March 19, 2023 • 22 mins
Dr. Lynn Varela and John Boswell, LCSW discuss the concept of the "inner child" and its impact on our lives. They explore how childhood experiences shape our beliefs, behaviors, and relationships. Tune in to gain a deeper understanding.
Discussed: -John Bowlby -Jerold Jay Kreisman, Hal Straus - I Hate You Don't Leave Me -The Assertiveness Guide for Women: How to Communicate Your Needs, Set Healthy Boundaries, and Transform Your Relationships - Book by Julie de Azevedo Hanks
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John Boswell, LCSW (00:22):
Howdy folks.
This is John Boswell, licensedpsychotherapist and certified
personality disorder treatmentprovider here, along with my colleague.
Dr. Lynn Varela (00:31):
Dr.
Lynn Varela, a licensed mentalhealth counselor who specializes
in treating people with borderlinepersonality disorder and complex PTSD.
John Boswell, LCSW (00:41):
Awesome salsa.
Today we would talk to you aboutnarcissistic personality disorder and
borderline personality disorder and how itties into what we call attachment styles.
Dr. Lynn Varela (00:51):
So attachment started John Bowlby he is the father
of attachment theory and he has come upwith four different styles of attachment.
There probably are other peoplewho have come up with other styles.
There's probably more than just four outthere at this point, cuz his research was,
I wanna say in the sixties and seventies.
So if you know somebody or atherapist who's discussed this and
(01:14):
has told you there's more than four,that is fantastic, but we're just
gonna go with the four for today.
So there's secure attachment,which kind of makes sense.
It's, you know, they're easily acceptingof trusting love, you know, they can't.
close to others with ease.
You know, they don't go, oh, you love me.
Ah, go away.
No, they, they're, they're okay withyou loving them and them loving you.
(01:37):
Then there's an attachment thatis anxious, so it's insecure.
They have fear of abandonment.
They need constant reassurance andvalidation, so, This push pull.
Come here, come here,come here, come here.
I want you close to me.
Well, wait, wait, wait, wait.
I don't know.
Go, wait, go, wait, go wait.
Oh my God.
No, but wait, you're gonna leave me.
And then there's avoided attachment,which is fear of intimacy,
(01:58):
difficult, getting close topeople and the distrust of others.
And then there's the fearful avoidedattachment, which is the combination of
anxious and avoidant attachment style.
. And so those are the four main ones thatwere proposed early on in psychotherapy.
Would, do you wanna add anything to that?
John Boswell, LCSW (02:18):
No, that was actually great.
. Yeah, it's pretty, you nailed it.
Dr. Lynn Varela (02:21):
Straightforward.
Yeah.
Pretty straightforward.
Yeah.
I mean, and, and in my experiencewhen I have people do a book that's
called The Assertive Guide forWomen part of what they go over is
the different attachment styles.
I mean, I have multiple books that do talkabout attachment cuz it's a big thing for
people that I work with that have BPD.
And it's surprising, but people will havemore than one attachment style at times.
John Boswell, LCSW (02:44):
Absolutely.
I wanted to point out too is thatjust because you may have one or
more than one of these attachmentstyles does not mean that you're
gonna be borderline or narcissistic.
Mm-hmm.
It's actually the majority of us thathave one of these unhealthy attachment
styles don't develop a personalitydisorder at all, however, And in
paradox, most of the people we seeof personality disorders tend to have
(03:06):
one of these unhealthy attachment
Dr. Lynn Varela (03:08):
styles, which leads to the coping mechanism cuz with with
borderline personality disorder andthe DSM, one of the criteria that is
needed to meet, you know, the diagnosisis that you have to have abandonment.
Which usually goes with theavoidance, the fearful you know,
and the anxious attachment styles.
It's the, oh God, you're gonna leave me.
(03:30):
I need to get you back in.
How do I do this?
Oh, now that you're close to me, go away.
Go away, go away.
So it's very much at the core forpretty much every person I've treated
with borderline personality disorder.
But like John says, you know,obviously we don't live in absolute.
Just because you have attachment issuesdoesn't mean a hundred percent you're
gonna have a personality disorder.
(03:51):
It could be that you have features.
It could just be that you have PTSD.
It could just be that this is somethingthat you need to work on on its own,
and you just need to work on theattachment stuff and you'll move on.
John Boswell, LCSW (04:01):
And wanna point out too, , I've had a lot of people
gimme some flack online about this,but the majority of us don't have
personality disorders are actuallypretty rare within the population.
That's not to say that there'snot a lot of people, cause
it's a big population in the US
Dr. Lynn Varela (04:15):
right?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So 2% can be millions of people,
John Boswell, LCSW (04:18):
right?
But majority of us willdevelop some kind of other.
Mental health issue, if anything.
Mm.
If one at all, but not necessarilya personality disorder.
Dr. Lynn Varela (04:27):
I mean, and then there's also the theory that
I've heard that everybody hasfeatures of personality disorder.
It doesn't mean that you're diagnosableas having a personality disorder.
Like if you live in a culture thathas very narcissistic tendencies,
you can have narcissisticbehaviors, but not be a narciss.
. John Boswell, LCSW: Absolutely.
I find a lot of people get that confused.
(04:49):
So when we talk about features,we're talking about like Dr.
Lynn said tendencies or traits,features, things like that.
Yeah.
Behaviors.
Right.
But to actually meet the true blue,in essence, narcissist personality
disorder or borderline personalitydisorder diagnosis, there's certain
criteria that you have to meet.
Mm-hmm.
. It's not easily given out.
Oh, no, no.
(05:09):
. And that's why when people come to meand go, oh, my partner's a narcissist.
Oh, let's, let's not throw thatword out cuz it's like a a word
everybody loves throwing out.
It's aka, this person's an asshole,therefore they're a narcissist.
And I tell people, well, no,maybe they're just an asshole.
Maybe they're not an narcissist.
