spoken to I was lucky enough to talk to Lisa
Kron for a book that I'm working on that I've been working on for the last eight years.
that eventually I'll finish writing. Deadline. Yeah. Deadline. Deadline. But Lisa Kron was
saying that there is a shorthand between people who are queer. And certainly and, you know,
(48:31):
with someone like Beth Malone working on Fun Home, they both, I spoke to both of them. They
both talked about the idea of like a lesbian shorthand. There's a certain way that you
you don't even have to talk about it then. Whereas... 100 percent. Yeah. And I was talking
to, there's various things on different podcasts about this, but the idea that you
don't have to go through all of this research about what does it mean to be gay? What does
(48:54):
it mean to be lesbian? All this sort of stuff. You can just go straight for the really interesting
stuff about the character. Unsaid. Yeah. You know, my on Bloody Elle, my director is lesbian.
My sound designer is lesbian. My designer is lesbian. My dramaturg, lesbian. Yeah. If
I miss anyone out, sorry. But like there was just there's there was a commonality of experience.
(49:18):
There was a there was a shorthand where I didn't have to explain why that was
a bit, you know, what? You know, what? Why? Why when they first had sex, was it like
so good? Because, you know, well, I've kind of got one. And yeah, there was there
was things like that, you're right. It's really important to me. You
(49:42):
know, I go back to Bloody Elle as well. We are talking about queer work, so why not?
But it was really important to me that the creative team were either queer, female, non-binary
or working class. Yeah. One of like... three out of three would be great. But when you're
(50:03):
dealing with quite specific matter, like subject matter, you just want to be able to like get
on with the work and not try, and I'm here for having conversations. And I think, you
know, an echo chamber isn't the place we should be living. We should be, you know,
having conversations and pushing people's brains and thoughts. But when it comes
(50:27):
to making work, I'm like, we've got four weeks to put this on. Yeah, I can't be teaching
you about, you know, Golden Retrievers and Black Cats. And I mean, watch I Kissed
a Girl and then we'll have a chat. But, you know, I Kissed a Girl was a great. And, you
know, there's this renaissance of Chapelle Roan, and I Kissed a Girl, a lesbian won Big Brother.
(50:50):
You know, it feels like, OK, OK, everyone's getting on board now. Yeah. But we've existed,
you know, Sappho back in the day. So it's about time, really. And as an industry and especially
musical theatre and what Standing at the Sky's Edge did and the way that me and Laura got
(51:10):
hounded at stage door in like in like a lovely, beautiful way. But people were just so grateful
to see that storyline, so grateful to like sit there and experience that for however
long it was. And that's down to Chris's amazing writing. But it's it's proof to me that there's
an audience out there. Absolutely. And it might not be as obvious as, you know, sticking
(51:32):
the obvious LGBTQ+ big rainbow flag, you know, let's go. Yeah, it might not be that
obvious and there's space for that work. But give us some time. Give us
a platform because we deserve it. There's audiences for it and it will do nothing but
good for all of us. Absolutely. That's a great place to finish. Thank you so much, Lauryn.
(51:57):
Thank you for coming on the podcast today. And thank you very much for listening at home
and we'll see you soon. Thank you. Bye.
Thank you for listening to represent the queer musical theatre podcast. The research for
this series is funded by the British Academy Early Career Researchers Network seed fund and
(52:18):
supported by Sheffield Hallam University. The episodes were recorded at the Content
is Queen podcast studios at the Makerversity at Somerset House. For more information, go
to contentisqueen.org. In next week's episode, we talked to River Medway, star of RuPaul's
Drag Race, Unfortunate - the untold story of Ursula the Sea Witch, a musical parody and
(52:40):
Here and Now about their career in drag and musical theatre. See you then.
You're listening to Represent, the queer musical theatre podcast.
(00:05):
My name is Dr James Lovelock and I'm an academic and a huge musical theatre fan, exploring
the representation of all things queer in the musical theatre industry.
My guest today is the extraordinary actor and writer Lauren Redding.
Lauren appeared as Nikki in the gorgeous West End musical Standing at the Sky's Edge, and
was the first writer and performer to open a show at the Royal Exchange Theatre in Manchester
(00:28):
after the pandemic, with the wonderfully titled Bloody Elle.
We discuss Lauren's current project Jack, based on the diaries of Anne Lister, and recent
television role as Mel in Smoggy Queens, as well as exploring our hopes for female queer
representation in musical theatre in the future.
As always, you can follow us on your favourite podcast platform, and don't forget to share
(00:50):
this episode on social media.
Let's get started.
Hello, my name is Lauryn Redding, I'm an actor, writer, composer, musician.
My pronouns are she/they, and I'm very happy to be here.
And I'm very happy you're here too, how exciting.
Yes, so we've been talking over this series a lot about queer musical theatre, or musical
(01:11):
theatre with queer characters in, thinking about how we can promote the musicals that
already exist, and thinking about some of the new stuff that's being written, and also
thinking about what difference it makes when we're allowed to tell our own stories.
And so there's lots of things there that we can work with.
There is.
So where should we start?
Let's start with Standing at the Sky's Edge, because that's something that we've
(01:33):
been talking about a couple of times during this series already.
Yeah.
And that's the first thing I saw you in as well.
So there we go.
Beautiful.
Yeah.
So can you tell us a bit about how you got involved in that and the character that you
played and that kind of thing?
Yeah, of course.
I mean, Standing at the Sky's Edge is, so I saw it at the National.
I know Chris really well, the writer, and I knew a few people in it.
(01:57):
And there was so much noise about it when it was at the National.
