Putting the Nation in Therapy with Phyllis Leavitt

Summary

In this episode of Retrieving Sanity, host Keegan Read engages with psychotherapist Phyllis Leavitt, who advocates for a national therapy approach to address the collective trauma and dysfunction in society. They discuss the importance of understanding personal and societal trauma, the role of communication in healing relationships, and the necessity of accountability and love in fostering a healthier community. Phyllis emphasizes that healing begins at the individual level and can ripple out to affect families and society as a whole. The conversation also touches on the significance of hope, kindness, and the need for systemic change to create a more compassionate world. Be sure to check out her website here: https://www.phyllisleavitt.com/

Takeaways

Therapy is essential for healing both individuals and society. Trauma is a shared experience that connects us all. Healing requires understanding our past and its impact on our present. Communication skills are vital for resolving conflicts. Accountability is necessary for personal and societal healing. Love is a fundamental component of recovery and healing. Personal healing can create a ripple effect in the community. Shame and blame hinder healing and growth. Engaging in activities we love can foster personal well-being. We must start at the microcosmic level to effect change in the macrocosm.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Therapy and Healing 03:53 Healing the Nation through Psychology 08:21 The Role of Skills in Recovery 12:17 Breaking the Cycle of Abuse 16:33 Finding the Victim Within 21:15 The Power of Love in Healing 24:48 Truth and Reconciliation for Healing 27:51 Understanding the 12 Steps and Personal Growth 28:50 Leading by Example in Relationships 30:15 The Ripple Effect of Personal Healing 32:05 Bringing Therapy to the National Level 33:39 Belief in Humanity and the Power of Healing 36:02 Maintaining Sanity in a Chaotic World 37:56 The Importance of Doing What You Love 39:12 Healing Through Love and Belonging 40:17 Starting at the Microcosmic Level 41:23 Being the Black Sheep for Change 42:56 The Ongoing Journey of Healing 43:55 Fun with Therapy Scenarios 54:18 Retrieving Sanity and Lifelong Healing #mentalhealthpodcast #therapy #trauma #hurtpeople #addictiontrecovery #communication #accountability #healing #society #love #hope 

 

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Everything that's been shared with me from otherpeople that's good and helpful and healthy
and wise has changed my life and we can allbe that for other people. So I would say don't
give up hope. If you really are hurting, findsomewhere to get help from for yourself. You
deserve it.

(00:24):
Hello, hello, and welcome back to RetrievingSanity with your podcast host Keegan, and this
is your podcast for all mental health addictionrecovery issues and topics. And I've got a
question for you real quick. Do you wish youcould put the whole nation in therapy? I do
too. And today's guest is Phyllis Levitt. Today'sguest is Phyllis Levitt, and she is a psychotherapist

(00:45):
with a ton of experience, and she wants to putthe nation in therapy. So I can't really argue
with her there. I think it's a great idea. butwe kind of need to figure out who she is. So,
Phyllis, why don't you tell us all about yourselfand what makes you want to put the nation
in therapy? Well, thank you so much for havingme here with you today. I love the topic of
your podcast because it's so broadly neededand interesting and needed by so many people.

(01:10):
yeah, you know, working with so many peopleover the years, having been a client myself,
dealing with a lot of dysfunction and traumain my own childhood originally, which... which
is actually the reason why I became a therapistbecause once I did therapy, I really wanted
to share the benefits of that with other people. So I've worked with hundreds of people over

(01:33):
the years, families, individuals, adults, children,couples, and it became so clear to me not
long into my practice that not only are we notalone in our dysfunction, even though it can
make you feel very isolated to have been hurtor dealt with trauma. uh We're not alone. We

(01:53):
suffer together in our own little cubicles sometimes.And I think that it's important to know that
we're not alone and that the effects of traumaor addiction or whatever you've gone through
are really very common among people. And Ithink it can create a feeling that I do belong
somewhere because I actually have a communityof people that are trying to heal along with

(02:17):
me. and that we can share what we've learnedalong the way. It's the best, you know, because
none of us has all the answers by ourselves.But anyway, early on in that process and over
the years, it just began to dawn on me thatall groups and like businesses, schools, communities
and nations operate on family dynamics andwe bring our mental health or our ill mental

(02:44):
health to our participation in the larger groups.that we're a part of. you know, through no
fault of our own, this is just the parentingthat we got. And if we learn to be aggressive
as a way to survive, we're probably going tobring those aggressive tendencies to the workplace
or school or church or, you know, the community.We learn to be passive and submissive as a

(03:07):
way to survive. We're probably going to bringthat into our relationships as well of all
kinds. And so I began to see that many of theways that our country works are, and the
policies that we enact, and the ways that wetreat people are very much like what dysfunctional
and often abusive families do to their familymembers. Ostracizing certain people, leaving

(03:32):
certain people out, seeing them as inferior, targeting certain people for abuse or neglect,
or violence. And so I really... And so thepoint of my book isn't to point fingers, it
isn't to blame, it's to say, how did we gethere? How did we get to the place where the
family of America has so many abusive tendenciesand policies and so many people are hurt and

(03:57):
suffering and reenacting those same things?em Again, in some ways through no fault of
their own, you know, and at the same time thatwe're all responsible for ourselves. So those
two things kind of coexist. And how could theprinciples of psychology help heal our country?
How could the ways we teach people to healtheir own wounds, to communicate better with

(04:19):
one another, to learn new skills that helpthem avoid violence when they're really upset,
or self-harm when they're really upset, or addictionwhen they're really suffering. How can we,
a nation, do the same things? So that's reallywhy I wrote the book, and it's really bringing
the microcosm of individual and family healing.to a broader setting for use, making psychology

(04:45):
available, you know. Yeah, kind of making itto where it's not quack science, right? It's
not something that's looked down upon now, right?Definitely not. And it really isn't quack science.
I mean, you can tell anybody who or talk toanyone who has really gone the, done the journey.