I said, and then I always specify,well, if this person is a true
(05:30):
narcissist that can be diagnosed,this is what the behavior would look
like now, just because they, parts ofthis behavior, or they have this one
behavior, does that mean you have MPD?
You know, you don't qualify for that.
That's why you have to, Ithink you have to meet five
out of the nine qualifications.
You got it five outta nine.
So just because you have one,okay, you're a jerk, but it
(05:51):
doesn't make you a narcissist.
John Boswell, LCSW (05:52):
And we wanna make sure that that is not better
accounted for by another diagnosis.
Mm-hmm.
. So, for instance, if.
. I tend to get hoity and narcissisticwhen I'm drunk, but only when I'm
drunk then yeah, it may not be that.
Or if I have dementia or a headinjury, I may act differently
than I used to act as well.
So there's a couple factors we lookin and we always encourage people
(06:13):
not to do a layman's diagnosis.
Mm-hmm.
Always go ahead and seek help.
Seek help from professional.
And what's most important reallyis just how are you being.
, are you okay with the way you're beingtreated, whether they're narcissistic
or not, or borderline or not?
Mm-hmm.
, that's what
Dr. Lynn Varela (06:28):
it comes down to.
Oh, you definitely haveto rule out the medical.
Thanks for bringing that up, becausethere are medical conditions that can
mimic a, a mental health disorder.
Absolutely.
Like a TBI, a traumatic brain injury.
I have seen people who, who had nomental health issues, no problem,
had great relationship with theirwife, and then they got into a
motorcycle accident that hit a certainpart of their head in the front.
(06:51):
And this person now, There was domesticviolence, there was a lot of other
issues that had never been present.
But really it's not a mental health issue.
I mean, I was treating him becauseI was, you know, presented as mental
health, but it was really rootedin that there was brain damage.
John Boswell, LCSW (07:06):
Yeah.
Even something as common asbipolar disorder could look like.
Narcissistic personality disorderwhile the person's and mania
when they're the up phase.
Dr. Lynn Varela (07:14):
Mm-hmm.
, even addiction can look like narcissism.
Absolutely.
Very much so.
Yes.
So then if we're gonna talk aboutattachment styles, as I see it,
is that there were certain needsthat we had that were not met.
And so there's various peoplethroughout the history of psychology
that have spoken about needs andnot being met and what can happen.
You know, starting with Freud and hiswas always very sexual cuz everything was
(07:38):
Freud was always sexual . And then youhave, in 1943 you have Maslow, which is
kind of the gold standard I want to say.
Say, I don't know if somebody has come upafter him, but it was pretty much what we
were taught in our master's program as agold standard with his hierarchy of needs.
John Boswell, LCSW (07:53):
Yes.
Yes.
And seems to be the one that makesthe most sense to me, frankly.
Dr. Lynn Varela (07:57):
Yes.
It makes so much sense.
And so basically, Maslow came upwith this hierarchy of needs that,
you know, you start with the lowest,which is your physiological needs.
So your food, water,shelter that we all know.
And then you have safety needs.
You know, I need to know.
Say from harm that that things arepredictable, that they're stable.
That's why if you have a therapistthat's seeing your children, they're
always gonna say that routinestability, predictability is so key.
(08:20):
Because if we know what's coming, if wefeel safe, if we know that, you know,
back in caveman time we were in that caveand I don't know, the lion or whatever,
couldn't get to us, we can then thrive.
We can do the arts, we can.
I don't know.
Think about what is our purpose.
You know, the higher thoughtprocesses can happen.
If we feel safe, then afterthat is our love need.
(08:42):
So you need for love,affection, intimacy, friendship.
. Then the level after that is esteem needs,which is self-respect, achieve prestige.
And then the last stage thatI personally think is always
ongoing is self-actualization.
So self-fulfillment desirefor truth and wisdom.
The, and this is always ongoingbecause what fulfills you in your
(09:03):
twenties, it's not gonna be whatfulfills you in your forties, right?
Because god knows midlifecrisis are a thing.
Absolutely.
And.
You know the serious questions ofwhat's my purpose and what do I
do in the second half of my life?
Really start hitting andso what will fulfill you is
completely vastly different.
Now, the attachmentissues begin how I see it.
(09:26):
in safety needs.
You know, the need to attach to you tofeel the stability and the predictability
of our relationship that you're here.
Whether I'm mad, whether I'm crying,whether it's a bad day, whether
it's a good day, you're there.
Yes, nobody's perfect and wemake mistakes, but overall,
it's okay to feel my emotions.
(09:46):
It's okay to have a bad day.
It's, it's okay that you're notphysically here because you're in the
kitchen and I'm in the living room.
But I know that if I cry foryou, that that need for love
and attention will be met.
And it's also about mirroring andvalidating that the parent's gonna say,
oh, you know, I love how you look withthat tutu always on, that you look so cute
(10:08):
and with your uniqueness and that you.
Sense of fashion that maybe nobody elsehas just like you, but it's amazing and
it's great and it's fantastic to see.
And if that's early on with those loveneeds, then I learned to validate myself.
I love, I learned to know my worthand that I wore the two too, and
I didn't do anything with it.
(10:29):
You know, I'm not gonna become agrand battle or anything with it,
but it's just how I wanna wear it.
But just because I'm me, I have worth and.
When that needs, because physiologicalneeds are very important too.
They, they are.
If you don't have food, water,then you're in survival mode.
And obviously everything else is kindof disrupted right then and there,
but the love needs are so ingrainedwith the attachment cuz as people who
(10:52):
had lots of money they had the bestschools, they had the best clothes,
they had filet mignon for dinner, andthey did not have their love needs met.
And so having those physiologicalneeds met was important and was good.
And it was a foundation, but it didnot, i, it did not insulate them
from the harm that the lack of love.
(11:13):
caused,
John Boswell, LCSW (11:14):
absolutely.
And there could be, as Dr.
Lynn was saying, the oppositeextremes of overcompensating.
Mm-hmm.
. So I worked once with a patient who wasborderline or had borderline personality
disorder and she had seven children.
