August 26, 2025 • 53 mins
Welcome to Represent, the queer musical theatre podcast.
My name is Dr. James Lovelock and I'm an academic and a huge musical theatre fan exploring the representation of all things queer in the musical theatre industry.
Our guest today is the wonderful and versatile actor, dancer and superstar swing Owen McHugh, who recently appeared in the fabulous Why Am I So Single? at the Garrick Theatre.
We discussed what the show means to us and how it created an inclusive space for its sparkling ensemble and we also explore some of Owen's other projects including But I'm a Cheerleader and Like a Rat.
There's also a very detailed analysis of how to gender bins and curtains when rehearsing for a West End show.
As always you can follow us on your favourite podcast platform and don't forget to share this episode on social media.
Links
Owen McHugh's instagram
James Lovelock's instagram
Represent podcast instagram and website
New musicals
Why Am I So Single? website, instagram, Spotify and Apple Music
But I'm A Cheerleader instagram and YouTube channel
'Wrestling' from But I'm A Cheerleader
Like A Rat - workshop promo
Television Shows
What It Feels Like For A Girl on BBC3
Love and Rage: Munroe Bergdof on Apple TV
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You're listening to Represent, the queer musical theatre podcast. My name is Dr.
(00:05):
James Lovelock and I'm an academic and a huge musical theatre fan exploring the
representation of all things queer in the musical theatre industry. Our guest
today is the wonderful and versatile actor, dancer and superstar swing Owen
McHugh, who recently appeared in the fabulous Why Am I So Single at the
Garrick Theatre. We discuss what the show means to us and how it created an
(00:29):
inclusive space for its sparkling ensemble and we also explore some of
Owen's other projects including But I'm a Cheerleader and Like a Rat. There's also
a very detailed analysis of how to gender bins and curtains when rehearsing
for a West End show. As always you can follow us on your favourite podcast
platform and don't forget to share this episode on social media. Let's get
(00:53):
started. Hello I'm Owen and I use he/him, they/them pronouns, whatever you
fancy and I'm a creative performer and happy to be chatting to you today. Yeah
I'm really looking forward to this because you've been in all my favourite shows. So this series I'm
(01:15):
trying to kind of look into the idea of queer gain and what we gain from shows
that have queer protagonists or shows where there are queer creatives leading
the work and that sort of thing. Yeah. And you've been involved recently in one of
my very favourite shows which is Why Am I So Single? and I wonder if you would
(01:35):
like to start off just by telling us a little bit about that show and your role
in it. Oh yeah of course. So I came to the show first in 2023 and in the summer I
did the workshop for it so that was my first kind of experience and it was like
five weeks. We were in Deptford, in Deptford Lounge. We were kind of like on
(01:58):
our own just playing, being creative and it was just the most fun and beautiful
kind of experience and we all hoped I think that something more would
happen with it and like really, I mean me personally, from first reading it and
hearing it and really believed that it was something special and then I did the
(02:22):
show as well then when it came to the Garrick last year, so 2024. And so yeah I
was in the first workshop I was an ensemble member and then did the show
and I was a swing, an offstage swing. So there was three of us who were swings
(02:42):
and then also Ebony who was our resident choreographer, she was an emergency
swing as well. So yeah I guess fell in love with the show. It's been my
favorite job that I've done really, like the most freeing and fun, silly but
important as well. I think it kind of has that real dichotomy, I don't know if
(03:05):
that's the right word, but it kind of celebrates all the silliness, theatricality
of typical big fancy shows but then also has this heart of friendship and
self-acceptance and self-discovery which I think is a really lovely thing to go
hand-in-hand because really in life I feel like they do and especially within
(03:29):
queer community I think that that's something that is there all the time. You
know you can be vulnerable and all of, a lot of queer people I think you can be
around each other and express your vulnerability and like understand each
other but at the same time in the next moment be silly and chaotic and
fun and so I think that the show really celebrated that. So yeah that's the
(03:55):
start of the show, there's a lot I could say about it.
It's a wonderful show and you know I think that's, you've just articulated there
something that I hadn't been able to put my finger on before about why it is that
I love that show so much and what makes it so different and that idea of kind of
the vulnerability and the silliness, those together. I love that. I think it
(04:19):
was so, I mean it was really led by Toby and Lucy and then also Ellen
and Joe Beighton and all the all the creatives and I think and also like the
way it was brought together. So I think that having like so many queer people
(04:41):
involved, so whether that's stage management, crew, dressers, cast, company, in
general creatives, I think and even if people weren't queer they were like
massive allies and also maybe had their own like own things within their life
maybe they'd felt othered in other parts of their life. So I think that everyone
(05:02):
came to it with this shared understanding, like who they were and
therefore the actual job, like the environment that that cultivated was one
of kind of accepting people for who they were and then so that was there and then
also I think like right from the workshop, like I remember Lucy who
(05:23):
directed, in the workshop she like, the first week was a lot of discovery
obviously because at that point I think they'd done an R&D maybe and they had
the music and stuff but it wasn't all complete, like 'Disco Ball' wasn't, I don't
think, there until like the third or fourth week of the workshop so it was
(05:44):
like being worked on. So we were kind of all, we did like so many fun creative
exercises where I think Lucy was like right we need to commit to the bit so
that was like we need to be silly and be unafraid because at the end of the day
we were playing bits of furniture and in the work that was the best bit yeah it
(06:05):
was like I mean in the workshop we I don't think they had established what
that vocabulary would be for the ensemble like they knew it was an
ensemble show they knew they wanted people around to kind of bring the story
to life of Nancy and Oliver's flat but the the way that they did that they
(06:26):
weren't quite sure so we were kind of really experimental and I remember we
had like different film genres that we like had to take and then I don't know
it would be like Six the musical in the style of an opera do you know I mean
like like being very like silly and playful too and to kind of get our guard
down and then that also happened when we did the production that then was in the
(06:50):
West End and I don't know I think that that leadership of that from the team
really infused into us and like and also just they are the best people like I
really like the creatives on this all of them like and Lucy and Toby and I think
(07:12):
that they they really care about it like so much and they care about the people
in front of them but they also like aren't precious you know they're happy
to have involvement from people or like ideas and I think that makes it a very
open environment and one that people can play in because it's not you know like
(07:34):
you need to do this you need to be this and like if you're not then it's a big
stress it's like well we're making a musical it's fun it is a lot of stress
and it is hard work but it's not you know I think they just have a really
good grasp. And there's a sort of thing about mess that I love about queer
productions that they're not you know they don't have to be too neat it
(07:56):
doesn't have to be the case that you know this person moves here and now you
have to find this spot on the floor and that. it feels like there's
something about being queer, I don't know whether this is true of everybody, I mean
I'm sure it isn't, but for me I love being in environments where everybody
gets to have their say and everyone that gets to suggest things and to make
(08:19):
things together. It's funny that you said about doing Six in the style of opera
because I haven't had many industry jobs but the first thing I had was with
Showstopper the improvised music. Oh I love Showstopper, where did you do that? In
the early days, very very early days I went up I was their pianist I went up to
the Edinburgh Fringe, I did the Hen and Chickens, the King's Head and
(08:42):
then once it got, I was a schoolteacher at the time, so once it's too big you
know I kind of handed it over to somebody who could actually play the
piano. Oh I'm sure you're brilliant. I loved that sort of playfulness and I
think also there's a thing that I've discovered with my own theatre company
when when improvisation is done by queer people it becomes very different. It's
(09:04):
not about being clever, it's not about being the funniest in the room, it's
about, there's something different that happens. yeah, sorts of situations so
that really inspires me that that's one of the things that you use. Yeah it definitely was
also Showstopper! I have seen a couple of times at the Edinburgh Fringe
(09:25):
because I'm from near Edinburgh so I love that you did that,
that's amazing. Yeah we're going back a very long time. This would be 2008, 2009.
Well it is amazing, I think it's so much fun and that you're right like that kind
of freedom and I think maybe I mean this might be going very deep dive but I think
(09:46):
with queer people because like the structure of life doesn't seem as
pre-planned maybe it's like the heteronormative ideal of you know I guess
you have a partner, you get a dog, you get a house, you get married, like and they're
all beautiful wonderful things if that's what you want, and plenty of queer people
do that too, but I think that the way that maybe I think also like creative
(10:11):
people and queer people like that kind of marriage, so it kind of that
combination of someone allows for a bit more of a free-spirited approach to life,
less structured more open and so therefore a bit more daring maybe, you
know. So I think that's absolutely and I think that's a really amazing kind of
(10:38):
thing which was definitely kind of instilled in Why Am I So Single? you
know. Yeah I mean it's funny, I talk a lot and I think I've spoken on the
podcast about this before about this idea of queer orientation or orienteering
as I like to call it, and the idea that this straight path or the heteronormative path that you've
mentioned is kind of the thing that's lit up in big lights. You see it
(11:00):
represented everywhere as you're growing up very much and so as queer people we're
often having to kind of find our own path. I always talk about it being like a
forest and finding your way from the middle of the forest out of the forest
and the straight paths all lit is in front of you but if you don't want to go
where that leads you, you have to find your own path. Going through the bushes, tangled and yeah
definitely that makes sense. Oh there's so many things we could talk about going through the bushes but we won't.
