March 20, 2024 • 29 mins
"Anytime you want to teach anything, I recommend that, literally or metaphorically, you use a parable." ~ Andrew Kern
Watch this full interview on our YouTube Channel.
In this episode of the Schoolhouse Rocked Podcast, Yvette Hampton and Andrew Kern delve into the practical aspects of restful education in a Christian homeschool setting. Join them as they discuss the importance of faith, the true meaning and importance of curriculum, ordered classical pedagogy, and proper assessment in equipping children for the battles of life. Discover how to apply these principles to create a calm and purposeful homeschool environment.
Come back tomorrw for the rest of this important conversation.
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Recommended Resources:
Podcast Note-Taking Guide
The CiRCE Institute
The Lost Tools of Writing
Ask Andrew Podcast
Andrew Kern on Classical Education
More Videos from Andrew Kern
Discussion Questions:
1. Andrew Kern talks about the importance of beginning with faith in guiding our homeschooling journey. How does this perspective change the way we approach education in our homes?
2. Andrew Kern emphasizes the importance of governance, curriculum, community, pedagogy, and assessment in shaping practical education for homeschool families. How do these five areas impact the daily life and routine of a homeschooling household?
3. What does it mean to "guard the temple" of our own hearts, as Andrew Kern describes it? How can parents equip their children to do this in the context of their homeschooling experience?
4. Andrew Kern highlights the significance of using parables or embodied teaching to convey truths to children. What are some practical ways parents can incorporate embodied teaching into their homeschool curriculum and daily lessons?
5. How does the concept of assessment and the importance of immediate, practical, spoken, and physical assessment impact the traditional methods of testing and grading used in many educational settings?
6. Andrew Kern discusses the significance of teaching children using immediate, spoken, and physical assessment, avoiding flattery, and trusting children to overcome difficulties and make sound decisions. How can parents implement these ideas into their homeschooling approach?
7. Yvette shared her experience of sitting in a desk for 13 years of her life in a good private school and how all she took away from that experience was her love for Jesus and relationships. How does homeschooling provide a different context and opportunity for learning?
8. In what ways can homeschooling provide a more holistic and faith-centered approach to education compared to traditional schooling settings?
9. How can the principles shared in this episode, such as incorporating faith, nurturing virtue, and equipping children for the spiritual battle, guide the decision-making and daily practices of homeschooling families?
10. Andrew and Yvette discuss the ultimate goal of education being to hear, "Well done, good and faithful servant," from the Lord. How does this perspective shape the priorities of homeschooling families and the values they seek to instill in their children?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hey everyone, this is Yvette Hampton.
Welcome back to the Schoolhouse Rock Podcast.
I am so glad you are back with me and my friend Andrew Kern
today. We are talking this week about
classical education, but kind ofmore so than that, we're talking
about restful education and whatit can look like to keep things
from being chaotic in our world.And and oh man, if you missed
(00:24):
Monday's episode, go back and listen to that.
Because Andrew just, he just brought it.
I mean it was amazing. He was talking just about how we
we live in a world of chaos. But it doesn't have to be that
way and it doesn't have to be that way for homeschool families
and how we can have rest in our education and how we can can
keep more calm. But we're going to talk more
practically about that today. So just hold tight and we will
(00:47):
get there. Before we do though, I want to
say thank you again to our sponsor, BJU Press Homeschool.
If you are looking for textbook type curriculum, anything for
any grade, any age, any subject,check them out at
bjupresshomeschool.com. They will encourage the love of
learning to help your child develop a strong
biblicalworldviewbjupresshomeschool.com.Well Andrew, welcome back to the
(01:11):
podcast. Monday's episode was so much
fun. It was so great recording that
and and talking through we we dolive in a world of chaos and it
is really amazing. We kind of talked in the
beginning about like how God made our brains and how we can
converse with one another and then that kind of morphed into
but chaos, right? That's that's the world in which
(01:33):
we live. We don't have to stay there.
And even if we don't stay there with education, there's kind of
still always chaos going on around us.
So I think it's important to be able to control what we can.
And what I loved about what you said is really what it all comes
down to, is that God is enough. We don't have to have all of the
things, God's word and the Holy Spirit.
(01:54):
God himself is enough. It's really all that we need.
And so I want to, I want to keepgoing down that road.
And I want to talk about what this can look like practically
for your typical homeschool family.
Because it it can get very overwhelming, especially for
these moms who have multiple kids, multiple ages, you know,
(02:18):
multiple grades, and always justfeeling like she can't keep it
all together. And therefore, many of those
moms end up quitting homeschooling and putting their
children back in traditional school because they feel like
they just can't do it any any longer.
So talk to that mom. What?
What do we do? How do we make that?
How do we make it play out in a practical way?
(02:38):
Right. You're asking me to kind of
untie the Gordian knot in a way or?
Or. Or take irreducible complexity
and and make it simple. And the good news of that is
that that's exactly what Christ does.
He does cut the Gordian knot. He does get rid of irreducible
(02:59):
irreducible complexity in the sense of education of chaos.
And that's why I I come back to the what I was trying to say in
the last session is you have to begin with faith.
And The thing is, if you don't begin with faith, then anything
(03:20):
you do isn't isn't going to work.
Even if it works, The better it works, the less it's going to
work in terms of what you're actually wanting to do.
And by faith, I mean really trust trusting him to guide you.
And and I need to emphasize thatbecause without that there's no
(03:43):
point talking about anything practical.
I I I think of it this way, thatit's a very cruel thing to give
a child the law without giving them the temple.
Right in in the old in the Old Testament we see the the the
giving of the 10 commandments. But the 10 Commandments are a
(04:05):
marriage covenant between a God and a people that he's redeemed
and he's rescued from slavery. And now he says we're going to
get married. And this is the kind of
household I'm going to have, OK,you're not going to have any
other husband but me. You're not going to, you're not
going to lie and back bite each other.
You're not going to. If I give something to one of my
children and the other children are not going to envy it, that's
(04:26):
not, those aren't the things that are going to, you're not
going to steal from each other. Those are the those are the
terms of of of living with me. They're not laws, just given
imposing order because God dictatorially says so.
