Session Zero University - Intro to Mapmaking with Chip Watchorn - Session Zero Heroes - A TTRPG Actual Play Podcast

Episode Transcript
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>> Skylar (00:15):
Welcome students, to Session Zero
University. My name is Professor Rainier, one of the
many teachers here at the university. But for right
now, I am your orientation
representative. Here at scu. You will
find a variety of professors well versed in the realms
of tabletop role playing games, offering you

(00:35):
their insight on every facet of
TTRPG's. Perhaps you'd like to
take a homebrwing class with our potions
professor or join in on a role playinging
class put on by our theater department. Be
sure to take all your required general education
classes like Character Creation 101,
Intro to World Building, and NPC

(00:58):
Voices for Beginners to help round out
your education. There are also plenty of electives
and intramural opportunities to add some fun and
diversity into your everyday schedule. So get
out there and learn. Whether you'hoping to
graduate with a degree in DMing or playing, it
matters not, there is always room to
grow at Session Zero University.

(01:24):
Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of the Session Zero
University, special series here at Session Zero
Heroes. today is an extra special episode
where I'm going to be sitting down with long term TTRPG
content creator Chip Watchhorn, and he is going to be
talking to us all about his experience with
cartography for TTRPGs, MapKing,

(01:45):
filling those maps, everything like that. So it would be really
exciting for those of you out there that are interested in
creating maps for your own games, to see how
somebody who's been doing it for a long time does it and
maybe some tips and tricks along the way. So, Chip, welcome to the
show.

>> Speaker C (01:59):
Thanks. yeah, I'll do what I can. it's hard to talk about
map making without also hitting on world
building a little bit. And I know, you recently did a podcast
on world building, so I'm not planning on
getting into it too much, but it, like I said, it's kind of hard
to talk about one without the other.

>> Skylar (02:16):
Absolutely, yeah. I mean, you got to create stories and stuff
within your, within your locations and within your map. So, yeah, we'll
definitely do that. So, Chip, just kind of starting off from the
beginning, how, how did you first get into map making when
it comes to TTRPGs? What really sparked that interest and what got
you going with that?

>> Speaker C (02:31):
I, you know, I don't know exactly.
I've always, I've always liked maps. When
I was a kid, I used to have just, maps open
and, and play little fantasy games in my
head, you know, with armies on the maps that I
was just, you know, Messing around with.
But you know, when, when we started playing

(02:51):
Dungeons and Dragons when I was a kid, it was, I sort
of morphed into one of the
main people that was running games,
in my group. And you
know, we need a map. So I just started drawing them.
M. And it was by hand at first. O.
Nice. And so it's. Yeah, that's just basically how
it started.

>> Skylar (03:12):
Yeah, absolutely. And it's really cool that. Yeah. See
those like hand drawn maps. It's like, it's just mind blowing
to see like the detail and the
artistic capability that, that people have
so.

>> Speaker C (03:23):
Well, I don't know that I had that much artistic
capability, but they were maps.

>> Skylar (03:27):
They were maps.

>> Speaker C (03:28):
I actually still have some of my old, you
know, some of the stuff from. Yeah. 25, 30
years ago.

>> Skylar (03:34):
Wow, that's awesome. That's awesome. Well,
and I'm sure everybody appreciated to having some
visual opportunity within the D and D campaign.

>> Speaker C (03:43):
Yeah, a lot of what we did back then was, you know, theater of
the mind. when we first started playing Dungeons the Dragons,
it was pretty much excusensive theater of the mind.
Although we would try to map out dungeons,
you know, as you're going through them.

>> Skylar (03:55):
M. Yeah. So did you focus a lot more on. On
dungeon stuff at back then or was it a mix
of dungeons and like full world maps
or what was kind of the.

>> Speaker C (04:05):
When we first started playing, it was mostly. You were
mostly just running dungeon crawls and. Yeah,
yeah. And you know, you would say, well, we're going back
to town and you know, wherever that was at.
Sure. but yeah, it was mostly dungeon
crawls.

>> Skylar (04:20):
Yeah, absolutely.

>> Speaker C (04:22):
So for our group anyway.

>> Skylar (04:23):
Well, yeah, no, I mean, absolutely. So with your
opinion when it comes to map making within
ttrpg, Stu, what how does
it add to the experience? How would you say that it adds to the
experience or how has it added to the experience in games that
you've run or how can it add to
the experience?

>> Speaker C (04:40):
Well, you know, it really depends
on what you put on on the paper. But
I think it's easier to help people
visualize you distances
and you know, particularly nowadays
when there's much more of a focus on using
miniatures, and then, you know, having, you know, battle
maps, those things. It's

(05:02):
so much nicer to have you
because you have a lot less arguments with players. Well, that's not where I was
standing that, you know.

>> Skylar (05:10):
No, I wanted to be closer. Wanted to be outside
of.

>> Speaker C (05:13):
It's right there.

>> Skylar (05:14):
Yep, yep. Exactly. Exactly. No That's a good point. And with battle
maps, for sure.

>> Speaker C (05:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I, you know,
in that direction, I think it is certainly en.
enhanced play. and, you know, it's
a lot more black and white when you can see it on.
On paper. Although, you know, it
also takes away maybe some of the
imagination.

>> Skylar (05:35):
Sure, that's true. Yeah. When you kind of put things into
perspective of just like a 2D on paper,
yeah, I can see how that would pull away from the imagination because you get a little bit
too focused, especially when it comes to battles on, like, I'm trying to
strategically, you know, oh, I got to be this many
squares. Or if you use, like, the
polygon shapes, away from this
dragon, because if he spews another fire,

(05:58):
it's gonna be a cone this big, and it's good. Yeah. So I can. I can see
how that could kind of take away a little bit. But also, like
you said, reduces arguments
of where you were or where, you know, people, their
abilities would be hitting or not be hitting or whatever the case.
So. So let's, Starting from the kind of the beginning of
the process, when you make a map, where. Where do you
start? Is it something that I kind of need to get

(06:21):
into my campaign planning a little bit first and then go to
maps, or should I use maps as kind of a stepping stone to kind
of help me plan my campaign? Where do you usually begin?

>> Speaker C (06:30):
It really depends on what I'm doing. I've
made several different worlds. I've
started with a village.

>> Skylar (06:37):
Oh.

>> Speaker C (06:38):
You know, and, you know, I've
started a world with just a village and a general idea of
what was around that village and where they were going to.
And those are the only spots I really started with.
and I have started with a
whole world. Not just a continent,
a whole world that was. That

(06:58):
had all of the continents, you know,
at least the outlines of the continents mapped.
and it really. Like I said, it really depends on what you want to do. I
mean, you're a lot more free when you start
smaller because you're not locked into
whatever you've already. You've already
done. And it really depends on

(07:18):
the demands of my players.

>> Skylar (07:19):
If.

>> Speaker C (07:20):
If I'm running a campaign that has players
with multiple races, you got to
figure out, where did they all come from?

>> Skylar (07:27):
That's a very good point.

>> Speaker C (07:28):
And, so a lot of times I'll get input. If I'm. If I
have some ideas like that, I'll get input from my players and say
Listen, give me a little background on your character.
Now, I don't like, you know, I don't
want a five page.

>> Skylar (07:42):
Right, right.

>> Speaker C (07:42):
Backstory. If you write one, great. But
I just want to hate, you know, my character came from
here. And this is why, you know, or
something like that, or. And, you know, I've had people say, well, I don't really
have much of a backstory. And then I'm like, all right, well,
then you're gonna be from this town.

>> Skylar (07:58):
I'm gonna decide your backstst.

>> Speaker C (08:00):
You're gonna be from this town and you're gonna be friends with the other
guy because he's also from that town.

>> Skylar (08:05):
Perfect.

>> Speaker C (08:05):
So, you know, he kind of creates.

>> Skylar (08:07):
Connection with your players and that helps.

