September 9, 2025 • 49 mins
Welcome to Represent, the queer musical theatre podcast.
My name is Dr James Lovelock, and I'm an academic and a huge musical theatre fan, exploring the representation of all things queer in the musical theatre industry.
This week we are talking to the genius writer that is Yve Blake, and the genius performer that is Mary Malone.
Mary appeared as Jules in Yve's musical Fangirls at the Lyric Hammersmith Theatre last year, and recently workshopped Yve's news show Mackenzie, which is a retelling of Macbeth as a child television star.
In this episode, we discuss female, queer, and trans representation in musical theatre, and explore how to make a welcoming creative space for queer performers.
As always, you can follow us on your favourite podcast platform, and don't forget to share this episode on social media.
Links
Yve's instagram
Mary's instagram
James Lovelock's instagram
Represent podcast instagram and website
New Work
Fangirls - website instagram Spotify Apple Music
A Transgender Woman On The Internet Crying - Spotify Apple Music
Mel and Sam (writers of Doof) - Podcast Tiktok
Gillian Cosgriff (writer of The Fig Tree) - instagram
piss/CARNATION - Instagram
Fox Hunt - Royal Court
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You're listening to Represent, the queer musical theatre podcast. My name is Dr.
(00:05):
James Lovelock and I'm an academic and a huge musical theatre fan, exploring the
representation of all things queer in the musical theatre industry.
This week we are talking to the genius writer that is Yve Blake and the genius
performer that is Mary Malone. Mary appeared as Jules in Yve's musical
Fangirls at the Lyric Hammersmith Theatre last year and recently workshopped Yve's
(00:28):
new show Mackenzie, which is a retelling of Macbeth as a child television star.
In this episode we discuss female, queer and trans representation in musical
theatre and explore how to make a welcoming creative space for queer
performers. As always you can follow us on your favourite podcast platform and
(00:49):
don't forget to share this episode on social media. Let's get started.
Hi my name is Yve Blake. I write for film, TV and theatre. I wrote a musical called
Fangirls and my pronouns are she/her. Hi I'm Mary Malone, my pronouns are she/her.
I am an actor, recently been in Fangirls the musical by Yve Blake. She really ate that!
(01:11):
And also recently been in a Netflix show called Missing You and Doctor Who.
Amazing, lovely. So we're going to start with the show that you worked on
together which is Fangirls. Yve, if you could tell us maybe a little bit about it
and then Mary, if you could tell us a little bit about how you got involved in
it as a starting point and we'll see where we go from there. Yeah okay so
(01:34):
Fangirls, would you believe, is a show I began writing in ancient times 2016 and
premiered in 2019 in Australia and then kind of had this wild life there where it
came back twice, it did a national tour, it went to the Opera House and then it
premiered in London at the Lyric Hammersmith but produced by Sonia
Friedman Productions, and Fangirls is about a 14 year old girl called Edna.
(01:58):
Now she has scored a scholarship to a very posh all-girls school and luckily
she's found her two best friends in the world but unluckily it's the first day
of year nine and things have changed right? They're like hey, you know people
in our year, they're getting kissed, they're getting boyfriends, they're
getting girlfriends, chop-chop we got to grow up okay? Then it's a new world order
(02:19):
and Edna is shamed for loving Harry. Harry is someone she's never met, Harry
is in the world's biggest boy band Heartbreak Nation and Edna just knows
that she and Harry share like a spiritual connection and she believes
this for many different reasons but her friends basically kind of tell her when
she comes back to schoo,l hey like we're too old to be interested in a boy band,
(02:42):
or specifically her friend Jules who's really kind of going through it and then
she's got a friend Brianna who's sadly a bit of a sheep to Jules and is very
conflict averse and doesn't really stick up for Edna. So Edna now is kind of
down two friends, her relationship with her single mom is really really
strained you know she's like a scholarship kid who doesn't have the
(03:02):
means that her friends have but she loves Harry and more importantly she
feels it's her destiny to save him because she feels she can see something
no one else can see, which is that Harry has depression eyes, okay, he's not doing
so well, it's kind of a free Britney situation. And then like an act of God,
Harry's band announced for the first ever time that they are going to tour to
(03:24):
Australia where she lives and she knows this is her one shot to save Harry. But
how is a scholarship kid with no money whatsoever gonna get to that concert, let
alone meet Harry, let alone save him? That's what Fangirls confronts and let's
just say that Edna is forced to take things to criminal lengths in order to
(03:44):
try to succeed in her quest. Oh, how did I go? Oh and it's feminist at the end, and it's kind of gay on the way through.
That's my favourite description of a musical - feminist at the end and gay on the way through. So Mary, tell us a little bit about how you got involved in Fangirls. Yeah so,
(04:07):
oh my gosh when did I audition for the workshop? Like I can't even think when. I
think it's 2022. 2022, which is it's actually mad how long like Fangirls has
been part of my life, I'm like, oh that's so long ago. Babe, try being me! Yeah and
(04:28):
the audition came about and I actually I knew about the musical already but I
kind of yeah I was up for auditioning but I didn't train in musical theater
and it's not like something I sort of ever did professionally, it's something I
did when I was younger. But yeah, I auditioned for the workshop and like was
(04:49):
just yeah really like surprised and excited that I got to play Jules
for that workshop Jules is Edna's meaner friend or the friend who's going through
it and who criticizes her and kind of becomes her adversary but Jules is also
hands down the funniest role in the show. oh yeah. So when we are casting the role,
we're the toughest on the people who have to play Jules and no one could no
(05:12):
one could eat it like Miss Mary! Bless you, thank you. Yeah I mean Jules was like
it's kind of like a dream role for me I grew up like wanting to be Sharpay Evans
in High School Musical. I remember having a poster of Sharpay on my wall as a kid
(05:33):
and I remember like my auntie, who like clearly had no idea about me, it was like
is that your girlfriend Mary? And I'm like no, that's me, that's who I'm gonna
be. So yeah, I guess like Jules was like kind of like, yeah she's got that like
you know, wannabe mean girl about her. Actually it's like super lovable or you
(05:54):
know yeah but with like a lot of flaws, but yeah so much fun, did the workshop
and was, I mean, it was just like the most incredible experience actually ever,
I felt so like held and celebrated through all of it and there was so much
room for me in the room ,and yeah just had the best time so then yeah when the
(06:18):
auditions came about for the production at Lyric Hammersmith obviously I was
like, I really want to do this, and then yeah, I was lucky enough to then then get
the part for the actual show. It was amazing to go through like a workshop
and then get to do it in the end you know, which doesn't always
happen, so yeah that was like a real blessing and that's kind of how it came
(06:39):
about. The role of Jules is just so lovely but I think there's something
very special that you bring to it, Mary, and I always remember particularly the
way you moved as that character. There's a lovely scene later on, I won't
spoil too much, but there is a scene where there was a boy tied to the bed and
Jules has to go and investigate, and there was just something that you did in
(07:06):
the way that you moved towards that character, and also I think it's
something that happened sort of all the way through the show as well, there's
a variety of walks that you... I agree with you, like it's also so special as a
writer because you agonize over a scene and making it funny enough and what you
have to play with is words on the page and you try to make it as funny as
you possibly can, and then you watch actors do it and you know all the words
(07:30):
so nothing's gonna be funny to you about the words. But then Mary Malone walks
across the stage with her eyes like dinner plates because she's like pissed
off or surprised and it was so fun in rehearsals I was just pissing. I felt
like I actually got to watch the show which as a writer. You don't ever get
that experience like an audience member does, right, because you already know it
you know what's gonna happen. But yeah Mary, sorry if this makes you
(07:53):
uncomfortable, but you gave me the opportunity to see my work in a whole
new way, diva! that's so sweet, oh my god yeah I remember like, well this
just shows you how amazing the room was that I really just felt like I got
to offer so much, you know, that maybe like wasn't you know... There was, I think
there was a moment where I may or may not have turned into a dinosaur from
(08:16):
Jurassic Park and you know I mean that wasn't that wasn't written down to
happen but there was just space in this room where I got to just really
play. I think that you know to see me like that, that's to see me feeling
really free and powerful and that I don't always get to feel like that, you
know, in this job, so yeah what a blessing. Oh my goodness, I'm just thinking
(08:40):
back to the absolute bonkers stuff. It was a really goofy room. It was such a
goofy room, like oh my gosh. I mean I'm just thinking about everyone and what's
fun, right, is like the show itself - I described the synopsis but like what I
was interested in discussing when I wrote the show is like I was inspired to
(09:00):
write the show in ancient times when Zayn Malik left the band One Direction
and it became a global news story, and I followed the coverage and was like hold
on, I keep on seeing in these articles in 2015 the fans of One Direction being
described with words like 'hysterical', 'insane', 'a psycho', 'over-the-top', 'too much',
'pathetic', and I asked myself if these journalists would reach for any of those
(09:23):
adjectives if they were describing like an upset that happened in men's sport
and they were just trying to describe sports fans. And so like the show
itself is like a big celebration of like the enthusiasms of girls, gays and theys,
and it's really a celebration of like
(09:43):
hyperactivity and just loving something without apology, and so and like all the
characters are like 14 and 15 and so it was really fun because in the room, our
extraordinary director Paige Rattray, you know like directors often will be like
okay what's the biggest version of this scene and then we'll tone it down, and I
feel like in Fangirls it's like, what's the biggest version of the scene and
then we'll just keep it like that. Yeah, I remember feeling that like that I was
(10:10):
like, where's the line? Like, oh my god. Like the limit does not exist! Oh Paige
yeah, absolutely incredible, yeah she's a pisser, we love her! Yeah I loved that
about Fangirls and I think the way I described it was camp, very very camp
and I'm sure that maybe not be the word that you used in the room but oh no
(10:32):
absolutely, like bingo, yeah ding ding ding, yeah loved it because there's
something about that that really makes it feel inclusive particularly to a
queer audience, I think, but also it's something that we often get told not to
do. We get told like you say to do less and I think having the space for
that in Fangirls is so important and was the thing that was so lovely about it.
