September 23, 2025 • 33 mins
Are you feeling overwhelmed by the thought of homeschooling high school?
In this episode of the Schoolhouse Rocked Podcast, host Cindy West and special guest Pam Barnhill share real-life encouragement and practical tips for homeschooling your teens through high school. Learn how to balance rigorous academics with character building, foster independence, and handle common fears—like "What if my high schooler doesn’t know what they want to do?" Pam, a former high school teacher and experienced homeschool mom of three, opens up about her family's journey, including how they navigated college, career changes, volunteer opportunities, and more.
Key topics:
• Transitioning from multi-age homeschooling to high school
• Keeping doors open for college, trades, or other paths
• Encouraging passions, apprenticeships, and work experiences
• How to handle transcripts, credit hours, and record-keeping
• Why it’s okay if your teen changes direction after graduation
👉 Subscribe for more encouragement for Christian homeschoolers.
Recommended Resources:
- PamBarnhill.com
- Better Together: Strengthen Your Family, Simplify Your Homeschool, and Savor the Subjects that Matter Most, by Pam Barnhill
- Gather: Exploring the Wonder, Wisdom, and Worship of Learning at Home, by Pam Barnhill
- Plan Your Year: Homeschool Planning for Purpose and Peace, by Pam Barnhill
- Navigating High School Course from Pam Barnhill
- Cindy West’s Homeschool Masterclass on Project-Based Learning
- No Sweat Nature Study Podcast
Sponsors:
Apologia is a Christ-centered, award-winning homeschool curriculum provider. Our mission is to help homeschooling students and families learn, live, and defend the Christian faith through our print and digital curriculum and online classes.
BJU Press Homeschool is dedicated to providing homeschool families with academically strong curriculum rooted in a biblical worldview. They offer a complete curriculum from preschool through 12th grade, available in both traditional textbooks and video courses. By teaching through the lens of Christ’s power, they help students view the world through the transformative story of God’s creation
CTCMath specializes in providing online video tutorials that take a multi-sensory approach to learning. Creative graphics and animation, synchronized with the friendly voice of internationally acclaimed teacher, Pat Murray, make learning math easy and effective. Start your free trial today.
The Schoolhouse Rocked Podcast is a member of the Biblical Family Network. Our mission is to support and encourage the family by providing the very best podcasts on family, discipleship, marriage, parenting, worldview, culture, and education, all from a Biblical perspective. Visit the website for more great shows, like the Thinking Dad, Culture Proof, Homeschool Insights, and Made2Homeschool.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
We build up high school in our head.
It's like this big thing. You've already learned how to do
something like this once and so you can do it again.
They get in there and they're like, Oh my goodness, I've got
to change everything. Everything that I love about my
home school has now got to change and be totally different
because I'm homeschooling this high schooler.
(00:22):
Hey everyone, welcome back to the Schoolhouse Rock podcast.
I am Cindy W back with Pam Farnhill and we are excited to
be back with you this week talking about high school
homeschooling. But before we get into our
conversation, I would like to thank our sponsor, apologia.
If you're looking for a trusted homeschool resource to support
(00:42):
your child's education with a strong biblical worldview,
you'll find it through apologia.For decades, Apologia has been a
go to source for homeschool curriculum designed to educate,
inspire and build a lifelong love of learning.
They know that homeschooling isn't 1 size fits all.
That's why they offer a growing catalog of resources to fit your
(01:06):
family needs. Dive into online self-paced
courses, join live classes led by incredible instructors, or
stream engaging video lessons anytime, anywhere.
They even offer audio books perfect for learning on the go.
Apologia will partner with you and your family's educational
journey. Explore the full lineup of
(01:27):
Apologia homeschool resources today at apologia.com and
discover how they can help your family thrive.
Apologia, equipping families, inspiring learners and teaching
truth. All right, Pam, welcome back to
the Schoolhouse Rock podcast. It's so good to have you again.
We had such a great conversationabout multi age homeschooling
(01:49):
last time. So if anyone missed that, I hope
they will go back and catch it. You and I are both very
practical, practical presenters of of homeschooling ideas.
That was a practical filled episode and I hope this one is
too. We're going to turn our
attention this time into homeschooling high school.
(02:09):
I I have been there three different times and have
graduated 3 different kids. You have been there three
different times and you have onemore left to finish.
Why do you tell us just a littlebit about homeschooling, high
school and what that's looked like in your family?
Yeah, so I was a high school teacher and back before I
(02:32):
started homeschooling, and I have to say high school has
always been my absolute favoriteage group, too.
I mean, middle schoolers are pretty good too.
I did teach middle schoolers fora while, but I don't know, there
was just something so enjoyable about high schoolers.
They kind of start getting the inside jokes and, you know, they
get, I don't know, I appreciate a finely tuned snark every now
(02:55):
and then. And so they're just a lot of fun
to hang out with, a lot of fun to be with, and a lot, a lot of
fun to learn with. And that's what that's what
homeschooling high school lookedlike for us.
We still did a lot of things together when my kids were in
high school. And so a good part of our day
(03:17):
was still spent learning together.
And we just enjoyed sharing subjects and stories and, and,
and each other all. Yeah.
Well, I would say Ditto. They enter the logic stage,
which is what they're supposed to do.
They enter the independent learning stage, which is what
they're supposed to do. In the high school years, you
(03:38):
really start to see the fruits of all those laborers over the
years. If you've been homeschooling for
a long time, you also begin to see their desires, their dreams,
their, their passions. And in our home school, I really
made some space for that in thatthe day so that they were able
(04:02):
to explore some things of hey, Ithink I'm interested in this, Am
I interested in this? So it just became this beautiful
mix of learning together, watching them grow in
independence, watching them growin maybe what their future would
be or wouldn't be. They would they were deciding it
right in front of you. Watching them mature through
their hormone changes. There's just a a lot that high
(04:26):
school brings. And I think what I'd like us to
focus on today, if you are willing, is taking what a lot of
parents see as a fearful time ofhomeschooling.
And let's give them a lot of fantastic encouragement that
homeschooling the high school years is precious and blessed
(04:48):
and beautiful. And we can do that first and
foremost. Why don't you start by telling
us I, I don't think we talked about this last time and you
know, you hinted that you have three kids, but why don't you
tell us just a little bit of background about where your kids
are right now, their ages and, and that kind of thing.
