054: We Eat Together with Skyler Burt

Ever wondered what it really takes to make it as a food photographer? Are you curious about the behind-the-scenes magic, the challenges, and the unglamorous realities? Well, get ready to have your questions answered and your curiosity satisfied!

Skyler Burt: The Honest Voice of Food Photography

In this episode of Savory Shot, I had a raw and real conversation with Skyler Burt, the brilliant mind behind the "We Eat Together" YouTube channel. Skyler, a seasoned photographer and educator, didn't hold back.

A Deep Dive into the Heart of Food Photography

We delved into the nitty-gritty of the food photography world: the gear, the constant learning, the fear of not being "good enough," and the need to adapt to an ever-changing industry. But we also explored the deeper side of things—the passion, vulnerability, and courage it takes to put your work out there.

Skyler's Journey: Lessons Learned and Shared

Skyler shared his own journey, the highs and the lows, and offered invaluable advice for both aspiring and seasoned photographers. We talked about finding your niche, building authentic client relationships, and staying true to your creative vision.

Tune In and Get Inspired!

If you're ready to get a behind-the-scenes look at the world of food photography and hear some honest, heartfelt advice from a pro, this episode is a must-listen. Head over to [podcast platform] to tune in.

Embrace Your Creativity and Let Your Passion Shine

And remember, as Skyler wisely said, "It's really not the equipment you have; it's how you use it." So, go out there and create, experiment, and let your passion shine through!

 

💬 Join the Conversation

Savory Shot Shownote: https://micamccook.com/guests/skyler-burt/

Website: https://micamccook.com/podcast

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Would you like to be a guest on the show? Fill out the guest form, and we'll be in touch soon.

Special Thanks

And before we wrap up, a huge shoutout to our sponsor, Flodesk, for supporting this episode. Don't forget to check out their email design services tailored for food photographers, and enjoy an exclusive discount just for our listeners!

So, are you ready to turn your limitations into your greatest strengths? Tune in now, and let's embark on this creative journey together. After all, the best masterpieces often come from the most unexpected places! 🚀✨ Get 50% off your first year by using the code: SAVORYSHOT50 Visit Flodesk now

Episode Transcript

Mica (00:00):
Welcome.

(00:01):
to the 54th episode of the SavoryShot, a podcast about the art and
soul of working in food photography.
Y'all know who I be.
I'm your host with the most Mika McCook.
I'm a food photographerbased out of Austin, Texas.
I wanna start this show off bysaying thank you for being here.

(00:25):
If this is your first timejoining us, welcome to the show.
Welcome to what I like tocall the Hot Mess Express.
And if this is your54th time, welcome back.
Thanks for showing up.
Last episode, we went on a wild ridewith a discussion all about feedback,

(00:46):
that love hate relationship we havewith it, from feeling stung by criticism
to embracing it as a growth tool.
We covered it all.
So if you haven't listened tothat episode, it's a must listen.
So, Get to it.
But let's talk about today's episode.
We're in for a treat, and I'mgonna get right into it, y'all.

(01:10):
We're chatting with Skylar Burt.
He is a food photographer, educator,and the creative force behind the
YouTube channel We Eat Together.
He's a legend in the food photographyworld, known for his practical
advice and down to earth approach.
Skylar's journey is,it's inspiring, y'all.

(01:33):
He started in photojournalism andtravel photography, but his passion
for food and cooking eventuallyled him to food photography.
He created the We Eat Together channel tofill a void he saw, a lack of accessible
resources for budding food photographers.

(01:54):
Y'all in our conversations, Skylershares his insights on everything from
gear and technology to the importanceof hobbies and personal projects
and evolving as a photographer.
If you are looking for some real talkabout what it takes to make it in this
industry, then this episode is for you.

(02:17):
But before we get into that, makesure you hit that follow button
so you never miss an episode.
And if you're feelinggenerous, leave a review.
It really does help the show.
It helps more people discoverthis little podcast of ours.
So grab your coffee, your wine,cocktail if it's been that kind

(02:37):
of day, and let's start the show.

(03:47):
I mentioned to you before we startedrecording how I got into food photography.
Your channel We Eat Together wasone of the channels that I watched.
And one of the videos that I loved whereyou did a shoot with a 20 dollar light.
And I thought that was really coolbecause at the time I did not have any
kind of budget and I thought I haveto go buy all of this crazy expensive

(04:12):
equipment and I'm like, how on eartham I going to afford all of this?
Your videos taught me.
That A, you can build as you go and B, youcan work with so little and get so much.
It just made me think outside of the box.
So I'm really glad that you'rehere and I'm very excited.
So thank you again for being on the show.

Skyler (04:33):
Thanks for having me.
it's funny you mentioned that video.
I appreciate you watching the videos.
That's really cool.
That is actually one of my favoritevideos because it's my mantra to food
photography for just starting out.
If you're a beginner food photographer,I think it goes for any photographer.
I think the first thing that ifyou're like getting into photography,
the first thing you think about is.

(04:55):
Okay, now I need all this stuff, I needthat stuff, I need this lens, and it
all costs a ton of money, how am I evergoing to do this, and really if you have
a camera, if you have a lens, that'sprobably the first standard that you need,
and then you can just build up from there.
And not be so worried aboutgetting everything perfect.
Especially, I think it's the trendnow not to really be perfect.

(05:17):
I liked that video.
That was a long time ago.
Wow.

Mica (05:20):
Five years ago.
Five, six years ago.

Skyler (05:22):
That's like centuries in YouTube time.
Yeah.
That was just a halogenlight from Home Depot.
But it's really notthe equipment you have.
It's really how you use the equipment,the technique and stuff like that.
If you're going for that kind of foodphotography, the limitations to cheap
gear you'll quickly run into as yougo along your journey in photography.

(05:43):
But if you want to start out thatway, then you know, that's perfect.
It's a double edged sword because Ialso believe that you should buy, if
you're buying equipment, buy the cheapstuff, buy stuff that'll last forever.
Which, a lot of the camera thatI'm recording myself on or that you
see right now is 10 years old and Ihaven't changed it, but it was a great

(06:06):
camera and it's still a great camera.
There's some dead pixels, I'll change itout here in the next couple of years, but
I guess my point is really, buy gear onceand then use it for as long as possible.
Cause you're going to buy tons of gear.
There's like light stands, there's softboxes and there's lights and wheel stands
and every little doodad and gadget,you're going to have thousands of it.You

(06:29):
know, thousands of pieces of gear.
So you want to make sure that you're notconstantly rebuying a bunch of this stuff,
especially if you want to make any money.

Mica (06:40):
As a photographer gets further in their career how do
they know what equipment to reallyinvest on and what's okay to buy
the generic brand or something?
I remember in photography school,they told us, lenses absolutely.
You can buy that used your camera body.

(07:02):
You might want to invest in something new.
But I know that everyone hasdifferent opinions on that.
So how what's your opinion on that?

