024: Unlocking Your Photography Potential with Jeff Brown

In episode 24 of The Savory Shot, host Mica McCook chats with Jeff Brown, Photographer, Marketing Mentor and Best Selling Author. Jeff shares insight on his experience in the photography industry, and the challenges that are faced by photographers. We speak on the lack of unique branding, his program and new book!

Savory Shot Shownote: https://micamccook.com/guests/jeff-brown-photographer-mentor/ Website: https://micamccook.com/podcast Instagram: www.instragram.com/mica.mccook Instagram: www.instagram.com/thesavoryshotpodcast Would you like to be a guest on the show? Fill out the guest form, and we'll be in touch soon.

Episode Transcript

Mica (00:00):
Welcome to the 24th episode of the Savory Shot.
Y'all know who I am.
I'm your host, with the most, Mica McCook.
I announced that like I wasabout to walk into a boxing ring.
Ooh, ooh, ooh with my little gloves.
About to knock some shit out.

(00:22):
Just kidding, y'all.
I am so energetic right now.
I've had my coffee.
It is made perfectly.
It's got the perfect amount of caffeine.
But more than anything,I'm feeling grateful.
The gratitude, y'all,my heart is bursting.
I cannot believe that weare so close to the one year

(00:44):
anniversary of the Savory Shot.
And this is the 24th episode.
Are you kidding me?
My mind y'all is just blown.
Every single time I send out an inviteto a guest and they say yes, my heart
explodes because I have nothing to offer.
I have nothing to offer but my, mygratitude and lint in my pockets.

(01:09):
So it means the world to me that aphotographer or a food stylist or anyone
who's in the industry is willing tosit down and answer all my questions.
There's a lot that goes into making thispodcast and the guests who come on here.
They're coming on here withthe goodness of their hearts.
So that means a lot to me.
I can't say enough how grateful I am.

(01:30):
Another thing that I'm super gratefulfor is for y'all, because, let's
be real, there is no show if y'allaren't coming to listen to the show.
Y'all are here, and you could be doinganything, but you're here with me.
And y'all, that means a lot to me.
To know that you are takingtime out of your busy schedule

(01:50):
to listen to my show, y'all.
I don't think I will ever have theright amount of words to say thank you.
So thank you for being here.
I have one little quick announcement.
I will not waste your time.
I promise.
I know you're busy.
I know you got shit to do, and Iknow you want to get to the show.
So I will say this.

(02:11):
Y'all can leave memessages on my new page.
It's called Pod In A Box.
It's a little experiment.
Y'all can leave me voicemessages in my DMs on Instagram.
If you feel more comfortable withthat, that is totally up to you.
But I thought this was kind of a coollittle way for y'all to go to this
page and tell me what you thoughtof each episode, since Apple doesn't

(02:33):
allow you to comment on individualepisodes and neither does Spotify.
So this is a great way for youto give me your feedback and you
can leave me a voice message.
You could ask me a question.
You can ask what's the weather goingto be like in Austin on this day
and I'll give you whatever answersI can or you want to give me some
feedback about the last episode.
This is the page to do it.

(02:54):
So if you go to my link on Instagram, youwill find the first link Pod In A Box.
But I want to talk about today's episodebecause y'all I'm excited to get into it.
Today's guest, his name is JeffBrown, and y'all, this is a real
treat to have him on the show.

(03:15):
This is actually really funny because it'sfunny how things like come in full circle.
I was introduced to Jeff Brownthrough Raymond, who hosts Beginner
Photographer Photography Podcast.
After the interview, he messagedme and introduced me to Jeff Brown.
He's like, you have got to talk to him.
He is a mentor to photographersand he knows his stuff.

(03:38):
So I was like, uh, hell yeah,I'll have him on the show.
I trust you, Raymond.
So let's bring him on.
Now, when I was doing my researchon Jeff, I learned that I
actually bought one of his books.
Y'all, I love LinkedIn.
I'm on it.
You've heard me say it in, inInstagram stories, I've said

(04:00):
it to my friends and my family.
A lot of the big jobs that I've booked.
They found me on LinkedIn.
They didn't find me on Instagram.
They didn't find me on TikTok.
They didn't find me onany of those platforms.
They found me on LinkedIn.
My personal belief, LinkedIn is one ofthe most untapped platforms that every
photographer should have a presence on.

(04:22):
When I decided that I was goingto like make LinkedIn part of
my social media content, I wentout and bought a book called The
Photographer's Missing LinkedIn.
And it was written by Jeff Brown.
This is so awesome that this serendipitousmoment happened that I bought his book

(04:42):
last year, and then this year, throughanother channel, got to interview him.
Y'all, when I tell you Jeff knowshis stuff, he knows his stuff.
He has done every niche ofphotography you can think of.
He also happens to have thisamazing knack for marketing.

(05:04):
So he's taken...
All of his experience as a photographerand all of this knowledge that he's
learned about himself as a marketer,and he's wrapped this all up in
this fantastic mentorship program.
Y'all, he has helped so manyphotographers, food photographers,
wedding, portrait, product,landscape, drone, you name it.

(05:26):
He's helped these photographersget to whatever level it is
that they're trying to get to.
I know you're going toenjoy this interview.
We talk about everything.
About his experience in the photographyindustry, and the challenges
that are faced by photographers.
We talk about the lack of unique brandy.
We talk about his SixSteps to Success program.

(05:48):
We talk about his book, TheMissing Photographer's LinkedIn.
And then he also sentme his other book, Help!
My Photography WebsiteNeeds More Customers.
He sent me that book, andy'all, that book is bangin too!
But before we get intothat, let's start the show.

(06:42):
Thank you so, so much for being here.
I was a guest on Raymond's show, aBeginner Photography Podcast, and
he made the introductions to us.
And he is like "You'vegot to interview Jeff.
Like, he knows all the thingsabout marketing, about helping
photographers market their business.
He's a great person to, tointerview for the show."

(07:05):
And I was like, heck yeah, let's do this.
Let's, let's bring you on.
From our very first conversation, Iwas like, yes, yes, this is happening.
You've got so much knowledge to,to share with photographers, food
photographers, any niche of photography.
So I'm super glad that you're here.

Jeff (07:22):
It's my pleasure.

Mica (07:23):
Thanks for joining me at eight o'clock at night.

Jeff (07:26):
It is, it is.
I was doing a webinar a couple of weeksago and that was like 10 o'clock and
I've done something at two o'clockin the morning where I've actually
had to go to bed at say 10 o'clockand set an alarm to get up for two.
Cuz I've been recording.
Cuz I do have a lot of clients in the US.
But then obviously, you know, whenyou work for yourself and you're
working from home, you can have asneaky sleeper, at lunchtime and have

(07:48):
a couple of hours to make up for it.

Mica (07:50):
Oh my gosh, I can't imagine being awake at two o'clock
in the morning for a webinar.
My sister-in-law, she's obsessed with allthings, royal family, and she stayed up
pretty much all night to watch when PrinceHarry and Megan Markle were married.
And I was like, I can't do that.

(08:10):
I need my sleep.
I'll catch the Cliff Noteson that one, you know.
I hope I can dive right in because I sentyou all the questions and I have a ton.
So there's like so much meat andpotatoes that we're gonna go through.
You have an impressive backgroundin photography, and you served
in the military as a militaryphotographer, you ran five successful

(08:33):
photography companies, and then youtransitioned into mentoring in 2015.
What was happening in your life at thattime that it inspired you to transition
into mentoring other photographers online?

Jeff (08:45):
So it was a big change in direction.
At that time, I was very successful.
I had five photography businessesand my first photography niche
was in wedding photography.
I photographed over 750weddings in my career.
It was about 2013, I had thisamazing idea, or supposedly a
amazing idea that why don't I buya country pub and restaurant, and
that could be like a wedding venue.

(09:06):
So we could actually host the weddingsand do the photography as well.
Brilliant's idea.
So I found the perfectplace, fell in love with it.
It was actually a 16th century,venue with real fires and a complete
with two ghosts as well, apparently.
So I bought the lease on it, fittedit out, spent, uh, about 160, 170,000

(09:27):
of my own money, getting it done.
And within 12 months itwas failing horrendously.
It was, it was bleeding money.
I'd, I'd racked up another 60,000pounds worth of debt on top of
that, and I just had to get out.
I had to get out and Idid something stupid.
I decided that I couldn't cope anymore.
And one night I got extremely drunk anddecided to drive the car off a bridge.

