June 21, 2023 • 40 mins
Mica introduces Penny De Los Santos, a renowned photographer and storyteller, in the 27th episode of The Savory Shot podcast. They talk about Penny's experiences traveling to over 30 countries and how those journeys shaped her perspective as a food photographer. They also discuss what makes a great food photo, the importance of storytelling, and the ways in which food can connect people and cultures. The challenges of being a professional photographer in a changing industry and the transformative power of travel are also highlighted. The podcast aims to explore the world of food photography and storytelling.
Savory Shot Shownote: https://micamccook.com/guests/pennydelossantos/ Website: https://micamccook.com/podcast Instagram: www.instragram.com/mica.mccook Instagram: www.instagram.com/thesavoryshotpodcast Would you like to be a guest on the show? Email us at podcast@thesavoryshot.com for more information.
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Episode Transcript
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Mica (00:00):
Welcome to the 27th episode of The Savory Shot.
What.
Y'all already know who I be, but ifthis is your first time joining this,
partaaay, allow me to introduce myself.
My name is Mica and I'myour host with the most.
(00:21):
Y'all, before I start this epic episode,I've gotta give thanks first to y'all,
the listeners, cuz boo things, y'allare the reason why this show exists.
So thank you for being here.
You could have been anywhere doinganything, but you're here with me
(00:42):
and I couldn't be more grateful.
Last episode, I celebrated theSavory Shots one year anniversary.
Hey, and y'all, I feel like I couldashould have done more to celebrate
this big moment, but indeed didI celebrate in the last episode.
So check out that episode if you wannahear what I've learned as a podcast host.
(01:07):
But y'all, y'all.
I've got to talk about today'sepisode cuz it's a doozy, and I am
so excited about this interview.
Today I'm beyond thrilled tointroduce our amazing guest, the
incredible Penny de Los Santos.
(01:28):
Penny is an extraordinaryphotographer and storyteller.
Her photos are poetic, deep,intimate, and awe inspiring.
Seriously, you've beenliving under a rock.
If you don't know whoPenny de Los Santos is.
I've been a fan of Penny'sfor years, y'all since the
(01:49):
beginning of my photography days.
Having her on the showis an absolute honor.
Y'all, we talked about so,so, so much in this episode.
I couldn't figure out what to take out.
We talked about her experiencestraveling to over 30 countries, y'all,
(02:10):
and how those journeys shaped herperspective as a food photographer.
We talked about her decision to explodeher life and move to New York, y'all.
Y'all.
We haven't gotten to the meat andpotatoes of what makes a good photo great.
But before we get intothat, let's start the show.
(03:07):
Penny, I just wanna start offby saying this is the biggest
fangirl moment of my foodie life.
If my professor were here and he couldhear this conversation, he'd be like,
Mica's like freaking out right now.
Because I talk about your work so much, sooften, and so this is a huge, huge, huge,
(03:29):
huge honor to have you here on this show.
So Thank you for being here.
Penny (03:34):
Wow, that is so sweet.
That's kind.
And I don't, I mean, that's just, wow.
Thank you.
That's beautiful to hear.
And I really appreciate that.
I'm out here strugglingtoo, you know, so thank you.
I fully accept that and take it in andI'm just like, wow, you made my day.
So thank you very much.
Mica (03:52):
You've made my year, my millennium.
I am gonna like live thisfor the rest of my life.
And I love that you're from Texas.
What.
Penny (04:01):
When I got your email, I was like, heck yo, let's do this.
I mean, especially cuz you're from Texas.
I love Texas.
Texas is going throughsomething right now.
It's, it's an intense time.
But Texas will always be home, eventhough, damn, I love living in, I mean,
I feel like this is the right city forme to be living in right now, you know?
Mica (04:20):
New York is banging.
But if it's okay with you, Iwanna dive right in because I have
some, some questions to ask you.
Penny (04:29):
I'm ready.
I'm ready.
Mica (04:31):
The first thing I wanna ask is, well, first I think I told you about
how I got introduced to your work.
It was in my photojournalism class.
Our professor was like sharing differentworks of different photojournalists.
He would present the picture and then hewould let us sit in silences for a minute.
He's like, just absorb it.
Just drink it in, and thenlet's talk about this.
(04:52):
And your work was one of the onesthat, um, the, the, the, the shot
where it's the table and it's theflat lay and it's lit by candlelight.
That's how it was introduced to your work.
And I was just blown away by everything.
Penny (05:06):
Wow.
That's so cool.
Mica (05:07):
So the first thing I wanna dive into is your Instagram.
One of your captions from January 8th,2020, you said, this year I'm committed
to doing more work that expresses who Iam as a storyteller at the heart of it.
For me, storytelling has always beenthe crossroad where food and culture
(05:27):
meet, especially around everyday life.
So my question is, what was happeningin your life when you wrote that?
Penny (05:34):
January, 2020?
Mica (05:36):
January 8th, 2020.
Penny (05:38):
Okay.
I know exactly where I was.
January, 2020 monthsbefore everything changed.
I was in southern Italy.
My first ever likeinternational exhibition.
A series of 60, images from aroundthe world about food culture and
how people connect around food.
(05:58):
I was traveling around Italyfor I think six cities, and it
was all, this is the cool part.
All of the exhibitions were inUNESCO World Heritage Sites.
So they have like historical meaning,so put images, related to food culture
in this like historical setting, it juststarts to mean something else, right?
(06:21):
So anyway, I was in Umbria and it wasprobably around the time of my opening of
this exhibition and it opened in Umbria.
I was teaching a photoworkshop at the same time.
I was feeling extremely proud of myselfthat I found something I cared about and
that I pursued it and deciding to reallydive into food because, you know, I was
(06:46):
a storyteller mostly telling storiesaround culture and place and identity.
I trained with National Geographicfor the first 10 years of my career.
And it was incredible.
And it was the dream.
That was the dream for me.
I wanted to work at National Geographic.
But it was the most intensething, emotionally for me, it
was not healthy emotionally.
(07:08):
It was very toxic.
And I inhale deeply because thattime was important in my life to
be at National Geographic and tolearn from my peers, from people
who were mentors, from editors, itwas an incredible opportunity,
but it was also really intense.
You know, I didn't anticipate howmuch I would feel like an outsider
(07:28):
and photographers are emotionalpeople, whether we admit it or not.
We're sensitive, we're emotional.
Maybe not everybody, but if you'retelling storytelling images, if
you're really trying to evoke emotion,you're an emotional person, you know?
I'm getting a little sidetracked here,but I guess what I'm trying to say is but
I guess what I'm trying to say is I wasdriven to telling stories about people
(07:50):
and I just didn't feel happy at that placethat I always thought I wanted to be at.
It was a dream.
And I worked really hard to get tothat point, you know, really hard.
Like I, when I think about the man,the hours I put into my career to get
to that point, it's crazy, you know?
I just was so unhappy.
I got my first food assignment.
That's another story, butit was this person who had a
(08:13):
career at National Geographic.
He was an editor, hewas now a food editor.
Visual editor at a magazine.
And this magazine was Saveur andthey really focused on food and
place, you know, those two combined.
So it was really an opportunity to storytell, but around a subject I didn't know.
And it, the first assignmenthe gave me was to.
(08:35):
Chile and to Peru, and it waslike a two-part assignment.
I was traveling with the same writerand she was like this, she had a PhD
in, medieval history and she was arestaurateur and she was a chef, and
she was, Cuban living in Cuban American.
Right.
Living in, in New Jersey.
(08:57):
I fly to Santiago, Chile, I meet her.
And as we're walking through themarket, you know, she's just telling
me about all these ingredients andhow they all came, like through this
continent and who brought them andhow it's used, by local people.
And then when we went to Peru togetherin that same assignment, same thing
(09:18):
when we were in Peru, she was tellingme like different ingredients.
And I just had this moment whereI was like, wow, this, this is.
This is beautiful.
You know, this is like storytellingand it's also, connection, and
it's intimacy, in photography andfood is super intimate and watching
people cook is like really intimate.
And I love cooking.
(09:38):
I think I'm a pretty good cook andI've always loved watching people cook.
I grew up watching cookingshows like, devoutly and I almost
considered going to culinary school.
I loved it that much and I onlywanted to go to culinary school.
So I would understand liketechnique and I could maybe
just have just the perspective.
I didn't wanna become a chef oranything, but it was more like maybe
it would give me license to be.
(10:01):
Even more immersed in that potentially.
So the notion of marrying those twopassions with photography was like, yes.
Mica (10:11):
I could see wanting to go to culinary school, to really
understand the why behind why theydo this and this and this and this.
I don't see how anyone cannot beobsessed with watching chefs cook.
Do you think that would have changedthe way you photographed food
had you gone to culinary school?
Penny (10:30):
Yeah, for sure.
And and I, I just also want to addit, it wasn't necessarily chefs for
me, it was just cooking, you know?
And in fact, to be really honestwith you, I prefer home cooks.
