May 1, 2024 • 40 mins
Is your passion for creativity consuming your peace?
Today, let's dive deep into a conversation that's close to many of our hearts but often neglected—self-care in the creative industry. Joining us is Michael Hilgers, a licensed therapist who specializes in helping creatives navigate the emotional rollercoaster of their professions.
Meet Michael Hilgers: Therapist to the CreativesMichael brings a unique perspective to the table, blending his expertise in therapy with an understanding of the creative mind. His experience with entrepreneurs and artists allows him to address the specific challenges faced by those in creative fields, making him the perfect guest for this discussion.
Exploring the Struggle with Self-CareIn this episode, we uncover why creatives often find it hard to prioritize their mental health. Michael explains how the continuous demand to produce and innovate can lead to neglecting one's well-being. We delve into the common feelings of being overwhelmed and the importance of integrating mental wellness into our daily routines.
Embrace WellnessI encourage you to think about your own self-care routines. Are they sufficient? Are they consistent? If not, consider this a gentle nudge to start taking your mental health as seriously as your art. Remember, nourishing your mind is as crucial as nurturing your creativity.
Why Balancing Act is Key to Flourishing CreativelyAs we wrap up, remember that finding balance isn't just beneficial; it's necessary for sustainable creativity. Take the steps needed to ensure you're not just surviving in your creative pursuits but thriving. With Michael's insights, let's commit to making our mental health a priority.
Let's continue this vital conversation and support each other in our journeys. Remember, in the realm of creativity, caring for your mind is not a luxury—it's a fundamental part of the process.
💬 Join the ConversationSavory Shot Shownote: https://micamccook.com/guests/michael-hilgers/
Website: https://micamccook.com/podcast
Instagram: www.instragram.com/mica.mccook
Instagram: www.instagram.com/thesavoryshotpodcast
Would you like to be a guest on the show? Fill out the guest form, and we'll be in touch soon.
Special ThanksAnd before we wrap up, a huge shoutout to our sponsor, Flodesk, for supporting this episode. Don't forget to check out their email design services tailored for food photographers, and enjoy an exclusive discount just for our listeners!
So, are you ready to turn your limitations into your greatest strengths? Tune in now, and let's embark on this creative journey together. After all, the best masterpieces often come from the most unexpected places! 🚀✨ Get 50% off your first year by using the code: SAVORYSHOT50 Visit Flodesk now
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mica (00:00):
Welcome to the 47th episode of The Savory Shot.
A podcast about the art and soulof working in food photography.
Y'all know who I be.
I'm your host with the most Mica McCook.
I am a food photographerbased out of Austin, Texas.
Whether this is your first time, your47th time, welcome to what I like to
(00:24):
lovingly call the Hot Mess Express.
Make yourselves at home.
I want to start this par-tayoff by wishing all of y'all a
happy first day of the month.
Y'all, I love May.
It's my best friend's birthday.
And May is also MentalHealth Awareness Month.
And I am a firm believer thatmental health is real wealth.
(00:50):
I knew I couldn't start this month offwithout talking about mental health.
Y'all know this topic is extremelyimportant to me because, like many
of y'all, I've felt the squeezeof trying to balance everything.
Balance life, your art, your career,your relationships, everything.
Let me ask y'all this.
(01:11):
Have you ever felt likeyou're playing a part?
Like you're showing the world oneside of you while behind the scenes
you are scrambling just to keep itall together or that the more you
pour yourself into the business sideof your work, the less you have left
for your creativity or for yourself.
(01:32):
Y'all, I, I don't have to say this toy'all because I know you know, but being
a freelance photographer, it is demanding.
It's just hard to get your foot inthe door, hard to stay in the room.
I have faced moments whereeverything seemed too much.
There's just too much.
You gotta market yourself, you gottanetwork, you gotta do your test shoots,
(01:56):
and keep your books balanced, andsomewhere in between you're supposed to
get some rest, and you're supposed to hangout with your friends, and make time for
your family, you know, it's just a lot.
And I know, that you've struggled, feltoverwhelmed, and like me, you've learned
the hard way that neglecting your mentalhealth just throws everything off balance.
(02:19):
Which is why I'm so excitedabout today's guests.
Joining us is Michael Hilgers.
He is a licensed therapist with a knackfor understanding the creative mind.
Michael has dedicated his career tohelping entrepreneurs and artists
manage the psychological highsand lows of their profession.
(02:42):
And y'all, I just want to say this,this interview had me screaming
hallelujah to the sky above becauseMichael brought the gospel y'all.
He just spoke the truth.
We explored why creatives often strugglewith self care and how integrating
mental wellness into our daily routines,not only enhances our creativity,
(03:07):
but sustains our passion long term.
Y'all, you do not wantto miss this episode.
So before we get into this meatyepisode, grab your coffee, your tea.
Let's start the show.
(04:27):
I want to start by saying thankyou, Michael, for being on the show.
For talking about thisvery important topic.
Discussion that we're about to have.
So thank you so much for being here.
Michael (04:38):
You're welcome.
I'm excited to be here.
Mica (04:41):
I will start off by saying how I found you I was in search for a
business coach and I found your website.
What intrigued me wasthat you treat creatives.
I'm very curious to hear what made youinterested in helping creative people.
Michael (04:57):
Hopefully this answer isn't too anticlimactic.
I didn't intentionallyset out to, I think.
When I first started my practice, itreally came down to office location.
I have an office downtown in a great area.
The way the business gets builtoftentimes is that, your clients
end up referring their friendsor family and things like that.
(05:17):
Early on I had a few writers.
I have worked with some photographers.
Quite a few like screenwriters,things like that.
And it just rolled from there.
They referred their friends andoftentimes creative people are
surrounded by creative people.
And I do think it fitswith just me as a person.
I definitely value the creative arts.
(05:39):
And I also think just personalitywise, I'm pretty just down to earth.
I don't take myself too seriously.
I think that makes meapproachable by a lot of people.
So I think just all of those kindof combined into, Oh, I do this.
What we were talking about earlier, Ido think people appreciate feeling seen.
For a lot of therapists, we reallylike to focus on the letters after our
(06:02):
names, or our theoretical orientations,and we like to talk about that on
our websites, and how, cognitivebehavioral therapy is great, and
it is, but like, people don't care.
People don't care about any of that stuff.
As a business owner and from amarketing standpoint, even I think
I've veered pretty early on at justtrying to identify the types of
(06:24):
people that I wanted to work with.
And that came down to people I enjoytalking with who tended to be creative.
That spills into the entrepreneuriallandscape, small business owners,
co founders, things like that.
Mica (06:37):
You said earlier that people want to feel seen.
As you began to treat more creatives,what did they have in common?
Michael (06:47):
It's hard.
It's hard to do creativework professionally.
There's a ton of vulnerability in that.
There's a ton of identitywrapped up into it.
It's not work that you justclock out at the end of the
day and you're done with it.
Right.
Like, I mean, it, it, It is.
Typically just veryintegrated into one's life.
It's a great thing andit's also a real challenge.
(07:09):
It creates issues with boundaries.
It creates issues withconfidence and self esteem.
If somebody doesn't go to your opening,when you get bad reviews or somebody
doesn't like the work that you created.
I always think of a smallchild that is presenting their
crayon drawing to your parent.
What a vulnerable moment that is.
A lot of adults grow out of that, intheir lives, but I think for creative
(07:32):
people, like they never leave that place.
Mica (07:35):
Oh, I, you, I, gosh, if I could just throw out some confetti, I would because
you really nailed it when you said it'shard and there's so much vulnerability.
Even when you're not in front ofthe computer or you're not with
the camera, your mind is stillthinking about these are all the
(07:55):
things that I need to do today.
It's such a vulnerable place to be.
Michael (08:00):
Yeah, and combined with that, the creative component of it, right?
For people that are also doingthat for a living, you've got this
whole back end of stuff that like,they don't want to be doing that.
Nobody wants to be balancing the booksor marketing or God forbid networking.
That's probably some projection there onmy part, but like, I hate networking, but
(08:22):
like people don't do it for those things.
And yet that's probably, if you're goingto be successful, that's just as important
as the creative work that you're doing.
And so you've got these two very opposingthings that require different skill
sets, different parts of our brain.
And so that just adds to the stress.
(08:42):
and so many people fail, I think,in opening up their own business.
It's been a while since I've looked atthe stats, but it's like the overwhelming
majority are shut down in three years.