(11:24):
But yeah it's you know that that idea of trying to create new things and and also
I think the thing that I've been thinking more and more about is trying
to find ways to light those paths up for other people that might want to follow
them. Yeah I think that's like when you said that, you know the lit path and
(11:44):
then the one that's not so clear is I guess like all these explorations like
queer theatre or queer life just I guess being someone who's queer it can like
shine the torch a bit for someone who's coming behind you, do you know I mean and
I think that is really a beautiful thing to do, and sometimes with people I guess
(12:05):
that's unintentional, it's just them existing as who they are but most of
the time I think it is a conscious thing, because even if you're existing as an
openly queer person, maybe you're not so rigid in your gender expression, maybe
like that's a brave thing to do to leave the house and be that way or hold hands
with a certain person as you walk down the street, that's something that is
(12:29):
someone else might see that and see themselves in it, and so I think that
theatre is obviously a big expression of that because it's visible and it's art
and it's something that people are going to watch, whereas like but it can exist
in so many different facets of people's lives you know. Yeah I like that analogy
(12:50):
of the you know the straight path being very well lit and then everyone else
kind of having to, I guess, make their own. I find it really applies for musical
theatre as well and it's been one of the things I mean one of the reasons for
doing this research. yeah This series in particular is, I worry that there are so
(13:10):
many less queer musicals being produced than there were perhaps five years ago
yeah and I think they are still out there but they're not always in the
places you expect to find them. They're certainly at the moment not in the West
End, apart from Why Am I So Single? uh-huh and so that's why these these pieces are so
(13:31):
important and trying to find a way to keep these pieces alive for other people
who didn't get to see them in the theatre that that to me is really
important and so hopefully by us talking about things like Why Am I So Single and
perhaps a bit later But I'm A Cheerleader and these sorts of shows on
the podcast is that hopefully people will be inspired to go and find out more
about them. Definitely I think it's, obviously making shows as, I don't
(13:58):
claim to know exactly how all of that happens but obviously it
takes years and it's a lot of money and things like that and so I understand
it's difficult, and I guess people and want to sometimes put money on like a
safe bet in some ways, but I think the the inspiring thing and brave thing
about you know when certain you know producers and directors and creative
(14:22):
people in power can like put their power and presence into ideas that are gonna
maybe not at first speak to the masses but be important and and I think if you
look at TV and film obviously there's so many genres and so much output all the
time and but it's like it's quite obvious that people want nuance and they
(14:45):
want modern stories and they want and they want to showcase other like
experiences than just like you know the the ones that we've been told for years,
and so I think it's like oh that the audience is very much there for these
things it's just the like taking a risk to do it so yeah I hope that that can
(15:09):
happen more you know. Yeah absolutely.
If you're interested in LGBTQ+ representation in musical theatre check
out our website www.queermusicals.com for lots more information about
musicals with LGBTQ+ characters. So one of the things I loved about Why Am I
(15:35):
So Single was that the ensemble as well as having sort of characters that popped
in and out got to be furniture and I think that was a really joyous thing and also as one of the
swings you must have got to play most of the furniture. I think I did. I can't
remember exactly I think I did fridge, bin, plant, coat rack, lamp. I didn't do
(16:07):
curtain. Callum, Caitlin and did Ebony do curtain? I'm not sure if Ebony did curtain
but Callum and Caitlin they held the curtain strong when Jemima or Ran weren't
there. Yeah. They they curtained it up but did I do anything else? I don't think so
and I think I think they were the bits of furniture that I was which was
(16:29):
hilarious. The great thing as well about bits of furniture is that they are
non-gendered which means they can be played by anybody and that was one of
the things I loved about Why Am I So Single was that the swings got to go on
for you know pretty much whatever part you felt like. Yeah exactly. Well I think like it was
really I guess that is such a freeing thing because even like in the process
(16:54):
like like learning music for example Joe Beighton who was the musical supervisor
and then Chris Ma as well, who was MD, like the the parts were like split into one two
three four so it was rather than like soprano alto tenor bass and like that
just makes it so much straightaway like very non-gendered and so like things
(17:16):
like that were amazing and then when it was come to like deciding who was going
to cover which roles as a swing we had like priorities and I guess like our
vocal type maybe established those priorities or whatever which of course
that's like your anatomy might put you in certain places for certain characters
but also because this show had such freedom and silliness and like you know
(17:42):
we all played these kind of like guys from Grindr, we all played kind of sweet
boys who were trying to be flirty, you know, we all played these characters
regardless of our gender in the show so it meant that actually even those parts
which are gendered characters, they're kind of a pastiche or like, you know,
(18:05):
and so then and bits of furniture doesn't matter what gender you are, you
can bring your skills and yourself and your acting you know like playfulness to
it so I think that is something that I loved and something that I think is
really useful in the industry is you know like using people for their skills
and their ability and like as a swing you know I felt very much and Why Am I
(18:29):
So Single you know if we were doing a lot of different characters we could do
different accents or you know like so then therefore if like if I was singing
it versus if Caitlin was singing it we might be in different octaves but then
like the thing is like if me or Callum was singing it like yes we you know
might both have more similar voices anatomically but like Callum has
(18:52):
an amazing voice like range that is like probably able to go way higher than mine
so like you know just because we're like assigned the same gender and birth like
it doesn't mean that necessarily our voices will do exactly the same thing so
absolutely so therefore like it's just like oh you have swings these people who
are really hopefully like able to cover a lot of different bases let's use them
(19:16):
in the most useful and interesting way and so rather than okay it must be bound
by gender, you know and I think that was because of the way the show was
structured and stuff we could do that and it was yeah just I loved it, it was
very it was very fun to do to be all the different bits of furniture. And the
(19:39):
movement as well and the choreography that was that wasn't gendered either no it
was like an Ellen Kane, Queen Ellen Kane who I love, and like Michael Naylor as
well who's just the most like filled with sunshine like as a person they both
did the workshop, and then I'm also then Ebony came on as resident choreographer
(20:03):
who's she is just like the best, so funny, so great and so I'm like this like the
team choreographically I think it was just, it was like intense like I feel
like Ellen is so amazing with intention and why something is happening why
(20:24):
movement is happening and so really what informed that was the story, or how
we felt as a character rather than like being gendered you know cos
there really was no reason for it to be and also I guess the characters
were playing like a bin or a curtain you know you could be like I'm a very
(20:45):
masculine bin or you could be a feminine but you know you could be any type of
curtain, you could be like a big heavy drape that feels very like I am a masc
drape or you could be like I'm a chiffon curtain who feels very femme you know
like that's silly, but you know that that is we all ran around I remember
like in the in the rehearsal room and we were like okay right you're being you're
(21:09):
like a normal person walking around okay now you're like a number one curtain now
you're number 10 curtain like getting more curtain and like how would you move
it and like honestly the way that people like reacted to being bits furniture was
so funny and unique and so like yeah definitely we were, I think, encouraged to
be ourselves and to lean into like creativity rather than boys here girls here
(21:36):
you know. Did people, when they cast the ensemble as furniture did that
happen through the workshops? I am well in the workshop, like in the one that we
did in 2023, we I think we kind of swapped around a few times like we
obviously didn't have the costume so it was all like physicality I do remember
some people had things like Jemima was a magazine so she had a magazine, it
(21:58):
was like but I was a lamp and the workshop yeah but it kind of we played
with what they might be but I think it was a quicker process so it kind of
stuck as certain things and then when we came back to the actual next production
like some of those furniture ideas were like gone and new furniture ideas were
(22:18):
kind of instilled but I can't remember, maybe they did have conversations like
before of like who would be which piece of furniture but I can't really remember.
I don't think that was like casting 101 from it but I think it was like I think
maybe they saw what people were like and they were like oh yeah you'd be good at
that or yeah. You'd be an excellent bin. You'd be an excellent bin. Rhys was an amazing
(22:42):
bin do you know I mean like but the way that Rhys played the Bin or me or Callum
I think we were the three that did it like we all played it quite differently
so yeah I think that was fun I think I just think that's lovely that we're
having these kind of in-depth conversations about bins, about bins and
furniture but what on the one hand it's like gender identity queerness amazing
(23:05):
like deep conversation that it's like and I was a bin. Yeah do you know I mean
and that's what I feel like earlier is speaking about like the silliness but
combined with the vulnerability. I think those are kind of a perfect match. I was
thinking as well about the kind of moments of vulnerability and how much
how many moments that were in Why Am I So Single where I thought I don't know
(23:27):
that I've seen that part of me represented on stage before and you know.
What did you feel like? I mean the obvious one for me would be 'Disco Ball', yeah
which is very much how I see myself and I never thought that that would be
something that I'd see in musical theatre articulated in that way yeah but
then also I think I'm not dissimilar to to Oliver yeah as a character and there
(23:52):
were so many moments in that where I thought oh actually those are things I
haven't even thought about myself yeah now mm-hmm it kind of is like reflected
back to you and I think that makes like I think a lot of sense for me too is I
guess because there's not as much queer representation it's like it's harder to
see yourself reflected back so often so then when you see it, it's like actually
(24:15):
kind of hits home maybe a bit more poignantly because you really are like,
oh I've actually not seen that or I've not, like you said I've maybe not even
considered that that's me, but now I'm seeing it and oh my gosh that is me and
like 'Disco Ball' for me too, like I remember in the workshops being like
wow this is this feels different, it feels like I mean I think in the show
(24:42):
like the narrative of the show is it doesn't just come, it doesn't come out
of nowhere, it's so building the whole time to that point but then when it
happens you're like oh my gosh we're really going there, and I think as a
queer person like there was a there was a certain level of when we were dancing
(25:03):
around the Oliver character you had to disconnect by a certain point in
rehearsals and stuff you know you disconnected and you're like okay we are
our intention here is to support what's going on so we're like thinking this
person is amazing we want more and we want more and they're funny and they're
(25:25):
sparkly and we just want more and more and kind of we become savage with that
like that and desire and lust and kind of taking and taking from someone who's
giving so much, you know and so we were in that kind of frenzied state so when
you were doing it, you had a certain thing you were doing within your body
that felt like this revolving like energy inside you, which was crazy.