And I was like, I need to see it.
And obviously, it's about Sheffield, and it's about a block of social housing.
And it's a musical.
It's like, right, this is right up my street.
So I went to see it.
And it's, I think it's the first time I've ever seen something, not knowing that I would
ever be, I didn't know I'd ever be in it.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah.
(02:17):
So I went to see it completely, just because I wanted to see it and loved it, thought it
was great, was really happy that there was a lesbian storyline in there.
And then when the audition came through, I was very excited.
(02:38):
There's very rarely that I go to see a musical and feel really connected to a storyline.
And I mean, I feel connected to a lot of things that I see, but it was such a visceral connection
to that storyline and... not that I've ever turned up at someone's door and just like,
started singing, but to be part of, you know, a musical based in the north of England, a
(03:06):
lesbian storyline where it's not even mentioned, it's just they are together, or not, should
they, shouldn't they?
Answer on the back of a postcard.
Yeah, that's a very difficult question.
It is.
I get told a lot by different people how they feel about it.
But I just remember thinking, God, I'd love to get my hands on that because it is such
a nuanced, lesbian relationships can be so nuanced and having lived as a lesbian my whole
(03:34):
adult life and experienced a lot of things, I was, I was like, God, I could really, you
know, I'd really love to get this when I got the audition.
And, and then I got it.
I was in Tesco, I was buying a butternut squash, and I got a call from my agent, and I cried
in the Tesco in Soho.
Yeah.
So every time I pass it, I'm like, oh, the butternut squash.
(03:56):
And so the journey began, really.
I was really fortunate to work with Laura Pitt-Pulford, who was playing Poppy.
We were both new to this cast for the West End, and we both felt a real affinity to the
individual characters, but also, and we spoke quite openly, and I spoke quite openly to
(04:17):
Laura about how I felt about the lack of female representation, female queer representation
on stage.
And almost like I had a bit of a responsibility, sitting in the seat I was in, because there's
so few seats, and to that part and to that storyline.
So we had a very short amount of time to yeah, I think we had three and a half weeks to get
(04:38):
the show back on its feet, which is short, and there was a lot of us that were new, but
we did it, and it's a much bigger space.
But it was amazing, you know, Rob Hastie can steer a ship like no other, and Chris's book
is, and the music, you know, everything about it, I was like, it's, you know, the stars
(04:59):
align sometimes, don't they, with projects, and that show's definitely one.
Playing Nikki was great.
I mean, she's a complex person.
And that's what I love about my job is that anything kind of grey makes me interested
in the sense of, I don't think the world is black and white, you know, I don't think things
(05:21):
are one thing or another, there's a, they're in this middle kind of melee, and Nikki and
Poppy's relationship is very that, and yeah, it was just a joy to, to perform that show
every night to be on stage in a lesbian relationship.
And like I said before, never, it's never mentioned, it's never, it's just there together
(05:46):
as the other couples are throughout the time zones, but also we end and we have a big snog
and pretty much every night we got a round of applause.
And I think, you know, to have that and to be part of that, and that celebration
of female queer love is an honour of my career, really.
(06:09):
It was a beautiful show and that was the thing that really drew me to it as well, is that
relationship right at the centre of it, and the character of Nikki as well, and the way,
the impact you have, just that moment that you, the energy that you bring when you come
on for the first time, and the song that is 'Open Up Your Door,' isn't it?
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I was like a greyhound in the kind of blocks waiting, because Nikki doesn't come
(06:32):
on for a while.
I think I had about 35 minutes before, right, I did some BVs at the beginning and then I
go back to my dressing room for a bit and be like, and I was just, you know, waiting
and then she, I mean, she does get, in my opinion, one of the best entrances in musical
theatre.
It's just like, everyone walks across the stage and then spotlight, microphone, let's
(06:53):
go, banging song.
So it's a gift as an actor to be given that, but also I just wanted to, there's people
like Nikki in the world that are, you know, Poppy wants to move away, wants to get away,
but there's something about her that keeps her there and I think in my brain she had
to be so charismatic and a bit of a clown and a lovable rogue, so finding that was really
(07:18):
fun and getting to, you know, getting to work with, like I say, Laura, who's Poppy was just
gorgeous, yeah, it was joyful, yeah.
And it's lovely to have those relationships where you can put so much nuance in it as
well because the part has been written so well and in such depth and I find it amazing
(07:40):
with Standing at the Sky's Edge that that's not the only story as well, that you've got
three separate, you know, strands going on all at the same time, all beautifully written,
all got so much depth and these songs as well, just amazing music.
I just miss it, I mean, I wish I could watch it again, like, I wish I could, you know,
not necessarily, like, I just think musicals are so precious when they work and Standing
(08:07):
at the Sky's Edge really works and I hope it has another life.
Me too, and one of the things that I guess worries me slightly is that there's been a
bit of a trend recently of musicals that go to the West End that have a queer protagonist
only lasting for quite a short run and it's, to me, it's a real shame that Standing at
(08:29):
the Sky's Edge is not still at that theatre, in the same way recently we've had with Why
Am I So Single? and, you know, there's, Everybody's Talking About Jamie did okay but that's a
very specific type of queer character that I think society is very comfortable with and
actually the lovely thing about Standing at the Sky's Edge is that there's all sorts of
queer characters in the background as well.