(09:48):
But I failed because I was so drunk.
Made a massive, an attemptto, to take my own life.
Woke up the next morning,realized something had to change.
Luckily, I got out the pub withinabout three or four weeks from that,
and I wanted to change the wholedirection and I, I felt so ashamed
of my failure that, I ended upmoving away from my hometown as well.
And I moved into the countryside whereI live now, about an hour and 15 minutes

(10:11):
away from where I'm originally from.
It's because I had to rebuild myselfand rebuild my, my whole mental state.
It's now all gonna be about a lifestylebusiness, and it's gonna be about working
online and rebuilding my whole brand.
I went through a divorce at the same timeas well, and they split the businesses
up, obviously had all debt to deal withand then created a, an online mentoring

(10:36):
program because marketing and brandingwas something I was a bit of an expert at.
I wanted to educate andinspire other photographers.
I'd already done that with friends andhad a mini sort of mentoring program
that I ran prior to having the venue.
And when I look back at it now, althoughat the time it was like one of the darkest
time in my 52 years I've been alive.

(10:58):
I class it now is my best failureever because if I hadn't done that,
I wouldn't have taken the direction,I wouldn't end up where I am now.
And I've had so many amazing opportunitiesworking with people in over 22 countries
around the world I'm working with.
I've had so much come into the businessand I, and I'm in a beautiful place.
We're in the countryside.
I'd always wanted tomove to the countryside.

(11:19):
And now I'm here.
I have a very much lifestyle business.
Spend a lot of time with my daughter.
I absolutely love it.
So you sort of like learn that, youknow what really seems really horrendous
at the time, and God, how can I cope?
How can I live with this?
By God?
Imagine if I'd gone through with that?
What would I have missed?
And now I'm at thehappiest I've ever been.

(11:40):
I don't have the 18 staffI had when I had the pub.
I don't have all the photographers Ihad when I had the photography business.
It's me, a few freelancers whowork with me and my business
and it's doing phenomenal.
And I love it.
It's, and it's on my terms.
I'm the least stressed I've been in myentire life, so, yeah, it's fantastic.

Mica (11:58):
I really do appreciate you sharing that with me, and
I'm glad that you're here.
How did your experience as a militaryphotographer shape your career as a
mentor in the photography industry?

Jeff (12:10):
Well, as a military photographer, it helped shape my initial business, as being
a wedding photographer because one ofthe things with the military is attention
to detail, and being able to keepeverything on time and, and, and worked
tight, tight, strict schedules for that.
That set us up to be really goodwedding photographers, even though we'd
never photographed brides and grooms.

(12:31):
Because my ex-business partner who,who was in the the business with me was
an ex-military photographer as well.
We both met while working for theintelligence services, cuz we've
both worked for them for a couple ofyears as intelligence image analysis.
Some of the things with the mentoringside are things that the, the military
has helped with it is really like theorganizational and the forward planning.

(12:51):
And then I've obviously grown on thatand built on that over the years.
One of the biggest tools for me , thathas helped me in my business, but in,
in my personal life is Amazon Audio.
It's been fantastic.
I looked at my audiobooks the otherday and I've got 320 audio books
in my Amazon library that I'velistened to over the past five years.

Mica (13:14):
How many?

Jeff (13:15):
Yeah, over 320.
I, I, I don't listen tomusic in the car anymore.
Whenever I drive thecar, I, I educate myself.
Whenever I take a dog, my dog for a walk,and he's a hyperactive spring spaniel.
He needs lots of exercise.
I educate myself and the only time Ilisten to music is when I'm exercising.
I don't watch the news.
I haven't watched the newsfor about three years now.

(13:35):
I don't read newspapers.
I just get updates of, of friends Iknow, you know, oh, we've changed Prime
Minister again, or, or such and suchhas died, or something like that, you
know, so I, I work purely on the ideaof, I, I concentrate and work on the
things that I have control of in my life.
And anything else, I just, I don't letit bother me because I'd been at that
fragile stage six or seven years ago.

(13:57):
I don't want to get back there.
Listening to audio books and beingable to educate and learn, as opposed
to get in and put the TV down andon and watch rubbish, that it can
really progress your, your businessand drive you forward so much.
You can learn about anything.
It's, it's absolutely amazing.
And the other thing is learning aboutfamous people where they are because you

(14:17):
know where they are now and understandingtheir story and you're like, oh my God,
I didn't realize that person had wentthrough this and went through that.
All different types of businesses,all different types of people, but
they're all been normal people.
All come from a veryimpoverished background.
They were dyslexia.
They didn't get a qualification at school.
And that just reinforces my beliefand my ability that we can all

(14:38):
achieve something absolutely amazing.
But in order to do it, we've gottatake the right steps and head in
the right direction and ultimatelybelieve in ourselves as well.

Mica (14:48):
What you say about listening to biographies of, of great people.
It's really cool to like read aboutstuff like that cuz you can see yourself
a little in the people that you learnabout and read about, and it inspires
you to want to overcome whateverchallenges that are coming in your life.
What has been one of your favoritebiographies that you've listened to?

Jeff (15:11):
Oh, I've got so many.
Uh, I think, um, I, I can listenlike four off the top of my head now.
So, Shoe Dog by the guy who, who createdNike, and that is absolutely amazing.
$500 loan of his parents in hisbedroom selling, selling trainers
or as you call them sneakers.
James Dyson, who inventedthe Dyson vacuum cleaner.

(15:32):
He failed 5,000 timesto create that vacuum.
Nearly lost everything in a huge lawsuitbecause basically the, the vacuum cleaner
industry wanted rid of him because theyknew if his product succeeded, their
multi-billion dollar bag industry wouldvanish, and that's how they made money.
So they were all in it against him.
Nelson Mandela's book that was soinspirational and it makes you think,

(15:55):
how can you ever get annoyed withanybody ever in your life again when
this guy could forgive the peoplewho imprisoned him for over 20 years
of his life and have no hatred.
That was a phenomenal bit andthat was, it was huge as well.
27 hours.
My 15 year old daughter is passionateabout music and I want to help her and
support her, have her career in music.
I've just bought her a really nice guitarand amp that she doesn't even know about.

(16:16):
She's gonna get, there's a surprise thisweekend because when I was her age, my
dad invested 2000 pounds in me to runmy first ever business, which was a mick
fishing flies and teaching fly casting.
So I thought if I invest 1500 pounding atmy, my daughter, a really nice guitar and
a nice album that she can take to editauditions and stuff, that would be great.

(16:36):
So I've been listening to a fewmusic books from different types
of people and say their journeyso I can help and inspire her.
And I've just finished.
And I'm not a massive fan of hismusic, but I like some of his songs.
I've just finished Bruce Springsteen'sbook and it's read by him as
well, and I'm like, oh my God.
He struggled a lot with depression,all the way through his life.

(16:57):
Came from a really sort of,hard background, an abusive
father and very little support.
But he was an absoluteperfectionist and obsessed.
Obsessed with, with perfectionand being who he wanted to be.
To the point when all his friends werechatting up girls and getting drunk.
He wasn't interested.

(17:17):
He would go to concerts and standright at the front and watch the
guitarist, how the guitarist played,and then come back and play his guitar
and wake up on his bed in the morningwith his guitar still in his hand.
And then it wasn't until his earlytwenties when he discovered alcohol
and, and started pain interest in women.
He was just obsessed with hisfuture and the way he wanted to be.
And I thought that is, That's so amazing.

(17:38):
I can see that in my daughterat the moment cuz she doesn't
bother with social media.
She just watches YouTubeand learns guitar stuff.

Mica (17:44):
So she just like completely absorbs it.
That's what separates thevirtuosos from the dabblers.
Virtuos just completely immersethemself in whatever it is
that they're, they're doing.
You're gonna have to tell me how shereacts when you gift her the, the guitar.

Jeff (18:00):
Yeah, I can't wait till Friday until she sees them cuz
she's gonna be over the moon.

Mica (18:04):
That's so awesome.
And you mentioned earlier that yourdad had invested, oh, what was it,
2000 pounds in, in your first business?

Jeff (18:12):
Yeah.