They're all expressions of his love, and they're only given
(04:48):
almost simultaneously with the description of the temple.
And if you don't have the, in this case, the Tabernacle, if
you don't have the Tabernacle where Christ is seated on the
throne, where the cloud of gloryabides, then don't give the law.
That's just cruel. It's just a bunch of rules that
some people have to obey for no reason other than somebody said
(05:10):
so, right. It's got to be a marriage
covenant. And and so you have the temp,
the Tabernacle, right? And then outside the Tabernacle
is the camp. Now life in the camp, that's the
realm of the practical, what we're calling practical life in
the camp is life that's lived right through the wilderness.
For those who who know the Old Testament story, Israel is
(05:32):
rescued from Egypt. God meets them, gives them the
covenant, the law, and gives them a Tabernacle so that he can
meet with them. OK.
And then he leads them across the wilderness to Canaan.
OK, So for us the practical is life in the camp.
How do I get around all these tents?
How do I get along with my neighbors?
How do I make decisions about what to eat and what to drink?
(05:55):
And it's going through the wilderness.
And I want to just say that if you want to read an amazing book
on life in the camp and and the challenges that you confront,
it's the book of numbers. It's astonishing.
And you know what? You know what mostly happens in
in the book of numbers, The people complain.
(06:16):
And that's what happens when youstop looking at the Tabernacle,
When you stop believing that Godis going to lead you through
this wilderness, you are going through a wilderness.
There are serpents and scorpionsin this wilderness.
But the Lord has given the Church the power to tread upon
serpents and scorpions. He's given us power.
When you talk about practical, he's given us the power to go
(06:40):
through this wilderness. Now if you go into the
wilderness and you find a, a, a gang of 20 or 30 people in the
world or maybe there maybe there's even another army out in
the wilderness and they live in the wilderness and that's their
way of living. And you're going, well, I'm in
the wilderness, how am I going to get through this wilderness?
Oh, I'll, I'll listen to people who have been out here in the
(07:01):
wilderness. They're not going to tell you
how you should live. They're not going to have the
vocabulary. You know why they don't have a
Tabernacle. They've never been in the
Tabernacle. All they've ever done is
day-to-day. They've tried to survive in the
wilderness. That's the world today.
They don't have a a Lord sittingon the throne in the Tabernacle
(07:24):
guiding with this cloud of glory, telling you where you're
going. Well, where you're going tells
you how to live in the wilderness.
And if you. And they're not going to have
vocabulary that works and they're not going to have a
curriculum that works and they're not going to have modes
of assessment that work. And when we talk about practical
in in education, I would say there's four areas where we need
(07:45):
to get very, very careful about day-to-day life.
The 1st is governance. Now the homeschooling mom might
be saying what are you talking about governance.
What does it have to do with my home?
I'll come back to that. But if you want order, you need
to govern. OK, second, the curriculum.
And again I have problems with the word curriculum, but I won't
dwell on that here. It's a it's a recent word.
(08:07):
It's not a believe it or not it's not a classical word.
It comes from the Latin but it but it's a it's 16th, 17th
century so there's the but there's what you teach, OK.
The journey that you go on through the wilderness.
OK, And then next, that's the second of the four practical
areas, governance. Now I'm going to say 5.
There's also community. So there's community,
(08:28):
governance, the journey, the curriculum, and then there's
teaching pedagogy, if you want that word, which is his theory
of teaching. So how are you going to teach?
So if you want, you can say whatyou can teach is the curriculum,
What you're going to teach is a curriculum, and how you're going
to teach is pedagogy. And then, crucially, please
don't miss this one crucially assessment.
(08:50):
How you assess is is utterly determinative.
If what you're doing is taking other people from the
wilderness, if you're taking their modes of assessment for
how to survive in the wilderness, you will not assess
your children the best possible ways.
And to well, to give examples ofthat in the modern world,
(09:11):
there's this big fight going on right now and it drives me
crazy. I can't figure out which side to
go on ever on this point, 'causeI know what I believe, but the
sides don't. So, so, so 30 years ago, well,
it's standardized testing. OK, so 30 years ago,
conservatives were opposed to standardized testing for the
most part. And the liberals wanted it
(09:33):
because it was good for race equality.
Racial that was the purpose of it.
Maybe not 30 years ago, maybe longer, but the racial equality
was one of the motivations and and equal access was one of the
motivations for standardized testing.
Well, standardized testing is just a bad idea.
I don't care what it's for. It doesn't work.
(09:54):
OK. And so then what happens is it's
there, it's the gorilla in the room, and everybody's worried
about standardized testing. So what I want to start with on
the practical is rethink the wayyou assess your child's work.
OK, Remember that. Well, let me put it in a
question for me. If your child had a soul, would
(10:18):
that affect the way you assess his work?
Sure. Would it affect the way you
teach? Would it affect the curriculum,
Right, if your child is the image of God as opposed to an
accident or your own personal creation, right.
If your child was the image of God, would that affect the way
you teach your child? I would like to think it would,
(10:41):
but the assessment is the Whoever assesses you as your
boss and who are you submitting to?
Are you governed by college admissions officers?
Those people don't like your children.
They just like your money. I'm generalizing.
Of course, there are some that are very good, those people.
A better way to put it is those people are indifferent to your
(11:03):
children. What they're what they're
interested in is getting students in their schools,
right? There's a system trying to put
people into a system. Is it the SAT?
The the College Board? Are they the ones who govern
your school? And notice how that stuff is so
far off and so abstract. And it's like they're promising
an Oasis in the wilderness. Maybe you might get to this
(11:24):
Oasis someday, but what if you want to get to the other side of
the wilderness and enter a land flowing with milk and honey?
What if you want to get to the promised land?
What if you want your soul's, your child's soul to be to
become Christ? Like you're going to assess
differently now. It's not.
It's not that you know, it's radically well, it's radically
(11:47):
different. And it's not.
Because, interestingly, it's theonly practical way to assess
what a child will respond to is praise and blame, honor and
shame, right? And So what you do is when your
child does something well, you say well done.