Hmm.
And.
, all for children were diagnosedwith some kind of disability.
Mm-hmm.
Whether they all had disabilitiesor not was very subjective.
(11:36):
Mm-hmm.
. But she made sure they got the diagnosis,she made them completely dependent on her.
Mm-hmm.
So she would often complainto me, you know, these kids
can't do anything without me.
He's 16 and he can't evenmicrowave food for myself and
he doesn't know how to do it.
Yeah.
But, In the same token, she wasenabling them to do these things,
and I wanted them to be dependenton her learned helplessness.
Absolutely.
(11:56):
And she told me that, well, myparents were the complete opposite.
Mm.
And I was 13 and drinking anddrugging and smoking and having sex,
and I could do whatever I wanted.
And they had no attachmentto me whatsoever.
They didn't care what I did.
They didn't look out for me.
So I tried to do the opposite and makesure I protect my children at all costs.
Dr. Lynn Varela (12:14):
Yeah, and that happens very commonly that people recognize,
Hey, my upbringing was not healthy,so I'm just gonna do the opposite.
The problem is, and what I tell clientsthat they might not be catching is,
what if your parents did the polaropposite of what their parents did?
Then now you're reverting back towhat generations ago were doing.
John Boswell, LCSW (12:33):
Ooh, that's trippy.
. . I never thought of it that way.
Dr. Lynn Varela (12:36):
Yeah.
Cuz we're not the first generationto think, wow, my parents
might not have done great.
Let me do the opposite of this.
Yeah.
And so how many times of us doingopposite, we're doing something from the
past generations without even knowing it.
And that's why I tell people, don't shameyourself about your parenting because.
. I don't think any of usreally know what we're doing.
No.
We all gonna make mistakes.
Mm-hmm.
, it's just as long as you try to dothe best you can and you know, kind
(13:00):
of learn from those mistakes of like,oh, that didn't work with this child.
Let me not do it again.
And maybe go to therapy if yourecognize that you had unhealthy
upbringing so that you can.
With an outsider who can see the,you know, differentiate the trees
from the forest can go, well,have you noticed this and that?
And how about we tweak this and that sothat you can be the best parent as you
(13:22):
can within you know, your abilities.
Because Right, we don'tknow what we don't know.
John Boswell, LCSW (13:27):
And that desire or that Tennessee to go
in extremes is not only common ofpeople with personality disorders.
Mm-hmm.
. People who grew up indysfunctional families.
Oh yeah.
, we all do it.
Yeah.
Dr. Lynn Varela (13:38):
Yeah, that's, yes.
That's why I say it's so normal.
Absolutely.
So yeah, some of these things that wesay definitely will apply to personality
disorders, but they can apply to anybody.
And it doesn't mean that youhave BPD or MPD Absolutely.
Or any other personality disordercuz like we said, the percentage of
the population that can be diagnosedwith it is very little, surprisingly.
Now there can be features because Igrew up in that environment maybe
(14:01):
my parents had full-fledged disorders.
But I developed features of itbecause of the learned behaviors.
Cuz sometimes it's not that wedevelop these copying skills, we're
just copying them from somebody elseand we can unlearn what we learned.
And so if we go into, attachment theoryand Maslow's hierarchy of needs, then
we also need to go into the inner child.
(14:23):
And I get it, most people go, oh,okay, so Kumbaya, let's hug some trees.
You know, inner child, let's do allthis stuff cuz they're like, what is
that new age stuff about inner child?
I'm a grown ass adult, I'm not a child.
And I'm like, I agree,you're a grown ass adult.
And this isn't kumbaya and hugged the,the tree time . It's that there's a
(14:43):
part of you that when that hierarchyof need was not met psychologically and
emotionally, Stuck in that stage, and thatstage is usually very early in childhood.
I see a lot of people that when I dothe inner child work with them, they
see a three year old, a five year old.
I've had people have 13 or 16 year old,but usually a teen years are the rare
(15:05):
day, usually early childhood, which,you know, the first five years, which
in psychology, they always talk aboutthe first five years are the most
important developmentally, you know,for psychology and everything else.
And so, That inner child has to beaddressed in therapy, and so I tell
people, therapy is like taking an onionand looking at the different layers.
(15:27):
And each layer we're really goinginto those different hierarchy of
needs that weren't addressed andhow it affected you psychologically.
Now, we don't sit there and do abook on, well, here's physiological
needs and here's love needs.
You know, for me it would be thatwe're working on the BPD work.
Book that goes into the differentdysfunctional thought processes
(15:47):
that address these different needs.
And then maybe we look at how yourparent had a personality disorder when
you process how that affected you.
And then we go into self-lovewhich is obviously the love,
safety and esteem needs.
And then we, we do the innerchild exercise, which is where
people meet their inner child.
They see where they were frozen.
(16:08):
They take their child with themand they begin to love the child.
Because by loving that child, youare in essence loving yourself.
. And so from there that you begin togrow the child because you begin to
be your own parent and you meet thoseneeds that weren't met in a younger
age, so that as you begin to work on theshame, you now growing with the child.
(16:31):
You're listening to yourself, you'rebeginning to trust yourself and
therefore you're meeting your ownneeds, which is the ultimate power.
If you can meet your own needs, thenpeople become a want, not a need
. John Boswell, LCSW: Oh, I love that.
Mm-hmm.
people become a want, not a meat.
Yeah.
And that, that's, that's so important cuz we want to want
people, I want friends, I want a partner.
(16:53):
You know, I want people cuz we aresocial animals, but if you need
them, then they can control you.
John Boswell, LCSW (17:00):
Wow.
That's heavy.
Mm-hmm.
, what attachment styles would you saythat you mostly see within Borderlines?
Dr. Lynn Varela (17:06):
Anxious avoidant.
A lot of push pull, a lotof, I don't trust people.
A lot of, I keep 'em at a distance,but then I'm the duality within a
person with BPD I want people, Ineed people in my life desperately
to validate my own existence.