(10:56):
So I mean, tell us a little bit more about the space in the room and what
made it such a great space to work in. One of the things I'm quite interested
in is whether there is a difference being in a room which is, I've used the
posh term 'queer-infused' as if it's a teabag, having a queer-infused space. Are
(11:17):
there differences being in that space where queer people are allowed to kind
of blossom and contribute? What makes that space, what makes those things
happen? Mm-hmm. I feel like Mary's best to speak to this because it's interesting,
Fangirls is the first musical I wrote. There's been so many iterations of it
and I've got other musicals I have written and have developed but Fangirls
(11:39):
is the only musical I've written that I've seen go all the way through to
production, and it has always been directed by Paige so I don't really know
another way other than filling the room with gay people because why would you do
anything else? It's scary to think of it not being like that, but Mary you
could speak to, you've had the experience of Fangirls and can contrast it against
(12:00):
other experiences I guess? Yeah, yeah. I guess just like there's just
like a real sense of celebration for like individuality. Like I'm even just
thinking about like the very first audition for the workshop and I think
like whenever we would walk in like one at a time for the like
solo call ever, I'm pretty sure that you, Paige and whoever else was there
(12:24):
applauded us as we walked in. There was such energy and like yeah, like you know,
I think it's like there's if you have the awareness that like a lot of spaces
don't feel safe for queer and trans people and it's tough for us in this
industry to feel like we stand a chance maybe, or that you know, that people want
(12:46):
to hire us so when there's that level of like celebration from the start you're
like okay okay, like that's a hurdle that you sort of get past straight
away. Yeah, and I think seeing you know and seeing other queer and trans people
like in the space is just a huge one. I've done so so many projects where it's
just me but I'm pretty sure like, I'm just thinking about like the cast of
(13:11):
Fangirls and I'm just like pretty sure we were all queer and trans actually. And also to be like, I don't think it says
anywhere in the script necessarily about like Jules's identity or but it's
it's a show that like can hold like everyone or whoever is going to step
into that role, and sometimes of course I think like trans-specific
(13:35):
stories are important but there's something about like being trusted with
work that's not just about your transness, that's like really liberating
and exciting. And yeah, Fangirls was definitely that for me and I think that
there was just like a real, there was a lot of space held where you
could you could talk about anything in the room and if anything was bothering
(13:58):
you, and that was for everything, it wasn't just about like, you know, I
don't know, maybe my specific experience, but I felt like I nothing ever could
turn into anything big or messy because I was able to talk about everything I
thought and felt from from the start. And that included, I guess, lots of things
like maybe like certain thoughts about the character or a big one for me was
(14:22):
singing and keys and you know, I guess like a lot of musicals aren't
written in a key that's maybe accessible for trans women but Fangirls was
kind of so flexible for me and everyone really just came together and just
wanted to make it work, I think I remember you saying, Yve, just like, we
(14:42):
just want you to put this key where it's where it feels really yummy for you and
I was just like, that's such a nice way to say it, like yeah and for me like, you
know, it's not necessarily all about like how it's gonna sound for everyone else,
like where do I feel good and confident in my voice instead of like pushing me
somewhere uncomfortable so yeah that was like that really changed it for
(15:06):
me, that really made me feel better because I'm not necessarily the most
confident singer or or have like loads of training, but yeah I felt really held in that.
If you're interested in LGBTQ+ representation in musical theatre,
check out our website www.queermusicals.com for lots more information about
(15:27):
musicals with LGBTQ+ characters
It's so gorgeous though, your singing work in that show and the way
that it's all fitted together, I loved it. So a theme that's come up a lot in this
series of the podcast is about writers being flexible about changing keys of
(15:49):
songs. How difficult is it to...? Not that difficult!
So easy, oh my gosh! Like I feel very strongly about this because it's
interesting, I through writing Fangirls have made so many friends in the musical
theater community, lots of whom are femme actors who let's say, you know, they're
(16:10):
auditioning for Glinda. I hear reports about like okay, well, maybe you
can't be over x height to play that role and you have to be
able to hit this note, and you have to be able to do it eight times a week and
like I just can't imagine what it's like if you're someone who could bring so
much charisma to a role but there's such a cookie cutter because the show is a
(16:31):
product, you know. It becomes inflexible if it's this globally exported idea and
I just think that's so it's kind of dangerous, right, because then you'll have
you will have all of these graduates, these femme graduates who are like, you
know, like those days and days who are like, oh fuck well the majority musical
theatre class... Musical theatre has been written by men and they have made women
(16:51):
sing as high as they want because isn't it so fun when they hit these big high
notes? That's such a narrow way that maybe young femmie grads feel that they
can express themselves or feel that they have to like... I just can't
imagine the insecurity that an alto would feel knowing that most of like the
leading parts in musical theater maybe aren't for her, and I just go and and why
(17:14):
I want to see what everyone can can bring to a role and I think that's that's
so exciting. You know like what Mary brought to Jules was extraordinary, which
is evident from the fact that we put her in the workshop and then we're like
we obviously need her to do the full thing, and it's also... I mean, I guess
(17:34):
I don't know, this work is about teenage girls, right, and teenage girls can be so
many millions of things, it would just feel so like corrupt and weird to be
narrow and be like, no, this one has to sound like this and has to...
It's been a joy with every production we have done of this. I've seen five cast do
this show and with every production to kind of go, oh, what's your Jules? what's
(17:56):
your Brianna? what's your Edna? you know what I mean? So I don't know and it
really isn't that hard. I think where people that the arguments that people
make are about like the harmonies, you know if you change the lead line ,what
does that do to all the harmonies? Write some fucking new harmonies! Do you know
what I mean? I really don't think in my experience, it
hasn't been a burden, it has only been joyful and I just hope that like
(18:20):
everyone kind of gets with that program. We were talking to Robyn Grant who wrote
Unfortunate the Untold Story of Ursula the Sea Witch, the musical parody which
is amazing and is on in Salford over Christmas this year. And is Ursula gay?
Ursula is very gay. Important. I guess Ursula is very queer is probably the
(18:42):
better way to put it, but actually we had River Medway on the
podcast and they played Ariel which was amazing casting, and they were saying
that they changed the keys, you know, every time and they changed the harmonies
every time they rewrite the show, they put on a new production of the show and
it just seems that's so joyful to be able to do that with shows. And the
(19:05):
other thing I was thinking is how beautiful the song 'Disgusting' was
because of the specific vocal timbres that you'd written for and the way that
you'd written the harmonies in that song, and we got all the very different timbres
of the girls singing it and, you know, and then as the rest of the cast
joined in and it's such a beautiful song and there's so many of those moments in
(19:30):
in Fangirls as well. It's funny you bring up that song. So for the context of the
listeners, there is a song in Fangirls called 'Disgusting' and like where the
chorus arrives is three teenage girls separately in their bedroom and they're
talking about how privately they worry that, actually like there's a line in it,
'Will I ever get to stop just pretending to feel hot? What if this is it?' and just
(19:50):
the idea of looking yourself in the mirror and being like, what if I'm
actually disgusting and it's never gonna get any better. I'm never gonna grow
tits and what have you, like all of the insecurities that are sold to like young
girls, gays and theys, and I'm really proud of that song because I think when I sat
down to write it, I was like okay, so a theatre audience is guaranteed, like most
people who reliably buy tickets to theatre are people over the age of 50 60 70
(20:15):
and there's gonna be lots of, you know, my dad when I started writing this was like
a 70 year old man and I was like, if I start a song and it's like, 'Sometimes I
worry that my body isn't right', I feel like he would lean back, switch off
and go, yeah this is the issue song where the girls talk about how they hate
themselves, I know, I know. And so in constructing that song, actually each
verse opens kind of with like a joke and it's a song that gets the
(20:39):
audience laughing and then punches them in the gut, and I always find it's really
fun to watch actors do that song because it gets the audience laughing and then
they realize what the song's about and it's really fun watching actors play
with that. But also, you know you were just talking about harmonies and someone
who deserves a massive shout out is our exquisite musical supervisor Zara
(21:00):
Stanton. Yeah we love Zara! Cos she worked on the show in Australia and was so
extraordinary, works so quickly and is equally like excited about this point
that we just made, which is like just change the key, and so she's kind
like so excited by it and she took time with every single person in the
(21:20):
cast to find the right key. And like a great example is Terique Jarrett, who
played SaltyPringl, who is cis but has a beautiful voice that lives
somewhere totally different to anyone else who's played that role. Everyone
else who has played that role had this kind of like tenor voice with this falsetto kind
of functionality, whereas Terique's yummy place was much lower. I can't remember how
(21:41):
many semitones we brought the song down. I want to say like five semitones and it
was gorgeous and it was just a different world. And like the last
thing that I want to do to a performer, particularly, you know, a queer performer
is make them feel like they're in an outfit that doesn't fit them and that
they, you know, that they have to contort themselves in some way to be the right
thing, that's just not it. Yeah it's great that you brought up Terique and SaltyPringl
(22:06):
who is just such a wonderful character and I think, I mean, I was going
to say actually for those of us that are queer is perhaps one of our gateways
into the show, but actually in the cast that did the Lyric Hammersmith show
there were so many places. I mean I would I would say I really connected with Max
James Hodge in the ensemble because that's the sort of kid that I was when I
(22:29):
was growing up, but yes, SaltyPringl is such an important part of the show and I
wonder if you can tell us a little bit about how that character works and maybe
also, Mary, a little bit about how you kind of, I mean, you didn't have scenes
with that character but how that worked in terms of having that queer character
in the story. Mm-hmm, oh my gosh, so Salty. I want to explain to listeners like
(22:51):
who SaltyPringl is and then I want to talk about honestly how like fun and
challenging it was writing that part, because Edna is our protagonist and she
is a passionate and talented fanfic writer. She writes fanfiction about Harry
and his depression and her fanfic series in particular is about a fan
setting Harry free and then living on the run together so that he's
(23:14):
free from the trappings of fame, and she runs away from her life and they live
happily ever after. And she makes a friend online named SaltyPringl who's
a very passionate talented queer fanfiction author who lives in the
States, and when Edna needs to kind of cook up a plan for how she might
truly meet Harry in real life, she pitches to SaltyPringl that what if
(23:36):
she wrote a fanfic, you know, where a teenage girl finds a way to meet Harry
and on the basis of plotting a fanfic, Salty provides incredible insight into
how maybe someone could do it. And Salty of course thinks that this is like a
fanfic they're co-writing, whereas Edna, we realize, has intent to use this as a
blueprint. But it's really interesting, right, because Salty
(23:57):
says a lot of lines that are really important to me in the show. Like there's
a moment where Salty suggests that Edna - this is gonna sound so sick out of
context - that that the protagonist of their story pretends to have a terminal