I like grandmas.
The lights way better.
You know what I mean?
It's just you're walking into a lotmore character and not that chefs
aren't interesting, but I think homecooks and home cooking and how people
(10:51):
gather is way more interesting.
When I think about it,it's like, wow, wow, wow.
I wish I could just do that.
I wish I could just get on a plane,travel to another country, photograph a
handful of six or seven people in theirhomes, cooking, gathering, photographing
it, come back and just publish it myself.
That would be like, and that's, Iguess maybe that's the goal, but,
you know, I also gotta make a livingtoo, so, nobody ever talks about
(11:13):
that part of photography, right?
You gotta make a living.
But I love cooking for people.
I love entertaining.
I love hosting.
I love hosting.
Mica (11:22):
You love hosting.
Okay, what about hostingthat you love about it?
Penny (11:27):
I love gathering people that I love and people that maybe I don't know so
well and putting 'em all in the same roomand just seeing how everybody gets along.
I love showing people like new foodsand like cooking for people, having
them enjoy the food, and most of myentertaining is like, people come over,
they're standing up, they're sitting down.
It's not like a seated dinner.
It's like a hang with somefood in the center of this big,
(11:50):
like long table that I have.
And you're mingling the nexttime you come to New York?
I'll host something andthen you'll have to come.
Mica (11:57):
Oh, I will definitely come because my last experience
with New York was not a fun one.
We traveled to Boston for my husband'sbest friend's wedding, and we got
caught in a really bad snowstorm andour flight to Austin was canceled.
Our rescheduled flighthad a layover in New York.
(12:17):
And then we were supposed to flyback to Austin from New York.
While we were on the planefrom Boston to New York, our
flight to Austin was canceled.
And we found out after we landed.
Thankfully, I had a friend wholived in Brooklyn and he and his
girlfriend let us stay there.
We had two extra days in New York, but Ididn't have the right footwear and I was
(12:41):
sick, so we couldn't really do anything.
When we left, I'm like, okay, wehave to give New York another chance.
So I definitely will take you upon that when we go to New York.
I wanna take it to that Ted talkthat you gave, where you talked about
how you were thinking about on theplane, about capturing the perfect
shot and being very careful aboutfollowing the men because they're,
(13:03):
they're very lives could be in danger.
Then with the power going outand them pulling out the candles,
and then you were like, ha.
This is the perfect moment.
This is the shot.
I've gotta get this shot.
Take me back to that moment when you sawthat photo later, like on a bigger screen.
What emotions did it invoke in you?
Penny (13:25):
Well, I remember the moment exactly.
We had left the subject's apartment,and took a taxi back to the hotel.
No, to the ri I was stayingat the writer's apartment.
Which isn't normal, but you know,this was a different assignment.
I remember, I had kind of set up a littleoffice space for myself and I loaded up
the images to my laptop and I rememberseeing that image and just, just being
(13:48):
so excited about it that I quicklyprocessed it, toned it a little bit, not
much, and then I sent it to the editor ofthe magazine and also the photo editor.
In the morning when I woke up, Ithink I wrote something in the
email about how, it was incredible.
And this, this shotis, this is what I got.
I'm so hap you know, I, I, I don'tknow what I said exactly, but
(14:09):
when I woke up in the morning,they'd already mocked it up.
They dropped it into a layoutand put a headline and I saw that
and I was just like, oh my God.
It was just, yeah, I felt like I did themoment justice and I told, I told a really
beautiful story, and I got really lucky.
Mica (14:27):
What are some things that people have told you about that shot?
How did people react to it?
Because I know how I reacted toit and what I felt in that moment.
Penny (14:34):
What did you feel?
Mica (14:35):
I felt.
Like I was looking in on a veryintimate, very private moment.
I almost felt like I was afly on the wall, and this
was something very personal.
It's very beautiful.
I just wanted to knoweverything about those men.
I wanna know what they're eating,I wanna know what they're doing.
(14:58):
I wanna know what they'regonna do the next day.
I just wanted to know them.
So that's, that's a long-winded.
Penny (15:07):
That's powerful.
Well, thank you for sharing that.
Mica (15:09):
Thank you for asking.
I appreciate that so, so much.
You mentioned that you've traveledto over 30 countries, but I feel like
it's been more by now at this point.
How many countries intotal have you been to?
Penny (15:24):
Gosh, I don't know.
I don't know.
It's, it's definitely morethan 30 now, for sure.
But then neither, there's alot of repeats too, but it's
definitely an incredible privilege.
Yeah, I feel really lucky, but youknow, it's also slowed down quite a bit.
But hopefully we'll pick back up.
Mica (15:38):
What's the biggest thing you've learned about yourself
from your travels, and how has itinfluenced your food photography?
Penny (15:45):
What's the biggest thing I've learned about myself through my travels?
Gosh, that's a deep question, huh?
It's continually learning, right?
What's the biggest thing?
Just how small I am.
It's a big world right?
There's so many different ways to live.
It's helped me just be moreself-reflective and it's hard not to
(16:06):
think about your own life when you're insomebody else's culture and world, right?
Travel is, I think oneof the greatest teachers.
You find a little bit moreabout yourself when you travel.
Mica (16:15):
That's really true.
Penny (16:18):
And it changes you, right.
Mica (16:20):
You're more vulnerable in, in another, because in the US we're
just so used to being in our ownskin, comfortable, I'm an American,
I'm this, I'm this, and everybodyhere loves being an American.
But then you go to another country andit's like, wow, I'm a visitor here.
I want to respect everything here.
(16:40):
What's been your favorite country so far?
Penny (16:42):
Oh, man.
For me travel is about being in placeswhere no one is, you know, like I, I'm
not necessarily gonna go see the site.
That's definitely not how I travel.
I'm more of a let's get an apartmentin one of the neighborhoods and let's
live there for a while and let's gohave a coffee every morning at this
(17:04):
cafe and let's pretend for a whilethat we live here and let's live here.
You know?
I like who I meet, my favorite places aremy favorite kind of memories, and I've
met so many incredible peoples people.
Gosh, what my, my favorite, I mean,
Mica (17:19):
Such a big question
Penny (17:20):
It's a huge question.
There's so many.
Mica (17:22):
How about this, what's one of your favorites?
Maybe not the most favorite,but one of your favorites?
Penny (17:29):
One of my favorites, um, ah, there's this island in Greece.
It's called Kea, K-E-A.
And you can get there, you can flydirectly into Athens, and there's a ferry.
Very close to the airport.
Maybe, I think it's maybe a 20minute, maybe 15 minute cab ride.
You can get on that ferryand you can go to Kea.
The locals in Pea describe Kea as like theHamptons of, you know, New York, right?
(17:56):
So it's this island where all thelocals go to to get away from the city.
I went there on an assignment,and it was a photo shoot.
To this Greek cooking schoolon this island of Kea, right?
I fly into Athens, blurry eyed,tired camera gear in one arm and
rolling a, a suitcase in the other.
(18:17):
Get in a cab.
Go to this terminal, ferryterminal, get on a ferry.
I think you're maybean hour on this ferry.
People are on the ferry having lunch.
People pack a snack.
There's a little cafe, there's alittle bar and a place where you can
buy snacks or something to eat andpeople are like, holding up, we're on
the ocean going to this tiny island.
(18:39):
We get to the islandand it's just like, wow.
There's over 200 beacheson this little island.
It's so special and so beautiful andquiet and remote, and it's only locals.
You're not gonna run into a lotof other tourists, so to speak.
It was just magical and special andthe, the sky at night was so clear.
(18:59):
And, you know, locals cookall their meals there.
In Greece they have local cheesesand local wines, things that you
can't get imported to the US.
So you're really experiencingsomething very unique and very
special, and it's incredible.
I would go to this cooking schoolif you wanted to gift yourself
something really beautiful.
I would go to this cooking schoolon this island and for like a week.
(19:22):
And the people that own the cooking,it's just, it's a husband and wife,
and they're the most generous,kind, sincere, fun-loving people.
Mica (19:32):
You did an interview with a Adorama Adorama.
One thing that you said that stoodout to me , you said that food
photography is all about the place,about the moment and about the people.
For food photographers who workprimarily in a studio setting, finding
(19:52):
moments can be a challenge, right?
So how can food photographers workingin a studio setting capture the culture,
the dish, and the people behind it.
Penny (20:03):
I think a moment can be created in many ways.
The way in which youchoose to light something.
I think storytelling in a stilllife image is very much a moment.
How you compose it, how you lightit, the elements you choose to
focus on, your angle, all ofthat helps create a moment, right?
All of those are decisions you make upuntil the point you hit the shutter.
(20:25):
So yes, all of those decisionshelp you make a moment.
And then some work is like prescribed,like, Hey, we need this shot of this dish.
But, I've never limited, even on in astill shoot, depending the circumstances,
but I've always been more interested inthe dish before it ever hits the table.
