January 15, 2025 • 33 mins
Feeling Stuck in Your Creative Business? You're Not Alone!
Ever feel like you're pouring your heart and soul into your creative work but still struggling to make a living? Like you're stuck in a tug-of-war between your passion and the practicalities of running a business?
In this episode of The Savory Shot, we’re delving into a topic that's close to the heart of every creative entrepreneur: building a sustainable business.
Meet Tamera, Your Business Fairy Godmother!Tamera Darden is not only an amazing photographer, but she's also a business mastermind. She's the founder of Darden Creative, the author of The Photo CEO, and a total pro at helping creatives like you thrive!
What We Explore:- Why "done" is better than "perfect"
- The power of "no"
- Networking without the ick
- Negotiating your worth
- Owning your time
Tune in to The Savory Shot and get ready to be inspired by Tamera's wisdom and practical advice. It's time to ditch the struggle and step into your power as a creative entrepreneur!
P.S.Don't forget to grab a copy of Tamera's book, The Photo CEO, and check out her amazing work at Darden Creative. You won't regret it!
💬 Join the ConversationSavory Shot Shownote: https://micamccook.com/guests/tamera-darden/
Website: https://micamccook.com/podcast
Instagram: www.instragram.com/mica.mccook
Instagram: www.instagram.com/thesavoryshotpodcast
Would you like to be a guest on the show? Fill out the guest form, and we'll be in touch soon.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mica (00:00):
Welcome to the 59th episode of The Savory Shot, a podcast about the art
(00:06):
and soul of working in food photography.
I'm your host with the most, Mica McCook.
I'm a food photographerbased out of Austin, Texas.
Y'all, welcome back.
It's been a hot minute.
It's been a long hot minute sinceour last episode the reason for my
absence, you can find out in episode 58.
(00:29):
So if you have not listened to that,pause this, go back, listen to it.
And then come back hereto finish out this show.
But before I do anything, say anything, Ihave to thank y'all, the listeners, thank
you for coming back for the returninglisteners, and for the new listeners,
(00:50):
thanks for giving the show a shot.
But I want to get right into it, y'all.
I want to talk about today's episode.
I am so excited to share this episodewith you because it's something that
I've been thinking about a lot lately.
I've been thinking about what itmeans to be in business, what it
(01:12):
means to be a working freelancer.
Am I considered working if I'mmaking money or am I considered
working if I'm actually doing thebehind the scenes to get the work?
I've been struggling about myrates and how high is too high.
(01:34):
I had a conversation with a producer.
I shared my rate sheet with him and heflat out said that my rates were too low.
And I'm like, what?
Earlier this year, I read thisfantastic book called The Photo
CEO and I enjoyed it so much.
I knew I just had to invite theauthor to appear on the show.
(01:54):
And luckily for y'all, she said yes.
So, without further ado, meetour next guest, Tamera Darden.
Tamara Darden is the founder of DardenCreative and the author of The Photo CEO.
She's a pro at creating bright,cheerful, and colorful beauty
(02:18):
and product photography.
In this episode, we talked about howto detach the art from the business,
why done is better than perfect,and how to rewrite the stories
you've been told about yourself.
So let's get into the show, grab yourcoffee, grab your drink, whatever
it is, relax, or grab a pen andpaper and let's start the show.
(03:15):
I want to start off by sayingI'm so excited that you're here.
I found you on LinkedIn and yourposts have just been keeping me going.
Keeping me alive.
They're so inspirational.
So like down to earth, like real advice.
Things that I really need to see and hear.
So I just wanna thank youfor being on the show.
(03:37):
So Welcome to the Savory Shot.
Tamera (03:41):
Thank you so much for those kind words.
It's very humbling.
You're just in a bubble a lot of thetimes when you're posting into thin air.
You never know who actually is goingto receive the message or read it.
Thank you very much for theinvitation to this podcast.
And thank you for the Instagram post,because that is actually how I found you.
(04:07):
You purchased the book, I self publishedon Amazon, which we'll get to later.
It shows you how many books you sell,but it doesn't say who, so you just
don't know who's purchasing your book.
It was really cool to see someonethat was not in my immediate circle of
friends buy a book and share their veryhonest review of reading The Photo CEO.
(04:33):
So thank you.
That means a lot.
That means my job is accomplished.
So thank you.
Mica (04:40):
I've told pretty much all of my photographer friends.
We're all just hustling, tryingto make a living at this.
And it's really tough to be a freelancer.
It's tough to find actual tangibleinformation that we can really use.
That's what I love about your bookthat it's direct to the point.
(05:01):
It's just real knowledge.
Let's get straight to the point.
I know you've got things to do, so thisis what information you need to know.
And I love books like that.
Tamera (05:11):
I wrote the book with the understanding that it will serve as a
guide throughout a photographer's career.
The way the book is broken down it issomething that you can look at certain
parts if you wanted to improve yourworkflow, or maybe you want to review
the pricing chapter again, like it'ssomething that you can continuously refer
(05:35):
back to as you are growing your business.
That's how I wanted thebook to be absorbed.
There's probably some sections of thebook that you look at more often than not.
And that's going to bedifferent for each person.
When I think about the decisions thatI've made throughout my career, one
of the questions that I ask myselfis what are the least amount of steps
(06:00):
in order to get to the end point?
It doesn't need to look pretty.
What are the least number ofsteps in order to get to the end
result that I am looking for?
Mica (06:11):
I love that.
I know that when there's like a thousandsteps involved into doing one little
thing, I can already hear in the backof my mind, that's not sustainable,
I won't be able to realisticallydo that on a long term basis.
So how can we dwiddle this down?
That's what I found so refreshing aboutThe Photo CEO is that the message that
(06:34):
"Perfection should not be the end result.
Done should be."
Your book from start to finishis useful, tangible things that
we can use and apply every day.
That's what I love about yourLinkedIn posts, the advice
you give, your newsletters.
As soon as I get a newsletter,it's the first thing that I read.