Just across industries, doesn't matter,and it's cause it's freaking hard.
And, I want to be doing this thing, forphotography, I want to be practicing my
art, but I've got to spend, another 40hours doing all this stuff that I hate
(09:09):
and that I've never learned how to do.
That's what I think surprises most people.
Off the top of my head, I think likewe're some kind of study that like 70
percent of Americans like dream aboutowning, opening their own business.
Being self employed.
Some small percentage, I dunno, 10%,actually do it, probably fewer than that.
And then of that, a very smallpercentage even make it past,
(09:31):
the two to three ear marks.
It's just, hard.
It's like the best thing working foryourself and also the worst thing.
It's these complete like incongruentkind of experiences of like freedom.
It's just me and oh crap, it's just me.
Mica (09:47):
Full stop.
Yes, to all of that.
There's a lot of freedomthat comes with it.
But there's always that little scarythought in the back of your mind
wondering is this the right choice?
I could go either left, I could go right.
I remember a couple years ago just beingcompletely overwhelmed by everything.
Getting into photography.
I was working a day job full time.
(10:10):
On top of that, I had started afood blog with a friend of mine.
I really put a lot of happiness on hold.
And I really didn't wantto admit that it's hard.
Why is it so hard for some artiststo articulate that feeling?
Michael (10:26):
I don't necessarily think that's unique to artists, but I would
lump that more in with some of thepressure that goes with owning your own
business because one it's again, like thedream of most Americans is to do that.
So there's this idea that we've created.
It's also really important topresent that kind of front, Oh,
(10:48):
like I've got it all together.
I've got this figured out.
And so there's not a lot of roomto be able to say I'm struggling.
I'm in it over my head.
I'm overwhelmed.
All of those things they fly directly inthe face of, the importance of appearing
like, you know what you're doing.
(11:08):
So you've got this dissonancethat's created, because you have
outwardly, you're marketing yourself.
You must need work.
You're creating this curated imagewhich may actually be important.
Like that may matter.
I don't want to discount, the validityof that but then that dissonance is
created because our brains really don'tlike it when the outside and the inside
(11:31):
don't match up, and so internally you'refreaking out, but then you're on set.
Running the show, but acting like you'vegot everything put together, because
that's what you need to do, that'syour role, and our brains, man, they
have a hard time with those opposites.
And so I think is really we're a lot ofanxiety, really gets born out of that.
That's like right ground for that becauseour brains are both like, wait a minute.
(11:55):
How can these two opposite thingsbe happening at the same time?
Mica (11:58):
It truly reminds me of how the theater world works.
Outside on stage, you havethis magnificent show going on.
Everybody knows their lines.
It's a perfect show.
Cues are happening when they're supposedto happen, but backstage one of the
costumes has gone missing or one of theactors didn't show up and you have less
than two minutes to get this figured out.
(12:19):
That's what it's like for me on set.
When I'm with my clients and they seeme and they're like, she's got it.
And, then I run in thebathroom like oh shit.
I don't know what I'm doing.
Michael (12:33):
Yeah, it's one of those things where from a business
perspective it's really necessaryto be able to compartmentalize and
put on the role and show up likejust from a business perspective.
But it turns out from a mentalhealth perspective, like
that's really not good for us.
Yeah, we can pull it off or oncein a while, but if you're having
to move into that space prettyregularly, like that takes a toll.
(12:56):
Again, there's that tension betweenwhat may be good for the business,
versus what may be good for me.
And that, that's a fine lineto try and navigate that.
When you go too far, one sideor the other, I mean, that's,
that's grounds for burnout.
Mica (13:10):
I want to take it to resistance to therapy.
I started therapy in 2020 but Iwas pretty resistant years before.
I thought, therapy is for crazy people.
I don't want to talk tosomeone about my problems.
My business is my business.
I don't want to throw that on anyone.
I've been through a lot in my life.
Ultimately, I realized that there were twothings that was keeping me from therapy.
(13:35):
One was that, I was really uncomfortableto talk about the things that have
happened to me in my life, andconfronting that and facing that.
And two, I was embarrassedabout needing therapy.
I felt like it was a weak qualityto want therapy or to need therapy.
(13:55):
But what would you say to someonewho feels embarrassed or is
struggling, or thinking, buthesitating about seeking therapy?
Michael (14:04):
Just visually, I'm guessing that I'm a little bit older than you.
In my time on this earth, I'vedefinitely seen it get better.
It, people are so muchmore open to it now.
It's so much more in themainstream portrayed in the media,
things like that talk about.
So just even that, we're in a much betterplace, but I think there's two things.
I think one people in general, evenif we need to change, even if there's
(14:26):
positive things that we can do.
We're pretty committed tostay, staying the same.
Like internally, like wereally what's a good word?
Homeostasis, I don't know if that'sa good word or not, but like,
just remaining in the same state.
For most people, there's that,that, that tug of war internally.
I'm just Oh, look, I reallyneed to do this different.
All of a sudden, thiswould be better for me.
(14:47):
And then I need to work on these things.
I need to improve in those areas.
But then there's that other part of methat's just Oh, I don't want to do that.
Let's just, this is, this is comfortable.
It may not be good, butit's at least I can know it.
So some of that is just the fearof I don't know what that would be.
Either just on a practical level ofwalking into an office, getting onto a
couch, or logging on to a Zoom or whateverto meet with a stranger and talk about
(15:09):
things that I don't normally talk aboutwith anybody sure, that's intimidating.
Even if rationally we knowthat might be better for us.
Again I do think the stigmas havegone down a little bit in general,
but yeah there's also that idea of it.
It's intrigued because I can'tremember the exact word you used
just a minute here, but it's likethe idea of being and the irony
(15:33):
there is oh, it's just the opposite.
Like it takes such strength towalk into somebody's office.
That's such a sign of strength andresilience and all of those things that
it's the exact opposite of weakness.
But man, practicing that vulnerability,asking for help, or just acknowledging
man, that can really help build upresilience and improve confidence
(15:55):
and all of those things that it'ssuch a good skill to practice.
All of the things that I wasfearing, it was just in my head
when I was just anxiety talking.
So I think really just steppinginto that fear is important.
The other thing too, I mean, I don'tthink you were alluding to this talking
about this kind of people's reluctanceto therapy is, is just also access.
(16:18):
It's expensive.
It takes time.
Depending on where you live, you Ido think like the push into different
platforms being available for peopleto just talk via distance, you know,
I'm in New Mexico, you're in Texas.
That, that's gone a long wayin terms of recruiting access
. Even in Austin, there's several organizations that offer low
(16:38):
cost access to clinicians.
Sometimes you have to be a littlecreative, about finding what the
thing that's going to work for you,but if you can lower those barriers,
that does a great deal for people.
Mica (16:48):
You mentioned earlier about people feel comfortable
staying in the same place.
Michael (16:54):
what I mean?
Mica (16:54):
It reminded me of a video I just watched yesterday with
Tony Robbins and Theo Vaughn.
Theo was talking about how it's hard forhim to say that he's proud of himself,
that if he wrote it on a wall and thatsaid, I'm proud of you, that it would
make him feel guilty for being proud.
That his normal reaction isto go back to those negative
(17:18):
feelings of self deprecation.
I'm this, I'm not that.
Tony mentioned because it feelslike home, and even though, it's
bad for you and that it's harmingyou and hurting you, it's still home
and you feel comfortable at home.
I figured out why it's sohard for me to ask for help.
It stems from my childhood about havingto figure life out for myself and
always having to get myself out of jams.
(17:39):
Even just a few weeks ago, I wastrying to get a baking dish at
the very top of our cupboards.
The things almost toppled on top of me andmy husband just came in, he grabbed it.
He's tall guy and he came and grabbed it.
And he goes, why didn'tyou just ask me for help?
And I was like, Oh, cause I gotthis ladder and I could have done.
And he's yeah, but it wouldhave been easier if you would
have just asked for help.
And I'm like, he's right.
It would have been easier.
(18:00):
I don't know, like, how do we get inthat frame of mind that it's easier
to ask for help than it would beto just figure it out for yourself.
I'm finding in the photographycommunity, it's hard for people to
reach out to another photographerand say, hey, I'm trying to get
into this industry and I don't know.
I don't know what I'm doing.
Can you help me?
(18:21):
Or reaching out to anyone andsaying, I just don't know what
I'm doing and I need some help.