It's the people cooking in and howthey make it, how they stir the pot,
(20:47):
the smoke, the fumes, the the steam,whatever comes up from the pot.
I mean, all those are actual moments too.
You can bring that to the setand recreate those moments.
It's just a matter of like reallythinking and spending some time
and contemplating like, when is thepeak moment to really capture this?
Mica (21:06):
So I have a moment and I'm curious to, to hear about how
you would approach this moment.
My mom is a fantastic cook andshe has her own version of Caldo.
My best memory is watching her make thissoup cuz it was a all day affair for her.
And just the whole house smelling amazing.
She didn't have anything that superfancy, just a big pot and some,
(21:31):
some rusted knives and some, somehands to make the food with.
So if you were in that moment,where you met my mom and she was
cooking, what are some thingsthat you look for in that moment?
Penny (21:42):
Oh, this is a great question.
I would show up an hour before yourmom, well, maybe not an hour, 30
minutes before she starts cooking.
I wanna see her putting the apron on.
I wanna see her, maybe she's wipingdown the counters, maybe she's
having a coffee on the patio.
I don't know, you know, but Iwanna be there before she starts.
Cuz you wanna meet people properly,everybody wants to show you their house.
People always wanna offer you somethingto drink, so that's a good 30 minutes.
(22:05):
Right.
And then also I want her tofeel super comfortable with me.
If she'll let me come earlier sothat maybe she and I can hang out a
little bit, she can get to know me andunderstand that I'm coming from a very
sincere, honest place, and I wanna makeher feel comfortable, and I just wanna
watch her and make pictures of it.
Once she kinda gets that,then I think she'll loosen up.
(22:29):
She'll be more calm.
Maybe we'll do a shot of tequila.
I would sip it.
I wouldn't like down it, cuz I don't wanther to think I'm like, they're at a party
necessarily, if that makes any sense.
I don't wanna be exclusionary,I wanna be included, but I want
to sink into the background, soI wanna fit in, I wanna be easy.
I don't have to have anything,but if she's inviting me.
Sure.
Yeah, absolutely.
(22:49):
I'm gonna also indulge the subject.
Because I care about them andI need to let them in too.
So yeah, your mom'soffering me for a coffee.
I'm like, yeah, let's have a coffee.
We're talking, and then she'sgonna get all her ingredients out.
I'm shooting pictures ofher doing the ingredients.
I'm warming her up.
I'm getting her used to the fact that.
The camera's gonna be around her.
Are these the pictures that aregonna like be the money shot?
(23:11):
No, but I'm shooting it becauseI'm also stretching my eye.
I'm letting her know this ishow I'm gonna move around her.
I'm checking my light.
I'm checking exposure.
I'm thinking about like where abeautiful image might come from.
Like maybe there's lightstreaming in from the window.
I'm thinking about what could I put there.
Is that where I wannashoot the final plate?
Maybe she sits there.
(23:32):
Is it a portrait at some point?
So I'm just, I'm thinking a lot.
I'm letting her get into her world.
I'm helping her understand how I work.
All of this is like not necessarilyspoken, it's just learned
behavior as she sees me working.
And I'm most importantly just helpingher know that I'm not a threat
and I'm there to celebrate her.
I'm like excited and pumped.
(23:53):
I'm a hype person.
We're just on a journey together.
Mica (23:56):
Do you feel the moment when they trust you and they really
get comfortable around you?
How do you know when that moment happens?
Penny (24:04):
I know when that moment happens, when they don't move
or flinch when I'm moving aroundthem and they just do their thing.
Sometimes people will see meget in a certain place and then
they'll adjust, and I'm like,no, no, you just do your thing.
Ignore me, a hundred percent.
You're never in the way.
What you're doing is what I wanna see.
You're the most importantperson in the room.
You don't worry about me.
(24:25):
I'm worrying about you.
Mica (24:25):
It's like they're the sun and you're the planet orbiting around them.
Penny (24:29):
Oh, that's a great analogy.
Yeah, exactly.
It's also not, wow, whatan incredible privilege.
This is not high stakes.
We're having a great time.
No one should be stressed.
Everybody should be feeling really lucky.
Especially me.
So I'm going to be as chill as I can be.
Mica (24:46):
You wanna be a part of that moment and it's just such
a great moment to be a part of.
I like what you say about justremembering the gratitude.
And my mom would definitelytake a tequila shot with you.
I can tell.
We probably shouldn't let her take atequila shot cuz then she'll do all
the gritos and we will never get her.
Penny (25:02):
Oh, that, that even best.
That's the photo.
That's the photo.
That is the photo.
Mica (25:08):
We took my mom for her birthday and she turned 65 and we took her to
Casa Chapala in, Northwest Austin.
She likes that place because theymake the salsa from scratch, but
they also make it hot enough.
My mom has like a steel of a stomach.
If she says it's nothot, don't believe her.
It's a lie.
Turn away.
She loves Mariachis.
And we had a mariachi come and sing hera song and I recorded a video of her and
(25:31):
she's wearing like this giant sombrerohat and she's just living her best life.
It was really cool to celebrate her.
I feel like that videosummarizes my mom's personality.
You grew up in South Texas, correct.
You're from Germany and thenyou grew up in South Texas?
Penny (25:46):
Both of my parents are from South Texas.
Long time South Texas.
I come from a Mexican Americanfamily, but I didn't grow up.
I grew up going there, butmostly in central Texas.
My father was in the military.
Mica (25:58):
Growing up in the military that meant you had to be in
new environments frequently andlearn how to talk to people.
Penny (26:07):
Yeah.
I've always been interestedin everybody else.
That's why I picked up the camera.
I, I felt like it was a, pardonthe pun, but it was like a
passport into people's lives.
Mica (26:16):
You mentioned that there came a point in your career where you
realized that if the kind of shootsthat you wanna do, the kind of clients
you want to book, you're not gonnafind them here in Texas and that
you have to go where, where it is.
You said that you exploded your life.
Looking back on that decisionto explode your life.
(26:37):
How do you feel about that choice now?
Penny (26:40):
Oh, I mean, that was the one of the best decisions I've ever made.
I grew as a creative person.
Than, more than anything.
New York, there isa, how should I put this?
There is a work ethic herethat, I mean, people hustle.
People come here to work.
Full stop.
People come here to learn, togrow, to get their experience.
(27:02):
To become something.
A lot of people come hereto prove themselves.
So if you give them an opportunity,they're gonna show up and they're
gonna show up early and theymight not even wanna be paid.
I pay people, just so you know,but what I'm saying is, is people
are wanting the experience here.
And not every city inthe world is like that.
A lot of cities, mostcities aren't like that.
(27:23):
I felt like I was having a hardtime finding collaborators in Texas.
I had a hard time finding stylists, propstylists, food stylists that I felt like
specialized primarily in still tabletop.
I do shoots in Texas now andthere are stylists there for sure.
I just felt like what the opportunitiesI would have in New York, this is
(27:46):
the publishing capital of the world.
There is a photographer on every corner.
It's very competitive.
People here are hustling.
They're working.
They are putting everything theyhave on the line to make it.
It's expensive to live here.
You can't rest.
You gotta work, you gotta pound thepavement and say something and say it as
(28:06):
loud as you can, or you won't make it.
I love being here for that reason.
And it's made me the photographerI am today for that reason.
If you're seeing me branch out or dosomething different, it's because I'm
growing, I'm learning, I'm pushing myself,and that's honestly what you have to do.
If you want to be a competitivephotographer in this marketplace, you have
to be willing to be open and still hustle.
(28:27):
Every day's a hustle.
I've never rested on my laurels, ever.
Not that, I can't.
I gotta pay the rent.
I still have to take care ofmyself and, it is what it is.
I choose to live here.
And that's part of the choice you make.
Mica (28:42):
So you've exploded your life.
What did that look like?
What does exploding your life look like?
Penny (28:50):
I had a house in Austin.
I sold a bunch of things.
I packed everything up.
I got in a U-Haul and Idrove across the country.
I rented my first apartmentin the West Village.
It was like a studio apartment.
It was crazy expensive.
I had work immediately the minute I gothere, and I've always worked for myself.
Like any photographer, youhave good months and bad months.
(29:11):
It's, it's always like that.
Mica (29:13):
What advice would you give to any food photographers who are
thinking about exploding theirlife and moving to another city?
Penny (29:20):
That's an interesting question.
I don't think you needto live in New York.
I think you moved to New Yorkbecause you wanna live in this city.
I know other photographers whohave really been so successful.
I do think Texas, interms of work has changed.
I think there is more work.
I think a lot of work gets shotin Texas also, so it's changed
(29:41):
and it's only gonna change more.
So I don't, I don't feel like photographyhas really changed in the last two years.
And it's only gonna continue to change.
Right.
I don't think you haveto be in New York now.
I really don't.
I choose to live here because thecreative energy and the work ethic
and sense of like competitivenessthat does keep me going too.
(30:03):
Maybe I kind of hate it though,but that's another conversation.
