September 12, 2024 • 36 mins
🕊️✨ Explore the fascinating life of the God-Man behind the Holy Shroud of Turin in this captivating episode of the "Salve Maria" podcast by the Heralds of the Gospel. Delve into the evidence, history, and faith surrounding this extraordinary relic. Discover how the Holy Shroud, the burial cloth of Jesus Christ, has captivated and continues to captivate believers and scientists alike.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
person, the man of the shroud is the man whodied on the cross. And there is nobody in history
that will die on the cross and that will beburied in a shroud because a shroud was a very
expensive, big linen, and that was only usedfor very distinguished people. It was kind
of an expensive, expensive. And in 1942, therewas a very young cleric of only 27 years old,
(00:27):
that the moment he saw the shroud. He was fascinated,right? He was like, oh my goodness, this is
it. The young cleric was Saint John Bosco. Andthen Saint John Bosco, right, starts talking
about the shroud with everybody. And one ofhis priests, and this is a testament to the
Silesian order because they have impressivearcheologists, they have impressive biblical
(00:52):
theologians, it's amazing. They also had thefirst photographers. So members of the first
club of photographers that were in Turin wereone of his clerics. And also there comes Secundo
Pia with his first camera. We are talking now.His way of trying to imagine what happened
(01:13):
there is what happens with nuclear medicinetoday. They apply a Calcium 67 to a person
and then the person themselves radiates outwardsand they take the image. of the person with
the internal radiation. And this is similarto how the shroud came about. It was the internal
(01:34):
energy that made the image. Now, there is, ofcourse, at this point, not many people would
say, well, but there was a carbon dating in1988 that proved that it was of medieval forgery.
So how do we tackle that argument? Welcome toSalve Maria, the podcast of the Heralds of
the Gospel.
(02:02):
So this episode, as we said in the beginning,is fully dedicated to the Holy Shroud of Turin.
Salve Maria, Fr. Arthur. Salve Maria. SalveMaria, Fr. Justin. And of course, there are
elements that are still evolving. None of usis an specialist in the field, but yet there
are so many pieces of information that are dealingwith the mysteries of the Holy Shroud of Turin.
(02:24):
One thing is for sure, no? And it's that that'svery important probably to give the tone to
this episode, is that we are going to delvedynamic interrelation between history, faith,
and science. And those are elements that donot contradict one another. It's a fascinating
subject because actually is the ecological objecthas been more studied by science in the world.
(02:50):
This is a unique piece of reality that is nota piece of art in the sense that it's not has
not been done by an artist. It has been doneby somebody that we still don't know who, but
it's an amazing object that has so many aspectsthat they are still studying after more than
(03:17):
a hundred years. Because all the research onthis, on the shroud that was in Turin with
the house of Savoy in the 19th century.
photographer called Segundo Pia decided to takea photo of the shroud. Yes, but also maybe
we can bring the people to the actual placebecause this is very scriptural for those who
(03:44):
are always speaking on us and saying, oh no,this is every time the Hellas of the Gospel
podcast speaks, there is no evidence in thescriptures. Well, no, the Gospel of St. John
actually tells us that when the apostles came,saw that our Lord had resurrected, the shroud
was already there. And this is the piece we'retalking about. And with an incredible amount
(04:08):
of detail, because he makes the effort to mentionthe details regarding the shroud and the piece
of linen that was covering the face of our LordJesus Christ with tremendous precision. So
he was very impressed. And actually the shroudbeing left help him to believe. So the shroud
(04:33):
is related to our faith. Of course the shroud,if it's true or not, it won't change our notion
about the resurrection, the death and resurrectionof the Lord Jesus Christ. It doesn't change
that. But it really, it gives us a tremendousproof. Well, we have that. We have the other
veil in Italy. There's another veil, which wouldhave been the cloth that had covered our Lord's
(04:55):
face during the question. That's in Oviedo,in Oviedo in Spain. This other cloth, what's
interesting about it is that it has a completelydistinct history. But if you put them side
by side, you can tell that they belong together,which if it was a counterfeit, as they say,
(05:15):
it would not fit because it's a counterfeit.Each artist does it according to their own
desires. Even sometimes when you see artistswork on someone else's art, they've already
even when they're supposed to follow a certainmode, they still really can't help themselves.
So in a sense, the idea of a forgery, a medievalforgery, is actually rather outlandish, let's
(05:40):
put it that way. Completely. Again, for peoplewho always want to deny anything that is related
to faith, it's impossible to give them reasons,right? But I would like to bring, since we
were talking a further about secundopia, depending.where the name comes from. He was a, he was
the mayor of Turin, but actually what really,really is interesting and is, and is little
(06:02):
known is that in 1842, the shroud was actuallyexposed for the public veneration because there
was a wedding of the house of Savoy who wasreigning there in Turin. That was their capital.
Yeah. And in 1842, there was a very young clericof only 27 years old. that the moment he saw
(06:27):
the shroud, he was fascinated. He was like,oh my goodness, this is it. The young cleric
was Saint John Bosco. And then Saint John Boscostarts talking about the shroud with everybody.
And one of his priests, and this is a testamentto the Salesian order because they have impressive
archeologists, they have impressive biblicaltheologians, it's amazing, they also had the
(06:54):
first photographers. So members of the firstclub of photographers that were in Turin were
one of his clerics. And also there comes Secondopiawith his first camera. We are talking now after
several attempts they made to photograph, wearrived to the year 1898. And in 1998, what
(07:17):
happens? He goes and of course nowadays photographyhas become a commodity, right? People just
point their cell phone and that's it. But forus to understand, it's very technical, we're
not gonna go there. But he had to basicallyset what, how do you call this, a wooden plank
(07:39):
to be able to place the camera. Then the camerawas 40 by 40. How much did it weigh? I don't
know, but the negative was this, about that30 something centimeters, where 30 something
was made of crystal, silver. Yeah. Because silver,silver. That camera is in the museum. Beautiful.
That's right. I think we're going to add itin the, in the images. And then he goes, right.
(08:03):
And I think he, he made, he, he made two attemptsor one of the ones that were there once was
nine seconds. There was 50 seconds of exposure.Imagine this is, you know, the, the. Imagine
the cost. And then he goes and finally he, theyfailed once, they failed twice. spent a whole
night working there and when the doors wereopening for the people to come in, not to visit,
(08:27):
they made the last shot and that's it. And thatwas it because when he went and developed the
silver glass negative that he had, it was verybeautiful, he said. Because he said, now I
am the first person that sees the face of Christafter the apostles left him in. Because why?