And when your child does something badly, you say fix
(12:09):
that and you don't flatter. God says give honor to whom it
is due. That's how assessment is guided.
Give honor to whom it is due. If your child has not done good
work, or if your child has not done something correctly, don't
tell him he did. And don't don't treat your
child. This is crucial.
(12:29):
It's not that you need to trust God only.
You also need to trust your child.
Because because a lot of it's it's hard for a mom sometimes to
trust her children. Because you see all the
terrifying things out in the wilderness.
You see all the serpents and scorpions, and your child starts
walking out there and you're going don't, don't.
And then you know what? What happens then is they absorb
(12:51):
your anxiety into themselves andthey go out there not believing
in themselves because you didn'tbelieve in them.
And this is a crucial point. They have to believe that they
can overcome difficulties. They have to believe that they
can make sound decisions. They have to believe that they
have within them the resources to live this life.
(13:14):
Now some of you are saying, well, but they don't.
They're totally depraved or they're fallen.
Yeah, but they have. Christ and and Christ is
actively nurturing and and equipping them.
You know what the word instruction means, by the way?
It's really interesting instruction.
It's Latin instructus. It's a military term.
(13:38):
There's two uses for it, as I understand it.
One is it's the equipment that you need to fight in a battle,
your sword and your armor. So when you get, when you put
everything on and fill your kit with your food and everything
you are now Instructus, you're instructed, OK.
And then the second, the second meaning of it is when all the
armies are in formation and thenyou and then you move them into
(14:02):
battle formation, that's instruct and instruct us.
So it's it's they're both military turns, but they both
have to do with getting through the wilderness, right?
Being ready for the battle. OK, what we are, what we aren't.
We are not trying to raise children to be mentally well
adjusted and comfortable people.We're trying to equip them for
battle. Right.
(14:22):
And and you as and and homeschool moms have taken on
that battle themselves, right? The same confidence that you
showed in the Lord when you started to homeschool.
Show that in the Lord in your child, and teach your child how
to battle in the wilderness. But then trust them to go out
and and and be able to handle the battles that they're going
(14:44):
to enter into. Now there's judgment involved.
I understand there's some battles they shouldn't enter
into you, you know, you got to train them before you send them
into battle. So I'm not being, I'm not being
glib here. You have to equip them, but you
have to equip them. And how you assess them is
either is going to be based on what you're equipping them for.
And again, if you're trying to equip them so that they can go
(15:06):
out into the wilderness and findan Oasis and settle down, then
that assessment isn't going to be good.
But if it has to do with actually becoming Christ like
and being equipped with wisdom and virtue, then what matters?
The assessment that matters is immediate, practical, spoken,
even physical assessment that says nice job, well done, good
(15:28):
and faithful servant, and sometimes putting your hand on
their shoulder, sometimes crowning them.
I mean, one of the things that I'm a big fan of Charlotte
Mason, and one of the things shetalks about in her philosophy of
education is, is the freedom that you get when you know
truth. And she says when they're free,
(15:49):
you can't regulate their freedom, right?
You don't now tell them what to do with the freedom they've got,
because then they're not free anymore.
You give them the freedom that knowledge gives them, and then
you let them go and do what they're going to do with it.
And if they choose not to do anything with it, that's their
choice. But you have crowned them.
You have made, you have expandedtheir dominion.
You have made them master of more of what they're supposed to
(16:11):
master. And now you set them free and
say it's yours, go do what you want with it.
Right. And you're trusting them to use
it according to, well, they've mastered it, so they know what
it's for. Just like if you, you know, you
learn a piano, you know what to do with the piano once you've
mastered it. Until then, you don't.
You just kind of bonk on the keys and create chaos.
Yeah. Yeah, it's such good stuff.
(16:34):
It it it as you're talking, I'm thinking of Ephesians 6.
You know, just putting on that full armor.
Of God and that's. What God calls us to do so we'll
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apologia Discover apologia Todayat apologia.com we are back with
Andrew I I'm almost speechless. I'm not speechless, but I'm
trying to gather my thoughts here.
As you were talking before the break, we're really talking
about equipping our kids. And we've often on this podcast
(18:19):
talked about Ephesians 610 through 20 putting on the full
armor of God, And that's essentially what you're talking
about, is putting that armor on our kids, training them for
battle, training them in righteousness.
So let's talk a little bit. We have a few minutes left.
Just more practically, what is this look like day-to-day for
the homeschool mom? So one thing I love about the
(18:41):
Armor of God is is, you know, ifyou go to a Christian store,
it'll sell little Roman soldiers.
The armor of God passage is not describing Roman soldiers.
It's describing temple guardians.
OK. And so.
So what you're equipping a childto do is to guard the
Tabernacle, to guard the temple,which is their own heart.
OK. And so how do you do that?
(19:01):
Well, if if assessment is such abig deal, and I think it is, our
Lord ultimately is going to say well done or depart from me,
right? Yeah, and and and if that's the
basic way, we aren't we honor them is by giving them honor
when it's due but not when it's not.
And avoiding flattery completely.
How do we teach them? How do we how do we equip them
(19:24):
with the armor? Well, I think even here it's
it's our Lord makes it in a sense, so simple.
He shows us how to teach. It's always been amazing to me
how little time we spend in teachers, colleges, even at
Christian universities or Christian books on education,
How little time they spend making the point that parables
really work well, right? Any, any, any time you want to
(19:47):
teach anything, I recommend thatliterally or metaphorically, you
use a parable. And this is what I mean.
Another way to put it would be this.
When God wanted to reveal himself to us, how did he do it?
The best way possible. He's wise.
He did it by taking on a body, by incarnating.
(20:10):
Now, if you want to teach anything to your child, and you
want to teach it effectively, that's what you should do.
You should give it a body. Let's say you want to teach 3 +
2 = 5. That's an immaterial idea,
right? It's in the head, it's in the
world, but it's but it's not embodied and therefore they
can't. They can't understand it.
(20:30):
So what should you do? You should take 3 little teddy
bears and two little teddy bearsand put them together and have
them find 5 teddy bears. What have you just done?