(05:09):
And then jump into what maybe you feel like was one of your
fears. If you had a fear, and you might
not have because you had high school teaching experience, but
maybe what you've heard as a fear.
Yeah. Oh, no, I had, trust me, fears,
I think. Well, and I think that's The
thing is like it, you know, being apprehensive about
(05:31):
something is actually it. It means that you're thoughtful
about your whole school process.Because if you come in here and
you're not apprehensive about anything, well, then you're
probably not giving it enough thought.
I don't know. But you.
So yeah, definitely had fears. But yeah, I have 3.
So Olivia is 20 years old right now, and she has graduated from
(05:55):
our local Community College. She went and got a certificate
of cosmetology with distinction.We say that's because she
distincts, but, you know, do it.She rolls her eyes at us.
So she did that, and now she's waiting to take her cosmetology
boards. And it's kind of funny.
She's like, I'm not sure I want to be a cosmetologist.
(06:17):
And we're like, OK, OK, well, there's still some money left in
your college fund if you want togo back to school or if you want
to do something else. So she's waiting to take her
boards right now and she's working at a coffee shop and she
really, really likes that a lot.So Olivia's the kind of person
where the environment of where she works is like the number one
(06:42):
thing for her. If everybody there is happy and
it's a fun place to work, then she is going to love the job.
And so we, we're going to have to figure that out for her.
But she spends her extra time, she's writing, she's written 2
novels. So she's working on a novel.
She's doing her art, she's decorating, she's doing some
decorating of her room. And she's saving her money
(07:05):
because she wants to move out onher own.
And yeah, so it's, yeah, just a lot of fun.
And then John is my second graduate.
He graduated just this past year.
He's 18 and he has, he is planning on starting Community
College. He's taken a gap semester.
He's planning on starting Community College and doing, I
(07:26):
think it's a digital arts program.
It's like the newest, it's like the new graphic design, you
know, but it's, it's got like 3Dmodeling and photography and
video and all of this stuff in there.
So that's what he's interested in.
That's what he wants to do. But he has been working at a
(07:47):
local food truck since he was 14years old and he is now the food
truck manager. And so he works there a number
of hours a week and, and really enjoys that.
And then my youngest, that's Thomas.
He is 15. He'll be 16 in the fall.
And he's very active in Civil Air Patrol.
(08:09):
And he's going to three camps this summer.
He's at an engineering camp right now.
He's got one more engineering camp in August.
And yes, I'm counting those daysas school days.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. That's a lot of schooling.
OK, before we talk about the fears, I heard one in there that
(08:29):
I know people are going to say, oh, please talk about that
because that is a huge fear. And that is the idea that Olivia
has gone to school. And now it's kind of like, oh,
no, I'm not sure I want to do this.
And I just want to encourage everybody.
I also had a daughter who got a bachelor's degree in something.
(08:52):
She is kind of sort of doing that now, but it took her a
couple of years to to go. Oh, do I really want to do this
now that I'm out? So I want to talk about a fear
that I know our listeners probably have, and that is.
But what if my high schooler doesn't know what they want to
do? Well, I so it, this is what
we've told Olivia. First of all, it's not like she
(09:13):
went and got a medical degree and decided she didn't want to
do it right. So we'd be in for a lot more
than And so it's totally OK. And it was always an option that
she could continue going to Community College if she didn't
want to. We're big fans of Community
College here. Not to say that if anyone kid
didn't want to start there, thatwe would be completely against
(09:34):
it, but we're big fans of it because we both did it.
So that's the first thing. It's like, you know it, she
could go back to school. Some of her stuff would transfer
into her going on and getting another degree.
The other thing is neither one of us, the first year out of
college, neither myself nor my husband did the thing that we
went to school for. You know, I worked in a pool
(09:57):
store my first year before I waslike, yeah, I guess I am
actually going to have to go teach to pay back my
scholarship. And then I ended up doing the
thing I'm doing now. I love to tell my kids was not
even invented when I came out ofhigh school, right?
If somebody had took 18 year oldme aside and said, you know,
(10:18):
you're going to be an author whoself publishes books and you're
going to be a podcaster and you're going to sell digital
products and courses on this thing called the Internet, I
would be like, OK. Right.
Right. So who knows all these years
from now what it is they're going to be doing.
So there's no reason to get scared or worked up about this
because, like, you just don't know where life is going to take
(10:42):
you. Yeah.
So that's the first thing. Then the second thing I'm going
to say is what we tell moms going into.
We have a program called Navigating High School, which is
basically how to do all the highschool things.
And it really starts with mindset.
And then we get into all the really practical things.
We have, you know, a whole module on what do you do if my
kid wants to go in the military or play NCAA sports or, you
(11:05):
know, how do I create a transcript and what's a credit
hour? We have all of that stuff.
But one of the things we talk about through there is #1 giving
your kids ownership over their high school process, talking to
them about what they want to do,and then creating a high school
program that is going to help them accomplish those goals.
(11:25):
And then if they don't know whatthey want to do, then the object
of the game is what we call Don't close any doors.
I like that. You've got this high schooler
who's unsure what they want to do.
Maybe they're even a little unmotivated to do the high
school things. I don't know if anybody else has
ever come up against the high schooler like that, right?
(11:48):
And you're like, OK, I'm like butting heads trying to like,
get this kid into college and hedoesn't even know if he wants to
go to college. So then we say plan for not
closing any doors. So look at places where he might
want to go or she might want to go and say, do we need a foreign
language to get there? You know, or are there options
(12:10):
where we don't have to do a foreign language?
And then you can decide whether or not to do the foreign
language, but we're not going toclose that door.
And so that was kind of the mentality I had going all the
way through high school with my two oldest is let's don't close
any doors, you know, that you might need to still be open.
And that was how we planned fourthings.
(12:32):
Excellent. My third one, he's a little more
like, thank goodness I finally got somebody who's like, this is
what I want to do. And so now I I know exactly how
to plan on my third one, which maybe is a good thing that I
didn't have that on the 1st. Right.
It would have been a little moretraumatizing, yeah, if the first
one had been that way. It's totally normal for kids
(12:53):
this age not to know what they're doing.
And even if they start and regret, that's the coolest thing
we've given them through homeschooling is the opportunity
to know how to pivot well and toknow how to learn and to know
how to figure it out. And that to me is one of the
goals of homeschooling, especially in high school, is I
(13:17):
want you to be a good thinker. You don't have to know
everything right now. You don't have to make the right
decision right now, but you do need to be working towards that.