(25:50):
Sometimes you'd be doing it and you'd come off and you're back like that was
one that really was, I don't know if cathartic is the right word, but it was
like it felt like you kind of elevated ascended whatever yeah but I guess
alongside that, there's someone on a podium who's like breaking down and
shattering in front of you, and we are as the ensemble we are not privy to that we
(26:13):
are just expecting more of them and I think that is something that a lot of
queer people experience and they are the fun, funny person, the supportive
friend, the one who's you know masking maybe their vulnerability behind a big
personality and like not, that humor and everything is probably part of
(26:35):
who they are but there's also a lot of parts of them who of who they are that
are harder to speak about and so that they mask and then when it and then
it becomes too much and it's like oh I need to actually I'm actually breaking
(26:56):
now and I'm and then this is how I actually feel and I think that I'm you
know everyone who played Oliver - Jo, Jordan, Rhys, like you know really
were incredible to be able to do that to be able to push through that sort of
because even like I was speaking about obviously the ensemble around acting in
(27:21):
a certain way which is kind of aiding the story but also kind of disconnected
or I guess not empathetic to the character Oliver, but as a swing I
watched it a lot yes and so like I remember like honestly just would be in
floods would be sitting behind the desk like in runs and studio like
(27:45):
sobbing like or on the opening night I think it was maybe the first preview and
actually there was an issue with sound, so we needed to stop and then they
started again and the curtain came up and and honestly it was like we were on
I could feel the adrenaline pumping through my body I
was like it was so much to experience like even being a part of events and seeing
(28:12):
it on stage quite often. The last performance remember the swings we we
actually joined in a bit a couple of bits in the show, so like we did like the
opening of act two and the ending, which is really nice to be like on stage
with everyone on the final show, but we all were like let's run up and watch
'Disco Ball' for the last time and honestly it was like it was incredible
(28:38):
and I'm like to see that happening on stage and just be like feeling the
exhilaration of the kind of I don't even know but I just felt like so much was
happening inside my body watching this, and I think on the last show there was
like a standing ovation for like two minutes and like I was crying and I was
just like watching this number that I've watched so many times, I've been in so
(29:01):
many times but when you're in it especially as a swing you're like in
different positions, you're like right, where am I, what am I doing, whereas
watching it so I can imagine as an audience member watching it and just
being like arrested by that. Yeah, you know I saw it multiple times and every
time I can't really describe it was almost like there was anger inside
(29:25):
which is a very odd reaction to that, to a musical theatre song but there was
something about it there was something about it if recognizing something that
isn't fair. Yeah, I don't, I think that's like really natural like I guess I
probably felt it's like this I think that's really natural to feel it because
it's this I guess maybe anger frustration at the world that is making
(29:50):
someone feel like, that it's made me feel like that maybe, you know like I'm being
like, oh my gosh, it doesn't need to be this way but it is sadly that way a lot
of times and so you feel like I think it's one of those experiences I can't
really describe it very well, you're feeling so much but you kind of oh you
(30:10):
know you feel this like I am exhaustion almost at the end because you're like I
feel emotional, I feel vulnerable, I feel I'm sad, I feel angry, and that's just
watching it, do you know I mean? Like being like someone who played Oliver,
like they are so brave like all of them who did it, and like Toby and Lucy like
(30:36):
creating that numbers is brave and is and it's like what needs to be done, I
think, like more of that you know. If you want to follow us on social media you
can use queer.musicals on Instagram or Facebook or you can follow me at
(30:57):
drjameslovelock on Instagram. I think the other thing that occurred to me just
while you were talking there is thinking about the idea as well that in this show
the queer character is, I mean I think they even sing it, but the queer
(31:19):
character is the main character, the protagonist, rather than being the
sidekick. Yeah definitely. That's so unusual and I think there's something
really lovely you know about the way that Nancy is played and you know and
yes. It's a very very supportive role in that and you know really beautiful. Yeah
(31:42):
so I feel like the portrayals of that you know like Leesa,
Collette, Tash, like all of them like I had that and it was almost like you know the
like that was a fully fledged storyline as well for the Nancy, you know with
grief and loss and what that does to a person and like, but it also allowed the
(32:05):
queer character to be the main, the protagonist ,and I think and kind of a
lot like that character and the actors who played the character like allowed
for that space which I think is so, and even the creation of the character you
know it really I think is important to have that and I love being around that
(32:30):
and just you know having a queer character at the helm of something to
like tell their story and not be a side note or a kind of like oh and there's a
bit of queerness there for the you know for the audience for you know to tick a
box, to actually like delve into it you know which I think maybe is more, I don't
(32:54):
watch like a lot of plays, I would love to, but I'd but I feel like maybe in
plays or in like TV and film maybe is more explored but maybe in musical
theatre it isn't and. I think that's been the case. I mean, certainly there's, you
know, there was a good ten years where the only characters that you saw would
be cis white gay male, definitely yeah, and they'd come on, I wrote a book
(33:16):
chapter about it once, and I pointed out that there were three types of gay male
character in musical theatre at the time which was the drag queen, the drama
queen, and the dancing queen, yeah and the dancing queen is the one we're talking
about, which is the character that comes on does a number and then never gets
mentioned again, yeah. So many shows in the 2000s in the early 2010s
have that and yes you know, some, for some of you at least it was something
(33:40):
but also how lovely is it to have a show which explores a non-binary character in
that amount, oh my gosh absolutely, and like those characters you're kind
of speaking of feel like, for me, like I guess yes they are representing you know
queerness but it's in a very like distilled way that probably is for
(34:02):
entertainment purposes, not for queer people for straight people you know like
and whereas like this was in queer representation for queer people and like
of course for anyone to be able to like acknowledge and see and I guess learn
from or have empathy for, but it wasn't for heteronormative society just to be
(34:28):
like oh and there's a funny gay yeah you know absolutely absolutely I've spoken
about on the podcast before the problem of musical theatre being like an
adaptive genre primarily, so always adapting stories that already exist yeah,
and at the moment that tends to be films from 1980s 90s and 2000s yeah which are
(34:50):
not known for having many gay characters in, and in fact the gay characters that
are in them are as we've just discussed cis white men and tend to be in the
sidekick role and so what's happening at the moment on the West End is that we
don't, we have very limited representation and sometimes you know
there are shows that try and yeah the foreground a bit but we don't really
have shows about those characters but I was going to talk to you a little bit
(35:13):
about But I'm A Cheerleader which is an adaptive, yeah sure, but that does have a
queer character right in the centre and I'd love to know more about your
experience on that show because I think that's another show that's kind of a
queer-led or definitely,,, Like it was, I loved it , it was like such a whirlwind
(35:33):
going into it because I was a swing again and for that show but it had
already started so it was like maybe a month into the run but I think they were
having like quite a lot of like illness and things like that so they needed a
couple of swings for me and my friend Lauren and who I met on that job and we
went in and became swings on it and it was very fast turn around like, I don't
(35:57):
know how many days of rehearsal but not many, maybe a couple and then I was like
kind of on and I think I maybe played like two or three tracks but they all
had like a storyline so I feel like even it was you know like I guess it's like a
comedy I can't remember exactly when the film came out but it's about
(36:19):
conversion therapy camp and a girl who is cheerleader-popular all those kind of
and stereotypical things that you wouldn't assume would lead someone to be
gay. And so she's a lesbian but she gets sent to this camp basically and
that sounds very dark and it is like obviously like a very dark traumatic
(36:45):
thing but this story is so full of light and laughter as well because it's, you
know, a comedy and it has I think similar things maybe like we were talking about
Why Am I So Single is it has that contrast and that those two ideas can
exist at once and yeah I guess so like playing a swing was quite interesting on
(37:07):
it, because all of those characters had their own journey with queerness and you
know and so it was beautiful to watch all of those different characters and
also I think like I'm like in Why Am I So Single there's non-binary character
you know like in a lead which is so amazing and in But I'm A Cheerleader, it's
like queer women like which I think a lot of the time aren't represented
(37:32):
enough or like it's a very narrow idea of what that is, and I think your friend
Tania as well who's been on the podcast is amazing like brilliant, and like she
you know is a queer woman who is directing that as well so I think that's
really important and like to have someone who has experience or even if
(37:57):
they don't have experience like empathy and like understanding and education to
then like lead with like authenticity so I think that is was really nice about
But I'm A Cheerleader is that it has a lot of different stories it has queer
women at the forefront and it kind of brought together that poignant and also
(38:19):
like funny, like it is so funny it was really like it's kind of ridiculous the
way they convey a conversion therapy camp like. It's very Disneyfied, isn't it?