>> Speaker C (08:09):
the part, but it also gives you ideas on what you have
to develop to begin with. Because if
you have a guy that, you know, comes from
a Dwarven kingdom and another guy that comes from a Helven
kingdom, and they're both, you know, not right
next to where everybody else is at, then, you know,
you have to have something, you don't have to develop the whole

(08:29):
thing, but you have to have a little bit of background information
on, ah, this is where it was at, at least.
Because unless they got plucked out of there
and have no idea of, you know, and I've
seen campaigns start like that, unless they got plucked out of
wherever they were at and don't know how to get back there, or don't know
where they're at in the world, then, you know, you

(08:50):
have to have some kind of a, relationship with
where things are at.

>> Skylar (08:53):
Exactly. Exactly. Somebody from the elven village has probably
been to the Dwarven or vice versa or whatever the case,
there's a relationship there, or maybe a lack of relationship
there. And then you can stem off of that as the DM
and.

>> Speaker C (09:06):
Yeah, and my style, when
I'm building things, I typically do
more of a, I guess you would say Earth,
like physical properties and things
like that. you have to certainly take into account. I
know they mentioned it on your world building thing,
whether, you know, when you do

(09:26):
political borders and things like that, you know, you
take a look at the geography because that's how
it was decided. And you know, before modern travel and
everything, political borders really were
mountains and rivers and oceans,
because that was a big physical barrier. Now
in your world, if, you know, flying
or something like that is ridiculously common.

>> Skylar (09:49):
that's a good point.

>> Speaker C (09:50):
It makes those borders, you know,
much more negligible. That's a good point. I o.
Always, you know, I've always leaned
towards, you know, the natural
like geopolitical stuff when I'm doing you
borders and things like that. So you know, mountain
ranges, things like that become the
areas that you're. That you're stopping at.

>> Skylar (10:12):
Yeah, absolutely.

>> Speaker C (10:13):
Region. But I've also my worldilling.
I tend to have You wouldn't necessarily call it
low fantasy, but. And I've played in Forgotten Realms and
I've played in know a lot of other commercials.
I don't think I have ever had a place where
somebody could go into a town and go into a shop and
buy magic items. It's just

(10:34):
never been that common in any of my stuff.

>> Skylar (10:37):
Got it. Okay.

>> Speaker C (10:37):
now that's not to say that you know, somebody couldn't develop
that, but it's just,
it's more like, I don't know, Lord the Rings kind of
magic style where people know it's out there,
but it's you know. And again this, you know, try
to relate this back to world building. It really
lends itself more to more Earth.

(10:57):
Like because you don't have any
giant magical things that you have to
contend with that, you know, break all of those rules.

>> Skylar (11:07):
Yeah, absolutely. And it can kind of create a more.
Almost more accessible enemy. Right. Where like a big bad.
Right. It's some individual managed to get their hands on one of
those very rare magical artifacts and now they're
causing all kinds of chaos and havoc because
they have something that not. Is not accessible. There's not
enchanters out there that are just mass producing these

(11:27):
magical weapons all over the place. But I like what, that's a really
good point. and tip for those that are trying to get into
mapk making. Right. Is kind of having this understanding
of. Especially if we look back like in medieval
times. Right. How are they establishing
this is the extent of the township, this is the extent of the
settlement or city or whatever the case. And

(11:47):
like you said, using those natural areas,
those natural like sort of regional borders that you
can kind of use to create a little bit of
limitation within those towns. Right. Keeping it,
keeping it and making rules and such that that would apply
to it. I guess you could say so.

>> Speaker C (12:04):
And when you're doing, when you're designing
worlds that relate much more closely
to Earth.
People accept it.

>> Skylar (12:12):
Right, right.

>> Speaker C (12:12):
It's, it's a lot more acceptable now if you're gonna. You can
have rivers that run uphill if you want.

>> Skylar (12:17):
Sure.

>> Speaker C (12:18):
You know, I Would suggest you have a reason for it.

>> Skylar (12:20):
Right, right. and you know, people understand like the
natural laws. Right. We see it every day when we're
walking around. So it helps to kind of put your players into the
perspective of things to just, to use those,
those rules. And like you said, you can go outside of those.
Why? What's the reason? And that kind of helps you create all kinds
of, again, world building elements and things like that.

>> Speaker C (12:40):
yeah. When I look at stuff like, you know, continents
and I start looking at placing mountain ranges and things like
that, I actually, you know, think back to
when I took geography and high school and college and
you know, plate tectonics and things like that. Mountain
ranges tend to run in where plates are
getting pushed together. and maybe

(13:01):
there's volcanic activity or where plates
are coming apart or you know, things like that.
That's what I think of in my mind because I want it to
be something that when people look at it, they're like, oh,
yeah, I get it.

>> Skylar (13:13):
That makes sense. You know, it's logical. Yeah, I think that's great. Yeah,
absolutely.

>> Speaker C (13:17):
When you look at. I love J R Tolkien, but when
you look at the map of Middle Earth, you know,
he drew it, but I don't know that he had anything in
mind like that.

>> Skylar (13:27):
Right.

>> Speaker C (13:27):
When he drew it.

>> Skylar (13:28):
Sure, sure.

>> Speaker C (13:29):
And there's, there's nothing wrong with that.

>> Skylar (13:30):
Yeah.

>> Speaker C (13:31):
It's just, that's my own personal thing
is, I tend to look at the logic of things and how they
work together or work apart. And I also think
of, you know, when you're placing forests,
or deserts, a lot of times you have deserts on one
side or another of a mountain range simply because
all the moisture is pushed out of it before it gets to one
side or the other.

>> Skylar (13:51):
The laws of nature.

>> Speaker C (13:52):
yeah, yeah. And that, those are the kind of things that I look at.
And there are exceptions to those rules and sometimes they're
magical exceptions. But, you know, when you're
looking at placing all of those major things and
then, rivers, you know, I typically
try to place them where it, you know, when you look at
a map, where it looks like you think they should go
you after you get.

>> Skylar (14:13):
Everything drawn out, mountain runoff that leads down and then
ideally goes into a larger body of water.

>> Speaker C (14:18):
Right.

>> Skylar (14:18):
Things along those lines.

>> Speaker C (14:19):
And then when you're placing settlements, you
have what? Why are they there?

>> Skylar (14:24):
huh?

>> Speaker C (14:25):
Are they out in the middle of nowhere? Because.

>> Skylar (14:27):
Why?

>> Speaker C (14:28):
Why? Yeah, you know, there has to be some accessibility.
Either there's trails or there's roads or there's
rivers and back. You know, I always think
of medieval times. A lot of things were along
some m. Kind of a waterway, because that was the fastest way to
move things.

>> Skylar (14:43):
Absolutely. And you need water to survive, too.

>> Speaker C (14:46):
Right. And in a magical world, you can have other thingsah.
But, you know, I look at those kind of things when I'm placing.
Placing settlements and, all of that.

>> Skylar (14:54):
Yeah, absolutely. There's. There's logic to it. So if
nothing else from this, from this episode, there's nothing else
that you take away from it. It's for those out there that are
in school, pay attention in your geography class, and
that'll help you a long way is when it comes to creating
your maps and creating your cartography for, for your
campaigns. Because there's a lot that you can garnish from that and

(15:14):
garnish from reality that can help inspire
things within your campaign.

>> Speaker C (15:18):
Yeah. And like I said before, you can break
any of those rules and, you know, because of
some magical thing. But when your players ask you, why is this
like this? Have a reason for it?

>> Skylar (15:29):
Absolutely.

>> Speaker C (15:30):
Or, you know, you could just say, well, nobody knows.

>> Skylar (15:32):
Nobody knows.

>> Speaker C (15:33):
You know what? That's something you're going toa make up because they asked.

>> Skylar (15:36):
That's a good point. And it opens up opportunity for them to be like,
well, let's explore this. I want to figure out, is there a
magical stone underneath this waterfall that causes it to
go up instead of down? Let's get a hold of that. That sounds
powerful. You know, so. Yeah, absolutely. And speaking of which, when
it comes to your players, you've mentioned this before,
where you can use their backstories as an opportunity
to kind of help you build your map. are there other

(15:58):
opportunities or other ways that you might use
players to kind of help develop the world as they go along?