(05:07):
You know, and really dive into their own painand um come out the other side with help from
a supportive and knowledgeable therapist orfriend or, you know, other healing kind of
person that it's worth it. That what you retrieveis your own essence. What you retrieve is your
innocence. What you retrieve are your greateststrengths and gifts. And there's nothing that

(05:31):
can compare to that. Yeah, that is for sure. And... I think that that's some beauty in
it, right? It's that we're trying to find theold us in a sense, but at the same time, we
can't really find the old us because that doesn'texist because it's in the past. So we kind
of have to figure out how we got really messedup in the first place. Is that right? Yeah,

(05:56):
I mean, I would look at it this way. I thinkthis is what you're saying and correct me if
I'm wrong, that part of good psychotherapy asI have learned it and experienced it myself
and done it with other people is you do lookinto the past because we need to know what
the formative elements are in our own psychicstructure. We need to know what the role models

(06:16):
are that we absorbed. Were they healthy? Werethey unhealthy? Were they abusive? Were they
neglectful? You know, how did um our parentstreat each other? What were the role models
for men and women? What were the expectations?What were the rewards and punishments? And
one of the big ones is How did the familiesthat we grew up in and the communities that

(06:36):
we grew up in deal with conflict? violenceokay? Was it condoned? Or did people really
try to work things out and come back together or separate in peace if they really couldn't
work it out? Because that's, think, where psychological healing leads. Where it leads
is healing leads to is the healing the relationshipwith ourselves and with other people. or many,

(07:03):
many people who really do some good work intherapy, they find themselves having much healthier
relationships and much more able to leave relationshipsthat are unhealthy for them. Yeah, it's kind
of getting power back in a sense. Yes. ohBut what's that saying? With great power comes

(07:26):
great responsibility, right? So how do you wieldyour self more responsibly. know, I'll tell
you what I have found. I have found that you,in some instances, you kind of help teach people
that. But in a lot more instances, what I'veseen is when a person has the opportunity to

(07:48):
heal what hurt them, and we cover some of thatessential self that they were that got buried
under layers of negative beliefs about themselves,uh poor role models for behavior. and uh poor
coping mechanisms that they developed whichwere the best they could do to survive. When
a person has the opportunity to peel some ofthat back and actually find that essential

(08:12):
self, they correct their behavior by themselves. don't want to hurt anyone. They don't want
to act out or act in. Or when they have thatimpulse, they have more and more choice to
restrain themselves from things that they knoware destructive. We don't do it perfectly.
Sometimes, you you yell and then you have toapologize. But there's that there's a there's

(08:36):
an awareness that grows inside of what's healthyand what's not. And it becomes more of a guiding
principle. Have you found that as well? Yeah. And it's uh how would I say that whenever
because for myself, whenever I went throughtherapy, I was kind of sitting there. I was
like, you're not I was asking my therapist like you're not really helping me come up

(09:01):
with a solution. You're asking me more questionsafter you ask me a question. And she gave
me a book and it was essentially about how twotherapists were talking about the client or
whatever they would call it back then. uh Theyessentially will solve their own problems whenever
you just help them get road obstacles out ofthe way. And in my experience, that's kind

(09:27):
of how it's been too. And whenever I have that Power back for instance whenever I have a
clear road. I definitely don't want to hurtpeople I don't want to do weird things I don't
want to do this that or another but there'sstill times where I'm getting a little sidetracked
or something and it's usually because I didn'tget something quite right or maybe I'm relearning

(09:47):
a different uh version of the pattern andI'm just trying to Rework that and so on
so forth. Does that make sense? Yeah, and Ithink there's room for both in answer to your
question. I think when we do peel back the layersand do some healing of our own wounds, our
coping mechanisms grow up, you know, and theybecome more healthy, right? And at the same

(10:10):
time, there are skills that most of us didn'tlearn. I didn't learn any of the skills that
I've learned since. I didn't learn any of themgrowing up. And so if you read books on nonviolent
conflict communication skills, right? If youget to practice in therapy with a partner,

(10:30):
some of those, you know, making eye statementsand reflective listening and asking for what
you want instead of complaining about what youdon't get. You know, these are all skills we
can actually learn from each other, from therapists,from other healers, from books. So it's a combination
of both. You know, I think we kind of heal thecore and then we learn something new and we

(10:52):
either learn it from ourselves or from otherpeople. Hmm. Yeah. It's all valid. Yeah. And
I love how you're saying that it's essentially we're once we heal ourselves, we kind of
heal those around us too. It's that rippleeffect, uh, chaos theory, whatever you want
to call it. But in essence, whatever we're goingto do to ourselves on the inside is going to

(11:15):
reflect on the outside. And that's why thenation is just so kind of messed up right now.
Right? I think so because first of all, thinkthere's a lot of very unhealed people holding
positions of power and they have the authorityand the means to act out their dysfunction
and their wounds on other people. the sad partis that one of the effects of untreated abuse

(11:40):
for some people, not all people, but is a lackof empathy for others and a lack of ability.
to really want to feel the impact of theiractions on other people. And when a person
does that kind of healing work, they feel remorsewhen they hurt someone. They feel remorse for,
em you know, and even sometimes for the waythey've treated themselves. You know, they