You know, all the boys are blue and girls are pink, it's done to a
really yeah stupid degree. Yeah yeah the music is well like it's so good and like
(38:40):
Alexzandra Sarmiento, who is a friend and she choreographed and she was just so like
like, her choreography as well, like kind of to signify those different groups
or like the way it was, so kind of they were trying to be like prim and proper
or like really masculine at points, or like the girls all had like who very
(39:01):
similar you know like vacuuming in time and stuff and you know like like kind of
like ridiculing I guess the idea of like straightness and heteronormativity like
oh really like are we really aiming for this? like yeah and yes it was great. I
think my abiding memory of that section will be Evie-Rose Lane who was
(39:22):
oh yeah so brilliant rocking a baby with oh my god yeah like the most bored
looking basic thunder yeah, it was so good oh my god, Evie is amazing. Like I
mean, there was so many songs and that like 'Wrestling', that song you know song
oh but Aaron sang it was like yeah there's a lovely recording of Telly Leung
(39:43):
singing that, because there's not actually loads of But I'm A
Cheerleader that's out there, yeah accessible, I think because of rights but yeah that
performance is there but there was there's so many moments. You were
talking about choreography and there was a dream ballet in that wasn't there? Oh
my gosh yes, and I loved that so much because it was, there was yeah and it was
(40:04):
like because I think the dream ballet kind of turned evil did it not? Like and
this is like my swing brain took so much information in and then after the show
is like, okay I need to go into another, but yeah I can remember those dream
ballet. There was like, because there was a bit we kind of all came on and it
(40:27):
was like, they were dreaming, like they were obviously having a dream and we were
these people moving, they had beds that we moved around, yes you know I guess
there's a whole like simulated kind of like sex thing as well with how like how
you have sex, and that's from the movie, yeah exactly a song which is quite
what it's so good and like yeah I'm like, I did the first, I know they did it
(40:50):
again but I did the first round time round and like Tiffany Graves did the
like, and she was just so like hilarious like with them like that kind of like
the evil matriarch of the you know like of the camp, and you will do this, and you
won't do that and you know. There's a wonderful song called 'Perfect Little
(41:14):
World' as well. yes A little bit sort of evil Mary Poppins. yeah very
vibe, definitely yeah it's a wonderful show. I mean the other song that I love
from it is and again it's a shame that it's not available anywhere else but as I
think it's called is it 'Whole New Me' and it's set in the bedroom at
night and it's all of these queer kids are singing about how they want to be
(41:37):
different and it's like it's a really heartbreaking song and it's it's set to
almost to a lullaby but again that moment was really powerful and again
something that I hadn't thought that I would see in musical theatre and they're
all alone. I think yeah I remember being like spaced out in there on the stage
(41:58):
and like they're all feeling so alone but they all have such a shared
experience that they kind of don't I guess acknowledge at the start and they
are, and yeah you don't expect to see that portrayed maybe yeah. It's funny, I
saw Fangirls, I never got to see it, is that has a similar moment where
(42:21):
they sing the song 'Disgusting' which yeah they're all in their own bedrooms all of
the ensemble yeah you know whether they're it's a kind of a queer-feminist
story and that's that's a lovely moment as well, and I think one of the
things that allowing queer people to kind of be in charge of their
storytelling is that you do get these nuanced moments. Definitely they come
(42:42):
unexpected because we all know what they are but we haven't necessarily had the
space to articulate them yet definitely and like the space to like see them
you know like I mean I feel lucky to be able to kind of have been in those shows
to be able to see them and also that be a part of experiencing them through being
(43:05):
a character and I guess that with that representation. I remember after show
one night on But I'm A Cheerleader, I think someone like put a little note under the
door which I was saying to you and someone read and it was from a trans
woman who had felt like represented on stage and I don't think in But I'm A Cheerleader
(43:29):
there's not like an explicit story, a story that's explicitly about
trans experience but I think that she was felt within the queerness, she felt
seen and acknowledged and like that in a way that she hadn't in theatre before
and so I think that is so it's kind of like heartbreaking and beautiful at the
(43:52):
same time because it's like, oh why is that not happened before, but also like
that's amazing that's happening now and so hopefully it can keep happening, you
know. This series of represent has been recorded at the Content is Queen studio
in Somerset House. Content is Queen is a podcast agency and community made up of
women, people of color and LGBTQIA+ people who wish to connect, create and
(44:16):
collaborate using audio and podcasting. For more information go to contentisqueen.org.
I was going to mention, I think I've mentioned this on the podcast
before, but there's a show that's been in workshop for quite some time called
Unicorn, which is a show about a trans woman and a trans woman's experience
it's kind of moving to a new city away from her family. It's beautiful and I
(44:38):
really hope that it gets picked up somewhere yeah because there's the other
thing that we've been talking about a little bit this series is that there's
quite a few shows with queer protagonists that are in workshop stages
yes and it's sometimes it's difficult for us to know where to look for them so
what I'm asking everybody this time is to tell us a little bit about a show
that they've workshopped that has a has queer protagonist, yeah a queer story in
(45:04):
it. Well I recently I was, I'm really happy to be a part of a show called Like
A Rat, which you're like, what's it gonna be about and it's directed by Molly
Stacey and Millie Foy who are both incredible at what they do and like
lovely people, and Molly was the associate director for Why Am I So Single?
(45:27):
so that's how I know her, but Rhys Wilkinson, who I'm giving everyone's full
names, but like you know, so everyone knows who they are, but Rhys is my
friend from Why Am I So Single as well, like and they are a choreographer
and so they were choreographing on it but couldn't be there for a lot
(45:50):
of it, so I was their associate, and so I did like the week of workshops and we
had like a couple of living room rehearsals like at my house because we
live quite near to each other, and it was like, I mean you'll understand when I
explain the story, but a lot of like we had towels and bags and like goggles and
rubber gloves it's that you know, basically it's a story about a
(46:15):
non-binary character called Billy who joins the women's swimming club at
Hampstead Heath at the ponds but they are non-binary and they meet these kind
of characters who are like all played by queer people, and so this story I
(46:36):
guess they make these relationships and they start to feel comfortable within
this group and then as the story progresses it kind of breaks down at
points because some of the people within the group want to make it
biologically female only space and so that then forces Billy to feel on the
outside and they have a conversation about that and all the different
(46:59):
characters, you know, have different opinions. I guess some are quite adamant
on what they think about sex and gender and some maybe are passively
accepting that more strident approach and so not being the best ally you know
like yeah it's kind of about that and about I guess gendered spaces and I mean
(47:24):
it was so much fun but Like A Rat, you can, you know it's funny and it's
amazing and like it was a kind of devised piece so they had some R&D days
where Molly and Millie wrote the the script from that and it was like,
yeah it was it was great and the music is beautiful as well so I think they've
(47:47):
done a workshop of it, we had like a week and they did like some showings I was
actually away for the showings, but then I think hopefully it'll have a life
after that at some point, so I definitely say watch out for that because it would
be because it's just them, yes I really I guess like it's quite a niche storyline
(48:11):
but actually has like but really sprawls out into more conversations you know
like Hampstead Heath ponds like not everyone might know about that but they
can definitely see through this story what what these conversations might be
be for like people with gendered spaces and I mean there's also like a camp
(48:33):
number called ladies of the lake which is the one with her and you know these
three characters of you know are showing Billy how they get in the lake and what
they are doing. We had to come up with how we might swim on land above the
surface obviously we're walking around in a rehearsal studio and actually
trying to create swimming or treading water, but yeah it was so much fun to do
(48:58):
that yeah, that's great, we'll definitely look out for Like A Rat and see how that
progresses. I've just got one more question for you, Owen, and that's what
would you like to see from musical theatre in the future? Well I think
there's a few things, but I think I'd love it to be accessible for people to
(49:19):
come and see theatre and in a way that I think the other mediums might be a bit
more accessible for people, and there's obviously people doing amazing work to
make make it happen but I think pricing for that musical theatre and
things like that there are things to help people but I think so it's more
widely available for people of different backgrounds, socioeconomic, so that it's
(49:43):
not just privileged you know people, or it can be something that if someone has
an interest they are able to to see that interest through and then that might
also encourage accessibility within people who take up as an interest and
pursue it and you know not just to witness it to actually be a part of it
(50:05):
because then I think that will change things from the inside out, and
definitely I feel like that is happening and you know there's people who have
really facilitated that and and I hope that that continues to happen because I
just think that if we can show different people within the industry then those
people, their voices will be heard and should be heard, you know to create
(50:29):
different stories. And I think that then leads on to another hope would be to
tell stories that are nuanced and interesting and representative of people
in the world we live in and I think that that obviously requires risk and bravery
but really it is just the world like, there is, you know, different people
(50:52):
existing in the world and I think I recently watched What It Feels Like To
Be A Girl, which is by Paris Lee based on her memoir and I just think
that was a brilliantly executed constructed crafted distillation of her
experiences maybe throughout growing up, and to watch that represent
(51:17):
her own story but also like reflect it back to people and in a UK setting which
maybe is more relatable for some people, or I recently watched Monroe Bergdorf's
documentary which was also incredibly nuanced and brilliant and with Jaz
Terry in it as well, and it was like it would be fantastic if those kind of
(51:41):
stories could be moved into maybe a musical theatre context and I don't know
how easy that is but I think hope for stories such as those to be moved into
musical theatre and also for playfulness, silliness and enjoyment, and to be like
selfishly, I would love to be in rooms that are full of people who are just
(52:06):
happy to be collaborative and engaged and generous and kind and I
think that as I would hope for more spaces within musical theatre that I
facilitate that because I think the people like completely are there, you
know, and if there's stories to be told and people to kind of come together to
(52:28):
tell those stories, they might have vulnerability and darkness and
difficulty in this in the character stories but also there will be light and
playfulness and in it too and how that's constructed so I would hope that you
know more the more different types of stories can be told and so yeah I think
(52:49):
those are a few things. Yeah that's great thank you so much and it's been lovely
to have you on today. Well thank you it's been lovely to chat to you. And thank you
everyone for listening and we'll see you soon, bye.