>> Speaker C (16:04):
yeah, I've, you know, mostly it's through the
backstory thing. Ah. But if they have some idea
of, you know, a little more of an idea
of, well, what kind of a society is, you
know, your characters at?
Ah, an elf. What kind of a society was,
you know, was it a traditional elven society or.
Or was it something different?

>> Skylar (16:26):
Maybe it's more, kind of like we see the elves in Lord of the Rings, where they have
these, like, big spires and they've built all of this,
you know, ornate stuff. Or is it more of, like, a wood elf type
thing where they live in a more natural environment amidst the
trees, you know, things along those lines.

>> Speaker C (16:39):
I had, one time I had you an idea
for an elven society that was really based
on feudal Japan. you know, I
didn't rob so much of it that they thought it was feudal
Japan, but it was. That's kind of how I
based everything off of. And you know, when you're looking at
placing societies, you also ask yourself,
what are their strengths? What resources do they

(17:02):
have available to them from the maps that
you're making? So like I said before, there's got
to be a reason that they're where they're at.

>> Skylar (17:09):
Yes, absolutely.

>> Speaker C (17:10):
And that reason is. Has to be something on the map.

>> Skylar (17:13):
Yep, that's right. Absolutely. I like how you mentioned the feudal
Japan too, because it also suggests take
inspiration from history. Right. Pay attention in your history
class. I know, there's a lot of authors out there, George R.R. martin, who
did all the Game of Thrones stuff. He
talks about how a lot of the characters in there are inspired by,
past figures from various history. You've

(17:34):
got one of my favorite authors, Brian Jacques
from Redwll, he did all the Red Wall stuff. He's talked about how a
lot of his characters are inspirations from either,
like historical biblical stuff, things along those
lines, which is really cool. So, yeah, absolutely. Use,
use history. Use kind of some of the
conflicts people fight over land. Why are they

(17:54):
fighting over land? That can help you inspire a little bit of your map making
too. What, this area has been taken over by
this, this group or something like that. and how has
that affected things in the meantime?

>> Speaker C (18:05):
Yeah, because, you know, just like modern day, I
mean, every society has resources
that they're willing to fight for. And those
resources are typically natural resources that are available
to them. You know, do these dwarves
have a silver mine that, the orcs want or
do they have whatever

(18:25):
those are the kind of resources that you're looking for. Or is it
some kind of a magical crystal that they're mining, which
you. Again, you can make up whatever
you want. Again, there just has to
be something there that, you may have
a random small settlement because, hey,
they started, you know, cutting down lumber here and

(18:45):
they just figured, you know what, let's just start processing,
adhere to, you know. And so they have a small village
there, and it focuses primarily on
lumber.

>> Skylar (18:54):
But there's a resource associated with it which is logical.
Right. Like you had mentioned before, having the river, it makes
it easier to transport things. And then on the other hand, it's
also, you know, great for survival. And you can have
There's a silver mine. We know, we've been in this m mine, we found
silver, we're going to mine it. That's a valuable
resource. So we're going to stick around here and we're going to mine this silver. So

(19:15):
yeah, I like that. There's, there's logic to.
There's a resource logic to that. Of course, like we
said before, you've got people that might want the resource somebody
else has. So that starts a conflict. That's an
opportunity to start to create story and world build as well.

>> Speaker C (19:29):
So yeah, and sometimes it can be something as simple
as well, we have an in here because
you know what, it's halfway between. You know, it's a two day journey
from this place to that place and this is halfway in between.
And there aren't a whole lot of resources there at all. But
the inn is successful because it's the halfway point. It's
the halfway point, absolutely.

>> Skylar (19:48):
People want to stop and arrest and then they'll continue on the next day.

>> Speaker C (19:51):
Might have a few supporting services because of that.

>> Skylar (19:53):
Right, right, Absolutely, absolutely. So there's a lot of opportunity
to sort of take one point and say this is something that's
here answering whyyat's here and then kind
of following that up with what else needs to be here
for that to make sense.

>> Speaker C (20:06):
Yeah.

>> Skylar (20:06):
Awesome. So, let's dive
into the creating the map itself. So
what are some of the favorite tools or techniques or whatever the
case that you use? whether that be like I prefer to do
it on pen and paper or maybe even digital resources that you like
to use.

>> Speaker C (20:21):
You know, like I said before I started just doing pen and
paper and I still have some of those. but
I went started using digital tools.
I'll be honest with you, I think I bought Campaign
Cartographer in I want to say it was about
2001. So I've been using that for a long
time. and that was their first edition of it. And

(20:41):
I've tried a couple of other tools. I tried I think Dungeon
Draft and Incarnate.

>> Skylar (20:46):
Oh, okay.

>> Speaker C (20:47):
And they're fine. Frankly they're
easier to use. I mean a
lot of the newer tools are more point and click. Campaign
Cartographer has a steep learning curve
and a lot of people don't like
it because of that. But if you put some time in,
I'm on the third edition Camping Cartographer 3

(21:07):
and I now have every resource
that they have available and the amount
of styles that
available for you that you don't have to design. On your own
are just. It's ridiculous the amount of stuff that they
havesolute you can use. It can. With that, you can make
anything from a fantasy world to, you know,
spaceships, whatever you want. And

(21:30):
I don't know, I like it. I'm not by any
means, you know, a professional with
it. I just have a decent understanding of how it works.
And honestly, if I spend.
If I'm away from it from too long and
then go back to it, I have to spend,
some time, you know, reorganizing myself and
kind of. Yeah. Relearning. Oh, yeah, I need to do

(21:53):
this.

>> Skylar (21:53):
Like riding a bicycle. If you stop doing it for like a whole
year and then you come back to it the next summer and you're like, ah, man, I
gotta refill this out and get used to it
again.

>> Speaker C (22:02):
But, but, but that's. That's what I primarily use now as
Campaign Cartographer 3.

>> Skylar (22:07):
That totally makes sense. You know, with anything that's got
more customization to it and more capability to
it, there's going to be a steeper learning curve because you're going to have to figure out how all that
works. So.

>> Speaker C (22:17):
And one thing I should mention, when you're looking at different.
I do. I like to do a lot of writing too. And so
I do that based on, you know, the worlds that
I've.

>> Skylar (22:27):
I do want to write along while you're designing the map, because I
want to know, like, if I'm making this city here, what does it
do? Because I need to be able to reference that. Otherwise my players are gonna
be like, hey, this is a cool city. Let's go here. What are they all about? And you're like,
oh, I don't remember.

>> Speaker C (22:40):
Yeah. And the tools you're using to make
those maps you want to own.
I mean, you want to own that simply because.
Do I have a fantasy that someday it might be published?
Yeah, I do. But, it's not realistic. But
I.

>> Skylar (22:56):
You never know.

>> Speaker C (22:57):
Yeah. But yeah, I would love to have some of my stuff
published. However, some of those
tools that, you know, some of them
require monthly subscriptions, some of them require, you
know, and some of them, you. Whatever
you make up, you don't actually own.

>> Skylar (23:12):
Right.

>> Speaker C (23:13):
so that's something to look at when you're looking at purchasing one.
And that's part of the reason I use what I use, because
when you. Whatever you make is yours.

>> Skylar (23:21):
Is yours. Yep. Absolutelyso nowute.

>> Speaker C (23:23):
You know, sometimes you can find deals on it. I. They've.
They've been running a humble bundle deal on that
that they, I've seen them do something similar
before, but not to the extent that this one was
right. There's no way you're ever going to get that much
stuff for the prices that they were
ask five bucks or something like that. Yeah, I actually used
it to get, I had, there were several

(23:45):
annuals that I had. Hadn't purchased yet
and I did not have the Cosmographer,
which is a program that goes
along with it that will put your world on a
planet in a star system. I didn't have that because I
was doing fantasy stuff and I didn't really need that. Sure, yeah,
for 35 bucks I bought everything
that was, that I still didn't have because mostly

(24:08):
those annuals. I subscribe to the annuals every year and it's
about 30, 35 bucks for one annual.