(08:53):
Because of course, when you make the positiveof a picture, you see white and black and black
and white and so on. But when the negative cameout, as we can see in the image now, right
here, right here, all of a sudden the detailsof the face of our Lord became completely clear.
It was a positive. The negative of Secundo Piowas a positive because the shroud is a negative.
(09:20):
That's incredible. Yes. So that's exactly howSecond Opium comes into the picture and really.
So, you know, in the middle ages, they didn'tknow anything about negatives and positives.
So to say that it was forging in the middleages to do a negative at that time is completely
absurd. The arguments for the forgery are outlandish,as I said earlier. One of them was about it
(09:44):
that was that it was a painting. using variousmeans. The problem is that they made, let's
say that they had, they found a way of paintingon this flaxen cloth and they had found a way
of using these different mineral paints to doso. But how do you do it in negative? Then
(10:11):
how come that the cloth itself didn't just disintegrate?It's organic. It should have just descended.
And it's been, one of the big problems withthis crowd was that it's been treated very
poorly. It's been in burning buildings. It'sbeen- In two fires, yeah? Two fires. So it
mean very poor conditions. So the argument couldbe that, well, but Egyptian mummies and they've
(10:37):
been wrapped up, they were in perfect conditionsbecause of the ground and the zero humidity
and except on the microclimates. This is noneof that. This is bad conditions, folded up,
unfolded, moved, touched, everything bad thatyou could do to it, it was done. So naturally
speaking, this cloth should have ceased to existhundreds of years ago. So whatever other arguments
(11:07):
you wanna use, you gotta come to that firstpoint, which is it is a natural fabric that
should not exist today. On the itinerary ofthe shroud, we know it also through the pollen
that accumulates on the fabric as it went around.And they have studied and they find pollen
(11:27):
of Jerusalem of that year, so it's extremelyprecise. And then there is a hole, a historical
hole. So through history, we cannot really provethe origin of the shroud. there is a hole between
the year 33 and the year 387 when the shroudarrives in Edessa. After that, yes, we know
(11:55):
the itinerary of the shroud till the Turin.But it is interesting that in the iconography
of the 4th century, there was a change in therepresentation of Lord Jesus Christ. Why? Because
of the shroud. The influence of the shroud,right? So the shroud had an impact on the iconography.
(12:18):
And since then, the iconography of the followJesus Christ is similar to the shroud. So if
it was a forgery, it was from the fourth century.Not the Middle Ages. I think we need to remember
between 33 to 400, there was tremendous persecutionsof Christianity in the Eastern. Eastern Mediterranean
(12:44):
and the fact that there isn't a passport showingwhere it was, it was hidden most likely. Hidden.
Of course it was hidden. Exactly. It was successfulin its hiding. It survived. So again, that
really isn't a negative. It's just that whatdo you really want? Do you want a letter attesting
(13:05):
that it was with me for 40 years buried underneathmy family crypt? Is that what you want? Sure.
Okay. It's nice because it's like the Lord JesusChrist Himself, He had to fly to Egypt, the
shrine also had to fly, and they end up goingto Europe and survive all the persecution that
(13:26):
you just mentioned. So the amount of studiesthat have been done, it's absolutely enormous.
And now… There is a very interesting book thatcame out recently from a French historian called
Jean Christian Petitfice. And his book is the,in English it would be the Holy Shroud of Turing,
(13:56):
Definitive Investigation. So for him, he says,look, I have been studying the Shroud for 40
years and now I've reached the conclusion thatthere is no doubt. that this is a shroud of
our Lord Jesus Christ, that this has no explanation,and that it really represents the person. The
(14:17):
man of the shroud is the man who died on thecross. And there is nobody in history that
will die on the cross and that will be buriedin a shroud because a shroud was a very expensive
piece of big linen and that was only used forvery distinguished people. It was kind of an
expensive, expensive and an honor to be buriedon a shroud. Father, the way it is woven, it
(14:44):
actually, it not only makes it unique, but alsoit's a typical way they would do at the times
of Jesus. I mean, of course, the scientists,they don't want to finish up right there. They
want to continue and that's fine. But alreadythat is a pretty decisive proof. Absolutely.
And the... When the person will buy a shroudfor somebody who was, who had died and were
(15:11):
going to be buried, the notary, let's say, willwrite on the shroud for whom it is. And on
the shroud you have Jesus and Nazareth. Andyou have it in Greek and in Latin. That's there.
Yes. It's amazing. Now. There is, of course,at this point, not many people would say, well,
(15:31):
but there was a carbon dating in 1988 that provedthat it was a medieval forgery. So how do we
tackle that argument? First of all, one of thethree scientists, he recognized that they took
the wrong sample. That would be a problem. Becausethe shroud was damaged and they added a piece
(15:53):
of linen in the external. sides of the shroudand they took the sample from there. You know,
there is, there is that triangular part thatshows when there was a fire, it actually melted
and the molten silver burnt the whole thing.So, but that, that's, and that was restored.
(16:13):
That was restored. And they took the sampleof the restoration. Well, then it is medieval.