And if you know how to do that, then it's going to work for you
in the end. And I'll just add, you know, I
also am not doing. I knew when I was six years old
that I was meant to be a teacher. 100% didn't have a
(13:38):
question, but if you would have told me that my teaching today
looks like no sweat, nature study, Internet based classes, I
would have also told you you were crazy because it wasn't
even there was no such thing. And you know, the world is
moving at such a pace right now.I think we just have to, we have
to go into high school saying you deserve a college bound
(13:58):
education. And then what you do from there,
if you take some twists or some turns or even waste a year or
two, it's OK, it's OK. It's all going to be OK.
The only thing I would say to that is if I had a kid who came
to me and it's like, OK, I want,I want to be a cabinet maker.
I want to apprentice under a cabinet maker.
I would not close the college door, but I would allow them the
(14:21):
freedom and the time to do that apprenticeship. 100% and that's
what we did. We actually allowed our kids as
they got into the junior and senior years to choose some of
those apprenticeships or internships or explorations and
things that they wanted to do totry them out for size.
(14:43):
They were still expected to get what what I would call the bare
minimum of a college bound education.
And in that there are a lot of elective options.
And that's where we were like, OK, well you want to do cabinet
making? Yes, I'm going to get you an
apprenticeship for this. So yeah, I think we're talking
the same language about that forsure.
OK, well, what's another fear, especially for a parent who is
(15:08):
just beginning to either think about high school or they have a
new high schooler upcoming? What do you see as one of the
biggest fears they have? So I see one of the things that
a lot of people think is, Oh my goodness, they start this about
the end of 7th beginning of 8th grade.
And it, it kind of can become this big wave that threatens to
(15:28):
overwhelm them in 8th grade, Especially for people who have
done a lot of that multi age family learning as they've gone
along. And they get in there and
they're like, Oh my goodness, I've got to change everything.
Everything that I love about my homeschool has now got to change
and be totally different becauseI'm homeschooling this high
(15:50):
schooler. And what I would say to that is,
no, it doesn't, right? You do not have to turn your
entire homeschool on its head. There's still so much that you
can do. You know it too.
Do what you've done all along. If you've always used literature
based curriculum, there's tons of fabulous literature based
(16:11):
curriculum out there for high schoolers.
You don't have to immediately start using the textbook or
something like that. And so if you still would like
to use a literature based curriculum for history or
something, maybe you do that forhistory and then you use a
science text. But you don't have to throw off
everything that you've been doing and completely and totally
change. The other thing is you don't
(16:33):
have to outsource everything. You know you have that option if
you want that option, if your child wants that option.
But if they don't, there's so much you could do without
putting them in a formal class. You can still work with them,
and you can still teach with them.
Absolutely. You know and learn together.
Yeah, absolutely. OK.
(16:54):
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That's ctcmath.com. All right, Pam, I can hear a
(18:20):
homeschool mom saying, all right, I heard you on this
whole, we can still learn together, but we can do some
textbooks. And I have a kiddo that has
never done a textbook before because we have learned together
or we've done unit studies or this, that or the other.
And it just feels like so much pressure that we must get into a
(18:43):
textbook. So I'd like to know your
thoughts on the must word, and then I'd like to know your
thoughts on how you can move a child towards that type of
learning if you do want them to have some experience with it
before high school. Is over.
Yeah. So I'm going to like, do
something that I think it's going to shock a lot of people.
(19:07):
Olivia had never used a textbook, like, ever.
She left our home school having never done like a traditional
textbook. The closest thing we came was a
science book that they used in Co-op when they were in middle
school or something like that. And we just, we used literature
(19:29):
based learning for almost everything we did.
We used a lot of Guest Hollow and it's all real books for even
things like science and history and stuff like that.
So then she goes to school and she's got to learn how to use a
textbook and she's got to learn how to take tests.
I was not a big test giver either.
(19:49):
You know, I mean, they've done alittle bit, but it was not like,
oh, study the chapter and then we're going to do the test at
the end. There was none of that kind of
stuff. And so she had to learn how to
do all of that. And I would say it took her
about 5 weeks. It took her about 5 weeks that
first semester. And it's not like she was
completely failing. She was just like you could see
her doing the little dance of figuring it out.
(20:11):
And after that first five weeks?She completely and totally had
it and you know, went on to graduate with distinction and so
you know all A's and B's for hergraduation.
And so you know, they learn thatshe was able to to pick it up
and learn it and it took her about 5 weeks to do it so.
Yeah. And if we're talking about
(20:34):
learning as a lifestyle, lifestyle of learning, then what
we're equipping them with, no matter how we're teaching them,
should allow them to pivot. She wouldn't let me help either.
Like once she got into school, actually somewhat to her
detriment, her last semester, she finally got around to taking
her English class. And I, I still don't 100% know
(20:58):
if they like wouldn't let I knowthat.
They said at one point like you can't have another English
teacher look at your paper because she mentioned that to
me. She's like, mom, you're an
English teacher. I'm like, I haven't been an
English teacher in a long time. I'm really just your mom, you
know, So, but they weren't supposed to get help.
But like I told her, I'm like, Iproofread all of your father's
(21:18):
papers when he was in college. Somebody's got to proofread your
paper. And so the first paper she
turned in had not been proofread, and the grade
reflected that. And then she ends up making a 97
in the class by the time the whole class is over, you know,
so she figured out, like, exactly what it was she needed
to do, and she started doing it.And so without my help, even
(21:41):
though I really wanted to help. I know, I love that.
She's like, no, I've got this. I think we can we can probably
walk into some practical tips because I can hear some people
saying, OK, OK, OK, so you guys have resilient kids who can
figure this out, but what did you do to get them there?
(22:03):
So maybe we can talk about that.How do we train up our children
so that when they face a challenge or have to make a
decision or need to write a paper or need to get in a
textbook or how are we creating kids who can think on their toes
like that and figure it out? Well, I'm a big fan of letting
(22:25):
kids work. You mean a job?
Yeah. A job.
Yeah. A job.
Job. Like, this is the real world,
and we're going to put things into practice in the real world.
And so all of my kids have worked since they were.
John was the anomaly. He started at 14, but everybody
else started at, like, 15 or 16.And it means something.
(22:49):
It matters. There are real consequences to
what they're doing because even with homeschooling, I mean,
school itself is 100% sent an artificial construct.