>> Skylar (24:13):
Yeah, absolutely. And then there's the software too. Cost I think
a good like $40 or so.

>> Speaker C (24:18):
So yeah, normally that stuff I paid full
retail for most of the stuff. And so yeah,
it's a lot of money. But again, if you, you know,
if you're patient and you wait around, you can find, find good
deals on some of that, some of that stuff. But I, you know,
my recommendation is use what you're comfortable with.
Just know what you're getting into. Because you don't want

(24:38):
to get into something and design this
fantastic world and then find out,
hey, I can publish it. And then all of a sudden, oh, this company wants
a piece of it because it's not actually yours.

>> Skylar (24:49):
Exactly. Yeah, definitely make sure to check the terms of
service, be able to understand like exactly how it
all works and what's, yeah, what's yours or what's pre
created assets that you can or cannot publish in
your own name and things like that. So yeah, that is always kind of
the tricky and scary thing. I know people like on
Reddit will ask all the time like, is this mine? Can I use

(25:10):
this? Can I publish this? Can I make money off of it? And then of course
everybody gives the response of well, just to clarify, I'm not a
lawyer, so I can't technically give you the correct
answer here. And so yeah, it's, it's always kind
of a bit of a mess. But yeah, if you check their terms, obviously you
should be able to discern whether or not. And yeah,
ironically, a lot of those more complicated, more
customizable services are us obviously more

(25:32):
expensive, are usually the ones that you
own full rights to anything that you create
which is always good. That's always what we're looking for.
So I guess for anyone out there that's trying to make
their first map, they listen to this episode and they're really
inspired and they say, okay, I'm goingn. I've got a campaign coming up that I'm working
on. I'm go going toa make my first map. What tips
or tricks would you recommend to them?

>> Speaker C (25:55):
I would say you honestly start small,
start with wherever your players are starting
out and don't make any more than you
absolutely have to. Unless. Unless
you really have a great idea of, well, this is the way
I want it to be because your players are going to change
things and they. Anybody

(26:15):
who's ever mastered a game will tell you that
your players are going to change things and they're going to want to go
places that you didn't want to go. Now you can have
ideas for adventures and even have adventures ready
and just pop them in where they're convenient. Oh, you know
what? They're going to go over here. Well, this would be a good place to
put that dwarven mind thing that I wanted them to run

(26:35):
into. And now they're going to run into it because, hey, guess what? They're
walking right by it.

>> Skylar (26:39):
That's right. Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely. Let the
players kind of guide. But yeah, pre write some stuff,
but don't slap it into a specific spot and say this is
where this is going to happen. Because yeah, you can bust it out whenever you need it.
Have the map be kind of a living document
that's being created on the spot. We've talked a lot about
kind of the world building and how the map can affect

(26:59):
the world building, which is really good. What are some ways
that you can kind of create, maybe some
hidden clues or secrets within your map
that might intrigue your players. Maybe like
a location that doesn't already have something associated
with, but something that you can kind of draw your players in and then
create further.

>> Speaker C (27:18):
Oh yeah, you. I make player handouts all the time
and you know, sometimes there are a, a, rougher
version of a map that I have or
really those are the only things I use typically that
will do that. Unless, you know, you plant
a story hook and you know, and they're wondering where
that's at and then you're like, well, you know,

(27:38):
according to local rumors it might be over in this area.
You that'that's what I've done with it. Yeah.

>> Skylar (27:44):
So when you give them these, these handouts,
what I Mean what would all be kind of included on that?

>> Speaker C (27:49):
Depends on who they get it from.

>> Skylar (27:51):
And oh, so you're saying like in game
likeh yeah, o o on who.

>> Speaker C (27:56):
They get it from. And I'm not going to give them something where everything is
named on it. And you know what, sometimes,
sometimes they're not exactly right. They might have stuff in there. You
know, depending on the ability of the mapma maker that
gave it to them. You know, it might
not be a two day journey. It might be a four day journey or it
might, you know, or you.

>> Skylar (28:15):
Could say like with elves maybe they're known to
be faster or something like that. It'like to them it was a two day
journey but for your group it ends up being a week
long expedition.

>> Speaker C (28:25):
Or you know what something there could have been a
natural catastrophe that out wip out a road
between here and there. So you got to find your way.
So you know, it really depends on what
purpose are you giving it through them.

>> Skylar (28:38):
For sure.

>> Speaker C (28:39):
This lends itself well to putting them
into places that you kind of wanted them to go
without them feeling like they're getting railroadd.

>> Skylar (28:47):
Exactly.

>> Speaker C (28:48):
Because they don't necessarily
know what the terrain is gonna look like. They might
think they do right, because they're looking at a map that was
given to them. But you know, ah, they get to a certain point
and you tell them what's on the map or what
they're seeing and it's not what's on the map. So then,
then they start having questions.

>> Skylar (29:06):
Well, absolutely.

>> Speaker C (29:08):
Why, why was't it? Why isn't this right? Well, I don't
know. Maybe.

>> Skylar (29:12):
Or like you said, like there's a natural disaster. Like you can see exactly why
it's not right anymore.

>> Speaker C (29:16):
Well, it looks like there'a big flood.

>> Skylar (29:17):
Y now you got to figure what are you going to do?

>> Speaker C (29:20):
landlide, whatever.

>> Skylar (29:21):
Yeah, I like that. That's our. Really? Because like you said you
DMs always use railroading is always kind of like a
curse word almost when it comes to dming. But
you can railroad in such a way that doesn't feel at
all like railroading. You're not the DM saying. All right, so
you guys go to the next city and they're like well I didn't know we weren't even
done here. Or there were other things that we wanted to do whatever.

(29:41):
Like that's the bad railroading. Right. I'm just
going to slap you guys into this next location because I want to move things along or
Whatever the case. But yeah, sort of using
in game, in world situations that kind
of manipulate them into these different twists and turns that
you want them to take. That's, that's where like the, the
real skill the dungeon mastering is.

>> Speaker C (30:00):
And you can use things, you know, props for that.

>> Skylar (30:03):
Yeah.

>> Speaker C (30:03):
Roll some dice. Oh, hey, there was a landslide
here. you know and you know, maybe you'd already
planned it, but rolling dice makes it look like it's
random.

>> Skylar (30:13):
It's also a good point. Yeah, absolutely. Y.

>> Speaker C (30:15):
You know those kind of things you just throw in there when you need
to.

>> Skylar (30:18):
Yeah, absolutely. That's a, that's a really good. That's
a key tip right there. That's just DMing tip.
Fantastic DMing tip right there. So

(30:47):
what about when it comes to things like
simulating travel and kind of doing the
scaling of a map and things like that? I mean I guess that
probably goes into well, how far do they want to go or anything like
that. But when it comes to sort of that journeying
aspects, they're going from one place to another. How do you kind of
make that interesting that in between time
overland stuff.

>> Speaker C (31:08):
Can be kind of a slog depending on what you're
doing. I ran some people through u.
I can't. I can't think of the name of it. You're going through an island for a
lot of your journey and the mechanics that they
have are really pretty good about. they have weather built
in, and what happens there. There's chances
that you might get lost and you

(31:28):
know as a dm you're keeping track where
they're actually out of the map and they're
keeping track of where they think they're at. Okay.
And those kind of things can add some random stuff in
there. you, you keep them when you're
going all the way across country. It's
not just we spent 15 days doing
this and nothing happened because things are going to happen.

(31:50):
You'renna how are you getting food? How are you.
You know.

>> Skylar (31:54):
Ah. Probably one of the most neglected things that, that
DMs have a tendency to forget about is. Yeah. Are you
eating and drinking as you.