Yeah, that's it. Yeah, of course. I don't thinkanyone's hiding that question. It's, it's very
funny when you try to come up with a, with aconspiracy. And it's, and you say, well, that
is true, but no one's hiding that point. Andit's pretty obvious. So it's a really a failed
(16:34):
element. Are you proposing we go to a breakfurther? Because we're always running out of
time in this program whenever it becomes interesting.There is a very nice observation of a French
author called Paul Claudel. I'm going to giveit to you right now. In a moment? Okay. Okay,
we wait then, and then we come back with thesecrets of the shrine and also the phenomenal
influence between faith, history, and science.Salve Maria! I'm Fr. Ryan Murphy of the Heralds
(16:59):
of the Gospel, and I'm delighted to extend aninvitation to each and every one of you. In
the midst of our busy lives, it's crucial totake a moment of reflection, of soulless end
of prayer. That's why I would like to personallyinvite you to join us every day at 3 pm for
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a special and powerful devotion, the DivineMercy Chaplet. The Divine Mercy Chaplet is
a beautiful prayer that embodies the boundlesscompassion of our Lord. It's a time to come
together as a community, regardless of wherewe are, and lift up our intentions, our hopes,
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and even our burdens to the heart of Jesus.Imagine all around the world countless voices
uniting in prayer at this very hour. It's amoment of connection, of spiritual unity. and
of seeking God's mercy in a troubled world.So, mark your calendars, set your alarms, and
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make a commitment to join us each day at 3 pm.Tune in and experience the transformative power
of the Divine Mercy Chaplet. Let this be a sanctuaryof peace amidst the noise of life. Thank you
for being a part of our Herald's Canada YouTubechannel. Together, let's embark on this journey
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of faith, hope, and mercy. I'm looking forwardto praying with you every day at 3 p.m. May
God's love and mercy shine upon you always.And until we meet again, may Almighty God bless
you, the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.Amen. So we are back then. Father, you were
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mentioning Paul Claudel, and this is a phenomenalauthor that has those one-liners that are always
beautiful, right? Yes. He was so much touchedwhen he saw the shroud that he decided to write
a letter about the shroud and expressing hisfeelings. And he's absolutely beautiful. And
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he doesn't deal with the scientist aspect ofthe matter. He just wants to say, look, when
you see the shroud, you have a... a feelingthat is only when you see the shroud. So he
says, you're basically seeing a person, you'reseeing somebody. So he will say more than an
(19:37):
image, it is a presence. So when he observedthe shroud in Turin, this is not an image,
it's not a painting, it's not a, it's much more.You see a presence. Is there? For the three
of us, you are the only one that actually sawthe shrine, right? You were there. And you
(20:00):
can tell basically your impressions too, becauseit's- I remember that you had to book in advance
and you wait online, et cetera. And then theywill show you a little presentation on the
shroud to understand what you're going to see.And the whole process takes at least an hour
or two because it's huge lines. I mean, an enormousamount of people. and I don't remember how
(20:26):
many, but one million or two million peoplethat are going to see the showing every time
it is exposed. That was 2010. That was around2010, yes. It was the last time it was exposed.
They do it every 10 or 20 years, it dependson the Pope. And then finally, you know, you
will enter the Cathedral of Turin on the leftside, close to the altar. because the shot
(20:54):
is exposed on top of the altar in a very niceway, in a, in a, in a, in a crystal box, let's
say. And with, with a moderate lighting, butthe whole cathedron is in dark for you to be
able to see it better. So finally you accessand you go by, you pass, you reach the altar
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and then you can stop for I don't remember howmany seconds, but for me it was very, very
quick, but I don't know how many, how long,because you stay there and you see, and really
you feel that presence that Paul Cloude is mentioning.He is there. He, Lord is there. This is Him.
You have no doubts about this. And then youhave to go because other people are coming
(21:43):
and it's, uh, it's impossible to, to stay theretoo long. So you have to go and then you can
come back. to the cathedral through the backdoor. And you can stay in the cathedral, but
of course, at a distance, which as the imprintin the shroud is not very strong, you see,
but of course you don't see too much. But whatis amazing is that with the modern technology,
(22:12):
we can see the shroud much, much better thanSt. John, but much better.
Paul Crudel says that the discovery of the shroudwith the with the photography of Secondopiia
in 1898, it was a second resurrection of ourLord Jesus Christ. Because by seeing the shroud,
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you can see Him again. And that He was pleasedto be able to see our Lord Jesus Christ as
the disciples have seen Him at the moment ofHis death. Um, it's really, um, now there are
some other aspects and some other characteristicsbecause for the general, what common person,
(22:58):
we all tend to think that the blood of our Lordbasically is the one that delineates his body.
Right. And in reality, that's a mistake becauseif it was blood, it would have been absorbed
by the, um, by the fabric. And then you cannotsee any, you would not be able to discern any.
Don't forget, they also wash the body very wellbefore they put it in the shroud. So it isn't
(23:21):
like that he came off beaten and everything,just taken off and wrapped up and thrown into
a tomb. There was a whole process washing andeverything. And then the oil, they were putting
oil on the body that Nicodemus took a greatamount of.
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So he was in Rome. Now, there is blood, andthat blood is AB, which is the blood of the
Father, Jesus Christ. And the interesting thingis that when, they discovered this also recently,
when the person goes through a tremendous suffering,physical suffering, the liver produces a substance
(24:10):
that goes into the blood, and the blood turnsmore red. And when the person dies, the blood
stays red. If not, the blood will become dark,almost black. And since you're talking about
that, Father, this is exactly the techniquethat debunked the carbon 14 findings, because
(24:33):
they came up with another atomic, they basicallygo into nanoparticles. No, divided into, I
think it's nine more parts. That is where theywent. And they realized that, that when there
is a, there's a question of creatinine, andalso another substance, I can't remember, but
(24:54):
when that happens, as you say, that only happenswhen people who have suffered tremendous trauma
or torture. And so that is present in the nanoparticles.It's, they found all the substance. So that
is a much more precise analysis. And also theyhave something else that also debunked the
(25:14):
C14, which is called the wide angle X-ray scanning.And this father is phenomenal because they
went, it is applied only to fabrics. So fabriccontains cellulose. And so they are able to
measure the aging of the cellulose in specificpieces of fabric, much more applied than the
(25:36):
C14. C14 could be another for. for rocks, forbones. Right. So they went there and they demonstrated
that, no, no. According to these measurementsis 2000 years old. And that's later than 1988.
So this is very, very amazing. They discoveredalso that the image is, let's say it's a photograph
(26:02):
because they don't know how to call it. There'sno other word, but it's like a photo. The image
is the image of a person who is moving. andwho is alive, therefore. So it's not the imprint
of a dead person, it's a person who is aliveand is moving. So, you know, it's something
(26:27):
that impossible to forge. Not even today withall the signs that we have, we cannot do another
trial exactly the same as this one. We can't.I think the easiest way of trying to imagine
what happened there is what happens with nuclearmedicine today. which they apply, let's say
(26:47):
a galladium 67 to a person. And then the personthemselves radiates outwards and they take
the image of the person with the internal radiation.And this is similar to how the shroud came
about. It was the internal energy that madethe image. It wasn't an external energy that
(27:07):
made it. The light came from the body. But itwasn't that it was outside, right? It was like...
I don't know how, in the first century AD, we'rehooking up a system. No, no. So Christ makes
the image. It isn't the other way around. It'snot an image made of Christ. It's an image
that's been exposed to the light. The printingin the cloth, right, is made by an explosion
(27:32):
of light. Energy. And so it burned, but didn'tburn too much, but didn't burn too little.
