February 15, 2023 • 24 mins
In part 2 of this 2 part episode, Dr. Varela and John Boswell, MSW, LCSW continue their dive into the myths surrounding Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) and Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). These two disorders are often stigmatized and misunderstood by the general public, leading to harmful stereotypes and misconceptions.
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Episode Transcript
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John Boswell, LCSW (00:21):
Hey, this is John Boswell, LCSW, your
friendly neighborhood therapist.
Dr. Lynn Varela (00:26):
Hello, this is Dr.
Varela, LMHC
John Boswell, LCSW (00:29):
and welcome to myths about Narcissist and Borderline
Personality Disorder Part two.
Dr. Lynn Varela (00:35):
Yes, cuz there's too much for just one part.
John Boswell, LCSW (00:37):
Yes.
All right.
So I wanted to start off withnarcissists are always men.
We make you such a bad rep.
Dr. Lynn Varela (00:45):
Yeah, man, people do beat on you guys.
John Boswell, LCSW (00:47):
They really do.
Now, actually, narcissistcould be male or female.
Mm-hmm.
We do know that, but they, statisticallythey're more likely to be male.
Mm-hmm.
, and reason for that is we tendto live in a patriarchal society,
a more male dominated society.
Think about it, if your femaleCEO was behaving the way that most
narcissists do, if they were throwingchairs or would be rating employee.
(01:09):
Would that fly?
No,
Dr. Lynn Varela (01:11):
probably not.
Cuz women would be called a bitchand get kicked out pretty quickly.
John Boswell, LCSW (01:16):
Crazy and all that good stuff.
Now I'm sure it does happen.
Oh yeah.
But it's less likely.
Mm-hmm.
to be socially accepted.
, our first society doesn't really allowthese kind of behaviors from females.
Mm-hmm.
, so typically what we'll see isthat females be diagnosed with
borderline personality disorder.
Mm-hmm.
Not to say that men can'tbe diagnosed with it.
Dr. Lynn Varela (01:33):
Oh yeah.
They they are, but theypresent differently.
John Boswell, LCSW (01:35):
Exactly.
Or kind of the cousin to narcissisticpersonality disorder, history,
onic personality disorder.
Mm-hmm.
, which has its own.
issues in itself.
Yeah.
Around sexism.
Yeah.
, they're trying fill their diagnosis out.
Uhhuh
, Dr. Lynn Varela: I think, I mean, and maybe this is another myth that somebody
can correct me, but there tends to bemore women diagnosed with it because
(01:56):
it's, they're seen as drama queens, whichis more acceptable in women than in men.
Absolutely.
So typically this is why the menwill get that narcissistic diagnosis,
whereas females will get thehistrionic narcissist diagnosis.
Mm-hmm.
, not to say that they're thesame, they do have some very
major differences with them.
Yes.
But a lot of the, his hystericdiagnosis in particular is rooted in
sexism and there's a lot of debate inthe mental health community whether
(02:17):
that diagnosis should even be.
Kept or not, or if whetherit's valid or not, but we're
not gonna get into all that.
Yeah.
Dr. Lynn Varela (02:23):
Yeah.
I guess that's for another session.
. , but yes.
Okay.
So yeah, so there, thereare male and female.
I agree with you, but yes,men are mostly diagnosed.
with it because yeah, there'sthis whole society thing.
But yeah, women can be sneaky.
Women narcissists can be sneaky kid.
(02:44):
They can be under the radar becausejust like back in the days, like
in 18 hundreds, people thoughtthat women didn't kill people.
Yes, we were killing people.
John Boswell, LCSW (02:52):
That was a bit more of it, but yes, and
Dr. Lynn Varela (02:54):
it's correct.
Well, it, it goes along the linethat people really assume a lot of
things about women that aren't true.
Absolutely.
And now, You're not going around.
I'm not saying that women are goingaround killing people and being
narcissist on the, on the down low.
I'm just saying that men, whatevermen can do, women can do too.
John Boswell, LCSW (03:10):
Absolutely.
Why is it that women are typicallydiagnosed with borderline personality
disorder and men going under the radar?
Dr. Lynn Varela (03:17):
Well, because one, I think it's a big part
of it is the sexism thing.
Mm-hmm.
like because there's all these emotionsand because the emotional regulation
is a part of it, because it's not thatthey don't feel their emotions, it's
that they're trying to repress 'em.
So when they finally do come out,they're massively like just so big, big.
They feel so huge to the person.
They feel overwhelmed by the emotion.
(03:39):
And in our society, womencan feel their feelings.
Well, men can't.
. You know, obviously you guys have feelingsto feel, but you know, let's be honest, a
man who starts crying is a pussy . Right?
Not that he is, but that'swhat people will say.
Mm-hmm.
Male borderlines.
They struggle just with thesame symptoms that a female
(04:01):
borderline does, but with a twist.
Usually they'll present differentlybecause they'll go more to anger than
maybe a female borderline will, becauseanger is a one emotion across the board
that is acceptable for both sexes.
Especially men.
It's okay to be angry.
Oh, maybe he, he needs to work onhis anger, but it's one emotion
(04:22):
that men can safely express.
And so men tend to present with more angerand physical aggression in borderline
personality disorder than females.
Not that women can't become physicallyaggressive, but again, it's not
as socially acceptable if a man.
John Boswell, LCSW (04:41):
All right.
That was excellent.
So again, rooted in sexism.
So some of these diagnosis arenot foolproof, it sounds like.
Dr. Lynn Varela (04:48):
Mm-hmm.
, well, I mean diagnosing is, isreally, it's very subjective.
Absolutely.
, like many things.
It's not like we can take your blood, doa test, and oh, well the result is, you
know, you have BBD and it's like, no.
It's based on a, grouping of symptoms.
Mm-hmm.
and well usually a history of trauma,although I have never personally seen
(05:13):
it, but there is a percentage of smallpercentage of people with BPD that
is said that it's not caused by any.
I've never seen those people.
Okay.
But I have to put it out there becausethey do exist, that the documentation and
research has proven that there is a verysmall percentage of people out there that
don't necessarily have any obvious trauma,like that occult, like psychological,
(05:38):
emotional that we don't necessarily see.
But is there, there's apercentage of people that don't
even have that to explain it.
It's just purely thegenetic component of it.
John Boswell, LCSW (05:48):
Interesting.
Mm-hmm.
, you know, now that you mentionedthat, that brings me into
another myth of narcissist thatnarcissists don't have trauma.
And when we do mental healthassessments and diagnosing.
, as Dr.
Varela was saying, it's very subjective.
So we're going off what we are ableto physically observe ourselves.
Yeah.
And what is reported to us.