>> Speaker C (32:02):
Need the survival stuff? I don't know. I
haven't done a lot of the overland stuff but
if you intersperse smaller
ye. I guess you'd call them one shots or just you know,
smaller. combat or interactions or
whatever within those and that you have
ready to go. I mean it livens that stuff

(32:22):
up quite a.

>> Skylar (32:22):
Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. So,
when. I mean, in a situation where you had
a full map, right, maybe of the continent that they're on
or an island or something along those lines, how do you kind
of mitigate an idea of players
able. The players are able to look down, they see the map, they
see everything that's on it, versus, well, this is what your characters are

(32:43):
know. Right. Like the metagaming of it. How do you keep them
from. How do you kind of juggle that idea?

>> Speaker C (32:48):
you know, I don't know. I guess I really don't worry about it too
much. The people I've played with
mostly, they don't tend to get
too locked up in the
mechanics of their characters and how everything is
working. They're just going by what you know, what
you're feeding them. But there certainly are situations

(33:09):
where you, where the person may know something.
Like, for example, if you're running, you know,
Forgotten Realms stuff. Well, you know, it's
fair. It's fair to expect that the
guy playing the character knows a lot more about the Forgotten
Realms than their character does.

>> Skylar (33:25):
Right.

>> Speaker C (33:25):
Right. however, you know, you just. You're just gonna have to deal
with it the best you can.

>> Skylar (33:30):
You like? Yeah. Whenever they. They pitch an idea or something like that, you're
gonna be like, well, how would you. How would you know
that? Would you know that? Are you sure? You know, kind of thing.
Som. yeah. Or maybe it's a situation
of like, you don't know that, but you might know somebody that might be
able to give you more details, which would lead you to
understand things a little bit more. Yeah, it's always kind of a trick. Anything. I

(33:50):
know some people, of course, use, like the Fog of War, where even
if you have like a physical map or something like that, digital is
really easy. I know they put that in just about any,
where you can play online. Pretty much every map, you can do
some kind of a cool Fog of War effect. But even in a physical map,
you can just, you know, take some pieces of black construction paper or
something and set it out so that they can't see particular sections, and

(34:11):
that can kind of help mitigate a little bit. But of course, you have that.
That situation where maybe this player knows
about this place or this place
and nobody else necessarily does, and he hasn't
talked to the other players about it yet. So it's like, do I
block it out with the fog, Aw, war. Do I just kind of leave it open or. I
don't know, something along those lines. But I Mean, I guess it's a kind

(34:31):
of case by case basis too. Whatever.

>> Speaker C (34:34):
Again, are they working from a map that you
gave them that was part of you know, something that they got
in game? And some. Like I said,
sometimes those maps aren't terribly accurate. It kind of
depends on what you're doing.

>> Skylar (34:47):
Sure, sure. It actually be kind of a neat mechanic to do to
give each player a blank. Just outline kind
of like what we have here with the coffee stay map. And
then you take like almost like cut out pieces
of paper and put some tape on, like two sided tape on it and
work like stickers. And then they would stick on.
Here are things that I know about based on my character.

(35:07):
And each players of course would be a little bit different. And then
when they go into town and they, you know, ask for some information,
they get like handouts kind of like you said. and those could come
with more stickers because it's like, oh, now you know that this exists
over here or at least you think it does or something like that.
That'd be kind of a be. I might have to keep that in mind because that'd be kind of a fun.

>> Speaker C (35:25):
That'be interesting. Yeah. Or you could even
have just given pieces of the real, you
know, your map just. Yeah. At a time.

>> Skylar (35:32):
Yep, absolutely. So then they all have one big one because I mean they're a party after
all.

>> Speaker C (35:36):
It depends on the people you're playing with. So you know,
I've played with people who honestly
I know I played with groups before that nobody really
wanted to map.

>> Skylar (35:45):
Oh sure.

>> Speaker C (35:46):
And you know what, somebody got stuck with it
and you know they're just doing it because
they don't want to get lost in the dungeon or whatever, you know.
And so it really depends on. You got to
feel your group out and plan accordingly
because if it's going to be something that they don't
enjoy, then obviously you know, you don't want
to. You don't want to do it just because boy you

(36:09):
want it to be realistic or whatever for them
it's, you know, in the end it's got to be a fun
game, right?

>> Skylar (36:15):
Absolutely. Yeah. We've all got like one player that
we all know we can trust to take notes
and everything else. And then you've got like the entire rest of the players who they
just want to like go kill stuff or. Yep. Whatever
the case. And they don't really care that much. But yeah, that's always kind
of a tricky, tricky toss up. Were there any
just kind of along the way of your journey within

(36:36):
caryptography, within TTRPGs, were there any particular
fictional maps that really inspired you, to
want to get into it and to make the maps that you've
made?

>> Speaker C (36:45):
Yeah, I mean I. Well if you look
up there above my desk, I have O Absolutely. A
huge map of Middle Earth up there. I still
have the original set. The very
first world that I bought. World, of
Greyhawk.

>> Skylar (36:59):
Oh, okay. Sitting right there on the shel.

>> Speaker C (37:01):
Yep, I still have that.

>> Skylar (37:03):
Nice.

>> Speaker C (37:03):
Now this isn't my original set
because my original set I used
carpet tape to tape it to my
bedroom wall. O And it did not come off
well.

>> Skylar (37:15):
No, no, it's not meant to.

>> Speaker C (37:17):
My mom wasn't very happy.

>> Skylar (37:19):
O I bet. But that's cool. Like yeah, that's the classic.

>> Speaker C (37:21):
So I still have it. I still have the original books and I
did get another this the map back. I bought
it off of ebay. But you know. Yeah, those things were
all inspirational as well as I've read a lot
of fictional, you know, fantasy. That's kind of my guilty
pleasure and absolute. I love to see
fantasy books that have a map in them. Right now I

(37:42):
have. There are some series that I really like that have
no maps. And it's on purpose because the author, you know,
they've even asked the author about if you've ever read the Black
Company series, there's no maps in that.

>> Skylar (37:53):
Right.

>> Speaker C (37:53):
They talk about things and they even
asked the author about it and he did that on purpose. He did not put
a map in their. On purpose. Because what it come
down to is he didn't want people coming back to him later
and asking him a bunch of questions about why didn't they do this
or because this is what the map says.

>> Skylar (38:10):
Right, right.

>> Speaker C (38:11):
You know, I certainly respect that.

>> Skylar (38:13):
Yeah, absolutely.

>> Speaker C (38:14):
Because it, you know, in a certain ways it does constrain you.
What you know, once you have a map and that's your in. You
know, I mean, yeah, you can change things. I mean there can
be natural disasters or unnatural disasters or
whatever. But u. one time I wanted to
change year. This has been a long time ago. I had a
basic world that my group was adventuring in

(38:35):
and I really wanted to change some stuff in
it. And so what
happened was they had found
this powerful artifact and they were going to.
They decided that they wanted to use this teleportation
circle at. You know, there was a very
limited number of them in the world that I had and they decided they

(38:55):
wanted to take this powerful artifact
through this teleportation circle.
And I thought, well, there's my opportunity.
They. They screwed up the whole.
You know, it screwed up a lot of things. And they ended up like
a thousand years in the future. and it was still a
fantasy setting, but all of the geopolitical stuff had

(39:16):
changed. Some of the terrain
had changed. And I brought in the new map that I
really wanted to use.

>> Skylar (39:23):
That's amaz.

>> Speaker C (39:24):
I never told them. That's why they. That's why
that was.

>> Skylar (39:27):
Magics didn't mix.

>> Speaker C (39:28):
Yeah.

>> Skylar (39:29):
That's pretty cool. That's a key opportunity right there.
That's kind of fun. And they have no idea. They don't know
anything. No.

>> Speaker C (39:35):
It was their fault. They shouldn't have taken that artifact through that.

>> Skylar (39:38):
Fair enough.

>> Speaker C (39:39):
portal.