Even homeschooling to a large extent, we create these
artificial constructs within homeschooling, especially when
you're homeschooling high schooland you're trying to put grades
on a transcript and stuff like that.
(23:11):
So like it's, it's a real world thing for them to actually have
a job. Another thing which really
helped Olivia is she took music lessons, but she played in a
band. You know, it wasn't just, well,
I'm doing music lessons over here to do a recital once a
year. She played in the band at
(23:31):
church. And so and then when the music
director leaves, she was the onewho was, there's no other
pianist and she's the one doing it for the entire church, for
the, you know, for Sunday service.
And so those kinds of like meaningful, real world kind of
situations as opposed to just, you know, the thing that mom
(23:54):
makes up up over here that says I have to do a good job at and
it doesn't really mean anything at the end of the day, you know,
So I think that's a hugely important thing is, is anytime
you can put them in a situation where it really counts for
something, other people are depending on them.
Them doing high quality work affects the, you know, what
other people see and get, you know, Civil Air Patrol does that
(24:18):
for my. Young.
Oh, I would say for sure, yeah. Our kids grew up on the farm and
the necessity of jobs and changing gears when, you know, a
fence breaks or a or fence gets knocked over by a cow or a
tractor brakes or something. Those things developed problem
(24:39):
solving skills that were so important.
But even as they got old enough to drive, I said you got to get
off the farm and you got to go work with other people.
And I saw that as a huge maturing point for them both in
how they were able to handle themselves emotionally, problem
solve, work with other people. And I don't think this is just a
(25:03):
homeschooling thing. I think this is all kids that's
this age because it's also promoting independence.
Yeah, I mean, it can be done. We we've gotten some skills
through volunteer opportunities as well.
And but like I said, it's they're not the artificial
construct. It's not an assignment that
somebody makes up that needs to be done just because I say it
(25:24):
needs to be done. It's something that has real
consequences on the other side for someone else.
And so, you know, Olivia was very active in our church.
There was a camp that kids ran for other kids.
It was like a retreat. So they would have to do public
speaking. They would have different roles
(25:44):
that they played. They prepared for it months in
advance and so, you know, that was a very real situation.
So it doesn't have to just be done through a job.
You could definitely do it through volunteering as well.
Absolutely. Or just real life situations in
general. You know, if somebody needs to
put new tile in the bathroom floor, that's a project the high
schooler needs to come alongsideand and help you figure out.
(26:08):
OK, so we're getting close to ending time.
I'm trying to think what the thefearful parent or the parent
just really need some encouragement that this high
school thing is worth it and doable.
What would maybe be one more fear that you can just hear them
exuding through the speakers andthey're saying, oh, please
answer this question. Can you think of anything?
(26:31):
Well, I think there's a, a fear that like, I've never done this
before, like I can't figure thisout.
Like this is going to be, this is going to be the hardest thing
I've ever done. And I don't know, like if, if
you've never homeschooled before, like sure, maybe there's
something out there hard that you've done that we could liken
it to. But I want you to think back as
(26:52):
you have this 8th grader going into 9th grader.
I want you to think back. So when you pulled your third
grader out of school because they were being bullied or when
you were sitting there with thatlittle 4 year old, 5 year old
and you're thinking, oh, like everybody's pressuring me to put
this kid into preschool, but we want to do it here at home.
And you have the 2 year old likehanging on your leg at the same
(27:13):
time. You didn't know how to
homeschool then either. And you put your head down and
you figured it out and you got to be really successful at it.
And it's the same thing with high school.
It's, it's not that different. Like you have to like throw in a
few extra things. But really, remember we talked
about not changing your entire home school.
(27:34):
It's not that different and you can figure it out.
So just like you learned when they were going into
kindergarten, or just like you learned when you pulled them out
of school because of a bad situation, you're going to learn
how to do this too. It's the same process.
You've been through it before, so you know exactly how to do it
(27:56):
right. It's just a few little extra
added on things that you need tolearn.
And I think we. Yeah, we build up high school in
our head as like this big, this big thing.
You've already learned how to dosomething like this once, you
know, and so you can do it again.
Absolutely, and there are plentyof people to come alongside you
(28:17):
to help you with this, whether it's through training yourself
or, you know, classes for your kids.
So to end on that, Pam, why don't you tell us what you have
specifically for parents and high school age students that
could help them in this journey and then tell everybody where to
find you? Yeah, so we've got we've our
premier high school course is called Navigating High School
(28:39):
multiple modules. It was actually me and three
other homeschool moms. So I felt very, it was very
important to me to get multiple voices because there is no one
way to home school, high school.And so I didn't want to put
myself out there as the only wayto do it.
And so my friend Heather Tully, she's a mom of 10.
(29:00):
She's graduated at least four. And then Laney Holman is a mom
of eight. She's graduated four and then
Don Garrett has graduated 3 and then myself, I've graduated 2.
And we all came together to giveyou multiple perspectives
throughout this course. And so we do have a a big
mindset section and then we havea very large practical section
(29:23):
as well, along with a transcriptgenerator that you can enter all
your information into and it spits out this lovely official
looking transcript at the very end.
So we have that and then we havesome of our teens on track
courses which are run through what we call our task card
system. And so basically the way a
teen's on track courses laid outis your kids get the task cards,
(29:47):
which you can edit, and then once a week you meet with them
about the topic and we give you an agenda for that meeting.
And so it's super easy for them to do something like PE or
photography or life skills or something like that while you're
still wrestling a bunch of little ones.
And all you have to do is they check off the boxes and you meet
(30:08):
with them once a week and you know exactly what to talk to
them about. So we have those available as
well, and it's all at pambarnhill.com.
OK, and that's where they can find you on social media as
well, right, Pam Barnhill? Yeah, OK.
Awesome. Well, Pam, thank you so much for
joining us. This has been an amazing.
I hope encouraging episode. I have a couple of things for
(30:31):
folks too that we will try to link in the show notes as well
about planning your home school,your high school years, having a
good solid plan for four years of what you'll do.
And then one about how would youplan a high school semester or
year based on your students interest.
So if there's no curriculum out there, how would you take what
(30:53):
they're interested in and turn that into a legitimate course.
So we'll try to link those things to Thanks for being here,
Pam, you guys, I am Cindy W You can find me at our journey
westward across the board. I'm also missus Cindy of No
Sweat Nature Study and the No Sweat Nature Study podcast.