It pushes me.
I'm pushed here, and I definitely canfind collaborators and I appreciate that.
But I guess what I'm trying to say is Idon't think you need to live in New York.
I think it's just, it's,the game has changed.
So much.
Mica (30:19):
What do you think makes a good food photograph and how do
you know when you've captured that?
Penny (30:26):
I think composition, light, color, subject matter, all those
contribute to like a, a good photograph.
But I think just the telltale sign is ifyou feel something when you look at it.
And I do think when you look ata food photograph, if it doesn't
make you hungry or want to eat it,then it's, it's not working right.
Maybe it's not an appetizing foodphotograph, but you should feel something.
(30:47):
An image should evoke an emotion.
Mica (30:50):
Have you ever had those moments where you looked at your
photo and you didn't feel anything?
What did you do in that moment?
Penny (30:58):
All the time.
All the time.
And sometimes you don't always getto make the photo you wanna make.
You get a creative brief from an agencyor a client and they have a very specific
thing in mind that they want to capture.
Then it becomes you're workingfor someone, you're working with
someone, you're creating their idea.
What they want is way moreimportant than that when you want.
(31:20):
You can bring your expertise.
You can contribute your thoughts, andyou can influence it as much as you want.
But oftentimes you, you get thesebriefs and they're very specific about
that, what they want and do I alwaysfeel like, oh my God, I nailed it.
This is incredible.
No, but that's not whatthey were looking for.
Mica (31:37):
One of my former professors, Frank Curry, said in classes, that with client
work, you have to deliver every time.
There's no room for error.
When you do your portfolio work, that'sthe time to explore, get creative, and
make whatever mistakes you wanna make.
Do you ever do like portfolio work?
Where it's just for you?
Work just for you?
Penny (31:58):
You mean where I'm not getting paid?
Someone's not paying me to do.
Mica (32:02):
Yeah, I call portfolio work.
Penny (32:04):
Yeah.
I call it a test shoot.
Yeah, absolutely.
All the time.
I'd probably do that more.
I'm doing it at least once a month.
Right.
At least.
It's harder to do that.
Right now where I'm at with my workas I'm really interested in, I wanna
shoot more lifestyle, I wanna shootmore people in, in their space.
Getting a little more back tostorytelling, but also bringing, a little
(32:25):
bit of a controlled environment to it.
I wanna photograph,photograph more people.
I liked seeing people.
I like hearing stories.
I like connecting.
I wanna contemplate a littlebit more what they're gonna
wear, the environment we're gonnashoot in, how I might light it.
It's not like going to Sicily anddriving around for two weeks in a
car rental and just finding peoplewho let you into their house.
Mica (32:47):
If a photographer came to your house and photographed your home,
what feeling would you want themto have upon entering your home?
Penny (32:55):
I would want them to be inspired.
I would want them to feel reallygrounded, inspired and, open.
And really good, filled with likea very positive, warm feeling.
I want people to feel like that when I'mphotographing it that, but if they walk
into my home, I hope they feel that too.
Yeah.
Mica (33:13):
It reminds me of, of what you were talking about in the TED Talk where
you said, about the men who like wassharing the meal that this was one of
the only ways that they remembered home.
Penny (33:26):
They were cooking family recipes and that's how they remember home.
And that's how we allremember home, right?
I can make my mom's arroz conpollo or calabaza con pollo..
And I know in that moment when I smell,the squash and the chicken and the rice
kind of all cooking together, then Ican see my mom in the kitchen again.
(33:46):
I could feel that feeling for a minute.
It's beautiful.
Mica (33:50):
I love that.
I love that.
You did a, a workshop back inJanuary, which I wanted to go to,
I really wanted to go to that.
Do you have any upcoming projectsthat, that you're excited
about to explore in the future?
Penny (34:04):
I do.
I'm up for a really great bookproject that I'm super excited about.
I mean, that would betraveling to multiple countries
photographing food culture.
Hopefully it works out.
Let's everybody cross their fingers.
But you know what I realized, though, it'slike it is the dream assignment, right?
But I realized why I shouldjust be doing this for myself.
I should just be doing that for myself.
(34:25):
It hearkens back to that very firstquestion you asked me in the very
beginning of this interview aboutthat caption I wrote on January, 2020,
And it was just this moment where Irealized I really love photographing
people and culture around food.
I mean, that's just what broughtme into food photography.
I wanna get back to storytelling.
(34:46):
Not that I don't love thestudio, but after being
inside for the last few years.
I just, I crave connection and gathering.
So I wanna get back to that.
That's my own goal.
That's why this project that's coming up,if I am awarded it, it would be amazing.
But also, even if I don't, it's okay.
You know?
Like I, I think I need to get backto doing that work for myself.
(35:09):
I need to do that for me.
I need to go to like threedifferent countries the rest
of the year and photograph.
That's why you have miles, right?
Mica (35:16):
Well I'm putting that, that positive energy out there.
I want you to get this assignment, thisbook assignment, and make it happen,
cuz I know it's gonna turn out magical.
I wanna ask you aboutthe about the workshops.
So what, what prompts the work workshops?
What do you enjoy about them?
Penny (35:34):
I'm not sure.
I do enjoy them if I'm really honest withyou, and that's why I don't do 'em a lot.
First of all, it's a lot ofwork and I don't mind working.
I will definitely work hard, but I'mnot sure it's how I want to be working.
And if I'm really honest, sometimesI need to make money, you know,
and it's been a weird few years.
Publishing is wow.
(35:54):
I mean, diminished.
I lost two or three big publishingclients in the last few years because
those publications are no longer printing.
If they're publishing it's online andtheir budgets are, it's not there.
Yeah.
It's just, it's not there.
Yeah.
So it is what it is.
Right.
I do the workshops to supplement.
(36:15):
Right.
I have to be in business.
I'm in business whether I like it or not.
So it's an opportunity to make some money.
To kind of cushion myself a littlebit through the winter months.
And I do enjoy meetingthe people that sign up.
Oftentimes, there are people that havefollowed me for a long time and I have
repeat customers, which is really cool.
And I always have a great party.
Like we had this amazing party after wewrap this workshop, and I, people didn't
(36:38):
leave till like one in the morning.
What?
Yes, yes.
True story.
After being on set fromlike eight in the morning.
Mica (36:48):
I watched your Creative Live course and like all the students were sitting
there watching and then you did , thephoto shoot at the end and I'm like,
I wanna knock one of those people offthose chairs so I can take their spot.
I understand where you're comingfrom, but I do hope that you do more
workshops, because I wanna go to one.
I wanna go to one.
Penny (37:09):
I have a question for you then.
So, I was thinking about doing theworkshops like online and maybe, I have
a friend that's a poet actually in Austin.
She does a poetry workshop, andthey meet once a week for
like three hours on Sunday.
And I thought, well, maybe that couldbe a cool way to meet, do the workshop,
over like five week or six week period.
It's more intimate, you know?
(37:29):
But I could give you assignments, wecould look at work, would be a little bit
more, probably have a growing experience.
Mica (37:36):
I would totally be down for that.
And I know at least 20other food photographers who
would be so down for that.
Absolutely.
I would totally be downfor something like that.
And I know that people who are listenedto this show would be down for that too.
And you might even get some foodstylists who are definitely eager
to learn about how to be a bettercollaborator with a food photographer.
(37:59):
So whatever, whatever you'reputting out there, I will move
mountains to be a part of it.
Penny (38:05):
Oh my gosh, that's so sweet of you.
Thank you for the encouragement.
I really appreciate it.
I think I might do it.
I, I, oh, I dunno.
I think, and maybe it'sa better format for me.
Mica (38:14):
It's all a personal decision.
So if you choose not to,that's totally up to you.
But if you do, I'm gonna come a run in.
If you do,
Penny (38:22):
Maybe I'll do one round.
I'll let you know.
Okay?
Mica (38:26):
Okay.
Okay.
All right.
So I have one last question foryou and before I ask it, I really
just want to say thank you so much.
I've learned so much from thisconversation, but I want to
know what you hope the listenerslearn from today's episode.
Penny (38:43):
Hmm.
That's a great question.
Well, first of all,thank you for having me.
I'm so glad we connected.
I'm so glad we talked.
I'm really, really glad that I met youand, I'm always here if you ever wanna
talk about your own work or anything.
I might not get back to you rightaway, but I will get back to you.
I hope that your listenersrealize that there's more than
one way to pursue their passion.
(39:06):
I hope that they realize, that if you'renot having fun and you're not enjoying
it, maybe it's not the right thing.
Photography is a, it's work every day.
It's also a business.
So, be smart about it, be wise.
But don't be intimidated.
Don't be afraid to try it.
Mica (39:23):
Don't be afraid to try it.
It's an everyday work.
Penny (39:26):
It's an exercise every day, right.
It's a relationship andit's a lifestyle too.
And it changes for everybody.
Like any relationship, somedays will be better than others.
Some weeks you'll be in love.