>> Skylar (39:39):
Absolutely. That's another wide one of those.

>> Speaker C (39:41):
Are you sure that's what you want to do? They.

>> Skylar (39:43):
Yes. actions have consequences. And.
Yep. Sometimes if you don't. If you don't think through them. But. But
it's also a unique opportunity for you. Right. To get to
run something ele.

>> Speaker C (39:53):
And if you want to change your maps, there's plenty
of opportunitiessoute that the characters will give
you.

>> Skylar (39:59):
Right.

>> Speaker C (40:00):
that. That allow you to change things.

>> Skylar (40:02):
Absolutely. It comes back again to. Yeah. Use. Use the
choices your players make to change things. Don't
over. I always say that too. And it's a struggle for me for
sure. Which is don't overwrite when it comes to your campaign, because
I know I am 100% guilty of, like, got this whole
big plan that's coming. And if there's one thing that our
current, current series, Criminals of Violetumis is teaching me,

(40:22):
it's that, like, kind of along what you're saying, which is
use the players's decisions to kind of weave
the story that you've created into what they're doing
and where they're going. Vers trying to force them to
obviously go where you want them to.

>> Speaker C (40:36):
When I've written a lot of stuff extensive
for campaign or things that I've done here in the last
10 years, most of it has been the history
of how they got to whatever they got to. Because
it allows me to write stuff about that because I really enjoyed
writing stuff the campaign. But it also
maintains that the present is fluid.

>> Skylar (40:55):
Right. Yes.

>> Speaker C (40:57):
You're not writing all of the relationships that are
right now because you don't know that, you know, until the players make
some decisions. But. And some of you have to make up as you go along
Absolutely. But if you find yourself wanting to write
more, you know, a lot of characters do
appreciate, hey, there's some history here. And when
you, when you can immediately tell them what it is,

(41:17):
if you enjoy doing that sort of thing and writing those kind
of things, then you know, by all means,
use the maps. And what were they fighting over? What
were they, you know, what was the cause of all of this?
And, and write yourself some history.

>> Skylar (41:31):
Absolutely. Because. And granted, with
magic being kind of an element of it, or maybe
some kind of sci fi element, sometimes
time manipulation can affect some of these things. But
for the moment that they're there, you've got that
background or that history to a situation that's not going
to change unless they do something like that. But

(41:51):
then you're going to figure it out with the players after that.
Right. If they're going to go back in time somehow with some artifact and
change history, that's something that you'll have
written out and then you'll have them explore
as they go into it. But yeah, absolutely, write more background, write more history,
and then you're going to be a lot more confident when they get to those
spaces. So that makes a lot more sense. what's
probably one of the most rewarding aspects

(42:13):
of creating maps for your, for your
sessions?

>> Speaker C (42:17):
I honestly, I like,
frankly, I like making maps in world building
almost more than I actually like playing. And,
and that's pretty obvious right now
because I don't have an active group right now. you know, we've
had, you know, life things come up and it's been
probably a couple years since we are. The group that I had been

(42:38):
playing with has been active. But u,
you know, I'm hoping to get started something,
something started again. Maybe this summer we'll see how things go.

>> Skylar (42:46):
Sure, yeah, absolutely.

>> Speaker C (42:48):
I, I just, I just enjoy the
creative process of it.

>> Skylar (42:51):
Oh, absolutely. Building worlds and writing
content and everything like that. Like it's getting ideas out
onto the page and creating these, these crazy,
awesome, amazing things.

>> Speaker C (43:02):
Yeah. And I like, I've written some short
stories and stuff about some NPCs that I've
made just because it gives me
an opportunity to flesh them out a little bit.
And you know, and it gives
you a source of, you know, stories and
rumors that you can feed your
characters about, you know, different things that are going on,

(43:24):
the different NPCs or the things going on in the
world that you're in. Again, like I told you when they
started, it's hard for me to separate the
cartography out from the world building because to me
it kind of goes hand in hand.

>> Skylar (43:37):
I think it should. I think it should. Absolutely. I think it has to.
Awesome. What, so just kind of final, final
words here before we jump into our intramurals, but
what would be your advice to experience
GMs who are like, who have never really messed with
maps before, but they're thinking, I want to enhance
the experience for my players. I think I want to try

(43:58):
making maps for the first time. What kind of
advice would you, would.

>> Speaker C (44:01):
You give them depend on what you want to do? If you're an
artistic person and you want to do it by hand, by all
means, do it by hand. I prefer the
digital stuff because I mean I can draw
some basic things, but my
digital stuff looks a lot better.

>> Skylar (44:16):
I'm the same way.

>> Speaker C (44:17):
And really what it comes down to is
what kind of an experience you want to have doing
it. If you just want point and click stuff
and you just want to do generic, you know,
if you're happy with having more generic
stuff, then, you know, you don't have to spend a ton of money.

>> Skylar (44:35):
Sure.

>> Speaker C (44:36):
You know, to get some of the, some of the online
tools.

>> Skylar (44:39):
Yeah, absolutely. There's some free ones out there. So yeah,
you can jump. Right.

>> Speaker C (44:43):
There's a lot of them have trials, height. You know, when
I knew I was going toa have this conversation with you, I started
looking at some of the older stuff that I had tried
different times online and, and you know, some of it
is, has a monthly subscription with like a
14 day free trial or things like that and you
know, take advantage of those things and see if it's something you're going to like

(45:03):
doing. But again, some of some of
those things, you know, the campaign cartographer in
particular does have a steep learning curve.

>> Skylar (45:11):
Sure.

>> Speaker C (45:12):
And you just got to know that going into it that it's
not. You're gonna have to put some time in,
watching some videos and learning before
you can just sit down and hammer something out.

>> Skylar (45:23):
Absolutely. Yeah. It kind of just depends on what level of commitment you want
to put into.

>> Speaker C (45:27):
How much time do you have and how much do you enjoy it.

>> Skylar (45:29):
Right, exactly.

>> Speaker C (45:29):
That's what it comes down.

>> Skylar (45:30):
So yeah, use those free or you know, low
cost, options first. See if you kind of like the
feel of it and if you think, hey, I love this, this is really
fun. Maybe look at some of the more expensive and the
more, you know, professional level, softwares and things like
that. So awesome. Awesome. Well, Chip, thank you so much
for Sharing this incredible expertise on
everything, map making, everything, cartography. When it comes to

(45:53):
TTRPGs and like you said a couple of times now, you know,
it really ties into the world building and there's a really
cool sort of ratio of if
the cartography helps the world building and the world building helps
the cartography. It's, it's really a hand in hand situation.
So and there were some fantastic tips and tricks in
there too, of creating the maps using

(46:13):
geographical logic, you know, things that we learn in school, things that
we, we see in our everyday, and using that
and helping us to inspire our
cartography within our fantasy sessions. So thank you so
much for being on the show and we will jump over to our
intramural game.

(46:37):
Alright, so welcome back to our intramural game.
So today what I did was I found online this
really nifty. I wanted to do something that was map making related,
right? And as you know, for those listening, you know, we
usually play one of these intramural games. We try to keep it thematic to whatever
the topic of the episode is. So I found this really
cool sort of mini RPG called
Cartograph. it is by Brandon Lee. You can

(47:00):
find it on Itch IO and I can post the
link for you there as well. but the idea behind it is that
it's a TTRPG that's entirely centered around
developing a map. You are playing as
cartographers and as you're developing the map
you're having kind of little mini adventures throughout where
the locations that you're finding along the way. so
looking over the rule set for this, which is actually a pretty

(47:23):
impressive little booklet that you get, I figured we would
do kind of like a mitigated mini version this. We're not
going to play through a whole ttrbg but what we are going to do
is create this map. So I did the
old coffee method where I took a nice big 11
by 17 sheet of paper and I spilled some coffee on it
and let it dry out and then outlined
what will essentially be our continent or

(47:46):
island, maybe something along those lines. And we're
going to take some turns. I guess we're going to do one turn each
technically to kind of fill in this map a little bit.
I'll be sure to take a picture of it and be able to post it on
our socials. So if you're listening to this episode, you can be able to look
at that once this comes out. So do you want me to go first?