Imitated Christ. You've incarnated a Logos.
Not the Logos, but a Logos, an idea, a message, a word, a
truth, right? And when you do that, they learn
how to do it. I don't care what you're
(20:51):
teaching. It's always not going to say
easy, but it's always that simple.
That's always the one thing needful is Christ.
And so if you're teaching a verycomplicated philosophical
concept like being, good luck. But you shouldn't do that to
anybody younger than 40. But if you're going to do that,
the way you're going to do it isby embodying it, right?
(21:14):
First you're gonna have to teachthem geometry.
I mean a a turning point in my life was when I learned what a
point was in geometry, which is something that doesn't have any
parts. I mean that changes your brain
when you when you absorb that and you can't even give examples
of something that doesn't have parts.
So. So all you can do is give
negative examples. You keep taking away parts, but
you still the the way we learn as as humans, as the image of
(21:38):
God, the way an image learns is through images.
OK? The way an image learns is
through incarnation. And so whatever you're teaching,
I don't care what subject it is.I don't care what category of
knowledge we're talking about. Identify as clearly as you can
as well as you understand it. A specific logos small L logos
(22:01):
idea truth OK and and find ways that they can encounter it
embodied. Now if what I mean is not
complicated. If you want to teach them what a
cedar tree is, show them cedar trees and then attach, then do
Genesis 2 and give it a name. Right.
By the way just a fun way to teach is often I like, I liked
(22:23):
when I was in school, I like to have kids make up the names for
things and and have like the as a class they would make up names
because that's what God made us to be able to do.
We like making up names. OK And then I would say those
are good names. Which which one do we like the
best? And then we might pick one as a
class and then I'd say you can use that.
That's great. I'll tell you what scientists
(22:43):
call it or you know, whatever. And then then they're engaged in
the act of naming, which makes them see the thing, right,
because they're seeing it Incarnate.
And then they are making up, I call it an imitative logos, a
mimetic Logos for the logos, thecreated logos that God spoke.
Right. So sorry, that just got too the
(23:04):
point. The point is that no matter what
it is you're teaching, it's the truth.
Otherwise, you shouldn't teach it.
And if you want them to see a truth, show it to them, right?
Give it, give it an Incarnate form, and then multiple examples
of Incarnate forms, and then have them look at each of those
Incarnate forms. Then they will think, and you
just get them to compare. And it's astonishing how much
(23:26):
gets done in that, How simple the soul learns when when you do
that. Yeah, yeah.
It makes education so much more fun than sitting at a desk with
a textbook open in front of you.Hold on.
Hold on. Answer all the questions.
You just said a terrible thing. You just implied that sitting at
a desk with a textbook open answering questions could
(23:48):
possibly be called education. That's not education.
That's. Not education.
I I am offended. Yeah.
You know, it's it's, it's funny,I I man, maybe I shouldn't go
here, but I sat in a desk for what, 13 years of my life in in
(24:10):
a good private school. The good thing about the private
school is what I pulled out of it was my love for Jesus.
And I really did. I mean, I I did learn stuff, you
know. But when I think about like my
science classes and history classes and and things like
that, I I remember almost nothing.
What I do remember is learning how to study the word of God,
and that's what I took out of it.
(24:31):
And I took relationships and community and and those things
away from it. Most of what I know, my the
knowledge that I have, is stuff that I've learned in my adult
life. And most of what I've learned in
my adult life has been because I've homeschooled my girls.
Well, the great We've learned ittogether.
Sorry. No, that's OK.
The great thing about that is that you got the most important
thing from your school. Then the pressure isn't
(24:54):
unimportant just because it's less important.
Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It all goes back to the only thing that truly matters.
And and I've said this so many times on the podcast, ultimately
what matters is that when we come face to face with our Lord,
he's either going to say well done, good and faithful servant,
or depart from me. I never knew you, just as you
said, that's what I care about. When it comes to my girls.
(25:17):
That's all I care about. I don't care about their
transcript. I really don't.
I couldn't care less about what,you know, how many credits they
have for this and that. And I I mean, we, we have a
transcript for them because it'srequired of us.
But I don't care about that because God's not going to ask
them to show them, to show him their transcript when when they
come face to face, he is going to say, what did you do with my
(25:39):
name? How did you serve me?
How did you live out the purposethat I put you on this earth
for? That's what he cares about.
And then as their mom, I'm responsible to be able to answer
how I lived out my purpose. And one of my purposes is to
show my kids the love of Jesus and to put that armor on them
and to teach them to love and serve him.
So anyway, so much more to talk about, but we're out of time.
(26:00):
We're going to come back tomorrow, continue on with this
conversation. Andrew, thank you for being with
us again today. The website is the, is it Cersei
institute.org? Correct.
All right, We'll put that link in the show notes.
You can find out more about Andrew Kern and the Cersei
Institute there. They've got tons and tons of
great stuff. We'll talk a little bit more
about that tomorrow as well. Thank you guys so much for
(26:20):
listening. If you are watching this on
YouTube, would you make sure that you like and subscribe to
this video and then share this podcast and share these videos
with your friends? I know that is an encouragement
to them and it's an encouragement to us and I do
that when I listen to really great podcasts and and
different, you know, watch different YouTube videos and
stuff. I will share them with my
friends. Because you know, I I want my
(26:42):
friends to be excited about the same things I'm excited about
and to learn the things that I'mlearning.
And so that is a great help to us.
Again, you can find everything at our website at
schoolhouserock.com. Have a great rest of your day.
Stay tuned at the very end, hearwhat's coming up next on the
podcast and we will see you backhere tomorrow.
Bye As parents, our greatest hope is that our kids will grow
(27:07):
up to be followers of Jesus Christ and live out God's call
on their lives. But you also know the world
makes it challenging to follow Christ faithfully.
That's why I'm so excited about Summit Ministries.
Their student conferences give teens and young adults reasons
to trust the biblical foundationyou've laid for them.
Our oldest daughter, Brooklyn issuper excited to go this summer,
(27:29):
and if you have a child ages 16 to 22, they can attend a Summit
Ministries student conference this summer as well.