Thank you for listening to Represent, the queer musical theatre podcast. The
(53:10):
research for this series is funded by the British Academy Early Career
Researchers Network seed fund and supported by Sheffield Hallam
University. The episodes were recorded at the Content is Queen podcast studios at
the Makerversity at Somerset house. For more information go to contentisqueen.org.
Next week we are joined by Why Am I So Single alumni Joshian Angelo
(53:33):
Omaña and Finton Flynn who were both part of the UK tour of Everybody's
Talking About Jamie in 2024. See you then!
You're listening to Represent, the queer musical theatre podcast. My name is Dr.
(00:05):
James Lovelock and I'm an academic and a huge musical theatre fan exploring the
representation of all things queer in the musical theatre industry. Our guest
today is the wonderful and versatile actor, dancer and superstar swing Owen
McHugh, who recently appeared in the fabulous Why Am I So Single at the
Garrick Theatre. We discuss what the show means to us and how it created an
(00:29):
inclusive space for its sparkling ensemble and we also explore some of
Owen's other projects including But I'm a Cheerleader and Like a Rat. There's also
a very detailed analysis of how to gender bins and curtains when rehearsing
for a West End show. As always you can follow us on your favourite podcast
platform and don't forget to share this episode on social media. Let's get
(00:53):
started. Hello I'm Owen and I use he/him, they/them pronouns, whatever you
fancy and I'm a creative performer and happy to be chatting to you today. Yeah
I'm really looking forward to this because you've been in all my favourite shows. So this series I'm
(01:15):
trying to kind of look into the idea of queer gain and what we gain from shows
that have queer protagonists or shows where there are queer creatives leading
the work and that sort of thing. Yeah. And you've been involved recently in one of
my very favourite shows which is Why Am I So Single? and I wonder if you would
(01:35):
like to start off just by telling us a little bit about that show and your role
in it. Oh yeah of course. So I came to the show first in 2023 and in the summer I
did the workshop for it so that was my first kind of experience and it was like
five weeks. We were in Deptford, in Deptford Lounge. We were kind of like on
(01:58):
our own just playing, being creative and it was just the most fun and beautiful
kind of experience and we all hoped I think that something more would
happen with it and like really, I mean me personally, from first reading it and
hearing it and really believed that it was something special and then I did the
(02:22):
show as well then when it came to the Garrick last year, so 2024. And so yeah I
was in the first workshop I was an ensemble member and then did the show
and I was a swing, an offstage swing. So there was three of us who were swings
(02:42):
and then also Ebony who was our resident choreographer, she was an emergency
swing as well. So yeah I guess fell in love with the show. It's been my
favorite job that I've done really, like the most freeing and fun, silly but
important as well. I think it kind of has that real dichotomy, I don't know if
(03:05):
that's the right word, but it kind of celebrates all the silliness, theatricality
of typical big fancy shows but then also has this heart of friendship and
self-acceptance and self-discovery which I think is a really lovely thing to go
hand-in-hand because really in life I feel like they do and especially within
(03:29):
queer community I think that that's something that is there all the time. You
know you can be vulnerable and all of, a lot of queer people I think you can be
around each other and express your vulnerability and like understand each
other but at the same time in the next moment be silly and chaotic and
fun and so I think that the show really celebrated that. So yeah that's the
(03:55):
start of the show, there's a lot I could say about it.
It's a wonderful show and you know I think that's, you've just articulated there
something that I hadn't been able to put my finger on before about why it is that
I love that show so much and what makes it so different and that idea of kind of
the vulnerability and the silliness, those together. I love that. I think it
(04:19):
was so, I mean it was really led by Toby and Lucy and then also Ellen
and Joe Beighton and all the all the creatives and I think and also like the
way it was brought together. So I think that having like so many queer people
(04:41):
involved, so whether that's stage management, crew, dressers, cast, company, in
general creatives, I think and even if people weren't queer they were like
massive allies and also maybe had their own like own things within their life
maybe they'd felt othered in other parts of their life. So I think that everyone
(05:02):
came to it with this shared understanding, like who they were and
therefore the actual job, like the environment that that cultivated was one
of kind of accepting people for who they were and then so that was there and then
also I think like right from the workshop, like I remember Lucy who
(05:23):
directed, in the workshop she like, the first week was a lot of discovery
obviously because at that point I think they'd done an R&D maybe and they had
the music and stuff but it wasn't all complete, like 'Disco Ball' wasn't, I don't
think, there until like the third or fourth week of the workshop so it was
(05:44):
like being worked on. So we were kind of all, we did like so many fun creative
exercises where I think Lucy was like right we need to commit to the bit so
that was like we need to be silly and be unafraid because at the end of the day
we were playing bits of furniture and in the work that was the best bit yeah it
(06:05):
was like I mean in the workshop we I don't think they had established what
that vocabulary would be for the ensemble like they knew it was an
ensemble show they knew they wanted people around to kind of bring the story
to life of Nancy and Oliver's flat but the the way that they did that they
(06:26):
weren't quite sure so we were kind of really experimental and I remember we
had like different film genres that we like had to take and then I don't know
it would be like Six the musical in the style of an opera do you know I mean
like like being very like silly and playful too and to kind of get our guard
down and then that also happened when we did the production that then was in the
(06:50):
West End and I don't know I think that that leadership of that from the team
really infused into us and like and also just they are the best people like I
really like the creatives on this all of them like and Lucy and Toby and I think
(07:12):
that they they really care about it like so much and they care about the people
in front of them but they also like aren't precious you know they're happy
to have involvement from people or like ideas and I think that makes it a very
open environment and one that people can play in because it's not you know like
(07:34):
you need to do this you need to be this and like if you're not then it's a big
stress it's like well we're making a musical it's fun it is a lot of stress
and it is hard work but it's not you know I think they just have a really
good grasp. And there's a sort of thing about mess that I love about queer
productions that they're not you know they don't have to be too neat it
(07:56):
doesn't have to be the case that you know this person moves here and now you
have to find this spot on the floor and that. it feels like there's
something about being queer, I don't know whether this is true of everybody, I mean
I'm sure it isn't, but for me I love being in environments where everybody
gets to have their say and everyone that gets to suggest things and to make
(08:19):
things together. It's funny that you said about doing Six in the style of opera
because I haven't had many industry jobs but the first thing I had was with
Showstopper the improvised music. Oh I love Showstopper, where did you do that? In
the early days, very very early days I went up I was their pianist I went up to
the Edinburgh Fringe, I did the Hen and Chickens, the King's Head and
(08:42):
then once it got, I was a schoolteacher at the time, so once it's too big you
know I kind of handed it over to somebody who could actually play the
piano. Oh I'm sure you're brilliant. I loved that sort of playfulness and I
think also there's a thing that I've discovered with my own theatre company
when when improvisation is done by queer people it becomes very different. It's
(09:04):
not about being clever, it's not about being the funniest in the room, it's
about, there's something different that happens. yeah, sorts of situations so
that really inspires me that that's one of the things that you use. Yeah it definitely was
also Showstopper! I have seen a couple of times at the Edinburgh Fringe
(09:25):
because I'm from near Edinburgh so I love that you did that,
that's amazing. Yeah we're going back a very long time. This would be 2008, 2009.
Well it is amazing, I think it's so much fun and that you're right like that kind
of freedom and I think maybe I mean this might be going very deep dive but I think
(09:46):
with queer people because like the structure of life doesn't seem as
pre-planned maybe it's like the heteronormative ideal of you know I guess
you have a partner, you get a dog, you get a house, you get married, like and they're
all beautiful wonderful things if that's what you want, and plenty of queer people
do that too, but I think that the way that maybe I think also like creative
(10:11):
people and queer people like that kind of marriage, so it kind of that
combination of someone allows for a bit more of a free-spirited approach to life,
less structured more open and so therefore a bit more daring maybe, you
know. So I think that's absolutely and I think that's a really amazing kind of
(10:38):
thing which was definitely kind of instilled in Why Am I So Single? you
know. Yeah I mean it's funny, I talk a lot and I think I've spoken on the
podcast about this before about this idea of queer orientation or orienteering
as I like to call it, and the idea that this straight path or the heteronormative path that you've
mentioned is kind of the thing that's lit up in big lights. You see it
(11:00):
represented everywhere as you're growing up very much and so as queer people we're
often having to kind of find our own path. I always talk about it being like a
forest and finding your way from the middle of the forest out of the forest
and the straight paths all lit is in front of you but if you don't want to go
where that leads you, you have to find your own path. Going through the bushes, tangled and yeah
definitely that makes sense. Oh there's so many things we could talk about going through the bushes but we won't.