But at the same time, I'm absolutelyfearful of people and don't want them
(17:26):
near because they're going to hurt me.
They're going to abandon me,and it's only a matter of time.
John Boswell, LCSW (17:32):
I hate you.
Don't leave me.
Yes.
Dr. Lynn Varela (17:34):
Wow.
Okay.
It's actually, there is a book.
Yes, there is a title.
Yes, there is because it's so.
True.
It's like the person in the way ofthem getting exactly what they want,
because they'll tell you, I want peace.
I want healthy relationships.
I wanna be able to love peoplewithout being quote unquote needy.
But it's them.
(17:55):
It's it's them.
They're the ones keeping themselveslocked in where they are, not
because they want to, but becausethey can't seem to stop themselves
because of their attachment style.
John Boswell, LCSW (18:05):
Mm-hmm.
I'd say within the narcissist weusually see avoidant attachment style.
And that's because the narcissistgrowing up had to kind of
figure out how to compensatefor themselves, love themselves.
I can take care of me.
I wouldn't say love myself,but take care of me.
I don't need anyone's attachmentor approval whatsoever.
Mm-hmm.
And that may have, becausethey had an overbearing parent
who was very cold to them.
(18:27):
Mm.
. Or who's very conditional in their loving.
Yeah.
Or we have some who would do kindof the, the flip side of that,
which is an anxious attachment.
Yeah.
And it's kind.
Okay.
The love is very conditional.
Yeah.
I'll get and give you a hug or I'll tellyou I love you if you hit that home run.
Yeah.
. So I'm always walking around on pinsand needles and I'm afraid I'm gonna
be abandoned now as an adult because,Yeah, , the love is conditional.
(18:50):
It's very, very conditional.
So we'll see that more so withinthe covert narcissist that
that anxious type of attachment
Dr. Lynn Varela (18:57):
style.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But have you ever seen the fearfulavoidant one where they are anxious
and avoidant at the same time?
Oh, no.
Tell me.
Well, I, yeah, I've seen itwith people with borderline
where they have both mm-hmm.
But that's the push pull.
Right.
So what about, what about covert?
Or are they, can they be
John Boswell, LCSW (19:15):
fearful?
Absolutely.
And this is more so the type that you'llsee, that'll be usually an abusive type.
Mm.
And that'll usually go moreso towards the grandiose.
So they'll be, I'm gonna put you downand I'm gonna make sure that you feel
less than so you don't abandon me.
You don't leave me.
Okay.
And then you try to leave me.
It's.
You're leaving me.
You're just gonna abandon me.
You're leaving me like thatafter everything we've had,
we've worked on together.
(19:35):
That's crazy.
Dr. Lynn Varela (19:36):
Yeah, yeah.
So then it's almost like theyproject their own fear onto the
person and make them pay for it.
Because if you made me fear losingyou, I have to make you pay for it.
John Boswell, LCSW (19:47):
Absolutely.
This is your fault.
Okay.
See, if you, you hadn't, you know, Mademe mad by not washing the dishes tonight.
We would never went through all of this.
Huh.
So it's you that keeps enraging me.
I don't wanna be a jerk toyou, but you make me that way.
Right.
Dr. Lynn Varela (20:02):
You know, that's the thing about personality disorders, and
I, again, I don't know all of them, butthe ones I've worked with particularly
borderline, especially narcissists.
Mm-hmm.
. But I find particularly, , Iguess upsetting is that they don't
take accountability for anything.
No.
No matter how much proof you have.
They never, but they demandaccountability from you.
(20:24):
Absolutely.
It's a double
John Boswell, LCSW (20:25):
standard.
It's a double standard.
So Freud called that the observing ego.
Mm-hmm.
And because personality disorders tendto lack those, which is our ability to
reflect, to take accountability, to lookat ourselves and say, you know what?
I kind of messed up there.
Mm-hmm.
because they lack those.
You will see the deflection constantly.
Mm-hmm.
. Well, yeah.
(20:45):
You know, you don't likeit when I talk over top of.
, but hey, you stepped onmy foot the other day.
Mm-hmm.
. Yeah.
So let's talk about that.
Mm-hmm.
, it's like, well, wait a minute,let's stay at what's focused,
Dr. Lynn Varela (20:57):
and I believe what we, modern day people call what Freud called
the observant ego is really insight.
John Boswell, LCSW (21:02):
Absolutely.
That's all it is.
Dr. Lynn Varela (21:04):
Fancy word for insight.
They don't have insight, but the theother thing is they don't want it.
Mm.
Don't want it.
Because if they come to therapy, you.
maneuver to give them the insight.
Absolutely.
They'll maneuver away from
John Boswell, LCSW (21:17):
it.
Absolutely.
So if you're able to get themthrough the door, remember,
desperation is the best motivator.
Yep.
You know what?
My wife and kids are leaving me becausethey say I've been a jerk to them.
Really?
It's not the case though.
They're, they're the ones who'vebeen tripping, but mm-hmm.
they say, I'm gonna, you know, if Idon't go to therapy, they're gonna leave.
So here I am.
(21:38):
And then you may have a little bitof weigh ins, particularly with the
narcissist, but you have to really catchthem at their rock bottom if they're
going to get better and they're gonnastay motivated enough to get better.
Dr. Lynn Varela (21:48):
Yeah.
And you have to get thembefore they reinflate.
Like a puffer fish.
Absolutely.
After that it's a done deal.
But I think we've pretty much covereda good material with attachment
and the needs and the inner child.
I mean, of course this is very surface.
There's so much more to all ofthese theories, but we can always
go into them in another episode.
John Boswell, LCSW (22:08):
Sure enough, we just wanna thank you guys for listening in.
We hope you took something from it.
We will put a.
Or a list of the books that wementioned within the show notes, just
in case you wanna check those out.
Mm-hmm.
. And please hit this subscribe buttonif you like what we talked about today.
Or if there's something youwanna learn more about, please
put inside the comments.