How do you use LinkedIn to connect withyour audience and what impact has it
(06:58):
had on your career and your business?
Tamera (07:01):
Thank you for the question and the kind words to be honest,
LinkedIn has not been my topsocial media platform of choice.
I just recently started utilizingLinkedIn again for the same reason
you are more likely to be incontact with decision makers faster.
(07:24):
When I first started my business, mymain platform of choice was Instagram.
Instagram was how I was able toreally showcase my work create
and develop my voice to promote myservices, really get your feet wet.
And it was the onlyplatform that I was on.
(07:44):
I talk about this in the book abouthow one does not need to spread
themselves thin being on five tosix different platforms at one time.
It's just not realistic.
And it's just not sustainable, especiallyif you are a solo entrepreneur, which
most of us are in this business.
So you have to find which platform worksfor you and just go deep in the paint.
(08:10):
A lot of the times people don't do that.
If you don't have KPIs, keyperformance indicators, or metrics.
That you can track yourselfto say this platform works for
me, or it doesn't work for me.
Instagram for a long period of timeworked for me because I worked it.
You can't really see thesuccess of a social media
(08:33):
platform until 12 to 18 months.
That is the marker.
With LinkedIn, I just recently decidedto commit to LinkedIn because of
the trajectory of my career today.
Also I believe there is a revenueor income barrier on instagram.
(08:56):
Especially the way that thealgorithm is set up right now.
I do believe that there is a plateauwhen it comes to how much money people
are willing to spend on services becausephotographers are service providers.
This is my first month in two years thatI am back on the platform, so I don't
(09:19):
have a lot of data to really say if it'sworking for me today or if it's not.
But what I do know is based offof the positive engagement and the
eyes that are seeing my content.
It's worth continuing to be on there.
I think the followup questionwould be how do you get over the
(09:45):
perceived perfectionism on LinkedIn?
And so I said to myself, if I'm going togo back on LinkedIn, I'm going to want to
show up as myself and win at this platformby being myself, showing my work being
consistent and setting up a frequencythat is sustainable and using the platform
(10:07):
to my advantage with the understandingthat I probably will not see booked
work, for another two months, right?
So three to six months.
Mica (10:19):
Something you hit on that really stands out to me is how you decided how
you were going to show up on LinkedIn.
There's this idea that you haveto be like this very stuffy.
Only post about your successes that youcan't be vulnerable on LinkedIn, that
it's very business attire and stiffupper lip and that's just not true.
(10:43):
It's a breath of fresh airwhen someone says, Hey, it's
been a rough couple of weeks.
I'm not booking work.
Is there anyone out therewho's also struggling?
Tamera (10:51):
People value transparency.
And there's nothing wrong with small talk.
There are so many people that arelike, Oh, I don't want small talk.
So then what the fuck arewe talking about then?
You want to know about my traumas?
That's for my therapist.
This is work.
That's the thing that people havea hard time separating the two.
(11:15):
And maybe this is a gift and acurse for me, but the ability to
compartmentalize, there are certainthings for certain scenarios, you have
to learn how to network effectively.
Because your network is your net worth.
People hear that phrase andthey think it feels icky.
(11:36):
No, this is real shit.
The only.
I wouldn't say the only creativething, cause that's not true,
but the act of photography.
So the actual picking up a camera,fixing the composition, adjusting
settings, pressing the photo, retouching,you know what that represents?
(11:59):
The percentage of that, whatthat represents running a
business like 10 to 15%.
The other 85 is actuallyrunning the shit.
If you do not have a clear understandingor do not want to embrace that
reality, then you may want to haveanother reassessment as to how you
(12:21):
want to see photography in your life.
You may say to yourself,this is too much for me.
So I'm just going to use this asa creative outlet where I am not
exchanging money for a service.
But if you are in this to run a business,to make it sustainable, to help you
(12:41):
pay your bills, to help you travel theworld, to help you share your story,
you need to run this like a business.
You need to network, you need to figureout what you like to do and choose
the marketing strategies and platformsthat's going to allow you to do it.
And also understand that thereis going to be trial and error.
(13:03):
There is no perfect template for this.
But the more you do it, themore data you have, and then
you're able to make adjustments.
But this is a long game.
This is not for play when peopleare like, "Maybe this is just me."
I've been in the business for solong, but sometimes people will be
like, when you think of photographydescribe photography in one word.
(13:28):
And people like, we'll say all ofthese very it's a breath of fresh air.
It is like shooting for the stars.
And I'm like, girl, this is my job.
I create beautiful shit.
Yes.
Absolutely.
And also, it is a way ofhow I sustain my life.
Mica (13:44):
In your book I touched on how photographers are so sensitive,
we have a hard time detachingthe art from the business.
My husband said something similar.
Cause that is something I struggledwith so much in the beginning.
I was like, how can Iput a price on my art.
This is my heart, my soul.
Aaron was like, that's all fine anddandy, but you are a business and
(14:08):
the government is certainly goingto treat you like a business, so you
need to conduct yourself as well.
It's just something that you haveto accept and be, be okay with.
You're in a creative career,but it's still a career.
Tamera (14:24):
People would gravitate towards it more if they realize that the beauty is
in combining art and commerce together.
It's one thing to conceptualize aphoto, but if you can also add commerce
behind it, you're golden, you're solid.
Being able to talk about yourart conceptually, but then when
(14:49):
it comes time to advocating foryour pricing and negotiating for
yourself, and you're able to do both.
You're unstoppable.
No one can tell you shit.
I was writing about this morning, actuallyfor a future LinkedIn posts about why
I wrote The Photo CEO, and one of thereasons is that when we hear the term
(15:12):
CEO, we have these negative connotations.
We are the ones thatassign meanings to words.
The Photo CEO is obviously it's anacronym for the framework, but also the
word CEO, when I think of it also meansself accountability and responsibility.
(15:33):
When you are exchanging tender withservice, you are responsible for
bringing your client's vision to life.