Dr. Lynn Varela (06:08):
Oh my God, it's so important cuz so many
times things are not old.
Exactly.
We're not mind readers.
John Boswell, LCSW (06:14):
So one of the thing about narcissists, because
they are all about image, they're notnecessarily gonna tell a therapist
if they've even come into the roomto see a therapist for that matter.
Yeah.
But they're not necessarilygonna tell a, the.
Or even tell their loved ones,said, Hey, I had a crappy childhood,
or I was really treated poorly.
So a lot of times, because thingsseem picture perfect, you may think
that that narcissist is really great.
(06:36):
Yeah.
But they really have, again,this secret shame inside them.
Dr. Lynn Varela (06:39):
Yes.
Have a lot.
And actually I've noticed withborder people who have borderline
personality disorder mm-hmm.
, and a lot of people thatjust, let's say PTSD.
Do not necessarily recognizethe trauma they have?
Yes.
People think, oh, if somebody hastrauma, they know they have trauma.
I have said, I don't know how manytimes cuz I've lost count at this point.
(07:00):
Yeah.
You have trauma and they'llbe like, no, I don't.
I have all these symptoms,I have all these issues.
I can't have a stable relationship.
But you know, that's the present day.
That has nothing to do with my childhood.
My childhood was amazing,my parents were great.
And of course whenever we tried to gointo the, the childhood, people are like,
okay, you're about to tell me that myparents are to blame for all my problems.
And I go, no, no, let's not go there.
(07:22):
Mm-hmm.
, I'm not here to blame your.
I'm just here to acknowledge howyour parents were human beings
who made mistakes because there'sintergenerational issues, right?
Which only means that this hasbeen going on for generations.
So since your grandmother, yourgreat-grandmother, et cetera,
et cetera, et cetera, andbecause it's so normal mm-hmm.
(07:42):
and covert, we don'trecognize it as trauma.
People go, oh, well, if I hadabandonment issues, I'd know, but my
parents were with me my whole life.
They came to all mygames, they did all these.
Yeah.
Well, did you emotionallyconnect with them?
Did you feel loved by them?
Well, you know, they're not really big onhugs and I love you and all this stuff.
(08:05):
Mm-hmm.
, you know, that's not a big deal.
But they were physically thereand like, yeah, that's great
that they were physically there,but emotionally they weren't.
And that has more impact than anything.
John Boswell, LCSW (08:17):
Absolutely.
So we tend to normalize things.
Mm-hmm.
, everyone's parents beat them, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's normal.
And then you just come to findout that no, that's not so much.
Dr. Lynn Varela (08:29):
Yeah, that's so cool.
Right, because I'm Hispanic and the goingjoke is that, you know, if your mom's
mad at you, she's gonna hit you witha . Which is a flip flop in English.
You know, Uhhuh, and theywhoop your ass with it.
And we all laugh about it.
Ha ha ha ha.
But that's physical abuse, bro.
It can be, that's physical abuse.
If they're whooping your ass witha shoe, and if you've ever been hit
(08:50):
by a cta, you know, that shit hurts.
It burns.
So it's not like, oh,that wasn't a big deal.
No.
That you felt that?
Yeah.
Yeah.
John Boswell, LCSW (09:01):
Huh.
Okay.
Dr. Lynn Varela (09:03):
So, yeah.
Not to get dark or anything.
No, no.
It's okay.
No, we normalize so many things, andagain, what's normal people like to
say, oh, well normal is x y z normal.
Is anything that you grew up with that.
you saw other people doing, right?
So people think, well, beatingyour kid is not normal.
(09:23):
If your family system beating, you knowtheir kids and they've been doing it
for generations, yeah, that's normal.
Even you having a borderlinepersonality disorder, narcissistic
personality disorder, if there'sgenerations of family members with those
personality disorders, you are normal.
Absolutely.
Having a personality disorderdoes not make you abnormal.
(09:43):
No.
It actually makes you normal.
John Boswell, LCSW (09:45):
Right.
Huh.
So speaking of that, I want totalk about, one of the things I
hear often is that my, my child'sfather typically is a narcissist.
Does this mean that my childis gonna be a narcissist too?
Mm-hmm.
now.
Bad news is that there aresome genetic components Yeah.
To any personality disorder.
Mm-hmm.
. And we know that there's differencesin brain structure, differences
(10:07):
in body chemistry, and thosecould be genetically inherited.
Yeah.
However, a lot of the personalitydisorder goes to environmental as well.
Mm-hmm.
, we talked about that.
Abuse and or trauma.
. So one of the things that's gonnahappen is let's think about, think
about like an alcoholic, and theymay have the gene for alcoholism.
Yeah.
But if they never havea drink, they're good.
Right?
Yeah.
So let's say that that child's fatheror mother who's narcissistic is in her
(10:30):
life and they are receiving the abuse.
This is where you, the quote unquotegood parent or the healthy parent mm-hmm.
gets to kind of step in and your jobis to make sure that your child knows
that the way that this other parentis treating them is not healthy.
This is not acceptable.
They are.
Unconditionally.
Yeah.
The fact that you are that positiverole model, studies have shown that
(10:52):
that is more likely to make themresilient and to bounce back and not
necessarily pick up those qualitiesfrom that unhealthy or unstable parent.
So it's not a guarantee,it's not a death sentence.
It's none of that.
Doesn't mean you're destined tohave raising narcissistic kid.
Mm-hmm.
. They may have sometraits that they pick up.
Cause we pick up all kinds of stufffrom mom and dad and watching.
Dr. Lynn Varela (11:10):
Yeah.
Even the society, which can be.
narcissistic in nature.
Exactly.
Well, the other thing I wannainterject real quick mm-hmm.
is before you race to worry about your kidhaving narcissism, you know, I've noticed
that people use that word very loosely.
Yes.
Very loosely.
Especially the people that they feelhurt by you know, or they just don't
(11:32):
like, it's like it's almost like callingsomebody an asshole nowadays, right?
Yeah.
This person's a narcissist.
So I'd say be careful becausemaybe there isn't even a.
component to it because maybethe guy isn't a narcissist.
Maybe he's just an assholeand maybe you just don't like
him cuz he is your baby daddy.
. And he did you wrong
. John Boswell, LCSW: There's that.
There's that.
(11:53):
Absolutely.
And we're gonna talk about a littlebit about the, how you get a diagnosis,
a formal diagnosis of narciss.
I'm gonna jump to that in a second.
But I just want to emphasizeto you, Empathy is something
that most of us are capable of.
Yes.
It's also something we're taught.
Mm-hmm.
So for instance, you're taught when you'reyoung, don't steal, don't hit people.
These are things that are not nice.