Mica (18:12):
Is that something that inspires you as a mentor?
That in some ways you are investingin these new photographers by
giving them all of this knowledgeand seeing what they do with it?

Jeff (18:23):
It, it has, because my own mentoring business is very sort of bespoke.
As well as my mentoring business, I'vegot a photography website business where
we build websites for photographers.
I've written three best selling books,so that brings in income as well.
And I've got sponsorships and affiliates.
So with my, my own mentoring business,I only work with four or five
photographers, maximum per month.

(18:44):
It's usually about four.
And sometimes I'm booked acouple of months in advance.
But the good thing about how keepingit so small and bespoke is, is I can
be there for my clients all the time.
And I say to them, you know, if you'restuck with anything, just Facebook
message me a voice clip, "Jeff.
I've gotta send this quote.
I dunno what I'm doing, Jeff.
Should I do this?
Should I do that?"
And I, and, and I will alwaysget back to you within 24 hours.

(19:06):
The thing is, all these people whoare on board in my program, they soon
become friends, you know, and we havemeetups and they come up here to stay.
And what better way to feel good andit is to see your friends succeed.
I just love it.
I get so excited when people drop mea message say, "Jeff, I've just gotta
let you know I've got this contract.
Oh, you won't believe."
One of my clients messaged me the otherday, "Jeff, you won't believe this.

(19:29):
I'm now gonna be anambassador for Olympus.
And they've just sent me a camera."
Another client messaged me last week,"Oh, Jeff, I'm gonna be on Tully."
I really feel it for, for people.
Another client messaged me to say thathe just landed a a 10,000 pound job.
It really bigs me up when I see peopleget the success that they deserve.
I've said this for years aboutmy own photography, and I'll be

(19:50):
totally honest, is when I left themilitary in 2004, obviously military
training is as a photographer.
You have to jump through quitea lot of hoops to be become a,
a mil military photographer.
It's 26 weeks pass or fail, 28exams, three strikes, and you're out.
So if you fail your thirdexam, you get kicked off.
I actually failed my thirdexam and they kept me on.

(20:12):
I got through just by the, by a hair'sbreath, you know, into to becoming a pro,
a professional military photographer.
So the training was good, but behonest if I said I was never ever
the best wedding photographer,the best portrait photographer or
boudoir photographer in the world.
I had these five different businesses.
But how I did succeed is because whenwe left the military, you get money

(20:33):
to spend on becoming a civilian in it.
In the UK it's at the time ofseven and a half thousand pounds.
So quite a lot of moneyto spend on training.
So we spent that onmarketing and branding.
And the first co course I ever didwas buy a guy called Charles Lewis,
an American photography mentor.
And that was done on CDs that would sendus sort post CDs from the US, you know.

(20:55):
Then six month after we'd spendthat money, my business partner
Kev, he left the military.
So we got another seven and a halfthousand pound history settlement, and
spent that on more marketing and branding.
So we became very successful in a veryshort space of time, and it was the
brand and the message and the connectionto our ideal clients and the way that
we marketed that made us successful,not our photography, because all the

(21:18):
guys, all our competitors at the time,you know, we'd been photographing
ships and tanks and people withguns and stuff like that, and people
running around the military uniforms.
We were just new to photographing.
Brides would maybe photographed half adozen, but we were getting the bookings.
But it wasn't the photographythat was getting us the bookings.
It was the brand and the message butour clients weren't photographers,

(21:39):
so they didn't look at our images thesame way as other photographers were.
The guys who were looking at us weretechnically much better than us and
more experienced as photographers inweddings, portraits, whatever, you know?
But their branding wasn't, and theirmessage wasn't, and that's the key thing
that ultimately, because as photographers,our customers aren't photographers.

(22:01):
Our customers are consumers.
And that is the big difference, you know?
And so, yes, I did feel like a bit of afraud in a way because I wasn't anywhere
near as talented as these other guys,but I was taking business away from them.

Mica (22:14):
You're pretty bang on when you said that their messaging just wasn't spot on.
There's two sides to being a photographer.
There's the side where you have yourcamera and you take the pictures, but
then there's the other side where youhave to market yourself, brand yourself.
Your personality has to match the, thebrand that you put out on the internet.
And if there's a disconnect betweenany of those things, then you know,

(22:38):
that's not really gonna be enough to,especially now with there being so
many photographers to choose from.
Standing out with justyour work is not enough.
What challenges dophotographers commonly face?

Jeff (22:54):
One of the biggest things that photographers wrongly assume is that they,
you know, the set of their photographybusiness, and then they look at a few
photographers in their local area andthen basically copy what they've done.
They might go onto five and geta logo designed for, yeah, $20,
30 pounds, something like that.
So they, and then they'relike, right, that's it.
That's my, that's my branding done.

(23:16):
So now put a load of pretty picturesup and I'm just going to create a
website, loads of pretty pictures.
And that's it.
Now wi wait for the money to roll in.
Now they've copied somebody whohas probably copied somebody else
who's probably copied somebody else.
And all these people cumulativelywho've been copying each other,
they've probably spent in total about,I dunno, a couple hundred dollars
on marketing and brand research.

(23:36):
You know, cuz nobody's doing it,they're just copying each other.
Where the bigger brands in theworld spend literally millions and
billions of pounds on market research,understanding colors, fonts, messaging and
communication to their ideal client type.
And we don't look atthem as photographers.
We look at other photographers who aredoing things wrong in the first place.

(23:58):
You know?
So I think the big misconception with alot of photographers is, you know, I'll
say like, who are you trying to appeal to?
Who's your ideal client?
What are you trying to sell?
What are you trying to communicate?
What is your brand?
Because I come to your website, I seea logo, and I see some pictures, and
I don't, I dunno what you're about.
I don't understand what you're doing.
And then this suddenly the pennydrops and they're like, ah.

(24:18):
Yeah, because when you try andsell photographs, it's really hard.
Especially, you know, with foodphotography, when you sell a
solution, when you sell what the foodphotography brings to the client,
then it suddenly becomes easier.
People who are are buying foodphotography, if it's restaurants
and if it's hotels, if it's foodconsumers and producers and growers.

(24:41):
What you're selling there isn't the image.
You're selling visibility.
You're selling engagementon the social media.
You're selling food that theirfollowers conversely taste
and smell in their newsfeeds.
It looks like absolutely amazing.
You're selling bums on seats in therestaurant every single night of the
week you're selling full tills becausepeople are paying and buying more and

(25:03):
tagging in their friends and saying,come on, we've gotta get down here.
And when you educate people, becausepeople who buy food photography don't
buy it because they want pretty pictures.
They want a solution to a problem.
And that problem is usually lackof visibility, lack of engagement,
lack of customers, lack of money inthe till, and that is what you sell.
You sell the solution to that,and you sell what the images buy.

(25:27):
That is all part of your brand.
Your logo doesn't say that.
You need to have words andyou need to communicate.
So that you educate your clientsand when your clients come to your
website and you're speaking theirlanguage and you're saying, we know
you struggle to get engagement online.
We know you want more people in yourrestaurant every night of the week.
We understand your brand.
We are gonna create images thatposition you as the go-to restaurant

(25:48):
that everyone's gonna be taggingtheir friends in, that people
can't wait to get down and eat.
I'm a big foodie myself.
I used to have a food pub, like I said.
And constantly going on Facebook pages ofdifferent restaurants, oh my God, right?
We've gotta go here,we've gotta go here in.
Images of food are very powerful and theybring the right solution to the business.
You sell the solution, youdon't sell the photograph.

(26:10):
And that is the thing, educatingphotographers what they do.
They don't take photographs,they do something else.
If you're a headshot photographer,you don't take photographs.
You help people create the perfectfirst impression and stand out online.
It's all about who you serve andwhat you do for those people.
What are your images?
What rewards, how people's lifechanges, how their businesses change,

(26:32):
how their lives will be enhanced bythe photographs that you produce.

Mica (26:35):
That's interesting when you say photographers need to know who they
serve, what they're serving, and Iguess the, the why they're serving it.
How deep should photographers go whenthey're figuring out their brand mission?