Other weeks you'll just bekind of coasting, you know?
Mica (39:41):
I like what you said, that it's a relationship.
Thank you so much for being a gueston this itty bitty podcast of mine.
Penny (39:48):
Congratulations.
You're crushing it.
Mica (39:51):
Thank you.
Penny (39:51):
You're doing a great job.
I wouldn't be here if I didn'tfeel like you were, you were
adding to this space, so thank you.
Welcome to the 27th episode of The Savory Shot.
What.
Y'all already know who I be, but ifthis is your first time joining this,
partaaay, allow me to introduce myself.
My name is Mica and I'myour host with the most.
(00:21):
Y'all, before I start this epic episode,I've gotta give thanks first to y'all,
the listeners, cuz boo things, y'allare the reason why this show exists.
So thank you for being here.
You could have been anywhere doinganything, but you're here with me
(00:42):
and I couldn't be more grateful.
Last episode, I celebrated theSavory Shots one year anniversary.
Hey, and y'all, I feel like I couldashould have done more to celebrate
this big moment, but indeed didI celebrate in the last episode.
So check out that episode if you wannahear what I've learned as a podcast host.
(01:07):
But y'all, y'all.
I've got to talk about today'sepisode cuz it's a doozy, and I am
so excited about this interview.
Today I'm beyond thrilled tointroduce our amazing guest, the
incredible Penny de Los Santos.
(01:28):
Penny is an extraordinaryphotographer and storyteller.
Her photos are poetic, deep,intimate, and awe inspiring.
Seriously, you've beenliving under a rock.
If you don't know whoPenny de Los Santos is.
I've been a fan of Penny'sfor years, y'all since the
(01:49):
beginning of my photography days.
Having her on the showis an absolute honor.
Y'all, we talked about so,so, so much in this episode.
I couldn't figure out what to take out.
We talked about her experiencestraveling to over 30 countries, y'all,
(02:10):
and how those journeys shaped herperspective as a food photographer.
We talked about her decision to explodeher life and move to New York, y'all.
Y'all.
We haven't gotten to the meat andpotatoes of what makes a good photo great.
But before we get intothat, let's start the show.
(03:07):
Penny, I just wanna start offby saying this is the biggest
fangirl moment of my foodie life.
If my professor were here and he couldhear this conversation, he'd be like,
Mica's like freaking out right now.
Because I talk about your work so much, sooften, and so this is a huge, huge, huge,
(03:29):
huge honor to have you here on this show.
So Thank you for being here.
Penny (03:34):
Wow, that is so sweet.
That's kind.
And I don't, I mean, that's just, wow.
Thank you.
That's beautiful to hear.
And I really appreciate that.
I'm out here strugglingtoo, you know, so thank you.
I fully accept that and take it in andI'm just like, wow, you made my day.
So thank you very much.
Mica (03:52):
You've made my year, my millennium.
I am gonna like live thisfor the rest of my life.
And I love that you're from Texas.
What.
Penny (04:01):
When I got your email, I was like, heck yo, let's do this.
I mean, especially cuz you're from Texas.
I love Texas.
Texas is going throughsomething right now.
It's, it's an intense time.
But Texas will always be home, eventhough, damn, I love living in, I mean,
I feel like this is the right city forme to be living in right now, you know?
Mica (04:20):
New York is banging.
But if it's okay with you, Iwanna dive right in because I have
some, some questions to ask you.
Penny (04:29):
I'm ready.
I'm ready.
Mica (04:31):
The first thing I wanna ask is, well, first I think I told you about
how I got introduced to your work.
It was in my photojournalism class.
Our professor was like sharing differentworks of different photojournalists.
He would present the picture and then hewould let us sit in silences for a minute.
He's like, just absorb it.
Just drink it in, and thenlet's talk about this.
(04:52):
And your work was one of the onesthat, um, the, the, the, the shot
where it's the table and it's theflat lay and it's lit by candlelight.
That's how it was introduced to your work.
And I was just blown away by everything.
Penny (05:06):
Wow.
That's so cool.
Mica (05:07):
So the first thing I wanna dive into is your Instagram.
One of your captions from January 8th,2020, you said, this year I'm committed
to doing more work that expresses who Iam as a storyteller at the heart of it.
For me, storytelling has always beenthe crossroad where food and culture
(05:27):
meet, especially around everyday life.
So my question is, what was happeningin your life when you wrote that?
Penny (05:34):
January, 2020?
Mica (05:36):
January 8th, 2020.
Penny (05:38):
Okay.
I know exactly where I was.
January, 2020 monthsbefore everything changed.
I was in southern Italy.
My first ever likeinternational exhibition.
A series of 60, images from aroundthe world about food culture and
how people connect around food.
(05:58):
I was traveling around Italyfor I think six cities, and it
was all, this is the cool part.
All of the exhibitions were inUNESCO World Heritage Sites.
So they have like historical meaning,so put images, related to food culture
in this like historical setting, it juststarts to mean something else, right?
(06:21):
So anyway, I was in Umbria and it wasprobably around the time of my opening of
this exhibition and it opened in Umbria.
I was teaching a photoworkshop at the same time.
I was feeling extremely proud of myselfthat I found something I cared about and
that I pursued it and deciding to reallydive into food because, you know, I was
(06:46):
a storyteller mostly telling storiesaround culture and place and identity.
I trained with National Geographicfor the first 10 years of my career.
And it was incredible.
And it was the dream.
That was the dream for me.
I wanted to work at National Geographic.
But it was the most intensething, emotionally for me, it
was not healthy emotionally.
(07:08):
It was very toxic.
And I inhale deeply because thattime was important in my life to
be at National Geographic and tolearn from my peers, from people
who were mentors, from editors, itwas an incredible opportunity,
but it was also really intense.
You know, I didn't anticipate howmuch I would feel like an outsider
(07:28):
and photographers are emotionalpeople, whether we admit it or not.
We're sensitive, we're emotional.
Maybe not everybody, but if you'retelling storytelling images, if
you're really trying to evoke emotion,you're an emotional person, you know?
I'm getting a little sidetracked here,but I guess what I'm trying to say is but
I guess what I'm trying to say is I wasdriven to telling stories about people
(07:50):
and I just didn't feel happy at that placethat I always thought I wanted to be at.
It was a dream.
And I worked really hard to get tothat point, you know, really hard.
Like I, when I think about the man,the hours I put into my career to get
to that point, it's crazy, you know?
I just was so unhappy.
I got my first food assignment.
That's another story, butit was this person who had a
(08:13):
career at National Geographic.
He was an editor, hewas now a food editor.
Visual editor at a magazine.
And this magazine was Saveur andthey really focused on food and
place, you know, those two combined.
So it was really an opportunity to storytell, but around a subject I didn't know.
And it, the first assignmenthe gave me was to.
(08:35):
Chile and to Peru, and it waslike a two-part assignment.
I was traveling with the same writerand she was like this, she had a PhD
in, medieval history and she was arestaurateur and she was a chef, and
she was, Cuban living in Cuban American.
Right.
Living in, in New Jersey.
(08:57):
I fly to Santiago, Chile, I meet her.
And as we're walking through themarket, you know, she's just telling
me about all these ingredients andhow they all came, like through this
continent and who brought them andhow it's used, by local people.
And then when we went to Peru togetherin that same assignment, same thing
(09:18):
when we were in Peru, she was tellingme like different ingredients.
And I just had this moment whereI was like, wow, this, this is.
This is beautiful.
You know, this is like storytellingand it's also, connection, and
it's intimacy, in photography andfood is super intimate and watching
people cook is like really intimate.
And I love cooking.
(09:38):
I think I'm a pretty good cook andI've always loved watching people cook.
I grew up watching cookingshows like, devoutly and I almost
considered going to culinary school.
I loved it that much and I onlywanted to go to culinary school.
So I would understand liketechnique and I could maybe
just have just the perspective.
I didn't wanna become a chef oranything, but it was more like maybe
it would give me license to be.
(10:01):
Even more immersed in that potentially.
So the notion of marrying those twopassions with photography was like, yes.
Mica (10:11):
I could see wanting to go to culinary school, to really
understand the why behind why theydo this and this and this and this.
I don't see how anyone cannot beobsessed with watching chefs cook.
Do you think that would have changedthe way you photographed food
had you gone to culinary school?
Penny (10:30):
Yeah, for sure.
And and I, I just also want to addit, it wasn't necessarily chefs for
me, it was just cooking, you know?
And in fact, to be really honestwith you, I prefer home cooks.
I like grandmas.
The lights way better.
You know what I mean?
It's just you're walking into a lotmore character and not that chefs
aren't interesting, but I think homecooks and home cooking and how people
(10:51):
gather is way more interesting.
When I think about it,it's like, wow, wow, wow.
I wish I could just do that.
I wish I could just get on a plane,travel to another country, photograph a
handful of six or seven people in theirhomes, cooking, gathering, photographing
it, come back and just publish it myself.