>> Speaker C (48:03):
Sure. Yeah, go ahead.

>> Skylar (48:04):
Sounds good.

>> Speaker C (48:04):
If you could see this to the microphone. I looks pretty good.

>> Skylar (48:08):
I was pretty happy with how it turned out, for sure. So,
each player starts out with three biome
dice and one landmark
dice. And so what you're going to do is you're going to take all four
dice and you just roll them onto the
map. And I think we'll go one at a time.
I guess I'm taking this side for the most part. and then

(48:28):
based on what you rolled, you're going to get a prompt.
So once, the dice are rolled onto the map, you're actually going to
use where they land as kind of your.
Yeah, your spot for whatever it is that you're going to put there. So,
we'll start with my biomes. So my
first biome I rolled.

>> Speaker C (48:44):
Is that a one on that? It's a one.

>> Skylar (48:46):
It's a one. Ok. Okay, perfect. So it's one on the
biome, which is a forest. And then
what I'm going to do is I'm going to hop over to the
forest section of my
booklet here. So the game creates a
massive amount of tables to kind of help prompt.

>> Speaker C (49:04):
And that's something actually that's handy to have when you're
trying to navigate things in your own world
is, you know, there are several different publishers who make
books of tables for towns or
inns or whatever. There's just tons of different ones.

>> Skylar (49:18):
Absolutely. So now that I'm at the prompts for
forest, I will draw a card
and then from there I take that card. It's
a black jack. There we go, is a
black jack card. So I go over to the black
forest prompts, I go down to jack and it will
tell me what a little prompt about my

(49:38):
forest to kind of help me create a little bit of the world building that surrounds it.
So this sparse and grassy effigies
mark these trees here. What message do they convey? What
people created them? And then of course I get a
benefit from that, moving forward. So I'm going
to, take my pen, I'm going to draw like a little tree
area here. I'm going to do something real

(49:58):
simple.

>> Speaker C (49:59):
Watching you draw these reminds me I just saw something not
too long ago that there's a company that came out with
stamps for making your own world. So,
you know, like, Yeah, little tree stamps and stuff like that. Yeah.

>> Skylar (50:11):
And it'll make it look nicer than, than I did by far.

>> Speaker C (50:13):
No, I didn't mean that. No, I know. I'm just like hey, that
would actually be handy to have for playing this.

>> Skylar (50:19):
Yeah, absolutely. so let's see. It
said, there were effigies. So I'm kind of imagining almost
like, in Pocahontas where the trees have like, faces
carved in them.

>> Speaker C (50:28):
Yeah. Or like, like maybe totem.

>> Skylar (50:30):
Like totems. Yeah, kind of like totems. And I like the idea that
they see, kind of like the ants of Lord of the
Rings. Right. These trees aren't just trees. These are like people. These
are things that whoever the natives are in the area,
maybe they're, they're obviously very naturally driven. So
maybe some kind of elves or something like that. some sort of
Druidic group that sees these trees as

(50:51):
sort of humanistic figures. And it's hard to say
whether or not they carved them originally or if the
trees sort of like grow these faces naturally. But one way or
another, these trees are certainly more than just
trees. So that's my, that's my forest. it also
does have a section in here for name. I'm gonna call it
the, bark face

(51:11):
forest since they have faces. And I would say
that this is probably more of like the
other people when they come through this forest. That's what they call
it'not the. The technical name or what have you.
So, next up on kind of the
southern section of my map, I
have a five and that
is a same as

(51:33):
closest biome. So it says another forest. I
guess another forest fore. I guess. Yeah. So I will
draw. I'm just gonna do one tree here this
timeke maybe it's a smaller forest. It is getting a little close
to the coast and usually things don't like the kind of
salt water of the coast. So we're gonna draw a card. It is
a two. Two of diam.

>> Speaker C (51:51):
Diamonds. Ye.

>> Skylar (51:52):
We'll go with red. So we have a two of diamonds. This one
says occupied and guarded. You see
watchful eyes. You pass through the area. How do people here
confront you? For a bo forest, it's
occupied and guarded.
That's interesting. Why is it
guarded? Who's guarding it? Why are they
protecting these trees? I'm going toa assume

(52:14):
that again. Another Druidic. Maybe
Druidic circle over here and
there's maybe a local settlement nearby which kind of goes into what you
talked about, where you kind of start with a point and you expand
outwards into why things are the way they are. you have
this, A, group of Druids.
And they've dealt with Some nearby
settlers who have been chopping down their trees and they're not

(52:36):
super happy about that since they see nature
as a very important, element. It's not just a
resource. So this group over here is
not happy. I'm going to call this
thenrial
forest. That's just something that came to mind. Not the
best.

>> Speaker C (52:53):
Find me Allri.

>> Skylar (52:54):
Right. So it's the balenial for is being guarded by these druids. Apparently
there's a lot of druids in this campaign. This is kind of a very
druid heavy. my last region or biome
dice is a three, which is a lake, which is
interesting since it's right next door to the
ocean here. So I'm going to say that the lake
is right here. Maybe I should have looked
at the prompt before I started drawing it. But we'll roll with that.

(53:16):
there's probably a good, good likeliness that maybe water
is probably coming into it from the coast.
Just from.

>> Speaker C (53:22):
So it could be. It could have some salt water slash
fresh water.

>> Skylar (53:26):
Like a salt water lake. Yep, exactly. So then
we jump over to lakes which thankfully is right
next door. I'm going to draw a card. We'll see what it is. We got a five
of hearts. So that is a red. So
red lake. Five hearts. we got
vessels passed by on the water frequently here.
What makes this place so well traveled?

>> Speaker C (53:45):
I mean I. To be a natural harbor.

>> Skylar (53:48):
It would be a natural harbor. Absolutely. I'm going to draw like a
little, little ship here. and it says
why is it so well traveled? Well, I would
imagine there's got to be a big city.
There's a big city right around here. So I'm gonna call
this. This right here is the settlement that I was talking about
earlier. And I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna put a dot there. But

(54:08):
this is an entire,
city that's kind of built around
this lake. And I'll just
put some houses here along the side.

>> Speaker C (54:20):
This. What I find interesting about this is we
haven't talked about a scale for this map.

>> Skylar (54:25):
That's true.

>> Speaker C (54:26):
So I, you know, I might have.

>> Skylar (54:28):
Drawn a really big city.

>> Speaker C (54:30):
That city might be freaking huge.

>> Skylar (54:33):
That's a very good point. Awesome. And then finally we have
my locate our landmarks which I rulled. Oh. All
I rolled a one. Which is just nothing. There's nothing here.

>> Speaker C (54:41):
My turn.

>> Skylar (54:42):
Absolutely go.

>> Speaker C (54:43):
It matters where they fall, right?

>> Skylar (54:44):
Yep. That's right. Cool.

>> Speaker C (54:45):
Okay.

>> Skylar (54:46):
Where do you want to start? Do you have a preference?

>> Speaker C (54:48):
What is now? What does this Mean to for four.

>> Skylar (54:50):
Yeah. So that's your landmark dice. That'll actually be a
city.

>> Speaker C (54:53):
Okay. It's go. Goingna be probably, I would say right on the point
there.

>> Skylar (54:56):
Point there. Okay. Okay, awesome. So we'll put there's a
city right.

>> Speaker C (55:00):
About here and that might be, you know, a
good point of trade. You know, the reason is there is
because it's close to the, where the druids are
and that settlement and they can ship stuff out
from the other, settlement there.

>> Skylar (55:13):
Absolutely, absolutely. I can, let me get you
city prompt if you want to draw a card.

>> Speaker C (55:19):
Oh yeah, four of hearts.