illness so she is picked to be a girl that's brought on stage and serenaded to
at the concert, because that's a part of every concert, and Salty makes a point
that like they never pick boys to sing to but if your character is, if your
(24:20):
protagonist is a girl, she has a shot, and Salty kind of points out a few
things about the fact that like, you know what I mean, like the the fact that
if you're a little boy who loves say, One Direction, you're never gonna get a
pronoun like a he/him pronoun in one of their songs and just kind of
looking at like heteronormativity in the world. All to say, SaltyPringl is a
really important character to me but let's look at him like, or them, like
(24:45):
there's no specific pronouns for Salty in the script, it's like whatever but
Salty also assists the protagonist, right, and so it's really interesting because
this character is a queer character who really matters to me but if you've ever
written a musical, you know that what you end up cutting more than anything other is
scenes. It's like, let's get to another song, let's get to another song. So how
then do you keep a character full-bodied and dimensional when really the key
(25:10):
thing they must do is assist your protagonist in her journey, and yet you
also don't want to write a gay assistant, you know what I mean? You also don't want
to write someone who is a plot device and who's a magical queer character who
just comes to help a girl who's going after a guy. Now how does Edna identify? I
don't know if she knows but she's 14 and she wants to save a man so that's what
she's up to for these two and a half hours. And yeah, it's like Salty has been
(25:33):
really interesting to write. It's also interesting that in every cast, Salty's
been played by a black person and so it's like, okay, well, I also don't want to
make like a magical assistant... So I'm really lucky in that like, I know what my
intentions are with Salty and I've been able to collaborate with every performer
who's played that role to figure out how like, you know, what he means, how
(25:54):
Salty can be like a constructive queer character and not accidentally
fall into a trope that I never set out to construct. And what Salty also does I
should say, apart from assist Edna, is like represent, like Salty has always had
this song in the show called 'Feels So True' about about the fact that when
Salty is writing fanfic about Harry, like "who cares if it's a daydream, baby, it
(26:20):
feels so true" is the lyric, and it's the idea of like... how do I even put this? Like
you know, your right to kind of construct your own safe space where you are valued
and what are the lyrics of this song? 'When this world is messy and cruel I'll
build one that's better, I'll go there with you where we could be anyone we want
to be, feels more real than reality, don't care if it's a daydream, baby, it feels so
(26:41):
true". And it's about, you know, it's about the right for teenagers to imagine like
a bit of space for themselves. It's funny because I literally had those
lyrics in my head just as you said them just then, and for me that is totally
what the internet is for girls, gays and theys, and it's such a perfect song for
(27:02):
that, and I think when we're looking at the possibility of Salty being seen as
you know the gay best friend or a black best friend or however it might be,
actually it's those moments, and there's another lovely moment that I picked out
as well where Salty talks about his parentally assigned name, and it's
those moments that take that character from being out of that trope because the
(27:25):
problem with that trope is that you can't imagine them doing anything else.
With Salty, you can imagine their whole home life and their whole other
story and there's a whole other musical to be written about Salty. There really
is. Oh, that's a relief. Yeah, and that's what I love especially about that but
it's also, I think, I mean we can come on to the character Brianna as well, but I
think Salty is predominantly like the first explicit queer character that
(27:50):
we see in the show, and I guess there's something really important, Mary, about
kind of having that queerness up front in a show that that's being performed, I
suppose. For sure. Yeah, oh so trans coded with Salty! It's so true as well, it's so
like... Oh, it just speaks to me so much and also about being like a young
(28:14):
person, a young trans person online and like finding my people, yeah. Yeah, what
an incredible song. Yeah, I think it's really interesting having a character
like Salty that's like, you know, maybe like more explicitly a queer character
(28:37):
but then, like, and then what happens when you then make other characters queer or
played by queer actors and I'm just like, oh, that's such a great thing that
doesn't happen enough is that there's opportunity for like more than one of us.
Like I really enjoyed playing Jules because like that's such a
(28:59):
different character to Salty like completely like, maybe someone who like
is so hidden in so many ways or trying to like conform in so many ways
or trying to like get through, you know, being at school and being a
teenage girl like, oh my gosh, what a tricky thing. That's true and it
should be said to the listeners, Jules' like number one mission the whole show
(29:22):
is that she has to get a boyfriend, everyone in the year is getting a
boyfriend and she needs to get one and she has this toxic line to Brianna who's
gay, like 'it's easier for you, there's girls everywhere, we go to an all-girls
school, I have to outsource, I have to find boys in the wild!' She's like
toxicly het. It was so fun and I love to do that. So fun and I'm also like
(29:42):
sometimes the trans girls are like that! Like do you know what I mean? Like
just to say like we're like... and I love to do that, like to represent trans people
as like messy people who say some crazy shit sometimes which is great, but also
like so relatable. Like as a doll as well, like of course like winning that like
approval and needing a boyfriend and needing to be like the other girls which
(30:05):
is like such a great layer that comes from casting trans people in non-specific
parts, right, because we can add like a whole layer of story and depth. But yeah,
I think I always thought it did hit me doing the show I was like, oh it's so sad
that Jules doesn't get to meet Salty cuz I'm also just like, oh my gosh, she really
could do with Salty in her life, you know. I mean to Terique and I, we used
(30:31):
to like play with that, I think that that was quite fun and yeah. Yeah, so cute. The
other person I spoke to who's actually going to be in the next episode of this
series is Gracie McGonigal who played Lily, and she said that her and Terique had
a thing where they were, kind of between them, were the internet, different sides
(30:52):
of the internet. Yeah, that's true. And I think it's really lovely how in a show
like Fangirls even over quite a short run, you can get those sort of
relationships between ensemble characters between different characters
and these whole untold stories that happen in the background of shows, which
I know happen in all sorts of other long-running shows as well, but you know,
I love the fact that there's all that space for the ensemble, you know and
(31:16):
the ensemble often gets a multi-role, you know, they play across gender so you
know, sometimes you'll have, you know, well everybody on the stage will be female or
then you have the lovely scene with at the beginning of act two in the
concert where the whole boy band other than Harry are played by usually by
female or non-binary performers, which it's just so important because we're
(31:41):
very used to you know there being scenes where male actors are playing female
characters and it's usually done in a not particularly nice way for laughs, but
actually by having that flexibility across the whole cast, it means that it
literally is gender play. I really agree with that and I really feel like, yeah,
I've got lots of feedback on that over the years of people, yeah, people just
(32:04):
commenting on noticing that and the way that yet gender became like so fluid
across the multi-rolling. And it's funny, it's something that never occurred to me
but we get lots of feedback on from people being like, wow ,and I'm like, oh,
like it's funny when people describe this work as being radical in one way or
another because it's like it's more disappointing. It's like, oh,
(32:26):
I don't want to be applauded for this being an outlier, you know what I
mean I just want this to be the norm. If you want to follow us on social media,
you can use queer.musicals on Instagram or Facebook or you can follow
me at drjameslovelock on Instagram.
(32:53):
So Fangirls is just one of my favourite things that I've seen, I think that I've
seen ever, I just love it so much! James, that means so much. But I talk about it
all the time and I share it with my students and I hope that it has, you know,
future life in all sorts of different ways, but I'd also like to talk to you a
little bit about your other project that you've just been recently working on
(33:17):
which is Mackenzie, which I think you've just workshopped in Australia and
in London as well. Oh my gosh, I would love to talk about Mackenzie. You know,
it's amazing, so like Fangirls going on in the UK was huge. It's like the
hardest I have ever worked and afterwards I was so fried and I was like,
I'm just gonna do a writing exercise for fun and I'm gonna write something that
(33:38):
isn't for anything, it is just for the point of making me laugh. And I came up
with this premise which is like, what if Macbeth was a 13 year old child star and
what if Lady Macbeth was her ruthless stage mom, and what if I set this story
behind the scenes of a popular kids channel that I cannot name that was very
popular in 2006 in America, and what if I I said it in 2006? And it was really fun,
(34:04):
I put it in this like really nostalgic time I remember so well, Shakespeare had
already done the structure, like it was the biggest pleasure to write this. And
then I announced a reading in my hometown of Melbourne, I mean I'm moving
to London, but I like you know, living there now with all my friends reading
the roles, and the reading sold out like in half an hour thanks to like people
(34:25):
who love Fangirls, and so I was like great I don't have to market the reading,
easy, I'm just gonna use this as sort of accountability. But then all these
producers reached out and they said, bitch, what do you mean you have a
Macbeth adaptation? Do you know how many kids have to study Macbeth? Do you know
how many people we could sell tickets to? And so I accidentally, I guess, made this
(34:46):
thing that to so many people had a commercial potential because I'm
now realizing like a lot of a lot of students have to study Macbeth,
and a retelling of it that's like a bit yassified and a bit cunty, sorry about the
C word, but like, I didn't realize there was a market for it so it's ironic that
the thing that I made to take a break from like the oppressive commercialness
(35:09):
of theatre and constantly trying to figure out what would succeed in the
market and have high market potential, like it's ironic that I made this thing
to go, I don't want to think about that for a second, and then I've literally
just never had more interest in a project. Everyone's like, do you know how
many high schools we can get along to this? So I hope it goes well, I hope it
like lives up to their expectations but yeah it's gonna kick off next year in
(35:30):
Australia at a company I can't name, and then it is it looks like it's gonna tour
which is exciting. Amazing, yeah, that's great, and Mary, tell us a little bit
about the workshop and your involvement in that. She ate that! Who you played and
all that sort of thing. Oh gosh, I just had the best time. I mean I'm always
gonna be up for doing anything with this one, for sure. Oh my god, it was so good, it
(35:53):
was like a gorgeous room and amazing cast. Oh yeah, we had Dylan Mulvaney in
the lead, gorgeous. Sorr,y I'm totally interrupting you but gorgeous scene
where you played like, I guess, sort of her best, her momentary best friend. Mm-hmm,
that was really special. Oh my god, that was so fun. It was, yeah, oh it's so nice
like doing scenes with Dylan. I mean she's incredible, Yeah, so gorgeous. It was,
(36:19):
yeah, it was such a good time, and it was, you know, we didn't have long, it was for
a read. We like got it together real quick. We were rehearsing five hours. Five
hours! Which is, yeah, insane, but like yeah, you know, there's just like a lot of fun
in the room and we were just there to do it, and we all just like stepped up
and did that. I love to do like things like this. That way you don't really have
(36:41):
so much time to think and you've really just got to like go for it. Yeah, that's
spontaneity, it was really fun. You were going to say? No, I was just gonna say, I'm
am thinking about what the listeners need to know and it's like, well, that
there's a cast of six who play 21 characters so I don't know how many
people you play? Oh my gosh, I mea,n oh my god, a fair few. And it was just us reading it at
(37:03):
music stands for, you know, potential producers and stakeholders and whatever.