(08:51):
Yeah, not just, and I mean, I guess there's so many, like you say, it's such a shame about
Why Am I So Single but with Sky's Edge I think because, like I say, it's never really mentioned,
it's just they are in a relationship, you know, you've got the best friend Marcus who's
also gay, you know, there's smatterings throughout the show, it doesn't feel like a queer show,
(09:18):
it's just life and that's what the, you know, the kind of fabric of life is, we're all in
there somewhere.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah, I was going to kind of move on to some of your other work and particularly the musical
that you were working on, I guess, well you're still working on but we've been working on
the last few years which is Bloody Elle.
(09:39):
Yes.
And I wanted to talk to you more about that as another example, a different example
of a queer character, a lesbian character being right at the forefront of a story.
So tell us a bit about that.
Wow, well, I mean, I wrote Bloody Elle in lockdown and I'd always wanted to write something that
came from my experience of coming out in the working class north and I started as a singer-songwriter
(10:05):
so I used to gig a lot and play guitar and sing and I always wanted to make a piece of
theatre that felt like a gig, like it starts with a song and then, you know, the chat between
songs that artists do and then all of a sudden it becomes another beast entirely and we have,
we're in the theatre.
(10:25):
I wrote it because I just had never seen it and I feel still progressively actually frustrated
by the lack of female identifying queer narratives on stage, especially in leading roles, you
know, not just thrown in for, you know, a bit of, you know, like fetishised or a phase
(10:46):
or spicing up a storyline, like a real, like we actually exist and we deserve to have our
stories told and I think with Bloody Elle it really came from, I never expected it to do
what it did but it came from like quite a cathartic place for me to write this story
and it is, it's based on my experiences of coming out and it's using a lot of songs,
(11:13):
there's 14 songs in it that I've written, some of them I wrote when I was like 17, which
was kind of nuts as I was writing it, I was like, oh I've written, I know, oh I've written
this song 10 years, like how many years ago, so, but it started as many things did in lockdown,
kind of on Zoom, kind of pitching it out there and seeing if anybody, you know, was bothered
(11:36):
and it turns out there were, so we reopened the Royal Exchange which, after COVID, which
was like, still to this day I can't believe I can say that, like, I mean, you know, I'd
never even managed to get an audition at the Royal Exchange and then after COVID I was
reopening it with my one-person show and I wanted to just put on stage the, I didn't,
(12:01):
again, it's not similar to Sky's Edge but I guess it kind of is in the sense that it's
not, there's no rainbows on the poster, it's not plastered that it's this lesbian musical,
what it is, it's a love story set to gig music and theatre and it just happens to be about
two female identifying people and I think one of the things I'm most proud of is that
(12:26):
as I, you know, I kind of wrote it thinking, oh this would be great for the little queerbies
out there who want to, like, see themselves represented, which is what I would have wanted
to see at that age, but also, like, a lot of people who, a lot of parents thanked me
and saying, God, I kind of understand my child a bit better now and, you know, some people
(12:46):
that are predominantly living in heteronormative relationships were like, God, I've never thought
of it like that. People, we took it to the Fringe and that's kind of where, it was an
amazing experience. I think the Edinburgh Fringe, it can be a difficult place and I
was lucky enough to have a really, really fantastic experience up there and the show
(13:09):
did really well. We were at the Traverse and they supported the show so much and from there
we took it into Soho with the Trav, but we sold out, we, like, won awards, we were, like,
adding shows and a lot of the audience that come to the Traverse at the Fringe, they come
to see everything at the Traverse. So, there was people that probably wouldn't, I know,
(13:34):
I don't want to brushstroke anyone, but they were seeing something that maybe they wouldn't
have seen, you know, and were like, oh God, I've never thought of it like that or really
moved by it and that's the thing I'm probably most proud of, is that it's for everyone.
As is Sky's Edge, you know, the applause at the end of that, you know, the snog, is everyone's
(14:00):
relation, everyone has a version of that in their head, whether it's that relationship
or whatever. But yeah, Bloody Elle, hopefully, I am doing my best and it looks like it might
be happening again next year.
If you're interested in LGBTQ+ representation in musical theatre, check out our website
(14:24):
www.queermusicals.com for lots more information about musicals with LGBTQ+ characters.
I love what you were saying there about trying to get things that anyone can relate to, but
at the same time also people noticing what's different or what can be different from the
(14:48):
experience of as a queer person.
Absolutely, yeah.
I don't know whether it's something to do with, I've been thinking a lot about non-binary
thinking recently. It's only been recently that I've kind of thought that that might
be where I fit, but I love the idea particularly about when you think it's not just, it's either
this or it's that, actually a piece of art can do two quite opposite things at the same
(15:09):
time.
Yeah, absolutely.
So it's great to have work like Standing at the Sky's Edge and Bloody Elle. And there
are other musicals out there that have lesbian protagonists there. There's not many of them,
but they, you know, I was thinking about Bad Girls, which was quite, you know, some time
ago. And, but yeah, it's one of those, it always has struck me as being very strange
(15:33):
that the female queer experience is so little represented when it's such a, it's such an
amazing, I mean, obviously not, I'm not talking lived experience here, but there's such amazing
differences and things that people gain from the different way that people have to navigate
(15:54):
the world, I suppose.
Yeah, absolutely. I think when I think about the, when I was younger and I was kind of
realising that potentially, I'd never met a lesbian, I didn't know what one was, but
I knew something was a bit awry. And I remember watching like Queer as Folk on like, volume
two.
Yes. Oh, we've all done that.
Yeah, haven't we? And I was like, God, I really relate to this and I can't really work out
(16:17):
why. And even though it was the male experience predominantly, it was, there was still a,
still a, something that I was piecing together. And I still feel there's such a lack of female
queer representation. It's frustrating. I feel like the, it's, it's funny, isn't it?