Jeff (26:50):
What I do with my clients in, I do work with quite a lot of food
photographers, wedding photographers.
I've even got an ice hockey photographerI work with and a classic car
photographer and a motorbike photographer.
You know, so many different niches,golfing photographers, but it's about
understanding your ideal client type.
You could be a food photographer and say,"Well, I wanna work with any business

(27:12):
who, who wants photographs of their food."
Said, "No, you don't, because therewill be some businesses who have a very,
very low value on your photography."
You don't wanna work with the businesswho's gonna want a full photo shoot for
$199, leave them to the, the tire kickersand the freebie hunter type photographers

(27:32):
who do and stuff just on price.
You are gonna create a premium brand.
And that is one of the mostimportant things in the world.
So many photographers areterrified about price.
I hear all these excuses, but "Jeff, youwork with client, you've got photographers
in New York and Paris and London.
I live in Extown or X City."
And then I'll say, right,is there, is there Nike?

(27:55):
Is there a Mercedes?
Is there a BMW in your city?
Yeah.
Name some of the, is there a Hilton hotel?
Is there a Marriott Hotel?
And then when they keep saying, yes,yes, yes, I'll say what, there's money.
There's premium brands because ifevery single person bought on price
alone, all these premium brands thatwe know of would vanish overnight.
They wouldn't exist because they areultimately selling something that

(28:18):
everybody else sells, but they packageup slightly different because when
you position yourself as a premiumoffering, premium means first class
service, and high quality, and peoplewill pay that bit extra when they
believe they're receiving that.
That is one of the key things, youknow, so, but photographers believe,
oh, there's no money in my county.
There's no money in my town.

(28:39):
I can't do that.
That's absolute rubish.
It's because people will pay.
Back in October, me and my daughter wentto Copenhagen, for four days holiday.
We goes into the square in Copenhagenand here was this massive queue
outside the shop, probably about, Idunno, about a hundred yards long.
I was like, what's everybodyqueuing up for there?

(28:59):
And we walked up and itwas the Louis Vuitton shop.
It was a queue of people wanting to go in.
One of the window displays therewas this huge window and which must
have been about 14 foot by 10 foot.
An amazing display and in the center,this display was just around, one thing
was this column with a pair of gloves.
So this even window we devoted tothis pair of gloves that had a, you

(29:22):
know, you could probably buy a housefor the cost of this pair of gloves.
And I turned to my daughter andI, and I says, and we're supposed
to be in a global recession.
Look at the queue.
If people bought on price alone,that shop wouldn't be there and
that queue wouldn't be there.

Mica (29:35):
That is such a great example.
Something you mentioned earlier that Iwanna touch on that photographers need
to think about, who it is that they'reserving and why they wanna serve them.
And being a little bit more specificabout that, what if the photographers
know who they wanna serve but theydon't know anything about them?

(29:59):
How would they go about findingout about their ideal client?

Jeff (30:03):
Well, one of the ways is to put yourself in the
shoes of your ideal client.
One of the best ways to start beingable to serve your ideal client is
understand your ideal client's fears.
What keeps your ideal clientawake at night and what stops
them making a purchase as well?
If you're a food photographer, sowhat is keeping people awake at night?

(30:23):
Who, who need food photographs?
Well, ultimately they might feel that.
They're not getting anywhere online.
They look around at other people's socialmedia and see there's more engagement.
There's more visibility, or they'vecreated these beautiful products, these
food products, but they never look as goodon the images that they take themselves.
They don't show the craftsmanshipof their beautiful artisan breads

(30:46):
that they bake and stuff like that.
So it's about understandingyour client's fears.
How you can position yourself,align yourself and address their
fears right at the very beginning.
You can say something like, youknow, you, you are an expert.
You're an expert bakery.
You create the most amazingartisan bread, but it never
looks that good on social media.
It doesn't look as delicious as it looksin in the store when people come in.

(31:11):
But don't worry.
This is where we come in.
You be the expert, you break thebread, we'll create the images and
create that excitement and that appealfor the, for what you are making.
So you're offering a service tohelp and enhance that person's
talents and get them seen.
Think about businesses with food thathave a story and a mission, because

(31:32):
it's very hard for them to take picturesthat, that tell that story in a mission
because they can't compute that,they can't get that into their head.
They're just say, right,we've got this great story.
Our sausages are made with this rarebreed of pig that my grandfather
started breeding 50 years ago, and thisis the heritage within our business.

(31:54):
But they just take a picture of thesausages but you as a photographer,
I think, right, this is howwe're gonna create this shoot.
So this image tells a story because,ultimately, if we don't tell that story
about your business, people are not gonnabe able to understand why they're paying
three times as much for your sausageas the one that you get from Walmart.
But when they understand that yourbrand and your mission the story

(32:16):
behind it, then that hence is value.
And a lot of brands that do thingsdifferently always have a story and a
mission, and that ultimately aligns peopleinto raving fans because people will pay
a bit more when they believe in a businessand a business has a particular mission.
There's a lot of coffeeshops do that, isn't they?
One of my clients took me to a, a coffeeshop in London and we had a meal there,

(32:37):
and we're drinking this coffee and shesays, "Have you noticed anything, Jeff?"
I was like, "Yeah.
These plates and thesecups are really weird."
Yeah.
Because it was a very eco-friendly,sort of organic everything, coffee shop.
There's a lot of vegan and vegetarianstuff, and found out that the coffee
cups and the plates were made fromrecycled coffee beans, so you know,
all the waste that comes out thecoffee machine, it's compacted and

(33:00):
made into their plates and cutlery.
Why is it not on the menu?
Why is it not on the flyers?
It wasn't communicated anywhere,so why are they hiding this?
Because people would love that.
The type of people who frequent thatplace would love to know that even
down to what they're eating off isrecycled and it's serving the planet.
But that, that message wasn'tcommunicated in their marketing.

Mica (33:20):
Oh, that's so insane.
I'm trying to envision these cups andplates made out of recycled coffee ground.

Jeff (33:27):
They're very strong, but they were super light.
There was like no weight to them, butthey were really, really thick as well,
like really chunky cups and chunky plates.
Yeah.

Mica (33:34):
You're absolutely right.
I care about the impact that I'mmaking on this planet and if that's
something that a coffee shop marketed,I'm willing to pay a little bit extra
because I know that buying my coffeefrom them, I feel less guilty about
the eco footprint that I'm making.
I remember reading something about how asuccessful business can have 100 customers

(33:57):
and that's it, just 100 customers.
But those are 100 loyal customers,and that is so much more valuable than
having 10,000 fair weather customers.
The ones that are loyal that willbe there for you no matter how bad
things get, I'm gonna go and get mycup of coffee from this coffee shop.

(34:18):
Because I want them to stay open andI'll do my part to make that happen.

Jeff (34:23):
As photographers, we can turn that on for ourselves as well.
A lot of my clients, when we come to thepricing aspect of my mentoring, I said,
we, what we are not trying to do is getyou a hundred clients or 200 clients.
What we're trying to do is maybeget you 25 clients who use you
at least four times a year.
Especially in the food industry,because the food industry, is a

(34:44):
seasonal industry that menus change.
You have a summer menu,winter menu, a spring menu.
You have Christmas menus, Easter menus.
At the moment now there's morephotographers than there ever has
been in the history of photography.
The market is oversaturated.
80% of photography businessesactually fail in the first two years.
But that is all at the very base level.

(35:05):
That is because people are going inas generalists and freelancers, and I
say to people, niche and specialize.
And then when you've niche andspecialized, you've chosen your sector,
whether that be pet photography, foodphotography, wedding photography,
then you become something different.
So you don't just become a weddingphotographer, you become the
country house wedding photographersyou are specializing in people.
Getting married in a country house.

(35:27):
So you could be an outdoor dogphotographer and you do all
your dog photography outdoors.
So you become a food photographer whohelps your restaurants, food grows,
and food producers tell their story.
The story behind their brand.
As a photographer, you become avalued part of their business, so you
become an asset to their business.
So you understand, you don't takea picture until you understand all

(35:51):
the ins and outs of their business,their story, their mission, what
they're trying to communicate.
Because until you know thatyou can't take a picture and
effectively communicate that.
And then what you do is sit, forinstance, you have a package and this
is your pa and you should, I will say,you should never charge by the hour
or charged by the day or the half day.
You should create packages becausepeople don't wanna buy your time.