Get a $200 discount on their in person conference by using Code
Schoolhouse 24 at checkout and receive an additional $200 off
with their early bird discount when you register by March 31st.
(27:51):
Visit summit.org/schoolhouse to learn more.
That's summit.org/schoolhouse. I don't like simply saying
there's this scope and sequence that we have to develop based on
nothing, based on expectations from the world around us, based
(28:13):
on the need to impose order and chaos, and then that's the
curriculum. Under a curriculum, what you
teach is whatever the textbook tells you to teach.
In other words, you're a slave to the textbook publishing
company. Instead, we should be giving
them. Again, I love Charlotte Mason,
and she talked about living books, right?
We we should be. We should be giving them
resources that are a banquet, that feed and nourish their
(28:36):
soul. And I want to just make this
point as vividly as I can. What we're trying to do is
cultivate wisdom and virtue in our children, because that's
what they need, not graves. And So what will?
What will cultivate? What will nourish their souls,
The true, the good and the beautiful?
Or, if you like, expand it, likePaul did in Philippians 48.
(28:57):
Whatever is true, whatever. Whatever is noble, whatever is
just, whatever is good, whateveris in good report.
And so on. That's the curriculum.
Hey everyone, this is Yvette Hampton.
Welcome back to the Schoolhouse Rock Podcast.
I am so glad you are back with me and my friend Andrew Kern
today. We are talking this week about
classical education, but kind ofmore so than that, we're talking
about restful education and whatit can look like to keep things
from being chaotic in our world.And and oh man, if you missed
(00:24):
Monday's episode, go back and listen to that.
Because Andrew just, he just brought it.
I mean it was amazing. He was talking just about how we
we live in a world of chaos. But it doesn't have to be that
way and it doesn't have to be that way for homeschool families
and how we can have rest in our education and how we can can
keep more calm. But we're going to talk more
practically about that today. So just hold tight and we will
(00:47):
get there. Before we do though, I want to
say thank you again to our sponsor, BJU Press Homeschool.
If you are looking for textbook type curriculum, anything for
any grade, any age, any subject,check them out at
bjupresshomeschool.com. They will encourage the love of
learning to help your child develop a strong
biblicalworldviewbjupresshomeschool.com.Well Andrew, welcome back to the
(01:11):
podcast. Monday's episode was so much
fun. It was so great recording that
and and talking through we we dolive in a world of chaos and it
is really amazing. We kind of talked in the
beginning about like how God made our brains and how we can
converse with one another and then that kind of morphed into
but chaos, right? That's that's the world in which
(01:33):
we live. We don't have to stay there.
And even if we don't stay there with education, there's kind of
still always chaos going on around us.
So I think it's important to be able to control what we can.
And what I loved about what you said is really what it all comes
down to, is that God is enough. We don't have to have all of the
things, God's word and the Holy Spirit.
(01:54):
God himself is enough. It's really all that we need.
And so I want to, I want to keepgoing down that road.
And I want to talk about what this can look like practically
for your typical homeschool family.
Because it it can get very overwhelming, especially for
these moms who have multiple kids, multiple ages, you know,
(02:18):
multiple grades, and always justfeeling like she can't keep it
all together. And therefore, many of those
moms end up quitting homeschooling and putting their
children back in traditional school because they feel like
they just can't do it any any longer.
So talk to that mom. What?
What do we do? How do we make that?
How do we make it play out in a practical way?
(02:38):
Right. You're asking me to kind of
untie the Gordian knot in a way or?
Or. Or take irreducible complexity
and and make it simple. And the good news of that is
that that's exactly what Christ does.
He does cut the Gordian knot. He does get rid of irreducible
(02:59):
irreducible complexity in the sense of education of chaos.
And that's why I I come back to the what I was trying to say in
the last session is you have to begin with faith.
And The thing is, if you don't begin with faith, then anything
(03:20):
you do isn't isn't going to work.
Even if it works, The better it works, the less it's going to
work in terms of what you're actually wanting to do.
And by faith, I mean really trust trusting him to guide you.
And and I need to emphasize thatbecause without that there's no
(03:43):
point talking about anything practical.
I I I think of it this way, thatit's a very cruel thing to give
a child the law without giving them the temple.
Right in in the old in the Old Testament we see the the the
giving of the 10 commandments. But the 10 Commandments are a
(04:05):
marriage covenant between a God and a people that he's redeemed
and he's rescued from slavery. And now he says we're going to
get married. And this is the kind of
household I'm going to have, OK,you're not going to have any
other husband but me. You're not going to, you're not
going to lie and back bite each other.
You're not going to. If I give something to one of my
children and the other children are not going to envy it, that's
(04:26):
not, those aren't the things that are going to, you're not
going to steal from each other. Those are the those are the
terms of of of living with me. They're not laws, just given
imposing order because God dictatorially says so.
They're all expressions of his love, and they're only given
(04:48):
almost simultaneously with the description of the temple.
And if you don't have the, in this case, the Tabernacle, if
you don't have the Tabernacle where Christ is seated on the
throne, where the cloud of gloryabides, then don't give the law.
That's just cruel. It's just a bunch of rules that
some people have to obey for no reason other than somebody said
(05:10):
so, right. It's got to be a marriage
covenant. And and so you have the temp,
the Tabernacle, right? And then outside the Tabernacle
is the camp. Now life in the camp, that's the
realm of the practical, what we're calling practical life in
the camp is life that's lived right through the wilderness.
For those who who know the Old Testament story, Israel is
(05:32):
rescued from Egypt. God meets them, gives them the
covenant, the law, and gives them a Tabernacle so that he can
meet with them. OK.
And then he leads them across the wilderness to Canaan.
OK, So for us the practical is life in the camp.
How do I get around all these tents?
How do I get along with my neighbors?
How do I make decisions about what to eat and what to drink?
(05:55):
And it's going through the wilderness.
And I want to just say that if you want to read an amazing book
on life in the camp and and the challenges that you confront,
it's the book of numbers. It's astonishing.
And you know what? You know what mostly happens in
in the book of numbers, The people complain.