But yeah, it was really fun, I'm excited for it and you know
what it's funny, because my friend came along and she was like, huh, like yet
again, such a queer cast, and the story not explicitly a queer story,
kind of just like, you know, the story of Mackenzie's the story of
(37:27):
Macbeth, and it's a story of ambition, and it's also in this iteration, it's a, I
mean in Macbeth, Lady Macbeth has to borrow Macbeth's power because she's a
woman, and masculinity is your route to power, like the fact that he's a
man gives him access to power, and in this retelling what gives Mackenzie her
route to power is she is young, right, and that is power, and Ruth cannot access
(37:48):
that power because, so Ruth is Mackenzie's mom, you know, because she's,
in her own words, 'past it' and so like it's interesting, it's a story about
ambition and age, but yet again, hello, we're not gonna do it unless it's so gay,
in its essence, oh and there's also a,
like Macduff is now a butch lesbian. Hooray! Hooray! And I don't, I can't give
(38:11):
away like the big twist in the end, but it will be having to do with something
very queer. It's so good. That's excellent. I'm really looking forward to seeing
what happens with that next. And it's a play isn't it? A play with songs? Yes, oh
my gosh it's so nice. Fangirls was 25 songs, two and a half hours, two acts, and
(38:34):
this diva, this is a play with songs, three of them are sung out loud by one
person, the rest are fake can't say the word channel songs that I have written
that just exist in the background, and it's so nice. It's so like lightweight
and six people and not that I don't love musicals, I love them, but it's oh
(38:55):
it's such a heavy lift getting a musical made. You know like this is my 10th year
of having Fangirls in my life, and there's, like it's still climbing and
reaching new heights, but Mackenzie - I wrote that girl and I got her booked and
I've just never seen anything happen so fast. I'm like, this is what
happens when you don't need dance mirrors, when you don't need like a
(39:16):
choreographer and radio mics for each actor. It's been a nice holiday to get to
write a play and not a musical. I love musicals, I always will but it's been a
nice vacation to get to write something that's 90 minutes, six songs, like only
one singer - it's like a treat, you know what I mean, a holiday. This series of
Represent has been recorded at the Content is Queen studio in Somerset
(39:38):
House. Content is Queen is a podcast agency and community made up of women
people of color and LGBTQIA+ people who wish to connect create and
collaborate using audio and podcasting, For more information, go to contentisqueen.org.
So Mary, you've been very busy over the last few years, and I have got
(39:59):
quite a lot of people who listen to this podcast who are also Doctor Who fans. Oh,
hello! I feel I must ask you about the experience of working in Doctor Who and
again, working specifically playing a trans character, I think, yeah.
Obviously working with, you know, Ncuti Gatwa and Millie Gibson and all
of that. How did that come about and how was that experience for you? Oh yeah, that
(40:22):
was such an amazing opportunity. Yeah, I remember the the tape came along and
it's like, yeah, of course, like always dreamed of being in Doctor Who. The part,
yeah, and it was a, yeah, a trans specific part but also like nothing about her
being trans. I mean Russell is just like so amazing and like has always been
(40:47):
someone who's trying to champion queer and trans people and like, get us,
you know, on the telly in front of people, so yeah like, I was so happy
to be working with Russell and like, yeah, it was amazing. Like I think I had one
(41:09):
scene at the start and then we start filming, and then Russell sort of like
put some more in for me, and it's like that was really, yeah, really nice,
and yeah I'm so happy that I know him now. Yeah he was just incredible and very
personable and very yeah, very nice. Working on Doctor Who was great. I mean,
(41:30):
it was just like so fun and chill and again, just like, yeah, so queer. I mean
like, you know, Ncuti's there, it's like, you know it's like, coo,l I'm gonna be
good here. And yeah, I just had the most fun time and also like the Doctor Who
fans are incredible and amazing and so very queer and trans. So yeah, yeah,
(41:52):
what an honour to be part of that world for sure. Yeah, no, it was lovely and I
really appreciated seeing you in that as well, and yeah I think it's so important
that we see more trans roles in television as well as in film
and theatre. I mean, I'm just so like moved by the idea of thinking of young
trans people, trans women specifically like on Christmas Day, sat with their
(42:18):
families who may or may not be supportive and seeing like within one of
the first scenes as a trans woman singing in a bar. I just think like,
yeah, like if I saw that when I was younger that would have really empowered
me and stayed with me and yeah, yeah, I'm moved thinking about that and like what
effect that can have especially around Christmas. I mean like that can be
(42:41):
such a hard time for queer people yeah, so yeah yeah, really an honour. I've got
one more question for you which I've asked to everybody that's been on the
podcast this series, and we've talked quite a bit about workshops today and
I'm interested in the process of getting things from workshop onto whatever the
(43:02):
next stage might be, and one of the things I'm trying to do to help that is
to get people to talk about workshops that they've been involved with or
workshops that they've seen of shows that they would really like to see move
on to the next step. Spotlighting work in development, we know,
yeah. Yeah, and hopefully then people will be able to find something to listen to
about it or find something to read about it, and then when it comes up next time
(43:26):
those people will be able to go, yes, I've heard about this, Mary said this was
great, or Yve said this was great and then we'll be able to look for it. So we
already know that there's a little play called Mackenzie that's been worked on
recently that apparently was all right, but are there other things that you've
been involved with workshopping or other things that you've seen that you
(43:47):
would really like to see? I can name three and they're all Australian.
You know about these, it's a bit niche, you know, you're kind of gonna be not like
other girls, you're gonna be like knowing these Australian works. So one of them is
by this gorgeous trans girly Cassie Hamilton and she has written a musical
called A Transgender Woman On The Internet Crying and the score is like
(44:09):
this incredible hyper-pop score. Cassie produces her own music and the score is
just, it's like no piece of musical theater you have ever heard or seen. You
can find the EP, she's released the EP on Spotify, it's unbelievable and it's had
so many workshops and had such a huge response in Australia, I'm sure it's on
the edge of a production and yet you know as we know, musicals are expensive
(44:30):
and it's very very hard to to land the plane on getting a production. And
the other two I want to point out, there's a musical comedy duo in
Australia called Mel and Sam and they're super successful in Australia but they
are both theatre kids and they have scored a grant to write a musical that's
called Doof and the premise is incredible. It's like five lesbians who
(44:50):
go to a music festival every year, and then you discover that this year
what's different is they've come to scatter the ashes of their friend who
should be there with them who's come every year, which I just, it's such a
beautiful premise. So they are developing that and the early songs
they've shared from that are just... Their brains work at the speed of light and
lyrically, they are so juicy and exciting and there's so much plot in the songs
(45:14):
and that's brilliant. And the final one I want to shout out is a musical called
Fig Tree which is inspired by, you know, the idea of the fig tree that Sylvia
Plath talks about in The Bell Jar, and all the lives we could be living. And
it's written by a woman called Jillian Cosgriff and it's like a beautiful
four-hander chamber musical about this couple who are deeply in love and decide
okay, well maybe it is time to have a baby, but before they do they decide
(45:37):
they're gonna have a fidelity room spring up. For six weeks, they're gonna
live separately and have as many affairs as they want, and it's this moment where
each of them are kind of looking at the fact that like, wow, there's a thousand
lives I could be living. And yeah, that that tension between spontaneity and
stability, what do you choose? And things get kind of magical in this really
(45:57):
exciting way, that's all I'll say. Yeah that sounds great. Yeah, definitely look
out for all of those shows and I'll put links to them on the podcast as well.
What about you, Mary? OK, some things that I've been really excited about. I
(46:18):
guess first I want to shout out to piss/CARNATION, which is an amazing yeah
duo of trans women who make theatre and experimental theatre and they
just finished a run of their show Ugly Sisters at Soho Theatre which I think
was just incredible. I was, yeah, so taken back by it. I don't think I've ever seen
(46:43):
a show with two trans women who also made it doing something so brave as
that. It's an incredible show about Germaine Greer and her
relationship, her encounter with a trans woman, slash relationship as well, yeah,
it's a whole sort of fantastic or like daydreamy sort of amazing show exploring
(47:07):
that and they're both incredible and I know that they're up to like new work
together, separately, writing, making, so I just think we should all keep an
eye on those girls cuz I think they're incredible. The other thing that I'm
really excited about is I just actually came off of a job at the Royal Court, it
was a showcase for the Young Playwrights Award and I got to read an amazing new
(47:33):
play called Fox Hunt by George McAree which, oh my gosh, it was incredible.
George is a 16 year old trans woman and it is one of the most incredible things
I've ever read by a trans person or by anyone about trans-specific issues.
(47:54):
It's about lots of things, but it's about, it's specifically about the
Supreme Court ruling, which is very recent. I was kind of gagged to open it
and be like, oh ,she's on it, well shit. And yeah, she just did such a good job. It's
such a beautiful and clever piece and I know that George is up to lots more and
(48:19):
and making new work and also performing, and yeah I'm just so excited for her and
what she's gonna go on to do. Yeah brilliant, yeah absolutely great. So
hopefully you know all of these things will be things that we can support and
we can, you know, look out for and see what happens with them next. It's been so
lovely talking to you both today. Thank you so much for being here on the
(48:41):
podcast. Oh thank you! And thank you everybody for listening at home as well
and I will see you all soon. Thank you, bye!