(11:24):
But yeah it's you know that that idea of trying to create new things and and also
I think the thing that I've been thinking more and more about is trying
to find ways to light those paths up for other people that might want to follow
them. Yeah I think that's like when you said that, you know the lit path and
(11:44):
then the one that's not so clear is I guess like all these explorations like
queer theatre or queer life just I guess being someone who's queer it can like
shine the torch a bit for someone who's coming behind you, do you know I mean and
I think that is really a beautiful thing to do, and sometimes with people I guess
(12:05):
that's unintentional, it's just them existing as who they are but most of
the time I think it is a conscious thing, because even if you're existing as an
openly queer person, maybe you're not so rigid in your gender expression, maybe
like that's a brave thing to do to leave the house and be that way or hold hands
with a certain person as you walk down the street, that's something that is
(12:29):
someone else might see that and see themselves in it, and so I think that
theatre is obviously a big expression of that because it's visible and it's art
and it's something that people are going to watch, whereas like but it can exist
in so many different facets of people's lives you know. Yeah I like that analogy
(12:50):
of the you know the straight path being very well lit and then everyone else
kind of having to, I guess, make their own. I find it really applies for musical
theatre as well and it's been one of the things I mean one of the reasons for
doing this research. yeah This series in particular is, I worry that there are so
(13:10):
many less queer musicals being produced than there were perhaps five years ago
yeah and I think they are still out there but they're not always in the
places you expect to find them. They're certainly at the moment not in the West
End, apart from Why Am I So Single? uh-huh and so that's why these these pieces are so
(13:31):
important and trying to find a way to keep these pieces alive for other people
who didn't get to see them in the theatre that that to me is really
important and so hopefully by us talking about things like Why Am I So Single and
perhaps a bit later But I'm A Cheerleader and these sorts of shows on
the podcast is that hopefully people will be inspired to go and find out more
about them. Definitely I think it's, obviously making shows as, I don't
(13:58):
claim to know exactly how all of that happens but obviously it
takes years and it's a lot of money and things like that and so I understand
it's difficult, and I guess people and want to sometimes put money on like a
safe bet in some ways, but I think the the inspiring thing and brave thing
about you know when certain you know producers and directors and creative
(14:22):
people in power can like put their power and presence into ideas that are gonna
maybe not at first speak to the masses but be important and and I think if you
look at TV and film obviously there's so many genres and so much output all the
time and but it's like it's quite obvious that people want nuance and they
(14:45):
want modern stories and they want and they want to showcase other like
experiences than just like you know the the ones that we've been told for years,
and so I think it's like oh that the audience is very much there for these
things it's just the like taking a risk to do it so yeah I hope that that can
(15:09):
happen more you know. Yeah absolutely.
If you're interested in LGBTQ+ representation in musical theatre check
out our website www.queermusicals.com for lots more information about
musicals with LGBTQ+ characters. So one of the things I loved about Why Am I
(15:35):
So Single was that the ensemble as well as having sort of characters that popped
in and out got to be furniture and I think that was a really joyous thing and also as one of the
swings you must have got to play most of the furniture. I think I did. I can't
remember exactly I think I did fridge, bin, plant, coat rack, lamp. I didn't do
(16:07):
curtain. Callum, Caitlin and did Ebony do curtain? I'm not sure if Ebony did curtain
but Callum and Caitlin they held the curtain strong when Jemima or Ran weren't
there. Yeah. They they curtained it up but did I do anything else? I don't think so
and I think I think they were the bits of furniture that I was which was
(16:29):
hilarious. The great thing as well about bits of furniture is that they are
non-gendered which means they can be played by anybody and that was one of
the things I loved about Why Am I So Single was that the swings got to go on
for you know pretty much whatever part you felt like. Yeah exactly. Well I think like it was
really I guess that is such a freeing thing because even like in the process
(16:54):
like like learning music for example Joe Beighton who was the musical supervisor
and then Chris Ma as well, who was MD, like the the parts were like split into one two
three four so it was rather than like soprano alto tenor bass and like that
just makes it so much straightaway like very non-gendered and so like things
(17:16):
like that were amazing and then when it was come to like deciding who was going
to cover which roles as a swing we had like priorities and I guess like our
vocal type maybe established those priorities or whatever which of course
that's like your anatomy might put you in certain places for certain characters
but also because this show had such freedom and silliness and like you know
(17:42):
we all played these kind of like guys from Grindr, we all played kind of sweet
boys who were trying to be flirty, you know, we all played these characters
regardless of our gender in the show so it meant that actually even those parts
which are gendered characters, they're kind of a pastiche or like, you know,
(18:05):
and so then and bits of furniture doesn't matter what gender you are, you
can bring your skills and yourself and your acting you know like playfulness to
it so I think that is something that I loved and something that I think is
really useful in the industry is you know like using people for their skills
and their ability and like as a swing you know I felt very much and Why Am I
(18:29):
So Single you know if we were doing a lot of different characters we could do
different accents or you know like so then therefore if like if I was singing
it versus if Caitlin was singing it we might be in different octaves but then
like the thing is like if me or Callum was singing it like yes we you know
might both have more similar voices anatomically but like Callum has
(18:52):
an amazing voice like range that is like probably able to go way higher than mine
so like you know just because we're like assigned the same gender and birth like
it doesn't mean that necessarily our voices will do exactly the same thing so
absolutely so therefore like it's just like oh you have swings these people who
are really hopefully like able to cover a lot of different bases let's use them
(19:16):
in the most useful and interesting way and so rather than okay it must be bound
by gender, you know and I think that was because of the way the show was
structured and stuff we could do that and it was yeah just I loved it, it was
very it was very fun to do to be all the different bits of furniture. And the
(19:39):
movement as well and the choreography that was that wasn't gendered either no it
was like an Ellen Kane, Queen Ellen Kane who I love, and like Michael Naylor as
well who's just the most like filled with sunshine like as a person they both
did the workshop, and then I'm also then Ebony came on as resident choreographer
(20:03):
who's she is just like the best, so funny, so great and so I'm like this like the
team choreographically I think it was just, it was like intense like I feel
like Ellen is so amazing with intention and why something is happening why
(20:24):
movement is happening and so really what informed that was the story, or how
we felt as a character rather than like being gendered you know cos
there really was no reason for it to be and also I guess the characters
were playing like a bin or a curtain you know you could be like I'm a very
(20:45):
masculine bin or you could be a feminine but you know you could be any type of
curtain, you could be like a big heavy drape that feels very like I am a masc
drape or you could be like I'm a chiffon curtain who feels very femme you know
like that's silly, but you know that that is we all ran around I remember
like in the in the rehearsal room and we were like okay right you're being you're
(21:09):
like a normal person walking around okay now you're like a number one curtain now
you're number 10 curtain like getting more curtain and like how would you move
it and like honestly the way that people like reacted to being bits furniture was
so funny and unique and so like yeah definitely we were, I think, encouraged to
be ourselves and to lean into like creativity rather than boys here girls here
(21:36):
you know. Did people, when they cast the ensemble as furniture did that
happen through the workshops? I am well in the workshop, like in the one that we
did in 2023, we I think we kind of swapped around a few times like we
obviously didn't have the costume so it was all like physicality I do remember
some people had things like Jemima was a magazine so she had a magazine, it
(21:58):
was like but I was a lamp and the workshop yeah but it kind of we played
with what they might be but I think it was a quicker process so it kind of
stuck as certain things and then when we came back to the actual next production
like some of those furniture ideas were like gone and new furniture ideas were
(22:18):
kind of instilled but I can't remember, maybe they did have conversations like
before of like who would be which piece of furniture but I can't really remember.
I don't think that was like casting 101 from it but I think it was like I think
maybe they saw what people were like and they were like oh yeah you'd be good at
that or yeah. You'd be an excellent bin. You'd be an excellent bin. Rhys was an amazing
(22:42):
bin do you know I mean like but the way that Rhys played the Bin or me or Callum
I think we were the three that did it like we all played it quite differently
so yeah I think that was fun I think I just think that's lovely that we're
having these kind of in-depth conversations about bins, about bins and
furniture but what on the one hand it's like gender identity queerness amazing
(23:05):
like deep conversation that it's like and I was a bin. Yeah do you know I mean
and that's what I feel like earlier is speaking about like the silliness but
combined with the vulnerability. I think those are kind of a perfect match. I was
thinking as well about the kind of moments of vulnerability and how much
how many moments that were in Why Am I So Single where I thought I don't know
(23:27):
that I've seen that part of me represented on stage before and you know.
What did you feel like? I mean the obvious one for me would be 'Disco Ball', yeah
which is very much how I see myself and I never thought that that would be
something that I'd see in musical theatre articulated in that way yeah but
then also I think I'm not dissimilar to to Oliver yeah as a character and there
(23:52):
were so many moments in that where I thought oh actually those are things I
haven't even thought about myself yeah now mm-hmm it kind of is like reflected
back to you and I think that makes like I think a lot of sense for me too is I
guess because there's not as much queer representation it's like it's harder to
see yourself reflected back so often so then when you see it, it's like actually
(24:15):
kind of hits home maybe a bit more poignantly because you really are like,
oh I've actually not seen that or I've not, like you said I've maybe not even
considered that that's me, but now I'm seeing it and oh my gosh that is me and
like 'Disco Ball' for me too, like I remember in the workshops being like
wow this is this feels different, it feels like I mean I think in the show
(24:42):
like the narrative of the show is it doesn't just come, it doesn't come out
of nowhere, it's so building the whole time to that point but then when it
happens you're like oh my gosh we're really going there, and I think as a
queer person like there was a there was a certain level of when we were dancing
(25:03):
around the Oliver character you had to disconnect by a certain point in
rehearsals and stuff you know you disconnected and you're like okay we are
our intention here is to support what's going on so we're like thinking this
person is amazing we want more and we want more and they're funny and they're
(25:25):
sparkly and we just want more and more and kind of we become savage with that
like that and desire and lust and kind of taking and taking from someone who's
giving so much, you know and so we were in that kind of frenzied state so when
you were doing it, you had a certain thing you were doing within your body
that felt like this revolving like energy inside you, which was crazy.