You are in service to the client.
No one gives a fuck about whatcamera you're shooting or my
camera was 5, 000 dollars.
(15:54):
That's why the price is the price.
No one gives a shit about that.
They want to know, do you have a niche?
They want to look at your workand say, I trust this person.
They are consistent.
I'm willing to pay them 10, 000 dollars.
Can you convince someoneto pay you 10, 000 dollars?
(16:15):
I'm gonna be honest with you,8 out of 10 people can't.
Mica (16:18):
Negotiating skills are so difficult.
Tamera (16:22):
I find it's difficult because, there isn't a level of detachment.
Because we get offended whensomeone says, we want this.
This is our budget.
I totally understand the differencebetween someone saying, I really love
your work, and this is our budget.
(16:42):
What can you work with?
And someone trying tonickel and dime you, right?
Those are two different things.
It's our responsibility tohave that discernment to
say, no this client ain't it.
We are not the right fit.
You should have your parameters beforeyou even go into a negotiation to
say, based off of these parameters,this is a yes or a no, right?
(17:04):
But negotiation is simply a conversation.
When you have your non negotiablesbefore any client approaches you, it
gives you a clearer understanding ofwhat you're willing to work with and
what you're not willing to work with.
If someone approaches you with abudget, and the scope of work doesn't
align, lower the scope of work.
(17:26):
Provide two different proposalsbased off of your budget, this is
what you can get, but based off whatyou really want, this is the price.
Give the client theopportunity to make a choice.
You may be surprised.
Mica (17:41):
They'll see that there are things that they didn't realize they needed,
and they're like Oh, oh well, I didn'teven take that into consideration.
Tamera (17:48):
And it gives you more autonomy, it gives you more control.
It's not just you in the passenger seat.
It is you in the driver's seatbecause you are the one that has
to compete at the end of the day.
Even if the project falls through Ijust learned something from this, I
just learned that I can negotiate.
Mica (18:09):
Photographers are afraid of negotiation because they're
afraid of saying the wrong thing.
One wrong thing can be the end all.
They run the fine line of wantingto appease them versus being
transparent about what theycould realistically deliver.
Tamera (18:29):
I wouldn't say it's scary though, maybe because rejection
is a part of this business.
If I'm saying that I want to make, forexample, even though this economy is trash
right now, but if I said that I wanted tomake a hundred thousand dollars for the
year and based off previous projects thatI've done I would need to book 10 clients.
That means I only needto convince 10 clients.
(18:52):
The issue with that is that because peopledon't look at their pricing and their
numbers, they have no clear understandingas to how many clients they need to have.
So every person that approaches them, youfeel like they need to say yes to you.
They don't.
So again, it's reframing it.
(19:12):
I don't think there's anythingwrong if the client is for me.
I can't say anything wrong,if the client is for me.
There are a lot of parameters thatwe just don't see that happens behind
the scenes on the client's end partof the decision making process.
It usually comes down to three things,timing and availability, whether it's
(19:33):
your availability or their availability,the budget, of course, right?
And what's the third one?
I should know this.
Timing.
Budget.
The main two are timing and budget, wecannot take those things personally.
Sometimes it just doesn't happen.
Every client is notgoing to be a good fit.
Mica (19:52):
No, doesn't mean no forever.
It just means not right now.
Tamera (19:55):
Yeah.
And it's absolutely okay.
Because what it does is just,it opens up the space for you
to reach out to more people.
I think what I want to get acrossto people is that you have way
more control in the directionof your business than you think.
A lot of us, are just clientdidn't reach out to me!
This brand didn't reach out tome, this project, they ghosted me.
(20:19):
Which ghosting sucks,it's very unprofessional.
We just have way morecontrol than we think we do.
We can control how we respond to things.
We can control our pricing.
We can control how we show up.
Those are things that are inour control, which quite frankly
is 80 percent of the job.
(20:39):
I can't control the economy.
This economy is ghetto as shit.
I feel like it's worse than 2008,and I remember 2008 very vividly.
I can't control that, but Ican control how I show up.
This business owner was thefounder of Perlbox, Miley Teal.
She says this quitefrequently you are not a tree.
(21:00):
You can move.
If something is not working, pivot.
You can move.
If you're lacking knowledge or youfeel like you're not lacking in
knowledge of something, seek it.
Mica (21:11):
Love that message.
One of my friends, they thought that Iwas insane because I get up at five and
my friend was like, I would love to getup early, but I could never get up early.
I'm not an early bird.
It's like, you could if.
Tamera (21:24):
If you, wanted to.
We have to be careful aboutthe stories we tell ourselves.
A lot of times they're not storiesthat we have told ourselves.
There are stories that have been toldto us by family members or society,
or maybe that one experience with acashier or with your former boss and
then you adopted that story as your own.
(21:47):
Being an entrepreneur, encouragesyou to rewrite a lot of the stories
that you have told yourself.
That is the only way you win.
And I'm not saying win asin a game with someone else.
Newsflash, the someoneelse is you, right?
I've been at this for 10 years.
Been running Dardem Creativenow for eight, nine years.
(22:11):
It has been the biggest personaldevelopment challenge that I've
ever experienced in my life.
It is a relearning and unlearning ofso many things that I picked up from
different places growing up or experiencesthat I went through that weren't great.
(22:32):
Every black woman has probablyhad a boss from hell, right?
I have realized that is just what this is.
If you're saying that youwant to achieve something.
Let's say if it's 60, 000 dollarsa year, I believe that for you.
Question is, do youbelieve it for yourself?
Are you willing to change your activities?
(22:54):
And your mindset inorder to hit that mark?
Those are the questions you have to askyourself because even when I was coaching,
I can't compete with your mindset.
I can only give you thetools and the resources.
The rest is up to you.
Mica (23:10):
What's the saying that at some point the shoe has to hit the pavement?
Tamera (23:15):
That's a good one.
I like it.