And we just hope you will join us back here next time for
(31:16):
another amazing host and her guest.
And we'll see you guys soon. Thanks so much for joining us
today for the Schoolhouse Rockedpodcast.
We'd love to hear from you. If there's a topic you'd like us
to cover, reach out to us at Podcast at
schoolhouserocked.com. One last thing, if you know a
friend who would be encouraged by this podcast, please share it
(31:37):
with them. Join us next week for another
exciting episode of the Schoolhouse Rocked Podcast.
Until then, keep pointing your kids to Jesus.
You're listening to the BiblicalFamily Network.
Hey, I'm Miki and I'm Will and we're the Co host of the Culture
Proof podcast. We want to invite you to join us
(31:58):
every week as we discuss what's happening in the world and then
filter those happenings through a decidedly biblical lens.
There are many questions, especially when we see what's
happening in our culture today, but the answers are found within
the Word of God, so that's wherewe want to look.
Amen. When we resist those cultural
trends that rival the truth. We remain culture proof.
(32:20):
We run the danger when we talk about biblical worldview of
keeping it a mental workout, helping the kids, you know,
trace back their beliefs back tohow you know that we can justify
our beliefs through God's word. And that's wonderful.
The problem is if they're not shaped by it, even into their
hearts where it becomes a part of who they are, we're really
(32:43):
wasting our time. Because what what ends up
happening is they they grow up and they say, well, that was mom
and dad's faith that wasn't mine.
And they may have learned all those things, but if it doesn't
hit the heart, we're in trouble.
We build up high school in our head.
It's like this big thing. You've already learned how to do
something like this once and so you can do it again.
They get in there and they're like, Oh my goodness, I've got
to change everything. Everything that I love about my
home school has now got to change and be totally different
because I'm homeschooling this high schooler.
(00:22):
Hey everyone, welcome back to the Schoolhouse Rock podcast.
I am Cindy W back with Pam Farnhill and we are excited to
be back with you this week talking about high school
homeschooling. But before we get into our
conversation, I would like to thank our sponsor, apologia.
If you're looking for a trusted homeschool resource to support
(00:42):
your child's education with a strong biblical worldview,
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(01:06):
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(01:27):
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Apologia, equipping families, inspiring learners and teaching
truth. All right, Pam, welcome back to
the Schoolhouse Rock podcast. It's so good to have you again.
We had such a great conversationabout multi age homeschooling
(01:49):
last time. So if anyone missed that, I hope
they will go back and catch it. You and I are both very
practical, practical presenters of of homeschooling ideas.
That was a practical filled episode and I hope this one is
too. We're going to turn our
attention this time into homeschooling high school.
(02:09):
I I have been there three different times and have
graduated 3 different kids. You have been there three
different times and you have onemore left to finish.
Why do you tell us just a littlebit about homeschooling, high
school and what that's looked like in your family?
Yeah, so I was a high school teacher and back before I
(02:32):
started homeschooling, and I have to say high school has
always been my absolute favoriteage group, too.
I mean, middle schoolers are pretty good too.
I did teach middle schoolers fora while, but I don't know, there
was just something so enjoyable about high schoolers.
They kind of start getting the inside jokes and, you know, they
get, I don't know, I appreciate a finely tuned snark every now
(02:55):
and then. And so they're just a lot of fun
to hang out with, a lot of fun to be with, and a lot, a lot of
fun to learn with. And that's what that's what
homeschooling high school lookedlike for us.
We still did a lot of things together when my kids were in
high school. And so a good part of our day
(03:17):
was still spent learning together.
And we just enjoyed sharing subjects and stories and, and,
and each other all. Yeah.
Well, I would say Ditto. They enter the logic stage,
which is what they're supposed to do.
They enter the independent learning stage, which is what
they're supposed to do. In the high school years, you
(03:38):
really start to see the fruits of all those laborers over the
years. If you've been homeschooling for
a long time, you also begin to see their desires, their dreams,
their, their passions. And in our home school, I really
made some space for that in thatthe day so that they were able
(04:02):
to explore some things of hey, Ithink I'm interested in this, Am
I interested in this? So it just became this beautiful
mix of learning together, watching them grow in
independence, watching them growin maybe what their future would
be or wouldn't be. They would they were deciding it
right in front of you. Watching them mature through
their hormone changes. There's just a a lot that high
(04:26):
school brings. And I think what I'd like us to
focus on today, if you are willing, is taking what a lot of
parents see as a fearful time ofhomeschooling.
And let's give them a lot of fantastic encouragement that
homeschooling the high school years is precious and blessed
(04:48):
and beautiful. And we can do that first and
foremost. Why don't you start by telling
us I, I don't think we talked about this last time and you
know, you hinted that you have three kids, but why don't you
tell us just a little bit of background about where your kids
are right now, their ages and, and that kind of thing.
(05:09):
And then jump into what maybe you feel like was one of your
fears. If you had a fear, and you might
not have because you had high school teaching experience, but
maybe what you've heard as a fear.
Yeah. Oh, no, I had, trust me, fears,
I think. Well, and I think that's The
thing is like it, you know, being apprehensive about
(05:31):
something is actually it. It means that you're thoughtful
about your whole school process.Because if you come in here and
you're not apprehensive about anything, well, then you're
probably not giving it enough thought.
I don't know. But you.
So yeah, definitely had fears. But yeah, I have 3.
So Olivia is 20 years old right now, and she has graduated from
(05:55):
our local Community College. She went and got a certificate
of cosmetology with distinction.We say that's because she
distincts, but, you know, do it.She rolls her eyes at us.
So she did that, and now she's waiting to take her cosmetology
boards. And it's kind of funny.
She's like, I'm not sure I want to be a cosmetologist.
(06:17):
And we're like, OK, OK, well, there's still some money left in
your college fund if you want togo back to school or if you want
to do something else. So she's waiting to take her
boards right now and she's working at a coffee shop and she
really, really likes that a lot.So Olivia's the kind of person
where the environment of where she works is like the number one
(06:42):
thing for her. If everybody there is happy and
it's a fun place to work, then she is going to love the job.
And so we, we're going to have to figure that out for her.
But she spends her extra time, she's writing, she's written 2
novels. So she's working on a novel.
She's doing her art, she's decorating, she's doing some
decorating of her room. And she's saving her money
(07:05):
because she wants to move out onher own.
And yeah, so it's, yeah, just a lot of fun.