(06:16):
And that's what happens when youstop looking at the Tabernacle,
When you stop believing that Godis going to lead you through
this wilderness, you are going through a wilderness.
There are serpents and scorpionsin this wilderness.
But the Lord has given the Church the power to tread upon
serpents and scorpions. He's given us power.
When you talk about practical, he's given us the power to go
(06:40):
through this wilderness. Now if you go into the
wilderness and you find a, a, a gang of 20 or 30 people in the
world or maybe there maybe there's even another army out in
the wilderness and they live in the wilderness and that's their
way of living. And you're going, well, I'm in
the wilderness, how am I going to get through this wilderness?
Oh, I'll, I'll listen to people who have been out here in the
(07:01):
wilderness. They're not going to tell you
how you should live. They're not going to have the
vocabulary. You know why they don't have a
Tabernacle. They've never been in the
Tabernacle. All they've ever done is
day-to-day. They've tried to survive in the
wilderness. That's the world today.
They don't have a a Lord sittingon the throne in the Tabernacle
(07:24):
guiding with this cloud of glory, telling you where you're
going. Well, where you're going tells
you how to live in the wilderness.
And if you. And they're not going to have
vocabulary that works and they're not going to have a
curriculum that works and they're not going to have modes
of assessment that work. And when we talk about practical
in in education, I would say there's four areas where we need
(07:45):
to get very, very careful about day-to-day life.
The 1st is governance. Now the homeschooling mom might
be saying what are you talking about governance.
What does it have to do with my home?
I'll come back to that. But if you want order, you need
to govern. OK, second, the curriculum.
And again I have problems with the word curriculum, but I won't
dwell on that here. It's a it's a recent word.
(08:07):
It's not a believe it or not it's not a classical word.
It comes from the Latin but it but it's a it's 16th, 17th
century so there's the but there's what you teach, OK.
The journey that you go on through the wilderness.
OK, And then next, that's the second of the four practical
areas, governance. Now I'm going to say 5.
There's also community. So there's community,
(08:28):
governance, the journey, the curriculum, and then there's
teaching pedagogy, if you want that word, which is his theory
of teaching. So how are you going to teach?
So if you want, you can say whatyou can teach is the curriculum,
What you're going to teach is a curriculum, and how you're going
to teach is pedagogy. And then, crucially, please
don't miss this one crucially assessment.
(08:50):
How you assess is is utterly determinative.
If what you're doing is taking other people from the
wilderness, if you're taking their modes of assessment for
how to survive in the wilderness, you will not assess
your children the best possible ways.
And to well, to give examples ofthat in the modern world,
(09:11):
there's this big fight going on right now and it drives me
crazy. I can't figure out which side to
go on ever on this point, 'causeI know what I believe, but the
sides don't. So, so, so 30 years ago, well,
it's standardized testing. OK, so 30 years ago,
conservatives were opposed to standardized testing for the
most part. And the liberals wanted it
(09:33):
because it was good for race equality.
Racial that was the purpose of it.
Maybe not 30 years ago, maybe longer, but the racial equality
was one of the motivations and and equal access was one of the
motivations for standardized testing.
Well, standardized testing is just a bad idea.
I don't care what it's for. It doesn't work.
(09:54):
OK. And so then what happens is it's
there, it's the gorilla in the room, and everybody's worried
about standardized testing. So what I want to start with on
the practical is rethink the wayyou assess your child's work.
OK, Remember that. Well, let me put it in a
question for me. If your child had a soul, would
(10:18):
that affect the way you assess his work?
Sure. Would it affect the way you
teach? Would it affect the curriculum,
Right, if your child is the image of God as opposed to an
accident or your own personal creation, right.
If your child was the image of God, would that affect the way
you teach your child? I would like to think it would,
(10:41):
but the assessment is the Whoever assesses you as your
boss and who are you submitting to?
Are you governed by college admissions officers?
Those people don't like your children.
They just like your money. I'm generalizing.
Of course, there are some that are very good, those people.
A better way to put it is those people are indifferent to your
(11:03):
children. What they're what they're
interested in is getting students in their schools,
right? There's a system trying to put
people into a system. Is it the SAT?
The the College Board? Are they the ones who govern
your school? And notice how that stuff is so
far off and so abstract. And it's like they're promising
an Oasis in the wilderness. Maybe you might get to this
(11:24):
Oasis someday, but what if you want to get to the other side of
the wilderness and enter a land flowing with milk and honey?
What if you want to get to the promised land?
What if you want your soul's, your child's soul to be to
become Christ? Like you're going to assess
differently now. It's not.
It's not that you know, it's radically well, it's radically
(11:47):
different. And it's not.
Because, interestingly, it's theonly practical way to assess
what a child will respond to is praise and blame, honor and
shame, right? And So what you do is when your
child does something well, you say well done.
And when your child does something badly, you say fix
(12:09):
that and you don't flatter. God says give honor to whom it
is due. That's how assessment is guided.
Give honor to whom it is due. If your child has not done good
work, or if your child has not done something correctly, don't
tell him he did. And don't don't treat your
child. This is crucial.
(12:29):
It's not that you need to trust God only.
You also need to trust your child.
Because because a lot of it's it's hard for a mom sometimes to
trust her children. Because you see all the
terrifying things out in the wilderness.
You see all the serpents and scorpions, and your child starts
walking out there and you're going don't, don't.
And then you know what? What happens then is they absorb
(12:51):
your anxiety into themselves andthey go out there not believing
in themselves because you didn'tbelieve in them.
And this is a crucial point. They have to believe that they
can overcome difficulties. They have to believe that they
can make sound decisions. They have to believe that they
have within them the resources to live this life.
(13:14):
Now some of you are saying, well, but they don't.
They're totally depraved or they're fallen.
Yeah, but they have. Christ and and Christ is
actively nurturing and and equipping them.
You know what the word instruction means, by the way?
It's really interesting instruction.
It's Latin instructus. It's a military term.
(13:38):
There's two uses for it, as I understand it.
One is it's the equipment that you need to fight in a battle,
your sword and your armor. So when you get, when you put
everything on and fill your kit with your food and everything
you are now Instructus, you're instructed, OK.