It's just a little piece of cloth. And thatis what, right? Trans, yeah. That's it. That,
yeah. It poses the image on the cloth, right?And that's again, that's something really important
to look at. But what Father is pointing outtoo is that this is new, right? Because I think
(27:56):
that explosion of light was discovered in 78or 80 something. But these that is. an exposure
of light made by someone who actually was moving.Of course he was moving. That is something.
That changes everything. But that's a majorproblem with people who are involved in scientism,
(28:16):
which the present day science explains all things.And if it doesn't agree with today's science,
then it must be wrong. Because scientism isa religion. It's not the love of science, what's
Chiantia, knowledge is good. But when you useit as a as an idol, as a religion, it lets
you down. And I don't know how many ways, overthe years it has done so. The 18th century,
(28:43):
the scientism was the Darwinism. And with time,it lost a lot of its edge and interest and
it just sort of dissipated because certain thingswere found out to be not true. But the creation
of the world, the eternal world, scientism heldthat for many years. And now they're basically
(29:03):
in a position where they have to admit thatthere was a beginning and it gets so bad that
they propose that there's an alien force thatmakes it. You've got to save yourself somehow.
And then you have the expansion of the universe.It's constantly expanding. Well, if it's constantly
expanding, that indicates that there's a beginningbecause you can't have eternal expansion, otherwise
(29:25):
it just comes apart. So the same thing goeswith the Shroud of Turin. The Shroud of Turin...
In 88 when the carbon dating came out and itwas all big scandal, today no one even mentions
the carbon date, because it's very passe andit's known for being very inexact and it's
gone, it's gone. But that's the problem whenwe hang hold on to scientism. True science
(29:49):
doesn't contradict faith. Of course. And that'sreally important because many times people
have that point where... Faith and reason, faithand religion are in contradiction. They shouldn't
be in contradiction because science is the searchof knowledge. Hopefully true knowledge. Science
doesn't dismiss faith. Should not, they shouldwalk hand in hand. Now, when there's a contradiction,
(30:10):
there's a problem, which means that someoneis wrong. And many times that tends to be the
science. The difference is that faith tellsyou always the truth. Science, not always,
sometimes. Because science evolves and changes.There is a problem, no, because faith comes
also from the grace and the grace borrows theeyes of God. Science is merely human and it's
(30:34):
okay, it's a good attempt to try to explainthings, which we need to. Of course. But, right,
it's never going to be able to fully explainit. But we're looking at the handiwork of God.
I think the first scientist, sorry, you knowwho he is? It's Saint Thomas, the apostle.
He was the first scientist. He wanted to havethe proof. And St. Thomas actually, St. Thomas
(30:54):
Aquinas says that the finger that touched ourLord of St. Thomas on that finger rested the
faith of multitudes. Of course. Exactly. Becausehe gave factual proof. He gave the proof. And
he's the first one to declare Christ as God,my Lord and my God. The rest didn't. So that's
faith and reason right there. He had a doubt,he made his experiment, and he came to a conclusion.
(31:18):
Perfect. What's really nice about him, SaintThomas is that he didn't fear to ask. Oh no.
Because imagine, I mean, it gives you humanrespect, gives you something. Okay, our Lord
is there and you're asking, and then now He'spresent, and you go and say, well, our Lord
looks at him and says, come. Touch. Believe.But whenever Saint Thomas speaks in the scriptures,
(31:44):
our Lord always listens to him, always attendsto his requests. always helps him. So, his
questions come from a good place. They comefrom a position of faith searching understanding,
and that is him, right? And he's blessed. Imean, Our Lady gives him her belt at the Assumption,
(32:07):
and he is the one who brings about a whole churchin South India where their symbol is the cross.
And that cross, the St. Thomas cross, is stilltheir symbol 2000 years later. And they're
proud of that connection to Christ through Thomas.So Thomas did something right. Absolutely.
(32:29):
And in the sense, you know, he is an exampleof the person who wants to have the proof,
but then finally he reached a conclusion. Cool.Unfortunately, there are many, many scientists
today. that they have all the proof, but theynever reach the conclusion. But they don't
want that solution. No, they don't want to recognize,you know, this is true and this is the charge
of the Lord Jesus Christ and that's it. ButSt. Thomas was humble, right? He says, I will
(32:55):
not believe if I do not touch him. And thenwhen he touches him, he makes the act of faith
that none of them dared to make. He had guts.The others didn't make that step. The other
one sat back and Maybe, maybe so, maybe he'sa ghost, maybe he's this, maybe he's that.
No, he goes, my Lord and my God. For a Jew,that is the ultimate declaration. Absolutely.
(33:16):
He basically said he was God twice in two differentformats. So, yeah, he had no doubts. But when
we see that famous picture of Second Opi, thisis really beautiful. I remember Professor Plinyakor
of Elevate once said, because, you know, whengoing backtracking a little bit, when they
would bury a person at a time, in order to avoidthat the eyes would open again, they would
(33:39):
place coins there. Yeah. So basically whilethe coins are, you know, they can be seen and
so on, but much more interesting than that isthat his eyes are closed. And Dr. Prini used
to say, he's someone who sees, no, who showshis gaze having the eyes closed. Exactly. No.
Beautiful. And that's really amazing. That'samazing. The eyes closed and you can still
(34:04):
see His sight and his divine is beautiful. Andyou know, on the Shroud, you have the imprint
of the two coins. And they correspond exactlyto the coins of the time. The coins of the
time, they show. Again, to go back to that stupidityof the forgery. It's far too perfect to be
a forgery. One scientist even said, look, ifit was a forgery of the Middle Ages, I asked
(34:33):
myself, why this person would put so many detailsand so many proofs that were not able to be
seen at his time? That makes no sense. That'sa big problem. Painting almost in lemon juice
that no one can see unless you expose it toflame. But why? But why would you do that?
(34:54):
Of course. It makes no sense. We're always runningout of time, unfortunately, and we have to
wrap up the conversation. But look deeper andlook at more resources. What do you recommend?