Michael (18:27):
That goes back to the idea of, particularly like for self
employed folks , there is so muchidentity wrapped up into it, right?
I can remember starting out andwhat do you do, put a sign out?
Hope somebody like is walkingby that wants therapy?
I had no idea what I was doing and Iwas fortunate in that I had several
(18:48):
really good friends they were the onesthat kind of encouraged me to do it.
And I can remember calling them up atdifferent times and just saying the
next person that calls you, you needto send them my way . Instead of taking
them for yourself, you need to sendthat person to me because that was
the only way it was going to happen.
The internet was existing then, butit really wasn't, it wasn't anything
like it was now, and really it wasall about relationships and like I
(19:13):
didn't have a choice like it was likenobody's walking in the door, and so
somebody needs to just give me a solid.
And that's a really unpleasantplace to be you know.
To have to ask.
Our culture just reinforces thatidea of Oh, you just need it.
What is it?
Pull yourself up by your bootstrapsor whatever, that phrase that's
(19:34):
taken on a whole different meaning.
It is so unfortunate becausemost people are happy to help.
Most people are, and what agreat way to build relationships.
If we were all invested in everybodyelse's success, what a great place to be.
I would imagine, in the photography world,it's easy to get in that scarcity mindset.
(19:57):
If I had asked my friends to sendme the next person and they were
just like no, like they're mine.
So there's a scarcity mindset ofwe're competing against everybody.
There's this adversarial kindof position to take, and that
just further isolates us all.
It just makes it all harder.
So anything I think that we can do inour respective industries to reform those
(20:19):
relationships to be willing to like, sayHey I actually know something about that.
Let me help you.
Mica (20:23):
For sure.
There's a video thatArnold Schwarzenegger.
He had such a great messageabout how he got to where he
is because of all the help.
And I'm like, that is theperspective that we need more of.
That no one gets to whereverthey are by themselves.
I love that.
I want to take it to why is itimportant for photographers to
(20:46):
prioritize their mental health,especially when they're starting out.
Michael (20:49):
I think, especially the starting out period is it's, it's critical, right?
You're you're building afoundation of something.
That's something's gonnagrow and evolve over time.
It's not gonna look the same, but likethe foundation that you put is going to.
It's simple in terms of justlike, oh, it's really important
for you to be at your best.
If you're not taking care ofyourself and I'm gonna, I'm gonna
(21:10):
go off on a rant here, but like, thewhole grind mentality, I hate it.
I can't reference somebody that I'veworked with, but it's so unfortunate
that there's this mentality that youhave to somehow, what is grinding?
It's destroying, right?
You basically have to wearyourself out, in order to succeed.
It is, I would guess, maybe notthe number one thing, but it ranks
(21:33):
up there pretty high with folks.
That it ends up doing the exact opposite.
It is like such an impediment.
So often to success, because people areworn out, they're burned out, they're,
disillusioned by this thing, what theythought it was, but then they, they feel
like they've got to work seven days a week, or, they don't have good boundaries,
(21:56):
they don't maintain the things that, thatactually bring them joy and feed their
soul, for the sacrifice of the business.
And some of that is gonna happen.
Like I, I'm not naive to think that like,yeah, it's hard work and you've got to,
you've got to push yourself and all that.
But.
If you're sleep deprived, you'remore inclined to be anxious.
You're not going to havethat clarity of thought.
(22:17):
You're not going to organize.
Things that can fall through the cracks.
The number one thing mostentrepreneurs give up, is sleep.
Mica (22:23):
What are, let's say, three things that someone could be doing right now
to prioritizing their mental health?
Sleep being one of them.
I guess two more.
Michael (22:34):
There are some basics, the basics of like sleeping, eating, exercise.
Beyond that, it's a littledifferent, person to person.
For me, personally it's reallyimportant that I get out on
my mountain bike every week.
Because I just sit and talk topeople, throughout the week.
I read an interesting quote lastnight or saw it or something that,
(22:56):
that was basically like, if you workwith your mind, rest with your hands.
Isn't that great.
This idea of like doing opposites,like our brains in order to encourage
neuroplasticity, it's good tolike bring in opposing things.
Because I sit and talk to peoplethroughout the week, I try to be
really active on the weekends.
And that, that keeps me, I worka lot, but I think that really
(23:19):
protects me against burnout.
If I can get on my bike a couple oftimes a week, get out the mountains,
bust out the welder, fire up theforge, whatever those things are for
me, personally, those are the thingsthat kind of, kind of feed my soul.
Part of it is important for people toknow what those things are for them
and to recognize the value of them.
Intake questionnaire that I giveclients before I talk to them.
(23:41):
One of the questionsis what brings you joy?
And everybody lists stufflike everybody's got stuff.
Nobody has a problemanswering that question.
But when I actually talk to them andask them if they do those things like
the vast majority of people, those arethe first things people give up, in
pursuit of like making the business work.
(24:01):
And it's like, well, like if you'regiving up the stuff that like
really feeds you, that's just asimportant as sleep and eating and,
you know, those more tangible things.
If you give up the stuff that bringsyou joy no wonder you're depressed.
Go do those things.
You already know what they are.
You've got a list right here.
Go play guitar, go paint go dowhatever, play golf, it doesn't
(24:23):
matter what the thing is.
It's just important to do the things.
Mica (24:27):
I'm fully, fully, fully against the hustle till you drop, mentality,
mainly because I fell so far deepinto that and it just, it negatively
impacted all aspects of my life.
My friendships sufferedand my marriage suffered.
My business ultimately suffered.
(24:49):
I burnt myself out.
We're taught that things happenwhen you make them happen.
And I felt like if I'm not devoting allof my waking hours, all of my energy
into making this business work, and thenit doesn't work, that it's my fault.
I read a an Instagram post, liketwo, two years ago, two years ago.
(25:12):
Someone said that the time that you'respending watching your TV show is the time
that you could be watching a tutorial.
And if you're not doing that,then you don't really want this.
But that's really the mindset thatI really struggled with is that
if I'm not doing everything allhours, 24 seven to this business,
(25:33):
at least for the first few years.
And grind, work hard, lose sleep.
Don't hang out with my friends.
Don't do any of those things.
Dedicate everything tomaking this business grow.
And then when it's successful,then I can go rest.
Michael (25:45):
There is.
Always something more you could be doing.
And I do think this particularly forcreative folks, this is where like, it
kind of sucks to be creative becauseyou can come up with an endless
range of possibilities, endlessrange of things I could be doing.
Oh, what about this?
Oh, that'd be a cool idea.
And that never ends and it isboth a blessing and a curse.
(26:08):
Like it requires hard work.
I'm not opposed to people stretchingthemselves and you know, maybe
there are some sleepless nights,but they can't all be sleepless.
It can't always be about work.
And that's the really trickything for most people want
things to be pretty binary.
You like black and white, and it'sup to each individual to figure out
like where that line is for you.
(26:30):
And it's constantly moving,some weeks, some months.
Maybe you've got it in you,you don't like really push.
But you've also got to listen toyourself and get to yourself enough.
To where, you know, like, okay,it's time to just turn on the tv.
That's enough for today.
Mica (26:46):
It's this idea of you always gotta keep up with what's trending.
You always gotta adjustand adapt with the times.
There's no rest.
If you rest, then you'regonna be left behind.
Michael (26:56):
I think there's a whole lot more than just creative folks
struggling with that, right?
That's the pace, of society and life.
As just absolutely crazy as,as COVID was, there was this
forced kind of slowing down.
It was good for some people, a challengefor others, but, you have this external
(27:16):
thing where Oh, like I can't help.
I can't go anywhere,it's not even my choice.
What's the creativity, if you don't allowspace for allowing yourself to be bored.
That's where creativity's born.
That's the birthplace of it.
Mica (27:29):
People don't know how to be bored anymore.
Michael (27:31):
Go be bored.
You've got to allow yourselfto be in that place.
That's not comfortable.
Mica (27:36):
I guess when you're a kid, it's easier to be bored.
Your parents tell yougo find something to do.
And you're like, okay.
But as an adult, you're likewhat can I do to occupy this?
Michael (27:44):
Something that I do intentionally is sometimes I'll just
leave my house without my phone.
I intentionally just leave itbehind every once in a while.
I am the weirdo in the barber shopthat is not looking at his phone.
Like I will just sit there and do exactlywhat you do I can smell the aftershave.
I can hear the buzz of the clippers.