And then John is my second graduate.
He graduated just this past year.
He's 18 and he has, he is planning on starting Community
College. He's taken a gap semester.
He's planning on starting Community College and doing, I
(07:26):
think it's a digital arts program.
It's like the newest, it's like the new graphic design, you
know, but it's, it's got like 3Dmodeling and photography and
video and all of this stuff in there.
So that's what he's interested in.
That's what he wants to do. But he has been working at a
(07:47):
local food truck since he was 14years old and he is now the food
truck manager. And so he works there a number
of hours a week and, and really enjoys that.
And then my youngest, that's Thomas.
He is 15. He'll be 16 in the fall.
And he's very active in Civil Air Patrol.
(08:09):
And he's going to three camps this summer.
He's at an engineering camp right now.
He's got one more engineering camp in August.
And yes, I'm counting those daysas school days.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. That's a lot of schooling.
OK, before we talk about the fears, I heard one in there that
(08:29):
I know people are going to say, oh, please talk about that
because that is a huge fear. And that is the idea that Olivia
has gone to school. And now it's kind of like, oh,
no, I'm not sure I want to do this.
And I just want to encourage everybody.
I also had a daughter who got a bachelor's degree in something.
(08:52):
She is kind of sort of doing that now, but it took her a
couple of years to to go. Oh, do I really want to do this
now that I'm out? So I want to talk about a fear
that I know our listeners probably have, and that is.
But what if my high schooler doesn't know what they want to
do? Well, I so it, this is what
we've told Olivia. First of all, it's not like she
(09:13):
went and got a medical degree and decided she didn't want to
do it right. So we'd be in for a lot more
than And so it's totally OK. And it was always an option that
she could continue going to Community College if she didn't
want to. We're big fans of Community
College here. Not to say that if anyone kid
didn't want to start there, thatwe would be completely against
(09:34):
it, but we're big fans of it because we both did it.
So that's the first thing. It's like, you know it, she
could go back to school. Some of her stuff would transfer
into her going on and getting another degree.
The other thing is neither one of us, the first year out of
college, neither myself nor my husband did the thing that we
went to school for. You know, I worked in a pool
(09:57):
store my first year before I waslike, yeah, I guess I am
actually going to have to go teach to pay back my
scholarship. And then I ended up doing the
thing I'm doing now. I love to tell my kids was not
even invented when I came out ofhigh school, right?
If somebody had took 18 year oldme aside and said, you know,
(10:18):
you're going to be an author whoself publishes books and you're
going to be a podcaster and you're going to sell digital
products and courses on this thing called the Internet, I
would be like, OK. Right.
Right. So who knows all these years
from now what it is they're going to be doing.
So there's no reason to get scared or worked up about this
because, like, you just don't know where life is going to take
(10:42):
you. Yeah.
So that's the first thing. Then the second thing I'm going
to say is what we tell moms going into.
We have a program called Navigating High School, which is
basically how to do all the highschool things.
And it really starts with mindset.
And then we get into all the really practical things.
We have, you know, a whole module on what do you do if my
kid wants to go in the military or play NCAA sports or, you
(11:05):
know, how do I create a transcript and what's a credit
hour? We have all of that stuff.
But one of the things we talk about through there is #1 giving
your kids ownership over their high school process, talking to
them about what they want to do,and then creating a high school
program that is going to help them accomplish those goals.
(11:25):
And then if they don't know whatthey want to do, then the object
of the game is what we call Don't close any doors.
I like that. You've got this high schooler
who's unsure what they want to do.
Maybe they're even a little unmotivated to do the high
school things. I don't know if anybody else has
ever come up against the high schooler like that, right?
(11:48):
And you're like, OK, I'm like butting heads trying to like,
get this kid into college and hedoesn't even know if he wants to
go to college. So then we say plan for not
closing any doors. So look at places where he might
want to go or she might want to go and say, do we need a foreign
language to get there? You know, or are there options
(12:10):
where we don't have to do a foreign language?
And then you can decide whether or not to do the foreign
language, but we're not going toclose that door.
And so that was kind of the mentality I had going all the
way through high school with my two oldest is let's don't close
any doors, you know, that you might need to still be open.
And that was how we planned fourthings.
(12:32):
Excellent. My third one, he's a little more
like, thank goodness I finally got somebody who's like, this is
what I want to do. And so now I I know exactly how
to plan on my third one, which maybe is a good thing that I
didn't have that on the 1st. Right.
It would have been a little moretraumatizing, yeah, if the first
one had been that way. It's totally normal for kids
(12:53):
this age not to know what they're doing.
And even if they start and regret, that's the coolest thing
we've given them through homeschooling is the opportunity
to know how to pivot well and toknow how to learn and to know
how to figure it out. And that to me is one of the
goals of homeschooling, especially in high school, is I
(13:17):
want you to be a good thinker. You don't have to know
everything right now. You don't have to make the right
decision right now, but you do need to be working towards that.
And if you know how to do that, then it's going to work for you
in the end. And I'll just add, you know, I
also am not doing. I knew when I was six years old
that I was meant to be a teacher. 100% didn't have a
(13:38):
question, but if you would have told me that my teaching today
looks like no sweat, nature study, Internet based classes, I
would have also told you you were crazy because it wasn't
even there was no such thing. And you know, the world is
moving at such a pace right now.I think we just have to, we have
to go into high school saying you deserve a college bound
(13:58):
education. And then what you do from there,
if you take some twists or some turns or even waste a year or
two, it's OK, it's OK. It's all going to be OK.
The only thing I would say to that is if I had a kid who came
to me and it's like, OK, I want,I want to be a cabinet maker.
I want to apprentice under a cabinet maker.
I would not close the college door, but I would allow them the
(14:21):
freedom and the time to do that apprenticeship. 100% and that's
what we did. We actually allowed our kids as
they got into the junior and senior years to choose some of
those apprenticeships or internships or explorations and
things that they wanted to do totry them out for size.
(14:43):
They were still expected to get what what I would call the bare
minimum of a college bound education.
And in that there are a lot of elective options.
And that's where we were like, OK, well you want to do cabinet
making? Yes, I'm going to get you an
apprenticeship for this. So yeah, I think we're talking
the same language about that forsure.
OK, well, what's another fear, especially for a parent who is
(15:08):
just beginning to either think about high school or they have a
new high schooler upcoming? What do you see as one of the
biggest fears they have? So I see one of the things that
a lot of people think is, Oh my goodness, they start this about
the end of 7th beginning of 8th grade.