Yes, this book of this French author, Jean-ChristianPetitfice, in French is Le Saint-Suerre de
(35:18):
Turin, L'enquête définitive, The Holy Shroudof Turin, The Definitive Investigation. It's
a beautiful book. There's a summary of everythingthat has been discovered till now. because
actually science continues. I'm sure they'regoing to show more things in the future. And
(35:38):
see the shroud, if you can go and visit theshroud and in front of the shroud, you have
to say like St. Thomas, my Lord and my God,because this is absolutely fantastic. He's
there, he's in the shroud. So I want to giveto all of you the blessing of Almighty God,
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit come upon you andremain with you forever. Amen. you
person, the man of the shroud is the man whodied on the cross. And there is nobody in history
that will die on the cross and that will beburied in a shroud because a shroud was a very
expensive, big linen, and that was only usedfor very distinguished people. It was kind
of an expensive, expensive. And in 1942, therewas a very young cleric of only 27 years old,
(00:27):
that the moment he saw the shroud. He was fascinated,right? He was like, oh my goodness, this is
it. The young cleric was Saint John Bosco. Andthen Saint John Bosco, right, starts talking
about the shroud with everybody. And one ofhis priests, and this is a testament to the
Silesian order because they have impressivearcheologists, they have impressive biblical
(00:52):
theologians, it's amazing. They also had thefirst photographers. So members of the first
club of photographers that were in Turin wereone of his clerics. And also there comes Secundo
Pia with his first camera. We are talking now.His way of trying to imagine what happened
(01:13):
there is what happens with nuclear medicinetoday. They apply a Calcium 67 to a person
and then the person themselves radiates outwardsand they take the image. of the person with
the internal radiation. And this is similarto how the shroud came about. It was the internal
(01:34):
energy that made the image. Now, there is, ofcourse, at this point, not many people would
say, well, but there was a carbon dating in1988 that proved that it was of medieval forgery.
So how do we tackle that argument? Welcome toSalve Maria, the podcast of the Heralds of
the Gospel.
(02:02):
So this episode, as we said in the beginning,is fully dedicated to the Holy Shroud of Turin.
Salve Maria, Fr. Arthur. Salve Maria. SalveMaria, Fr. Justin. And of course, there are
elements that are still evolving. None of usis an specialist in the field, but yet there
are so many pieces of information that are dealingwith the mysteries of the Holy Shroud of Turin.
(02:24):
One thing is for sure, no? And it's that that'svery important probably to give the tone to
this episode, is that we are going to delvedynamic interrelation between history, faith,
and science. And those are elements that donot contradict one another. It's a fascinating
subject because actually is the ecological objecthas been more studied by science in the world.
(02:50):
This is a unique piece of reality that is nota piece of art in the sense that it's not has
not been done by an artist. It has been doneby somebody that we still don't know who, but
it's an amazing object that has so many aspectsthat they are still studying after more than
(03:17):
a hundred years. Because all the research onthis, on the shroud that was in Turin with
the house of Savoy in the 19th century.
photographer called Segundo Pia decided to takea photo of the shroud. Yes, but also maybe
we can bring the people to the actual placebecause this is very scriptural for those who
(03:44):
are always speaking on us and saying, oh no,this is every time the Hellas of the Gospel
podcast speaks, there is no evidence in thescriptures. Well, no, the Gospel of St. John
actually tells us that when the apostles came,saw that our Lord had resurrected, the shroud
was already there. And this is the piece we'retalking about. And with an incredible amount
(04:08):
of detail, because he makes the effort to mentionthe details regarding the shroud and the piece
of linen that was covering the face of our LordJesus Christ with tremendous precision. So
he was very impressed. And actually the shroudbeing left help him to believe. So the shroud
(04:33):
is related to our faith. Of course the shroud,if it's true or not, it won't change our notion
about the resurrection, the death and resurrectionof the Lord Jesus Christ. It doesn't change
that. But it really, it gives us a tremendousproof. Well, we have that. We have the other
veil in Italy. There's another veil, which wouldhave been the cloth that had covered our Lord's
(04:55):
face during the question. That's in Oviedo,in Oviedo in Spain. This other cloth, what's
interesting about it is that it has a completelydistinct history. But if you put them side
by side, you can tell that they belong together,which if it was a counterfeit, as they say,
(05:15):
it would not fit because it's a counterfeit.Each artist does it according to their own
desires. Even sometimes when you see artistswork on someone else's art, they've already
even when they're supposed to follow a certainmode, they still really can't help themselves.
So in a sense, the idea of a forgery, a medievalforgery, is actually rather outlandish, let's
(05:40):
put it that way. Completely. Again, for peoplewho always want to deny anything that is related
to faith, it's impossible to give them reasons,right? But I would like to bring, since we
were talking a further about secundopia, depending.where the name comes from. He was a, he was
the mayor of Turin, but actually what really,really is interesting and is, and is little
(06:02):
known is that in 1842, the shroud was actuallyexposed for the public veneration because there
was a wedding of the house of Savoy who wasreigning there in Turin. That was their capital.
Yeah. And in 1842, there was a very young clericof only 27 years old. that the moment he saw
(06:27):
the shroud, he was fascinated. He was like,oh my goodness, this is it. The young cleric
was Saint John Bosco. And then Saint John Boscostarts talking about the shroud with everybody.
And one of his priests, and this is a testamentto the Salesian order because they have impressive
archeologists, they have impressive biblicaltheologians, it's amazing, they also had the
(06:54):
first photographers. So members of the firstclub of photographers that were in Turin were
one of his clerics. And also there comes Secondopiawith his first camera. We are talking now after
several attempts they made to photograph, wearrived to the year 1898. And in 1998, what
(07:17):
happens? He goes and of course nowadays photographyhas become a commodity, right? People just
point their cell phone and that's it. But forus to understand, it's very technical, we're
not gonna go there. But he had to basicallyset what, how do you call this, a wooden plank
(07:39):
to be able to place the camera. Then the camerawas 40 by 40. How much did it weigh? I don't
know, but the negative was this, about that30 something centimeters, where 30 something
was made of crystal, silver. Yeah. Because silver,silver. That camera is in the museum. Beautiful.
That's right. I think we're going to add itin the, in the images. And then he goes, right.
(08:03):
And I think he, he made, he, he made two attemptsor one of the ones that were there once was
nine seconds. There was 50 seconds of exposure.Imagine this is, you know, the, the. Imagine
the cost. And then he goes and finally he, theyfailed once, they failed twice. spent a whole
night working there and when the doors wereopening for the people to come in, not to visit,
(08:27):
they made the last shot and that's it. And thatwas it because when he went and developed the
silver glass negative that he had, it was verybeautiful, he said. Because he said, now I
am the first person that sees the face of Christafter the apostles left him in. Because why?
(08:53):
Because of course, when you make the positiveof a picture, you see white and black and black
and white and so on. But when the negative cameout, as we can see in the image now, right
here, right here, all of a sudden the detailsof the face of our Lord became completely clear.