(12:14):
This is where you kind of jump in as theparent once again to teach that child.
This is what it's like tohave empathy for others.
Yeah.
All right.
So that is a key component to being anarcissist, is that lack of empathy.
Yeah.
, you're gonna go ahead and showthat unconditional love and
show that it's not right to bebullied so you don't bully too.
And if, if the, the shame seed is never planted or if it's
(12:38):
planted, it's pulled out, then youwon't develop the personality disorder.
Because if you know your worth, you knowyou have value, you know that you're
loved, and you also know how to balancethat, knowing that you're not the center
of the universe, but that there's otherpeople that you also have to respect
and, and, you know, kind of live thislife and in this world with, it's less
(12:58):
likely you'll ever develop narcissism.
John Boswell, LCSW (13:01):
Absolutely.
So let's say that you thinkthat your child is a narcissist.
Here's the good news.
You can't formally diagnose anyone with apersonality disorder until the age of 18.
Yeah.
Here's why, children areconstantly developing.
They're developing, they'reidentifying their identities.
They're figuring out who they are,and it could really just be a bad
(13:21):
phase that they're going throughand something that they outgrow.
Dr. Lynn Varela (13:24):
Oh, well that and what, what teenager doesn't
look like a na asshole to you.
Exactly.
John Boswell, LCSW (13:30):
Or a borderline.
Exactly.
Dr. Lynn Varela (13:32):
And they're all over the place.
Right, right.
And they're trying tofigure out who they are.
They're trying to figure outtheir hormones, they're trying
to figure out everything in life.
So yeah.
Anybody can look like a personalitydisorder when they're in their teen years.
Exactly.
John Boswell, LCSW (13:45):
I had a client recently tell me about
the concept of I, me, mine.
Mm-hmm.
, and they, he said the narcissiststend to say, Those phrases.
Who else says those phrases?
Two year olds, right?
Oh my God, yes.
. Your two-year-old is not a narcissist.
They're just two
. Dr. Lynn Varela: Well, yeah.
I mean, just some people never goout of that two year old phrase.
That's true.
That's true.
. No, it doesn't make your twoyear old a, a narcissist.
(14:07):
so it's very well, okay.
It's possible that yourchild's gonna outgrow this.
Again, this is where you come in atand be that positive role model, and
you're gonna model healthy behaviors.
You're gonna model healthy boundaries.
You're gonna model respecting yourselfand respecting others for that child.
Mm-hmm.
, they're just as much of you as they arethat narcissistic parent, so you got
a chance there to pull them out of it.
Dr. Lynn Varela (14:28):
Parenting is so key.
So key.
John Boswell, LCSW (14:31):
Yes.
Yes.
. So we continue to develop, and untilabout the age of six, we really
don't start to realize that theworld doesn't revolve around us.
I'm gonna point that out too.
Yeah.
And then we start to kind of developmore empathy for others around that
time and kind of realize, okay, wellit's not always about me all the time.
So your toddler is good.
(14:52):
. It's fine.
Completely on track.
Developmental wise.
All right.
So let's say that you think thatyou are a narcissist or there's
a narcissist in your life.
Mm.
. We can't formally diagnose that yourself.
Yeah, you can, let's say screen for it.
There are certain symptoms, there'scertain criteria, but really only
a licensed trained mental healthprofessional can make that diagnosis.
(15:16):
Yeah.
If you think that yourself or someoneelse in your life is a narcissist, one
of the things you can do is you cango ahead and seek therapy or you can
recommend to that person they get therapy.
Just a little caveat,a true blue narcissist.
Really lack sympathies that are not gonnafeel so bad about being a narcissist.
No.
So if you're feeling badabout it, you likely are not a
full blown narcissist at all.
Dr. Lynn Varela (15:37):
No.
No.
Cuz the narcissist, everything theydo really just affects everybody
around them, not so much them.
I wanna put another caveat.
Yes.
If you're trying to have them go totherapy because you're hoping that
that will fix them, is that nobodywill change unless they wanna change.
Absolutely.
John said a true blue narcissist doesn'tsee a reason to change because for you
to wanna change, you have to see an issuebecause change isn't easy and so you're
(16:02):
not gonna do it unless you want to.
The only times I've ever seen a narcissistcome to therapy is either they have
features, so not full-blown, a courtmandated or they lost everybody and they
want somebody to feel sorry for them.
John Boswell, LCSW (16:18):
And I grip all those.
And the other time I see it is whenthey're trying to get you back.
Dr. Lynn Varela (16:23):
Oh yes, that one too.
John Boswell, LCSW (16:25):
So they'll go ahead and go to therapy and that'll
be, you know, they'll tell theirwife or tell their family, I'm going
to therapy, I'm working on myself.
And they may do one or two sessions, andthat's just to kind of reel you back in.
Once they are challenged by thattherapist, usually they're out the door.
I had one narcissist whocouldn't understand why?
I couldn't understand why it's thatokay for him to choke his wife, mm-hmm.
(16:47):
. Yeah, he would, yeah.
Yeah.
So, We did our, we did two sessions.
He tried to rationalize it to me thatshe kind of had it coming because she
had spent his money gambling and Oh yeah.
I challenged him on itand never saw him again.
. Yeah.
Dr. Lynn Varela (17:05):
Yeah.
Have you ever been coba by a narcissist?
A quack yet?
No.
John Boswell, LCSW (17:09):
No.
Dr. Lynn Varela (17:09):
That's an experience.
Wow.
Yeah.
No, that's always fun cuz when youchallenge them, most times than not,
they will tell you you're a quack.
I had one though, really?
That.
Took away all his smoke and mirrors.
Mm-hmm.
, like we call it gaslighting.
Mm-hmm.
and all the excuses of,yeah, I can hit her.
I don't see the problem.
He literally looked me in the faceand said, well, you're trying to
(17:30):
manipulate me with facts and logic. That's facts of logic of delusion.
Yes.
They live in.
They are right.
You will never be wrong.
You'll never be anything but wrong.
Yes.
And they, they don't care.
You could come to 'em with a video,they'll be like, that wasn't me.
Or you made me do it.
Or somehow it's somebody else's fault.
(17:52):
They deflect.
They truly do not care.
So that's why I tell people there'sonly two ways to really quote unquote
win with a narcissist walking.
or gray rocking, which is basicallyjust being neutral, not reacting.
Mm-hmm.
, which is insanely difficult.
And do not do it unless you knowyou're going to be physically safe
(18:14):
because it can't set them off.
Yes.
And if you don't know that youcan be physically safe doing this.
, if they start going off and are willingto hit you, you will not be safe.
So the only option is towalk away in that case.