Mica (23:18):
You mentioned that you've been a freelancer for nine years.
You started yourphotography career in 2016.
Who was Tamera then?
Tamera (23:29):
An unhealed version of myself today.
I just started the business.
We didn't have a name yet.
But what I do remember fromthat time, I was just hungry.
I was two years out of leavinga traditional nine to five
that I was at for six years.
I thought that being brokewould always be my lot in life.
(23:53):
I really couldn't figure it out butI was determined to figure it out.
I was determined to find a purpose.
I was determined to earn a realliving being creative because I
knew that I didn't want to go backto a traditional nine to five.
I was a stylist for two years.
(24:14):
I was like, this is just not goingto work, but I wanted to be creative.
I love creating.
I love the planning of a production,but let's change the result.
Instead of wardrobe for someone,why not product styling?
Instagram had just popped up on the scene.
(24:36):
I started noticing that peoplewere posting their products.
Back in the day, there wasproduct photography, but just
not at the scale we see today.
I felt like that was a gap in the market,based off the skills that I acquired
from all of my random part time jobs.
I think I can take all ofthese skills and turn it into
product photography and styling.
(24:57):
I had an iPhone at the timeand I was like, all right,
this is what we're going to do.
I knew from jump, like, no, I'm notdoing any of this shit for free.
I came from a traditional nine to five.
So, those negotiating skills, thenetworking, the processes, all
of that, that was already there.
It just needed an outlet and productphotography became that outlet.
(25:19):
It took a lot of stumbling and trialand error, but eventually, fast
forward eight, nine years later.
Here we are.
Mica (25:27):
When I went back to school, for photography, I noticed that there
are two different sides to being onething, and we are taught only one.
What I found refreshing about thatinterview you did is that you said your
why develops as you do and hearing yousay my why was going in to make a living.
So my question is, how hasyour why evolved over time and
(25:50):
what are your whys these days?
Tamera (25:52):
I just wanna speak to one more point about the why.
Your why doesn't haveto be that deep, y'all.
I'm here to free you from thegrips of feeling like it needs to
be this esoteric explanation forwhy you do the things that you do.
(26:13):
It could just be I want to be ableto pay my bills doing this shit.
It could just be I want to be ableto afford living a freedom focused
lifestyle and afford health care.
It doesn't need to be that deep.
This is a long game.
It doesn't need to be that deep.
(26:34):
It really doesn't.
Answer your question about why,part of it is to be able to live
the lifestyle that I've created orcontinue to maintain the lifestyle
that I've created, which is, freedom,sustainability, be able to travel at whim.
You know, I am getting up there in age,so to be able to afford quality health
(26:56):
care and have access to that health care.
It really is just to be free.
Again, it's nothing deep.
I used to roll my eyes when my grandmotherwould be like, you know, you have to
lead by example, because I feel likethat puts so much pressure, especially
on black women to hold the standardof perfection that just doesn't exist.
And it never did, but I guessit is to lead by example.
(27:17):
To show what a freeBlack woman looks like.
I would say that is what my why is now.
I was a coach for a brief period of time.
But it stressed me out.
It just was not a really good fit forme and it wasn't sustainable for me.
And I remember journaling saying, Tamera,you do not need to coach, but what
(27:39):
you need to do is just live your life.
Mica (27:42):
Alright, TI, Rihanna.
Tamera (27:47):
Shout out to RiRi, Bad Girl RiRi, but Tamera, you
just need to live your life.
That is how you can show others a way.
That is what you do.
Mica (28:01):
I'm learning, as I get older, and deeper into genealogy is that,
our ancestors really didn't havea whole lot of choices of what
kind of doors were open to them.
It just makes me even more proud, to beBlack, to be Mexican, because those who
came before me, they really tore down,knock down, kicked down whatever doors
(28:23):
people were trying to shut in their face.
What I hope that listeners take awayfrom your episode, is when they read
The Photo CEO, it's like what you saidearlier, you are in the driver's seat.
You don't have to be reactive.
You can be proactivebut I'll turn it to you.
(28:44):
What do you hope the listenersgain from, not only reading
your book, not only reading yournewsletters, and following you.
What do you hope they takeaway from this altogether?
Tamera (28:57):
That a black woman can do it too.
When I first started, I didn't know ofany other black women who were navigating
the photography industry, especially in aniche as specific as product photography.
I was building the plane as I went along.
I knew I would get there, I justdidn't know how, and I didn't know
(29:23):
how long, but once I got to a placewhere I can wake up and not have
somewhere to be, meaning someone elsedidn't own my time, I knew I made it.
Regardless of how much money I made,but my goal at one time was to be
(29:43):
able to wake up in my bed, in my ownapartment and not have to go to a part
time job that was only paying me 10an hour, which is no shade to that.
I'm saying it more so as Ididn't have ownership of my time.
So I knew that I'd made itonce I had ownership of my time.
(30:07):
More importantly I wrote the bookto say, Hey, this photography shit
ain't all, you know, easy peasy.
There is a lot of business principlesyou have to implement to get to
the place that you desire and letthis book lead you to a decision.
So whether you want to continue on thispath, or you don't, you now have a very
(30:34):
clear understanding of what it takes.
This next chapter, which I have noidea what the chapter is, but there
are some chapters that are closing.
I am moving out of my apartment.
Any decisions that I make goingforward my why is to protect
the ownership of my time.
(30:55):
Period.
End of story.
Even if I decide to pick up acontractor job, that's my choice, right?
It's my choice.
So yeah, it comes down to timeownership and a black woman can do it.
And guiding an aspiring photographeror photographer who's been in the game
(31:17):
for years to help them make a decision.
Mica (31:19):
Tamera, thank you so much for being on the show.
I thoroughly enjoyed talking to you.
Tamera (31:25):
Thank you for having me.
This was great.
Mica (31:27):
Where can the listeners find you and follow you?
Tamera (31:29):
So I, I'm all over the place right now, but you can find me on LinkedIn.