We're always looking at 'em, we'realways looking to improve and
(22:29):
get better, and make sure we're,you know, we're reaching you all.
Dr. Lynn Varela (22:32):
Yes.
All right.
John Boswell, LCSW (22:33):
All right.
Thank you for tuning in.
Take care.
Take care.
Howdy folks.
This is John Boswell, licensedpsychotherapist and certified
personality disorder treatmentprovider here, along with my colleague.
Dr. Lynn Varela (00:31):
Dr.
Lynn Varela, a licensed mentalhealth counselor who specializes
in treating people with borderlinepersonality disorder and complex PTSD.
John Boswell, LCSW (00:41):
Awesome salsa.
Today we would talk to you aboutnarcissistic personality disorder and
borderline personality disorder and how itties into what we call attachment styles.
Dr. Lynn Varela (00:51):
So attachment started John Bowlby he is the father
of attachment theory and he has come upwith four different styles of attachment.
There probably are other peoplewho have come up with other styles.
There's probably more than just four outthere at this point, cuz his research was,
I wanna say in the sixties and seventies.
So if you know somebody or atherapist who's discussed this and
(01:14):
has told you there's more than four,that is fantastic, but we're just
gonna go with the four for today.
So there's secure attachment,which kind of makes sense.
It's, you know, they're easily acceptingof trusting love, you know, they can't.
close to others with ease.
You know, they don't go, oh, you love me.
Ah, go away.
No, they, they're, they're okay withyou loving them and them loving you.
(01:37):
Then there's an attachment thatis anxious, so it's insecure.
They have fear of abandonment.
They need constant reassurance andvalidation, so, This push pull.
Come here, come here,come here, come here.
I want you close to me.
Well, wait, wait, wait, wait.
I don't know.
Go, wait, go, wait, go wait.
Oh my God.
No, but wait, you're gonna leave me.
And then there's avoided attachment,which is fear of intimacy,
(01:58):
difficult, getting close topeople and the distrust of others.
And then there's the fearful avoidedattachment, which is the combination of
anxious and avoidant attachment style.
. And so those are the four main ones thatwere proposed early on in psychotherapy.
Would, do you wanna add anything to that?
John Boswell, LCSW (02:18):
No, that was actually great.
. Yeah, it's pretty, you nailed it.
Dr. Lynn Varela (02:21):
Straightforward.
Yeah.
Pretty straightforward.
Yeah.
I mean, and, and in my experiencewhen I have people do a book that's
called The Assertive Guide forWomen part of what they go over is
the different attachment styles.
I mean, I have multiple books that do talkabout attachment cuz it's a big thing for
people that I work with that have BPD.
And it's surprising, but people will havemore than one attachment style at times.
John Boswell, LCSW (02:44):
Absolutely.
I wanted to point out too is thatjust because you may have one or
more than one of these attachmentstyles does not mean that you're
gonna be borderline or narcissistic.
Mm-hmm.
It's actually the majority of us thathave one of these unhealthy attachment
styles don't develop a personalitydisorder at all, however, And in
paradox, most of the people we seeof personality disorders tend to have
(03:06):
one of these unhealthy attachment
Dr. Lynn Varela (03:08):
styles, which leads to the coping mechanism cuz with with
borderline personality disorder andthe DSM, one of the criteria that is
needed to meet, you know, the diagnosisis that you have to have abandonment.
Which usually goes with theavoidance, the fearful you know,
and the anxious attachment styles.
It's the, oh God, you're gonna leave me.
(03:30):
I need to get you back in.
How do I do this?
Oh, now that you're close to me, go away.
Go away, go away.
So it's very much at the core forpretty much every person I've treated
with borderline personality disorder.
But like John says, you know,obviously we don't live in absolute.
Just because you have attachment issuesdoesn't mean a hundred percent you're
gonna have a personality disorder.
(03:51):
It could be that you have features.
It could just be that you have PTSD.
It could just be that this is somethingthat you need to work on on its own,
and you just need to work on theattachment stuff and you'll move on.
John Boswell, LCSW (04:01):
And wanna point out too, , I've had a lot of people
gimme some flack online about this,but the majority of us don't have
personality disorders are actuallypretty rare within the population.
That's not to say that there'snot a lot of people, cause
it's a big population in the US
Dr. Lynn Varela (04:15):
right?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So 2% can be millions of people,
John Boswell, LCSW (04:18):
right?
But majority of us willdevelop some kind of other.
Mental health issue, if anything.
Mm.
If one at all, but not necessarilya personality disorder.
Dr. Lynn Varela (04:27):
I mean, and then there's also the theory that
I've heard that everybody hasfeatures of personality disorder.
It doesn't mean that you're diagnosableas having a personality disorder.
Like if you live in a culture thathas very narcissistic tendencies,
you can have narcissisticbehaviors, but not be a narciss.
. John Boswell, LCSW: Absolutely.
I find a lot of people get that confused.
(04:49):
So when we talk about features,we're talking about like Dr.
Lynn said tendencies or traits,features, things like that.
Yeah.
Behaviors.
Right.
But to actually meet the true blue,in essence, narcissist personality
disorder or borderline personalitydisorder diagnosis, there's certain
criteria that you have to meet.
Mm-hmm.
. It's not easily given out.
Oh, no, no.
(05:09):
. And that's why when people come to meand go, oh, my partner's a narcissist.
Oh, let's, let's not throw thatword out cuz it's like a a word
everybody loves throwing out.
It's aka, this person's an asshole,therefore they're a narcissist.
And I tell people, well, no,maybe they're just an asshole.
Maybe they're not an narcissist.
I said, and then I always specify,well, if this person is a true
(05:30):
narcissist that can be diagnosed,this is what the behavior would look
like now, just because they, parts ofthis behavior, or they have this one
behavior, does that mean you have MPD?
You know, you don't qualify for that.
That's why you have to, Ithink you have to meet five
out of the nine qualifications.
You got it five outta nine.