(12:03):
feel sorrow for that and they want to correctit. And I think that's really what we're looking
for. We're not looking for perfection. We'renot looking for perfected human beings because
I think that's a long, long way off if it'spossible. I think we're looking for people
who want to be accountable and who will comeback to the table and make amends and do it
differently, but also stand up for what theyneed to stand up for without doing harm to

(12:29):
other people. And that's a very, that's a veryfine line to walk. It takes a lot of practice
and it takes a lot of like being willing tomake mistakes and come back to the table.
That's for sure. And you bring up some reallygood points because If the people in charge
are the ones that are hurt, they're going tokind of normalize whatever, like you said,

(12:52):
dysfunction that they're dealing with. And thenwhenever it gets normalized down the road,
I think that that's how trickle down economicsis supposed to work. Right? Like, however the
top dogs are doing is how the bottom peopleshould eventually be doing too. But it feels
like this kind of psychological stuff worksat, I don't know, 10 times the speed of anything

(13:13):
else really, because it's our mindset and ouractions, And it gets lodged in our psyches.
It doesn't disappear. So if you're hurt by otherpeople and you've learned from the role models
in your family or your community or your leadership on a national level or on an institutional
level that it's okay to attack people, it'sokay to hate people, it's okay to kill people,

(13:37):
it's okay to withhold resources from people, it's okay to blatantly, you know, perpetrate
injustice. then that's your role model. Andwe have a lot of people, a lot of young people
growing up in the world today here in Americaand around the world. And this is the role
model they're seeing for what's acceptable.And that's why I call it the family of America.

(13:59):
The family of America needs to heal. Justlike uh if a family comes to therapy or gets
into the judicial system because they've uhbeaten their children or they've sexually abused
them or they've... kicked a kid out of the houseand the child was homeless. You if they come
into the court system, yes, they might be heldresponsible for the things that they did that

(14:22):
were hurtful and harmful, but in a healthysociety, we also try to help those who have
perpetrated injustice heal from whatever setthem up to do it in the first place. And then
you have a corrective system. And that's howyou break the cycle is you heal the... You
heal not just the victims, but you heal theperpetrators as much as humanly possible. Yeah,

(14:46):
that's kind of one of the hard things to reallydo though, because it's like, you hurt me or
you hurt so many other people. Like you don'tdeserve to be feeling good, right? But in reality,
everyone's a human and everyone has their flawsand whatnot. I do think there are some things
that are unforgivable, but there are definitelythings that we can do as an individual or as

(15:08):
a society to work around those things in thelong run, right? Absolutely. And I think the
more we're committed to some kind of socialjustice, even in the prison system, the more
we're not going to have repeat offenders. Youbreak the cycle on a national scale, on a community
scale, on a world scale. You've got to beable to see the victim inside the perpetrator.

(15:34):
even if that person still needs to be restrainedor held responsible in a severe way for what
they've done. Yeah. And I mean, makes sensebecause as a former alcoholic myself, I can
definitely say I was the perpetrator on a lotof hurts, but in the same light, I was also

(15:55):
the victim in a lot of ways. I was just twistingmy own pain and throwing it on others, really.
That's exactly it. That's it. You hit it ina nutshell. And I think it's beautiful that
you can say that from your own experience. And I think most people, know, most people,
and I'm not talking now about murderers or terroristsor the school shooters. I'm not talking about

(16:17):
those people, although the same is true forthem. um even, you know, just the run of the
mill people like me, I'm a run of the mill person,right? I had some severe abuse in my childhood.
I didn't kill anybody. I didn't beat my children.uh But I've heard people. We've all heard people.

(16:39):
We've all said things that were unkind or weall missed the cues of how we could be more
sympathetic. We've said things behind people'sbacks, whatever we've done. And so I think
that's part of healing is to not only findthe victim inside yourself and heal that part
of you, which sometimes can be very challengingbecause it's painful, but it's also a sign

(17:02):
of character and integrity to build that strengththat you can also own your own lack of uh
being a kind person or a helpful person or beingan unkind person. Yeah, you have a really
good point. I guess really the question thatI have on that end would be you were saying

(17:22):
that it helps build characters. So does thatimply that it's only built after the fact?
Or does one have to maybe build character beforethey're ready to take that dive into healing
themselves? You know, I don't know if it's aneither or. I don't. But I think before a person

(17:43):
has a chance to heal, some of their copingmechanisms look like defenses. You know, they
wall off, they won't talk about it, they getangry, they blame other people. And it's all
a defense against their own pain and not knowinghow to take responsibility for their own actions

(18:04):
without shame. Because we're shaming society.That's what we do. You know, instead of us
all saying, who is without sin that could throwthe first stone? You know, none of us. None
of us. And if we can really know our own humanityand our own flaws, then and not make it so
shameful to accept, you know, our own know,missteps and maybe harmful things that we've

(18:30):
done, then we can pass that on to other peopleand we can create that culture. And therapy
does that. Therapy is not judgmental. It's notabout you're bad and wrong that you did that.
It's like, how did you get there? What happenedto you that made you react that way? Let's
talk about that. Let's find that innocent littlekid that got, you know, locked in a closet

(18:53):
or beaten or... Bullied at school or told hewas stupid or whatever it was Let's find that
little boy because there was nothing wrong withhim or little girl um Nothing wrong with you.
You were fine and you had some really poor conditioning or bad limit setting or whatever happened
to you and Unfortunately, you know in Americatoday a lot of the trauma that people suffer