Skyler (07:10):
I don't know.
I personally would like to have mycamera and lenses new because that's
the most crucial part of the puzzle.
It all depends on whatkind of photography you do.
You know, like somepeople like the artistic.
Style of really old lenses,like film lenses and stuff.
I love it.
So yeah, I would buy those kinds of lensesused, but if it's for professional use,

(07:32):
you might want to get yourself a setof prime lenses that are really nice.
And that you're going to useas your workhorse lenses.
They'll get you your standard image,nothing really artistic, no crazy
lens flare or, haze to it or whatever,but yeah, you can play around with
other stuff, in your test shoots.

(07:56):
But if you're wanting to becomea professional photographer.
You're going to have theset of gear that you use.
As test shoots to build your portfolioor to try stuff out in the studio.
And that stuff doesn't have tobe the top of the line stuff.
But when you do a professional shoot,most likely you're going to rent the gear.

(08:16):
If you're doing like a professional studioshoot or a commercial, you're going to
need a lot of gear that you can't afford.
And so you're gonna have to rent that.
And then you might findpieces that you use often.
You can buy those and have it part ofyour kit if it makes sense, and you want
to use it a lot to get familiar with it.
So when you go on set you don'thave to fumble around with it.

(08:36):
There's a couple of pieces.
Like I often use this like dollyslider that is a professional dolly
slider that you would see in movies.
And it comes with tracksand stuff like that.
I've used it a couple of times ofcommercials and every time I rent it, I
have to spend like a half an hour fiddlingaround with it to figure out how it works.
I'm doing this cause it actuallyhas a PlayStation remote control.

Mica (08:58):
Really?

Skyler (08:59):
Yeah.
And so it's not somethingthat I have in my studio.
I use it only on the commercial shoots.
And, so it is something that I would,if I had the budget, I'd love to buy
it that way I could practice with it,in my studio, but I guess, as you go
along, you'll figure out what you need.
Because when you get a brief from aclient and they want you to do this

(09:21):
impossible shot, you'll go, okay, Ineed this and this to make it work.
The specialized lens or thishigh end light that's really
powerful or something like that.
And then you'll start to realize, Ohmaybe I need that, in my studio to do
test shoots with, or something like that.

Mica (09:37):
Oh, yeah.
I do what you said aboutusing equipment repeatedly.
I tell people don't sleep on that,that Nifty 50, that 50 millimeter.
I use that for so long beforefinally buying two additional lenses.
And really that's in my kit my,my macro by 24 to 70 and my 50.

Skyler (10:00):
For food photography, it's three lenses.
It's a wide lens, like a 24or 35 or something like that.
The 50 and a hundred millimeter macroand everything else is up to you.
You can get your personal flair.
One of my favorite photographersthey use the probe lens as
a still photography lens.
And they get some really cool,like wide angle product shots.

(10:22):
That's helpful.
Video is a whole different monster.
You're going to want a probe lens.
You're going to want probably some cinemalenses especially if you're using follow
focuses and tracks and stuff like that.
For photography, that's nifty 50, ahundred millimeter macro and like
a 35 or a 24 or something like that,or the 24 to 70 is a good lens to.

Mica (10:46):
I know a photographer who only uses prime lenses.
They're reasoning behind it isthey're like, if I feel like
you should move your body.

Skyler (11:01):
Yeah.
I only use primes as well.
And I do use my zoom lens.
If I know I'm going to be takingportraiture, and I want to zoom in and
out to get a good composition cause youdon't really know what's going to happen.
But in still life it's really the primes.

Mica (11:18):
The primes are it, they're it.
When I started, I thought I'm goingto have a whole library of lenses.
And then I realized pretty quicklythat I don't need all that.
It's expensive, but really justboil down to, I don't need all that.
All my needs are met.

Skyler (11:36):
Yeah.
You get weighed down by theamount of gear you have to.
It takes up space.
I have a whole closet thatis packed filled with gear
that I don't regularly use.
It's great to have it when you need it,but it becomes annoying after you do
it for 10, 20 years, you're like movingaround all this stuff that is 10 years old
and you're like, I don't want to throw itaway, but I haven't used it in 10 years,

Mica (12:01):
It's because as soon as you throw it away, you're going to need it.
That's how it always works out.

Skyler (12:05):
Worse than a photographer too, because you hold onto like
scraps of paper and cardboard andrandom stuff, plates and dishes.
You're like, what did I needthis scrap of paper for?
I can't remember, but I thinkit's going to be useful one day.
It's going to be useful.

Mica (12:20):
And the day it is useful, it's ah, vengeance, you know, I've been yes.
I want to ask you about the halogen videoand We Eat Together YouTube channel.
You did an interview you talkedabout how you were a teacher, you
were educator, you were teaching Ibelieve travel photography and that

(12:43):
you started teaching food photographybecause it's so hot outside and food
photography is mostly an indoor niche.
And so I'm wondering, wasthat the foundation of How
We Eat Together came about?

Skyler (12:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
My wife and I traveled around.
We lived in Korea for a couple of years.
We worked doing stockphotography for a lonely planet.
Then they sold the Getty.
And so I guess a lot of my old stuff,a lot of our old stuff is with getting
now lost in the archive somewhere.
But then we moved to the Middle East.

(13:19):
We lived in a country called Oman.
And we became photographyteachers at a university there.
I was teaching advanced photography,which was studio lighting.
Portraiture and stuff like that.
As well as they previously from theprevious teacher they had assignments
where they went outside and didsome kind of travel photography.

(13:42):
However, the students wouldcomplain all the time.
There'd always be an excuse of why theycouldn't get their assignment done.
And one of the big ones was,Oh, it's hot outside teacher.
And so I decided I I've alwaysbeen interested in studio
photography and food photography.
Even before I decided todo travel type photography.

(14:04):
So I decided this is a perfectopportunity to learn more about
it and to teach it as well.
Even if you're not interested infood photography at all, you end up
learning a lot of the lighting patternsthat you would use in portraiture or
in pretty much every other type ofstudio photography or videography.
You learn how to create soft light,hard light, you learn light distance and

(14:29):
all that good stuff that you would usein all the other types of photography.
So it was easy for the students to doall they'd have to do is bring in some
fruit or vegetables or, buy a dish fromthe local restaurant and they could,
they could have something to photograph.
So subject was also an issue in theMiddle East where they had a hard
time finding good subjects for theirphotography, especially for portraiture.

(14:53):
And so finding subjects to photographwith food was a lot easier.
They could buy a bottle, do productphotography or food photography.
And in teaching, it became, I becamea lot more knowledgeable about it
because when you teach something,you really study it and you become

(15:13):
more educated yourself in that topic.
Just an act of having to findresources and stuff for your students.
I noticed you had ChristinaPeters on your podcast and she was
actually one of the first kind ofexamples of food photographers that
I would share with my students.
So it was before she even had ablog, it was just her website.

(15:35):
And then she started the whole,the blog and stuff like that.
It's funny cause her name keeps coming up.
But yeah, she she was one of the firstpeople I taught to my students as an
example of what food photography is.
But then I got interested in myselfand started to take it professionally.
Or take it more seriously and work at it.

(15:56):
But I wasn't really doing foodphotography professionally until
I came back to the states becausein the it's not necessarily true.
Okay.
I wasn't doing it for advertisements.
I was doing it for hotels and resorts.
When I was living in the middleeast, I was working professionally
for photography, doing photographyfor advertising agencies there.