Maybe I feel the sun coming throughthe window on the back of my neck,
but like being in the moment.
(28:05):
Just being present.
Restaurants are great for sensorykind of stuff, but anything you can
do to just activate any knowledge,pay attention to your senses.
We always have them with us.
It's a great practice.
Mica (28:16):
My husband, he's very like, disciplined with his
phone and keeping it away.
When we moved in together, one of thethings that he did not want whatsoever
was our phones in our bedroom.
And he's like, there's a spacethat we can put that, and I'm
like but I need the alarm.
What if there's an emergencyand someone needs to call me?
(28:37):
And what if we need to call 911?
You mentioned something earlier thatjust stood out to me about anxiety.
My photographer friends talk about howthey never experienced or they never
remembered experiencing anxiety to thatlevel until they became freelancers.
I myself didn't realize that everythingthat I was experiencing was anxiety.
(29:01):
My question is, what are some commontriggers for anxiety and burnout that
photographers can identify early?
What can they do when they feel that?
Michael (29:10):
I'll start with the second part first.
People don't like this idea, but likefighting against anxiety trying not to
be anxious often just exacerbates it.
Part of addressing anxiety is one,it's really great to put a label on
it because then you know what it is.
Whether it's physical manifestationof symptoms or ruminating thoughts
(29:33):
or whatever, just being able tolabel it as Oh, that's anxiety.
And there's my old friend, andit really does require just like
some acceptance of Okay, I guessI'm going to feel anxious today.
It's just a feeling.
It's just chemicals.
It's just electrical impulses.
When you push against things, theytend to just take root even stronger.
I think that would be number one is,and it's way easier for me to say
that than actually do in practice,but just the acceptance of the anxiety
(29:58):
can be really actually helpful.
Again, like the goal islike not to eradicate it.
Anxiety can be really productive.
Anxiety can make sure wepay our taxes on time.
Anxiety can keep us fromwalking out in front of a bus.
It's a useful, helpfulkind of thing sometimes.
So the more you can just recognize Ohyeah, like I'm doing something scary.
I should feel anxious about this.
(30:19):
That's a normal kind of response.
It's to be anything scary, andthe trick is just to keep doing it
You do it in spite of the fear.
You don't let the anxietymake the decisions for you.
It's a long term ride.
It's there, but it's not worth the show.
That's where therapy can really help.
Mica (30:36):
You mentioned earlier about.
accepting that you're feeling anxiety,accepting you're experiencing an emotion.
What does that look like whensomeone identifies it and accepts
it and can move forward from it?
I guess what I really mean toask is, what should they do?
After they accept it to helpthem move forward from it?
Michael (30:58):
Grounding kind of things.
That the sensory stuff thatwe were talking about earlier.
Can be really helpful.
I tend to be a little bit closed off as aperson, although my friends would call it
a loof I've over the years developed thispractice of, a lot of, apparently a lot
of stuff happens to me at grocery stores.
I go into the grocery store, youknow, inevitably the cashier is going
to ask you how your day is going.
(31:19):
It's almost always going tohappen in the grocery store or
convenience store or whatever.
And.
I had to kind of challengethis aloof part of me.
I've made it the practice oflike, I will answer that question.
I'm not going to sit there andlike for 30 minutes, like dump on
somebody at the grocery store line.
I'm not going to hold up theline or anything like that.
But like, I'm going togive an honest answer.
And part of that is like, I stop andjust kind of check in with myself.
(31:43):
How is my day going?
I'm just going to give an honest answer.
And if I'm feeling anxious aboutsomething, I'm going to say, you know
what, like I'm actually feeling a littleanxious today, or I'm having a great day.
Whatever it is, I'm justgoing to get an honest answer.
Anxiety, like thrives in the darkness.
The more we try to appear not anxious,the more we try to pretend it's not there.
(32:04):
Like it just, it really likes that.
And so just a simple acknowledgement.
You don't have to be at the grocery store.
It could be with a friend.
It could be with whoever.
But being able to just saylike, I'm feeling anxious today.
That's another part of that acceptance.
Mica (32:18):
Something you touched on earlier that ties in with the
acceptance of feeling an emotion.
It reminds me of a conversation I hadwith my therapist, Sarah, hello, Sarah.
She mentioned that it takes, about 10seconds to really feel an emotion and
to experience it and go through withit and come out the other side of it
(32:39):
and that often most people don't takeeight seconds to experience something.
If they're experiencing anger orsomething other than joy and happiness
that they just push that down.
You have just these group of folks whohave pushed down years and years of
anger, sadness, discomfort, whatevernegative emotion there is out there.
(33:02):
They just either don't take the time tofeel it, and therefore they can't move
past it, or they just explode with it out.
They're like a little time bomb.
You never know when it's goingto happen, when it's going to go.
And so that's why I'm like, wondering,what does acceptance look like?
And how do you move past that?
Because to feel it and accept it is great.
To move on from it is justequally as hard as accepting.
(33:26):
This is just an example, let's say youhad a bad experience with a client,
with a photo shoot, and that was just anunpleasant experience and you don't know
how to deal with the feelings that camefrom it or how it came about or resulted.
And so you take that energyinto your next shoot.
(33:46):
And in some ways, I don't want tosay sabotage, but you place what
happened with that client ontowhat happened with the current
client, and you never move past it.
I really think it's because peopledon't take the time to process
what happened, accept it, and sayif I find myself in this situation
(34:07):
again, then I can take it on.
But just because it happened that timedoesn't mean it's going to happen again.
Or just because this happened doesn'tmean it won't happen over there.
Michael (34:17):
Yeah.
Totally.
Totally.
Reactivity is automatic.
It just it happens.
It becomes really important to recognizelike, not all clients are difficult.
Yes, that one was, and even takingthe idea of like acceptance, even a
little bit further of just recognizingwhen you're going into the new client,
recognizing like, Ooh, I'm feeling that.
(34:37):
I know where it's coming from though.
Like it's coming from there and not here.
That may not make it go away,but like really being able to
differentiate, between, a trauma thathappened, and the present moment.
And it's really important to bringyourself back to the present in that
moment, just like, okay, that sucked,but this is not that, and that,
(34:59):
that takes place on relationships,whether any kind of, area of life.
That stuff seeps in and that's just,I think part of the process of life is
being able to differentiate between allthe things that we carry around with us.
I don't know.
I don't know that we everreally get rid of those things.
The things that suck,yeah, that, that happened.
(35:22):
And that's real.
And it and the feelings associated withthat may be around for a really long time.
But learning, to remember that, oh,we're not in that timeline anymore.
We're in this one.
And you didn't use this word earlier,but you kind of alluded to the concept,
I think, of just compartmentalizing.
And it's not always a bad thing.
(35:42):
Sometimes we need tocompartmentalize stuff.
The trick is it's alwaysgoing to find a way out.
Nobody's as good at compartmentalizingthings as they think they are.
It's going to find a way out if you don'tgo back, revisit it, acknowledge it,
accept it, do the stuff, in the moment.
There may be times where thatis a useful, helpful skill.
(36:03):
Yeah.
I just got to get through this thing,but then it's important to go back and
make sure either with somebody else orjust on your island, you're doing some
kind of processing of the thing becauseit's going to seek more than the other.
Mica (36:16):
I only have one more question, if there was one message that a creative
needed to hear, right here, right now,what would that message be for them?
Michael (36:30):
That's a good question.
I can't, I don't know that I can do one.
There's two things thatare coming up for me.
One would be what you bring intothe world is so very important.
Whether it's photographsPoetry, music, or dance.
It is just the heart of being human.
(36:54):
And so I would just say like, Thank you.
That would be my number one.
My number two would be take care ofyourselves, Because without taking
care of yourself, there is no craft.
There, There, there is no work.
That's vital.
if you're not taking care ofyourself the work just isn't there.
That'd be my two things.
Mica (37:12):
The taking care of yourself.
That one just right in the heart.
Man.
Oh my gosh.
I want to keep talking toyou, but I know you got that.
Oh,
Michael (37:23):
minutes,
Mica (37:23):
snap.
So then we really gotto wrap this baby up.
Where can the listeners find you andfollow you and are you accepting patients?
Michael (37:33):
In the spirit of keeping my life simpler, I only have a website.
There's no social media.
Again, going back to the idea of selfcare and there is an endless number of
things that small business owners can do.
I've tried to really keep my lifesimple by just relying on that.