(19:18):
is not just in their homes It's in their schools,it's in their community, it's bullying, it's
racial profiling, it's racial discrimination,it's injustice, it's economic inequality that
a person can't rise out of. And so the familyof America really has to be factored into our
individual well-being. Okay, so here's thequestion. If we're talking about a family system

(19:45):
of sorts, That's one of the things is that wheneversomeone like myself, an alcoholic or someone
that has a very serious mental health issue,they're sitting there and people have tried
to tell them time and time again, like, hey,you're trying to do this, you're messing up,
you're doing this, and they can do it eitherwell, bad, so on and so forth. But there's

(20:07):
something that kind of works for some people.I know it doesn't work for me because it just
pushes me into a corner, but that's an intervention.Do you think that like interventions would
help certain people if like everyone justgot together and said like, hey, we all see
this, why don't you like, there's a couplethousand of us. can't say that I'm an expert
in interventions, but I have some experiencewith it. And what I would say is that an intervention

(20:33):
like any intervention, whether it's in a psychotherapistoffice or between, you know, man and wife
or whoever it's between. But you're talkingabout a specific intervention for addiction.
If the container around the intervention is,love you and we want you to get well, and in

(20:56):
service of that, we need to tell you the impactof your behavior because you're hurting other
people. But it's not like shame, blame, andwhat's wrong with you. And that's a difficult
thing to do because As you know, and I knowwell from my own experience, um addiction can

(21:17):
cause a lot of pain. A lot, a lot of pain fora lot of people. um But you know, the bottom
line of healing is we have to come back to love.Love is what heals. m So if it's not an ingredient
in what you're doing, it's probably not goingto work. oh You can whip people into better
behavior, but you haven't healed them. ah sayingthe whipping will continue until morale improves,

(21:44):
right? It's from a video game. uh one of thethings you said before kind of lead into
what you just finished with and that was thatwe're shaming society. We're shaming individuals.
We're shaming people for just being human, forhaving little mess ups, little things in there.

(22:05):
And whenever those little mess ups happen,because people are shamed, that's a form of
unlove, right? Absolutely. And it's a horribleexperience. If you've ever felt shame, whether
someone shamed you or you shamed yourself, you know it's excruciating. There's something

(22:26):
excruciating about that experience and it doesn'theal. It makes us lock down into whatever
our defenses are, being more pleasing, beingmore isolated, being more addicted, being
more workaholic. whatever it is, it inspiresus to try to protect ourselves with whatever
defenses we can muster. um So whenever we getshamed, the defenses go up, which creates that

(22:54):
negative feedback loop, which probably startsup whatever hurt someone else in the first
place. Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. And wesee that on a... You know, I think we are
a very shaming society. And when I say thethings that I say about our society and our
culture, none of it's a blanket statement.There are wonderful people everywhere. who

(23:17):
are loving, who are kind, who are generous,who are philanthropic, who go out of their
way for their neighbors, who apologize whenthey, you know, do something wrong. em But
as a culture, we still, I think we're a coliseumculture. I think we like to see people suffer.
I mean, I would not disagree with you inthat sense at all because it seems that there

(23:44):
is a sense of maybe entitlement, maybe somethingelse where people get their jollies, if you
will, from looking at others and going, oh,at least I don't have that. At least I'm not
going through that. I'm better than that. AndI think that that's what kind of keeps a lot
of people going is because they look at othersand say, well, I'm still above that. I'm not

(24:11):
where they are. So I'm not doing too bad. I think there's another piece of it because
sometimes it's really about projecting our ownshame onto other people. How often have you
read stories where someone was, you know, absolutelyup in arms about some child being molested
and it turns out they're a molester. So they'vetaken their shadow and they've projected it

(24:36):
out because they can't bear their own guilt. And so I think, I just really think for America
to be in therapy, for us to be in therapy asindividuals, as family, as communities, we
have to celebrate people taking responsibilityfor their misdeeds. That doesn't mean not hold

(24:57):
them accountable. If someone molested a child,that's a serious offense. That's a life-changing
experience for that child. The devastation.So yes, we have to hold people accountable,
but what if we said, um what if we did something,some version of the truth and reconciliation
model where we make it safe for people who havecommitted crimes or hurt other people to come

(25:22):
forward and own their own what they did andhear the impact of their actions. um How else
do we heal? Who else do we stop the cycle?um One of the things that I kind of had an
idea of how we could do that as a society, itwould be really cool because it'd essentially

(25:45):
be like, hey, you're going through this, fillout this little form and we're going to have
you go to this retreat place for a little bitto get your stuff back together. and you come
back and you should be reintegrated back towhere you were, right? But that's the thing
is that our society doesn't work that way. Andit would take a total reform to get to the
point of saying, it's okay to not be okay. It'sokay to admit you messed up. It's okay to

(26:11):
come to a sense of repentance, if you will,right? But- I think that's what healing does.
Because, you know, I think- with all the therapyI've done, all the different healing work that
I've done. You know, I used to feel terribleshame when I did something that I, you know,

(26:31):
said something that I knew wasn't kind and itjust came out of my unconscious, right? You
know? I don't think I'm a bad person, but Icertainly said unkind things to people or did
unkind things. Sometimes it was intentionaland sometimes it really wasn't, but I did it
and I could reflect on it. And it wasn't untilI was able to do a lot of healing work. that
I actually feel like I want to be accountablefor that. comfortable to say I'm sorry. I don't

(26:59):
think it's comfortable to anybody to just say,hey, you know, but it's worse discomfort not
to do it. Yeah, I would have to agree. One ofmy questions is, are you familiar with the
12 steps? Somewhat. I haven't done them myself.Fair enough. I don't think many people that

(27:20):
are working a sober lifestyle or whatnot haveexperience with the 12 steps aside from hearing
the 12 steps and maybe a step or two alongthe way. But what you're essentially nailing
down would be steps four and five and theneight and nine. So four and five is making
your list of resentments, your fears and allthat stuff and then admitting it to someone

(27:45):
else while they help you see your errors andthen eight and nine is sitting there saying,
is who I messed up to and this is how I'mgoing to make it up to them. Exactly. And
I am familiar with that. And I myself was notan addict, but I have had lots of addiction
in my family. So I'm very familiar with it.um So yeah, I know what you're talking about.