(16:18):
But it was more portraiture ortravel type based portraiture.
Where we do tourism type ads andphotography and stuff, but they didn't
really have any kind of clients for food.
But there was like some resortsthat, that I was able to work at.
And my wife was with medoing that too, as well.

(16:38):
After we started doing that, Iwas thinking it'd be really cool
to start a educational blog.
We just had our first daughter.
And so I was, we were thinkingof names and I was we're
thinking like We Eat Together.
It was a cool name cause we like to cookand we like to eat together as a family.
So yeah, that's how it got started.

Mica (16:57):
I'm so glad that it started.
I think it's really cool that it comesfull circle with Christina Peters because
there are those photographers that whenyou get into this world, you hear similar
names, Penny De Los Santos, ChristinaPeters, Joanie Simon, you, and, Andrew
Scrivani, of course, and you just startto become familiar with these educators

(17:21):
who are paying it forward in my opinion.
So, you studied photojournalism.
You did travel photography.
What was it about food thatreally intrigued you and made
you go, this is a career.
This is something that I could really see.

Skyler (17:40):
I’ve always been interested in food.
I love to cook and it'sa hobby passion of mine.
Traveling around, we got to eat abunch of different types of food.
It was always the highlightof wherever you're traveling,
whatever country we were in.
It's like, Oh, let's get the foodof their culture and try new things.
And buying travel magazines orfood magazines from those countries

(18:02):
that would display the beautifulphotographs of the local cuisine.
It was always really inspiring.
And being a photographer,I was like I could do that.
And I guess that kind of that kindof attitude of, I can do anything.
I could do that Really gave me a pushto try it out for myself and realize
how horrible I was at it at first.

(18:23):
It was awful.
I could definitely not do that.
But then I got better, you know, Ijust like dove into it and studied
all these photographers likeChristina Peters or even Penny later
on after I had already started.
It was weird cause I startedin about I think 2008 or 2009.
So a lot of the educationalthing around food really

(18:45):
hadn't picked up at that point.
I remember when I started my YouTubechannel, I couldn't find any food
resources, and this is actually,okay, to segue into why I started
WeEatTogether is that there, orthe educational portion of the food
photography is that there was reallyno resources for food photographers.

(19:06):
And when I was trying to teach mystudents how to do it, I couldn't
find material myself to learnhow to do it online, at least.
There was a couple of photographersthat had one off videos where
they'd show a shoot like a behindthe scenes type of thing, but there
wasn't really this is how you do ittype of content that there is now.
Maybe I could, bridgethat gap or whatever.

(19:27):
And so that's why I startedthe We Eat Together Channel.
I started, I like posted one videoor something like that, and then I
don't know, five years or six yearslater, I posted my second video.
But yeah, that's why I got into theeducational portion of food photography.
I love education.
I'm fascinated by learning andteaching people how to do something.

(19:51):
It's really a fascination of mine.
I liked that portion of photographyas well, because I think it's one of
those niches where people really want toteach no matter the subject they're in.
There's some people that just,they hate it or whatever.
They hate teaching.
They hate speaking.
They hate the whole thing, but I thinkthe vast majority of photographers love

(20:14):
to show the new thing that they figuredout and share it with everyone for free.

Mica (20:18):
It's like showing that child something new and just
seeing how they light up.

Skyler (20:26):
Yeah, I think, just photographers love to share, I remember when digital
first came out, looking at the back ofyour camera, they would call it shimping
to be like, Ooh, look what I just shot.
And you show it to everyone on the backof your screen that's about this big.
But it's just inherent in photographer is.
Every photographer is youwant to see all my pictures?

(20:48):
Every shot that I evertook since I was a kid?
Let me, we only met five minutesago, but yeah, let me show you for.
I guess it extends to teachingtoo, as well as let me show you
this new thing I just learned.

Mica (20:59):
With managing your YouTube channel and balancing it with
your photography business.
How do you juggle thoseresponsibilities and what keeps
you showing up for We Eat Together?

Skyler (21:15):
I don't.
I am the worst YouTuber on the planet.
I think it's been about three monthssince I posted the last video.
I love to post YouTube videos, but I justhaven't really been able to find a groove
ever since I started YouTube where I canconsistently post new content every week
or twice a week or something like that.

(21:35):
I have a plan
and my plan is that I'm going to startjust filming my portfolio shoots.
Cause I'm working on anew portfolio right now.
And I'm spending time doing that I do alot of client work that keeps me busy.
So pretty much everything in lifeprevents me from making a YouTube video.

(21:56):
And that's my excuse.
So yeah, I don't balance it at all.
I wish I could say that, yeah I'm greatat this, but I'm horrible at balancing
YouTube and professional photography.
yeah.

Mica (22:08):
You know I find that answer to be so incredibly refreshing because
I don't know how many interviews I'veseen out there where someone will say,
oh, I just meditate in the morning,or some bullshitty answer like that.
And it's like, okay maybeI should go meditate.
And then I'm like, I'm stillnot juggling everything.

(22:31):
Someone asked me like, howdo I manage the podcast?
How do I do food photography in addition?
And I told them unless I havehelp, something's going to suffer.
That's just the truth.
When I devote my attention to thepodcast, that means things are
slow in my photography business.
And so I can, do testshoots and things like that.
But when I'm working, then thepodcast suffers because I'm working.

(22:55):
Unless I hire someone who can takecare of those responsibilities for
me there really is no juggling.
I do what I can when I can
and the rest will happen there.

Skyler (23:06):
I'm just grateful for anyone who watches my videos because I know it's,
they've been like holding on for a longtime and I get comments, Oh, welcome back.
We thought you died, which is, tobe fair, it's probably accurate.
I used to give myself the excuse of ittakes me a long time to make a video and
I want to make sure it's really good.
So that's why people have to wait.

(23:26):
But in reality, I just, I can'tjuggle both and you're right.
Unless I hire somebody which Idon't make any money on YouTube,
so I can't afford to hire anyone.
But yeah, you're right.
If you focus on one, the otherslows down and vice versa.
I try to do YouTube when I can.
I've been trying to make it as simpleas possible to where, if I can film just

(23:48):
what I normally do on set doing a testshoot or something like that, then maybe
it'll come out easier, but the amountthat I want it to be perfect, which
I know it doesn't have to be perfect.
It's like the antithesis of YouTube,but when I go to film a YouTube video,
I want to make sure it looks great.

(24:08):
The edits perfect.
And then it ends up taking sixmonths and I forget what I'm
even filming at that point.
I actually have five videos that arelike three quarters of the way done that
I don't even know what I was filming.
If I go to back to look at themnow, I probably wouldn't be able
to remember what I was doing.
And then I run out of harddrive space and I delete it all.

(24:30):
But YouTube is weird, it's definitely.
I don't know how deep youwant to go into YouTube.
But if you look at YouTube, likephotography, I think a lot of
photographers after the pandemic,their viewership kind of nosedived.
There's some that I have a huge followingso you can't really see the nosedive,

(24:51):
but if you see the previous videos beforethe pandemic, it looks like there's a
huge kind of nosedive and a lot of theYouTubers that I followed took a break.
I think maybe after the pandemic peoplejust, they wanted to get back to work.
They didn't have enough time to sit aroundand watch YouTube videos all the time.
So I think it's a trend across the entireindustry of, for at least photography.