Thank you for listening to Represent, the queer musical theatre podcast. The
research for this series is funded by the British Academy Early Career
Researchers Network Seed Fund and supported by Sheffield Hallam
(49:03):
University. The episodes were recorded at the Content is Queen podcast studios at
the Makerversity at Somerset house. For more information, go to contentisqueen.org.
In next week's episode, we are joined by Fangirls star Gracie McGonigal and
Ashley Goh from Babies to discuss the new musical The Phase which they appeared in
(49:23):
at the Vault festival in 2023. See you then!
You're listening to Represent, the queer musical theatre podcast. My name is Dr.
(00:05):
James Lovelock and I'm an academic and a huge musical theatre fan, exploring the
representation of all things queer in the musical theatre industry.
This week we are talking to the genius writer that is Yve Blake and the genius
performer that is Mary Malone. Mary appeared as Jules in Yve's musical
Fangirls at the Lyric Hammersmith Theatre last year and recently workshopped Yve's
(00:28):
new show Mackenzie, which is a retelling of Macbeth as a child television star.
In this episode we discuss female, queer and trans representation in musical
theatre and explore how to make a welcoming creative space for queer
performers. As always you can follow us on your favourite podcast platform and
(00:49):
don't forget to share this episode on social media. Let's get started.
Hi my name is Yve Blake. I write for film, TV and theatre. I wrote a musical called
Fangirls and my pronouns are she/her. Hi I'm Mary Malone, my pronouns are she/her.
I am an actor, recently been in Fangirls the musical by Yve Blake. She really ate that!
(01:11):
And also recently been in a Netflix show called Missing You and Doctor Who.
Amazing, lovely. So we're going to start with the show that you worked on
together which is Fangirls. Yve, if you could tell us maybe a little bit about it
and then Mary, if you could tell us a little bit about how you got involved in
it as a starting point and we'll see where we go from there. Yeah okay so
(01:34):
Fangirls, would you believe, is a show I began writing in ancient times 2016 and
premiered in 2019 in Australia and then kind of had this wild life there where it
came back twice, it did a national tour, it went to the Opera House and then it
premiered in London at the Lyric Hammersmith but produced by Sonia
Friedman Productions, and Fangirls is about a 14 year old girl called Edna.
(01:58):
Now she has scored a scholarship to a very posh all-girls school and luckily
she's found her two best friends in the world but unluckily it's the first day
of year nine and things have changed right? They're like hey, you know people
in our year, they're getting kissed, they're getting boyfriends, they're
getting girlfriends, chop-chop we got to grow up okay? Then it's a new world order
(02:19):
and Edna is shamed for loving Harry. Harry is someone she's never met, Harry
is in the world's biggest boy band Heartbreak Nation and Edna just knows
that she and Harry share like a spiritual connection and she believes
this for many different reasons but her friends basically kind of tell her when
she comes back to schoo,l hey like we're too old to be interested in a boy band,
(02:42):
or specifically her friend Jules who's really kind of going through it and then
she's got a friend Brianna who's sadly a bit of a sheep to Jules and is very
conflict averse and doesn't really stick up for Edna. So Edna now is kind of
down two friends, her relationship with her single mom is really really
strained you know she's like a scholarship kid who doesn't have the
(03:02):
means that her friends have but she loves Harry and more importantly she
feels it's her destiny to save him because she feels she can see something
no one else can see, which is that Harry has depression eyes, okay, he's not doing
so well, it's kind of a free Britney situation. And then like an act of God,
Harry's band announced for the first ever time that they are going to tour to
(03:24):
Australia where she lives and she knows this is her one shot to save Harry. But
how is a scholarship kid with no money whatsoever gonna get to that concert, let
alone meet Harry, let alone save him? That's what Fangirls confronts and let's
just say that Edna is forced to take things to criminal lengths in order to
(03:44):
try to succeed in her quest. Oh, how did I go? Oh and it's feminist at the end, and it's kind of gay on the way through.
That's my favourite description of a musical - feminist at the end and gay on the way through. So Mary, tell us a little bit about how you got involved in Fangirls. Yeah so,
(04:07):
oh my gosh when did I audition for the workshop? Like I can't even think when. I
think it's 2022. 2022, which is it's actually mad how long like Fangirls has
been part of my life, I'm like, oh that's so long ago. Babe, try being me! Yeah and
(04:28):
the audition came about and I actually I knew about the musical already but I
kind of yeah I was up for auditioning but I didn't train in musical theater
and it's not like something I sort of ever did professionally, it's something I
did when I was younger. But yeah, I auditioned for the workshop and like was
(04:49):
just yeah really like surprised and excited that I got to play Jules
for that workshop Jules is Edna's meaner friend or the friend who's going through
it and who criticizes her and kind of becomes her adversary but Jules is also
hands down the funniest role in the show. oh yeah. So when we are casting the role,
we're the toughest on the people who have to play Jules and no one could no
(05:12):
one could eat it like Miss Mary! Bless you, thank you. Yeah I mean Jules was like
it's kind of like a dream role for me I grew up like wanting to be Sharpay Evans
in High School Musical. I remember having a poster of Sharpay on my wall as a kid
(05:33):
and I remember like my auntie, who like clearly had no idea about me, it was like
is that your girlfriend Mary? And I'm like no, that's me, that's who I'm gonna
be. So yeah, I guess like Jules was like kind of like, yeah she's got that like
you know, wannabe mean girl about her. Actually it's like super lovable or you
(05:54):
know yeah but with like a lot of flaws, but yeah so much fun, did the workshop
and was, I mean, it was just like the most incredible experience actually ever,
I felt so like held and celebrated through all of it and there was so much
room for me in the room ,and yeah just had the best time so then yeah when the
(06:18):
auditions came about for the production at Lyric Hammersmith obviously I was
like, I really want to do this, and then yeah, I was lucky enough to then then get
the part for the actual show. It was amazing to go through like a workshop
and then get to do it in the end you know, which doesn't always
happen, so yeah that was like a real blessing and that's kind of how it came
(06:39):
about. The role of Jules is just so lovely but I think there's something
very special that you bring to it, Mary, and I always remember particularly the
way you moved as that character. There's a lovely scene later on, I won't
spoil too much, but there is a scene where there was a boy tied to the bed and
Jules has to go and investigate, and there was just something that you did in
(07:06):
the way that you moved towards that character, and also I think it's
something that happened sort of all the way through the show as well, there's
a variety of walks that you... I agree with you, like it's also so special as a
writer because you agonize over a scene and making it funny enough and what you
have to play with is words on the page and you try to make it as funny as
you possibly can, and then you watch actors do it and you know all the words
(07:30):
so nothing's gonna be funny to you about the words. But then Mary Malone walks
across the stage with her eyes like dinner plates because she's like pissed
off or surprised and it was so fun in rehearsals I was just pissing. I felt
like I actually got to watch the show which as a writer. You don't ever get
that experience like an audience member does, right, because you already know it
you know what's gonna happen. But yeah Mary, sorry if this makes you
(07:53):
uncomfortable, but you gave me the opportunity to see my work in a whole
new way, diva! that's so sweet, oh my god yeah I remember like, well this
just shows you how amazing the room was that I really just felt like I got
to offer so much, you know, that maybe like wasn't you know... There was, I think
there was a moment where I may or may not have turned into a dinosaur from
(08:16):
Jurassic Park and you know I mean that wasn't that wasn't written down to
happen but there was just space in this room where I got to just really
play. I think that you know to see me like that, that's to see me feeling
really free and powerful and that I don't always get to feel like that, you
know, in this job, so yeah what a blessing. Oh my goodness, I'm just thinking
(08:40):
back to the absolute bonkers stuff. It was a really goofy room. It was such a
goofy room, like oh my gosh. I mean I'm just thinking about everyone and what's
fun, right, is like the show itself - I described the synopsis but like what I
was interested in discussing when I wrote the show is like I was inspired to
(09:00):
write the show in ancient times when Zayn Malik left the band One Direction
and it became a global news story, and I followed the coverage and was like hold
on, I keep on seeing in these articles in 2015 the fans of One Direction being
described with words like 'hysterical', 'insane', 'a psycho', 'over-the-top', 'too much',
'pathetic', and I asked myself if these journalists would reach for any of those
(09:23):
adjectives if they were describing like an upset that happened in men's sport
and they were just trying to describe sports fans. And so like the show
itself is like a big celebration of like the enthusiasms of girls, gays and theys,
and it's really a celebration of like
(09:43):
hyperactivity and just loving something without apology, and so and like all the
characters are like 14 and 15 and so it was really fun because in the room, our
extraordinary director Paige Rattray, you know like directors often will be like
okay what's the biggest version of this scene and then we'll tone it down, and I
feel like in Fangirls it's like, what's the biggest version of the scene and
then we'll just keep it like that. Yeah, I remember feeling that like that I was
(10:10):
like, where's the line? Like, oh my god. Like the limit does not exist! Oh Paige
yeah, absolutely incredible, yeah she's a pisser, we love her! Yeah I loved that
about Fangirls and I think the way I described it was camp, very very camp
and I'm sure that maybe not be the word that you used in the room but oh no
(10:32):
absolutely, like bingo, yeah ding ding ding, yeah loved it because there's
something about that that really makes it feel inclusive particularly to a
queer audience, I think, but also it's something that we often get told not to
do. We get told like you say to do less and I think having the space for
that in Fangirls is so important and was the thing that was so lovely about it.