It was a positive. The negative of Secundo Piowas a positive because the shroud is a negative.
(09:20):
That's incredible. Yes. So that's exactly howSecond Opium comes into the picture and really.
So, you know, in the middle ages, they didn'tknow anything about negatives and positives.
So to say that it was forging in the middleages to do a negative at that time is completely
absurd. The arguments for the forgery are outlandish,as I said earlier. One of them was about it
(09:44):
that was that it was a painting. using variousmeans. The problem is that they made, let's
say that they had, they found a way of paintingon this flaxen cloth and they had found a way
of using these different mineral paints to doso. But how do you do it in negative? Then
(10:11):
how come that the cloth itself didn't just disintegrate?It's organic. It should have just descended.
And it's been, one of the big problems withthis crowd was that it's been treated very
poorly. It's been in burning buildings. It'sbeen- In two fires, yeah? Two fires. So it
mean very poor conditions. So the argument couldbe that, well, but Egyptian mummies and they've
(10:37):
been wrapped up, they were in perfect conditionsbecause of the ground and the zero humidity
and except on the microclimates. This is noneof that. This is bad conditions, folded up,
unfolded, moved, touched, everything bad thatyou could do to it, it was done. So naturally
speaking, this cloth should have ceased to existhundreds of years ago. So whatever other arguments
(11:07):
you wanna use, you gotta come to that firstpoint, which is it is a natural fabric that
should not exist today. On the itinerary ofthe shroud, we know it also through the pollen
that accumulates on the fabric as it went around.And they have studied and they find pollen
(11:27):
of Jerusalem of that year, so it's extremelyprecise. And then there is a hole, a historical
hole. So through history, we cannot really provethe origin of the shroud. there is a hole between
the year 33 and the year 387 when the shroudarrives in Edessa. After that, yes, we know
(11:55):
the itinerary of the shroud till the Turin.But it is interesting that in the iconography
of the 4th century, there was a change in therepresentation of Lord Jesus Christ. Why? Because
of the shroud. The influence of the shroud,right? So the shroud had an impact on the iconography.
(12:18):
And since then, the iconography of the followJesus Christ is similar to the shroud. So if
it was a forgery, it was from the fourth century.Not the Middle Ages. I think we need to remember
between 33 to 400, there was tremendous persecutionsof Christianity in the Eastern. Eastern Mediterranean
(12:44):
and the fact that there isn't a passport showingwhere it was, it was hidden most likely. Hidden.
Of course it was hidden. Exactly. It was successfulin its hiding. It survived. So again, that
really isn't a negative. It's just that whatdo you really want? Do you want a letter attesting
(13:05):
that it was with me for 40 years buried underneathmy family crypt? Is that what you want? Sure.
Okay. It's nice because it's like the Lord JesusChrist Himself, He had to fly to Egypt, the
shrine also had to fly, and they end up goingto Europe and survive all the persecution that
(13:26):
you just mentioned. So the amount of studiesthat have been done, it's absolutely enormous.
And now… There is a very interesting book thatcame out recently from a French historian called
Jean Christian Petitfice. And his book is the,in English it would be the Holy Shroud of Turing,
(13:56):
Definitive Investigation. So for him, he says,look, I have been studying the Shroud for 40
years and now I've reached the conclusion thatthere is no doubt. that this is a shroud of
our Lord Jesus Christ, that this has no explanation,and that it really represents the person. The
(14:17):
man of the shroud is the man who died on thecross. And there is nobody in history that
will die on the cross and that will be buriedin a shroud because a shroud was a very expensive
piece of big linen and that was only used forvery distinguished people. It was kind of an
expensive, expensive and an honor to be buriedon a shroud. Father, the way it is woven, it
(14:44):
actually, it not only makes it unique, but alsoit's a typical way they would do at the times
of Jesus. I mean, of course, the scientists,they don't want to finish up right there. They
want to continue and that's fine. But alreadythat is a pretty decisive proof. Absolutely.
And the... When the person will buy a shroudfor somebody who was, who had died and were
(15:11):
going to be buried, the notary, let's say, willwrite on the shroud for whom it is. And on
the shroud you have Jesus and Nazareth. Andyou have it in Greek and in Latin. That's there.
Yes. It's amazing. Now. There is, of course,at this point, not many people would say, well,
(15:31):
but there was a carbon dating in 1988 that provedthat it was a medieval forgery. So how do we
tackle that argument? First of all, one of thethree scientists, he recognized that they took
the wrong sample. That would be a problem. Becausethe shroud was damaged and they added a piece
(15:53):
of linen in the external. sides of the shroudand they took the sample from there. You know,
there is, there is that triangular part thatshows when there was a fire, it actually melted
and the molten silver burnt the whole thing.So, but that, that's, and that was restored.
(16:13):
That was restored. And they took the sampleof the restoration. Well, then it is medieval.