(16:38):
Because I think in a marginalised group of the queer community, actually, gay relationships
and lesbian relationships are so opposite in many ways.
Yes, I think so.
And I love supporting queer work, but so much of it is, is through the
male gaze.
Yes.
And I think there's so much more room for lesbian narratives, for non-binary narratives,
(17:01):
for trans narratives. And I saw Otherland at the Almeida, Chris's show, and just to
be able to sit in a space and witness and watch amazing work about something that is
so specific, but so relatable. And so, you know, I felt richer as a human for seeing
(17:27):
that show.
Yes.
And I felt like, I feel like the world needs that empathy and needs, that's what theatre,
that's what theatre has the magic wand of doing. I don't want to go and, I don't just
want to see lesbian shows either, but you know, I want to see, I want to see a mixed
tapestry.
Yeah.
And there is obviously space for everything, but I just wish there was a bit more room
(17:50):
for the female non-binary storylines.
Yeah, I agree. I think, I mean, I think it's, there's so many stories that are untold in
musical theatre at the moment, and it does feel like we get stuck with the same story
just repackaged over and over.
Yeah. And I wonder if that's something to do with, you know, in society, like you say
(18:14):
with Everybody's Talking About Jamie, I mean, what an amazing musical, firstly, and based
on a documentary that was about, you know, a young, I think, I think they were from the
North East somewhere, weren't they? Durham, yeah. Because I remember they were probably
like that, weren't they? They weren't like Sheffield. But again, there's an obvious,
(18:36):
I remember watching that at the time and it was a, whereas now, you know, it feels like
the world has moved on, but, and people are a bit more understanding and those shows
feel like, oh, there's a, there's a, there's a young person in drag, a drag queen.
And because of RuPaul and all this thing, it's quite palatable for people to watch that.
Whereas I think, you know, some people, when they imagine a lesbian still imagine something
(19:02):
very, you know, archaic potentially, like, I still have to work out what is me and what
is what I had to adopt 20 years ago to exist in a community where because I had long hair,
people wouldn't believe I was gay. Like, it's crazy. Whereas now, you know, my partner,
she's extremely femme and we've been in bars together and people have gone, are you gay
(19:26):
to her? And she's like, yeah, I am. Like, that's my partner, you know, but it is funny
how it's like, if it's not understood by the binary, then it can be alienating. And actually
that, in my opinion, it's the opposite. I think we need to understand the nuance of
the queer experience, not just the obvious.
And that's that comes through, I guess, telling different stories and stories with different
(19:51):
characters. I mean, I'm even thinking about Smoggie Queens, which is something that I watched
recently and I love and, you know, love your character in that. But even seeing those two,
well, it's kind of, it's sort of a love triangle, isn't it? In the very first series, but those
characters, there's something really lovely about and slightly unexpected, I guess, from
(20:12):
the sorts of stereotypes that we see of queer women.
Yeah. Yeah, it's been, I mean, Smoggie is such a joyful, if you haven't seen it, listeners,
please do. It's BBC Three. Phil Dunning has just written, I mean, it's hilarious and it's
camp and it's silly. It's about a load of drag queens and a queer, your chosen family
in the Northeast. But again, when I got the audition, it's so funny, I've spent my whole
(20:36):
life playing straight. And then the last three years I'm like, right, lesbian part,
let's go. And which I'm here for, by the way. But, you know, it's a beautiful thing to be
on a set. And, you know, there's a lot, there's a real mix of humans on that job. And Phil
is a gay Northeast lad and has written this chosen family, the nuance of the baby gay
(21:02):
and then the mum drag queen. But for the storyline of my part, Mel, there's Sal, who is with
a girl who's horrible, played by the amazing Charlotte Riley, who's just, I mean, the first
time I met her, she had a massive penis drawn on her face because of this. I mean, if you've
(21:25):
seen it, you'll know why I was like, all right, mate, that's how we first met. But yeah, it's
just great to see lesbian storylines on TV, on the BBC that aren't, you know, that are
real, that feel like relatable as, as relatable as Smoggie Queens can be. I think it really
is though. I think it's got the magic touch. Yeah. Yeah. And again, it's just one of those
(21:48):
themes, which is the thing that's different, I think, about the queer experience. I mean,
I know there are straight people who have chosen families as well, but I feel like for
most of us that are queer, that's something that we end up trying to find. Yeah. And it's
to have that sort of story. And again, there's not loads of stuff in theatre or certainly
not in musical theatre that have that story. I mean, I guess Rent to some extent is a chosen
(22:11):
family story, but quite dated in the way that it represents, you know, particularly the
lesbian and bisexual female characters in that. Yeah. But it just makes me think there
were so many more stories that could be written and could be, you know, on the stage. So I'm
excited to see what other things sort of come out as well. Yeah, me too.
(22:34):
If you want to follow us on social media, you can use queer.musicals on Instagram
or Facebook. Or you can follow me @drjameslovelock on Instagram.
Are you working on anything at the moment that you might be able to talk about?
(22:57):
Yes, I am. And I am in the process. And it's been something that I've wanted to do for
a while, but it's just been time like writing is amazing. And, you know, Bloody Elle kind
of came during lockdown when nothing else was happening. And I just had the time to
write it. Trying to find that time in normal life is really hard. But I am back on it.