So they can think of my website.
It's my name, Michael Hilgers,followed by the letters, lpc.
(37:55):
com.
So that's my website.
My schedule is really full.
And honestly, from like 2015, whenthe world started going a little wonky
most therapists I know are pretty full.
So on my website, it does saythat I'm not taking new clients.
People reach out to me anyway, if I can'thelp them, I typically try to lighten
(38:16):
them up with somebody else that can.
There's a lot of good resources out there.
I don't encourage people to wait.
If you need to talk to somebody, youcan find you somebody, there are tons
of good therapists in this world.
And so in the spirit of helping othersand not being in that stinger shooting
mindset, I'm happy to refer people out.
(38:36):
People can still reach out tome if they want, even though
it says that on my website.
That's the easiest way to get ahold of me.
Mica (38:41):
And you also I was reading some of your blog posts and I
found that to be such a great
resource as well.
Michael (38:47):
Yeah.
There's just some tonsof good stuff out there.
I've worked pretty hard atbuilding some good resources up.
So appreciate you.
Mica (38:59):
Michael, I thank you so much for being on the show.
Michael (39:03):
Thank you for having me.
It was, this is, this is a fun.
I really enjoyed it.
Welcome to the 47th episode of The Savory Shot.
A podcast about the art and soulof working in food photography.
Y'all know who I be.
I'm your host with the most Mica McCook.
I am a food photographerbased out of Austin, Texas.
Whether this is your first time, your47th time, welcome to what I like to
(00:24):
lovingly call the Hot Mess Express.
Make yourselves at home.
I want to start this par-tayoff by wishing all of y'all a
happy first day of the month.
Y'all, I love May.
It's my best friend's birthday.
And May is also MentalHealth Awareness Month.
And I am a firm believer thatmental health is real wealth.
(00:50):
I knew I couldn't start this month offwithout talking about mental health.
Y'all know this topic is extremelyimportant to me because, like many
of y'all, I've felt the squeezeof trying to balance everything.
Balance life, your art, your career,your relationships, everything.
Let me ask y'all this.
(01:11):
Have you ever felt likeyou're playing a part?
Like you're showing the world oneside of you while behind the scenes
you are scrambling just to keep itall together or that the more you
pour yourself into the business sideof your work, the less you have left
for your creativity or for yourself.
(01:32):
Y'all, I, I don't have to say this toy'all because I know you know, but being
a freelance photographer, it is demanding.
It's just hard to get your foot inthe door, hard to stay in the room.
I have faced moments whereeverything seemed too much.
There's just too much.
You gotta market yourself, you gottanetwork, you gotta do your test shoots,
(01:56):
and keep your books balanced, andsomewhere in between you're supposed to
get some rest, and you're supposed to hangout with your friends, and make time for
your family, you know, it's just a lot.
And I know, that you've struggled, feltoverwhelmed, and like me, you've learned
the hard way that neglecting your mentalhealth just throws everything off balance.
(02:19):
Which is why I'm so excitedabout today's guests.
Joining us is Michael Hilgers.
He is a licensed therapist with a knackfor understanding the creative mind.
Michael has dedicated his career tohelping entrepreneurs and artists
manage the psychological highsand lows of their profession.
(02:42):
And y'all, I just want to say this,this interview had me screaming
hallelujah to the sky above becauseMichael brought the gospel y'all.
He just spoke the truth.
We explored why creatives often strugglewith self care and how integrating
mental wellness into our daily routines,not only enhances our creativity,
(03:07):
but sustains our passion long term.
Y'all, you do not wantto miss this episode.
So before we get into this meatyepisode, grab your coffee, your tea.
Let's start the show.
(04:27):
I want to start by saying thankyou, Michael, for being on the show.
For talking about thisvery important topic.
Discussion that we're about to have.
So thank you so much for being here.
Michael (04:38):
You're welcome.
I'm excited to be here.
Mica (04:41):
I will start off by saying how I found you I was in search for a
business coach and I found your website.
What intrigued me wasthat you treat creatives.
I'm very curious to hear what made youinterested in helping creative people.
Michael (04:57):
Hopefully this answer isn't too anticlimactic.
I didn't intentionallyset out to, I think.
When I first started my practice, itreally came down to office location.
I have an office downtown in a great area.
The way the business gets builtoftentimes is that, your clients
end up referring their friendsor family and things like that.
(05:17):
Early on I had a few writers.
I have worked with some photographers.
Quite a few like screenwriters,things like that.
And it just rolled from there.
They referred their friends andoftentimes creative people are
surrounded by creative people.
And I do think it fitswith just me as a person.
I definitely value the creative arts.
(05:39):
And I also think just personalitywise, I'm pretty just down to earth.
I don't take myself too seriously.
I think that makes meapproachable by a lot of people.
So I think just all of those kindof combined into, Oh, I do this.
What we were talking about earlier, Ido think people appreciate feeling seen.
For a lot of therapists, we reallylike to focus on the letters after our
(06:02):
names, or our theoretical orientations,and we like to talk about that on
our websites, and how, cognitivebehavioral therapy is great, and
it is, but like, people don't care.
People don't care about any of that stuff.
As a business owner and from amarketing standpoint, even I think
I've veered pretty early on at justtrying to identify the types of
(06:24):
people that I wanted to work with.
And that came down to people I enjoytalking with who tended to be creative.
That spills into the entrepreneuriallandscape, small business owners,
co founders, things like that.
Mica (06:37):
You said earlier that people want to feel seen.
As you began to treat more creatives,what did they have in common?
Michael (06:47):
It's hard.
It's hard to do creativework professionally.
There's a ton of vulnerability in that.
There's a ton of identitywrapped up into it.
It's not work that you justclock out at the end of the
day and you're done with it.
Right.
Like, I mean, it, it, It is.
Typically just veryintegrated into one's life.
It's a great thing andit's also a real challenge.
(07:09):
It creates issues with boundaries.
It creates issues withconfidence and self esteem.
If somebody doesn't go to your opening,when you get bad reviews or somebody
doesn't like the work that you created.
I always think of a smallchild that is presenting their
crayon drawing to your parent.
What a vulnerable moment that is.
A lot of adults grow out of that, intheir lives, but I think for creative
(07:32):
people, like they never leave that place.
Mica (07:35):
Oh, I, you, I, gosh, if I could just throw out some confetti, I would because
you really nailed it when you said it'shard and there's so much vulnerability.
Even when you're not in front ofthe computer or you're not with
the camera, your mind is stillthinking about these are all the
(07:55):
things that I need to do today.
It's such a vulnerable place to be.
Michael (08:00):
Yeah, and combined with that, the creative component of it, right?
For people that are also doingthat for a living, you've got this
whole back end of stuff that like,they don't want to be doing that.
Nobody wants to be balancing the booksor marketing or God forbid networking.
That's probably some projection there onmy part, but like, I hate networking, but
(08:22):
like people don't do it for those things.
And yet that's probably, if you're goingto be successful, that's just as important
as the creative work that you're doing.
And so you've got these two very opposingthings that require different skill
sets, different parts of our brain.
And so that just adds to the stress.
(08:42):
and so many people fail, I think,in opening up their own business.
It's been a while since I've looked atthe stats, but it's like the overwhelming
majority are shut down in three years.
Just across industries, doesn't matter,and it's cause it's freaking hard.
And, I want to be doing this thing, forphotography, I want to be practicing my
art, but I've got to spend, another 40hours doing all this stuff that I hate
(09:09):
and that I've never learned how to do.
That's what I think surprises most people.
Off the top of my head, I think likewe're some kind of study that like 70
percent of Americans like dream aboutowning, opening their own business.
Being self employed.
Some small percentage, I dunno, 10%,actually do it, probably fewer than that.
And then of that, a very smallpercentage even make it past,
(09:31):
the two to three ear marks.
It's just, hard.
It's like the best thing working foryourself and also the worst thing.
It's these complete like incongruentkind of experiences of like freedom.
It's just me and oh crap, it's just me.
Mica (09:47):
Full stop.
Yes, to all of that.
There's a lot of freedomthat comes with it.
But there's always that little scarythought in the back of your mind
wondering is this the right choice?
I could go either left, I could go right.
I remember a couple years ago just beingcompletely overwhelmed by everything.
Getting into photography.
I was working a day job full time.
(10:10):
On top of that, I had started afood blog with a friend of mine.
I really put a lot of happiness on hold.