Yeah, that's it. Yeah, of course. I don't thinkanyone's hiding that question. It's, it's very
funny when you try to come up with a, with aconspiracy. And it's, and you say, well, that
is true, but no one's hiding that point. Andit's pretty obvious. So it's a really a failed
(16:34):
element. Are you proposing we go to a breakfurther? Because we're always running out of
time in this program whenever it becomes interesting.There is a very nice observation of a French
author called Paul Claudel. I'm going to giveit to you right now. In a moment? Okay. Okay,
we wait then, and then we come back with thesecrets of the shrine and also the phenomenal
influence between faith, history, and science.Salve Maria! I'm Fr. Ryan Murphy of the Heralds
(16:59):
of the Gospel, and I'm delighted to extend aninvitation to each and every one of you. In
the midst of our busy lives, it's crucial totake a moment of reflection, of soulless end
of prayer. That's why I would like to personallyinvite you to join us every day at 3 pm for
(17:20):
a special and powerful devotion, the DivineMercy Chaplet. The Divine Mercy Chaplet is
a beautiful prayer that embodies the boundlesscompassion of our Lord. It's a time to come
together as a community, regardless of wherewe are, and lift up our intentions, our hopes,
(17:42):
and even our burdens to the heart of Jesus.Imagine all around the world countless voices
uniting in prayer at this very hour. It's amoment of connection, of spiritual unity. and
of seeking God's mercy in a troubled world.So, mark your calendars, set your alarms, and
(18:04):
make a commitment to join us each day at 3 pm.Tune in and experience the transformative power
of the Divine Mercy Chaplet. Let this be a sanctuaryof peace amidst the noise of life. Thank you
for being a part of our Herald's Canada YouTubechannel. Together, let's embark on this journey
(18:28):
of faith, hope, and mercy. I'm looking forwardto praying with you every day at 3 p.m. May
God's love and mercy shine upon you always.And until we meet again, may Almighty God bless
you, the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.Amen. So we are back then. Father, you were
(18:50):
mentioning Paul Claudel, and this is a phenomenalauthor that has those one-liners that are always
beautiful, right? Yes. He was so much touchedwhen he saw the shroud that he decided to write
a letter about the shroud and expressing hisfeelings. And he's absolutely beautiful. And
(19:12):
he doesn't deal with the scientist aspect ofthe matter. He just wants to say, look, when
you see the shroud, you have a... a feelingthat is only when you see the shroud. So he
says, you're basically seeing a person, you'reseeing somebody. So he will say more than an
(19:37):
image, it is a presence. So when he observedthe shroud in Turin, this is not an image,
it's not a painting, it's not a, it's much more.You see a presence. Is there? For the three
of us, you are the only one that actually sawthe shrine, right? You were there. And you
(20:00):
can tell basically your impressions too, becauseit's- I remember that you had to book in advance
and you wait online, et cetera. And then theywill show you a little presentation on the
shroud to understand what you're going to see.And the whole process takes at least an hour
or two because it's huge lines. I mean, an enormousamount of people. and I don't remember how
(20:26):
many, but one million or two million peoplethat are going to see the showing every time
it is exposed. That was 2010. That was around2010, yes. It was the last time it was exposed.
They do it every 10 or 20 years, it dependson the Pope. And then finally, you know, you
will enter the Cathedral of Turin on the leftside, close to the altar. because the shot
(20:54):
is exposed on top of the altar in a very niceway, in a, in a, in a, in a crystal box, let's
say. And with, with a moderate lighting, butthe whole cathedron is in dark for you to be
able to see it better. So finally you accessand you go by, you pass, you reach the altar
(21:19):
and then you can stop for I don't remember howmany seconds, but for me it was very, very
quick, but I don't know how many, how long,because you stay there and you see, and really
you feel that presence that Paul Cloude is mentioning.He is there. He, Lord is there. This is Him.
You have no doubts about this. And then youhave to go because other people are coming
(21:43):
and it's, uh, it's impossible to, to stay theretoo long. So you have to go and then you can
come back. to the cathedral through the backdoor. And you can stay in the cathedral, but
of course, at a distance, which as the imprintin the shroud is not very strong, you see,
but of course you don't see too much. But whatis amazing is that with the modern technology,
(22:12):
we can see the shroud much, much better thanSt. John, but much better.
Paul Crudel says that the discovery of the shroudwith the with the photography of Secondopiia
in 1898, it was a second resurrection of ourLord Jesus Christ. Because by seeing the shroud,
(22:35):
you can see Him again. And that He was pleasedto be able to see our Lord Jesus Christ as
the disciples have seen Him at the moment ofHis death. Um, it's really, um, now there are
some other aspects and some other characteristicsbecause for the general, what common person,
(22:58):
we all tend to think that the blood of our Lordbasically is the one that delineates his body.
Right. And in reality, that's a mistake becauseif it was blood, it would have been absorbed
by the, um, by the fabric. And then you cannotsee any, you would not be able to discern any.
Don't forget, they also wash the body very wellbefore they put it in the shroud. So it isn't
(23:21):
like that he came off beaten and everything,just taken off and wrapped up and thrown into
a tomb. There was a whole process washing andeverything. And then the oil, they were putting
oil on the body that Nicodemus took a greatamount of.
(23:43):
So he was in Rome. Now, there is blood, andthat blood is AB, which is the blood of the
Father, Jesus Christ. And the interesting thingis that when, they discovered this also recently,
when the person goes through a tremendous suffering,physical suffering, the liver produces a substance
(24:10):
that goes into the blood, and the blood turnsmore red. And when the person dies, the blood
stays red. If not, the blood will become dark,almost black. And since you're talking about
that, Father, this is exactly the techniquethat debunked the carbon 14 findings, because
(24:33):
they came up with another atomic, they basicallygo into nanoparticles. No, divided into, I
think it's nine more parts. That is where theywent. And they realized that, that when there
is a, there's a question of creatinine, andalso another substance, I can't remember, but
(24:54):
when that happens, as you say, that only happenswhen people who have suffered tremendous trauma
or torture. And so that is present in the nanoparticles.It's, they found all the substance. So that
is a much more precise analysis. And also theyhave something else that also debunked the
(25:14):
C14, which is called the wide angle X-ray scanning.And this father is phenomenal because they
went, it is applied only to fabrics. So fabriccontains cellulose. And so they are able to
measure the aging of the cellulose in specificpieces of fabric, much more applied than the
(25:36):
C14. C14 could be another for. for rocks, forbones. Right. So they went there and they demonstrated
that, no, no. According to these measurementsis 2000 years old. And that's later than 1988.
So this is very, very amazing. They discoveredalso that the image is, let's say it's a photograph
(26:02):
because they don't know how to call it. There'sno other word, but it's like a photo. The image
is the image of a person who is moving. andwho is alive, therefore. So it's not the imprint
of a dead person, it's a person who is aliveand is moving. So, you know, it's something
(26:27):
that impossible to forge. Not even today withall the signs that we have, we cannot do another
trial exactly the same as this one. We can't.I think the easiest way of trying to imagine
what happened there is what happens with nuclearmedicine today. which they apply, let's say
(26:47):
a galladium 67 to a person. And then the personthemselves radiates outwards and they take
the image of the person with the internal radiation.And this is similar to how the shroud came
about. It was the internal energy that madethe image. It wasn't an external energy that
(27:07):
made it. The light came from the body. But itwasn't that it was outside, right? It was like...
I don't know how, in the first century AD, we'rehooking up a system. No, no. So Christ makes
the image. It isn't the other way around. It'snot an image made of Christ. It's an image
that's been exposed to the light. The printingin the cloth, right, is made by an explosion
(27:32):
of light. Energy. And so it burned, but didn'tburn too much, but didn't burn too little.
It's just a little piece of cloth. And thatis what, right? Trans, yeah. That's it. That,
yeah. It poses the image on the cloth, right?And that's again, that's something really important
to look at. But what Father is pointing outtoo is that this is new, right? Because I think
(27:56):
that explosion of light was discovered in 78or 80 something. But these that is. an exposure
of light made by someone who actually was moving.Of course he was moving. That is something.