So just because you have one,okay, you're a jerk, but it
(05:51):
doesn't make you a narcissist.
John Boswell, LCSW (05:52):
And we wanna make sure that that is not better
accounted for by another diagnosis.
Mm-hmm.
. So, for instance, if.
. I tend to get hoity and narcissisticwhen I'm drunk, but only when I'm
drunk then yeah, it may not be that.
Or if I have dementia or a headinjury, I may act differently
than I used to act as well.
So there's a couple factors we lookin and we always encourage people
(06:13):
not to do a layman's diagnosis.
Mm-hmm.
Always go ahead and seek help.
Seek help from professional.
And what's most important reallyis just how are you being.
, are you okay with the way you're beingtreated, whether they're narcissistic
or not, or borderline or not?
Mm-hmm.
, that's what
Dr. Lynn Varela (06:28):
it comes down to.
Oh, you definitely haveto rule out the medical.
Thanks for bringing that up, becausethere are medical conditions that can
mimic a, a mental health disorder.
Absolutely.
Like a TBI, a traumatic brain injury.
I have seen people who, who had nomental health issues, no problem,
had great relationship with theirwife, and then they got into a
motorcycle accident that hit a certainpart of their head in the front.
(06:51):
And this person now, There was domesticviolence, there was a lot of other
issues that had never been present.
But really it's not a mental health issue.
I mean, I was treating him becauseI was, you know, presented as mental
health, but it was really rootedin that there was brain damage.
John Boswell, LCSW (07:06):
Yeah.
Even something as common asbipolar disorder could look like.
Narcissistic personality disorderwhile the person's and mania
when they're the up phase.
Dr. Lynn Varela (07:14):
Mm-hmm.
, even addiction can look like narcissism.
Absolutely.
Very much so.
Yes.
So then if we're gonna talk aboutattachment styles, as I see it,
is that there were certain needsthat we had that were not met.
And so there's various peoplethroughout the history of psychology
that have spoken about needs andnot being met and what can happen.
You know, starting with Freud and hiswas always very sexual cuz everything was
(07:38):
Freud was always sexual . And then youhave, in 1943 you have Maslow, which is
kind of the gold standard I want to say.
Say, I don't know if somebody has come upafter him, but it was pretty much what we
were taught in our master's program as agold standard with his hierarchy of needs.
John Boswell, LCSW (07:53):
Yes.
Yes.
And seems to be the one that makesthe most sense to me, frankly.
Dr. Lynn Varela (07:57):
Yes.
It makes so much sense.
And so basically, Maslow came upwith this hierarchy of needs that,
you know, you start with the lowest,which is your physiological needs.
So your food, water,shelter that we all know.
And then you have safety needs.
You know, I need to know.
Say from harm that that things arepredictable, that they're stable.
That's why if you have a therapistthat's seeing your children, they're
always gonna say that routinestability, predictability is so key.
(08:20):
Because if we know what's coming, if wefeel safe, if we know that, you know,
back in caveman time we were in that caveand I don't know, the lion or whatever,
couldn't get to us, we can then thrive.
We can do the arts, we can.
I don't know.
Think about what is our purpose.
You know, the higher thoughtprocesses can happen.
If we feel safe, then afterthat is our love need.
(08:42):
So you need for love,affection, intimacy, friendship.
. Then the level after that is esteem needs,which is self-respect, achieve prestige.
And then the last stage thatI personally think is always
ongoing is self-actualization.
So self-fulfillment desirefor truth and wisdom.
The, and this is always ongoingbecause what fulfills you in your
(09:03):
twenties, it's not gonna be whatfulfills you in your forties, right?
Because god knows midlifecrisis are a thing.
Absolutely.
And.
You know the serious questions ofwhat's my purpose and what do I
do in the second half of my life?
Really start hitting andso what will fulfill you is
completely vastly different.
Now, the attachmentissues begin how I see it.
(09:26):
in safety needs.
You know, the need to attach to you tofeel the stability and the predictability
of our relationship that you're here.
Whether I'm mad, whether I'm crying,whether it's a bad day, whether
it's a good day, you're there.
Yes, nobody's perfect and wemake mistakes, but overall,
it's okay to feel my emotions.
(09:46):
It's okay to have a bad day.
It's, it's okay that you're notphysically here because you're in the
kitchen and I'm in the living room.
But I know that if I cry foryou, that that need for love
and attention will be met.
And it's also about mirroring andvalidating that the parent's gonna say,
oh, you know, I love how you look withthat tutu always on, that you look so cute
(10:08):
and with your uniqueness and that you.
Sense of fashion that maybe nobody elsehas just like you, but it's amazing and
it's great and it's fantastic to see.
And if that's early on with those loveneeds, then I learned to validate myself.
I love, I learned to know my worthand that I wore the two too, and
I didn't do anything with it.
(10:29):
You know, I'm not gonna become agrand battle or anything with it,
but it's just how I wanna wear it.
But just because I'm me, I have worth and.
When that needs, because physiologicalneeds are very important too.
They, they are.
If you don't have food, water,then you're in survival mode.
And obviously everything else is kindof disrupted right then and there,
but the love needs are so ingrainedwith the attachment cuz as people who
(10:52):
had lots of money they had the bestschools, they had the best clothes,
they had filet mignon for dinner, andthey did not have their love needs met.
And so having those physiologicalneeds met was important and was good.
And it was a foundation, but it didnot, i, it did not insulate them
from the harm that the lack of love.
(11:13):
caused,
John Boswell, LCSW (11:14):
absolutely.
And there could be, as Dr.
Lynn was saying, the oppositeextremes of overcompensating.
Mm-hmm.
. So I worked once with a patient who wasborderline or had borderline personality
disorder and she had seven children.
Hmm.
And.
, all for children were diagnosedwith some kind of disability.
Mm-hmm.
Whether they all had disabilitiesor not was very subjective.
(11:36):
Mm-hmm.
. But she made sure they got the diagnosis,she made them completely dependent on her.
Mm-hmm.