And I really didn't wantto admit that it's hard.
Why is it so hard for some artiststo articulate that feeling?
Michael (10:26):
I don't necessarily think that's unique to artists, but I would
lump that more in with some of thepressure that goes with owning your own
business because one it's again, like thedream of most Americans is to do that.
So there's this idea that we've created.
It's also really important topresent that kind of front, Oh,
(10:48):
like I've got it all together.
I've got this figured out.
And so there's not a lot of roomto be able to say I'm struggling.
I'm in it over my head.
I'm overwhelmed.
All of those things they fly directly inthe face of, the importance of appearing
like, you know what you're doing.
(11:08):
So you've got this dissonancethat's created, because you have
outwardly, you're marketing yourself.
You must need work.
You're creating this curated imagewhich may actually be important.
Like that may matter.
I don't want to discount, the validityof that but then that dissonance is
created because our brains really don'tlike it when the outside and the inside
(11:31):
don't match up, and so internally you'refreaking out, but then you're on set.
Running the show, but acting like you'vegot everything put together, because
that's what you need to do, that'syour role, and our brains, man, they
have a hard time with those opposites.
And so I think is really we're a lot ofanxiety, really gets born out of that.
That's like right ground for that becauseour brains are both like, wait a minute.
(11:55):
How can these two opposite thingsbe happening at the same time?
Mica (11:58):
It truly reminds me of how the theater world works.
Outside on stage, you havethis magnificent show going on.
Everybody knows their lines.
It's a perfect show.
Cues are happening when they're supposedto happen, but backstage one of the
costumes has gone missing or one of theactors didn't show up and you have less
than two minutes to get this figured out.
(12:19):
That's what it's like for me on set.
When I'm with my clients and they seeme and they're like, she's got it.
And, then I run in thebathroom like oh shit.
I don't know what I'm doing.
Michael (12:33):
Yeah, it's one of those things where from a business
perspective it's really necessaryto be able to compartmentalize and
put on the role and show up likejust from a business perspective.
But it turns out from a mentalhealth perspective, like
that's really not good for us.
Yeah, we can pull it off or oncein a while, but if you're having
to move into that space prettyregularly, like that takes a toll.
(12:56):
Again, there's that tension betweenwhat may be good for the business,
versus what may be good for me.
And that, that's a fine lineto try and navigate that.
When you go too far, one sideor the other, I mean, that's,
that's grounds for burnout.
Mica (13:10):
I want to take it to resistance to therapy.
I started therapy in 2020 but Iwas pretty resistant years before.
I thought, therapy is for crazy people.
I don't want to talk tosomeone about my problems.
My business is my business.
I don't want to throw that on anyone.
I've been through a lot in my life.
Ultimately, I realized that there were twothings that was keeping me from therapy.
(13:35):
One was that, I was really uncomfortableto talk about the things that have
happened to me in my life, andconfronting that and facing that.
And two, I was embarrassedabout needing therapy.
I felt like it was a weak qualityto want therapy or to need therapy.
(13:55):
But what would you say to someonewho feels embarrassed or is
struggling, or thinking, buthesitating about seeking therapy?
Michael (14:04):
Just visually, I'm guessing that I'm a little bit older than you.
In my time on this earth, I'vedefinitely seen it get better.
It, people are so muchmore open to it now.
It's so much more in themainstream portrayed in the media,
things like that talk about.
So just even that, we're in a much betterplace, but I think there's two things.
I think one people in general, evenif we need to change, even if there's
(14:26):
positive things that we can do.
We're pretty committed tostay, staying the same.
Like internally, like wereally what's a good word?
Homeostasis, I don't know if that'sa good word or not, but like,
just remaining in the same state.
For most people, there's that,that, that tug of war internally.
I'm just Oh, look, I reallyneed to do this different.
All of a sudden, thiswould be better for me.
(14:47):
And then I need to work on these things.
I need to improve in those areas.
But then there's that other part of methat's just Oh, I don't want to do that.
Let's just, this is, this is comfortable.
It may not be good, butit's at least I can know it.
So some of that is just the fearof I don't know what that would be.
Either just on a practical level ofwalking into an office, getting onto a
couch, or logging on to a Zoom or whateverto meet with a stranger and talk about
(15:09):
things that I don't normally talk aboutwith anybody sure, that's intimidating.
Even if rationally we knowthat might be better for us.
Again I do think the stigmas havegone down a little bit in general,
but yeah there's also that idea of it.
It's intrigued because I can'tremember the exact word you used
just a minute here, but it's likethe idea of being and the irony
(15:33):
there is oh, it's just the opposite.
Like it takes such strength towalk into somebody's office.
That's such a sign of strength andresilience and all of those things that
it's the exact opposite of weakness.
But man, practicing that vulnerability,asking for help, or just acknowledging
man, that can really help build upresilience and improve confidence
(15:55):
and all of those things that it'ssuch a good skill to practice.
All of the things that I wasfearing, it was just in my head
when I was just anxiety talking.
So I think really just steppinginto that fear is important.
The other thing too, I mean, I don'tthink you were alluding to this talking
about this kind of people's reluctanceto therapy is, is just also access.
(16:18):
It's expensive.
It takes time.
Depending on where you live, you Ido think like the push into different
platforms being available for peopleto just talk via distance, you know,
I'm in New Mexico, you're in Texas.
That, that's gone a long wayin terms of recruiting access
. Even in Austin, there's several organizations that offer low
(16:38):
cost access to clinicians.
Sometimes you have to be a littlecreative, about finding what the
thing that's going to work for you,but if you can lower those barriers,
that does a great deal for people.
Mica (16:48):
You mentioned earlier about people feel comfortable
staying in the same place.
Michael (16:54):
what I mean?
Mica (16:54):
It reminded me of a video I just watched yesterday with
Tony Robbins and Theo Vaughn.
Theo was talking about how it's hard forhim to say that he's proud of himself,
that if he wrote it on a wall and thatsaid, I'm proud of you, that it would
make him feel guilty for being proud.
That his normal reaction isto go back to those negative
(17:18):
feelings of self deprecation.
I'm this, I'm not that.
Tony mentioned because it feelslike home, and even though, it's
bad for you and that it's harmingyou and hurting you, it's still home
and you feel comfortable at home.
I figured out why it's sohard for me to ask for help.
It stems from my childhood about havingto figure life out for myself and
always having to get myself out of jams.
(17:39):
Even just a few weeks ago, I wastrying to get a baking dish at
the very top of our cupboards.
The things almost toppled on top of me andmy husband just came in, he grabbed it.
He's tall guy and he came and grabbed it.
And he goes, why didn'tyou just ask me for help?
And I was like, Oh, cause I gotthis ladder and I could have done.
And he's yeah, but it wouldhave been easier if you would
have just asked for help.
And I'm like, he's right.
It would have been easier.
(18:00):
I don't know, like, how do we get inthat frame of mind that it's easier
to ask for help than it would beto just figure it out for yourself.
I'm finding in the photographycommunity, it's hard for people to
reach out to another photographerand say, hey, I'm trying to get
into this industry and I don't know.
I don't know what I'm doing.
Can you help me?
(18:21):
Or reaching out to anyone andsaying, I just don't know what
I'm doing and I need some help.
Michael (18:27):
That goes back to the idea of, particularly like for self
employed folks , there is so muchidentity wrapped up into it, right?
I can remember starting out andwhat do you do, put a sign out?
Hope somebody like is walkingby that wants therapy?
I had no idea what I was doing and Iwas fortunate in that I had several
(18:48):
really good friends they were the onesthat kind of encouraged me to do it.
And I can remember calling them up atdifferent times and just saying the
next person that calls you, you needto send them my way . Instead of taking
them for yourself, you need to sendthat person to me because that was
the only way it was going to happen.
The internet was existing then, butit really wasn't, it wasn't anything
like it was now, and really it wasall about relationships and like I
(19:13):
didn't have a choice like it was likenobody's walking in the door, and so
somebody needs to just give me a solid.
And that's a really unpleasantplace to be you know.
To have to ask.
Our culture just reinforces thatidea of Oh, you just need it.
What is it?
Pull yourself up by your bootstrapsor whatever, that phrase that's
(19:34):
taken on a whole different meaning.
It is so unfortunate becausemost people are happy to help.
Most people are, and what agreat way to build relationships.
If we were all invested in everybodyelse's success, what a great place to be.