I'm going to spell out my name Tamera.
T A M E R A Darden, D A R D E N.
Also you can find me on Instagram.
I'm currently on a hiatus fromInstagram, but it's the same.
Tamera dot Darden I'm also onThreads, Tamera dot Darden.
(31:50):
If you want to check out some of mywork, you can go to Darden Creative.
com.
I do have a weekly right now.
I think it may go down to bi-weekly,but I have a weekly photography business
newsletter The Photo CEO, substack.
com.
Mica (32:08):
Thank you so much again for being on the show,
Tamera (32:10):
Thank you, Mica.
I actually looking forward to this.
I may need to run this episodeback myself and take notes of some
of the stuff that I said, causeit definitely was a bad download.
Welcome to the 59th episode of The Savory Shot, a podcast about the art
(00:06):
and soul of working in food photography.
I'm your host with the most, Mica McCook.
I'm a food photographerbased out of Austin, Texas.
Y'all, welcome back.
It's been a hot minute.
It's been a long hot minute sinceour last episode the reason for my
absence, you can find out in episode 58.
(00:29):
So if you have not listened to that,pause this, go back, listen to it.
And then come back hereto finish out this show.
But before I do anything, say anything, Ihave to thank y'all, the listeners, thank
you for coming back for the returninglisteners, and for the new listeners,
(00:50):
thanks for giving the show a shot.
But I want to get right into it, y'all.
I want to talk about today's episode.
I am so excited to share this episodewith you because it's something that
I've been thinking about a lot lately.
I've been thinking about what itmeans to be in business, what it
(01:12):
means to be a working freelancer.
Am I considered working if I'mmaking money or am I considered
working if I'm actually doing thebehind the scenes to get the work?
I've been struggling about myrates and how high is too high.
(01:34):
I had a conversation with a producer.
I shared my rate sheet with him and heflat out said that my rates were too low.
And I'm like, what?
Earlier this year, I read thisfantastic book called The Photo
CEO and I enjoyed it so much.
I knew I just had to invite theauthor to appear on the show.
(01:54):
And luckily for y'all, she said yes.
So, without further ado, meetour next guest, Tamera Darden.
Tamara Darden is the founder of DardenCreative and the author of The Photo CEO.
She's a pro at creating bright,cheerful, and colorful beauty
(02:18):
and product photography.
In this episode, we talked about howto detach the art from the business,
why done is better than perfect,and how to rewrite the stories
you've been told about yourself.
So let's get into the show, grab yourcoffee, grab your drink, whatever
it is, relax, or grab a pen andpaper and let's start the show.
(03:15):
I want to start off by sayingI'm so excited that you're here.
I found you on LinkedIn and yourposts have just been keeping me going.
Keeping me alive.
They're so inspirational.
So like down to earth, like real advice.
Things that I really need to see and hear.
So I just wanna thank youfor being on the show.
(03:37):
So Welcome to the Savory Shot.
Tamera (03:41):
Thank you so much for those kind words.
It's very humbling.
You're just in a bubble a lot of thetimes when you're posting into thin air.
You never know who actually is goingto receive the message or read it.
Thank you very much for theinvitation to this podcast.
And thank you for the Instagram post,because that is actually how I found you.
(04:07):
You purchased the book, I self publishedon Amazon, which we'll get to later.
It shows you how many books you sell,but it doesn't say who, so you just
don't know who's purchasing your book.
It was really cool to see someonethat was not in my immediate circle of
friends buy a book and share their veryhonest review of reading The Photo CEO.
(04:33):
So thank you.
That means a lot.
That means my job is accomplished.
So thank you.
Mica (04:40):
I've told pretty much all of my photographer friends.
We're all just hustling, tryingto make a living at this.
And it's really tough to be a freelancer.
It's tough to find actual tangibleinformation that we can really use.
That's what I love about your bookthat it's direct to the point.
(05:01):
It's just real knowledge.
Let's get straight to the point.
I know you've got things to do, so thisis what information you need to know.
And I love books like that.
Tamera (05:11):
I wrote the book with the understanding that it will serve as a
guide throughout a photographer's career.
The way the book is broken down it issomething that you can look at certain
parts if you wanted to improve yourworkflow, or maybe you want to review
the pricing chapter again, like it'ssomething that you can continuously refer
(05:35):
back to as you are growing your business.
That's how I wanted thebook to be absorbed.
There's probably some sections of thebook that you look at more often than not.
And that's going to bedifferent for each person.
When I think about the decisions thatI've made throughout my career, one
of the questions that I ask myselfis what are the least amount of steps
(06:00):
in order to get to the end point?
It doesn't need to look pretty.
What are the least number ofsteps in order to get to the end
result that I am looking for?
Mica (06:11):
I love that.
I know that when there's like a thousandsteps involved into doing one little
thing, I can already hear in the backof my mind, that's not sustainable,
I won't be able to realisticallydo that on a long term basis.
So how can we dwiddle this down?
That's what I found so refreshing aboutThe Photo CEO is that the message that
(06:34):
"Perfection should not be the end result.
Done should be."
Your book from start to finishis useful, tangible things that
we can use and apply every day.
That's what I love about yourLinkedIn posts, the advice
you give, your newsletters.
As soon as I get a newsletter,it's the first thing that I read.
How do you use LinkedIn to connect withyour audience and what impact has it
(06:58):
had on your career and your business?
Tamera (07:01):
Thank you for the question and the kind words to be honest,
LinkedIn has not been my topsocial media platform of choice.
I just recently started utilizingLinkedIn again for the same reason
you are more likely to be incontact with decision makers faster.
(07:24):
When I first started my business, mymain platform of choice was Instagram.
Instagram was how I was able toreally showcase my work create
and develop my voice to promote myservices, really get your feet wet.
And it was the onlyplatform that I was on.
(07:44):
I talk about this in the book abouthow one does not need to spread
themselves thin being on five tosix different platforms at one time.
It's just not realistic.