(36:13):
They wanna buy a solution.
So you create a solution andyou may create it: spring
season visibility package.
So you create this package.
And so for instance,that package is $2,499.
So that becomes the price of your package.
But they're not buying oneday's worth of photography.
They're buying three months worthof engagement on their social media,

(36:33):
three months worth of seasonalengagement on their social media.
So you sell them the whole, whatthey get in, you don't sell 'em
that one day's worth of photography.
So what you do is then you start creatingloads of little seasonal customers.

Mica (36:46):
They're not paying for your time, they're paying for your solution.
That is just brilliant.
I wanna talk about your latest book.
Thank you by the way forsending your book over to me.
Just to start off, will youtell the listeners what your
most recent book is called?

Jeff (37:02):
So my most recent book is something I've been wanting to write
for ages, and it's called "Help!
My Photography Website NeedsMore Customers," and it's how
to build what I call a scroll toa sale photography website that
converse visitors into customers.
At the time I started to writethe book, Google was starting
to change its algorithm.
Which has now come in line witheverything that I teach and talk

(37:25):
about in that book and something thatI've been passionate about getting
photographers to create for years now.

Mica (37:31):
Why did you decide to write a book specifically focused on this topic?

Jeff (37:36):
Because most photographers have what I call a portfolio style website.
And a portfolio style website is onlygood if you're trying to sell to other
photographers because like we said atthe beginning of the interview, somebody
comes to their website, they don't knowwho you are, what you do, what you do
for them, you can't communicate it.
Now imagine if you were gonna buya new car and you went to a car

(37:56):
dealership, and you went on thatwebsite and all you saw was pictures
of cars and a logo of the garage.
That was it.
You didn't know what time they opened.
You didn't know how much the cars were,you didn't know what the model came
with, like what features, how manymiles per gallon, what color was inva
available and what the terms were.
Likewise, if you went to a hotel andyou just saw pictures of their rooms and

(38:17):
that was it, and it didn't tell you howmuch it was, what time breakfast was,
what facilities it has, whether they letpets, whether it's a kid friendly hotel.
But photographers are the onlyindustry that thinks, hang on a minute,
we'll stick a logo up, we'll putsome pictures and people coming by.
They won't, they want information.
It's information that createsa desire and excites people.
In August, Google released what wascalled a helpful content update.

(38:40):
It basically said if you go andGoogle the helpful content update,
so go for the Google and type inthe help helpful content update.
You'll be able to find two sortof white papers, one from, I think
it was the 18th of August, 2022.
The other is, I think it's the 6th ofDecember, 2022, and then Google is give
hints and IDs and tips as to what itis now looking for in the algorithm.

(39:02):
It is now looking for websiteswith helpful inspirational content.
Written for consumers, not for robots,and search engines that help and
communicate people what the journeyis, the client buy-in journey.
So giving them a solutionto their problems.
Google's even gone as fast to say thatwebsites with low value content, i.e.

(39:26):
content that's stuffed with keywords andwritten for robots and search engines.
Or websites that have very, verysmall amounts of written content
will stop ranking on Googleand will start to be penalized.
And unfortunately, that drops allthe portfolio style of photography
websites into that category.

(39:46):
When you write what I call a stroll to asale website, and that's what my business,
the photographer suite, all based upon.
Not only are you writing to actuallycreate desire and get your customer
to take action, you also give gettinga big tick in the box from Google
as well, because you're creating thetype of content that people want.

(40:06):
Most other businesses dothis, but photographers don't.
If you continue to have thisportfolio gallery style website, you
will start to see a huge decline.
The other thing about havinga portfolio style website,
it, it's hard to manage you.
You haven't got a call to action.
You're not getting people to do anything.
When somebody comes to yourwebsite, they can do four things.
They can actually do five things, butthe four things you can possibly do on

(40:29):
any website, any type of website, anywebsite in the world, you can land on the
website and then dial the number that'son the website, call the person direct.
You can make a purchase by clickinga Buy Now or a Book Now button.
You can schedule something in advance.
So you can schedule a callor schedule an appointment.
You can leave your email address inexchange for something cuz you're not

(40:51):
in a position yet ready to purchase.
So those are the only four forms ofaction you can take on a website unless
you take the fifth form of action.
And the fifth form of action isto hit the most used button on the
internet, which is the back button.
And go to the next search solutionand go on a website that does give you
options and does give you a call toaction because if somebody doesn't phone

(41:12):
you, leave their email address, make apurchase, or schedule a call with you or
schedule a photo shoot, then that's it.
They're gone.
You've got no way of trackingthem and getting them back.
Once they hit the back button andthey'll land on somebody else's website
who communicates and then promptsthem to do one of those four things.
They've won the business and you haven't.

Mica (41:32):
That call to action you mentioned, the instructing your
visitor, this is how we start theprocess of us working together.
What are some common mistakesfood photographers make when
designing their websites and howcan they avoid these mistakes?

Jeff (41:51):
First of all, what you wanna do is think of what the
every website should have.
It should have a main purposeand then a secondary purpose.
My website, for example, myown website for my mentor in
thephotographersmentor.com.
The purpose of my website is notto sell my mentoring program.
It gives enough information aboutmy mentoring program to help
people make an informed decision.

(42:12):
It price qualifies them as well.
So everybody who goes to my price, tomy page knows how much my program is.
There's no messing about because I don'twanna waste time spending half an hour
doing a call with somebody who wants todo a mentoring program with a $200 budget.
So people come to my, come to book acall with me in the pre-qualified, but

(42:33):
because, my mentoring program, it'slike a lifetime commitment program.
I'm with you for thelife of your business.
It has a one-off fee of1000 year, 295 pounds.
Now that fee, nobody has ever gone tomy website and booked that outright
because no one is gonna spend,you know, over $2,000 on a program

(42:54):
without first speaking to somebody.
It is, it's a higher ticket value item.
So what I do is my websitedoesn't have a book now button.
It has a schedule a call.
The purpose of my website is to getsomebody to have a call with me.
Now if you look at all car websites,like most car websites like Mercedes,
BMW, Jaguar, Ford, you will go on there.

(43:16):
They don't sell the car, theysell the test drive cuz the
test drive is the easy step.
You can't sell a 50,000, $60,000car and somebody's not gonna go
up and, oh, I'll chuck that on mybasket and I'll check out unless
you've got a serious amount of money.
Right?
The easiest solution because theyknow once you get there down to the
dealership and you get, you sat inthere and they're taking out for

(43:36):
a drive, then the chances of thatconversion are gonna be a lot easier.
So if you are a food photographerand your packages start at $2,000,
you should not be trying to sellyour photography on the website.
What you wanna do is sell somethinglike a consultation call, which
is, we'll give you an online,branding imagery review call.

(43:56):
I'll give you a free 30 minute callthat is your chance to impress.
You have a price there on your website.
I'm very much up for pricing.
Putting a price on the website, it'sa big thing that people go, oh no, you
shouldn't get a price on the website.
It's the first thing aconsumer wants to know.
And another thing why priceis so important on a website,
it filters out the crap.
It means that people who get intouch with you are pre-qualified.

(44:19):
So you could put your baseline priceon there so everybody who gets in
contact is pre-qualified, but youhave four or five packages and the
more the person spends the bettervalue from money the package is.
And that's how the car industry works.
I say for your own mental health,you must have your price on there.
And the reason being is I have alot of people and have conversations
with photographers and " JeffI'm just starting to doubt myself

(44:40):
because I've had 10 inquiries thisweek and everyone's told me I'm too
expensive and I'm only charging $500.
So eight prices on your website?
No, but what you've done is you,are you leaving your website gates
open to attract all the wrong peoplecuz you haven't qualified them.
I says, how, how long did youhave to spend on each one of these
wrong inquiries or type emails to.

(45:02):
Each one of them mighthave been half an hour.
You've wasted five hours of your time.
I would rather have one inquiry from oneprice qualified person who believes in
me and has value of what I'm doing than10 inquiries from people who aren't price
qualified, because those tend to peoplewhen they tell me I'm too expensive.
All they're gonna do is start making medisbelieve in myself and doubt myself.

(45:24):
And then the imposter syndromecomes in and the bad feelings.
But you were never too expensive.
You just had the wrong people turning up.
They didn't have a high perceivedvalue in your photography.
They will never spend a lot of moneyin photography, and that's the thing.
There were other people out therewho do, if your brands right, if your
brand looks premium, you'll attractpremium people, and then if your price

(45:45):
qualify them and then get them to takeaction, you can guarantee that most
of those inquiries that come through.
Have the budget, love what you do.
They hold you in high esteem becauseyou've got a premium looking brand and
they're ready to start talking aboutbusiness, and that is the big difference.