And then the second, the second meaning of it is when all the
armies are in formation and thenyou and then you move them into
(14:02):
battle formation, that's instruct and instruct us.
So it's it's they're both military turns, but they both
have to do with getting through the wilderness, right?
Being ready for the battle. OK, what we are, what we aren't.
We are not trying to raise children to be mentally well
adjusted and comfortable people.We're trying to equip them for
battle. Right.
(14:22):
And and you as and and homeschool moms have taken on
that battle themselves, right? The same confidence that you
showed in the Lord when you started to homeschool.
Show that in the Lord in your child, and teach your child how
to battle in the wilderness. But then trust them to go out
and and and be able to handle the battles that they're going
(14:44):
to enter into. Now there's judgment involved.
I understand there's some battles they shouldn't enter
into you, you know, you got to train them before you send them
into battle. So I'm not being, I'm not being
glib here. You have to equip them, but you
have to equip them. And how you assess them is
either is going to be based on what you're equipping them for.
And again, if you're trying to equip them so that they can go
(15:06):
out into the wilderness and findan Oasis and settle down, then
that assessment isn't going to be good.
But if it has to do with actually becoming Christ like
and being equipped with wisdom and virtue, then what matters?
The assessment that matters is immediate, practical, spoken,
even physical assessment that says nice job, well done, good
(15:28):
and faithful servant, and sometimes putting your hand on
their shoulder, sometimes crowning them.
I mean, one of the things that I'm a big fan of Charlotte
Mason, and one of the things shetalks about in her philosophy of
education is, is the freedom that you get when you know
truth. And she says when they're free,
(15:49):
you can't regulate their freedom, right?
You don't now tell them what to do with the freedom they've got,
because then they're not free anymore.
You give them the freedom that knowledge gives them, and then
you let them go and do what they're going to do with it.
And if they choose not to do anything with it, that's their
choice. But you have crowned them.
You have made, you have expandedtheir dominion.
You have made them master of more of what they're supposed to
(16:11):
master. And now you set them free and
say it's yours, go do what you want with it.
Right. And you're trusting them to use
it according to, well, they've mastered it, so they know what
it's for. Just like if you, you know, you
learn a piano, you know what to do with the piano once you've
mastered it. Until then, you don't.
You just kind of bonk on the keys and create chaos.
Yeah. Yeah, it's such good stuff.
(16:34):
It it it as you're talking, I'm thinking of Ephesians 6.
You know, just putting on that full armor.
Of God and that's. What God calls us to do so we'll
talk more about that, but we're going to take a quick break.
We'll be right back. Have you tried CTC math yet with
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apologia Discover apologia Todayat apologia.com we are back with
Andrew I I'm almost speechless. I'm not speechless, but I'm
trying to gather my thoughts here.
As you were talking before the break, we're really talking
about equipping our kids. And we've often on this podcast
(18:19):
talked about Ephesians 610 through 20 putting on the full
armor of God, And that's essentially what you're talking
about, is putting that armor on our kids, training them for
battle, training them in righteousness.
So let's talk a little bit. We have a few minutes left.
Just more practically, what is this look like day-to-day for
the homeschool mom? So one thing I love about the
(18:41):
Armor of God is is, you know, ifyou go to a Christian store,
it'll sell little Roman soldiers.
The armor of God passage is not describing Roman soldiers.
It's describing temple guardians.
OK. And so.
So what you're equipping a childto do is to guard the
Tabernacle, to guard the temple,which is their own heart.
OK. And so how do you do that?
(19:01):
Well, if if assessment is such abig deal, and I think it is, our
Lord ultimately is going to say well done or depart from me,
right? Yeah, and and and if that's the
basic way, we aren't we honor them is by giving them honor
when it's due but not when it's not.
And avoiding flattery completely.
How do we teach them? How do we how do we equip them
(19:24):
with the armor? Well, I think even here it's
it's our Lord makes it in a sense, so simple.
He shows us how to teach. It's always been amazing to me
how little time we spend in teachers, colleges, even at
Christian universities or Christian books on education,
How little time they spend making the point that parables
really work well, right? Any, any, any time you want to
(19:47):
teach anything, I recommend thatliterally or metaphorically, you
use a parable. And this is what I mean.
Another way to put it would be this.
When God wanted to reveal himself to us, how did he do it?
The best way possible. He's wise.
He did it by taking on a body, by incarnating.
(20:10):
Now, if you want to teach anything to your child, and you
want to teach it effectively, that's what you should do.
You should give it a body. Let's say you want to teach 3 +
2 = 5. That's an immaterial idea,
right? It's in the head, it's in the
world, but it's but it's not embodied and therefore they
can't. They can't understand it.
(20:30):
So what should you do? You should take 3 little teddy
bears and two little teddy bearsand put them together and have
them find 5 teddy bears. What have you just done?
Imitated Christ. You've incarnated a Logos.
Not the Logos, but a Logos, an idea, a message, a word, a
truth, right? And when you do that, they learn
how to do it. I don't care what you're
(20:51):
teaching. It's always not going to say
easy, but it's always that simple.
That's always the one thing needful is Christ.
And so if you're teaching a verycomplicated philosophical
concept like being, good luck. But you shouldn't do that to
anybody younger than 40. But if you're going to do that,
the way you're going to do it isby embodying it, right?
(21:14):
First you're gonna have to teachthem geometry.
I mean a a turning point in my life was when I learned what a
point was in geometry, which is something that doesn't have any
parts. I mean that changes your brain
when you when you absorb that and you can't even give examples
of something that doesn't have parts.
So. So all you can do is give
negative examples. You keep taking away parts, but
you still the the way we learn as as humans, as the image of
(21:38):
God, the way an image learns is through images.
OK? The way an image learns is
through incarnation. And so whatever you're teaching,
I don't care what subject it is.I don't care what category of
knowledge we're talking about. Identify as clearly as you can
as well as you understand it. A specific logos small L logos
(22:01):
idea truth OK and and find ways that they can encounter it
embodied. Now if what I mean is not
complicated. If you want to teach them what a
cedar tree is, show them cedar trees and then attach, then do
Genesis 2 and give it a name. Right.