That would be like, and that's, Iguess maybe that's the goal, but,
you know, I also gotta make a livingtoo, so, nobody ever talks about
(11:13):
that part of photography, right?
You gotta make a living.
But I love cooking for people.
I love entertaining.
I love hosting.
I love hosting.
Mica (11:22):
You love hosting.
Okay, what about hostingthat you love about it?
Penny (11:27):
I love gathering people that I love and people that maybe I don't know so
well and putting 'em all in the same roomand just seeing how everybody gets along.
I love showing people like new foodsand like cooking for people, having
them enjoy the food, and most of myentertaining is like, people come over,
they're standing up, they're sitting down.
It's not like a seated dinner.
It's like a hang with somefood in the center of this big,
(11:50):
like long table that I have.
And you're mingling the nexttime you come to New York?
I'll host something andthen you'll have to come.
Mica (11:57):
Oh, I will definitely come because my last experience
with New York was not a fun one.
We traveled to Boston for my husband'sbest friend's wedding, and we got
caught in a really bad snowstorm andour flight to Austin was canceled.
Our rescheduled flighthad a layover in New York.
(12:17):
And then we were supposed to flyback to Austin from New York.
While we were on the planefrom Boston to New York, our
flight to Austin was canceled.
And we found out after we landed.
Thankfully, I had a friend wholived in Brooklyn and he and his
girlfriend let us stay there.
We had two extra days in New York, but Ididn't have the right footwear and I was
(12:41):
sick, so we couldn't really do anything.
When we left, I'm like, okay, wehave to give New York another chance.
So I definitely will take you upon that when we go to New York.
I wanna take it to that Ted talkthat you gave, where you talked about
how you were thinking about on theplane, about capturing the perfect
shot and being very careful aboutfollowing the men because they're,
(13:03):
they're very lives could be in danger.
Then with the power going outand them pulling out the candles,
and then you were like, ha.
This is the perfect moment.
This is the shot.
I've gotta get this shot.
Take me back to that moment when you sawthat photo later, like on a bigger screen.
What emotions did it invoke in you?
Penny (13:25):
Well, I remember the moment exactly.
We had left the subject's apartment,and took a taxi back to the hotel.
No, to the ri I was stayingat the writer's apartment.
Which isn't normal, but you know,this was a different assignment.
I remember, I had kind of set up a littleoffice space for myself and I loaded up
the images to my laptop and I rememberseeing that image and just, just being
(13:48):
so excited about it that I quicklyprocessed it, toned it a little bit, not
much, and then I sent it to the editor ofthe magazine and also the photo editor.
In the morning when I woke up, Ithink I wrote something in the
email about how, it was incredible.
And this, this shotis, this is what I got.
I'm so hap you know, I, I, I don'tknow what I said exactly, but
(14:09):
when I woke up in the morning,they'd already mocked it up.
They dropped it into a layoutand put a headline and I saw that
and I was just like, oh my God.
It was just, yeah, I felt like I did themoment justice and I told, I told a really
beautiful story, and I got really lucky.
Mica (14:27):
What are some things that people have told you about that shot?
How did people react to it?
Because I know how I reacted toit and what I felt in that moment.
Penny (14:34):
What did you feel?
Mica (14:35):
I felt.
Like I was looking in on a veryintimate, very private moment.
I almost felt like I was afly on the wall, and this
was something very personal.
It's very beautiful.
I just wanted to knoweverything about those men.
I wanna know what they're eating,I wanna know what they're doing.
(14:58):
I wanna know what they'regonna do the next day.
I just wanted to know them.
So that's, that's a long-winded.
Penny (15:07):
That's powerful.
Well, thank you for sharing that.
Mica (15:09):
Thank you for asking.
I appreciate that so, so much.
You mentioned that you've traveledto over 30 countries, but I feel like
it's been more by now at this point.
How many countries intotal have you been to?
Penny (15:24):
Gosh, I don't know.
I don't know.
It's, it's definitely morethan 30 now, for sure.
But then neither, there's alot of repeats too, but it's
definitely an incredible privilege.
Yeah, I feel really lucky, but youknow, it's also slowed down quite a bit.
But hopefully we'll pick back up.
Mica (15:38):
What's the biggest thing you've learned about yourself
from your travels, and how has itinfluenced your food photography?
Penny (15:45):
What's the biggest thing I've learned about myself through my travels?
Gosh, that's a deep question, huh?
It's continually learning, right?
What's the biggest thing?
Just how small I am.
It's a big world right?
There's so many different ways to live.
It's helped me just be moreself-reflective and it's hard not to
(16:06):
think about your own life when you're insomebody else's culture and world, right?
Travel is, I think oneof the greatest teachers.
You find a little bit moreabout yourself when you travel.
Mica (16:15):
That's really true.
Penny (16:18):
And it changes you, right.
Mica (16:20):
You're more vulnerable in, in another, because in the US we're
just so used to being in our ownskin, comfortable, I'm an American,
I'm this, I'm this, and everybodyhere loves being an American.
But then you go to another country andit's like, wow, I'm a visitor here.
I want to respect everything here.
(16:40):
What's been your favorite country so far?
Penny (16:42):
Oh, man.
For me travel is about being in placeswhere no one is, you know, like I, I'm
not necessarily gonna go see the site.
That's definitely not how I travel.
I'm more of a let's get an apartmentin one of the neighborhoods and let's
live there for a while and let's gohave a coffee every morning at this
(17:04):
cafe and let's pretend for a whilethat we live here and let's live here.
You know?
I like who I meet, my favorite places aremy favorite kind of memories, and I've
met so many incredible peoples people.
Gosh, what my, my favorite, I mean,
Mica (17:19):
Such a big question
Penny (17:20):
It's a huge question.
There's so many.
Mica (17:22):
How about this, what's one of your favorites?
Maybe not the most favorite,but one of your favorites?
Penny (17:29):
One of my favorites, um, ah, there's this island in Greece.
It's called Kea, K-E-A.
And you can get there, you can flydirectly into Athens, and there's a ferry.
Very close to the airport.
Maybe, I think it's maybe a 20minute, maybe 15 minute cab ride.
You can get on that ferryand you can go to Kea.
The locals in Pea describe Kea as like theHamptons of, you know, New York, right?
(17:56):
So it's this island where all thelocals go to to get away from the city.
I went there on an assignment,and it was a photo shoot.
To this Greek cooking schoolon this island of Kea, right?
I fly into Athens, blurry eyed,tired camera gear in one arm and
rolling a, a suitcase in the other.
(18:17):
Get in a cab.
Go to this terminal, ferryterminal, get on a ferry.
I think you're maybean hour on this ferry.
People are on the ferry having lunch.
People pack a snack.
There's a little cafe, there's alittle bar and a place where you can
buy snacks or something to eat andpeople are like, holding up, we're on
the ocean going to this tiny island.
(18:39):
We get to the islandand it's just like, wow.
There's over 200 beacheson this little island.
It's so special and so beautiful andquiet and remote, and it's only locals.
You're not gonna run into a lotof other tourists, so to speak.
It was just magical and special andthe, the sky at night was so clear.
(18:59):
And, you know, locals cookall their meals there.
In Greece they have local cheesesand local wines, things that you
can't get imported to the US.
So you're really experiencingsomething very unique and very
special, and it's incredible.
I would go to this cooking schoolif you wanted to gift yourself
something really beautiful.
I would go to this cooking schoolon this island and for like a week.
(19:22):
And the people that own the cooking,it's just, it's a husband and wife,
and they're the most generous,kind, sincere, fun-loving people.
Mica (19:32):
You did an interview with a Adorama Adorama.
One thing that you said that stoodout to me , you said that food
photography is all about the place,about the moment and about the people.
For food photographers who workprimarily in a studio setting, finding
(19:52):
moments can be a challenge, right?
So how can food photographers workingin a studio setting capture the culture,
the dish, and the people behind it.
Penny (20:03):
I think a moment can be created in many ways.
The way in which youchoose to light something.
I think storytelling in a stilllife image is very much a moment.
How you compose it, how you lightit, the elements you choose to
focus on, your angle, all ofthat helps create a moment, right?
All of those are decisions you make upuntil the point you hit the shutter.
(20:25):
So yes, all of those decisionshelp you make a moment.
And then some work is like prescribed,like, Hey, we need this shot of this dish.
But, I've never limited, even on in astill shoot, depending the circumstances,
but I've always been more interested inthe dish before it ever hits the table.
It's the people cooking in and howthey make it, how they stir the pot,
(20:47):
the smoke, the fumes, the the steam,whatever comes up from the pot.
I mean, all those are actual moments too.
You can bring that to the setand recreate those moments.
It's just a matter of like reallythinking and spending some time
and contemplating like, when is thepeak moment to really capture this?
Mica (21:06):
So I have a moment and I'm curious to, to hear about how
you would approach this moment.
My mom is a fantastic cook andshe has her own version of Caldo.