And it's just not sustainable, especiallyif you are a solo entrepreneur, which
most of us are in this business.
So you have to find which platform worksfor you and just go deep in the paint.
(08:10):
A lot of the times people don't do that.
If you don't have KPIs, keyperformance indicators, or metrics.
That you can track yourselfto say this platform works for
me, or it doesn't work for me.
Instagram for a long period of timeworked for me because I worked it.
You can't really see thesuccess of a social media
(08:33):
platform until 12 to 18 months.
That is the marker.
With LinkedIn, I just recently decidedto commit to LinkedIn because of
the trajectory of my career today.
Also I believe there is a revenueor income barrier on instagram.
(08:56):
Especially the way that thealgorithm is set up right now.
I do believe that there is a plateauwhen it comes to how much money people
are willing to spend on services becausephotographers are service providers.
This is my first month in two years thatI am back on the platform, so I don't
(09:19):
have a lot of data to really say if it'sworking for me today or if it's not.
But what I do know is based offof the positive engagement and the
eyes that are seeing my content.
It's worth continuing to be on there.
I think the followup questionwould be how do you get over the
(09:45):
perceived perfectionism on LinkedIn?
And so I said to myself, if I'm going togo back on LinkedIn, I'm going to want to
show up as myself and win at this platformby being myself, showing my work being
consistent and setting up a frequencythat is sustainable and using the platform
(10:07):
to my advantage with the understandingthat I probably will not see booked
work, for another two months, right?
So three to six months.
Mica (10:19):
Something you hit on that really stands out to me is how you decided how
you were going to show up on LinkedIn.
There's this idea that you haveto be like this very stuffy.
Only post about your successes that youcan't be vulnerable on LinkedIn, that
it's very business attire and stiffupper lip and that's just not true.
(10:43):
It's a breath of fresh airwhen someone says, Hey, it's
been a rough couple of weeks.
I'm not booking work.
Is there anyone out therewho's also struggling?
Tamera (10:51):
People value transparency.
And there's nothing wrong with small talk.
There are so many people that arelike, Oh, I don't want small talk.
So then what the fuck arewe talking about then?
You want to know about my traumas?
That's for my therapist.
This is work.
That's the thing that people havea hard time separating the two.
(11:15):
And maybe this is a gift and acurse for me, but the ability to
compartmentalize, there are certainthings for certain scenarios, you have
to learn how to network effectively.
Because your network is your net worth.
People hear that phrase andthey think it feels icky.
(11:36):
No, this is real shit.
The only.
I wouldn't say the only creativething, cause that's not true,
but the act of photography.
So the actual picking up a camera,fixing the composition, adjusting
settings, pressing the photo, retouching,you know what that represents?
(11:59):
The percentage of that, whatthat represents running a
business like 10 to 15%.
The other 85 is actuallyrunning the shit.
If you do not have a clear understandingor do not want to embrace that
reality, then you may want to haveanother reassessment as to how you
(12:21):
want to see photography in your life.
You may say to yourself,this is too much for me.
So I'm just going to use this asa creative outlet where I am not
exchanging money for a service.
But if you are in this to run a business,to make it sustainable, to help you
(12:41):
pay your bills, to help you travel theworld, to help you share your story,
you need to run this like a business.
You need to network, you need to figureout what you like to do and choose
the marketing strategies and platformsthat's going to allow you to do it.
And also understand that thereis going to be trial and error.
(13:03):
There is no perfect template for this.
But the more you do it, themore data you have, and then
you're able to make adjustments.
But this is a long game.
This is not for play when peopleare like, "Maybe this is just me."
I've been in the business for solong, but sometimes people will be
like, when you think of photographydescribe photography in one word.
(13:28):
And people like, we'll say all ofthese very it's a breath of fresh air.
It is like shooting for the stars.
And I'm like, girl, this is my job.
I create beautiful shit.
Yes.
Absolutely.
And also, it is a way ofhow I sustain my life.
Mica (13:44):
In your book I touched on how photographers are so sensitive,
we have a hard time detachingthe art from the business.
My husband said something similar.
Cause that is something I struggledwith so much in the beginning.
I was like, how can Iput a price on my art.
This is my heart, my soul.
Aaron was like, that's all fine anddandy, but you are a business and
(14:08):
the government is certainly goingto treat you like a business, so you
need to conduct yourself as well.
It's just something that you haveto accept and be, be okay with.
You're in a creative career,but it's still a career.
Tamera (14:24):
People would gravitate towards it more if they realize that the beauty is
in combining art and commerce together.
It's one thing to conceptualize aphoto, but if you can also add commerce
behind it, you're golden, you're solid.
Being able to talk about yourart conceptually, but then when
(14:49):
it comes time to advocating foryour pricing and negotiating for
yourself, and you're able to do both.
You're unstoppable.
No one can tell you shit.
I was writing about this morning, actuallyfor a future LinkedIn posts about why
I wrote The Photo CEO, and one of thereasons is that when we hear the term
(15:12):
CEO, we have these negative connotations.
We are the ones thatassign meanings to words.
The Photo CEO is obviously it's anacronym for the framework, but also the
word CEO, when I think of it also meansself accountability and responsibility.
(15:33):
When you are exchanging tender withservice, you are responsible for
bringing your client's vision to life.
You are in service to the client.
No one gives a fuck about whatcamera you're shooting or my
camera was 5, 000 dollars.
(15:54):
That's why the price is the price.
No one gives a shit about that.
They want to know, do you have a niche?
They want to look at your workand say, I trust this person.
They are consistent.
I'm willing to pay them 10, 000 dollars.
Can you convince someoneto pay you 10, 000 dollars?
(16:15):
I'm gonna be honest with you,8 out of 10 people can't.
Mica (16:18):
Negotiating skills are so difficult.
Tamera (16:22):
I find it's difficult because, there isn't a level of detachment.
Because we get offended whensomeone says, we want this.
This is our budget.