But if you can gray walk, which isbasically let them say what they're
gonna say and not personalize ortry to defend yourself or, or try
(18:34):
to just get him to see your point.
The more calm you are, usuallythe more they start exploding.
It's almost as if they pokeat you for you to react.
Mm-hmm.
. Give them a food sourcebecause they feed off of that.
And two, my personal theory that isnot based on any studies really, that I
know of, is that they're almost puttingtheir emotions on you and letting
(18:56):
you play out the emotions for themso that they, you know, other people
can see the situation and the otherone that's gonna be chastised you.
But it's almost like theiremotions are being poured into
you and you have to act them out.
And when you don't, they have no, nochoice but to act them out themselves.
Mm.
. That's an interesting theory.
Yeah.
This, you know, it's justbased on what I've seen.
(19:18):
But again, nobody has done a study,so if somebody wants to feel free
to take my idea and run with it.
You're not doing it though, . No, no, no.
I don't really want to.
No, thank you,
. John Boswell, LCSW: Well, speaking of that, one of the things I
was gonna say too about that iswith the narcissist, a lot of.
If you don't feed into it,they are going to get upset.
(19:40):
Mm-hmm.
, because they're losing powerand control of the situation.
Mm-hmm.
. The other thing with that is thatif you do feed into it, you'll
notice that they get calm and theyget quiet and it's like, oh yes.
Why are yelling?
The more you kind of get excited, the more they calm down.
Mm-hmm.
. That's why my theory, becauseif you are calm, they blow,
but if you blow, they calm.
John Boswell, LCSW (19:59):
Exactly.
And if you notice.
You look at the crazy one, they'relike, you're the one yelling right now.
I'm, I'm chill.
Why are you so upset?
Dr. Lynn Varela (20:05):
Well, the other thing they do is you might notice, I mean,
again, it's not, I can't blank and statethat this is every time with everyone.
Mm-hmm.
, but I've noticed that whatthey'll do is they'll poke you
when there's nobody around.
But it's almost like they knowwhen to poke because they know
that people show up around the timeyou blow cuz they like audiences.
Yes.
And so they will want an audienceso they can then play the victim.
(20:28):
Oh my God, I don'tunderstand why they did this.
Mm-hmm and why they yelled at me.
I, I mean I was just trying to help.
Exactly.
And you're like, you are lookingcrazy cuz you feel crazy.
Like what?
But no, but you just said, No, I didn't.
Or you misunderstood me.
Mm-hmm.
, I don't understand whyyou're acting like this.
You're always outta control.
(20:48):
. Mm-hmm.
always outta control.
You're always outta control.
That's always, you'reoversensitive, you're outta control.
Mm-hmm.
, you're too emotional.
had one which would tell hiswife the equivalent in Spanish,
but I'll try to translate it.
I put 5 cents in.
I've gotten 25 cents.
I put 5 cents, like a 25 cents back.
So it's basically saying, I put a littlebit and look at how much you exploded.
(21:10):
Oh, it's basically, I put a, a littlebit in and you, you gave me back so much.
Mm-hmm.
That was, is uncalled for basically.
Typical gaslighting.
Yes, very much gaslighting.
And if case, people don't know wherethe term gaslighting comes from.
It's from a 19, I wanna say 1930s or 1940smovie about a husband, a husband that.
(21:33):
It's an old movie that husbandwants to keep the wife's money.
And so what he does is he moved thingsaround and I think he was trying
to find a treasure in the basement.
And when he would go downthere, the lights would flicker.
And when he would tell heris when she would ask, oh,
why is the lights flickering?
Why are the lights have dimmed down?
He.
No, there's nothing wrong with the lights.
(21:54):
I don't know what you're talking about.
And if he would move keys,she'd be like, why are the keys
not where they usually are?
Well, they're always over here.
What are you talking about?
So he would make her feel crazy.
Hence why gaslightingis called crazy making.
John Boswell, LCSW (22:07):
Absolutely.
And that just leads me to thelast myth I wanna talk about.
Which is narcissists never tell the truth.
Mm-hmm.
Now, here's the thing.
Narcissists will tell you the truth.
You will have the truest senseof a narcissist when you hear
them start to attack you.
Mm-hmm.
So, yes, Dr.
Varela was asking me, have I have I had a.
A client tell me I'm a quack,yet I haven't had that.
(22:28):
I've dated narcissist though.
Tell me that I'm the narcissist.
Mm-hmm.
, and that I'm an manipulative,controlling projection and projection ex.
Absolutely.
So what they'll do is they'llusually, we'll kind of throw
accusations towards you.
You're cheating, or you're aliar, or you're disrespectful.
And really this is actuallyhow they feel about themselves.
And this is all the shame and guiltkind of come surface what they're doing.
Dr. Lynn Varela (22:48):
And actually, if you want complete truth from a narcissist mm-hmm.
, watch what they.
Yes, watch what they do.
I always tell people.
Listen to everything they,they say, I mean, you take it
with a grain of salt, right.
But you watch what they doand if it, those two things
don't match, the behaviors
John Boswell, LCSW (23:06):
are the truth.
There you go.
And I'd say that for any relationship.
Absolutely.
Dr. Lynn Varela (23:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That, I mean, that's trueeven for people with BPD.
Mm-hmm.
with.
Even without personality disorders,always watch a person's behaviors.
It will always tell you a hundredpercent of the time who they are.
Now it's up to you thoughto believe what you see.
Ah, because now that you have theknowledge, people will go, no, no, no.
But I, you know, this action they did.
(23:31):
Would require me leaving them orknowing that they're a liar or
whatever, and I don't want to face that.
So I'll go with the words.
But then they feel confused and they feellike, you know, like, what, what, what?
Which way should I go?
And it's like, yeah, the confusion isbecause you know what the truth is, you're
just trying to talk yourself out of it.
John Boswell, LCSW (23:49):
We call this cognitive dissonance.
Yes.
Fancy way of saying that you'renot going along with your values
or what you know to be facts.
Do I believe you or mylying eyes , basically.
Dr. Lynn Varela (23:59):
Yeah.
So basically if you see somebody'sbehavior and it doesn't match what
they say, I'm sorry, my friend.
Go with the actions.
There you go.
That and well, they're probably toxicif those two things don't match.
Not every single.
Not every single time, butyeah, definitely hypocritical
. John Boswell, LCSW: Yeah.
Or having their own cognitive dissonance,but that's a whole nother thing.
(24:20):
. Dr. Lynn Varela: Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a whole nother, yeah.
John Boswell, LCSW: But that just about it. (24:22):
undefined
That wraps up our myths aboutnarcissists and borderlines part two.
Thank you for tuning in.
Yes.
And we hope to see well.
See, we hope to have youlisten in again soon.