(23:22):
I'm writing a musical called Jack, which is based on the life of Ann Lister, Gentleman
Jack, who is the kind of original Yorkshire, lesbian Lothario. And she, if you don't know
who she is, she lived in Shibden Hall in Halifax. She was a woman like, like, you know, there
(23:42):
was no one else really like her at the time. She owned property, which women just didn't
do. She was a business, she had a business. And also she was a lesbian. She was sleeping
with a lot of women in Halifax and Yorkshire and probably across the world. But she wrote
a diary and she wrote it all in code. It's a mixture of Greek and Zodiac signs and she
(24:04):
hid it in her walls. And then when she died, like 50 years later, her diaries were found
and the code was cracked. Wow. And it turned out that there was a lot going on. So, you
know, my, like we were saying, there's not a huge amount of, you know, female, queer
(24:25):
relationships portrayed in musical theatre. You may be lucky to get one a decade, really
mainstream kind of lead role. But in I'm writing five, there's five lesbian relationships in
my new musical. Excellent. And we're and it's not... And all those five women, non-binary
people are very different. Yeah. And it's my passion project at the moment to to tell
(24:50):
the story of Anne Lister through the five pivotal women of her past and how different
their experience can be was with Anne, but also how different they are as humans. And
yeah, that must be really interesting going from the diaries, which are Anne's perspective
(25:11):
and then trying to work backwards from the characters to kind of work out how they how
their perspectives might be different. Yeah. I mean, my brain is on fire, but it's it's
really fun. I've been I'm a member of MMD, the Mercury Musical Development. And I did
a writer's week last week with them. And I wanted to set aside that week just to really
(25:35):
get my head back in it, because I find it's either I either am so in it that I dream about
it and, you know, like I kind of have to be there. And and it's like I feel passionately
about it. So those two kind of ingredients, I hope, will lead to a really exciting show.
But the music I'm writing the music at the moment and but getting into the head of five
(25:59):
different women on their one relation and their relationship with one person is it's
a really fascinating thing. And I think we all I mean, I personally I certainly draw
on my experiences. I mean, I came out when I was like, 15, 16. And I'm now. And so it's
been a while. And I am my experiences over those years have changed a lot. You know,
(26:25):
there was a there was now, you know, back then there was a lot of shame. There was a
lot of hiding. There was a lot of secrets. There was a lot of I was with people that
weren't happy with, you know, their sexuality couldn't felt I couldn't live their truth.
And that's a really sad, yeah, rubbish thing. And I, you know, that still happens today.
(26:46):
And again, I think that leads back to there being a lack of representation. I feel if
there's more and there's a more wider tapestry of it, there's, you know, that gives people
an outlet to understand what's going on. Yeah, I totally agree. I went and saw this wonderful
musical yesterday called the Ministry of Lesbian Affairs, which is currently on at the Kiln
(27:10):
theatre and was at the Soho theatre, I think, a couple of years ago. Yeah. And I learned
so much from that just from, you know, sitting in in that space with a whole load of different
characters, all of whom are lesbian or bisexual or trans, or whatever it might be an all women.
And I learned so many things that I wouldn't have known because I've never been in that
(27:32):
situation. And I was such a lovely story as well, you know, setting a choir and yeah,
so much fun. Perfect. Yeah, I need to go on my list. Yeah, wait to see it. And I'm excited
for that very reason to see you know, how, how and what and who those women are. Yeah.
But it's, it's, it's about that, isn't it? It's about being able to experience the differences.
(27:59):
It's not the obvious. And that it's a bit like it was about the grey, the middle ground,
like I'm here for that. I find it really fascinating that I've got some, you know, amazing male
gay friends that have no idea about, you know, the cat, when I Kissed A Girl came out last
year, you know, this golden retriever and black cat conversation was like, Oh my god.
(28:21):
And I was like, Yeah, where have you been? You know? And I yeah, and I think whereas,
you know, we all know what a twink and a bear is and an otter and all those things, because
I guess it's more out there. Yes. Whereas, we aren't a secret. Lesbian aren't a secret
code unless... well Anne Lister is. But you know, there is that we, you know, we exist. We're not,
(28:46):
you know, and I feel like, I really want and wish that we, that people will open doors
and allow that space and that platform for the for those stories, because they are as
important as all the others. Yeah. And actually, the musical that you're working on at the
moment and having, well, I guess six female characters there with Anne Lister as well. Each
(29:09):
of them different, each of them having different backgrounds, because, you know, it's the same
as I used to say, you know, going back 10 or 20 years when we're talking about gay characters
in musical theatre, and the only one was the one that would dance on to a camp number then
dance off again. Sometimes we're like that. But we're not, you know, not all gay
men. I feel like there's been a lot more nuance around that more recently, even in terms of,
(29:34):
you know, looking across intersections with race or with social class. Yeah. And now it's
time for that to happen for queer women as well and preach and non binary people. And
so I'm very, I'm very excited to see how you kind of find those five different characters.
And it's so exciting. I mean, it's been a while since I've written anything. But, you
know, that that moment where you go, Oh, what musical language does this character have?
(29:57):
What music does this person listen to? Or? Yeah, of course, that's been difficult in
the 1700s. They didn't have Walkmans. Walkmans? What am I, in the 1980s? Minidisc player? Yes,
they didn't have record players in those days. No, yeah, not quite. No. I mean, I think that's,
I mean, for that, for that, for the play, I'm bringing a lot of it to now. And I think
(30:21):
that that's instead of it going back in time, instead of it going forward in time
and going back in time. And I am... one of the things I was really fascinated about when
I started working on it. And it's something that I felt throughout my experiences, while
writing and being part of queer work in a bit on a bigger platform is that the experiences
(30:43):
of me as a 30 something year old, and the experiences of somebody in their 50s, 60s,
who's come to see the show. A lot of people have said to me, God, I thought it would have
been better. Yes. By the time you know, after Bloody Elle, I had a big group of women from
Hebden Bridge come and see the show. And it was amazing. And then and they were great.