My best memory is watching her make thissoup cuz it was a all day affair for her.
And just the whole house smelling amazing.
She didn't have anything that superfancy, just a big pot and some,
(21:31):
some rusted knives and some, somehands to make the food with.
So if you were in that moment,where you met my mom and she was
cooking, what are some thingsthat you look for in that moment?
Penny (21:42):
Oh, this is a great question.
I would show up an hour before yourmom, well, maybe not an hour, 30
minutes before she starts cooking.
I wanna see her putting the apron on.
I wanna see her, maybe she's wipingdown the counters, maybe she's
having a coffee on the patio.
I don't know, you know, but Iwanna be there before she starts.
Cuz you wanna meet people properly,everybody wants to show you their house.
People always wanna offer you somethingto drink, so that's a good 30 minutes.
(22:05):
Right.
And then also I want her tofeel super comfortable with me.
If she'll let me come earlier sothat maybe she and I can hang out a
little bit, she can get to know me andunderstand that I'm coming from a very
sincere, honest place, and I wanna makeher feel comfortable, and I just wanna
watch her and make pictures of it.
Once she kinda gets that,then I think she'll loosen up.
(22:29):
She'll be more calm.
Maybe we'll do a shot of tequila.
I would sip it.
I wouldn't like down it, cuz I don't wanther to think I'm like, they're at a party
necessarily, if that makes any sense.
I don't wanna be exclusionary,I wanna be included, but I want
to sink into the background, soI wanna fit in, I wanna be easy.
I don't have to have anything,but if she's inviting me.
Sure.
Yeah, absolutely.
(22:49):
I'm gonna also indulge the subject.
Because I care about them andI need to let them in too.
So yeah, your mom'soffering me for a coffee.
I'm like, yeah, let's have a coffee.
We're talking, and then she'sgonna get all her ingredients out.
I'm shooting pictures ofher doing the ingredients.
I'm warming her up.
I'm getting her used to the fact that.
The camera's gonna be around her.
Are these the pictures that aregonna like be the money shot?
(23:11):
No, but I'm shooting it becauseI'm also stretching my eye.
I'm letting her know this ishow I'm gonna move around her.
I'm checking my light.
I'm checking exposure.
I'm thinking about like where abeautiful image might come from.
Like maybe there's lightstreaming in from the window.
I'm thinking about what could I put there.
Is that where I wannashoot the final plate?
Maybe she sits there.
(23:32):
Is it a portrait at some point?
So I'm just, I'm thinking a lot.
I'm letting her get into her world.
I'm helping her understand how I work.
All of this is like not necessarilyspoken, it's just learned
behavior as she sees me working.
And I'm most importantly just helpingher know that I'm not a threat
and I'm there to celebrate her.
I'm like excited and pumped.
(23:53):
I'm a hype person.
We're just on a journey together.
Mica (23:56):
Do you feel the moment when they trust you and they really
get comfortable around you?
How do you know when that moment happens?
Penny (24:04):
I know when that moment happens, when they don't move
or flinch when I'm moving aroundthem and they just do their thing.
Sometimes people will see meget in a certain place and then
they'll adjust, and I'm like,no, no, you just do your thing.
Ignore me, a hundred percent.
You're never in the way.
What you're doing is what I wanna see.
You're the most importantperson in the room.
You don't worry about me.
(24:25):
I'm worrying about you.
Mica (24:25):
It's like they're the sun and you're the planet orbiting around them.
Penny (24:29):
Oh, that's a great analogy.
Yeah, exactly.
It's also not, wow, whatan incredible privilege.
This is not high stakes.
We're having a great time.
No one should be stressed.
Everybody should be feeling really lucky.
Especially me.
So I'm going to be as chill as I can be.
Mica (24:46):
You wanna be a part of that moment and it's just such
a great moment to be a part of.
I like what you say about justremembering the gratitude.
And my mom would definitelytake a tequila shot with you.
I can tell.
We probably shouldn't let her take atequila shot cuz then she'll do all
the gritos and we will never get her.
Penny (25:02):
Oh, that, that even best.
That's the photo.
That's the photo.
That is the photo.
Mica (25:08):
We took my mom for her birthday and she turned 65 and we took her to
Casa Chapala in, Northwest Austin.
She likes that place because theymake the salsa from scratch, but
they also make it hot enough.
My mom has like a steel of a stomach.
If she says it's nothot, don't believe her.
It's a lie.
Turn away.
She loves Mariachis.
And we had a mariachi come and sing hera song and I recorded a video of her and
(25:31):
she's wearing like this giant sombrerohat and she's just living her best life.
It was really cool to celebrate her.
I feel like that videosummarizes my mom's personality.
You grew up in South Texas, correct.
You're from Germany and thenyou grew up in South Texas?
Penny (25:46):
Both of my parents are from South Texas.
Long time South Texas.
I come from a Mexican Americanfamily, but I didn't grow up.
I grew up going there, butmostly in central Texas.
My father was in the military.
Mica (25:58):
Growing up in the military that meant you had to be in
new environments frequently andlearn how to talk to people.
Penny (26:07):
Yeah.
I've always been interestedin everybody else.
That's why I picked up the camera.
I, I felt like it was a, pardonthe pun, but it was like a
passport into people's lives.
Mica (26:16):
You mentioned that there came a point in your career where you
realized that if the kind of shootsthat you wanna do, the kind of clients
you want to book, you're not gonnafind them here in Texas and that
you have to go where, where it is.
You said that you exploded your life.
Looking back on that decisionto explode your life.
(26:37):
How do you feel about that choice now?
Penny (26:40):
Oh, I mean, that was the one of the best decisions I've ever made.
I grew as a creative person.
Than, more than anything.
New York, there isa, how should I put this?
There is a work ethic herethat, I mean, people hustle.
People come here to work.
Full stop.
People come here to learn, togrow, to get their experience.
(27:02):
To become something.
A lot of people come hereto prove themselves.
So if you give them an opportunity,they're gonna show up and they're
gonna show up early and theymight not even wanna be paid.
I pay people, just so you know,but what I'm saying is, is people
are wanting the experience here.
And not every city inthe world is like that.
A lot of cities, mostcities aren't like that.
(27:23):
I felt like I was having a hardtime finding collaborators in Texas.
I had a hard time finding stylists, propstylists, food stylists that I felt like
specialized primarily in still tabletop.
I do shoots in Texas now andthere are stylists there for sure.
I just felt like what the opportunitiesI would have in New York, this is
(27:46):
the publishing capital of the world.
There is a photographer on every corner.
It's very competitive.
People here are hustling.
They're working.
They are putting everything theyhave on the line to make it.
It's expensive to live here.
You can't rest.
You gotta work, you gotta pound thepavement and say something and say it as
(28:06):
loud as you can, or you won't make it.
I love being here for that reason.
And it's made me the photographerI am today for that reason.
If you're seeing me branch out or dosomething different, it's because I'm
growing, I'm learning, I'm pushing myself,and that's honestly what you have to do.
If you want to be a competitivephotographer in this marketplace, you have
to be willing to be open and still hustle.
(28:27):
Every day's a hustle.
I've never rested on my laurels, ever.
Not that, I can't.
I gotta pay the rent.
I still have to take care ofmyself and, it is what it is.
I choose to live here.
And that's part of the choice you make.
Mica (28:42):
So you've exploded your life.
What did that look like?
What does exploding your life look like?
Penny (28:50):
I had a house in Austin.
I sold a bunch of things.
I packed everything up.
I got in a U-Haul and Idrove across the country.
I rented my first apartmentin the West Village.
It was like a studio apartment.
It was crazy expensive.
I had work immediately the minute I gothere, and I've always worked for myself.
Like any photographer, youhave good months and bad months.
(29:11):
It's, it's always like that.
Mica (29:13):
What advice would you give to any food photographers who are
thinking about exploding theirlife and moving to another city?
Penny (29:20):
That's an interesting question.
I don't think you needto live in New York.
I think you moved to New Yorkbecause you wanna live in this city.
I know other photographers whohave really been so successful.
I do think Texas, interms of work has changed.
I think there is more work.
I think a lot of work gets shotin Texas also, so it's changed
(29:41):
and it's only gonna change more.
So I don't, I don't feel like photographyhas really changed in the last two years.
And it's only gonna continue to change.
Right.
I don't think you haveto be in New York now.
I really don't.
I choose to live here because thecreative energy and the work ethic
and sense of like competitivenessthat does keep me going too.
(30:03):
Maybe I kind of hate it though,but that's another conversation.
It pushes me.
I'm pushed here, and I definitely canfind collaborators and I appreciate that.
But I guess what I'm trying to say is Idon't think you need to live in New York.
I think it's just, it's,the game has changed.
So much.
Mica (30:19):
What do you think makes a good food photograph and how do
you know when you've captured that?
Penny (30:26):
I think composition, light, color, subject matter, all those
contribute to like a, a good photograph.