(25:14):
And also with photography, Ithink a lot of content that gets
produced now is shorts and reels.

Mica (25:21):
That's true.
I mean, I still feel likethere's an audience for that.
I'm a slow learner.
So if you try to explain something to mein three minutes, I'm not gonna get it.
I need you to break it down.
It needs to be a 20 minute video.
I need to know the deets.
Those cooking videos I find to beso deceptive, and made me think,
Oh, I could make croissants.

(25:42):
And I didn't realize the amountof time and effort that went into
making croissants, and I'm like,yeah, I'm not doing all that.

Skyler (25:49):
Roll, roll roll.

Mica (25:50):
Fold.

Skyler (25:52):
Oh, there's a magical croissant.
Yeah.
It's just I didn't, I totallydidn't cook that 20 times to
get it perfect for on camera.
Yeah.

Mica (26:00):
Exactly.
Exactly.
There's a YouTube channelthat I love and follow.
It's called Peaceful Cuisine.
I tell people who go to watch it.
I'm like, do not watch this if you're ina rush, because homeboy takes his time.
It's beautiful.
It was ASMR before it was a thing andhe keeps the background music very low.

(26:21):
So it's just there, but really the soundsthe textures of everything that he cooks
it's very therapeutic, but this is likea 15, 20, 25 minute video, but I'll sit
there and watch it all day, every day.
But there will always be a communityfor it, but I, I like what you
said about, how people wanted tojust get out after the pandemic.

(26:44):
I realized that a lot ofpeople's mental health kind of
suffered during that period.
And so now they're justlike, I want to be out.

Skyler (26:52):
It's also a very, I think a lot of YouTubers have spoken about this.
It's a very lonely existence.
There's you and a cameraand that's about it.
For the vast majority, if you really,are doing it full time as a YouTuber,
you're by yourself pretty much 90 percentof the time, unless you have a team.
But if you're just talking to thecamera, it's long lane stuff like that.

(27:12):
You have to get out and do stuff,but with the pace at which you have
to produce content, that seems likeit's just to get out of the studio
or wherever you're filming yourself.
It seems like you're always constantly inthat headspace of making your next video
or putting out your new piece of content.
There's always something that you'refailing to keep an eye on, keep

(27:35):
control of, and so it's very stressful.
And in trying to increase your businessas a photographer, I'm having to
keep marketing and build clients andget new shoots and stuff like that.
And that takes a lot of time to do.
Test shoots and shoot my portfolio andreally dedicate my time mentally to that.

(27:56):
It's hard to think about making a videowhile you're trying to do that as well.

Mica (27:59):
Oh, for sure.
For sure.
What keeps you coming back?
You've had this YouTube channelfor years and with all the
challenges that you just listed.
What keeps your foot, whatkeeps your toe in that pond?

Skyler (28:14):
Pride.
I feel like I owe it to the verylittle audience that I have left.
I enjoy making a video and I enjoygetting comments and answering comments.
And I enjoy whatever Ican with my audience.
Sometimes I feel like I'll bethinking about a topic and I'm
like, people need to know this.

(28:36):
This would make a great video.
Not because I think it'll get greatviews, but because I think it's good
information that people need to hear.
Yeah, that's, I guess that's whatkeeps me coming back and making videos.
But in the same sense, like my favoritevideos that I've done, or at least
the topics that I think are the mostimportant ones get the least amount

(28:57):
of views or little to no views.
That's disheartening.
I'm like, you wish morepeople would hear it.

Mica (29:03):
That makes a lot of sense.
What I hear you saying is, you'rehere to serve and people who are here
to serve it's not what can you dofor me, but what can I do for you?
That's, how I feel verymuch about the podcast.
I love that that's what keeps you here.
Sometimes find myself when I Googlesomething or search for a YouTube video,

(29:24):
I find I'm putting the limits, like thesearch, the filter limits of, I want
to, I want a video that was, posted 10years ago because I know the people who
knew what they were doing were actuallyposting and I don't know, these want to
learn how to do this in five seconds?
That just throws me off.

Skyler (29:43):
I, that's, that is tough because yeah, the whole quick,
quick, like five, five second videoor whatever, or 30 second video
of let me teach you this thing.
One of my favorite YouTubers rightnow is Scott from Tenal studios.
Do you, have you seen this channel?

Mica (30:01):
Yes, I have.
I have.

Skyler (30:03):
Has he been on the podcast yet?

Mica (30:05):
Yes, not.

Skyler (30:06):
Oh, you should have him.
You should invite him.
He has the YouTube channel that I wanted.
He says all the stuff that I was everlike too afraid to say cause I feel like
I would alienated people, but he reallyjust tells it how it is, especially
concerning professional photography.
He doesn't really get into thetutorial so much but he dives into

(30:29):
more deeper concepts about, whatit takes to be a photographer.
His videos are all under 10 minutes,but it's definitely not like a this
is how you do a thing in 30 seconds.
He stays away from that.
Yeah, that's a good channel ifyou want to learn about being
a professional photographer.

Mica (30:44):
What have your students and viewers taught you about yourself?

Skyler (30:48):
Was it taught me about myself?
I guess it, it's really if we'rejust talking about the the YouTube
channel, it's taught me that there'sreally not enough information
that you could ever give somebody.
I guess the best form of education wouldbe to learn directly from the person.
Because you would get all those littleinsights that you can't share on a

(31:11):
video, or there's just simply nottime or the person making the video
just can't think about every littlepiece that a person might learn.
But it's also taught me to bemore humble about my own work.
I think photographers get into a grooveof I can do this thing really good.

(31:34):
And then they plateau.
And so being part of this spaceand looking at new work all the
time from other creators and to seewhat's trending and stuff like that
is really pushed, my art forward.
Everyone's generally kind on YouTube.
I know people really talk badabout the YouTube comments section

(31:56):
and they can be really mean there.
It's true.
But, they're also reallysupportive and really kind.
And when they give you even ifit's a simple note on your video.
Hey, your audio is terribleor something like that.
It's coming from a,generally a good place.
I think, maybe I'm a little naive on that.
People like to talk poosin the comment section.

Mica (32:15):
I assume that the mean comments are bots and they're
just there to start an argument.
I look at how people comment and I'mlike, okay, that's a genuine real comment.
That sounds like person.
That sounds genuine and then I'll seeone where it just sounds so ridiculous.
I'm like, okay.
I don't believe you're a human.
think you're a bot.
I don't know those are just there tolike entice arguments, I assume but.

Skyler (32:38):
Maybe what I was trying to say is there's a lot of comments
that let you know that you're notalone in what you're experiencing.
So like sometimes I'll talk abouta topic and then I'll get comments
of I have that same experience.
And I'm like, Oh that's great.
I thought maybe I was the only one,and I think that's really important.