(31:06):
They were raucous as anything. It was great. But afterwards, I was chatting to them a bit
and they were like, oh, they told me about when they were younger, there was a one lesbian
place in Leeds and it was at the top floor of a building and they had to like run upstairs
because people would like shout at them and like, and, and they were telling me this and
(31:26):
then having seen the show, and if anyone has seen the show, or maybe you'll see it next
year. And they were like, God, I can't believe it. Your experiences were, and I didn't
have to run upstairs in Leeds. I mean, you know, but but there were there was similarities.
And even when I'm reading about the 1800s, and, you know, Anne Lister and and their affairs,
(31:52):
there's a there's a there's a secrecy, there's a shame, there's a, there's a nuance. And
I feel, you know, I feel excited about that, in that I can crack that open a bit and we
can have the conversation about like, why? Why is this still? Why is there a thread of
similarity from 1840 to 2025? Yes. And how do how do we how do we grow from that? How
(32:19):
do we build? How do we how do we smash that? Yeah, I think there's a big thing to do with
location there as well. It's funny, you mentioned Hebden Bridge, I have a PhD student at the
moment, whose writing a musical with non binary characters in that set in Hebden Bridge, right?
They come from Middlesbrough. Yeah, and, and it's really interesting. And again, the same
(32:39):
thing when I'm looking at their work and thinking, oh, my goodness, is this still how is this
still a thing for young people? You know, is it still as difficult almost as it was,
even though you've got all of these, you know, apps and what have you, which we didn't have
in my day? No, no, just about had a telephone. But yeah, just landline, Morse code in the
(33:03):
olden days. But I think that's really, there was there's something about that when I'm
working with students where I sometimes assume that more progress has been made than it has
and things have changed a bit. But also, yeah, there's a lot that's changed. I mean, there
but, and that's not for we are standing I always think we're standing on the shoulders
(33:23):
of giants. Okay, so I think I now I want to I've always lived an open, openly queer life
pretty much. And it wasn't always easy. But that was, that was the thing that I needed
to do, because I didn't know any other way of doing it. For a lot of people, it's not
that easy. And it makes me sad that those those, those situations still exist. I think
(33:49):
they will always exist. And but what we can do to make it easier, or at least have an
outlet is provide our and space for people to to be their authentic selves and see their
authentic selves. I mean, Hebden Bridge is one of my favorite places. I love it. And
(34:09):
that's so cliche. And I do, I love it so much. And I've got a few friends there. And, and,
you know, it's the the lesbian capital of Europe. Apparently, I don't know about that.
I mean, it probably is. But again, it's it. I find it as a place is it's a beautiful,
(34:32):
you know, Yorkshire village. The energy is very free. And anything goes. And I just wish
the world was a bit more Hebden Bridge. Yes. And it's funny when you're talking about that,
(35:07):
you know, that there are places that you go through. I can remember this even even back
in the 1980s. In the 1990s, when I was growing up, there are places that you go through,
you don't know what they are, what it is about. But there's something about them that kind
of calls you. Yeah. And, and, yeah, I mean, the theater was always a little bit like that,
I suppose for me. But, yeah, the fact that they're actually specific locations and places
(35:31):
where you, you know, where it just seems a little bit easier to be yourself, you know,
yeah. And that's, I guess, what the like these shows, queer shows, give people that space,
you know, gay queer spaces give you that space, you know, where you go in and you can breathe
out a bit. And that's what, you know, I think that's what Sky's Edge certainly did for a
(35:52):
lot of people in that storyline, and especially being such a mainstream commercial musical.
That's the difference for me. I think with Bloody Elle, I've had to kind of fight quite hard
to make that happen. And I've had amazing supporters and angels on the way who without
I would, it wouldn't be anywhere. And I'm forever grateful for that. And, and there's
(36:15):
a real team of us that have, you know, I've written it and I'm and it's a one person show,
I'm doing it, but there's a real village that has been built to make that show happen. But
I think it's still difficult. It's still been difficult. The journey's still been, I felt
like I've had to bang on doors with a really great show that matters that, that has really
(36:40):
helped people. And I mean, I, when I did it at the Exchange, it was still socially distanced.
Remember those days? It was still masks. It was such a, I mean, I always, it's quite direct
address, the show. And I kind of was looking in people's eyes and they had masks. It was
just such a straight, but it was, it was amazing. But I got a lot of letters, I got a lot
(37:02):
of tweets, you know, back in the day with Twitter, I got a lot of messages
on social media from people like parents, young people. I got a letter from a man in
his eighties who had, you know, said that the show had been the rainbow that he needed.
And I mean, my God, I always said if I could help one person with that show, then my job
(37:26):
is done. And I think it, I know that I know that it's helped more than it's helped me.
I mean, every time I do it, I'm in a different place in my life as well. And certain bits
resonate in a different way. And that's the beauty of what we do and why we tell stories.
Absolutely. Absolutely. And also there's a thing I think with queer work, when you're
(37:47):
taking it to theatres and producers where they're like, Oh, I don't think there's enough
lesbians in this area. And you think, well, A, yes, there is. And B, it's not just for
people who are lesbians, you know, and it's, there seems to be this thing and it's very
specifically with queer musicals, I think specifically now more to do with the
(38:07):
LBTQ part of the, you know, LGBTQ community. And it's, it's so unfair that that seems to
be the thing. I was just talking on another podcast episode about the representation of
disability as well. And you know, how it's not just about making work. Yes, it is about
making work so that we can see ourselves, but it's so that others can see us as well.