(28:09):
And you don't have to be an addict for thosethings to be very valid for your life, right?
Yep. ah I always kind of made the joke thatI think everyone would get either along better
or just have a better life if people workedthe 12 steps one good time at least. but it's
hard to really get that across to people. Like,if you do this, you will be better, and in

(28:34):
extension, those around you will be better.So how do we actually convince people to get
into therapy or to do things to better themselvesor to look out for other people too? You know,
I think we just start with ourselves. I think,and I think you said something similar to this
early on, which is the more you do your ownwork, the more you manifest differently in

(28:57):
relationship with other people. You are moreloving, you are more kind, you are more tolerant,
you are more able to deal with diversity. Youcan handle conflict without becoming highly
aggressive or shutting down and closing up.um Imperfectly, at best, all of us. But you
have more skill to navigate relationship. Ithink you said something similar to this, which

(29:20):
is something that one of my... teachers ingraduate school said that I never forgot and
that is that one person can change a relationship.If I don't grab the bait when you yell at me
and I don't yell back but I say, just tellme what you're really angry about. I can hear
it. You know, I'm willing to hear it. I wouldlike you to stop yelling but I'm willing

(29:41):
to hear what your beef is with me. em It's verylikely the other person will calm down. Yeah.
If they don't, you can say, don't want to talkuntil you can speak to me in a different tone
of voice, but I'm willing to come back whenyou're ready. So one of the things I'm kind
of hearing would be by living by example, right? Leading by example, really. And also

(30:08):
just kind of opening space for people in thefirst place. Right. Right. And then I think
that mushrooms out into who we are in the world.Like here you are, you're saying I'm a recovering
addict and you're doing a podcast to help otherpeople on their journey. And I think that's
what happens when we go on a healing journeyis we want to share. So we become a different

(30:32):
kind of participant in our community and ourfamily and in our nation if that's our sphere
of influence. But even if it's a, even if you'rea different more loving you know, more open
person in your family. That's good. That'senough. Yeah. Because it really does start
at the aside from the individual level, itwould immediately branch out to the family

(30:57):
and then family to what would you say, coworkers or would coworkers be the mix with family
maybe? Yeah. I mean, it can be anybody in your community of people that you interact with.
can be people you know, like the people youwork with or the people in your church. Or
it can be just how you treat somebody in a storeor on a phone call. um It can be how you, maybe

(31:23):
you write a letter to your representatives.Maybe you write an editorial in the newspaper.
Maybe you start a podcast. Maybe you're likeme, you know, I had significant trauma in my
childhood. I did a lot of therapy. And thenI wrote some books about what I learned about
my experience of a healing journey because Iwant to share that. And I think the more we

(31:44):
encourage people to heal and uncover theirbest selves, the more they're going to be the
most stellar contributors to the people aroundthem. Real quick, you did mention a book again
and all that. Do you have a website that you'dlike people to visit? Yeah, I do. have, it's
my name, it's www.philislevitt.com. I don'tknow if your viewers can see the spelling there,

(32:09):
but it's L-E-A-V-I-T-T. And um there's a lotof information about my book, America in Therapy,
A New Approach to Hope and Healing for a Nationin Crisis, which is taking all the principles
that I learned from psychotherapy and lookingat how that could be to bring our country to
therapy and apply the best psychology to healingour divisiveness and our violence and our

(32:32):
ideological divides and our prejudices and allof the rest. um Basically bringing, you know,
in some ways bringing conflict resolution skillsto a country, but it's far more than that.
um And on my website, um you know, there's linksto how you can buy my book. And I'm not sure

(32:52):
if it's there right now, but I will put it there. If you sign up where it says contact me, you
will get my newsletter. And I write, I try towrite really thoughtful newsletters. And when
you get the newsletter, you will get links tosome free PDFs that I've created on identifying
your conflict type, principles for conflictresolution. um I made uh an audio book of my

(33:20):
book, American Therapy, that I'm going to offerfor free. And all of those are available if
you just sign in for the contact me. on mywebsite. don't have to pay anything. don't
have to, you know, I'm not going to charge youanything. So, you know, I just really want
to share what I know. That's awesome. I thankyou very much on behalf of anyone and everyone

(33:41):
that will take advantage of that in the futureand already has because that is awesome. You're
leading by example and you're living proof ofwhat inner healing can do. So why, what made
you think that we could bring this to the nationallevel because it's really hard to get it to

(34:01):
an individual in the first place, right? Right.You know, I don't know that we can, but
I believe in people. I believe that every singlebaby that's born is an innocent, beautiful,
loving, pure being. And then we get writtenon and we have to undo the writing, right?
So I think that people are essentially good.I think that when they're exposed to goodness,

(34:26):
when they're exposed to the skills of how toheal themselves and how to help heal the world
around them, that they want to. I've never metone person ever or worked with one person ever
who wanted more hatred and violence in theirlife if they had the opportunity for love
and understanding and feeling valued and includedand wanted. And when people have a chance to

(34:50):
heal, they... always become more loving. Theynever become more hateful and violent. They're
healing from the violence. They're healing fromthe hate. They're healing from the dysfunction.
I guess what I think is that if enough peoplecan do the work and learn the skills and get
the perspective, because I think we're missingthat perspective, that our largest institutions,

(35:16):
including government, operate like dysfunctionalfamilies in many ways. that then we have a
chance to address it. It's just like if youcan't identify the bacteria that caused that
disease or that illness, it's really hard totreat. You're just going to treat symptoms
and probably not that effectively. But if youget to the source, you can change and heal.