So she would often complainto me, you know, these kids
can't do anything without me.
He's 16 and he can't evenmicrowave food for myself and
he doesn't know how to do it.
Yeah.
But, In the same token, she wasenabling them to do these things,
and I wanted them to be dependenton her learned helplessness.
Absolutely.
(11:56):
And she told me that, well, myparents were the complete opposite.
Mm.
And I was 13 and drinking anddrugging and smoking and having sex,
and I could do whatever I wanted.
And they had no attachmentto me whatsoever.
They didn't care what I did.
They didn't look out for me.
So I tried to do the opposite and makesure I protect my children at all costs.
Dr. Lynn Varela (12:14):
Yeah, and that happens very commonly that people recognize,
Hey, my upbringing was not healthy,so I'm just gonna do the opposite.
The problem is, and what I tell clientsthat they might not be catching is,
what if your parents did the polaropposite of what their parents did?
Then now you're reverting back towhat generations ago were doing.
John Boswell, LCSW (12:33):
Ooh, that's trippy.
. . I never thought of it that way.
Dr. Lynn Varela (12:36):
Yeah.
Cuz we're not the first generationto think, wow, my parents
might not have done great.
Let me do the opposite of this.
Yeah.
And so how many times of us doingopposite, we're doing something from the
past generations without even knowing it.
And that's why I tell people, don't shameyourself about your parenting because.
. I don't think any of usreally know what we're doing.
No.
We all gonna make mistakes.
Mm-hmm.
, it's just as long as you try to dothe best you can and you know, kind
(13:00):
of learn from those mistakes of like,oh, that didn't work with this child.
Let me not do it again.
And maybe go to therapy if yourecognize that you had unhealthy
upbringing so that you can.
With an outsider who can see the,you know, differentiate the trees
from the forest can go, well,have you noticed this and that?
And how about we tweak this and that sothat you can be the best parent as you
(13:22):
can within you know, your abilities.
Because Right, we don'tknow what we don't know.
John Boswell, LCSW (13:27):
And that desire or that Tennessee to go
in extremes is not only common ofpeople with personality disorders.
Mm-hmm.
. People who grew up indysfunctional families.
Oh yeah.
, we all do it.
Yeah.
Dr. Lynn Varela (13:38):
Yeah, that's, yes.
That's why I say it's so normal.
Absolutely.
So yeah, some of these things that wesay definitely will apply to personality
disorders, but they can apply to anybody.
And it doesn't mean that youhave BPD or MPD Absolutely.
Or any other personality disordercuz like we said, the percentage of
the population that can be diagnosedwith it is very little, surprisingly.
Now there can be features because Igrew up in that environment maybe
(14:01):
my parents had full-fledged disorders.
But I developed features of itbecause of the learned behaviors.
Cuz sometimes it's not that wedevelop these copying skills, we're
just copying them from somebody elseand we can unlearn what we learned.
And so if we go into, attachment theoryand Maslow's hierarchy of needs, then
we also need to go into the inner child.
(14:23):
And I get it, most people go, oh,okay, so Kumbaya, let's hug some trees.
You know, inner child, let's do allthis stuff cuz they're like, what is
that new age stuff about inner child?
I'm a grown ass adult, I'm not a child.
And I'm like, I agree,you're a grown ass adult.
And this isn't kumbaya and hugged the,the tree time . It's that there's a
(14:43):
part of you that when that hierarchyof need was not met psychologically and
emotionally, Stuck in that stage, and thatstage is usually very early in childhood.
I see a lot of people that when I dothe inner child work with them, they
see a three year old, a five year old.
I've had people have 13 or 16 year old,but usually a teen years are the rare
(15:05):
day, usually early childhood, which,you know, the first five years, which
in psychology, they always talk aboutthe first five years are the most
important developmentally, you know,for psychology and everything else.
And so, That inner child has to beaddressed in therapy, and so I tell
people, therapy is like taking an onionand looking at the different layers.
(15:27):
And each layer we're really goinginto those different hierarchy of
needs that weren't addressed andhow it affected you psychologically.
Now, we don't sit there and do abook on, well, here's physiological
needs and here's love needs.
You know, for me it would be thatwe're working on the BPD work.
Book that goes into the differentdysfunctional thought processes
(15:47):
that address these different needs.
And then maybe we look at how yourparent had a personality disorder when
you process how that affected you.
And then we go into self-lovewhich is obviously the love,
safety and esteem needs.
And then we, we do the innerchild exercise, which is where
people meet their inner child.
They see where they were frozen.
(16:08):
They take their child with themand they begin to love the child.
Because by loving that child, youare in essence loving yourself.
. And so from there that you begin togrow the child because you begin to
be your own parent and you meet thoseneeds that weren't met in a younger
age, so that as you begin to work on theshame, you now growing with the child.
(16:31):
You're listening to yourself, you'rebeginning to trust yourself and
therefore you're meeting your ownneeds, which is the ultimate power.
If you can meet your own needs, thenpeople become a want, not a need
. John Boswell, LCSW: Oh, I love that.
Mm-hmm.
people become a want, not a meat.
Yeah.
And that, that's, that's so important cuz we want to want
people, I want friends, I want a partner.
(16:53):
You know, I want people cuz we aresocial animals, but if you need
them, then they can control you.
John Boswell, LCSW (17:00):
Wow.
That's heavy.
Mm-hmm.
, what attachment styles would you saythat you mostly see within Borderlines?
Dr. Lynn Varela (17:06):
Anxious avoidant.
A lot of push pull, a lotof, I don't trust people.
A lot of, I keep 'em at a distance,but then I'm the duality within a
person with BPD I want people, Ineed people in my life desperately
to validate my own existence.
But at the same time, I'm absolutelyfearful of people and don't want them
(17:26):
near because they're going to hurt me.
They're going to abandon me,and it's only a matter of time.
John Boswell, LCSW (17:32):
I hate you.
Don't leave me.
Yes.