I would imagine, in the photography world,it's easy to get in that scarcity mindset.
(19:57):
If I had asked my friends to sendme the next person and they were
just like no, like they're mine.
So there's a scarcity mindset ofwe're competing against everybody.
There's this adversarial kindof position to take, and that
just further isolates us all.
It just makes it all harder.
So anything I think that we can do inour respective industries to reform those
(20:19):
relationships to be willing to like, sayHey I actually know something about that.
Let me help you.
Mica (20:23):
For sure.
There's a video thatArnold Schwarzenegger.
He had such a great messageabout how he got to where he
is because of all the help.
And I'm like, that is theperspective that we need more of.
That no one gets to whereverthey are by themselves.
I love that.
I want to take it to why is itimportant for photographers to
(20:46):
prioritize their mental health,especially when they're starting out.
Michael (20:49):
I think, especially the starting out period is it's, it's critical, right?
You're you're building afoundation of something.
That's something's gonnagrow and evolve over time.
It's not gonna look the same, but likethe foundation that you put is going to.
It's simple in terms of justlike, oh, it's really important
for you to be at your best.
If you're not taking care ofyourself and I'm gonna, I'm gonna
(21:10):
go off on a rant here, but like, thewhole grind mentality, I hate it.
I can't reference somebody that I'veworked with, but it's so unfortunate
that there's this mentality that youhave to somehow, what is grinding?
It's destroying, right?
You basically have to wearyourself out, in order to succeed.
It is, I would guess, maybe notthe number one thing, but it ranks
(21:33):
up there pretty high with folks.
That it ends up doing the exact opposite.
It is like such an impediment.
So often to success, because people areworn out, they're burned out, they're,
disillusioned by this thing, what theythought it was, but then they, they feel
like they've got to work seven days a week, or, they don't have good boundaries,
(21:56):
they don't maintain the things that, thatactually bring them joy and feed their
soul, for the sacrifice of the business.
And some of that is gonna happen.
Like I, I'm not naive to think that like,yeah, it's hard work and you've got to,
you've got to push yourself and all that.
But.
If you're sleep deprived, you'remore inclined to be anxious.
You're not going to havethat clarity of thought.
(22:17):
You're not going to organize.
Things that can fall through the cracks.
The number one thing mostentrepreneurs give up, is sleep.
Mica (22:23):
What are, let's say, three things that someone could be doing right now
to prioritizing their mental health?
Sleep being one of them.
I guess two more.
Michael (22:34):
There are some basics, the basics of like sleeping, eating, exercise.
Beyond that, it's a littledifferent, person to person.
For me, personally it's reallyimportant that I get out on
my mountain bike every week.
Because I just sit and talk topeople, throughout the week.
I read an interesting quote lastnight or saw it or something that,
(22:56):
that was basically like, if you workwith your mind, rest with your hands.
Isn't that great.
This idea of like doing opposites,like our brains in order to encourage
neuroplasticity, it's good tolike bring in opposing things.
Because I sit and talk to peoplethroughout the week, I try to be
really active on the weekends.
And that, that keeps me, I worka lot, but I think that really
(23:19):
protects me against burnout.
If I can get on my bike a couple oftimes a week, get out the mountains,
bust out the welder, fire up theforge, whatever those things are for
me, personally, those are the thingsthat kind of, kind of feed my soul.
Part of it is important for people toknow what those things are for them
and to recognize the value of them.
Intake questionnaire that I giveclients before I talk to them.
(23:41):
One of the questionsis what brings you joy?
And everybody lists stufflike everybody's got stuff.
Nobody has a problemanswering that question.
But when I actually talk to them andask them if they do those things like
the vast majority of people, those arethe first things people give up, in
pursuit of like making the business work.
(24:01):
And it's like, well, like if you'regiving up the stuff that like
really feeds you, that's just asimportant as sleep and eating and,
you know, those more tangible things.
If you give up the stuff that bringsyou joy no wonder you're depressed.
Go do those things.
You already know what they are.
You've got a list right here.
Go play guitar, go paint go dowhatever, play golf, it doesn't
(24:23):
matter what the thing is.
It's just important to do the things.
Mica (24:27):
I'm fully, fully, fully against the hustle till you drop, mentality,
mainly because I fell so far deepinto that and it just, it negatively
impacted all aspects of my life.
My friendships sufferedand my marriage suffered.
My business ultimately suffered.
(24:49):
I burnt myself out.
We're taught that things happenwhen you make them happen.
And I felt like if I'm not devoting allof my waking hours, all of my energy
into making this business work, and thenit doesn't work, that it's my fault.
I read a an Instagram post, liketwo, two years ago, two years ago.
(25:12):
Someone said that the time that you'respending watching your TV show is the time
that you could be watching a tutorial.
And if you're not doing that,then you don't really want this.
But that's really the mindset thatI really struggled with is that
if I'm not doing everything allhours, 24 seven to this business,
(25:33):
at least for the first few years.
And grind, work hard, lose sleep.
Don't hang out with my friends.
Don't do any of those things.
Dedicate everything tomaking this business grow.
And then when it's successful,then I can go rest.
Michael (25:45):
There is.
Always something more you could be doing.
And I do think this particularly forcreative folks, this is where like, it
kind of sucks to be creative becauseyou can come up with an endless
range of possibilities, endlessrange of things I could be doing.
Oh, what about this?
Oh, that'd be a cool idea.
And that never ends and it isboth a blessing and a curse.
(26:08):
Like it requires hard work.
I'm not opposed to people stretchingthemselves and you know, maybe
there are some sleepless nights,but they can't all be sleepless.
It can't always be about work.
And that's the really trickything for most people want
things to be pretty binary.
You like black and white, and it'sup to each individual to figure out
like where that line is for you.
(26:30):
And it's constantly moving,some weeks, some months.
Maybe you've got it in you,you don't like really push.
But you've also got to listen toyourself and get to yourself enough.
To where, you know, like, okay,it's time to just turn on the tv.
That's enough for today.
Mica (26:46):
It's this idea of you always gotta keep up with what's trending.
You always gotta adjustand adapt with the times.
There's no rest.
If you rest, then you'regonna be left behind.
Michael (26:56):
I think there's a whole lot more than just creative folks
struggling with that, right?
That's the pace, of society and life.
As just absolutely crazy as,as COVID was, there was this
forced kind of slowing down.
It was good for some people, a challengefor others, but, you have this external
(27:16):
thing where Oh, like I can't help.
I can't go anywhere,it's not even my choice.
What's the creativity, if you don't allowspace for allowing yourself to be bored.
That's where creativity's born.
That's the birthplace of it.
Mica (27:29):
People don't know how to be bored anymore.
Michael (27:31):
Go be bored.
You've got to allow yourselfto be in that place.
That's not comfortable.
Mica (27:36):
I guess when you're a kid, it's easier to be bored.
Your parents tell yougo find something to do.
And you're like, okay.
But as an adult, you're likewhat can I do to occupy this?
Michael (27:44):
Something that I do intentionally is sometimes I'll just
leave my house without my phone.
I intentionally just leave itbehind every once in a while.
I am the weirdo in the barber shopthat is not looking at his phone.
Like I will just sit there and do exactlywhat you do I can smell the aftershave.
I can hear the buzz of the clippers.
Maybe I feel the sun coming throughthe window on the back of my neck,
but like being in the moment.
(28:05):
Just being present.
Restaurants are great for sensorykind of stuff, but anything you can
do to just activate any knowledge,pay attention to your senses.
We always have them with us.
It's a great practice.
Mica (28:16):
My husband, he's very like, disciplined with his
phone and keeping it away.
When we moved in together, one of thethings that he did not want whatsoever
was our phones in our bedroom.
And he's like, there's a spacethat we can put that, and I'm
like but I need the alarm.
What if there's an emergencyand someone needs to call me?
(28:37):
And what if we need to call 911?
You mentioned something earlier thatjust stood out to me about anxiety.
My photographer friends talk about howthey never experienced or they never
remembered experiencing anxiety to thatlevel until they became freelancers.
I myself didn't realize that everythingthat I was experiencing was anxiety.
(29:01):
My question is, what are some commontriggers for anxiety and burnout that
photographers can identify early?
What can they do when they feel that?
Michael (29:10):
I'll start with the second part first.
People don't like this idea, but likefighting against anxiety trying not to
be anxious often just exacerbates it.
Part of addressing anxiety is one,it's really great to put a label on
it because then you know what it is.