Mica (46:01):
You hit it on the nail when you said that putting your rates on your website,
it filters out the crap from the glitter.
Why do you think photographersare so scared to put their
rates on their website?
What's the biggest fear, do you think?

Jeff (46:14):
When he's selling your own stuff, you have that emotional attachment.
Don't you see your ownwork as creative people?
And we struggle with that.
We struggle with charginganything for what we do, and
it's that, that self-belief.
It comes down to brand.
The funny thing about brandingis we all actually know it.
When I work with clients on aone-to-one basis, the first thing
we do is the first model is brand.
And I say, you know, people come to meand Jeff, I wanna start my website now.

(46:36):
I wanna do Facebook ads, I wannado Google Ads, I wanna do this.
I want more business coming in.
Now, we can't do any of that yet.
We gotta get your message right first,because if we start doing Facebook ads or
if we start doing stuff to your websiteand we don't have the brand and we don't
have a message, all we are gonna do iscontinually attract the wrong people.
So you need to know your, you need tohave your right brand in the right message

(46:56):
before you start doing Facebook adsand Google ads and promotions, because
you are gonna attract the wrong people.
Now I've got, um, uh, a photographerwho's headshot photographer
in Nashville, Tennessee.
Karen Elle Richards and Karen's priestincreased our prices now six times.
She's now the most expensiveheadshot photographer in her area.

(47:16):
But she's got her prices on her website.
Her brand looks premium and high end, andbecause she's looking premium, high end,
people think, yeah, that looks expensive.
Quality, great service.
The people who she's trying to attractare executives, entrepreneurs, business
owners who want to look good on socialmedia, value images of themselves.

(47:39):
They don't want to snap.
They want to create theright first impress.
They want to look like a thought leader.
So they're feelingreassured by Karen's brand.
And yeah, she's a bit expensive,but it's gonna be worth it
cuz I'm investing in myself.
It's a cost against my business.
Funny enough, since she's increasedher price six times now, she
has less price conflict thanwhen she was actually cheaper.

(48:00):
Six price decreases ago,if you know what I mean.
So she actually had less peopleworried about the price than
when she was cheaper than now.
She had to get any price conflict.
And now she might work for lesspeople, but for more money.
So she's got more time free on a weekend.
The funny thing is, if you wereto, to look at Karen's photographs

(48:23):
from now, back to two years ago,our photographs haven't changed.
Photographs are still the same.
Our photography's still the same.
It's the outer packaging and the messagethat's changed and that's the key.
The brand and the brandmessage has changed.
She's connected.
She's hit with the right people.
The price is just qualified that even morefurther than it's premium and it's high

(48:45):
end because people don't buy on price.
People buy on perceived value.
If everybody bought on Price, Tiffany's,Mercedes, Jaguar, Hilton Hotels would all
go bust overnight and it wouldn't exist.
But these brands happen to go on andthese brands have people queuing up
in Copenhagen to get in the door.

Mica (49:03):
Just tie it to like the perceived value, but they also tie it to how it
makes them feel when they have this.
If I had Tiffany's jewelry, I'dbe showing that thing everywhere.

Jeff (49:15):
I was a bit stucker to get my girlfriend for Christmas, so I got a
few little bits and bob's and I thought,I wanna get something really, she's
always really nice and supportive to me.
I thought, well, I'm.
Get something from Tiffany.
So I went under Tiffany's website.
I thought I'll get a,a Tiffany's necklace.
And then the necklace is a beautiful,and oh my God, they're expensive.
Probably like I'll get one.
She deserves it.
So I ordered one.

(49:36):
And I tell you what, I've neverhad customer services like it from
the minute the order went throughthe, the emails are coming through,
your package is tracked now.
Bill is now busy packaging your ordertogether and sending it to Dave, who's
now gonna just look over it again.
Then it's gonna John, our delivery driver.
I must have had about 30emails off that company.
And then after it was delivered,more emails, you know, because

(49:58):
with them it's right from the firstinteraction and then afterwards
that that value carries through.
But then I opened the box and I waslike, oh my God, this looks is amazing.
You open the box and then there's abox within a box and then that comes
in another box and you open that andit's got a little pouch and then,
and then by the time he cut, thenyou open this tiny little necklace
and I'm like, what's quite small?

(50:20):
And in comparison to the amount ofmoney, and I think you can't tell me
that 700 pounds worth of, of silver,you know, compared to something
you could get in the I street.
But what did, how did that make her feelwhen I wrapped it up and give her to her
Christmas, the perceived value, oh my God.
It's Tiffany's, you know, it'slike photographs of, it's going
on our, our Facebook page.

(50:41):
But yeah, it's, people arebelieving in that perceived value.

Mica (50:44):
It's like, look, look what I got for Christmas.
I got Tiffany's,

Jeff (50:50):
Anything like that, like your cars, they sell on how the car makes you feel.
Expensive watches don't sellon how you're on taking time.
I've got quite an expensive tagwatch that I wear I've got on now,
and it's actually one of the worsttimekeeping watches I've got.
But I didn't, I didn't buy it to,to tell time I bought it cuz I

(51:10):
bought it as a reward for myself.
If I wanted it to tell time, Iwould've been better off buying a
watch for 10 pounds cuz it woulddo a better job than this one does.

Mica (51:18):
I have my Apple watch and my husband thinks it is the most
ridiculous purchase on the planet.
And for me, I'm like, I can pingit when I can't find my phone.
And that's a big deal cuzI lose my phone a lot.
I can look at my text messages if I'min a meeting and I can decide if this
is something that I need to addressright now or if I can save it for later.

(51:40):
I love this thing.
I love what it does for me.
It's part of my lifestyle.
It's everything.
I've used it for everythingbut telling the time.
I want your opinion on this, because Ihave a feeling that food photographers
tend to confuse or muddle the differencebetween branding and marketing, cuz

(52:00):
they're two very different things.

Jeff (52:02):
I have a program called the Six Steps to Success Programs.
It is laid out in a way that I don'tlet my clients go onto the next step
till have completed the first because.
It's like foundations.
It's like you building a house.
It's called the Six Steps, butthere's about eight steps to it now
cause I keep adding extra to it,but I don't wanna change all my,
my, my brand around the six steps.

(52:23):
But we start with setting goalsand you set your goals first.
And then once you've got your goals inplace, we'll break those goals down and
decide how we're gonna achieve them.
Because most photographersdon't set goals properly.
They'll just set a financial goal.
Yeah, I wanna make a hundredthousand dollars this year.
And that's it.
They don't think about how they'regonna achieve that and break that down.
And usually it's not themonetary goal that works.

(52:43):
It's the root to the monetarygoal that is the key thing.
I might wanna make X amount of money,but I look at where I'm gonna do that.
I, if I do 30 podcasts per year,that increases my visibility, that
gets me more opportunities, thatgets me more social media follows.
That gets me more inquiries.
Which will ultimately make me more money.

(53:05):
So I don't, I don't chase themoney, I choose the individual goal.
So we go do the goals first,and next thing is brand.
And then the next bit is desire.
So brand is your colors, your fonts,you feel in how you want people
to think, feel, and believe whenit, when they look at your brand.
If you think of Walmart and thenyou think of a premium supermarket,

(53:26):
you'll have different feelings.
That concept comes from theirlogo, their colors, their fonts.
So that is brand.
Then desire is the message, the messagethat the brand puts at, and that
is created in, in the written word.
That is the most powerful thing Now.
That is your brand.
Your brand is, is the words, yourmessage, your font, your colors.
Marketing is how we actually telleverybody about what we've just created.

(53:50):
See, your brand has to be done first.
And if you think about it,we're all brand experts.
We all have.
We know what looks expensive andwhat looks premium, and it's the
colors, the fonts, the messagethat we were attracted to.
I could put you in frontof three different candles.
And you would be able to say,oh, I'm going for that one cuz
that looks quality, but it's thecandle inside that glass candle it.