(25:50):
Sometimes you'd be doing it and you'd come off and you're back like that was
one that really was, I don't know if cathartic is the right word, but it was
like it felt like you kind of elevated ascended whatever yeah but I guess
alongside that, there's someone on a podium who's like breaking down and
shattering in front of you, and we are as the ensemble we are not privy to that we
(26:13):
are just expecting more of them and I think that is something that a lot of
queer people experience and they are the fun, funny person, the supportive
friend, the one who's you know masking maybe their vulnerability behind a big
personality and like not, that humor and everything is probably part of
(26:35):
who they are but there's also a lot of parts of them who of who they are that
are harder to speak about and so that they mask and then when it and then
it becomes too much and it's like oh I need to actually I'm actually breaking
(26:56):
now and I'm and then this is how I actually feel and I think that I'm you
know everyone who played Oliver - Jo, Jordan, Rhys, like you know really
were incredible to be able to do that to be able to push through that sort of
because even like I was speaking about obviously the ensemble around acting in
(27:21):
a certain way which is kind of aiding the story but also kind of disconnected
or I guess not empathetic to the character Oliver, but as a swing I
watched it a lot yes and so like I remember like honestly just would be in
floods would be sitting behind the desk like in runs and studio like
(27:45):
sobbing like or on the opening night I think it was maybe the first preview and
actually there was an issue with sound, so we needed to stop and then they
started again and the curtain came up and and honestly it was like we were on
I could feel the adrenaline pumping through my body I
was like it was so much to experience like even being a part of events and seeing
(28:12):
it on stage quite often. The last performance remember the swings we we
actually joined in a bit a couple of bits in the show, so like we did like the
opening of act two and the ending, which is really nice to be like on stage
with everyone on the final show, but we all were like let's run up and watch
'Disco Ball' for the last time and honestly it was like it was incredible
(28:38):
and I'm like to see that happening on stage and just be like feeling the
exhilaration of the kind of I don't even know but I just felt like so much was
happening inside my body watching this, and I think on the last show there was
like a standing ovation for like two minutes and like I was crying and I was
just like watching this number that I've watched so many times, I've been in so
(29:01):
many times but when you're in it especially as a swing you're like in
different positions, you're like right, where am I, what am I doing, whereas
watching it so I can imagine as an audience member watching it and just
being like arrested by that. Yeah, you know I saw it multiple times and every
time I can't really describe it was almost like there was anger inside
(29:25):
which is a very odd reaction to that, to a musical theatre song but there was
something about it there was something about it if recognizing something that
isn't fair. Yeah, I don't, I think that's like really natural like I guess I
probably felt it's like this I think that's really natural to feel it because
it's this I guess maybe anger frustration at the world that is making
(29:50):
someone feel like, that it's made me feel like that maybe, you know like I'm being
like, oh my gosh, it doesn't need to be this way but it is sadly that way a lot
of times and so you feel like I think it's one of those experiences I can't
really describe it very well, you're feeling so much but you kind of oh you
(30:10):
know you feel this like I am exhaustion almost at the end because you're like I
feel emotional, I feel vulnerable, I feel I'm sad, I feel angry, and that's just
watching it, do you know I mean? Like being like someone who played Oliver,
like they are so brave like all of them who did it, and like Toby and Lucy like
(30:36):
creating that numbers is brave and is and it's like what needs to be done, I
think, like more of that you know. If you want to follow us on social media you
can use queer.musicals on Instagram or Facebook or you can follow me at
(30:57):
drjameslovelock on Instagram. I think the other thing that occurred to me just
while you were talking there is thinking about the idea as well that in this show
the queer character is, I mean I think they even sing it, but the queer
(31:19):
character is the main character, the protagonist, rather than being the
sidekick. Yeah definitely. That's so unusual and I think there's something
really lovely you know about the way that Nancy is played and you know and
yes. It's a very very supportive role in that and you know really beautiful. Yeah
(31:42):
so I feel like the portrayals of that you know like Leesa,
Collette, Tash, like all of them like I had that and it was almost like you know the
like that was a fully fledged storyline as well for the Nancy, you know with
grief and loss and what that does to a person and like, but it also allowed the
(32:05):
queer character to be the main, the protagonist ,and I think and kind of a
lot like that character and the actors who played the character like allowed
for that space which I think is so, and even the creation of the character you
know it really I think is important to have that and I love being around that
(32:30):
and just you know having a queer character at the helm of something to
like tell their story and not be a side note or a kind of like oh and there's a
bit of queerness there for the you know for the audience for you know to tick a
box, to actually like delve into it you know which I think maybe is more, I don't
(32:54):
watch like a lot of plays, I would love to, but I'd but I feel like maybe in
plays or in like TV and film maybe is more explored but maybe in musical
theatre it isn't and. I think that's been the case. I mean, certainly there's, you
know, there was a good ten years where the only characters that you saw would
be cis white gay male, definitely yeah, and they'd come on, I wrote a book
(33:16):
chapter about it once, and I pointed out that there were three types of gay male
character in musical theatre at the time which was the drag queen, the drama
queen, and the dancing queen, yeah and the dancing queen is the one we're talking
about, which is the character that comes on does a number and then never gets
mentioned again, yeah. So many shows in the 2000s in the early 2010s
have that and yes you know, some, for some of you at least it was something
(33:40):
but also how lovely is it to have a show which explores a non-binary character in
that amount, oh my gosh absolutely, and like those characters you're kind
of speaking of feel like, for me, like I guess yes they are representing you know
queerness but it's in a very like distilled way that probably is for
(34:02):
entertainment purposes, not for queer people for straight people you know like
and whereas like this was in queer representation for queer people and like
of course for anyone to be able to like acknowledge and see and I guess learn
from or have empathy for, but it wasn't for heteronormative society just to be
(34:28):
like oh and there's a funny gay yeah you know absolutely absolutely I've spoken
about on the podcast before the problem of musical theatre being like an
adaptive genre primarily, so always adapting stories that already exist yeah,
and at the moment that tends to be films from 1980s 90s and 2000s yeah which are
(34:50):
not known for having many gay characters in, and in fact the gay characters that
are in them are as we've just discussed cis white men and tend to be in the
sidekick role and so what's happening at the moment on the West End is that we
don't, we have very limited representation and sometimes you know
there are shows that try and yeah the foreground a bit but we don't really
have shows about those characters but I was going to talk to you a little bit
(35:13):
about But I'm A Cheerleader which is an adaptive, yeah sure, but that does have a
queer character right in the centre and I'd love to know more about your
experience on that show because I think that's another show that's kind of a
queer-led or definitely,,, Like it was, I loved it , it was like such a whirlwind
(35:33):
going into it because I was a swing again and for that show but it had
already started so it was like maybe a month into the run but I think they were
having like quite a lot of like illness and things like that so they needed a
couple of swings for me and my friend Lauren and who I met on that job and we
went in and became swings on it and it was very fast turn around like, I don't
(35:57):
know how many days of rehearsal but not many, maybe a couple and then I was like
kind of on and I think I maybe played like two or three tracks but they all
had like a storyline so I feel like even it was you know like I guess it's like a
comedy I can't remember exactly when the film came out but it's about
(36:19):
conversion therapy camp and a girl who is cheerleader-popular all those kind of
and stereotypical things that you wouldn't assume would lead someone to be
gay. And so she's a lesbian but she gets sent to this camp basically and
that sounds very dark and it is like obviously like a very dark traumatic
(36:45):
thing but this story is so full of light and laughter as well because it's, you
know, a comedy and it has I think similar things maybe like we were talking about
Why Am I So Single is it has that contrast and that those two ideas can
exist at once and yeah I guess so like playing a swing was quite interesting on
(37:07):
it, because all of those characters had their own journey with queerness and you
know and so it was beautiful to watch all of those different characters and
also I think like I'm like in Why Am I So Single there's non-binary character
you know like in a lead which is so amazing and in But I'm A Cheerleader, it's
like queer women like which I think a lot of the time aren't represented
(37:32):
enough or like it's a very narrow idea of what that is, and I think your friend
Tania as well who's been on the podcast is amazing like brilliant, and like she
you know is a queer woman who is directing that as well so I think that's
really important and like to have someone who has experience or even if
(37:57):
they don't have experience like empathy and like understanding and education to
then like lead with like authenticity so I think that is was really nice about
But I'm A Cheerleader is that it has a lot of different stories it has queer
women at the forefront and it kind of brought together that poignant and also
(38:19):
like funny, like it is so funny it was really like it's kind of ridiculous the
way they convey a conversion therapy camp like. It's very Disneyfied, isn't it?