(10:56):
So I mean, tell us a little bit more about the space in the room and what
made it such a great space to work in. One of the things I'm quite interested
in is whether there is a difference being in a room which is, I've used the
posh term 'queer-infused' as if it's a teabag, having a queer-infused space. Are
(11:17):
there differences being in that space where queer people are allowed to kind
of blossom and contribute? What makes that space, what makes those things
happen? Mm-hmm. I feel like Mary's best to speak to this because it's interesting,
Fangirls is the first musical I wrote. There's been so many iterations of it
and I've got other musicals I have written and have developed but Fangirls
(11:39):
is the only musical I've written that I've seen go all the way through to
production, and it has always been directed by Paige so I don't really know
another way other than filling the room with gay people because why would you do
anything else? It's scary to think of it not being like that, but Mary you
could speak to, you've had the experience of Fangirls and can contrast it against
(12:00):
other experiences I guess? Yeah, yeah. I guess just like there's just
like a real sense of celebration for like individuality. Like I'm even just
thinking about like the very first audition for the workshop and I think
like whenever we would walk in like one at a time for the like
solo call ever, I'm pretty sure that you, Paige and whoever else was there
(12:24):
applauded us as we walked in. There was such energy and like yeah, like you know,
I think it's like there's if you have the awareness that like a lot of spaces
don't feel safe for queer and trans people and it's tough for us in this
industry to feel like we stand a chance maybe, or that you know, that people want
(12:46):
to hire us so when there's that level of like celebration from the start you're
like okay okay, like that's a hurdle that you sort of get past straight
away. Yeah, and I think seeing you know and seeing other queer and trans people
like in the space is just a huge one. I've done so so many projects where it's
just me but I'm pretty sure like, I'm just thinking about like the cast of
(13:11):
Fangirls and I'm just like pretty sure we were all queer and trans actually. And also to be like, I don't think it says
anywhere in the script necessarily about like Jules's identity or but it's
it's a show that like can hold like everyone or whoever is going to step
into that role, and sometimes of course I think like trans-specific
(13:35):
stories are important but there's something about like being trusted with
work that's not just about your transness, that's like really liberating
and exciting. And yeah, Fangirls was definitely that for me and I think that
there was just like a real, there was a lot of space held where you
could you could talk about anything in the room and if anything was bothering
(13:58):
you, and that was for everything, it wasn't just about like, you know, I
don't know, maybe my specific experience, but I felt like I nothing ever could
turn into anything big or messy because I was able to talk about everything I
thought and felt from from the start. And that included, I guess, lots of things
like maybe like certain thoughts about the character or a big one for me was
(14:22):
singing and keys and you know, I guess like a lot of musicals aren't
written in a key that's maybe accessible for trans women but Fangirls was
kind of so flexible for me and everyone really just came together and just
wanted to make it work, I think I remember you saying, Yve, just like, we
(14:42):
just want you to put this key where it's where it feels really yummy for you and
I was just like, that's such a nice way to say it, like yeah and for me like, you
know, it's not necessarily all about like how it's gonna sound for everyone else,
like where do I feel good and confident in my voice instead of like pushing me
somewhere uncomfortable so yeah that was like that really changed it for
(15:06):
me, that really made me feel better because I'm not necessarily the most
confident singer or or have like loads of training, but yeah I felt really held in that.
If you're interested in LGBTQ+ representation in musical theatre,
check out our website www.queermusicals.com for lots more information about
(15:27):
musicals with LGBTQ+ characters
It's so gorgeous though, your singing work in that show and the way
that it's all fitted together, I loved it. So a theme that's come up a lot in this
series of the podcast is about writers being flexible about changing keys of
(15:49):
songs. How difficult is it to...? Not that difficult!
So easy, oh my gosh! Like I feel very strongly about this because it's
interesting, I through writing Fangirls have made so many friends in the musical
theater community, lots of whom are femme actors who let's say, you know, they're
(16:10):
auditioning for Glinda. I hear reports about like okay, well, maybe you
can't be over x height to play that role and you have to be
able to hit this note, and you have to be able to do it eight times a week and
like I just can't imagine what it's like if you're someone who could bring so
much charisma to a role but there's such a cookie cutter because the show is a
(16:31):
product, you know. It becomes inflexible if it's this globally exported idea and
I just think that's so it's kind of dangerous, right, because then you'll have
you will have all of these graduates, these femme graduates who are like, you
know, like those days and days who are like, oh fuck well the majority musical
theatre class... Musical theatre has been written by men and they have made women
(16:51):
sing as high as they want because isn't it so fun when they hit these big high
notes? That's such a narrow way that maybe young femmie grads feel that they
can express themselves or feel that they have to like... I just can't
imagine the insecurity that an alto would feel knowing that most of like the
leading parts in musical theater maybe aren't for her, and I just go and and why
(17:14):
I want to see what everyone can can bring to a role and I think that's that's
so exciting. You know like what Mary brought to Jules was extraordinary, which
is evident from the fact that we put her in the workshop and then we're like
we obviously need her to do the full thing, and it's also... I mean, I guess
(17:34):
I don't know, this work is about teenage girls, right, and teenage girls can be so
many millions of things, it would just feel so like corrupt and weird to be
narrow and be like, no, this one has to sound like this and has to...
It's been a joy with every production we have done of this. I've seen five cast do
this show and with every production to kind of go, oh, what's your Jules? what's
(17:56):
your Brianna? what's your Edna? you know what I mean? So I don't know and it
really isn't that hard. I think where people that the arguments that people
make are about like the harmonies, you know if you change the lead line ,what
does that do to all the harmonies? Write some fucking new harmonies! Do you know
what I mean? I really don't think in my experience, it
hasn't been a burden, it has only been joyful and I just hope that like
(18:20):
everyone kind of gets with that program. We were talking to Robyn Grant who wrote
Unfortunate the Untold Story of Ursula the Sea Witch, the musical parody which
is amazing and is on in Salford over Christmas this year. And is Ursula gay?
Ursula is very gay. Important. I guess Ursula is very queer is probably the
(18:42):
better way to put it, but actually we had River Medway on the
podcast and they played Ariel which was amazing casting, and they were saying
that they changed the keys, you know, every time and they changed the harmonies
every time they rewrite the show, they put on a new production of the show and
it just seems that's so joyful to be able to do that with shows. And the
(19:05):
other thing I was thinking is how beautiful the song 'Disgusting' was
because of the specific vocal timbres that you'd written for and the way that
you'd written the harmonies in that song, and we got all the very different timbres
of the girls singing it and, you know, and then as the rest of the cast
joined in and it's such a beautiful song and there's so many of those moments in
(19:30):
in Fangirls as well. It's funny you bring up that song. So for the context of the
listeners, there is a song in Fangirls called 'Disgusting' and like where the
chorus arrives is three teenage girls separately in their bedroom and they're
talking about how privately they worry that, actually like there's a line in it,
'Will I ever get to stop just pretending to feel hot? What if this is it?' and just
(19:50):
the idea of looking yourself in the mirror and being like, what if I'm
actually disgusting and it's never gonna get any better. I'm never gonna grow
tits and what have you, like all of the insecurities that are sold to like young
girls, gays and theys, and I'm really proud of that song because I think when I sat
down to write it, I was like okay, so a theatre audience is guaranteed, like most
people who reliably buy tickets to theatre are people over the age of 50 60 70
(20:15):
and there's gonna be lots of, you know, my dad when I started writing this was like
a 70 year old man and I was like, if I start a song and it's like, 'Sometimes I
worry that my body isn't right', I feel like he would lean back, switch off
and go, yeah this is the issue song where the girls talk about how they hate
themselves, I know, I know. And so in constructing that song, actually each
verse opens kind of with like a joke and it's a song that gets the
(20:39):
audience laughing and then punches them in the gut, and I always find it's really
fun to watch actors do that song because it gets the audience laughing and then
they realize what the song's about and it's really fun watching actors play
with that. But also, you know you were just talking about harmonies and someone
who deserves a massive shout out is our exquisite musical supervisor Zara
(21:00):
Stanton. Yeah we love Zara! Cos she worked on the show in Australia and was so
extraordinary, works so quickly and is equally like excited about this point
that we just made, which is like just change the key, and so she's kind
like so excited by it and she took time with every single person in the
(21:20):
cast to find the right key. And like a great example is Terique Jarrett, who
played SaltyPringl, who is cis but has a beautiful voice that lives
somewhere totally different to anyone else who's played that role. Everyone
else who has played that role had this kind of like tenor voice with this falsetto kind
of functionality, whereas Terique's yummy place was much lower. I can't remember how
(21:41):
many semitones we brought the song down. I want to say like five semitones and it
was gorgeous and it was just a different world. And like the last
thing that I want to do to a performer, particularly, you know, a queer performer
is make them feel like they're in an outfit that doesn't fit them and that
they, you know, that they have to contort themselves in some way to be the right
thing, that's just not it. Yeah it's great that you brought up Terique and SaltyPringl
(22:06):
who is just such a wonderful character and I think, I mean, I was going
to say actually for those of us that are queer is perhaps one of our gateways
into the show, but actually in the cast that did the Lyric Hammersmith show
there were so many places. I mean I would I would say I really connected with Max
James Hodge in the ensemble because that's the sort of kid that I was when I
(22:29):
was growing up, but yes, SaltyPringl is such an important part of the show and I
wonder if you can tell us a little bit about how that character works and maybe
also, Mary, a little bit about how you kind of, I mean, you didn't have scenes
with that character but how that worked in terms of having that queer character
in the story. Mm-hmm, oh my gosh, so Salty. I want to explain to listeners like
(22:51):
who SaltyPringl is and then I want to talk about honestly how like fun and
challenging it was writing that part, because Edna is our protagonist and she
is a passionate and talented fanfic writer. She writes fanfiction about Harry
and his depression and her fanfic series in particular is about a fan
setting Harry free and then living on the run together so that he's
(23:14):
free from the trappings of fame, and she runs away from her life and they live
happily ever after. And she makes a friend online named SaltyPringl who's
a very passionate talented queer fanfiction author who lives in the
States, and when Edna needs to kind of cook up a plan for how she might
truly meet Harry in real life, she pitches to SaltyPringl that what if
(23:36):
she wrote a fanfic, you know, where a teenage girl finds a way to meet Harry
and on the basis of plotting a fanfic, Salty provides incredible insight into
how maybe someone could do it. And Salty of course thinks that this is like a
fanfic they're co-writing, whereas Edna, we realize, has intent to use this as a
blueprint. But it's really interesting, right, because Salty
(23:57):
says a lot of lines that are really important to me in the show. Like there's
a moment where Salty suggests that Edna - this is gonna sound so sick out of
context - that that the protagonist of their story pretends to have a terminal
illness so she is picked to be a girl that's brought on stage and serenaded to
at the concert, because that's a part of every concert, and Salty makes a point
that like they never pick boys to sing to but if your character is, if your
(24:20):
protagonist is a girl, she has a shot, and Salty kind of points out a few
things about the fact that like, you know what I mean, like the the fact that
if you're a little boy who loves say, One Direction, you're never gonna get a
pronoun like a he/him pronoun in one of their songs and just kind of
looking at like heteronormativity in the world. All to say, SaltyPringl is a
really important character to me but let's look at him like, or them, like
(24:45):
there's no specific pronouns for Salty in the script, it's like whatever but
Salty also assists the protagonist, right, and so it's really interesting because
this character is a queer character who really matters to me but if you've ever
written a musical, you know that what you end up cutting more than anything other is
scenes. It's like, let's get to another song, let's get to another song. So how
then do you keep a character full-bodied and dimensional when really the key
(25:10):
thing they must do is assist your protagonist in her journey, and yet you
also don't want to write a gay assistant, you know what I mean? You also don't want
to write someone who is a plot device and who's a magical queer character who
just comes to help a girl who's going after a guy. Now how does Edna identify? I
don't know if she knows but she's 14 and she wants to save a man so that's what
she's up to for these two and a half hours. And yeah, it's like Salty has been
(25:33):
really interesting to write. It's also interesting that in every cast, Salty's
been played by a black person and so it's like, okay, well, I also don't want to
make like a magical assistant... So I'm really lucky in that like, I know what my
intentions are with Salty and I've been able to collaborate with every performer
who's played that role to figure out how like, you know, what he means, how
(25:54):
Salty can be like a constructive queer character and not accidentally
fall into a trope that I never set out to construct. And what Salty also does I
should say, apart from assist Edna, is like represent, like Salty has always had
this song in the show called 'Feels So True' about about the fact that when
Salty is writing fanfic about Harry, like "who cares if it's a daydream, baby, it
(26:20):
feels so true" is the lyric, and it's the idea of like... how do I even put this? Like
you know, your right to kind of construct your own safe space where you are valued
and what are the lyrics of this song? 'When this world is messy and cruel I'll
build one that's better, I'll go there with you where we could be anyone we want
to be, feels more real than reality, don't care if it's a daydream, baby, it feels so
(26:41):
true". And it's about, you know, it's about the right for teenagers to imagine like
a bit of space for themselves. It's funny because I literally had those
lyrics in my head just as you said them just then, and for me that is totally
what the internet is for girls, gays and theys, and it's such a perfect song for
(27:02):
that, and I think when we're looking at the possibility of Salty being seen as
you know the gay best friend or a black best friend or however it might be,
actually it's those moments, and there's another lovely moment that I picked out
as well where Salty talks about his parentally assigned name, and it's
those moments that take that character from being out of that trope because the
(27:25):
problem with that trope is that you can't imagine them doing anything else.