(54:17):
The wax is probably just thesame as all the other ones.
It's the message in the you.
It's that perceived value.
And there's a, even the uk, allthe supermarkets have like a taste
the difference or a best of range.
And these are, these go on the endaisles and they're, they're in different
boxes than the rest of the supermarket.
Cheesecakes or, or sticktofi puddings or apple pies.

(54:37):
But these boxes are really nice.
They use golds and purples andblacks and silvers, and platinums.
These are colors, golds, purple, silver,and platinums that is associated with
wealth and royalty and prestigiousness.
And they use certain types ofscripts and certain types of funds.
So that when you look at that box, yougo, oh, that looks nice, doesn't it?
Oh, but the product inside is verysimilar to the, the cheaper products.

(55:01):
They've just put a few swells on thecheesecake, put some flicks of chocolate
on, put it in a nice box that allowsthem to charge a lot more for it.
And that is the power of the brand.
But as consumers, we've been marketedto with brand in colors, fonts.
And message ever sincewe were little kids.
So we can walk past the restaurant thatwe've never been to before and you can

(55:22):
decide whether you're going to eat,then how much are you gonna pay, pay
for that food just by looking at themenu without actually seeing a dish.
It's what you call curbside appeal.
If you look like a restaurant andgo, well, here, that I thought,
oh, I like the twinkly lights.
Oh, that menu looks nice.
The window up.
And then you've got the, you know, they'reusing sage greens and they've got s in
their fonts and they're using a particulartype of script and it just looks premium.

(55:46):
You've already put a perceived valueof what you're gonna pay for steak
and chips or fish and chips in there.
Right?
But you've never been in before.
That's the power of perceivedvalue and the power of branding.
It's creating a feeling.
And we all recognize it, but then wedon't look inside our own business.
Funny enough, I say to my clients,and Karen knows Tony about that
headshot photographer, Karen uses thesame font on her website as Chanel.

Mica (56:09):
People make that connection.
What are some key metrics thatphotographers should track to measure
their website's effectiveness?

Jeff (56:17):
One of the things is obviously how many people actually come to your
website, and you will say, once you'vestarted creating content that is appealing
to your clients, then they will bestaying on your website for longer.
But what you wanna be doing is makingsure they're actually taking some
form of action on your website.
Now by having multiple call to actions.

(56:37):
So you might have a, if yourcall to action is to book a free
branding imagery review call.
Then give them a secondary call to actionas well if they're not ready for that.
So you could get 'em to book that call,but if they're not ready for that,
they could download your helpful PDFguide on how to take better photographs

(56:59):
with your iPhone of your food, or howyou know, five steps to improving your
online posting social media postingwith attention grabbing imagery.
Anything in exchange to get their emailaddress, because what you want to do
before they go, if they're not goingto, if they're not gonna get in contact
with you, if they're not gonna make apurchase or they're not gonna make a

(57:19):
call, at least get their email addressso you can keep in touch with them, and
then you can remarket it to them again.

Mica (57:24):
That comes with the how photographers can evolve
their brand over time.
And you know, cuz like you said, thehigh value purchases, no one's gonna
make that first high value purchase justfrom looking at your website right away.
What you said right there is whatcan you do to capture that person's

(57:45):
email to keep in contact with them?
Once a photographer gets that client'semail, what are some ways that
they can stay in contact with them?

Jeff (57:54):
One of the best things you can do, not only for keeping in contact with
people who are on the email list, but thenfinding future people is to write blogs.
Blogs are so powerful andshould become a part of every
photographer's working routine.
What you wanna do is write blogs thatanswer your clients questions at the
moment of search, answer their problems.

(58:16):
When you have blogs that answer people'squestions, you're gonna get found
because there's two types of search.
There's direct search and indirect search.
So direct search could be foodphotographers near me, uh, food
photographers in Austin, Texas.
So there, that's somebody who'slooking for a food photographer.
Now another way that you can get infront of your client is people who's

(58:37):
got a problem that haven't actuallylooked for a food photography yet,
but they're trying how to get moreengagement on my social media post.
How to take better photographs ofthe food I make, you know, better
lighting tips for photographing food.
If you can create blogs that answerthose questions, you are gonna
capture people at the other end.
If you go to the Photographer's Mentorwebsite, you'll see that my website is

(59:00):
optimized on the front page for peopletyping in photography, marketing,
photography, mentor, and these are peoplewho I've identified problems with in their
business and they're looking for a mentor.
But my blog, which is called the Go toPhotographer's blog, it has a name, it
has a purpose, and it has a mission.
If you look on there, there's18 blogs I think on there at the
moment cuz just uploaded a couple.

(59:22):
They are, for people who atthe moment, having problems
within their business, haven'tidentified yet, they need a mentor.
But I could write blogs on, yeah, howto get more inquiries to my photography
website, how to price my photography.
What I'm doing is I'm capturingthese people's addresses
by writing blogs for them.
Also within the blog, I'mdirecting them to another blog.
If you've enjoyed this, youlike, you might like this one.

(59:44):
It'll give you more information.
I also send them to myYouTube channel as well.
And you also might like this videothat works alongside this blog.
And then I've got threebest selling books.
I'll usually mention one of my books.
Anyway.
So you tend to find thatpeople go through this process.
If they'll read the blog, they sign up tomy email because they've read the blog,
they'll then go along and maybe sign up tomy YouTube channel to potentially purchase

(01:00:08):
my book, which when they read the book,they build a bit more of a relationship.
And then maybe, I don't know, 10 monthsa year down the road, I'll get a call
booked in and I'll jump on a call withsomebody and like, hi Jeff, how you doing?
You.
You know what?
I read your blog about a year agoand I bought a copy of your LinkedIn
book, and I've been doing that for awhile, and I've been following you.
Then I bought you goal setting book, andI just thought, I need to speak to this

(01:00:30):
guy and, and work with you one to one.
So I'm really keen to join your program.
And I'm like, wow.
That was quick.
I might come off the, off acall in 15 minutes and this
person's, they've signed up.
There was hardly any selling.
They've sold themselves because myblogs and my content has done that.
If you look at any of my stuff, you'dbe very hard pushed to find sales posts

(01:00:50):
from me, cuz I just don't sell, I give.
But by giving people come back,it's all about creating that
value and creating that content.
And I'm a crap salesman anyway, soI wouldn't, I wouldn't be reading.

Mica (01:01:03):
At what point should a photographer seek out a mentor like you?

Jeff (01:01:07):
I would say it, it can be at any point.
I've worked with, who've beenphotographers for 30 years and then
all of a sudden they're, they're reallystruggling because things have changed.
There might have been a commercialphotographer and they've, they've went
from one set of clients to the next.
They've always been recommended.
Then all of a sudden there's newblood comes into a company and
they're not using them anymore.

(01:01:28):
They're this new company, ah,will get somebody from Instagram.
Like it's a younger generation.
The other one is people who arejust, just starting out now.
You always think, well, the thingwith mentoring, whether you go with
me or whether you go with any, anybodyelse, and there's lots of really
good photography mentors out there.
If you get a really trusted andexperienced mentor, they can not only
save you a lot of money, they can saveyou a lot of years and they can save you

(01:01:51):
making a lot of mistakes that they made.
I made some stupid mistakes.
One of my most expensive mistakesin my photography business was
believing that radio advertisingwould work and spending a fortune and
getting absolutely nothing from it.
So I've done lots of things thatI would never, ever do again.
Having a mentor, they can guide youalong that route of creating the
perfect business and the perfectdirection for your business.

(01:02:13):
And then you've got thataccountability and support.
When people sign up with me, theydon't just sign up to get a mentor.
They sign up to, to havesomebody who's there who will
kick their backside as well.
And they've got that accountability.
And I like that, drives people.
Cuz I can teach everybody whatthey need to be a real success
within their business, but it'sup to them to implement it.
And it's very much like joining the gym.

(01:02:34):
You can pay for gym fees, but if you'regonna sit at home and eat Dominoes pizzas,
and not go, then it's not gonna, it'sgonna, it's not gonna make any difference.
It's the people who implement myprogram and do it who see the results.
If you don't do it, youwon't see the results.
It's as simple as accurate.

Mica (01:02:51):
What would you say is the biggest breakthroughs that they have are one
of the biggest breakthroughs they have?