(35:38):
And I think that's true for psychology and Ithink that's true for a person. I think that's
true for a family and I think it can be truefor a country. So we're just in this together.
Yeah, that's a really good way to put that. I'm right there with you. I believe in people.
I believe in the goodness of people. But it'sreally hard to sometimes whenever you can see
the absolute monstrosities that can come outof nowhere and apparently lead a country. So

(36:02):
that's one of the scary things though is thatwe're dealing with a lot of people in high
places of power that are very hurt in someways, shape and form. And we're trying our
best as a society right now to just kind ofhold it together. So what do you think that
people can do as an individual at this pointin time to kind of maintain their own sanity?

(36:26):
I think it's a really good question becauseI think a lot of people, and I don't have any
numbers, I haven't done any research, but Ithink a lot of people feel like there's nothing
they can do. And I think that's very sad. Andso, you know, part of my message is whatever
you do counts. whatever you do can have a rippleeffect. You don't know who you're going to

(36:48):
affect. You don't know through your act of lovingkindness or teaching somebody something new
that's helpful and healing, what effect that'sgoing to have on their life and who they're
going to become in service of others. And soI think we have to keep hope. mean, I know
that I want to keep hope until I'm not hereanymore. And I want to share that because...

(37:10):
Everything that's been shared with me from otherpeople that's good and helpful and healthy
and wise has changed my life. And we can allbe that for other people. So I would say don't
give up hope. If you really are hurting, findsomewhere to get help from for yourself. You
deserve it. um And you're doing your own healingwork, even if it seems really centered on you.

(37:34):
When there's a society falling apart aroundyou, it is in service of the whole. everything
we do to heal ourselves and help the peoplearound us is in service of the whole. So don't
think that anything you do is too small or insignificant. And I would also, I also like to say this
to people because not everybody can do therapy,can afford therapy, has access to therapy or

(37:59):
wants to do therapy. Do what you love. Dowhat you love. Because that's a gift to you
and to other people. If you love animals, bewith animals. If you love to sing, sing. If
you love art, do art. If you love science, doit. Because that ignites our own life force,
you know, and our life force is connected tolove and belonging. Mm, I love that because

(38:23):
it really just breaks it down back to gettingback to love. Whether we are being loved or
we are showing love in some way, shape or form,even if it's to an activity, People can see
that, they can sense it, they notice it. Andone of the things that I'm also hearing is
the compound effect is a real thing. ah I'msure you've heard of that story and if I

(38:47):
try to say it, it's going to be really, reallybad. But essentially, uh some guy is hitting
a boulder a whole long time and then someonesees him hit it one time one day and it just
cracks all the way through and everything. Andthey're like, oh, wow, he's really strong and
it's... No, he hit it a couple thousand othertimes every other day that you didn't see.

(39:07):
Hmm. I haven't heard that story. That's a goodone. That's a good one. And you know, just
I wanted to just share this real quick becausein all my years being a therapist, and this
goes back to the love theme, in all my yearsbeing a therapist, no matter what anybody's
story is of what hurt them, what happened tothem, what they suffered, what the dysfunction

(39:28):
was that was role model for them, who they'vebecome, what they've done, Every single person's
injuries can be traced back to some harm doneto love and safe belonging. Every single one
of us, our wounds are to love and safe belonging. And the healing is to recreate love and safe

(39:51):
belonging. And if there's one thing that couldheal our country, it would be that. Not easy.
It looks like a far cry from anything happeningright now, but I think we need to know that.
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. It's... Oh, man. If weignore that, it's just going to make it not

(40:14):
only worse, but we're doing such a disservicethat it will eventually implode. Really, I
think. Absolutely. It's tragic. It's reallytragic. We are our own worst enemy. Yeah.
Yeah. Absolutely. So if we tear ourselves apart... and we're our own worst enemy, then no wonder

(40:36):
that the nation's doing so bad because we'reall fighting ourselves and each other at the
same time. Right. And so we have to start somewhere.And so the theme of my book and why I think
it's so timely in this age is that we have tostart at the microcosmic level, ourselves and
our own families and the people we interactwith and the macrocosmic level, which is our

(40:59):
larger institutions because they're interacting.all the time in a way that has never happened
before in intensity with all the social mediaand the technologies. mean, it's, have to
be able to decipher what's healthy for us andwhat's not and begin to keep out what's not

(41:20):
healthy and change it. And that's kind of thehard part really, right? Because we're sitting
here and we're helping, well, I'm trying tonot normalize. but other people are normalizing
the pain and the hurt and stuff. And then wheneverso many other people think that, oh, that's
okay, and then you have the black sheep thatgo, no, that's actually not okay. It's really

(41:45):
hard to fight that narrative. It's really hardto fight that narrative. I talk about all these
dynamics in my book. I talk about what are thedynamics that happen in this kind of a family
structure that is dysfunctional or abusive.And I really spell them out for people so that
they're easy to identify and understand. Andwhat do you do? You play a different part.