I totally understand the differencebetween someone saying, I really love
your work, and this is our budget.
(16:42):
What can you work with?
And someone trying tonickel and dime you, right?
Those are two different things.
It's our responsibility tohave that discernment to
say, no this client ain't it.
We are not the right fit.
You should have your parameters beforeyou even go into a negotiation to
say, based off of these parameters,this is a yes or a no, right?
(17:04):
But negotiation is simply a conversation.
When you have your non negotiablesbefore any client approaches you, it
gives you a clearer understanding ofwhat you're willing to work with and
what you're not willing to work with.
If someone approaches you with abudget, and the scope of work doesn't
align, lower the scope of work.
(17:26):
Provide two different proposalsbased off of your budget, this is
what you can get, but based off whatyou really want, this is the price.
Give the client theopportunity to make a choice.
You may be surprised.
Mica (17:41):
They'll see that there are things that they didn't realize they needed,
and they're like Oh, oh well, I didn'teven take that into consideration.
Tamera (17:48):
And it gives you more autonomy, it gives you more control.
It's not just you in the passenger seat.
It is you in the driver's seatbecause you are the one that has
to compete at the end of the day.
Even if the project falls through Ijust learned something from this, I
just learned that I can negotiate.
Mica (18:09):
Photographers are afraid of negotiation because they're
afraid of saying the wrong thing.
One wrong thing can be the end all.
They run the fine line of wantingto appease them versus being
transparent about what theycould realistically deliver.
Tamera (18:29):
I wouldn't say it's scary though, maybe because rejection
is a part of this business.
If I'm saying that I want to make, forexample, even though this economy is trash
right now, but if I said that I wanted tomake a hundred thousand dollars for the
year and based off previous projects thatI've done I would need to book 10 clients.
That means I only needto convince 10 clients.
(18:52):
The issue with that is that because peopledon't look at their pricing and their
numbers, they have no clear understandingas to how many clients they need to have.
So every person that approaches them, youfeel like they need to say yes to you.
They don't.
So again, it's reframing it.
(19:12):
I don't think there's anythingwrong if the client is for me.
I can't say anything wrong,if the client is for me.
There are a lot of parameters thatwe just don't see that happens behind
the scenes on the client's end partof the decision making process.
It usually comes down to three things,timing and availability, whether it's
(19:33):
your availability or their availability,the budget, of course, right?
And what's the third one?
I should know this.
Timing.
Budget.
The main two are timing and budget, wecannot take those things personally.
Sometimes it just doesn't happen.
Every client is notgoing to be a good fit.
Mica (19:52):
No, doesn't mean no forever.
It just means not right now.
Tamera (19:55):
Yeah.
And it's absolutely okay.
Because what it does is just,it opens up the space for you
to reach out to more people.
I think what I want to get acrossto people is that you have way
more control in the directionof your business than you think.
A lot of us, are just clientdidn't reach out to me!
This brand didn't reach out tome, this project, they ghosted me.
(20:19):
Which ghosting sucks,it's very unprofessional.
We just have way morecontrol than we think we do.
We can control how we respond to things.
We can control our pricing.
We can control how we show up.
Those are things that are inour control, which quite frankly
is 80 percent of the job.
(20:39):
I can't control the economy.
This economy is ghetto as shit.
I feel like it's worse than 2008,and I remember 2008 very vividly.
I can't control that, but Ican control how I show up.
This business owner was thefounder of Perlbox, Miley Teal.
She says this quitefrequently you are not a tree.
(21:00):
You can move.
If something is not working, pivot.
You can move.
If you're lacking knowledge or youfeel like you're not lacking in
knowledge of something, seek it.
Mica (21:11):
Love that message.
One of my friends, they thought that Iwas insane because I get up at five and
my friend was like, I would love to getup early, but I could never get up early.
I'm not an early bird.
It's like, you could if.
Tamera (21:24):
If you, wanted to.
We have to be careful aboutthe stories we tell ourselves.
A lot of times they're not storiesthat we have told ourselves.
There are stories that have been toldto us by family members or society,
or maybe that one experience with acashier or with your former boss and
then you adopted that story as your own.
(21:47):
Being an entrepreneur, encouragesyou to rewrite a lot of the stories
that you have told yourself.
That is the only way you win.
And I'm not saying win asin a game with someone else.
Newsflash, the someoneelse is you, right?
I've been at this for 10 years.
Been running Dardem Creativenow for eight, nine years.
(22:11):
It has been the biggest personaldevelopment challenge that I've
ever experienced in my life.
It is a relearning and unlearning ofso many things that I picked up from
different places growing up or experiencesthat I went through that weren't great.
(22:32):
Every black woman has probablyhad a boss from hell, right?
I have realized that is just what this is.
If you're saying that youwant to achieve something.
Let's say if it's 60, 000 dollarsa year, I believe that for you.
Question is, do youbelieve it for yourself?
Are you willing to change your activities?
(22:54):
And your mindset inorder to hit that mark?
Those are the questions you have to askyourself because even when I was coaching,
I can't compete with your mindset.
I can only give you thetools and the resources.
The rest is up to you.
Mica (23:10):
What's the saying that at some point the shoe has to hit the pavement?
Tamera (23:15):
That's a good one.
I like it.
Mica (23:18):
You mentioned that you've been a freelancer for nine years.
You started yourphotography career in 2016.
Who was Tamera then?
Tamera (23:29):
An unhealed version of myself today.
I just started the business.
We didn't have a name yet.
But what I do remember fromthat time, I was just hungry.
I was two years out of leavinga traditional nine to five
that I was at for six years.
I thought that being brokewould always be my lot in life.
(23:53):
I really couldn't figure it out butI was determined to figure it out.
I was determined to find a purpose.
I was determined to earn a realliving being creative because I
knew that I didn't want to go backto a traditional nine to five.
I was a stylist for two years.
(24:14):
I was like, this is just not goingto work, but I wanted to be creative.
I love creating.