With Salty, you can imagine their whole home life and their whole other
story and there's a whole other musical to be written about Salty. There really
is. Oh, that's a relief. Yeah, and that's what I love especially about that but
it's also, I think, I mean we can come on to the character Brianna as well, but I
think Salty is predominantly like the first explicit queer character that
(27:50):
we see in the show, and I guess there's something really important, Mary, about
kind of having that queerness up front in a show that that's being performed, I
suppose. For sure. Yeah, oh so trans coded with Salty! It's so true as well, it's so
like... Oh, it just speaks to me so much and also about being like a young
(28:14):
person, a young trans person online and like finding my people, yeah. Yeah, what
an incredible song. Yeah, I think it's really interesting having a character
like Salty that's like, you know, maybe like more explicitly a queer character
(28:37):
but then, like, and then what happens when you then make other characters queer or
played by queer actors and I'm just like, oh, that's such a great thing that
doesn't happen enough is that there's opportunity for like more than one of us.
Like I really enjoyed playing Jules because like that's such a
(28:59):
different character to Salty like completely like, maybe someone who like
is so hidden in so many ways or trying to like conform in so many ways
or trying to like get through, you know, being at school and being a
teenage girl like, oh my gosh, what a tricky thing. That's true and it
should be said to the listeners, Jules' like number one mission the whole show
(29:22):
is that she has to get a boyfriend, everyone in the year is getting a
boyfriend and she needs to get one and she has this toxic line to Brianna who's
gay, like 'it's easier for you, there's girls everywhere, we go to an all-girls
school, I have to outsource, I have to find boys in the wild!' She's like
toxicly het. It was so fun and I love to do that. So fun and I'm also like
(29:42):
sometimes the trans girls are like that! Like do you know what I mean? Like
just to say like we're like... and I love to do that, like to represent trans people
as like messy people who say some crazy shit sometimes which is great, but also
like so relatable. Like as a doll as well, like of course like winning that like
approval and needing a boyfriend and needing to be like the other girls which
(30:05):
is like such a great layer that comes from casting trans people in non-specific
parts, right, because we can add like a whole layer of story and depth. But yeah,
I think I always thought it did hit me doing the show I was like, oh it's so sad
that Jules doesn't get to meet Salty cuz I'm also just like, oh my gosh, she really
could do with Salty in her life, you know. I mean to Terique and I, we used
(30:31):
to like play with that, I think that that was quite fun and yeah. Yeah, so cute. The
other person I spoke to who's actually going to be in the next episode of this
series is Gracie McGonigal who played Lily, and she said that her and Terique had
a thing where they were, kind of between them, were the internet, different sides
(30:52):
of the internet. Yeah, that's true. And I think it's really lovely how in a show
like Fangirls even over quite a short run, you can get those sort of
relationships between ensemble characters between different characters
and these whole untold stories that happen in the background of shows, which
I know happen in all sorts of other long-running shows as well, but you know,
I love the fact that there's all that space for the ensemble, you know and
(31:16):
the ensemble often gets a multi-role, you know, they play across gender so you
know, sometimes you'll have, you know, well everybody on the stage will be female or
then you have the lovely scene with at the beginning of act two in the
concert where the whole boy band other than Harry are played by usually by
female or non-binary performers, which it's just so important because we're
(31:41):
very used to you know there being scenes where male actors are playing female
characters and it's usually done in a not particularly nice way for laughs, but
actually by having that flexibility across the whole cast, it means that it
literally is gender play. I really agree with that and I really feel like, yeah,
I've got lots of feedback on that over the years of people, yeah, people just
(32:04):
commenting on noticing that and the way that yet gender became like so fluid
across the multi-rolling. And it's funny, it's something that never occurred to me
but we get lots of feedback on from people being like, wow ,and I'm like, oh,
like it's funny when people describe this work as being radical in one way or
another because it's like it's more disappointing. It's like, oh,
(32:26):
I don't want to be applauded for this being an outlier, you know what I
mean I just want this to be the norm. If you want to follow us on social media,
you can use queer.musicals on Instagram or Facebook or you can follow
me at drjameslovelock on Instagram.
(32:53):
So Fangirls is just one of my favourite things that I've seen, I think that I've
seen ever, I just love it so much! James, that means so much. But I talk about it
all the time and I share it with my students and I hope that it has, you know,
future life in all sorts of different ways, but I'd also like to talk to you a
little bit about your other project that you've just been recently working on
(33:17):
which is Mackenzie, which I think you've just workshopped in Australia and
in London as well. Oh my gosh, I would love to talk about Mackenzie. You know,
it's amazing, so like Fangirls going on in the UK was huge. It's like the
hardest I have ever worked and afterwards I was so fried and I was like,
I'm just gonna do a writing exercise for fun and I'm gonna write something that
(33:38):
isn't for anything, it is just for the point of making me laugh. And I came up
with this premise which is like, what if Macbeth was a 13 year old child star and
what if Lady Macbeth was her ruthless stage mom, and what if I set this story
behind the scenes of a popular kids channel that I cannot name that was very
popular in 2006 in America, and what if I I said it in 2006? And it was really fun,
(34:04):
I put it in this like really nostalgic time I remember so well, Shakespeare had
already done the structure, like it was the biggest pleasure to write this. And
then I announced a reading in my hometown of Melbourne, I mean I'm moving
to London, but I like you know, living there now with all my friends reading
the roles, and the reading sold out like in half an hour thanks to like people
(34:25):
who love Fangirls, and so I was like great I don't have to market the reading,
easy, I'm just gonna use this as sort of accountability. But then all these
producers reached out and they said, bitch, what do you mean you have a
Macbeth adaptation? Do you know how many kids have to study Macbeth? Do you know
how many people we could sell tickets to? And so I accidentally, I guess, made this
(34:46):
thing that to so many people had a commercial potential because I'm
now realizing like a lot of a lot of students have to study Macbeth,
and a retelling of it that's like a bit yassified and a bit cunty, sorry about the
C word, but like, I didn't realize there was a market for it so it's ironic that
the thing that I made to take a break from like the oppressive commercialness
(35:09):
of theatre and constantly trying to figure out what would succeed in the
market and have high market potential, like it's ironic that I made this thing
to go, I don't want to think about that for a second, and then I've literally
just never had more interest in a project. Everyone's like, do you know how
many high schools we can get along to this? So I hope it goes well, I hope it
like lives up to their expectations but yeah it's gonna kick off next year in
(35:30):
Australia at a company I can't name, and then it is it looks like it's gonna tour
which is exciting. Amazing, yeah, that's great, and Mary, tell us a little bit
about the workshop and your involvement in that. She ate that! Who you played and
all that sort of thing. Oh gosh, I just had the best time. I mean I'm always
gonna be up for doing anything with this one, for sure. Oh my god, it was so good, it
(35:53):
was like a gorgeous room and amazing cast. Oh yeah, we had Dylan Mulvaney in
the lead, gorgeous. Sorr,y I'm totally interrupting you but gorgeous scene
where you played like, I guess, sort of her best, her momentary best friend. Mm-hmm,
that was really special. Oh my god, that was so fun. It was, yeah, oh it's so nice
like doing scenes with Dylan. I mean she's incredible, Yeah, so gorgeous. It was,
(36:19):
yeah, it was such a good time, and it was, you know, we didn't have long, it was for
a read. We like got it together real quick. We were rehearsing five hours. Five
hours! Which is, yeah, insane, but like yeah, you know, there's just like a lot of fun
in the room and we were just there to do it, and we all just like stepped up
and did that. I love to do like things like this. That way you don't really have
(36:41):
so much time to think and you've really just got to like go for it. Yeah, that's
spontaneity, it was really fun. You were going to say? No, I was just gonna say, I'm
am thinking about what the listeners need to know and it's like, well, that
there's a cast of six who play 21 characters so I don't know how many
people you play? Oh my gosh, I mea,n oh my god, a fair few. And it was just us reading it at
(37:03):
music stands for, you know, potential producers and stakeholders and whatever.