Yeah.
Thank you so much for followingus, and go ahead and tune in.
Dr. Lynn Varela (24:39):
All right, looking forward to next episode.
Take care.
Hey, this is John Boswell, LCSW, your
friendly neighborhood therapist.
Dr. Lynn Varela (00:26):
Hello, this is Dr.
Varela, LMHC
John Boswell, LCSW (00:29):
and welcome to myths about Narcissist and Borderline
Personality Disorder Part two.
Dr. Lynn Varela (00:35):
Yes, cuz there's too much for just one part.
John Boswell, LCSW (00:37):
Yes.
All right.
So I wanted to start off withnarcissists are always men.
We make you such a bad rep.
Dr. Lynn Varela (00:45):
Yeah, man, people do beat on you guys.
John Boswell, LCSW (00:47):
They really do.
Now, actually, narcissistcould be male or female.
Mm-hmm.
We do know that, but they, statisticallythey're more likely to be male.
Mm-hmm.
, and reason for that is we tendto live in a patriarchal society,
a more male dominated society.
Think about it, if your femaleCEO was behaving the way that most
narcissists do, if they were throwingchairs or would be rating employee.
(01:09):
Would that fly?
No,
Dr. Lynn Varela (01:11):
probably not.
Cuz women would be called a bitchand get kicked out pretty quickly.
John Boswell, LCSW (01:16):
Crazy and all that good stuff.
Now I'm sure it does happen.
Oh yeah.
But it's less likely.
Mm-hmm.
to be socially accepted.
, our first society doesn't really allowthese kind of behaviors from females.
Mm-hmm.
, so typically what we'll see isthat females be diagnosed with
borderline personality disorder.
Mm-hmm.
Not to say that men can'tbe diagnosed with it.
Dr. Lynn Varela (01:33):
Oh yeah.
They they are, but theypresent differently.
John Boswell, LCSW (01:35):
Exactly.
Or kind of the cousin to narcissisticpersonality disorder, history,
onic personality disorder.
Mm-hmm.
, which has its own.
issues in itself.
Yeah.
Around sexism.
Yeah.
, they're trying fill their diagnosis out.
Uhhuh
, Dr. Lynn Varela: I think, I mean, and maybe this is another myth that somebody
can correct me, but there tends to bemore women diagnosed with it because
(01:56):
it's, they're seen as drama queens, whichis more acceptable in women than in men.
Absolutely.
So typically this is why the menwill get that narcissistic diagnosis,
whereas females will get thehistrionic narcissist diagnosis.
Mm-hmm.
, not to say that they're thesame, they do have some very
major differences with them.
Yes.
But a lot of the, his hystericdiagnosis in particular is rooted in
sexism and there's a lot of debate inthe mental health community whether
(02:17):
that diagnosis should even be.
Kept or not, or if whetherit's valid or not, but we're
not gonna get into all that.
Yeah.
Dr. Lynn Varela (02:23):
Yeah.
I guess that's for another session.
. , but yes.
Okay.
So yeah, so there, thereare male and female.
I agree with you, but yes,men are mostly diagnosed.
with it because yeah, there'sthis whole society thing.
But yeah, women can be sneaky.
Women narcissists can be sneaky kid.
(02:44):
They can be under the radar becausejust like back in the days, like
in 18 hundreds, people thoughtthat women didn't kill people.
Yes, we were killing people.
John Boswell, LCSW (02:52):
That was a bit more of it, but yes, and
Dr. Lynn Varela (02:54):
it's correct.
Well, it, it goes along the linethat people really assume a lot of
things about women that aren't true.
Absolutely.
And now, You're not going around.
I'm not saying that women are goingaround killing people and being
narcissist on the, on the down low.
I'm just saying that men, whatevermen can do, women can do too.
John Boswell, LCSW (03:10):
Absolutely.
Why is it that women are typicallydiagnosed with borderline personality
disorder and men going under the radar?
Dr. Lynn Varela (03:17):
Well, because one, I think it's a big part
of it is the sexism thing.
Mm-hmm.
like because there's all these emotionsand because the emotional regulation
is a part of it, because it's not thatthey don't feel their emotions, it's
that they're trying to repress 'em.
So when they finally do come out,they're massively like just so big, big.
They feel so huge to the person.
They feel overwhelmed by the emotion.
(03:39):
And in our society, womencan feel their feelings.
Well, men can't.
. You know, obviously you guys have feelingsto feel, but you know, let's be honest, a
man who starts crying is a pussy . Right?
Not that he is, but that'swhat people will say.
Mm-hmm.
Male borderlines.
They struggle just with thesame symptoms that a female
(04:01):
borderline does, but with a twist.
Usually they'll present differentlybecause they'll go more to anger than
maybe a female borderline will, becauseanger is a one emotion across the board
that is acceptable for both sexes.
Especially men.
It's okay to be angry.
Oh, maybe he, he needs to work onhis anger, but it's one emotion
(04:22):
that men can safely express.
And so men tend to present with more angerand physical aggression in borderline
personality disorder than females.
Not that women can't become physicallyaggressive, but again, it's not
as socially acceptable if a man.
John Boswell, LCSW (04:41):
All right.
That was excellent.
So again, rooted in sexism.
So some of these diagnosis arenot foolproof, it sounds like.
Dr. Lynn Varela (04:48):
Mm-hmm.
, well, I mean diagnosing is, isreally, it's very subjective.
Absolutely.
, like many things.
It's not like we can take your blood, doa test, and oh, well the result is, you
know, you have BBD and it's like, no.
It's based on a, grouping of symptoms.
Mm-hmm.
and well usually a history of trauma,although I have never personally seen
(05:13):
it, but there is a percentage of smallpercentage of people with BPD that
is said that it's not caused by any.
I've never seen those people.
Okay.
But I have to put it out there becausethey do exist, that the documentation and
research has proven that there is a verysmall percentage of people out there that
don't necessarily have any obvious trauma,like that occult, like psychological,
(05:38):
emotional that we don't necessarily see.
But is there, there's apercentage of people that don't
even have that to explain it.
It's just purely thegenetic component of it.
John Boswell, LCSW (05:48):
Interesting.
Mm-hmm.
, you know, now that you mentionedthat, that brings me into
another myth of narcissist thatnarcissists don't have trauma.
And when we do mental healthassessments and diagnosing.
, as Dr.
Varela was saying, it's very subjective.
So we're going off what we are ableto physically observe ourselves.
Yeah.
And what is reported to us.
Dr. Lynn Varela (06:08):
Oh my God, it's so important cuz so many
times things are not old.
Exactly.
We're not mind readers.