Whether it's physical manifestationof symptoms or ruminating thoughts
(29:33):
or whatever, just being able tolabel it as Oh, that's anxiety.
And there's my old friend, andit really does require just like
some acceptance of Okay, I guessI'm going to feel anxious today.
It's just a feeling.
It's just chemicals.
It's just electrical impulses.
When you push against things, theytend to just take root even stronger.
I think that would be number one is,and it's way easier for me to say
that than actually do in practice,but just the acceptance of the anxiety
(29:58):
can be really actually helpful.
Again, like the goal islike not to eradicate it.
Anxiety can be really productive.
Anxiety can make sure wepay our taxes on time.
Anxiety can keep us fromwalking out in front of a bus.
It's a useful, helpfulkind of thing sometimes.
So the more you can just recognize Ohyeah, like I'm doing something scary.
I should feel anxious about this.
(30:19):
That's a normal kind of response.
It's to be anything scary, andthe trick is just to keep doing it
You do it in spite of the fear.
You don't let the anxietymake the decisions for you.
It's a long term ride.
It's there, but it's not worth the show.
That's where therapy can really help.
Mica (30:36):
You mentioned earlier about.
accepting that you're feeling anxiety,accepting you're experiencing an emotion.
What does that look like whensomeone identifies it and accepts
it and can move forward from it?
I guess what I really mean toask is, what should they do?
After they accept it to helpthem move forward from it?
Michael (30:58):
Grounding kind of things.
That the sensory stuff thatwe were talking about earlier.
Can be really helpful.
I tend to be a little bit closed off as aperson, although my friends would call it
a loof I've over the years developed thispractice of, a lot of, apparently a lot
of stuff happens to me at grocery stores.
I go into the grocery store, youknow, inevitably the cashier is going
to ask you how your day is going.
(31:19):
It's almost always going tohappen in the grocery store or
convenience store or whatever.
And.
I had to kind of challengethis aloof part of me.
I've made it the practice oflike, I will answer that question.
I'm not going to sit there andlike for 30 minutes, like dump on
somebody at the grocery store line.
I'm not going to hold up theline or anything like that.
But like, I'm going togive an honest answer.
And part of that is like, I stop andjust kind of check in with myself.
(31:43):
How is my day going?
I'm just going to give an honest answer.
And if I'm feeling anxious aboutsomething, I'm going to say, you know
what, like I'm actually feeling a littleanxious today, or I'm having a great day.
Whatever it is, I'm justgoing to get an honest answer.
Anxiety, like thrives in the darkness.
The more we try to appear not anxious,the more we try to pretend it's not there.
(32:04):
Like it just, it really likes that.
And so just a simple acknowledgement.
You don't have to be at the grocery store.
It could be with a friend.
It could be with whoever.
But being able to just saylike, I'm feeling anxious today.
That's another part of that acceptance.
Mica (32:18):
Something you touched on earlier that ties in with the
acceptance of feeling an emotion.
It reminds me of a conversation I hadwith my therapist, Sarah, hello, Sarah.
She mentioned that it takes, about 10seconds to really feel an emotion and
to experience it and go through withit and come out the other side of it
(32:39):
and that often most people don't takeeight seconds to experience something.
If they're experiencing anger orsomething other than joy and happiness
that they just push that down.
You have just these group of folks whohave pushed down years and years of
anger, sadness, discomfort, whatevernegative emotion there is out there.
(33:02):
They just either don't take the time tofeel it, and therefore they can't move
past it, or they just explode with it out.
They're like a little time bomb.
You never know when it's goingto happen, when it's going to go.
And so that's why I'm like, wondering,what does acceptance look like?
And how do you move past that?
Because to feel it and accept it is great.
To move on from it is justequally as hard as accepting.
(33:26):
This is just an example, let's say youhad a bad experience with a client,
with a photo shoot, and that was just anunpleasant experience and you don't know
how to deal with the feelings that camefrom it or how it came about or resulted.
And so you take that energyinto your next shoot.
(33:46):
And in some ways, I don't want tosay sabotage, but you place what
happened with that client ontowhat happened with the current
client, and you never move past it.
I really think it's because peopledon't take the time to process
what happened, accept it, and sayif I find myself in this situation
(34:07):
again, then I can take it on.
But just because it happened that timedoesn't mean it's going to happen again.
Or just because this happened doesn'tmean it won't happen over there.
Michael (34:17):
Yeah.
Totally.
Totally.
Reactivity is automatic.
It just it happens.
It becomes really important to recognizelike, not all clients are difficult.
Yes, that one was, and even takingthe idea of like acceptance, even a
little bit further of just recognizingwhen you're going into the new client,
recognizing like, Ooh, I'm feeling that.
(34:37):
I know where it's coming from though.
Like it's coming from there and not here.
That may not make it go away,but like really being able to
differentiate, between, a trauma thathappened, and the present moment.
And it's really important to bringyourself back to the present in that
moment, just like, okay, that sucked,but this is not that, and that,
(34:59):
that takes place on relationships,whether any kind of, area of life.
That stuff seeps in and that's just,I think part of the process of life is
being able to differentiate between allthe things that we carry around with us.
I don't know.
I don't know that we everreally get rid of those things.
The things that suck,yeah, that, that happened.
(35:22):
And that's real.
And it and the feelings associated withthat may be around for a really long time.
But learning, to remember that, oh,we're not in that timeline anymore.
We're in this one.
And you didn't use this word earlier,but you kind of alluded to the concept,
I think, of just compartmentalizing.
And it's not always a bad thing.
(35:42):
Sometimes we need tocompartmentalize stuff.
The trick is it's alwaysgoing to find a way out.
Nobody's as good at compartmentalizingthings as they think they are.
It's going to find a way out if you don'tgo back, revisit it, acknowledge it,
accept it, do the stuff, in the moment.
There may be times where thatis a useful, helpful skill.
(36:03):
Yeah.
I just got to get through this thing,but then it's important to go back and
make sure either with somebody else orjust on your island, you're doing some
kind of processing of the thing becauseit's going to seek more than the other.
Mica (36:16):
I only have one more question, if there was one message that a creative
needed to hear, right here, right now,what would that message be for them?
Michael (36:30):
That's a good question.
I can't, I don't know that I can do one.
There's two things thatare coming up for me.
One would be what you bring intothe world is so very important.
Whether it's photographsPoetry, music, or dance.
It is just the heart of being human.
(36:54):
And so I would just say like, Thank you.
That would be my number one.
My number two would be take care ofyourselves, Because without taking
care of yourself, there is no craft.
There, There, there is no work.
That's vital.
if you're not taking care ofyourself the work just isn't there.
That'd be my two things.
Mica (37:12):
The taking care of yourself.
That one just right in the heart.
Man.
Oh my gosh.
I want to keep talking toyou, but I know you got that.
Oh,
Michael (37:23):
minutes,
Mica (37:23):
snap.
So then we really gotto wrap this baby up.
Where can the listeners find you andfollow you and are you accepting patients?
Michael (37:33):
In the spirit of keeping my life simpler, I only have a website.
There's no social media.
Again, going back to the idea of selfcare and there is an endless number of
things that small business owners can do.
I've tried to really keep my lifesimple by just relying on that.
So they can think of my website.
It's my name, Michael Hilgers,followed by the letters, lpc.
(37:55):
com.
So that's my website.
My schedule is really full.
And honestly, from like 2015, whenthe world started going a little wonky
most therapists I know are pretty full.
So on my website, it does saythat I'm not taking new clients.
People reach out to me anyway, if I can'thelp them, I typically try to lighten
(38:16):
them up with somebody else that can.
There's a lot of good resources out there.
I don't encourage people to wait.
If you need to talk to somebody, youcan find you somebody, there are tons
of good therapists in this world.
And so in the spirit of helping othersand not being in that stinger shooting
mindset, I'm happy to refer people out.
(38:36):
People can still reach out tome if they want, even though
it says that on my website.
That's the easiest way to get ahold of me.
Mica (38:41):
And you also I was reading some of your blog posts and I
found that to be such a great
resource as well.
Michael (38:47):
Yeah.
There's just some tonsof good stuff out there.
I've worked pretty hard atbuilding some good resources up.
So appreciate you.
Mica (38:59):
Michael, I thank you so much for being on the show.
Michael (39:03):
Thank you for having me.
It was, this is, this is a fun.
I really enjoyed it.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.