But yeah, it was really fun, I'm excited for it and you know
what it's funny, because my friend came along and she was like, huh, like yet
again, such a queer cast, and the story not explicitly a queer story,
kind of just like, you know, the story of Mackenzie's the story of
(37:27):
Macbeth, and it's a story of ambition, and it's also in this iteration, it's a, I
mean in Macbeth, Lady Macbeth has to borrow Macbeth's power because she's a
woman, and masculinity is your route to power, like the fact that he's a
man gives him access to power, and in this retelling what gives Mackenzie her
route to power is she is young, right, and that is power, and Ruth cannot access
(37:48):
that power because, so Ruth is Mackenzie's mom, you know, because she's,
in her own words, 'past it' and so like it's interesting, it's a story about
ambition and age, but yet again, hello, we're not gonna do it unless it's so gay,
in its essence, oh and there's also a,
like Macduff is now a butch lesbian. Hooray! Hooray! And I don't, I can't give
(38:11):
away like the big twist in the end, but it will be having to do with something
very queer. It's so good. That's excellent. I'm really looking forward to seeing
what happens with that next. And it's a play isn't it? A play with songs? Yes, oh
my gosh it's so nice. Fangirls was 25 songs, two and a half hours, two acts, and
(38:34):
this diva, this is a play with songs, three of them are sung out loud by one
person, the rest are fake can't say the word channel songs that I have written
that just exist in the background, and it's so nice. It's so like lightweight
and six people and not that I don't love musicals, I love them, but it's oh
(38:55):
it's such a heavy lift getting a musical made. You know like this is my 10th year
of having Fangirls in my life, and there's, like it's still climbing and
reaching new heights, but Mackenzie - I wrote that girl and I got her booked and
I've just never seen anything happen so fast. I'm like, this is what
happens when you don't need dance mirrors, when you don't need like a
(39:16):
choreographer and radio mics for each actor. It's been a nice holiday to get to
write a play and not a musical. I love musicals, I always will but it's been a
nice vacation to get to write something that's 90 minutes, six songs, like only
one singer - it's like a treat, you know what I mean, a holiday. This series of
Represent has been recorded at the Content is Queen studio in Somerset
(39:38):
House. Content is Queen is a podcast agency and community made up of women
people of color and LGBTQIA+ people who wish to connect create and
collaborate using audio and podcasting, For more information, go to contentisqueen.org.
So Mary, you've been very busy over the last few years, and I have got
(39:59):
quite a lot of people who listen to this podcast who are also Doctor Who fans. Oh,
hello! I feel I must ask you about the experience of working in Doctor Who and
again, working specifically playing a trans character, I think, yeah.
Obviously working with, you know, Ncuti Gatwa and Millie Gibson and all
of that. How did that come about and how was that experience for you? Oh yeah, that
(40:22):
was such an amazing opportunity. Yeah, I remember the the tape came along and
it's like, yeah, of course, like always dreamed of being in Doctor Who. The part,
yeah, and it was a, yeah, a trans specific part but also like nothing about her
being trans. I mean Russell is just like so amazing and like has always been
(40:47):
someone who's trying to champion queer and trans people and like, get us,
you know, on the telly in front of people, so yeah like, I was so happy
to be working with Russell and like, yeah, it was amazing. Like I think I had one
(41:09):
scene at the start and then we start filming, and then Russell sort of like
put some more in for me, and it's like that was really, yeah, really nice,
and yeah I'm so happy that I know him now. Yeah he was just incredible and very
personable and very yeah, very nice. Working on Doctor Who was great. I mean,
(41:30):
it was just like so fun and chill and again, just like, yeah, so queer. I mean
like, you know, Ncuti's there, it's like, you know it's like, coo,l I'm gonna be
good here. And yeah, I just had the most fun time and also like the Doctor Who
fans are incredible and amazing and so very queer and trans. So yeah, yeah,
(41:52):
what an honour to be part of that world for sure. Yeah, no, it was lovely and I
really appreciated seeing you in that as well, and yeah I think it's so important
that we see more trans roles in television as well as in film
and theatre. I mean, I'm just so like moved by the idea of thinking of young
trans people, trans women specifically like on Christmas Day, sat with their
(42:18):
families who may or may not be supportive and seeing like within one of
the first scenes as a trans woman singing in a bar. I just think like,
yeah, like if I saw that when I was younger that would have really empowered
me and stayed with me and yeah, yeah, I'm moved thinking about that and like what
effect that can have especially around Christmas. I mean like that can be
(42:41):
such a hard time for queer people yeah, so yeah yeah, really an honour. I've got
one more question for you which I've asked to everybody that's been on the
podcast this series, and we've talked quite a bit about workshops today and
I'm interested in the process of getting things from workshop onto whatever the
(43:02):
next stage might be, and one of the things I'm trying to do to help that is
to get people to talk about workshops that they've been involved with or
workshops that they've seen of shows that they would really like to see move
on to the next step. Spotlighting work in development, we know,
yeah. Yeah, and hopefully then people will be able to find something to listen to
about it or find something to read about it, and then when it comes up next time
(43:26):
those people will be able to go, yes, I've heard about this, Mary said this was
great, or Yve said this was great and then we'll be able to look for it. So we
already know that there's a little play called Mackenzie that's been worked on
recently that apparently was all right, but are there other things that you've
been involved with workshopping or other things that you've seen that you
(43:47):
would really like to see? I can name three and they're all Australian.
You know about these, it's a bit niche, you know, you're kind of gonna be not like
other girls, you're gonna be like knowing these Australian works. So one of them is
by this gorgeous trans girly Cassie Hamilton and she has written a musical
called A Transgender Woman On The Internet Crying and the score is like
(44:09):
this incredible hyper-pop score. Cassie produces her own music and the score is
just, it's like no piece of musical theater you have ever heard or seen. You
can find the EP, she's released the EP on Spotify, it's unbelievable and it's had
so many workshops and had such a huge response in Australia, I'm sure it's on
the edge of a production and yet you know as we know, musicals are expensive
(44:30):
and it's very very hard to to land the plane on getting a production. And
the other two I want to point out, there's a musical comedy duo in
Australia called Mel and Sam and they're super successful in Australia but they
are both theatre kids and they have scored a grant to write a musical that's
called Doof and the premise is incredible. It's like five lesbians who
(44:50):
go to a music festival every year, and then you discover that this year
what's different is they've come to scatter the ashes of their friend who
should be there with them who's come every year, which I just, it's such a
beautiful premise. So they are developing that and the early songs
they've shared from that are just... Their brains work at the speed of light and
lyrically, they are so juicy and exciting and there's so much plot in the songs
(45:14):
and that's brilliant. And the final one I want to shout out is a musical called
Fig Tree which is inspired by, you know, the idea of the fig tree that Sylvia
Plath talks about in The Bell Jar, and all the lives we could be living. And
it's written by a woman called Jillian Cosgriff and it's like a beautiful
four-hander chamber musical about this couple who are deeply in love and decide
okay, well maybe it is time to have a baby, but before they do they decide
(45:37):
they're gonna have a fidelity room spring up. For six weeks, they're gonna
live separately and have as many affairs as they want, and it's this moment where
each of them are kind of looking at the fact that like, wow, there's a thousand
lives I could be living. And yeah, that that tension between spontaneity and
stability, what do you choose? And things get kind of magical in this really
(45:57):
exciting way, that's all I'll say. Yeah that sounds great. Yeah, definitely look
out for all of those shows and I'll put links to them on the podcast as well.
What about you, Mary? OK, some things that I've been really excited about. I
(46:18):
guess first I want to shout out to piss/CARNATION, which is an amazing yeah
duo of trans women who make theatre and experimental theatre and they
just finished a run of their show Ugly Sisters at Soho Theatre which I think
was just incredible. I was, yeah, so taken back by it. I don't think I've ever seen
(46:43):
a show with two trans women who also made it doing something so brave as
that. It's an incredible show about Germaine Greer and her
relationship, her encounter with a trans woman, slash relationship as well, yeah,
it's a whole sort of fantastic or like daydreamy sort of amazing show exploring
(47:07):
that and they're both incredible and I know that they're up to like new work
together, separately, writing, making, so I just think we should all keep an
eye on those girls cuz I think they're incredible. The other thing that I'm
really excited about is I just actually came off of a job at the Royal Court, it
was a showcase for the Young Playwrights Award and I got to read an amazing new
(47:33):
play called Fox Hunt by George McAree which, oh my gosh, it was incredible.
George is a 16 year old trans woman and it is one of the most incredible things
I've ever read by a trans person or by anyone about trans-specific issues.
(47:54):
It's about lots of things, but it's about, it's specifically about the
Supreme Court ruling, which is very recent. I was kind of gagged to open it
and be like, oh ,she's on it, well shit. And yeah, she just did such a good job. It's
such a beautiful and clever piece and I know that George is up to lots more and
(48:19):
and making new work and also performing, and yeah I'm just so excited for her and
what she's gonna go on to do. Yeah brilliant, yeah absolutely great. So
hopefully you know all of these things will be things that we can support and
we can, you know, look out for and see what happens with them next. It's been so
lovely talking to you both today. Thank you so much for being here on the
(48:41):
podcast. Oh thank you! And thank you everybody for listening at home as well
and I will see you all soon. Thank you, bye!
Thank you for listening to Represent, the queer musical theatre podcast. The
research for this series is funded by the British Academy Early Career
Researchers Network Seed Fund and supported by Sheffield Hallam
(49:03):
University. The episodes were recorded at the Content is Queen podcast studios at
the Makerversity at Somerset house. For more information, go to contentisqueen.org.
In next week's episode, we are joined by Fangirls star Gracie McGonigal and
Ashley Goh from Babies to discuss the new musical The Phase which they appeared in
(49:23):
at the Vault festival in 2023. See you then!
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