(32:59):
That's another thing I was talking aboutScott's channel is he'll talk about
a lot of things that he experiencesas a professional photographer.
And I'm like, Oh, he goesthrough that stuff too.
So I'm not the only one that hasthree clients a year or something
like that, and I thought I wasn'tdoing enough or whatever but maybe
he's not doing enough either, likeit reaffirms that it is not just you.

(33:22):
And so sometimes people will sharein the comment section what they go
through or what they have problems withand you go, oh I never realized maybe
I should, make a video about that.

Mica (33:33):
I went to a commercial photographer happy hour.
This year has started off on theslow note for me and I thought,
man, I'm not doing enough.
I'm not working hard enough.
I'm not marketing myself,like just not doing enough.
And this happy hour, we spent a goodchunk of the hour just talking about
how it's been generally slow for us all.

(33:54):
It felt like a release.
I love that you said that about justthat community and not being alone.

Skyler (34:02):
Yeah.
The photography communitycan be really harsh.
Cause there's camps and thenthere's everyone else who doesn't
even know those camps exist.
In the camps it can be really toxicespecially concerning gear or whatever.
Oh, you shoot Canon.
That's horrible.
I shoot Nikon's way better.
But then there's everyone elsewho's just really nice and

(34:24):
encouraging and stuff like that.
But I don't know if it's really taughtme anything about myself other than
the fact that I never can do enough.

Mica (34:32):
What do they say?
There's never enough hours in the.

Skyler (34:34):
There's enough hours in the day.
So there you go.

Mica (34:35):
Yeah.
Even if the day was extended from 24 hoursto 28 hours, it still wouldn't be enough.
That's like the biggest thing isaccepting you can't do everything and
not everything's going to get done.
How do you feel about the future of foodphotography and with these new tools that
are becoming available to photographers?

Skyler (34:58):
I guess let's start off by saying I don't know much about it.
I'm not an expert in it.
I really haven't seen all that it can do.
I've tested it out myself just in Adobefor an hour or something like that.
But so I'm not really knowledgeable.
So if I say anything and peopleare like, Oh that's not true.

(35:18):
I don't know anything about it.
Just from my knowledge offood photography, I don't
think it's going to take over.
A lot of people are afraid.
It's going to end photography.
They said that about 3D.
They said that about stock photography.
I'm sure there was something before.
They

Mica (35:32):
Said that about art.

Skyler (35:34):
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
When

Mica (35:35):
The camera.

Skyler (35:36):
Came out.
Yeah.

Mica (35:37):
This is Satan's work.

Skyler (35:39):
Yeah, I don't think it's gonna be a world ender for photography.
It might for some genres, if thosephotographers don't utilize it like
3D did with product photography.
If you learn how to use the 3D software,you can still do that genre of art, and
you can still do product photography.

(36:00):
It's just there's a lotof 3D out there now.
But with AI,
from my small short time testingit now, I think it's a few
decades away at this point.
I know everyone's Oh, it's incredible.
But I wasn't able to getany kind of perspective.

(36:21):
Like proper perspective.
I used it in Adobe to mask out andreplace something with something else.
But it didn't look good.
It didn't even look possible as a photo.
And so I think we got a ways to gobefore you can take a cup and change
it into a different style of cup.

(36:41):
You can do it, but it won't lookgreat because they just don't
have the source material there.
Maybe if some a group of millions ofphotographers were to dedicate their
time photographing every known possibleobject and then they would upload that
to the AI, then it would probably bescary, a lot scarier, but think about

(37:04):
making a pizza shot from in front ofthe food, there's perspective issues.
There's depth of field issues.
There's lighting, which to be fair,it is pretty fantastic with relighting
subjects, that's pretty cool.
And adding reflections where theyshould be, which is interesting,
but I don't know how it does that.

(37:25):
Just getting that properperspective on the pizza.
Or whatever it is, it just doesn'tlook good and they don't have
the correct pizza that you want.
So yeah, I don't think it's 100percent there with food, at least.
Unless we're talking about what theaudience expects and that's where

(37:47):
I think it becomes scarier is,what does the audience react to?
If the audience reacts to AI positively,then you might start seeing ads that
are created solely from AI because theaudience likes that kind of content.

(38:07):
And the reason why I say that I wasactually thinking about it earlier
when you brought it up is usergenerated content wasn't always a
thing in advertisement, but now it'sthe word UGC, the acronym is thrown
around pretty much all the time.
And it's become commonplace where 20years ago, you would never hear it.

(38:29):
And so I would say if that happens to AI,where the audience goes or the creative
directors or art directors go, we wantsome AI stuff, people love AI stuff then.
Yeah.
Then you have a scarymoment where traditional
photographers go by the wayside.

(38:50):
What happened to studio photographerswhen UGC content or user generated
content became popular, they studiedall their lighting for 20 years.
They got everything perfectin their photography.
And then all of a sudden the trend shiftedto where lighting doesn't matter anymore.

(39:11):
Great backgrounds don't matter.
Anything that they previouslyspent their life dedicating to
mastering doesn't matter anymore.
That even includes food photography.
So if that happens with AI,then, yeah, then it's scary.

Mica (39:26):
You mentioned just now about about what will keep someone working
or in this industry, if they're willingto adapt and be flexible and be a
chameleon and be like water, if you will.
I went to a panel discussion at Southby Southwest and they talked about

(39:50):
where the future of food media isheaded with AI and just in general.
One of the panelists said that whatincreases your chances of longevity
in this career is not being marriedto one way of doing something.
I mean that just rangthrough my head as truth.

(40:15):
I'm like, yes you can't be married toone way of doing things because you could
just wedge yourself out of a career.
That's why if there'san app, I'm trying it.
If there's a software, I'm trying it.
Anything that will make iteasier for me to do my job.
But it is a little bit of a gray areawhen it comes to food photography,

(40:36):
especially if it's a brand or arestaurant saying, yeah, this is
our food and it's an AI image.
And someone goes to that restaurant andthey're completely disappointed with what
they see because the images that theysaw on their website falsely advertised
what they were actually going to get.
I guess it circles back to expectations.

Skyler (40:59):
I think there's two points to that.
One is currently that would be, Ibelieve, illegal for restaurants
to do, at least in America and theUK, I think has even stricter laws.
America, at least there was a lawsuitthat just happened two years ago
or a year and a half ago now withBurger King for misrepresenting their

(41:23):
Whopper, the size of their Whopper.
Somebody decided that theydidn't like how Burger King was
photographing their Whopper.
But I don't know how that case turned out.
I just saw that the lawsuit got started.
So with AI, that would be anissue as far as misrepresenting

(41:43):
the product on the menu or on thepackaging or something like that.
Photographs are already aninterpretation of reality.
I don't know how deep you want to gowith that thought process, but everything
that is in a camera is captured byan artist and then artist chooses to
compose it the way they compose it.