And it, it kind of can become this big wave that threatens to
(15:28):
overwhelm them in 8th grade, Especially for people who have
done a lot of that multi age family learning as they've gone
along. And they get in there and
they're like, Oh my goodness, I've got to change everything.
Everything that I love about my homeschool has now got to change
and be totally different becauseI'm homeschooling this high
(15:50):
schooler. And what I would say to that is,
no, it doesn't, right? You do not have to turn your
entire homeschool on its head. There's still so much that you
can do. You know it too.
Do what you've done all along. If you've always used literature
based curriculum, there's tons of fabulous literature based
(16:11):
curriculum out there for high schoolers.
You don't have to immediately start using the textbook or
something like that. And so if you still would like
to use a literature based curriculum for history or
something, maybe you do that forhistory and then you use a
science text. But you don't have to throw off
everything that you've been doing and completely and totally
change. The other thing is you don't
(16:33):
have to outsource everything. You know you have that option if
you want that option, if your child wants that option.
But if they don't, there's so much you could do without
putting them in a formal class. You can still work with them,
and you can still teach with them.
Absolutely. You know and learn together.
Yeah, absolutely. OK.
(16:54):
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That's ctcmath.com. All right, Pam, I can hear a
(18:20):
homeschool mom saying, all right, I heard you on this
whole, we can still learn together, but we can do some
textbooks. And I have a kiddo that has
never done a textbook before because we have learned together
or we've done unit studies or this, that or the other.
And it just feels like so much pressure that we must get into a
(18:43):
textbook. So I'd like to know your
thoughts on the must word, and then I'd like to know your
thoughts on how you can move a child towards that type of
learning if you do want them to have some experience with it
before high school. Is over.
Yeah. So I'm going to like, do
something that I think it's going to shock a lot of people.
(19:07):
Olivia had never used a textbook, like, ever.
She left our home school having never done like a traditional
textbook. The closest thing we came was a
science book that they used in Co-op when they were in middle
school or something like that. And we just, we used literature
(19:29):
based learning for almost everything we did.
We used a lot of Guest Hollow and it's all real books for even
things like science and history and stuff like that.
So then she goes to school and she's got to learn how to use a
textbook and she's got to learn how to take tests.
I was not a big test giver either.
(19:49):
You know, I mean, they've done alittle bit, but it was not like,
oh, study the chapter and then we're going to do the test at
the end. There was none of that kind of
stuff. And so she had to learn how to
do all of that. And I would say it took her
about 5 weeks. It took her about 5 weeks that
first semester. And it's not like she was
completely failing. She was just like you could see
her doing the little dance of figuring it out.
(20:11):
And after that first five weeks?She completely and totally had
it and you know, went on to graduate with distinction and so
you know all A's and B's for hergraduation.
And so you know, they learn thatshe was able to to pick it up
and learn it and it took her about 5 weeks to do it so.
Yeah. And if we're talking about
(20:34):
learning as a lifestyle, lifestyle of learning, then what
we're equipping them with, no matter how we're teaching them,
should allow them to pivot. She wouldn't let me help either.
Like once she got into school, actually somewhat to her
detriment, her last semester, she finally got around to taking
her English class. And I, I still don't 100% know
(20:58):
if they like wouldn't let I knowthat.
They said at one point like you can't have another English
teacher look at your paper because she mentioned that to
me. She's like, mom, you're an
English teacher. I'm like, I haven't been an
English teacher in a long time. I'm really just your mom, you
know, So, but they weren't supposed to get help.
But like I told her, I'm like, Iproofread all of your father's
(21:18):
papers when he was in college. Somebody's got to proofread your
paper. And so the first paper she
turned in had not been proofread, and the grade
reflected that. And then she ends up making a 97
in the class by the time the whole class is over, you know,
so she figured out, like, exactly what it was she needed
to do, and she started doing it.And so without my help, even
(21:41):
though I really wanted to help. I know, I love that.
She's like, no, I've got this. I think we can we can probably
walk into some practical tips because I can hear some people
saying, OK, OK, OK, so you guys have resilient kids who can
figure this out, but what did you do to get them there?
(22:03):
So maybe we can talk about that.How do we train up our children
so that when they face a challenge or have to make a
decision or need to write a paper or need to get in a
textbook or how are we creating kids who can think on their toes
like that and figure it out? Well, I'm a big fan of letting
(22:25):
kids work. You mean a job?
Yeah. A job.
Yeah. A job.
Job. Like, this is the real world,
and we're going to put things into practice in the real world.
And so all of my kids have worked since they were.
John was the anomaly. He started at 14, but everybody
else started at, like, 15 or 16.And it means something.
(22:49):
It matters. There are real consequences to
what they're doing because even with homeschooling, I mean,
school itself is 100% sent an artificial construct.
Even homeschooling to a large extent, we create these
artificial constructs within homeschooling, especially when
you're homeschooling high schooland you're trying to put grades
on a transcript and stuff like that.
(23:11):
So like it's, it's a real world thing for them to actually have
a job. Another thing which really
helped Olivia is she took music lessons, but she played in a
band. You know, it wasn't just, well,
I'm doing music lessons over here to do a recital once a
year. She played in the band at
(23:31):
church. And so and then when the music
director leaves, she was the onewho was, there's no other
pianist and she's the one doing it for the entire church, for
the, you know, for Sunday service.
And so those kinds of like meaningful, real world kind of
situations as opposed to just, you know, the thing that mom
(23:54):
makes up up over here that says I have to do a good job at and
it doesn't really mean anything at the end of the day, you know,
So I think that's a hugely important thing is, is anytime
you can put them in a situation where it really counts for
something, other people are depending on them.
Them doing high quality work affects the, you know, what
other people see and get, you know, Civil Air Patrol does that
(24:18):
for my. Young.
Oh, I would say for sure, yeah. Our kids grew up on the farm and
the necessity of jobs and changing gears when, you know, a
fence breaks or a or fence gets knocked over by a cow or a
tractor brakes or something. Those things developed problem
(24:39):
solving skills that were so important.
But even as they got old enough to drive, I said you got to get
off the farm and you got to go work with other people.
And I saw that as a huge maturing point for them both in
how they were able to handle themselves emotionally, problem
solve, work with other people. And I don't think this is just a
(25:03):
homeschooling thing. I think this is all kids that's
this age because it's also promoting independence.