>> Skylar (55:20):
So all right, so you've got
a bustling merchant city. This fits
perfect. Fits well, bold colors and decorated
buildings line the streets. What does the city trade in? What diverse
people do you find here?

>> Speaker C (55:33):
Well, it's going to be trading, I would say probably in lumber
from some of the local locals. And it's also going to
be probably trying to trade with some of the druids too.
So, you know, maybe some foodstuffs. but, I would
say mostly lumber would probably be the resource because
you'd mentioned that they were taken it out of the forest there.

>> Skylar (55:50):
Yep.

>> Speaker C (55:51):
and it would trade with the other city that you have going on
around the lake.

>> Skylar (55:54):
On around the lake. Awesome. Fantastic. You got a name for the city?

>> Speaker C (55:57):
You know what, let's just call it something basic.
We'll call it Druidville.

>> Skylar (56:01):
Druid ##v they got here and
they.

>> Speaker C (56:04):
How about Woodvilleville? Because it's probably not
gonna be a major city.

>> Skylar (56:09):
It's just, you know, it's just for trading.
Yepille.

>> Speaker C (56:12):
you know your city, was your city named?

>> Skylar (56:15):
No, I didn't name it. I forgot about that.

>> Speaker C (56:16):
you know, maybe they're using that wood for building ships or something like
that.

>> Skylar (56:20):
Sure. We'll call this Harbor Lake then, which I also forgot
to name. And then we'll call this.

>> Speaker C (56:25):
It depends on what you want to do. I mean we could call it
Harborville, but then Harborville.

>> Skylar (56:30):
With Harborve, you've got, some
people. The people that came to this town.

>> Speaker C (56:35):
Are not particularly literate.

>> Skylar (56:37):
Yeah. Which is scary thinking that they're building
ships. Right. Awesome. All right, which one,
which one do you want to handle next?

>> Speaker C (56:44):
what's this island up here?

>> Skylar (56:46):
Yeah. So that was a five, which I believe that
also. And that's your biome dice. So it says
same as closest to biome.

>> Speaker C (56:53):
Oh, well, we're gonna have to determine one of these other ones first.

>> Skylar (56:55):
Ok. So we'll jump to one of the other ones for the moment.

>> Speaker C (56:57):
Well, it's gonna have to be the two here.

>> Skylar (56:58):
Two? Oh, you got.

>> Speaker C (56:59):
Because we have another five.

>> Skylar (57:01):
Oh, okay. Oh, this is gonna be interesting. So two is actually
mountains.

>> Speaker C (57:04):
Oh, wow. There's a lot of mountainsuntain.

>> Skylar (57:07):
If you have two of the same, you can create a mountain range.
All right, so who might just do that?

>> Speaker C (57:11):
I'm gonna say, you know, it looks to me like there's go goingna
be a mountain range going this way. And you know
what? Actually this map lends itself to it because this
point it points out here and, and there's got
to be a reason there's an island up there. So there's
a little mountain on the island.

>> Skylar (57:27):
Sure. Do you think maybe it's a volcano?

>> Speaker C (57:30):
That's why not.

>> Skylar (57:32):
Sure.

>> Speaker C (57:32):
Your mountain range could come like this and.

>> Skylar (57:35):
Oh sure.

>> Speaker C (57:37):
And go that way.

>> Skylar (57:38):
Okay, so you've created kind of like a
point and then there's some hidden land kind
of behind those mountains.

>> Speaker C (57:44):
And so. Yeah, I, I mean I like that. That's what I would
do. I mean that takes care of all our dice. But it'd be a
very large mountain race probably.

>> Skylar (57:52):
Absolutely. You want toaw we can get, we'll get a little bit of
information on these islands.

>> Speaker C (57:56):
Five, diamonds.

>> Skylar (57:57):
Five diamonds. All right, so it says ancient and
dilapidated ruins of a long dead people litter these
peaks. What story can you glean from their
architecture? And you could do this for either one.

>> Speaker C (58:08):
You know, this would be a great opportunity to rip off
Skyrim and you know the ancient
dwemer in Skyrim. You just name them something else
and put it, drop it in here. Sure, absolutely.

>> Skylar (58:19):
Take inspiration from anywhere.

>> Speaker C (58:20):
Y ###eah I mean if they're mountains, if I
was doing it, I would probably do some kind of a
giant. Like there used to be giants and
they'they've you know, had quite a few
dwellings throughout those throughout those mountains
and you know, maybe giant home in over years. You
know, they, you know, in a lot of D and D stuff
or RPG stuff, giants and dragons battled each

(58:42):
other and they are on the downswing. So there
may be a few giants here and there, but you know, most of
their civilization lies in ruins. Throughout those mountains you got like
the.

>> Skylar (58:52):
Surviving hermits almost in a sense. Very cool.
Very cool. So with that being said, I mean what,
what should we call this big giant, sort of triangle
of. I would mountains here.

>> Speaker C (59:02):
You know, they've gotta be big mountains, and
they'renna be volcanic up there towards the top.
Let's go with, I don't know, sky
range.

>> Skylar (59:11):
Ooh, the sky range.
Awesome. Anything. Anything improve. You want to draw
another card for that? That final one over there, that sort of
island mountain?

>> Speaker C (59:19):
We can. Yeah, yeah.

>> Skylar (59:21):
Jack spades. Jack of spades. All right, so,
this is for your mountain, or your island mountain.
It says colossal and timeless. The peak of this mountain stretches
high above. What do you spy hidden at its
peak?

>> Speaker C (59:33):
You know what? That'd be a great place for the ruined
giant city. Maybe it was there capital, and
it just lies in ruins and it's, you know, it's a
source of, like, local legend and it's
pretty much, I mean, nearly impossible to get to.

>> Skylar (59:47):
Oh, absolutely. But not for a giant.

>> Speaker C (59:49):
Right.

>> Skylar (59:50):
But for. For the normal. Even for a giant, I think there'd be a
challenge it a big mountain you got to go up, even
compared to them.
So.
Very cool. Very cool. What would the capital of a
giant city be called?

>> Speaker C (01:00:01):
how about.

>> Skylar (01:00:01):
Oh, I almost said Biggsville, but that's kind of just
goofy.

>> Speaker C (01:00:04):
Yeah. If we're going to continue with the same thing.
Ginggenheim or something like that.

>> Skylar (01:00:09):
Genheim. Yeah, I like that. I will
do my best to spell.

>> Speaker C (01:00:14):
I hope that's not a German swear.

>> Skylar (01:00:15):
Word or something, but you never can tell.
Awesome. Geiggenheim. Awesome. So even with. And
that's just one round, or kind of one round per
se of the game. So, it's really cool how much kind of
can be created here, just in that little course.
So I'll take a picture of this, like I said, and I'll post this on social media.
But, we've already created, you know, we've got a lot of druids that

(01:00:36):
we've kind of established that have, homes here,
and we've created a conflict where they're battling with
settlers over here. we've got this
sort of ancient almost mythology, I'd say, where you
have these giants that existed at one time and people have found
these remnants of giants. But have people seen giants
in years? Who knows? Will the players eventually

(01:00:56):
run into, one of these giant hermits?
Possibly. so we've created a lot of
world building just sitting here and rolling dice on a
coffee spill map. And I think that's pretty cool.

>> Speaker C (01:01:07):
Yeah. Yeah.

>> Skylar (01:01:08):
Highly, recommend everybody checking that out. And once again, Chip,
thanks for being on the show and thanks for sharing your expertise. Really
appreciate it.

>> Speaker C (01:01:14):
Yeah, thanks.

>> Skylar (01:01:17):
Thank you so much for joining us for today's class.
We hope you gained some new knowledge and ideas from our
incredibly knowledgeable professors which you can take with
you to your table and implement into your games
and sessions. If you enjoy what were developing here
at Session Zero University, then be sure to check out our
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(01:01:37):
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(01:01:57):
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Session Zero University - Intro to Mapmaking with Chip Watchorn

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Session Zero University - Intro to Mapmaking with Chip Watchorn