(42:04):
And the entire story could be notbased in reality, depending on how
the artist wants to interpret thatphotograph, they could compose it away.
They could use an aperture or ashutter speed that could completely
bend reality and lighting as well.
Or editing.
And I think people get caughtup on the whole editing.
Oh, it's once you cross that thresholdin the dark room or in Photoshop,

(42:27):
then you're distorting reality.
It's there's a whole lot ofdistortion that goes on before
you even reach Photoshop.
And it didn't always be likethat, it wasn't always that way
with commercial food photography.
There was a lot of distortion of realityon set when Photoshop didn't even exist.
And I think there's a trend.
I know.
I don't think there is a trend incommercial photography where they're

(42:51):
going more towards natural, especiallywith editorial style food photography.
They're even using real ice cubes.
So there's that trend.
And I liked that trend.
That actually what inspired me to dothe work that I do is, I wanted to
make it all natural as much as I could.
It's just like, where is that line ofreality to not, like a lot of food styling

(43:15):
is to bring life back into the food.
If you were to photograph it as it isin reality, it wouldn't look as good.
Even if you're just doing minimalbrushing of highlights on a
hamburger or something like that.
Brushing some oil or spraying itwith water to make the water drops
or something like that, even thatis a misrepresentation of reality.

(43:37):
Now in the the Burger King case with theWhopper, the patty was too big or too
small, or it's too big in the photograph.
It's not that big in reality.
It's tough because I've never worked onBurger King or McDonald's, but I've seen
the behind the scenes on McDonald's.
Has a great video on YouTube, actually,of how they do the burger photographs.

(43:59):
A lot of people thinkit's faked, but it's not.
It's just the perfect bun out of a set ofa hundred buns that they have laid out.
It's the perfect patty out of the25 that they cooked and then they
style it to make it look great.
It's not squished into a cardboardbox with all that steam melting
everything by the time you open it.

(44:21):
So it's the perfect representationof that burger pre boxed and
they make it look really good.
And then to go on to, to defend BurgerKing a little here, I'm not sure about the
photograph that they're speaking about,but I can assume maybe they're using a
wider angle lens, which would distort thesize of the burger of items in a photo.

(44:42):
Make them look larger, depending onwhere they're placed in the camera,
it could look bigger or smaller.
There is that distortion ofreality and wherever that gray
line is, it's up to the viewer.
What the audience orconsumers will accept.
If they accept AI then great.
We all have to learn how to use AI then.
I'm currently making a new portfolioright now because I feel like I, as a

(45:08):
photographer didn't change with the times.
I didn't grow.
I perfected and further perfected whatI do and then further perfected it.
But it's all still generally the samething and I was just taking a look at my
portfolio and I love all the photos init, but I feel like they're all old hat.

(45:30):
Where maybe I could try something new andreinvigorate my style and reinvigorate
my outlook towards photography.
I think if you don't do that as aphotographer, then yeah, you become
stagnant and you'll lose clients.
You won't gain new ones and you'll becomea little jaded and maybe a little angry.

(45:52):
And you'll sound like the angry old manyelling at the young kids or whatever.

Mica (45:57):
Say, back in my day.

Skyler (45:58):
Yeah, exactly.
And on the photography forums.
I just personally, for me Ijust grew bored of the type of
work that I'm putting out there.
Not that it's not good.
It's great for the type of workbut it's just not exciting to me.
It's not something new for me.
To talk about that point,there's two sides of that one.

(46:19):
It's whatever the audienceis going to accept.
And two, it's always great to changeas a photographer and learn new things.
If you're a product photographer,I'm sure learning 3D software.
If you didn't do that, you wouldbe losing a whole host of business
that, that you could have.

(46:40):
But as a food photographer, if youdon't follow the trends, you could
definitely miss out on a lot ofclients which I've experienced.
I think everyone experiences it.
They even have a, the name for it.
It's popular in photography.
I don't think it was used for that,but the Dunning Kruger effect is it's.

Mica (46:56):
What's?
I'm not familiar with theDunning Kruger effect.
But.

Skyler (46:58):
It's where you learn something and then you think you're
the best at whatever that topic is.
And then you realize it's just a peakand there's a whole nother mountain
that you can't see from your peak.

Mica (47:10):
I've met photographers who, you know, like when we're talking
about stop motion and just addingmotion cause I had mentioned that I
wanted to incorporate more motion andI feel like I'm super behind on it.
One photographer in particular, theywere like, what am I a videographer now?
Like I studied photography.
I don't want to learn motion and all that.

(47:31):
And I said to them, that's fine.
That's wonderful.
Whatever you choose to do,just be okay with that choice.
I often wonder why somephotographers are just so resistant
to trying something different.

Skyler (47:45):
You say to yourself as the photographer, you
go, I'm getting clients now.
And they obviously likethe stuff that I do.
I have no fear of losing clients, but thenthey'll suddenly ask you to do video.
And you're like, I don'tknow how to do that.
I want to gain as much skillsas I can, whether it's in stop
motion or video or photography ordifferent styles of photography.

(48:07):
I want to gain as much skills aspossible because when a client reaches
out to me, the first thing I'm goingto do is go, yeah, let's do that.
And hey, let me upsell you on someother skill that I have that you
might, you're not asking for right now.
I can do it if you want it.
It works.

(48:27):
Sometimes they're.
like, yeah, we've been wanting tohave some video and I'm like, great.
I'll put that in the estimate.
I see it as a way of being ableto offer different things on
your menu as a photographer.
Have a menu of stuff that you can do andbe able to offer your clients multiple
things other than just the one thing thatthey might be reaching out for you to do.

(48:51):
That way you can upsell them.
Maybe it comes up on set wherethey're like, Oh, it would be awesome.
If this was actually instead of thisvideo, maybe we could do a stop motion
or something like that to make it alittle bit more interactive or whatever.
And you can go, yeah, I can do that.
No problem.

Mica (49:10):
I also wonder if it's just fatigue.
It is really hard to be a freelancer.
It's hard to be in this industry andyou're constantly learning new things
and trying to stay ahead of everything.
That's where you can have thatconversation with yourself.
If this is somethingthat you want to learn.
If it's going to make my lifeeasier as a photographer.

(49:32):
Like I'm just a forever student andjust eager to learn wherever I can.
I feel like when people losethat that that desire to learn
that's where they stagnate as acreative and as a professional.

Skyler (49:46):
I look at it also as just being able to service your clients in a way
that they didn't know you're capable of.
I was on a shoot doing a pizzacommercial and it was just a video shoot.
They wanted to get the shot of a pizzabeing made and my first thought is
this is going to take a long time.