Jeff (01:02:57):
One of the biggest things is when realizing that how sometimes for
years they've overthought the successperiod, the success thing, you know?
And it's about setting the goalsand then taking steps towards it.
I've had wedding photographers wherewe've created the brand and then
they said, right, what you're gonnado is you're gonna app approach
five or six wedding dress shops andcreate a joint venture with them.

(01:03:18):
So every time a client comes into theirsand they speak to them, they go, they
go behind the till, get out a specialVIP voucher to give to their client.
That will give them $800 off the costof a wedding photography package.
But when that client comes to yourstudio with his voucher, you then
reward the person in the bridalshop, $50 or a hundred dollars.

(01:03:39):
That's gonna make them work even harder.
We had that, that process with a,with our wedding business and, and one
bridal shop alone got us, was gettingwith about 40 weddings per year.
Another bridal shop we had,we worked with there, got us.
One girl in the bridal shop got us24 weddings in a year because she
was being financially rewarded.

(01:03:59):
If you want people to recommendpeople who already serve your
ideal clients, then it's gotta bemutually beneficial for both people.
You can utilize other people'snetwork and there's a big thing
now in business and is visibility.
Visibility is credibility.
The more visibility you become,the more credibility you have.
The more credibility you have,the more authority you command and

(01:04:21):
the more you can ultimately judge.
I have quite a big network on LinkedIn.
I've got over 50,000 on Facebook,I've got close to 50,000.
So I've got about a hundred thousandfollowers plus across social media.
But I didn't get that overnight.
One of my, my clients who's afood photographer, Emma Dunham,
you know, 18 month ago, shehad 75 followers on LinkedIn as

(01:04:43):
she's got 12 and half thousand.
She's written a bestselling book.
She's running food photographycourses for photographers.
She's, she's just in a, uh, uh,a broad speaking events, uh, of
someplace hours doing some speakingevents down in London last week.
And that's all come from visibility.
By getting ourself out there, and we gottaremember now, we, we have more opportunity

(01:05:05):
than we've ever had at our fingertips.
We can, we can speak to anybody we want,but it's how we deliver and the way we
approach people that will ultimatelydecide if you deliver correctly
and you put you pitch to anybody.
And I've pitched to some huge companies,you know, big, big brands, and they've
turned around because the pitch hasbeen mutually benefit for both people.

(01:05:26):
And I've come from a place of valueas opposed to what's in it for me.
Most people have said, tell you what,Jeff, let's have a chat about it.
Because what's the worstpeople can say is no.
So if you don't ask, you don't get.
But there's so much opportunity outthere and, and it's on your doorstep.
You just gotta.
Push.
And I see, I see that so many timesby photographers and then they get

(01:05:47):
a yes and they're like, oh God, I'mgonna go and approach this podcast.
I'm going to approach my local newspaper.
I'm gonna approach this charityand do some work with them.
I'm gonna ask this person if they'regonna endorse my brand, I'm gonna
ask this, this camera company if Ican become an ambassador for them.
And it's all this stuff justkeeps on and it's there cuz
it happens for other people.
Why can't it happen for you?

(01:06:08):
But it won't happen if you don't, if youdon't take time to seek the opportunity.

Mica (01:06:12):
And it's like you said, all it takes is that one.
Yes.
It takes looking at no,the answer no differently.
When someone says no to you not tolook at it as something with so much
finality, like, no, not right now.
So make a mental note.
One of the things that I utilizelike hell is, Google's schedule send.

(01:06:36):
Sometimes when I reach out to a guestthat I'd like on the show, and they're
just, it's just really busy and they've,they're like involved in a cookbook
shoot or they've just got projectslined up and they'll tell me, look, I'm
really busy right now, but hit me backup in September and let's connect then.
So I'll say, absolutely,I'll send you an email then.

(01:06:57):
As soon as I send that email, I typeup another email, like a follow up
email, and I schedule it to go out inSeptember, and that way I don't have
to put it as a to-do on my checklist.
It's already out there in the world.
It gets sent out and that's how,I've booked some of the photographers

(01:07:20):
and, and food stylists thathave been on the show so far.
Just taking that, no, as a not right now.
I wanna close out this interviewwith looking back on your career
as a photographer and mentor, whatare some of the biggest lessons
you've learned along the way?

Jeff (01:07:39):
You can't do it all yourself and nobody's outta reach.
Go for big brands, give value,and then people buy into you.
Really look into the, the peoplewho already serve your ideal
client and type and start tobuild relationships with them.
Look after your clients.
A lot of photographers just classthemselves as a commodity and they're just
like the same as any other photographer.

(01:08:00):
And I think what you gotta do is, ispick an area that you're really strong
at and then grow on that be different.
My brand grew because I became so wellknown on LinkedIn as a photography mentor.
Nobody else in.
In photography was using LinkedIn.
Even some of the big, the big nameson LinkedIn don't, in photography

(01:08:21):
industry, don't have anywherenear as many followers as me.
And then I thought, right, I'll takeit to the next level and wrote a book.
It's about changing your perspective.
You know, now I've got a lotmore authority because I'm
a specialist on LinkedIn andI'm an our bestselling author.
I'm commanding photographywith within my own niche.
And there's that old there, if you canhelp people achieve what they want, you

(01:08:42):
can achieve whatever, whatever you want.
I still do calls for people for free.
I give a lot my time for free.
Not with the idea that, oh, somebody'sgonna come on and, and, and book
me because even if they go awayand they, they can't afford to work
with me, or they, they don't bookme, they've become a bit of a fan.
They'll like all my, my stuffon social media, they'll

(01:09:02):
recommend me to somebody else.
They'll give me a great testimonialand they might come back in two
years time and say, you know what,Jeff, I've got a bit more money now.
I'd love to work with you.

Mica (01:09:11):
What do you hope listeners learn from today's episode?

Jeff (01:09:14):
Definitely to understand, uh about the power of brand and the,
as food photographers, you're notselling pretty pictures of food.
What are you ultimately selling?
You know, that.
Takeaway, we think about it,what, what do the clients get?
And then definitely goand, and, and Google that.
Google helpful content update.
Find out some more bad.
If you head over to my, my, my,photography website, website, the,

(01:09:38):
um, the photographer suite, he candownload a brochure and find a bit
more information about what, what,uh, scroll to a sale website is.
And you can create it yourself ifyou don't wanna get one from us.
But it's all about getting thatcontent on there, communicating.
Don't think that your images alone aregonna bring you business, cuz they're not.
It's your brand, your message, andwhat you do for the client that puts

(01:10:01):
that perceived value in your images.

Mica (01:10:04):
Oh man.
Thank you.
Where can the listeners follow youand support you and learn from you?

Jeff (01:10:10):
So that my website is the photographers mentor.com.
My photography website company thatcreates websites for photographers
is called the photographer suite.com.
And then you just have to go toLinkedIn, check out Jeff Brown, the
photographer's mentor, or Jeff Brown,the photographer's mentor on Facebook,
or the photographer's mentor on YouTube.

(01:10:32):
And drop me a message.
Drop me a connection.
Find me on Facebook.
If you do have anyquestions, just message me.
And I always reply with a voiceclip, so I am genuinely here to help.
I have three books out on Amazon aswell, so if you wanna check out any of
my business books, my next book, you'llprobably gonna be out at the end of
the year, my fourth book, which is allabout passive income from photography.

Mica (01:10:52):
Okay.
I can't wait for that one to come out.
I, I'm so excited for that one.
Man, Jeff, thank you so much for beingon the show, for taking time out of
your evening and for dropping allthis knowledge on us in this episode.
This was really awesome and I'm so gladthat you've been, that you're on the show.

Jeff (01:11:13):
Absolute pleasure, and I hope everybody's enjoyed it.
Thanks.
Thanks for having me on board.

Mica (01:11:25):
Y'all, was that an incredible conversation?
Or what?
That was some chunky, meaty,full of protein y episode.
Thank you for joining me on thishot mess express of a journey.
Remember, head over to Pod in aBox and leave me a voice message.

(01:11:46):
The link is in my bioand go check out Jeff.
Go follow him on Instagram.
If you are wanting to add LinkedInto your social media plan, which
you should be, then I highlyrecommend that you buy his book.
That's the show, y'all.
Until next time, adios,buh bye, bye, cha cha cha.

(01:12:13):
What other ways is there to say goodbye?
Oh, yeah, hasta la pasta!