That changes everything. But that's a majorproblem with people who are involved in scientism,
(28:16):
which the present day science explains all things.And if it doesn't agree with today's science,
then it must be wrong. Because scientism isa religion. It's not the love of science, what's
Chiantia, knowledge is good. But when you useit as a as an idol, as a religion, it lets
you down. And I don't know how many ways, overthe years it has done so. The 18th century,
(28:43):
the scientism was the Darwinism. And with time,it lost a lot of its edge and interest and
it just sort of dissipated because certain thingswere found out to be not true. But the creation
of the world, the eternal world, scientism heldthat for many years. And now they're basically
(29:03):
in a position where they have to admit thatthere was a beginning and it gets so bad that
they propose that there's an alien force thatmakes it. You've got to save yourself somehow.
And then you have the expansion of the universe.It's constantly expanding. Well, if it's constantly
expanding, that indicates that there's a beginningbecause you can't have eternal expansion, otherwise
(29:25):
it just comes apart. So the same thing goeswith the Shroud of Turin. The Shroud of Turin...
In 88 when the carbon dating came out and itwas all big scandal, today no one even mentions
the carbon date, because it's very passe andit's known for being very inexact and it's
gone, it's gone. But that's the problem whenwe hang hold on to scientism. True science
(29:49):
doesn't contradict faith. Of course. And that'sreally important because many times people
have that point where... Faith and reason, faithand religion are in contradiction. They shouldn't
be in contradiction because science is the searchof knowledge. Hopefully true knowledge. Science
doesn't dismiss faith. Should not, they shouldwalk hand in hand. Now, when there's a contradiction,
(30:10):
there's a problem, which means that someoneis wrong. And many times that tends to be the
science. The difference is that faith tellsyou always the truth. Science, not always,
sometimes. Because science evolves and changes.There is a problem, no, because faith comes
also from the grace and the grace borrows theeyes of God. Science is merely human and it's
(30:34):
okay, it's a good attempt to try to explainthings, which we need to. Of course. But, right,
it's never going to be able to fully explainit. But we're looking at the handiwork of God.
I think the first scientist, sorry, you knowwho he is? It's Saint Thomas, the apostle.
He was the first scientist. He wanted to havethe proof. And St. Thomas actually, St. Thomas
(30:54):
Aquinas says that the finger that touched ourLord of St. Thomas on that finger rested the
faith of multitudes. Of course. Exactly. Becausehe gave factual proof. He gave the proof. And
he's the first one to declare Christ as God,my Lord and my God. The rest didn't. So that's
faith and reason right there. He had a doubt,he made his experiment, and he came to a conclusion.
(31:18):
Perfect. What's really nice about him, SaintThomas is that he didn't fear to ask. Oh no.
Because imagine, I mean, it gives you humanrespect, gives you something. Okay, our Lord
is there and you're asking, and then now He'spresent, and you go and say, well, our Lord
looks at him and says, come. Touch. Believe.But whenever Saint Thomas speaks in the scriptures,
(31:44):
our Lord always listens to him, always attendsto his requests. always helps him. So, his
questions come from a good place. They comefrom a position of faith searching understanding,
and that is him, right? And he's blessed. Imean, Our Lady gives him her belt at the Assumption,
(32:07):
and he is the one who brings about a whole churchin South India where their symbol is the cross.
And that cross, the St. Thomas cross, is stilltheir symbol 2000 years later. And they're
proud of that connection to Christ through Thomas.So Thomas did something right. Absolutely.
(32:29):
And in the sense, you know, he is an exampleof the person who wants to have the proof,
but then finally he reached a conclusion. Cool.Unfortunately, there are many, many scientists
today. that they have all the proof, but theynever reach the conclusion. But they don't
want that solution. No, they don't want to recognize,you know, this is true and this is the charge
of the Lord Jesus Christ and that's it. ButSt. Thomas was humble, right? He says, I will
(32:55):
not believe if I do not touch him. And thenwhen he touches him, he makes the act of faith
that none of them dared to make. He had guts.The others didn't make that step. The other
one sat back and Maybe, maybe so, maybe he'sa ghost, maybe he's this, maybe he's that.
No, he goes, my Lord and my God. For a Jew,that is the ultimate declaration. Absolutely.
(33:16):
He basically said he was God twice in two differentformats. So, yeah, he had no doubts. But when
we see that famous picture of Second Opi, thisis really beautiful. I remember Professor Plinyakor
of Elevate once said, because, you know, whengoing backtracking a little bit, when they
would bury a person at a time, in order to avoidthat the eyes would open again, they would
(33:39):
place coins there. Yeah. So basically whilethe coins are, you know, they can be seen and
so on, but much more interesting than that isthat his eyes are closed. And Dr. Prini used
to say, he's someone who sees, no, who showshis gaze having the eyes closed. Exactly. No.
Beautiful. And that's really amazing. That'samazing. The eyes closed and you can still
(34:04):
see His sight and his divine is beautiful. Andyou know, on the Shroud, you have the imprint
of the two coins. And they correspond exactlyto the coins of the time. The coins of the
time, they show. Again, to go back to that stupidityof the forgery. It's far too perfect to be
a forgery. One scientist even said, look, ifit was a forgery of the Middle Ages, I asked
(34:33):
myself, why this person would put so many detailsand so many proofs that were not able to be
seen at his time? That makes no sense. That'sa big problem. Painting almost in lemon juice
that no one can see unless you expose it toflame. But why? But why would you do that?
(34:54):
Of course. It makes no sense. We're always runningout of time, unfortunately, and we have to
wrap up the conversation. But look deeper andlook at more resources. What do you recommend?
Yes, this book of this French author, Jean-ChristianPetitfice, in French is Le Saint-Suerre de
(35:18):
Turin, L'enquête définitive, The Holy Shroudof Turin, The Definitive Investigation. It's
a beautiful book. There's a summary of everythingthat has been discovered till now. because
actually science continues. I'm sure they'regoing to show more things in the future. And
(35:38):
see the shroud, if you can go and visit theshroud and in front of the shroud, you have
to say like St. Thomas, my Lord and my God,because this is absolutely fantastic. He's
there, he's in the shroud. So I want to giveto all of you the blessing of Almighty God,
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit come upon you andremain with you forever. Amen. you
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