(50:07):
It takes, a lot of time todecorate a pizza with pepperoni
or whatever, and they're like youcan just speed up the footage.
So why don't we record the wholething, speed it up or whatever.
And so then I told the clientyeah, we could do that.
Or I could do a stop motion of it.
And it would look a lotmore fun, stylistic wise.
And it would be unique becausenot a lot of other companies

(50:29):
do that for their commercials,and they really love that idea.
If I didn't have that skill, then Iwouldn't be able to offer that to them.
Then I would miss out on thisopportunity of really making
my client happy at that moment.
The more like skills you have in yourtoolbox, the more you can provide
to your clients when they don't knowthat they even want those skills.
I really, I like to work with clientswhere I have input as well to the

(50:54):
whole creative making process.
We'll have a pre productionmeeting or something like that.
And they'll be like, okay,this is what we want you to do.
We want you to do this shot and that shot.
And do you have any suggestions?
And then that's when I really enjoyed it.
Come in and be like, allright this is my take on it.
Yeah, we could do it like this, butI could also, bring the camera around
and, Do this kind of motion or lightit like this or something like that,

(51:17):
or bring up the fact that I can dostop motion or something like that.
And sometimes it's winners and sometimesthey're like, no, you're crazy.
The last thing I want tosay is I can't do that.
That'd be horrible, from my perspective.
And so if you're constantly asa photographer, keeping yourself
from doing things for I don't know,pride or something or whatever,

(51:40):
then I think you're really doingdamage to your professional career.
You're not sticking with the times.
I hate that term because photographers,motion pictures, it's photography,
but with video and stop motionor whatever, creating gifs.
These are all like under thephotographer's belt and if you don't

(52:01):
know how to do these then learn becausethat's what it takes to be a photographer.
Not just now.
It's always been that case.
Maybe before it's always been thatcase since digital came to the,
came to the forefront, but I wouldsuspect that even before digital.
Photographers would probablyget clients asking them if
they can do video too, as well.

(52:23):
So I wasn't around as aprofessional photographer.
I grew up in the film era, but Iwasn't a professional photographer
then but I'm sure if you'd talked tosome people, they'd be like, yeah,
I've gotten asked a bunch of timesto do video, and they pulled out
their camcorder and their DB tape.

Mica (52:39):
Oh, the camcorder.
But yeah you're spot on.
So I, I want to finish thisinterview out with talking about
photographers and how they can developrelationships with their clients.
You mentioned that earlier about how youlike to work with clients where you have

(53:03):
input and say in how the shoot turns out.
So how do you turn a first time clientinto a repeat client where you do
have that input and you do that, havethat established trust between them.
How do you go about that?

Skyler (53:20):
It's difficult to answer because when you start shooting with clients,
you'll quickly build a complex of, Ihope they like what I just delivered.
Especially if they're a brandnew client and this is the first
time you're shooting for them.
If they don't respond great job, likewithin the first five seconds of you

(53:45):
pushing submit, you'll sit there andthink that they hated everything you
just produced which could be true.
It's really difficult to answerbecause that doesn't ever go away.
It just happens whenever you have a newclient, at least for me, I don't have the
self confidence to say that everything Iproduce is great and they should love it.
And so I shouldn't be worried about it.

(54:06):
Every time I have a new client, assoon as I turn photos or a video in
or whatever, the next couple of days,until they affirm that I did a good
job, I will be on the edge of my seat.
I'll be at home talking aboutit to no ends annoying everyone
around me until I hear that theyactually like the work or whatever.

(54:27):
But things you can do to ensure thatthey'll call you back is one, provide
them more than what they're asking for.
And you can do that by simplytaking a couple of extra shots
or saying, Hey, I have this idea.
If there's time at the end of the shoot,maybe we could do a shot like this.

(54:48):
And when they see it and they like it,they'll be like, Oh, this guy's awesome.
Or this person's awesome.
They really took care of me.
Two is do the post production asfast as possible and get it to
them as, as quick as possible.
And that really build trustbetween you and the client.
The assumption that I get all thetime is the question I get is can

(55:11):
we have a fast turnaround as ifthere's any other sort of turnaround?
And my response is always, yeah,no, I was planning on having this to
you in a couple of days or whatever.
Doing that and saying that andbeing honest and then honestly
delivering on your promise isreally helpful for building those
relationships with your clients.

(55:31):
Don't take on jobs thatyou know you can't do.
There's like the wholefake it to your make it.
That can really cause problems ifyou're faking let's say a commercial
shoot and you don't actually knowhow to do a commercial or work
your camera or something like that.
And that's maybe extreme or whatever,but there are some promises that
photographers love to make andit ends up ruining the shoot, not

(55:56):
speaking from experience or anything.
But the best case is just to berealistically honest with the client
and say, this is what I can do, anddon't promise anything outside of
that small box of what you can do.
And if they say, yeah, that's great.
Then you deliver on that and youdeliver it quickly and efficiently.

(56:16):
But also manage the shoot.
Shoots are chaotic and there'sa lot of people talking to you.
So figure out a structure to managethe shoot to where it's a little
less chaotic and that'll just makeeverything seem to run smoother.
And the client will be like, wow, thisperson has control of the situation.

(56:36):
As the photographer, you're moreof the director of the operation.
You are in control of the camera.
You're in control of allthe wires on the floor.
If there's other people you're incontrol of their time management, so
you really have to be the manager orboss of the whole situation, and you
have to be communicative with the clientand be like, is this what you want?

(56:59):
Are you sure this is what you want?
And then you get that feedback,that instantaneous feedback.
They say, no, it's not good.
Then you have, correct it.
And don't have any kind ofprima donna attitude towards.
This is how I would shoot it.
You got to keep the client happy and yougot to make those corrections and provide

(57:21):
them with what they want, their vision.
Those are really helpful forkeeping clients happy and
wanting to return to you.
It's just to be easy to work around,have everything that you can.
Operate smoothly.
I have my assistant, my really goodfriend, and he's also my producer
and he's also a buffer between a lotof people and me when we're on set.

(57:46):
So I've cordoned off by him and he'llanswer questions and field questions.
And so that keeps theshoot running smoothly.
Is now there's two people, answeringquestions and managing people on set.
But you don't need two people.
It's just, you need to communicate whileyou're shooting and get out of your

(58:08):
creative space just a little bit to beable to have peripheral vision of the
whole entire thing and how it operates.
And also remember, the experience islike a it's like a play in a lot of
respects, and they are the audience ofthis live performance, your client is.

(58:32):
So everything you do on set from the, thecameras, the lights, to how you set it
up, they're all, they're watching, notjudging, but they're watching because
one, they're probably interested in it.
They're creatives too.
And two, it's entertaining.
So if you're really like frazzledon set and you're having issues,

(58:57):
that's what they're just watchingit like a television show.
That's not going to bring themback to see that you're not
in control of this situation.
So it has to run like a like a play, awell fine tuned organized performance.
I remember back in the day a lot ofphotographers, it was a joke is that
they would bring not just the stuff, theequipment that they need, but they would

(59:19):
bring like extra stuff and set it up butnever use it just to impress the clients.
Because of the performative aspectof the shoot, it would make them
look like more professional, a lot ofphotographers still make this comment.
I like oh, that, that camera.
The client won't feel like that camerais good enough or something like that.
So they use a Hasselblad or somethinglike that because they think clients

(59:43):
will, Oh, that's an expensive camera.
You must take really good pictures.
Oh, look at all theselights you have set up.
These pictures are going to be fantastic.
There is that performative aspect to it.
Maybe not so much in the factthat your client cares what camera
you use or what lights you use.
They don't, they justcare about the results.
But the per the idea psychology behindit of them watching the shoot and

(01:00:08):
going, oh yeah, this guy's, everything'sflowing, everything's moving smooth.
He's on time.
He is getting great images.
This is all, this is fascinating.
You want to make sure that thatyou are running a tight ship
and the show is going smoothly.
And that comes with pre productionplanning, even test shoots that you might

(01:00:30):
do in the studio before that prior to theshoot to make sure that you've actually
photographed something like this before.
You've actually lit it before, theworst case scenario is to come to
a shoot and have never photographedwhatever you're photographing that day.
It happens, I've done it myselfwhere it's I'm a food photographer.
I'm not a photograph.