(42:06):
You're playing a different part and you speaking.I mean, for me, I think you just accept,
okay, I'll be the black sheep voice becausethat's what's mine to do. Yeah. I mean, in
an essence, if no one will stand up for whatis right and virtuous, who will? If you won't.

(42:28):
It's to be you and me because we can't askother people to do what we're not doing. I
love that. Again, leading by example. Go ahead.I just want to say one quick thing and it's
not guaranteed. I could lead by example. Forme, it's not like I'm trying to lead by example.
I'm just trying to be the best person thatI can be. If that affects you, great. If it

(42:53):
doesn't, that doesn't mean I failed. I'm stilldoing what's mine to do. And there is no guarantee
that anything we do is going to impact everysingle person in a positive way. But we just
have to have the strength to keep going. Yep.It's having the strength for ourselves, the
faith for ourselves and so on. It's honestlya really selfish thing, but in the end, it

(43:19):
turns out to not be. Real quick, we've got alot covered in this episode, but do you think
that... we could have you on in the future tokind of see how the state of the nation is
after this episode. And so then we can kindof be like, hey, do you think that this had
a ripple effect last time? I'm very happy tocome back. I will do whatever you would love

(43:40):
to talk about. I'm there, you know, so yes,this is my passion. Awesome. I love it. Thank
you for that. uh And with that being said, I think we're at a good spot to go ahead and
hit the game show if that's alright with you.Sure. Alrighty. So, Phyllis, since your book
is all about putting America in therapy, let'shave some fun and put some everyday situations

(44:04):
on the couch. I'm going to give you a quickscenario, and it could be personal or cultural
or kind of silly, and you tell us if the patientneeds individual therapy, family therapy, or
group therapy, and maybe a little bit of why.Are you talking about America or we're talking
about a person? I just want to be clear whatyou're. It's who it's they're all kind of

(44:28):
a little bit different. right. All right. Gotcha.OK. So the family is arguing over Thanksgiving
dinner politics. That's happened in my family. Guilty as charged. Gosh. Well. You know,
I love that question because, and this is verypersonal for me as well as I think global,

(44:55):
know, Thanksgiving is about Thanksgiving. And it's so easy to forget that we could just
sit and share what we're thankful for, whatwe're grateful for, and just share that with
each other, and maybe even share our gratitudefor each other or for the things we love about

(45:16):
each other. And instead, we sometimes devolveinto how we do it and who does what and who
said what and who came late or whatever happened.And I think it's going back to the why. Where
are we here? We're here to celebrate Thanksgiving.We're here to be grateful. So I think that's
such a big context that I would say. Like sometimesyou just have to expand out to the biggest

(45:42):
perspective to bring us back to center. So would you say that it would be individual,
family, or group therapy that's needed at theend of that? I would say family. Family. would
say really helping people learn new communicationskills, nonviolent conflict resolution skills,

(46:06):
distress tolerance skills, making eye statements,reflecting back what the other person said
to let them know you really heard them, evenif you disagree. disagreeing without aggression,
you know, and having the desire to actuallycome back together in love as motivation behind

(46:26):
learning all those new skills. Because mostof us in arguments of that kind or any kind,
ah I talk a lot about this, you know, I'vetalked about this in other segments and in
my book, we all want to be right. We all thinkwe're right. And the argument is I want you
to think I'm right and I want you to know thatyou're wrong. and the other person feels the

(46:46):
same way. They believe I'm wrong and they'reright and we're just at loggerheads with each
other. So really, I think family therapy wouldbe the model of really teaching people how
to communicate in a different, more open, moreaccepting, more uh repair-oriented way so that
they can come back together. And when thatdoesn't work, then I think what is required

(47:10):
is probably more individual therapy. oh to delveinto the places where people get stuck and
they can't do that kind of skill with each other. Yeah, that's for sure. I like that. I really
love the idea of focusing on Thanksgiving andthen I love it starting from the bigger and
working all the way back down to the individualif need be. So, number two, social media

(47:35):
doom scrolling at 2 a.m. Do you need to go toindividual therapy or family therapy or group
therapy? doom scrolling at 2 a.m. You know,I'd say individual. If therapy was what was
called for because it's really a problem andit's affecting your life in a negative way,

(47:56):
uh I would say individual. It's like what'skeeping you up at night? m What is the fascination
with the shadow side of human existence? Whatare you getting out of it? What's the after
effect of it? I think that would be an individual inquiry. Awesome. Thank you for that. And

(48:19):
how about whenever Congress is trying to agreeon literally anything? Well, I think I would
say that right now the problem is that thatisn't the goal. That's the problem. So that's
a family of America problem. where the goalis not to work things out, the goal is not

(48:42):
to hear different points of view, the goalis not to respect different points of view,
the goal is to actually just win the argumentone way or another. And so I think, you know,
I talk a little bit in my book, American Therapy,about what it would be like if we brought skilled
mediators um to Congress. really facilitateda conversation, facilitated the ruptures.