John Boswell, LCSW (06:14):
So one of the thing about narcissists, because
they are all about image, they're notnecessarily gonna tell a therapist
if they've even come into the roomto see a therapist for that matter.
Yeah.
But they're not necessarilygonna tell a, the.
Or even tell their loved ones,said, Hey, I had a crappy childhood,
or I was really treated poorly.
So a lot of times, because thingsseem picture perfect, you may think
that that narcissist is really great.
(06:36):
Yeah.
But they really have, again,this secret shame inside them.
Dr. Lynn Varela (06:39):
Yes.
Have a lot.
And actually I've noticed withborder people who have borderline
personality disorder mm-hmm.
, and a lot of people thatjust, let's say PTSD.
Do not necessarily recognizethe trauma they have?
Yes.
People think, oh, if somebody hastrauma, they know they have trauma.
I have said, I don't know how manytimes cuz I've lost count at this point.
(07:00):
Yeah.
You have trauma and they'llbe like, no, I don't.
I have all these symptoms,I have all these issues.
I can't have a stable relationship.
But you know, that's the present day.
That has nothing to do with my childhood.
My childhood was amazing,my parents were great.
And of course whenever we tried to gointo the, the childhood, people are like,
okay, you're about to tell me that myparents are to blame for all my problems.
And I go, no, no, let's not go there.
(07:22):
Mm-hmm.
, I'm not here to blame your.
I'm just here to acknowledge howyour parents were human beings
who made mistakes because there'sintergenerational issues, right?
Which only means that this hasbeen going on for generations.
So since your grandmother, yourgreat-grandmother, et cetera,
et cetera, et cetera, andbecause it's so normal mm-hmm.
(07:42):
and covert, we don'trecognize it as trauma.
People go, oh, well, if I hadabandonment issues, I'd know, but my
parents were with me my whole life.
They came to all mygames, they did all these.
Yeah.
Well, did you emotionallyconnect with them?
Did you feel loved by them?
Well, you know, they're not really big onhugs and I love you and all this stuff.
(08:05):
Mm-hmm.
, you know, that's not a big deal.
But they were physically thereand like, yeah, that's great
that they were physically there,but emotionally they weren't.
And that has more impact than anything.
John Boswell, LCSW (08:17):
Absolutely.
So we tend to normalize things.
Mm-hmm.
, everyone's parents beat them, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's normal.
And then you just come to findout that no, that's not so much.
Dr. Lynn Varela (08:29):
Yeah, that's so cool.
Right, because I'm Hispanic and the goingjoke is that, you know, if your mom's
mad at you, she's gonna hit you witha . Which is a flip flop in English.
You know, Uhhuh, and theywhoop your ass with it.
And we all laugh about it.
Ha ha ha ha.
But that's physical abuse, bro.
It can be, that's physical abuse.
If they're whooping your ass witha shoe, and if you've ever been hit
(08:50):
by a cta, you know, that shit hurts.
It burns.
So it's not like, oh,that wasn't a big deal.
No.
That you felt that?
Yeah.
Yeah.
John Boswell, LCSW (09:01):
Huh.
Okay.
Dr. Lynn Varela (09:03):
So, yeah.
Not to get dark or anything.
No, no.
It's okay.
No, we normalize so many things, andagain, what's normal people like to
say, oh, well normal is x y z normal.
Is anything that you grew up with that.
you saw other people doing, right?
So people think, well, beatingyour kid is not normal.
(09:23):
If your family system beating, you knowtheir kids and they've been doing it
for generations, yeah, that's normal.
Even you having a borderlinepersonality disorder, narcissistic
personality disorder, if there'sgenerations of family members with those
personality disorders, you are normal.
Absolutely.
Having a personality disorderdoes not make you abnormal.
(09:43):
No.
It actually makes you normal.
John Boswell, LCSW (09:45):
Right.
Huh.
So speaking of that, I want totalk about, one of the things I
hear often is that my, my child'sfather typically is a narcissist.
Does this mean that my childis gonna be a narcissist too?
Mm-hmm.
now.
Bad news is that there aresome genetic components Yeah.
To any personality disorder.
Mm-hmm.
. And we know that there's differencesin brain structure, differences
(10:07):
in body chemistry, and thosecould be genetically inherited.
Yeah.
However, a lot of the personalitydisorder goes to environmental as well.
Mm-hmm.
, we talked about that.
Abuse and or trauma.
. So one of the things that's gonnahappen is let's think about, think
about like an alcoholic, and theymay have the gene for alcoholism.
Yeah.
But if they never havea drink, they're good.
Right?
Yeah.
So let's say that that child's fatheror mother who's narcissistic is in her
(10:30):
life and they are receiving the abuse.
This is where you, the quote unquotegood parent or the healthy parent mm-hmm.
gets to kind of step in and your jobis to make sure that your child knows
that the way that this other parentis treating them is not healthy.
This is not acceptable.
They are.
Unconditionally.
Yeah.
The fact that you are that positiverole model, studies have shown that
(10:52):
that is more likely to make themresilient and to bounce back and not
necessarily pick up those qualitiesfrom that unhealthy or unstable parent.
So it's not a guarantee,it's not a death sentence.
It's none of that.
Doesn't mean you're destined tohave raising narcissistic kid.
Mm-hmm.
. They may have sometraits that they pick up.
Cause we pick up all kinds of stufffrom mom and dad and watching.
Dr. Lynn Varela (11:10):
Yeah.
Even the society, which can be.
narcissistic in nature.
Exactly.
Well, the other thing I wannainterject real quick mm-hmm.
is before you race to worry about your kidhaving narcissism, you know, I've noticed
that people use that word very loosely.
Yes.
Very loosely.
Especially the people that they feelhurt by you know, or they just don't
(11:32):
like, it's like it's almost like callingsomebody an asshole nowadays, right?
Yeah.
This person's a narcissist.
So I'd say be careful becausemaybe there isn't even a.
component to it because maybethe guy isn't a narcissist.
Maybe he's just an assholeand maybe you just don't like
him cuz he is your baby daddy.
. And he did you wrong
. John Boswell, LCSW: There's that.
There's that.
(11:53):
Absolutely.
And we're gonna talk about a littlebit about the, how you get a diagnosis,
a formal diagnosis of narciss.
I'm gonna jump to that in a second.
But I just want to emphasizeto you, Empathy is something
that most of us are capable of.
Yes.
It's also something we're taught.
Mm-hmm.
So for instance, you're taught when you'reyoung, don't steal, don't hit people.
These are things that are not nice.
(12:14):
This is where you kind of jump in as theparent once again to teach that child.
This is what it's like tohave empathy for others.
Yeah.
All right.
So that is a key component to being anarcissist, is that lack of empathy.