I love the planning of a production,but let's change the result.
Instead of wardrobe for someone,why not product styling?
Instagram had just popped up on the scene.
(24:36):
I started noticing that peoplewere posting their products.
Back in the day, there wasproduct photography, but just
not at the scale we see today.
I felt like that was a gap in the market,based off the skills that I acquired
from all of my random part time jobs.
I think I can take all ofthese skills and turn it into
product photography and styling.
(24:57):
I had an iPhone at the timeand I was like, all right,
this is what we're going to do.
I knew from jump, like, no, I'm notdoing any of this shit for free.
I came from a traditional nine to five.
So, those negotiating skills, thenetworking, the processes, all
of that, that was already there.
It just needed an outlet and productphotography became that outlet.
(25:19):
It took a lot of stumbling and trialand error, but eventually, fast
forward eight, nine years later.
Here we are.
Mica (25:27):
When I went back to school, for photography, I noticed that there
are two different sides to being onething, and we are taught only one.
What I found refreshing about thatinterview you did is that you said your
why develops as you do and hearing yousay my why was going in to make a living.
So my question is, how hasyour why evolved over time and
(25:50):
what are your whys these days?
Tamera (25:52):
I just wanna speak to one more point about the why.
Your why doesn't haveto be that deep, y'all.
I'm here to free you from thegrips of feeling like it needs to
be this esoteric explanation forwhy you do the things that you do.
(26:13):
It could just be I want to be ableto pay my bills doing this shit.
It could just be I want to be ableto afford living a freedom focused
lifestyle and afford health care.
It doesn't need to be that deep.
This is a long game.
It doesn't need to be that deep.
(26:34):
It really doesn't.
Answer your question about why,part of it is to be able to live
the lifestyle that I've created orcontinue to maintain the lifestyle
that I've created, which is, freedom,sustainability, be able to travel at whim.
You know, I am getting up there in age,so to be able to afford quality health
(26:56):
care and have access to that health care.
It really is just to be free.
Again, it's nothing deep.
I used to roll my eyes when my grandmotherwould be like, you know, you have to
lead by example, because I feel likethat puts so much pressure, especially
on black women to hold the standardof perfection that just doesn't exist.
And it never did, but I guessit is to lead by example.
(27:17):
To show what a freeBlack woman looks like.
I would say that is what my why is now.
I was a coach for a brief period of time.
But it stressed me out.
It just was not a really good fit forme and it wasn't sustainable for me.
And I remember journaling saying, Tamera,you do not need to coach, but what
(27:39):
you need to do is just live your life.
Mica (27:42):
Alright, TI, Rihanna.
Tamera (27:47):
Shout out to RiRi, Bad Girl RiRi, but Tamera, you
just need to live your life.
That is how you can show others a way.
That is what you do.
Mica (28:01):
I'm learning, as I get older, and deeper into genealogy is that,
our ancestors really didn't havea whole lot of choices of what
kind of doors were open to them.
It just makes me even more proud, to beBlack, to be Mexican, because those who
came before me, they really tore down,knock down, kicked down whatever doors
(28:23):
people were trying to shut in their face.
What I hope that listeners take awayfrom your episode, is when they read
The Photo CEO, it's like what you saidearlier, you are in the driver's seat.
You don't have to be reactive.
You can be proactivebut I'll turn it to you.
(28:44):
What do you hope the listenersgain from, not only reading
your book, not only reading yournewsletters, and following you.
What do you hope they takeaway from this altogether?
Tamera (28:57):
That a black woman can do it too.
When I first started, I didn't know ofany other black women who were navigating
the photography industry, especially in aniche as specific as product photography.
I was building the plane as I went along.
I knew I would get there, I justdidn't know how, and I didn't know
(29:23):
how long, but once I got to a placewhere I can wake up and not have
somewhere to be, meaning someone elsedidn't own my time, I knew I made it.
Regardless of how much money I made,but my goal at one time was to be
(29:43):
able to wake up in my bed, in my ownapartment and not have to go to a part
time job that was only paying me 10an hour, which is no shade to that.
I'm saying it more so as Ididn't have ownership of my time.
So I knew that I'd made itonce I had ownership of my time.
(30:07):
More importantly I wrote the bookto say, Hey, this photography shit
ain't all, you know, easy peasy.
There is a lot of business principlesyou have to implement to get to
the place that you desire and letthis book lead you to a decision.
So whether you want to continue on thispath, or you don't, you now have a very
(30:34):
clear understanding of what it takes.
This next chapter, which I have noidea what the chapter is, but there
are some chapters that are closing.
I am moving out of my apartment.
Any decisions that I make goingforward my why is to protect
the ownership of my time.
(30:55):
Period.
End of story.
Even if I decide to pick up acontractor job, that's my choice, right?
It's my choice.
So yeah, it comes down to timeownership and a black woman can do it.
And guiding an aspiring photographeror photographer who's been in the game
(31:17):
for years to help them make a decision.
Mica (31:19):
Tamera, thank you so much for being on the show.
I thoroughly enjoyed talking to you.
Tamera (31:25):
Thank you for having me.
This was great.
Mica (31:27):
Where can the listeners find you and follow you?
Tamera (31:29):
So I, I'm all over the place right now, but you can find me on LinkedIn.
I'm going to spell out my name Tamera.
T A M E R A Darden, D A R D E N.
Also you can find me on Instagram.
I'm currently on a hiatus fromInstagram, but it's the same.
Tamera dot Darden I'm also onThreads, Tamera dot Darden.
(31:50):
If you want to check out some of mywork, you can go to Darden Creative.
com.
I do have a weekly right now.
I think it may go down to bi-weekly,but I have a weekly photography business
newsletter The Photo CEO, substack.
com.
Mica (32:08):
Thank you so much again for being on the show,
Tamera (32:10):
Thank you, Mica.
I actually looking forward to this.
I may need to run this episodeback myself and take notes of some
of the stuff that I said, causeit definitely was a bad download.
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