Yeah, I mean, it can be done. We we've gotten some skills
through volunteer opportunities as well.
And but like I said, it's they're not the artificial
construct. It's not an assignment that
somebody makes up that needs to be done just because I say it
(25:24):
needs to be done. It's something that has real
consequences on the other side for someone else.
And so, you know, Olivia was very active in our church.
There was a camp that kids ran for other kids.
It was like a retreat. So they would have to do public
speaking. They would have different roles
(25:44):
that they played. They prepared for it months in
advance and so, you know, that was a very real situation.
So it doesn't have to just be done through a job.
You could definitely do it through volunteering as well.
Absolutely. Or just real life situations in
general. You know, if somebody needs to
put new tile in the bathroom floor, that's a project the high
schooler needs to come alongsideand and help you figure out.
(26:08):
OK, so we're getting close to ending time.
I'm trying to think what the thefearful parent or the parent
just really need some encouragement that this high
school thing is worth it and doable.
What would maybe be one more fear that you can just hear them
exuding through the speakers andthey're saying, oh, please
answer this question. Can you think of anything?
(26:31):
Well, I think there's a, a fear that like, I've never done this
before, like I can't figure thisout.
Like this is going to be, this is going to be the hardest thing
I've ever done. And I don't know, like if, if
you've never homeschooled before, like sure, maybe there's
something out there hard that you've done that we could liken
it to. But I want you to think back as
(26:52):
you have this 8th grader going into 9th grader.
I want you to think back. So when you pulled your third
grader out of school because they were being bullied or when
you were sitting there with thatlittle 4 year old, 5 year old
and you're thinking, oh, like everybody's pressuring me to put
this kid into preschool, but we want to do it here at home.
And you have the 2 year old likehanging on your leg at the same
(27:13):
time. You didn't know how to
homeschool then either. And you put your head down and
you figured it out and you got to be really successful at it.
And it's the same thing with high school.
It's, it's not that different. Like you have to like throw in a
few extra things. But really, remember we talked
about not changing your entire home school.
(27:34):
It's not that different and you can figure it out.
So just like you learned when they were going into
kindergarten, or just like you learned when you pulled them out
of school because of a bad situation, you're going to learn
how to do this too. It's the same process.
You've been through it before, so you know exactly how to do it
(27:56):
right. It's just a few little extra
added on things that you need tolearn.
And I think we. Yeah, we build up high school in
our head as like this big, this big thing.
You've already learned how to dosomething like this once, you
know, and so you can do it again.
Absolutely, and there are plentyof people to come alongside you
(28:17):
to help you with this, whether it's through training yourself
or, you know, classes for your kids.
So to end on that, Pam, why don't you tell us what you have
specifically for parents and high school age students that
could help them in this journey and then tell everybody where to
find you? Yeah, so we've got we've our
premier high school course is called Navigating High School
(28:39):
multiple modules. It was actually me and three
other homeschool moms. So I felt very, it was very
important to me to get multiple voices because there is no one
way to home school, high school.And so I didn't want to put
myself out there as the only wayto do it.
And so my friend Heather Tully, she's a mom of 10.
(29:00):
She's graduated at least four. And then Laney Holman is a mom
of eight. She's graduated four and then
Don Garrett has graduated 3 and then myself, I've graduated 2.
And we all came together to giveyou multiple perspectives
throughout this course. And so we do have a a big
mindset section and then we havea very large practical section
(29:23):
as well, along with a transcriptgenerator that you can enter all
your information into and it spits out this lovely official
looking transcript at the very end.
So we have that and then we havesome of our teens on track
courses which are run through what we call our task card
system. And so basically the way a
teen's on track courses laid outis your kids get the task cards,
(29:47):
which you can edit, and then once a week you meet with them
about the topic and we give you an agenda for that meeting.
And so it's super easy for them to do something like PE or
photography or life skills or something like that while you're
still wrestling a bunch of little ones.
And all you have to do is they check off the boxes and you meet
(30:08):
with them once a week and you know exactly what to talk to
them about. So we have those available as
well, and it's all at pambarnhill.com.
OK, and that's where they can find you on social media as
well, right, Pam Barnhill? Yeah, OK.
Awesome. Well, Pam, thank you so much for
joining us. This has been an amazing.
I hope encouraging episode. I have a couple of things for
(30:31):
folks too that we will try to link in the show notes as well
about planning your home school,your high school years, having a
good solid plan for four years of what you'll do.
And then one about how would youplan a high school semester or
year based on your students interest.
So if there's no curriculum out there, how would you take what
(30:53):
they're interested in and turn that into a legitimate course.
So we'll try to link those things to Thanks for being here,
Pam, you guys, I am Cindy W You can find me at our journey
westward across the board. I'm also missus Cindy of No
Sweat Nature Study and the No Sweat Nature Study podcast.
And we just hope you will join us back here next time for
(31:16):
another amazing host and her guest.
And we'll see you guys soon. Thanks so much for joining us
today for the Schoolhouse Rockedpodcast.
We'd love to hear from you. If there's a topic you'd like us
to cover, reach out to us at Podcast at
schoolhouserocked.com. One last thing, if you know a
friend who would be encouraged by this podcast, please share it
(31:37):
with them. Join us next week for another
exciting episode of the Schoolhouse Rocked Podcast.
Until then, keep pointing your kids to Jesus.
You're listening to the BiblicalFamily Network.
Hey, I'm Miki and I'm Will and we're the Co host of the Culture
Proof podcast. We want to invite you to join us
(31:58):
every week as we discuss what's happening in the world and then
filter those happenings through a decidedly biblical lens.
There are many questions, especially when we see what's
happening in our culture today, but the answers are found within
the Word of God, so that's wherewe want to look.
Amen. When we resist those cultural
trends that rival the truth. We remain culture proof.
(32:20):
We run the danger when we talk about biblical worldview of
keeping it a mental workout, helping the kids, you know,
trace back their beliefs back tohow you know that we can justify
our beliefs through God's word. And that's wonderful.
The problem is if they're not shaped by it, even into their
hearts where it becomes a part of who they are, we're really
(32:43):
wasting our time. Because what what ends up
happening is they they grow up and they say, well, that was mom
and dad's faith that wasn't mine.
And they may have learned all those things, but if it doesn't
hit the heart, we're in trouble.
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