You know, all the boys are blue and girls are pink, it's done to a
really yeah stupid degree. Yeah yeah the music is well like it's so good and like
(38:40):
Alexzandra Sarmiento, who is a friend and she choreographed and she was just so like
like, her choreography as well, like kind of to signify those different groups
or like the way it was, so kind of they were trying to be like prim and proper
or like really masculine at points, or like the girls all had like who very
(39:01):
similar you know like vacuuming in time and stuff and you know like like kind of
like ridiculing I guess the idea of like straightness and heteronormativity like
oh really like are we really aiming for this? like yeah and yes it was great. I
think my abiding memory of that section will be Evie-Rose Lane who was
(39:22):
oh yeah so brilliant rocking a baby with oh my god yeah like the most bored
looking basic thunder yeah, it was so good oh my god, Evie is amazing. Like I
mean, there was so many songs and that like 'Wrestling', that song you know song
oh but Aaron sang it was like yeah there's a lovely recording of Telly Leung
(39:43):
singing that, because there's not actually loads of But I'm A
Cheerleader that's out there, yeah accessible, I think because of rights but yeah that
performance is there but there was there's so many moments. You were
talking about choreography and there was a dream ballet in that wasn't there? Oh
my gosh yes, and I loved that so much because it was, there was yeah and it was
(40:04):
like because I think the dream ballet kind of turned evil did it not? Like and
this is like my swing brain took so much information in and then after the show
is like, okay I need to go into another, but yeah I can remember those dream
ballet. There was like, because there was a bit we kind of all came on and it
(40:27):
was like, they were dreaming, like they were obviously having a dream and we were
these people moving, they had beds that we moved around, yes you know I guess
there's a whole like simulated kind of like sex thing as well with how like how
you have sex, and that's from the movie, yeah exactly a song which is quite
what it's so good and like yeah I'm like, I did the first, I know they did it
(40:50):
again but I did the first round time round and like Tiffany Graves did the
like, and she was just so like hilarious like with them like that kind of like
the evil matriarch of the you know like of the camp, and you will do this, and you
won't do that and you know. There's a wonderful song called 'Perfect Little
(41:14):
World' as well. yes A little bit sort of evil Mary Poppins. yeah very
vibe, definitely yeah it's a wonderful show. I mean the other song that I love
from it is and again it's a shame that it's not available anywhere else but as I
think it's called is it 'Whole New Me' and it's set in the bedroom at
night and it's all of these queer kids are singing about how they want to be
(41:37):
different and it's like it's a really heartbreaking song and it's it's set to
almost to a lullaby but again that moment was really powerful and again
something that I hadn't thought that I would see in musical theatre and they're
all alone. I think yeah I remember being like spaced out in there on the stage
(41:58):
and like they're all feeling so alone but they all have such a shared
experience that they kind of don't I guess acknowledge at the start and they
are, and yeah you don't expect to see that portrayed maybe yeah. It's funny, I
saw Fangirls, I never got to see it, is that has a similar moment where
(42:21):
they sing the song 'Disgusting' which yeah they're all in their own bedrooms all of
the ensemble yeah you know whether they're it's a kind of a queer-feminist
story and that's that's a lovely moment as well, and I think one of the
things that allowing queer people to kind of be in charge of their
storytelling is that you do get these nuanced moments. Definitely they come
(42:42):
unexpected because we all know what they are but we haven't necessarily had the
space to articulate them yet definitely and like the space to like see them
you know like I mean I feel lucky to be able to kind of have been in those shows
to be able to see them and also that be a part of experiencing them through being
(43:05):
a character and I guess that with that representation. I remember after show
one night on But I'm A Cheerleader, I think someone like put a little note under the
door which I was saying to you and someone read and it was from a trans
woman who had felt like represented on stage and I don't think in But I'm A Cheerleader
(43:29):
there's not like an explicit story, a story that's explicitly about
trans experience but I think that she was felt within the queerness, she felt
seen and acknowledged and like that in a way that she hadn't in theatre before
and so I think that is so it's kind of like heartbreaking and beautiful at the
(43:52):
same time because it's like, oh why is that not happened before, but also like
that's amazing that's happening now and so hopefully it can keep happening, you
know. This series of represent has been recorded at the Content is Queen studio
in Somerset House. Content is Queen is a podcast agency and community made up of
women, people of color and LGBTQIA+ people who wish to connect, create and
(44:16):
collaborate using audio and podcasting. For more information go to contentisqueen.org.
I was going to mention, I think I've mentioned this on the podcast
before, but there's a show that's been in workshop for quite some time called
Unicorn, which is a show about a trans woman and a trans woman's experience
it's kind of moving to a new city away from her family. It's beautiful and I
(44:38):
really hope that it gets picked up somewhere yeah because there's the other
thing that we've been talking about a little bit this series is that there's
quite a few shows with queer protagonists that are in workshop stages
yes and it's sometimes it's difficult for us to know where to look for them so
what I'm asking everybody this time is to tell us a little bit about a show
that they've workshopped that has a has queer protagonist, yeah a queer story in
(45:04):
it. Well I recently I was, I'm really happy to be a part of a show called Like
A Rat, which you're like, what's it gonna be about and it's directed by Molly
Stacey and Millie Foy who are both incredible at what they do and like
lovely people, and Molly was the associate director for Why Am I So Single?
(45:27):
so that's how I know her, but Rhys Wilkinson, who I'm giving everyone's full
names, but like you know, so everyone knows who they are, but Rhys is my
friend from Why Am I So Single as well, like and they are a choreographer
and so they were choreographing on it but couldn't be there for a lot
(45:50):
of it, so I was their associate, and so I did like the week of workshops and we
had like a couple of living room rehearsals like at my house because we
live quite near to each other, and it was like, I mean you'll understand when I
explain the story, but a lot of like we had towels and bags and like goggles and
rubber gloves it's that you know, basically it's a story about a
(46:15):
non-binary character called Billy who joins the women's swimming club at
Hampstead Heath at the ponds but they are non-binary and they meet these kind
of characters who are like all played by queer people, and so this story I
(46:36):
guess they make these relationships and they start to feel comfortable within
this group and then as the story progresses it kind of breaks down at
points because some of the people within the group want to make it
biologically female only space and so that then forces Billy to feel on the
outside and they have a conversation about that and all the different
(46:59):
characters, you know, have different opinions. I guess some are quite adamant
on what they think about sex and gender and some maybe are passively
accepting that more strident approach and so not being the best ally you know
like yeah it's kind of about that and about I guess gendered spaces and I mean
(47:24):
it was so much fun but Like A Rat, you can, you know it's funny and it's
amazing and like it was a kind of devised piece so they had some R&D days
where Molly and Millie wrote the the script from that and it was like,
yeah it was it was great and the music is beautiful as well so I think they've
(47:47):
done a workshop of it, we had like a week and they did like some showings I was
actually away for the showings, but then I think hopefully it'll have a life
after that at some point, so I definitely say watch out for that because it would
be because it's just them, yes I really I guess like it's quite a niche storyline
(48:11):
but actually has like but really sprawls out into more conversations you know
like Hampstead Heath ponds like not everyone might know about that but they
can definitely see through this story what what these conversations might be
be for like people with gendered spaces and I mean there's also like a camp
(48:33):
number called ladies of the lake which is the one with her and you know these
three characters of you know are showing Billy how they get in the lake and what
they are doing. We had to come up with how we might swim on land above the
surface obviously we're walking around in a rehearsal studio and actually
trying to create swimming or treading water, but yeah it was so much fun to do
(48:58):
that yeah, that's great, we'll definitely look out for Like A Rat and see how that
progresses. I've just got one more question for you, Owen, and that's what
would you like to see from musical theatre in the future? Well I think
there's a few things, but I think I'd love it to be accessible for people to
(49:19):
come and see theatre and in a way that I think the other mediums might be a bit
more accessible for people, and there's obviously people doing amazing work to
make make it happen but I think pricing for that musical theatre and
things like that there are things to help people but I think so it's more
widely available for people of different backgrounds, socioeconomic, so that it's
(49:43):
not just privileged you know people, or it can be something that if someone has
an interest they are able to to see that interest through and then that might
also encourage accessibility within people who take up as an interest and
pursue it and you know not just to witness it to actually be a part of it
(50:05):
because then I think that will change things from the inside out, and
definitely I feel like that is happening and you know there's people who have
really facilitated that and and I hope that that continues to happen because I
just think that if we can show different people within the industry then those
people, their voices will be heard and should be heard, you know to create
(50:29):
different stories. And I think that then leads on to another hope would be to
tell stories that are nuanced and interesting and representative of people
in the world we live in and I think that that obviously requires risk and bravery
but really it is just the world like, there is, you know, different people
(50:52):
existing in the world and I think I recently watched What It Feels Like To
Be A Girl, which is by Paris Lee based on her memoir and I just think
that was a brilliantly executed constructed crafted distillation of her
experiences maybe throughout growing up, and to watch that represent
(51:17):
her own story but also like reflect it back to people and in a UK setting which
maybe is more relatable for some people, or I recently watched Monroe Bergdorf's
documentary which was also incredibly nuanced and brilliant and with Jaz
Terry in it as well, and it was like it would be fantastic if those kind of
(51:41):
stories could be moved into maybe a musical theatre context and I don't know
how easy that is but I think hope for stories such as those to be moved into
musical theatre and also for playfulness, silliness and enjoyment, and to be like
selfishly, I would love to be in rooms that are full of people who are just
(52:06):
happy to be collaborative and engaged and generous and kind and I
think that as I would hope for more spaces within musical theatre that I
facilitate that because I think the people like completely are there, you
know, and if there's stories to be told and people to kind of come together to
(52:28):
tell those stories, they might have vulnerability and darkness and
difficulty in this in the character stories but also there will be light and
playfulness and in it too and how that's constructed so I would hope that you
know more the more different types of stories can be told and so yeah I think
(52:49):
those are a few things. Yeah that's great thank you so much and it's been lovely
to have you on today. Well thank you it's been lovely to chat to you. And thank you
everyone for listening and we'll see you soon, bye.
Thank you for listening to Represent, the queer musical theatre podcast. The
(53:10):
research for this series is funded by the British Academy Early Career
Researchers Network seed fund and supported by Sheffield Hallam
University. The episodes were recorded at the Content is Queen podcast studios at
the Makerversity at Somerset house. For more information go to contentisqueen.org.
Next week we are joined by Why Am I So Single alumni Joshian Angelo
(53:33):
Omaña and Finton Flynn who were both part of the UK tour of Everybody's
Talking About Jamie in 2024. See you then!
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