(01:00:51):
I don't know, this hamburgeror something like that.
And I've never photographed a hamburgerbefore, but I'm sure it's, it's food.
I can do food.
And then you quickly realize inabout five seconds that you don't
know what the heck you're doing.
So then you're fumbling aroundgoing, you're trying to make
something up and that is visible.
And that can be seen.
So you wanna make sure that you have atleast photographed the food before and

(01:01:14):
you have some creative bank to pull from.
Whether it's, as far as setting up yourgear to the compositions you're making,
to the lighting that you're using.
It's all up here.
You've done it before, you'verehearsed it, and now the
show is gonna be a good show.

Mica (01:01:32):
I love that you referenced theater.
I always tell people, go talk to a stagemanager, talk about running a show.

Skyler (01:01:40):
Yeah.

Mica (01:01:41):
A good stage manager knows everything that's happening all at once.
They run the crew.
Go talk to a stage manager, go watch them.
The stage manager is the buffer betweenthe actors, and the crew and the audience
and the director in some cases, andthey just make sure that shit happens.

Skyler (01:02:02):
That's exactly what my producer does.
He does the call sheet.
He gets people there on time.
He helps organize the shot list, whatshots are going to happen first, what's
next, and make sure it flows and thateven something as simple as ordering
the shot list can be quite complicatedbecause maybe there's cook times, maybe

(01:02:23):
there's camera movements that take time toset up, organizing that makes everything
run smoother and to have somebody likethat, even if it's just your friend or
somebody that has never done it before,it's more helpful than not having anyone,
or trying to switch brain hemispheresfrom creativity to productivity.

Mica (01:02:47):
You mentioned earlier about hobbies and I want to
touch in on that very briefly.
Is it important for photographersto have hobbies or interests
outside of their work?
And if so, why?

Skyler (01:03:03):
Yeah, I have a whole video.
This is actually my favorite videoso I have a whole video on this.
If you want to go watch thevideo later after the podcast.
Basically it's the easiest wayto find your niche in photography
is to find something that you'reinterested in outside of photography.

(01:03:23):
A quick story about when I was in college.
I had a classmate in college and hewas a rock climber just outside of
photography, he was a rock climberand we're all learning photojournalism
together and how to take picturesand all that kind of good stuff.
And then he started turninghis camera towards his passion,
which was rock climbing.

(01:03:43):
Photography was like a secondarypassion, he's thinking about getting
a job and going to college and stuff,but he really loved rock climbing.
So once he turned his camera towardsrock climbing, he started making
some really nice pictures froma perspective of a rock climber.
He quit college within thesecond year and started working
for a rock climbing magazine.

(01:04:04):
And we were all like, this is crazy.
How did he do this?
The reason why he did that isbecause he was passionate for
something outside of photography.
If you talk to any professionalphotographer, they're
like, what's your passion?
It's usually it's for thesubject that they photograph.
Car photographers arereally interested in cars.
Basketball photographers arereally interested in basketball.

(01:04:27):
They're less, there's less interest inphotography than they are the actual
subject that they photograph and that'swhy they photograph that subject.
I'm really passionate aboutcooking and not just cooking.
I really love fine dining and I reallylove like the chefs and the whole cooking
the food and learning all the intricaciesof the flavors and combinations of flavors

(01:04:52):
and pairings of foods and the beverageside of making mixology and cocktails.
I love all that kind of stuff.
I watch cooking shows all the timeand that really inspired me to turn
my camera towards food photography.
I did travel and stuff but I didn'treally have a, other than the fact
that I'd like to travel, I didn't havea connection to travel photography.

(01:05:16):
And so I didn't really make great work.
And I did this video and it's interestingbecause a lot of the comments I got
were, Oh, this is awesome advice.
But then I got a lot of commentsthat I knew I was going to get,
which was you're lucky because youlive in America or something like
that, that you could do such a thing.
Most photographers have to be multi genreor whatever to make it as a photographer.

(01:05:40):
If you truly have no passionfor that subject you have to
really, it's all or nothing.
It's I'm going to live homeless,or I'm going to make it with
my camera doing this thing.
And that's the kind of attitude that youhave to have, no matter what the genre is.
You could be a portrait photographer.
You'd be a wedding photographer.

(01:06:00):
You can be whatever photographer, butit's really there is no other alternative.
It's either this, or I'm going to gowork at Starbucks or something like
that, because I have no other skills.
So anything else, just saying,oh I'm going to be multi genre.
Because I don't really haveam confident enough that I

(01:06:20):
can make it in a single genre.
That's just it.
You're not confident enough and you'renot willing to jump off the ledge.
You're too hesitant that's my opinion.
If you don't pick a genre you'll end upa wedding photographer, but it's more
tongue in cheek because it feels that way.
It could be that with food photographyyou don't pick a genre you end up as

(01:06:42):
a food photographer because you thinkthat is the easy path to making money
with a camera, but what you reallycare about is making money and you
just want to do it with a camera.
There's a difference between I want tomake money with a camera and I want to
make money as a food photographer oras a wedding photographer or as a rock

(01:07:03):
climbing photographer, it's passionof the subject before the camera.
Once you have that you don't careabout what gear you use or the camera
you have, or all this gear stuff haslittle consequence to your photography
because what you really care aboutis that genre and making the best
images that represent that genre.

(01:07:23):
And then you have like as I'mdoing a service, I'm representing
this genre with my art, versus I'mjust taking pictures or whatever.

Mica (01:07:32):
What I wanna close the interview out with is what do you hope the
listeners gain from today's episode?
If there's one action that they could dotoday for their photography, for their
business, what action would that be?

Skyler (01:07:49):
If you are in a genre already and you're building up clients or you're
doing your first jobs or you're trying toget your name out there, spend more time
marketing than you do actually shooting.
I guess we didn't touch on thatsubject, but, really photography
is 80 percent marketing and 20percent actually photographing.

(01:08:13):
Maybe there's 10 percent editing andpaying the bills and stuff like that.
But a huge portion of it is marketing.
Don't neglect it.
You really just have to bite the bullet,send those emails out to get clients.
Then always just try to keep fresh,try to freshen your portfolio
up with new images, new styles.

(01:08:34):
Try out and experiment.
It's fun to experiment and it'sfree to experiment, so always try
to experiment as much as possible.

Mica (01:08:44):
Oh, I love all of that.
Where can the listeners find youand follow you and support you?

Skyler (01:08:52):
They can go to my Instagram.
We Eat Together.
Underscore We.
Eat.
Together underscore.
Or they can find me onYouTube, Skyler Burt.
My portfolio skylerburtphotography.
com.
You'd see my work there.
My latest work there.

Mica (01:09:08):
Well, Skylar, thank you so much for being on the show
and oh man, this was awesome.
So thank you.