But I think just the telltale sign is ifyou feel something when you look at it.
And I do think when you look ata food photograph, if it doesn't
make you hungry or want to eat it,then it's, it's not working right.
Maybe it's not an appetizing foodphotograph, but you should feel something.
(30:47):
An image should evoke an emotion.
Mica (30:50):
Have you ever had those moments where you looked at your
photo and you didn't feel anything?
What did you do in that moment?
Penny (30:58):
All the time.
All the time.
And sometimes you don't always getto make the photo you wanna make.
You get a creative brief from an agencyor a client and they have a very specific
thing in mind that they want to capture.
Then it becomes you're workingfor someone, you're working with
someone, you're creating their idea.
What they want is way moreimportant than that when you want.
(31:20):
You can bring your expertise.
You can contribute your thoughts, andyou can influence it as much as you want.
But oftentimes you, you get thesebriefs and they're very specific about
that, what they want and do I alwaysfeel like, oh my God, I nailed it.
This is incredible.
No, but that's not whatthey were looking for.
Mica (31:37):
One of my former professors, Frank Curry, said in classes, that with client
work, you have to deliver every time.
There's no room for error.
When you do your portfolio work, that'sthe time to explore, get creative, and
make whatever mistakes you wanna make.
Do you ever do like portfolio work?
Where it's just for you?
Work just for you?
Penny (31:58):
You mean where I'm not getting paid?
Someone's not paying me to do.
Mica (32:02):
Yeah, I call portfolio work.
Penny (32:04):
Yeah.
I call it a test shoot.
Yeah, absolutely.
All the time.
I'd probably do that more.
I'm doing it at least once a month.
Right.
At least.
It's harder to do that.
Right now where I'm at with my workas I'm really interested in, I wanna
shoot more lifestyle, I wanna shootmore people in, in their space.
Getting a little more back tostorytelling, but also bringing, a little
(32:25):
bit of a controlled environment to it.
I wanna photograph,photograph more people.
I liked seeing people.
I like hearing stories.
I like connecting.
I wanna contemplate a littlebit more what they're gonna
wear, the environment we're gonnashoot in, how I might light it.
It's not like going to Sicily anddriving around for two weeks in a
car rental and just finding peoplewho let you into their house.
Mica (32:47):
If a photographer came to your house and photographed your home,
what feeling would you want themto have upon entering your home?
Penny (32:55):
I would want them to be inspired.
I would want them to feel reallygrounded, inspired and, open.
And really good, filled with likea very positive, warm feeling.
I want people to feel like that when I'mphotographing it that, but if they walk
into my home, I hope they feel that too.
Yeah.
Mica (33:13):
It reminds me of, of what you were talking about in the TED Talk where
you said, about the men who like wassharing the meal that this was one of
the only ways that they remembered home.
Penny (33:26):
They were cooking family recipes and that's how they remember home.
And that's how we allremember home, right?
I can make my mom's arroz conpollo or calabaza con pollo..
And I know in that moment when I smell,the squash and the chicken and the rice
kind of all cooking together, then Ican see my mom in the kitchen again.
(33:46):
I could feel that feeling for a minute.
It's beautiful.
Mica (33:50):
I love that.
I love that.
You did a, a workshop back inJanuary, which I wanted to go to,
I really wanted to go to that.
Do you have any upcoming projectsthat, that you're excited
about to explore in the future?
Penny (34:04):
I do.
I'm up for a really great bookproject that I'm super excited about.
I mean, that would betraveling to multiple countries
photographing food culture.
Hopefully it works out.
Let's everybody cross their fingers.
But you know what I realized, though, it'slike it is the dream assignment, right?
But I realized why I shouldjust be doing this for myself.
I should just be doing that for myself.
(34:25):
It hearkens back to that very firstquestion you asked me in the very
beginning of this interview aboutthat caption I wrote on January, 2020,
And it was just this moment where Irealized I really love photographing
people and culture around food.
I mean, that's just what broughtme into food photography.
I wanna get back to storytelling.
(34:46):
Not that I don't love thestudio, but after being
inside for the last few years.
I just, I crave connection and gathering.
So I wanna get back to that.
That's my own goal.
That's why this project that's coming up,if I am awarded it, it would be amazing.
But also, even if I don't, it's okay.
You know?
Like I, I think I need to get backto doing that work for myself.
(35:09):
I need to do that for me.
I need to go to like threedifferent countries the rest
of the year and photograph.
That's why you have miles, right?
Mica (35:16):
Well I'm putting that, that positive energy out there.
I want you to get this assignment, thisbook assignment, and make it happen,
cuz I know it's gonna turn out magical.
I wanna ask you aboutthe about the workshops.
So what, what prompts the work workshops?
What do you enjoy about them?
Penny (35:34):
I'm not sure.
I do enjoy them if I'm really honest withyou, and that's why I don't do 'em a lot.
First of all, it's a lot ofwork and I don't mind working.
I will definitely work hard, but I'mnot sure it's how I want to be working.
And if I'm really honest, sometimesI need to make money, you know,
and it's been a weird few years.
Publishing is wow.
(35:54):
I mean, diminished.
I lost two or three big publishingclients in the last few years because
those publications are no longer printing.
If they're publishing it's online andtheir budgets are, it's not there.
Yeah.
It's just, it's not there.
Yeah.
So it is what it is.
Right.
I do the workshops to supplement.
(36:15):
Right.
I have to be in business.
I'm in business whether I like it or not.
So it's an opportunity to make some money.
To kind of cushion myself a littlebit through the winter months.
And I do enjoy meetingthe people that sign up.
Oftentimes, there are people that havefollowed me for a long time and I have
repeat customers, which is really cool.
And I always have a great party.
Like we had this amazing party after wewrap this workshop, and I, people didn't
(36:38):
leave till like one in the morning.
What?
Yes, yes.
True story.
After being on set fromlike eight in the morning.
Mica (36:48):
I watched your Creative Live course and like all the students were sitting
there watching and then you did , thephoto shoot at the end and I'm like,
I wanna knock one of those people offthose chairs so I can take their spot.
I understand where you're comingfrom, but I do hope that you do more
workshops, because I wanna go to one.
I wanna go to one.
Penny (37:09):
I have a question for you then.
So, I was thinking about doing theworkshops like online and maybe, I have
a friend that's a poet actually in Austin.
She does a poetry workshop, andthey meet once a week for
like three hours on Sunday.
And I thought, well, maybe that couldbe a cool way to meet, do the workshop,
over like five week or six week period.
It's more intimate, you know?
(37:29):
But I could give you assignments, wecould look at work, would be a little bit
more, probably have a growing experience.
Mica (37:36):
I would totally be down for that.
And I know at least 20other food photographers who
would be so down for that.
Absolutely.
I would totally be downfor something like that.
And I know that people who are listenedto this show would be down for that too.
And you might even get some foodstylists who are definitely eager
to learn about how to be a bettercollaborator with a food photographer.
(37:59):
So whatever, whatever you'reputting out there, I will move
mountains to be a part of it.
Penny (38:05):
Oh my gosh, that's so sweet of you.
Thank you for the encouragement.
I really appreciate it.
I think I might do it.
I, I, oh, I dunno.
I think, and maybe it'sa better format for me.
Mica (38:14):
It's all a personal decision.
So if you choose not to,that's totally up to you.
But if you do, I'm gonna come a run in.
If you do,
Penny (38:22):
Maybe I'll do one round.
I'll let you know.
Okay?
Mica (38:26):
Okay.
Okay.
All right.
So I have one last question foryou and before I ask it, I really
just want to say thank you so much.
I've learned so much from thisconversation, but I want to
know what you hope the listenerslearn from today's episode.
Penny (38:43):
Hmm.
That's a great question.
Well, first of all,thank you for having me.
I'm so glad we connected.
I'm so glad we talked.
I'm really, really glad that I met youand, I'm always here if you ever wanna
talk about your own work or anything.
I might not get back to you rightaway, but I will get back to you.
I hope that your listenersrealize that there's more than
one way to pursue their passion.
(39:06):
I hope that they realize, that if you'renot having fun and you're not enjoying
it, maybe it's not the right thing.
Photography is a, it's work every day.
It's also a business.
So, be smart about it, be wise.
But don't be intimidated.
Don't be afraid to try it.
Mica (39:23):
Don't be afraid to try it.
It's an everyday work.
Penny (39:26):
It's an exercise every day, right.
It's a relationship andit's a lifestyle too.
And it changes for everybody.
Like any relationship, somedays will be better than others.
Some weeks you'll be in love.
Other weeks you'll just bekind of coasting, you know?
Mica (39:41):
I like what you said, that it's a relationship.
Thank you so much for being a gueston this itty bitty podcast of mine.
Penny (39:48):
Congratulations.
You're crushing it.
Mica (39:51):
Thank you.
Penny (39:51):
You're doing a great job.
I wouldn't be here if I didn'tfeel like you were, you were
adding to this space, so thank you.
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On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!