Yeah.
, you're gonna go ahead and showthat unconditional love and
show that it's not right to bebullied so you don't bully too.
And if, if the, the shame seed is never planted or if it's
(12:38):
planted, it's pulled out, then youwon't develop the personality disorder.
Because if you know your worth, you knowyou have value, you know that you're
loved, and you also know how to balancethat, knowing that you're not the center
of the universe, but that there's otherpeople that you also have to respect
and, and, you know, kind of live thislife and in this world with, it's less
(12:58):
likely you'll ever develop narcissism.
John Boswell, LCSW (13:01):
Absolutely.
So let's say that you thinkthat your child is a narcissist.
Here's the good news.
You can't formally diagnose anyone with apersonality disorder until the age of 18.
Yeah.
Here's why, children areconstantly developing.
They're developing, they'reidentifying their identities.
They're figuring out who they are,and it could really just be a bad
(13:21):
phase that they're going throughand something that they outgrow.
Dr. Lynn Varela (13:24):
Oh, well that and what, what teenager doesn't
look like a na asshole to you.
Exactly.
John Boswell, LCSW (13:30):
Or a borderline.
Exactly.
Dr. Lynn Varela (13:32):
And they're all over the place.
Right, right.
And they're trying tofigure out who they are.
They're trying to figure outtheir hormones, they're trying
to figure out everything in life.
So yeah.
Anybody can look like a personalitydisorder when they're in their teen years.
Exactly.
John Boswell, LCSW (13:45):
I had a client recently tell me about
the concept of I, me, mine.
Mm-hmm.
, and they, he said the narcissiststend to say, Those phrases.
Who else says those phrases?
Two year olds, right?
Oh my God, yes.
. Your two-year-old is not a narcissist.
They're just two
. Dr. Lynn Varela: Well, yeah.
I mean, just some people never goout of that two year old phrase.
That's true.
That's true.
. No, it doesn't make your twoyear old a, a narcissist.
(14:07):
so it's very well, okay.
It's possible that yourchild's gonna outgrow this.
Again, this is where you come in atand be that positive role model, and
you're gonna model healthy behaviors.
You're gonna model healthy boundaries.
You're gonna model respecting yourselfand respecting others for that child.
Mm-hmm.
, they're just as much of you as they arethat narcissistic parent, so you got
a chance there to pull them out of it.
Dr. Lynn Varela (14:28):
Parenting is so key.
So key.
John Boswell, LCSW (14:31):
Yes.
Yes.
. So we continue to develop, and untilabout the age of six, we really
don't start to realize that theworld doesn't revolve around us.
I'm gonna point that out too.
Yeah.
And then we start to kind of developmore empathy for others around that
time and kind of realize, okay, wellit's not always about me all the time.
So your toddler is good.
(14:52):
. It's fine.
Completely on track.
Developmental wise.
All right.
So let's say that you think thatyou are a narcissist or there's
a narcissist in your life.
Mm.
. We can't formally diagnose that yourself.
Yeah, you can, let's say screen for it.
There are certain symptoms, there'scertain criteria, but really only
a licensed trained mental healthprofessional can make that diagnosis.
(15:16):
Yeah.
If you think that yourself or someoneelse in your life is a narcissist, one
of the things you can do is you cango ahead and seek therapy or you can
recommend to that person they get therapy.
Just a little caveat,a true blue narcissist.
Really lack sympathies that are not gonnafeel so bad about being a narcissist.
No.
So if you're feeling badabout it, you likely are not a
full blown narcissist at all.
Dr. Lynn Varela (15:37):
No.
No.
Cuz the narcissist, everything theydo really just affects everybody
around them, not so much them.
I wanna put another caveat.
Yes.
If you're trying to have them go totherapy because you're hoping that
that will fix them, is that nobodywill change unless they wanna change.
Absolutely.
John said a true blue narcissist doesn'tsee a reason to change because for you
to wanna change, you have to see an issuebecause change isn't easy and so you're
(16:02):
not gonna do it unless you want to.
The only times I've ever seen a narcissistcome to therapy is either they have
features, so not full-blown, a courtmandated or they lost everybody and they
want somebody to feel sorry for them.
John Boswell, LCSW (16:18):
And I grip all those.
And the other time I see it is whenthey're trying to get you back.
Dr. Lynn Varela (16:23):
Oh yes, that one too.
John Boswell, LCSW (16:25):
So they'll go ahead and go to therapy and that'll
be, you know, they'll tell theirwife or tell their family, I'm going
to therapy, I'm working on myself.
And they may do one or two sessions, andthat's just to kind of reel you back in.
Once they are challenged by thattherapist, usually they're out the door.
I had one narcissist whocouldn't understand why?
I couldn't understand why it's thatokay for him to choke his wife, mm-hmm.
(16:47):
. Yeah, he would, yeah.
Yeah.
So, We did our, we did two sessions.
He tried to rationalize it to me thatshe kind of had it coming because she
had spent his money gambling and Oh yeah.
I challenged him on itand never saw him again.
. Yeah.
Dr. Lynn Varela (17:05):
Yeah.
Have you ever been coba by a narcissist?
A quack yet?
No.
John Boswell, LCSW (17:09):
No.
Dr. Lynn Varela (17:09):
That's an experience.
Wow.
Yeah.
No, that's always fun cuz when youchallenge them, most times than not,
they will tell you you're a quack.
I had one though, really?
That.
Took away all his smoke and mirrors.
Mm-hmm.
, like we call it gaslighting.
Mm-hmm.
and all the excuses of,yeah, I can hit her.
I don't see the problem.
He literally looked me in the faceand said, well, you're trying to
(17:30):
manipulate me with facts and logic. That's facts of logic of delusion.
Yes.
They live in.
They are right.
You will never be wrong.
You'll never be anything but wrong.
Yes.
And they, they don't care.
You could come to 'em with a video,they'll be like, that wasn't me.
Or you made me do it.
Or somehow it's somebody else's fault.
(17:52):
They deflect.
They truly do not care.
So that's why I tell people there'sonly two ways to really quote unquote
win with a narcissist walking.
or gray rocking, which is basicallyjust being neutral, not reacting.
Mm-hmm.
, which is insanely difficult.
And do not do it unless you knowyou're going to be physically safe
(18:14):
because it can't set them off.
Yes.
And if you don't know that youcan be physically safe doing this.
, if they start going off and are willingto hit you, you will not be safe.
So the only option is towalk away in that case.
But if you can gray walk, which isbasically let them say what they're
gonna say and not personalize ortry to defend yourself or, or try
(18:34):
to just get him to see your point.
The more calm you are, usuallythe more they start exploding.
It's almost as if they pokeat you for you to react.