(38:28):
Because that that's the thing that I'm interested in now is trying to find ways to find these
musicals first of all, that are in development. And I've been encouraging a lot of the actors
who've been on these podcasts to talk about things they've been workshopping. Yeah, we're
quite often quite secretive about things. Oh, it's not ready yet. Shh, don't talk about
it. But actually, it's really important that we we kind of get the word out of it. So people
(38:49):
know what to follow. Yeah. And then how do we take it? So it might be at the moment that
it's a load of songs and a bit of script. And you know, how does it get from there to
be, you know, to what stages does it need to go through to make it something that people
can experience in its, I say final, it never is, is it? But yeah, you know, in in
a version? Yeah. And you know, and what can we do? What can other queer people do? What
(39:13):
can you know, the community do to support that work? And that really excellent
work that we want to see, how can we help to get it from where it starts to where it ends,
I suppose. Yeah. And it does take a village. It really does. I mean, it's great. Because
it's hard, isn't it? I mean, you want things to be perfect, not perfect, but you want things
to be ready. And yeah, but I think it's really important to let people know that these things
(39:38):
are coming. Yeah, because I mean, I also to give myself a deadline, I've got right. But
yeah, I it's such a long journey, especially writing musicals. I mean, there's some mad
statistic that it's at least six or seven years. And I completely believe that with
Bloody Elle, it kind of like shot out and I still don't really know how I did it. But
(40:05):
with this with this show that I'm the new show that I'm writing, because it's
based on on Anne Lister, and the women that she wrote about. And it's gonna
be hopefully not too long. And, and I've got really great people already working on it.
(40:28):
And that are really excited and are equally as ambitious and fueled by wanting to get
the female queer experience out more. So I feel like once it's ready, or whatever ready
means what's ready mean, but I just want to get a load of humans in a room and just see
if it's any good. And you know, sing it through and talk it through and have some
(40:51):
other people's brains. And yeah, that's the kind of, I guess, the joy of that sort of
workshopping process. And I'm at the moment I'm thinking about what are the most helpful
things that you can give people who are writing musicals, you know, is it most helpful to
put on a concert where little bits and pieces come from different musicals, so that is showcasing
(41:13):
songs? Or actually, is that not the most helpful way to kind of build up a following for a
show? You know, are there other options? Are there other things you can do? Do we want
to be seeing little bits of shows in, you know, together? It's an interesting one from
I guess, from a producing point of view, and from a point of view of somebody that teaches
students that are always looking for new work to develop. And, you know, thinking about
(41:36):
what ways can we support the new work that's going on, that's not going to be destructive
to it. Yeah, that people are willing to like get up and do. I mean, Adam Lenson and Signal,
I mean, there hasn't been one for a while, but they are great nights, because
you can do a song. You don't have to have the play, but you can do a song. And I did
(41:59):
it with a song from Jack, the last one that Adam did. And it was really great because
I've still to this, I did Beam the other week, and I was singing for one of the shows. And
a few people came up to me and were like, what's going on with Jack? And I was like,
you know, we listen, you know, people listen, and people care. And so that was a real nice
(42:26):
thing to have, because you're like, okay, no, it hasn't just disappeared, it's still
there. And I think with writing, because I am, I'm an actor, and I'm a writer. So I spend
a lot of my life either writing words or speaking other people's, or sometimes writing and speaking
my own. But writing is a lot. It's amazing. I love it. It's such a, it's like being given
(42:54):
wings, you know, you can do anything. But there's a cost, you know, like,
and I think when I'm writing about something that's, you know, Bloody Elle, for example,
it's so close to me, so close to my experience. And there's people in those in that play that
in my head are somebody, you know, and I'm having to dig deep, and I'm having to, you
(43:18):
know, and, and it's a lot. And so writing and writing with integrity and writing with
passion can sometimes take it out of you. And that's why it takes time. But also, there's
deadlines. Yeah. And, you know, there's, there's bursaries, if you're lucky enough to get them,
if there's people tapping the watch. So it's getting them, it's getting the balance
(43:41):
between writing the thing you want to write, and not being too precious and getting
something out there, trying it out, and then get... and I love, I mean, I love being an actor
in workshops. And, and I've written another play that was that I got the Peggy Ramsey
Channel Four bursary through the Royal Exchange, and it's based on a lecture. It's about three
(44:03):
sisters in the caravan in Yorkshire. And in that there's a queer relationship. It's not,
it's not the what the play is about. There just happens to be two women. But with that,
we had a workshop at the Royal Exchange. And I was I was the my director, Bryony Shanahan,
who's an amazing director. And she was like, do you want to read it? Because I've kind
of written one of the parts for me and I was like, No, I just want to be in this week in
(44:27):
this room as a writer and just hear it. Yeah. And, and that was amazing. Because then what
I had was six, seven women, non binary people's brains on this script that had been in my
head for like a year and a half. And they had thoughts about the characters because
they're only living that character, whereas I'm living seven people. Yeah. So it's such
(44:48):
a joy to get other people's brains and other people's experiences and other people's thoughts
on on the work that we create. But essentially, you have to make the thing you want to make.
And I always write what it is I'm trying to do. Like and put it above my laptop. Yeah.
So that I remember why I'm writing it. And what you know what I want the audience to
(45:09):
feel when they leave. Because because that's that's that's the thing isn't it? If you don't
do that, then yeah. Yeah. Sometimes grey's good and sometimes grey isn't good. Absolutely.