(49:08):
And, you know, when people call each other namesor they storm out or they do whatever they
do, um that's really dysfunctional and thatwe would say was dysfunctional in our own homes
or in a classroom or in an office building,um that there's intervention that's designed
to bring them back to their center and havethem listen, not to shame them and blame them,

(49:31):
um stop them. but heal that kind of interactionon a deep level um or even not a deep level.
We're talking about Congress, to just pointem the conversation or the agenda in a different
direction for the good of the American family. And that's something I really stress because

(49:52):
when parents are fighting, it has a terribleeffect on their children. And especially if
they don't stop. and it doesn't get resolvedand it's very aggressive and it's frightening,
children become highly symptomatic. And Ithink one of the things that's happening in
our country is all of the great divides andthe aggression that's being broadcast all over

(50:15):
the news is having a terrible effect on themass population, all of us, whether we're aware
of it or not. Yeah, for sure. And I'd haveto agree with you on that, but Would you say
that that would break down into individual therapy,family, or group? That would be group. That
would be the group. Thank you. uh Next up,a couple fighting over who left the laundry

(50:42):
in the washer for three days.
Gee, nobody's ever experienced that. um Youknow, I think... I think part of it is it
would be couples therapy, of course. But Ithink a lot of times what I've seen with couples,

(51:04):
what I've seen with myself in my marriage isthat when you kind of get really irritated
or argue over some little thing like that, that there's really unresolved stuff underneath
that hasn't been addressed. And so if you'refeeling disconnected from each other or something
happened three days ago that hurt your feelings,and you didn't bring it up and you didn't resolve

(51:27):
it with the other person, then when you seethe laundry and the washing machine and it's
still wet and it's three days old and it's startingto smell, you can get angry over that when
you really needed to resolve something elsethat was more hurtful underneath. Because I
don't know if you have this experience, butI do and I think many people do. Not that
little things can't be irritating because we'rejust human. But when you're a really good

(51:51):
place with your partner, that stuff doesn'tmatter. Nope. So couples therapy it is.
All right. Thank you. And how about the neighbor'sdog won't stop barking at invisible squirrels?
Who goes to therapy for that? you might notgo to therapy. You might go to your neighbor.

(52:13):
You might go to your neighbor and ask themthat they do something about their dog. And
that doesn't work. I I think it's probably nota therapy issue unless you know, that would
be my sense. And it might be going to the cityand saying, you are there ordinances about
noise? And, you know, I'd try the peaceful,friendly approach first. em And m we had a

(52:40):
neighbor when I lived in Santa Fe, which I don'tlive there anymore, but who wanted a farm
on his property in the middle of town. And hehad many, many animals in his very small plot
of land. and the whole neighborhood smelledlike manure. And I lived right behind him.
I could not open my windows. And we all talkedto him. He had no interest in changing what

(53:06):
he was doing. And so finally we all signed apetition and went to the city. Sometimes you
have to take action. know, it's okay to standup for your rights. It's okay to stand up for
what you believe in and hopefully without doingharm, but being powerful. It's okay to be
powerful. Yeah, I love that. It's okay to takeaction whenever it's needed, but don't jump

(53:29):
to conclusions necessarily. Right, like tryto work it out peacefully. Try that because
if that works, yay, win-win. I love it. Andlet's see, I've got one more question, but
it comes after this. So now that you've provenyou can bring therapy to any room, whether

(53:53):
it's the family diner, dinner table, or thetable hall, or the halls of Congress, or the
neighborhood block, which is why today we'regiving you the title of the Nation's Therapist
of Hope. it's to help reflect both your professionalexpertise and the urgent yet hopeful message

(54:13):
that you're bringing for healing America. uhand on that note, I've got to ask Phyllis,
The name of this podcast is Retrieving Sanity,and we explore how all facets of living life
impact mental health. Looking at the incrediblemotley adventures of your life, what does retrieving

(54:34):
sanity personally mean to you today and what'sone practice or perspective you believe is
crucial for anyone on that journey? retrievingsanity for me, and I don't ever say that what
is true for me is true for everyone. You know,we have different paths. um But if my truth
is helpful to you, as many other people's truthshave been helpful to me, I will say that um

(54:58):
remembering what happened to me and doing therapywas absolutely critical to my retrieving my
own sanity. in the process of that, and I alwayshad a deep spiritual connection, um even as
a child. And that really grew when I did therapyand when I began to heal from some of the worst

(55:21):
effects of what had happened to me. And havingthat deep interconnection to my own essence
um was the other huge factor in retrieving mysanity and still is. Because it's an ongoing
process. It's not like you recovered. You'renot done. I'm not done. Anyway, I think it's
a lifelong process. And finding people whoare on your own wavelength, who are not one

(55:47):
up and not one down, but who are really yourequals and share the journey with you. You
know, that is absolutely, for me, has been alsoa critical, critical element of my own retrieving
sanity. And I love the title of your podcast. Well, thank you for sharing all that with
us. And thank you for just giving us even morehope because it really is about kind of just

(56:13):
starting a fire with a spark of hope, right?Right. Right. And you know, it was reading
other people's stories. Originally, I read tonsof books when I was, before I even knew about
psychology or went to therapy. And all thebooks I read were about people reclaiming their
lives from something that had happened thatwas tragic or difficult. And they gave me

(56:35):
hope. Yeah. Hopefully we're able to give awhole bunch of other people hope with this
conversation and the one to follow so Phyllis I thank you very much for being on the show
today, and I'm looking forward to speaking withyou in the future and I really hope that we
can get America in therapy because I think weall need it It's so there with you now. Thank

(57:01):
you so much for having me It's just been anabsolute pleasure and an honor to talk with
you Of course, everyone out there, thank youfor stopping by Retrieving Sanity and listening
to us. And as always, you gotta love yourself,try to love others if you can, but you gotta
love yourself first. And hopefully, you'vegot a little something out of this conversation.

(57:22):
Don't forget to join the Discord, and we willsee you next week. Much love. Shaaaan!