By the way just a fun way to teach is often I like, I liked
(22:23):
when I was in school, I like to have kids make up the names for
things and and have like the as a class they would make up names
because that's what God made us to be able to do.
We like making up names. OK And then I would say those
are good names. Which which one do we like the
best? And then we might pick one as a
class and then I'd say you can use that.
That's great. I'll tell you what scientists
(22:43):
call it or you know, whatever. And then then they're engaged in
the act of naming, which makes them see the thing, right,
because they're seeing it Incarnate.
And then they are making up, I call it an imitative logos, a
mimetic Logos for the logos, thecreated logos that God spoke.
Right. So sorry, that just got too the
(23:04):
point. The point is that no matter what
it is you're teaching, it's the truth.
Otherwise, you shouldn't teach it.
And if you want them to see a truth, show it to them, right?
Give it, give it an Incarnate form, and then multiple examples
of Incarnate forms, and then have them look at each of those
Incarnate forms. Then they will think, and you
just get them to compare. And it's astonishing how much
(23:26):
gets done in that, How simple the soul learns when when you do
that. Yeah, yeah.
It makes education so much more fun than sitting at a desk with
a textbook open in front of you.Hold on.
Hold on. Answer all the questions.
You just said a terrible thing. You just implied that sitting at
a desk with a textbook open answering questions could
(23:48):
possibly be called education. That's not education.
That's. Not education.
I I am offended. Yeah.
You know, it's it's, it's funny,I I man, maybe I shouldn't go
here, but I sat in a desk for what, 13 years of my life in in
(24:10):
a good private school. The good thing about the private
school is what I pulled out of it was my love for Jesus.
And I really did. I mean, I I did learn stuff, you
know. But when I think about like my
science classes and history classes and and things like
that, I I remember almost nothing.
What I do remember is learning how to study the word of God,
and that's what I took out of it.
(24:31):
And I took relationships and community and and those things
away from it. Most of what I know, my the
knowledge that I have, is stuff that I've learned in my adult
life. And most of what I've learned in
my adult life has been because I've homeschooled my girls.
Well, the great We've learned ittogether.
Sorry. No, that's OK.
The great thing about that is that you got the most important
thing from your school. Then the pressure isn't
(24:54):
unimportant just because it's less important.
Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It all goes back to the only thing that truly matters.
And and I've said this so many times on the podcast, ultimately
what matters is that when we come face to face with our Lord,
he's either going to say well done, good and faithful servant,
or depart from me. I never knew you, just as you
said, that's what I care about. When it comes to my girls.
(25:17):
That's all I care about. I don't care about their
transcript. I really don't.
I couldn't care less about what,you know, how many credits they
have for this and that. And I I mean, we, we have a
transcript for them because it'srequired of us.
But I don't care about that because God's not going to ask
them to show them, to show him their transcript when when they
come face to face, he is going to say, what did you do with my
(25:39):
name? How did you serve me?
How did you live out the purposethat I put you on this earth
for? That's what he cares about.
And then as their mom, I'm responsible to be able to answer
how I lived out my purpose. And one of my purposes is to
show my kids the love of Jesus and to put that armor on them
and to teach them to love and serve him.
So anyway, so much more to talk about, but we're out of time.
(26:00):
We're going to come back tomorrow, continue on with this
conversation. Andrew, thank you for being with
us again today. The website is the, is it Cersei
institute.org? Correct.
All right, We'll put that link in the show notes.
You can find out more about Andrew Kern and the Cersei
Institute there. They've got tons and tons of
great stuff. We'll talk a little bit more
about that tomorrow as well. Thank you guys so much for
(26:20):
listening. If you are watching this on
YouTube, would you make sure that you like and subscribe to
this video and then share this podcast and share these videos
with your friends? I know that is an encouragement
to them and it's an encouragement to us and I do
that when I listen to really great podcasts and and
different, you know, watch different YouTube videos and
stuff. I will share them with my
friends. Because you know, I I want my
(26:42):
friends to be excited about the same things I'm excited about
and to learn the things that I'mlearning.
And so that is a great help to us.
Again, you can find everything at our website at
schoolhouserock.com. Have a great rest of your day.
Stay tuned at the very end, hearwhat's coming up next on the
podcast and we will see you backhere tomorrow.
Bye As parents, our greatest hope is that our kids will grow
(27:07):
up to be followers of Jesus Christ and live out God's call
on their lives. But you also know the world
makes it challenging to follow Christ faithfully.
That's why I'm so excited about Summit Ministries.
Their student conferences give teens and young adults reasons
to trust the biblical foundationyou've laid for them.
Our oldest daughter, Brooklyn issuper excited to go this summer,
(27:29):
and if you have a child ages 16 to 22, they can attend a Summit
Ministries student conference this summer as well.
Get a $200 discount on their in person conference by using Code
Schoolhouse 24 at checkout and receive an additional $200 off
with their early bird discount when you register by March 31st.
(27:51):
Visit summit.org/schoolhouse to learn more.
That's summit.org/schoolhouse. I don't like simply saying
there's this scope and sequence that we have to develop based on
nothing, based on expectations from the world around us, based
(28:13):
on the need to impose order and chaos, and then that's the
curriculum. Under a curriculum, what you
teach is whatever the textbook tells you to teach.
In other words, you're a slave to the textbook publishing
company. Instead, we should be giving
them. Again, I love Charlotte Mason,
and she talked about living books, right?
We we should be. We should be giving them
resources that are a banquet, that feed and nourish their
(28:36):
soul. And I want to just make this
point as vividly as I can. What we're trying to do is
cultivate wisdom and virtue in our children, because that's
what they need, not graves. And So what will?
What will cultivate? What will nourish their souls,
The true, the good and the beautiful?
Or, if you like, expand it, likePaul did in Philippians 48.
(28:57):
Whatever is true, whatever. Whatever is noble, whatever is
just, whatever is good, whateveris in good report.
And so on. That's the curriculum.
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