Mm-hmm.
. Give them a food sourcebecause they feed off of that.
And two, my personal theory that isnot based on any studies really, that I
know of, is that they're almost puttingtheir emotions on you and letting
(18:56):
you play out the emotions for themso that they, you know, other people
can see the situation and the otherone that's gonna be chastised you.
But it's almost like theiremotions are being poured into
you and you have to act them out.
And when you don't, they have no, nochoice but to act them out themselves.
Mm.
. That's an interesting theory.
Yeah.
This, you know, it's justbased on what I've seen.
(19:18):
But again, nobody has done a study,so if somebody wants to feel free
to take my idea and run with it.
You're not doing it though, . No, no, no.
I don't really want to.
No, thank you,
. John Boswell, LCSW: Well, speaking of that, one of the things I
was gonna say too about that iswith the narcissist, a lot of.
If you don't feed into it,they are going to get upset.
(19:40):
Mm-hmm.
, because they're losing powerand control of the situation.
Mm-hmm.
. The other thing with that is thatif you do feed into it, you'll
notice that they get calm and theyget quiet and it's like, oh yes.
Why are yelling?
The more you kind of get excited, the more they calm down.
Mm-hmm.
. That's why my theory, becauseif you are calm, they blow,
but if you blow, they calm.
John Boswell, LCSW (19:59):
Exactly.
And if you notice.
You look at the crazy one, they'relike, you're the one yelling right now.
I'm, I'm chill.
Why are you so upset?
Dr. Lynn Varela (20:05):
Well, the other thing they do is you might notice, I mean,
again, it's not, I can't blank and statethat this is every time with everyone.
Mm-hmm.
, but I've noticed that whatthey'll do is they'll poke you
when there's nobody around.
But it's almost like they knowwhen to poke because they know
that people show up around the timeyou blow cuz they like audiences.
Yes.
And so they will want an audienceso they can then play the victim.
(20:28):
Oh my God, I don'tunderstand why they did this.
Mm-hmm and why they yelled at me.
I, I mean I was just trying to help.
Exactly.
And you're like, you are lookingcrazy cuz you feel crazy.
Like what?
But no, but you just said, No, I didn't.
Or you misunderstood me.
Mm-hmm.
, I don't understand whyyou're acting like this.
You're always outta control.
(20:48):
. Mm-hmm.
always outta control.
You're always outta control.
That's always, you'reoversensitive, you're outta control.
Mm-hmm.
, you're too emotional.
had one which would tell hiswife the equivalent in Spanish,
but I'll try to translate it.
I put 5 cents in.
I've gotten 25 cents.
I put 5 cents, like a 25 cents back.
So it's basically saying, I put a littlebit and look at how much you exploded.
(21:10):
Oh, it's basically, I put a, a littlebit in and you, you gave me back so much.
Mm-hmm.
That was, is uncalled for basically.
Typical gaslighting.
Yes, very much gaslighting.
And if case, people don't know wherethe term gaslighting comes from.
It's from a 19, I wanna say 1930s or 1940smovie about a husband, a husband that.
(21:33):
It's an old movie that husbandwants to keep the wife's money.
And so what he does is he moved thingsaround and I think he was trying
to find a treasure in the basement.
And when he would go downthere, the lights would flicker.
And when he would tell heris when she would ask, oh,
why is the lights flickering?
Why are the lights have dimmed down?
He.
No, there's nothing wrong with the lights.
(21:54):
I don't know what you're talking about.
And if he would move keys,she'd be like, why are the keys
not where they usually are?
Well, they're always over here.
What are you talking about?
So he would make her feel crazy.
Hence why gaslightingis called crazy making.
John Boswell, LCSW (22:07):
Absolutely.
And that just leads me to thelast myth I wanna talk about.
Which is narcissists never tell the truth.
Mm-hmm.
Now, here's the thing.
Narcissists will tell you the truth.
You will have the truest senseof a narcissist when you hear
them start to attack you.
Mm-hmm.
So, yes, Dr.
Varela was asking me, have I have I had a.
A client tell me I'm a quack,yet I haven't had that.
(22:28):
I've dated narcissist though.
Tell me that I'm the narcissist.
Mm-hmm.
, and that I'm an manipulative,controlling projection and projection ex.
Absolutely.
So what they'll do is they'llusually, we'll kind of throw
accusations towards you.
You're cheating, or you're aliar, or you're disrespectful.
And really this is actuallyhow they feel about themselves.
And this is all the shame and guiltkind of come surface what they're doing.
Dr. Lynn Varela (22:48):
And actually, if you want complete truth from a narcissist mm-hmm.
, watch what they.
Yes, watch what they do.
I always tell people.
Listen to everything they,they say, I mean, you take it
with a grain of salt, right.
But you watch what they doand if it, those two things
don't match, the behaviors
John Boswell, LCSW (23:06):
are the truth.
There you go.
And I'd say that for any relationship.
Absolutely.
Dr. Lynn Varela (23:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That, I mean, that's trueeven for people with BPD.
Mm-hmm.
with.
Even without personality disorders,always watch a person's behaviors.
It will always tell you a hundredpercent of the time who they are.
Now it's up to you thoughto believe what you see.
Ah, because now that you have theknowledge, people will go, no, no, no.
But I, you know, this action they did.
(23:31):
Would require me leaving them orknowing that they're a liar or
whatever, and I don't want to face that.
So I'll go with the words.
But then they feel confused and they feellike, you know, like, what, what, what?
Which way should I go?
And it's like, yeah, the confusion isbecause you know what the truth is, you're
just trying to talk yourself out of it.
John Boswell, LCSW (23:49):
We call this cognitive dissonance.
Yes.
Fancy way of saying that you'renot going along with your values
or what you know to be facts.
Do I believe you or mylying eyes , basically.
Dr. Lynn Varela (23:59):
Yeah.
So basically if you see somebody'sbehavior and it doesn't match what
they say, I'm sorry, my friend.
Go with the actions.
There you go.
That and well, they're probably toxicif those two things don't match.
Not every single.
Not every single time, butyeah, definitely hypocritical
. John Boswell, LCSW: Yeah.
Or having their own cognitive dissonance,but that's a whole nother thing.
(24:20):
. Dr. Lynn Varela: Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a whole nother, yeah.
John Boswell, LCSW: But that just about it. (24:22):
undefined
That wraps up our myths aboutnarcissists and borderlines part two.
Thank you for tuning in.
Yes.
And we hope to see well.
See, we hope to have youlisten in again soon.
Yeah.
Thank you so much for followingus, and go ahead and tune in.
Dr. Lynn Varela (24:39):
All right, looking forward to next episode.
Take care.
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