Dr. Lynn Varela (17:34):
Wow.
Okay.
It's actually, there is a book.
Yes, there is a title.
Yes, there is because it's so.
True.
It's like the person in the way ofthem getting exactly what they want,
because they'll tell you, I want peace.
I want healthy relationships.
I wanna be able to love peoplewithout being quote unquote needy.
But it's them.
(17:55):
It's it's them.
They're the ones keeping themselveslocked in where they are, not
because they want to, but becausethey can't seem to stop themselves
because of their attachment style.
John Boswell, LCSW (18:05):
Mm-hmm.
I'd say within the narcissist weusually see avoidant attachment style.
And that's because the narcissistgrowing up had to kind of
figure out how to compensatefor themselves, love themselves.
I can take care of me.
I wouldn't say love myself,but take care of me.
I don't need anyone's attachmentor approval whatsoever.
Mm-hmm.
And that may have, becausethey had an overbearing parent
who was very cold to them.
(18:27):
Mm.
. Or who's very conditional in their loving.
Yeah.
Or we have some who would do kindof the, the flip side of that,
which is an anxious attachment.
Yeah.
And it's kind.
Okay.
The love is very conditional.
Yeah.
I'll get and give you a hug or I'll tellyou I love you if you hit that home run.
Yeah.
. So I'm always walking around on pinsand needles and I'm afraid I'm gonna
be abandoned now as an adult because,Yeah, , the love is conditional.
(18:50):
It's very, very conditional.
So we'll see that more so withinthe covert narcissist that
that anxious type of attachment
Dr. Lynn Varela (18:57):
style.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But have you ever seen the fearfulavoidant one where they are anxious
and avoidant at the same time?
Oh, no.
Tell me.
Well, I, yeah, I've seen itwith people with borderline
where they have both mm-hmm.
But that's the push pull.
Right.
So what about, what about covert?
Or are they, can they be
John Boswell, LCSW (19:15):
fearful?
Absolutely.
And this is more so the type that you'llsee, that'll be usually an abusive type.
Mm.
And that'll usually go moreso towards the grandiose.
So they'll be, I'm gonna put you downand I'm gonna make sure that you feel
less than so you don't abandon me.
You don't leave me.
Okay.
And then you try to leave me.
It's.
You're leaving me.
You're just gonna abandon me.
You're leaving me like thatafter everything we've had,
we've worked on together.
(19:35):
That's crazy.
Dr. Lynn Varela (19:36):
Yeah, yeah.
So then it's almost like theyproject their own fear onto the
person and make them pay for it.
Because if you made me fear losingyou, I have to make you pay for it.
John Boswell, LCSW (19:47):
Absolutely.
This is your fault.
Okay.
See, if you, you hadn't, you know, Mademe mad by not washing the dishes tonight.
We would never went through all of this.
Huh.
So it's you that keeps enraging me.
I don't wanna be a jerk toyou, but you make me that way.
Right.
Dr. Lynn Varela (20:02):
You know, that's the thing about personality disorders, and
I, again, I don't know all of them, butthe ones I've worked with particularly
borderline, especially narcissists.
Mm-hmm.
. But I find particularly, , Iguess upsetting is that they don't
take accountability for anything.
No.
No matter how much proof you have.
They never, but they demandaccountability from you.
(20:24):
Absolutely.
It's a double
John Boswell, LCSW (20:25):
standard.
It's a double standard.
So Freud called that the observing ego.
Mm-hmm.
And because personality disorders tendto lack those, which is our ability to
reflect, to take accountability, to lookat ourselves and say, you know what?
I kind of messed up there.
Mm-hmm.
because they lack those.
You will see the deflection constantly.
Mm-hmm.
. Well, yeah.
(20:45):
You know, you don't likeit when I talk over top of.
, but hey, you stepped onmy foot the other day.
Mm-hmm.
. Yeah.
So let's talk about that.
Mm-hmm.
, it's like, well, wait a minute,let's stay at what's focused,
Dr. Lynn Varela (20:57):
and I believe what we, modern day people call what Freud called
the observant ego is really insight.
John Boswell, LCSW (21:02):
Absolutely.
That's all it is.
Dr. Lynn Varela (21:04):
Fancy word for insight.
They don't have insight, but the theother thing is they don't want it.
Mm.
Don't want it.
Because if they come to therapy, you.
maneuver to give them the insight.
Absolutely.
They'll maneuver away from
John Boswell, LCSW (21:17):
it.
Absolutely.
So if you're able to get themthrough the door, remember,
desperation is the best motivator.
Yep.
You know what?
My wife and kids are leaving me becausethey say I've been a jerk to them.
Really?
It's not the case though.
They're, they're the ones who'vebeen tripping, but mm-hmm.
they say, I'm gonna, you know, if Idon't go to therapy, they're gonna leave.
So here I am.
(21:38):
And then you may have a little bitof weigh ins, particularly with the
narcissist, but you have to really catchthem at their rock bottom if they're
going to get better and they're gonnastay motivated enough to get better.
Dr. Lynn Varela (21:48):
Yeah.
And you have to get thembefore they reinflate.
Like a puffer fish.
Absolutely.
After that it's a done deal.
But I think we've pretty much covereda good material with attachment
and the needs and the inner child.
I mean, of course this is very surface.
There's so much more to all ofthese theories, but we can always
go into them in another episode.
John Boswell, LCSW (22:08):
Sure enough, we just wanna thank you guys for listening in.
We hope you took something from it.
We will put a.
Or a list of the books that wementioned within the show notes, just
in case you wanna check those out.
Mm-hmm.
. And please hit this subscribe buttonif you like what we talked about today.
Or if there's something youwanna learn more about, please
put inside the comments.
We're always looking at 'em, we'realways looking to improve and
(22:29):
get better, and make sure we're,you know, we're reaching you all.
Dr. Lynn Varela (22:32):
Yes.
All right.
John Boswell, LCSW (22:33):
All right.
Thank you for tuning in.
Take care.
Take care.
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