The one thing that I will say is that I've really felt I graduated in 2009 and have worked
(45:33):
on lots of amazing shows. Musicals, plays, telly. I was lucky enough to play Emily
in the Hired Man, which was such a gorgeous. I love that show. I played Jackson in an amateur
production. Did you? It was a very gay Jackson. Jackson can be a bit gay. I like that. But
(45:53):
I, you know, I played Rita in Educating Rita. I've had some gorgeous, amazing experiences
in my career. But I do joke, but it is in the last kind of four or three or four years
that all of a sudden there's, you know, there's that the lesbian role in Sky's Edge.
(46:14):
There's a lesbian role in Smoggie Queens. I had to write it to make it because, you know,
and I think it's a great step forward. But I also, you know, people often ask me
this question and I think it's a really hard question to answer. But do you think gay people
(46:35):
should only play? You know, do you think gay characters should only be played by gay people?
And I feel that I think, you know, I don't think you have to have experienced the things
that characters experience that say, I don't think you have to be a heroin addict to play
a heroin addict. I don't know. I'm not saying that. But I certainly think for queer roles, especially
(47:00):
female non-binary roles, there's not a lot of seats at the table. And I think when there's
a lot more seats at the table, knock yourself out. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, but I
believe that when there's so few that we should be given the opportunity at least to take
(47:22):
up that space because you can't buy lived experience. You can't, you
know, you can't emulate. And I feel that there's and that doesn't mean that, you know,
like I say, I was playing straight for a lot of years and I'm an actor and that's what
(47:43):
I can do because that's what I've been trying to do. I mean, I've snogged a lot of boys
on stage, not in real life. But I do think that's something that while there's
so few seats at the table, I really I feel strongly that we should be sitting in them.
I've started asking that question in a slightly different way now, which is what do we gain
(48:06):
when queer people play these roles? Yeah. And there's so many things. And when
I talked to people about it, I mean, I've spoken to I was lucky enough to talk to Lisa
Kron for a book that I'm working on that I've been working on for the last eight years.
that eventually I'll finish writing. Deadline. Yeah. Deadline. Deadline. But Lisa Kron was
saying that there is a shorthand between people who are queer. And certainly and, you know,
(48:31):
with someone like Beth Malone working on Fun Home, they both, I spoke to both of them. They
both talked about the idea of like a lesbian shorthand. There's a certain way that you
you don't even have to talk about it then. Whereas... 100 percent. Yeah. And I was talking
to, there's various things on different podcasts about this, but the idea that you
don't have to go through all of this research about what does it mean to be gay? What does
(48:54):
it mean to be lesbian? All this sort of stuff. You can just go straight for the really interesting
stuff about the character. Unsaid. Yeah. You know, my on Bloody Elle, my director is lesbian.
My sound designer is lesbian. My designer is lesbian. My dramaturg, lesbian. Yeah. If
I miss anyone out, sorry. But like there was just there's there was a commonality of experience.
(49:18):
There was a there was a shorthand where I didn't have to explain why that was
a bit, you know, what? You know, what? Why? Why when they first had sex, was it like
so good? Because, you know, well, I've kind of got one. And yeah, there was there
was things like that, you're right. It's really important to me. You
(49:42):
know, I go back to Bloody Elle as well. We are talking about queer work, so why not?
But it was really important to me that the creative team were either queer, female, non-binary
or working class. Yeah. One of like... three out of three would be great. But when you're
(50:03):
dealing with quite specific matter, like subject matter, you just want to be able to like get
on with the work and not try, and I'm here for having conversations. And I think, you
know, an echo chamber isn't the place we should be living. We should be, you know,
having conversations and pushing people's brains and thoughts. But when it comes
(50:27):
to making work, I'm like, we've got four weeks to put this on. Yeah, I can't be teaching
you about, you know, Golden Retrievers and Black Cats. And I mean, watch I Kissed
a Girl and then we'll have a chat. But, you know, I Kissed a Girl was a great. And, you
know, there's this renaissance of Chapelle Roan, and I Kissed a Girl, a lesbian won Big Brother.
(50:50):
You know, it feels like, OK, OK, everyone's getting on board now. Yeah. But we've existed,
you know, Sappho back in the day. So it's about time, really. And as an industry and especially
musical theatre and what Standing at the Sky's Edge did and the way that me and Laura got
(51:10):
hounded at stage door in like in like a lovely, beautiful way. But people were just so grateful
to see that storyline, so grateful to like sit there and experience that for however
long it was. And that's down to Chris's amazing writing. But it's it's proof to me that there's
an audience out there. Absolutely. And it might not be as obvious as, you know, sticking
(51:32):
the obvious LGBTQ+ big rainbow flag, you know, let's go. Yeah, it might not be that
obvious and there's space for that work. But give us some time. Give us
a platform because we deserve it. There's audiences for it and it will do nothing but
good for all of us. Absolutely. That's a great place to finish. Thank you so much, Lauryn.
(51:57):
Thank you for coming on the podcast today. And thank you very much for listening at home
and we'll see you soon. Thank you. Bye.
Thank you for listening to represent the queer musical theatre podcast. The research for
this series is funded by the British Academy Early Career Researchers Network seed fund and
(52:18):
supported by Sheffield Hallam University. The episodes were recorded at the Content
is Queen podcast studios at the Makerversity at Somerset House. For more information, go
to contentisqueen.org. In next week's episode, we talked to River Medway, star of RuPaul's
Drag Race, Unfortunate - the untold story of Ursula the Sea Witch, a musical parody and
(52:40):
Here and Now about their career in drag and musical theatre. See you then.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.