Driven (2001) - S10 E80

Buckle up because this week on Shoot The Hostage, we're hitting the track with a film that definitely ran out of gas at the box office! Dan and Sarah dive headfirst into the glorious box-office flop that is Driven (2001)

We brake down the bewildering plot involving characters played by Kip Pardue, Burt Reynolds, Estella Warren, Gina Gershon (making her second appearance on the podcast) and Robert Sean Leonard. We pull back the curtain on the film's massive budget, chaotic production (including casting just 3 days before shooting), and truly head-scratching moments that lead to "first day on Earth performances".

If you're desperately searching for a podcast covering movies that flopped at the box-office, diving into guilty pleasure movies, or are specifically curious about movies about motorsports and racing, especially a spectacularly bad racing movie, then this is your checkered flag! We tackle everything from the absurd dialogue ("What am I, a piece of wood?" and "You old fish") to Renny Harlin's questionable directing methods. Find out why even Sylvester Stallone himself might regret making this one.

In this episode, expect:

• An apology from Dan (it's apology season, after all) for introducing Sarah to this particular film.
• Analysis of the film's inaccuracies, from unrealistic race tactics to physics-defying stunts
• Commentary on the film's portrayal of women and its overall testosterone driven nature
• A brief tangent on mammals
• Ideas for how a Driven remake could actually cross the finish line successfully

Season 10 runs until May 26th with 10 episodes this time

Would you like to see the full lineup for season 10? The only place you can see it is on Patreon but you don't need to be a paying member. Sign up for a free membership and get access to the lineup.

If you do have some loose change consider signing up as a paid member. Our £3 a month Patreon tier will grant you access to all of our end of season wrap shows for seasons 1-9 and a minimum of 2 reviews of brand new movies each month. Plus the back-catalogue of reviews from 2023 and 2024. 

Enjoy the show but can't support us financially? We get it. You could submit a review on the podcast player you're reading this on right now. Or if you listen on Spotify and you haven't given us a five-star rating yet, what are ye waiting for? It's easy.

If you've done some or all of that and still want to do more, we would love it if you tell a friend about the show.  

Or come find us on social media:

Instagram | TikTok | Threads | YouTube

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hello and welcome to Shoot a Hostage with me, Dan, and my partner, Sarah. We're a movie podcast who talks about a different film each week based on a theme. We do swear and we do spoil the featured movie. So, only ever listen if you've seen the film or you don't care too much about spoilers. If you're a regular listener, you can just skip forward until you hear the intro music cuz you've heard all of this before. But if you are new to the show and you do enjoy what you hear, there are a couple of things you can do to help support the show. Firstly, make sure that you're subscribed on your podcast. player so you get notified when new shows drop on Mondays. Uh you could rate us five stars on Spotify, which couldn't be easier. You just hit the star icon below the show's artwork. Or if you have a spare few minutes, we'd love it if you could submit a review wherever you listen. Uh make sure you come follow us at swth_pod on social media. We are active on Instagram, threads, and Tik Tok. And lastly, the biggest thing you can do to help is tell a friend about the show. So that's about it. That's enough preamble from me. Uh Over to me and Sarah for this week's episode.

(00:01):
Well, here we are.
Mhm.
I mean, it's been a season of apologies, hasn't it? We could called this the apology season.
We should have done
um this week it's my turn to apologize, isn't it?
Again.
Again. Last week you apologized for Tank Girl.
I did.
Well, I requested an apology. Did I get it?
I think I apologized
in writing.
Oh, no. I've not done it in writing. I didn't I didn't have any idea you expected such a formality from me.
Uh okay. You've got six working days, six business days, and then I expect it'll be in in the post the next few days. Any the post. We live together. I think you can sit and spin, darling.
Pay £3 pound50 for a stamp or whatever it is they f****** cost now. Someone the other day I was talking to them and they were like, I can't believe how much stamps are now. I was like, what are they about 40p?
No.
Cuz last time I bought a stamp, I think they are 24p.
What?
Yeah.
Was that in 2007?
It was probably in 2001 when I procured the movie Driven.
Oh, there we go.

(00:22):
Um, so yeah, I'm Very sorry. First time you've ever watched this movie. I believe
it was.
Although you've seen bits of it.
Well, you watch it frequently.
Yeah.
So, I have been in the room and experienced parts of this
scenes in isolation.
Yeah. You've seen some scenes in isolation, which we we'll probably get into some of the scenes.
Sure.
But for context, we've lived together for what, three years now?
Yes.
And I've watched this four times in this house
at least.
I think it's four. It could be five, but I think it's four.
Well, we went we've gone two weeks without recording. A little bit of a peak behind the curtain there. And you couldn't wait 2 weeks to watch this movie.
No.
So, while I was away, you watched it and then watched it again with me last night
cuz we were out of the rhythm. I was like, "Oh, usually I'd get back and we'd watched the movie or we would have already have watched it by then." And I was just I couldn't I was so excited to watch this film.
You were so keen to watch this absolute piece of s***. that you could wait a week.
Yes. And I won't be defending all of this movie. I will be defending some of it.
I feel like it's just going to be a role reversal of last week, isn't it?

(00:43):
Yeah, I think you're probably right. Although, there's less kangaroo penis in Driven.
Well, there wasn't any kangaroo penis in Tank Girl. We discussed that at length. So,
but they didn't even shoot any kangaroo penis.
There's the same amount of kangaroo penis in both films,
but no kangaroo penis was was ever made
that we know of.
Who knows? what goes on behind the scenes precise life.
I think should we start with Do you know what I want to do actually? Something we we very rarely do.
Mhm.
And I think we did it maybe earlier on in seasons one and two, but I'm going to read the synopsis on the back of my old school DVD cardboard case with the annoying little clicker thing.
It's been it's been a season of those because my Empire Records is one of those. Battlefield Earth was one of those before we torched it in the garden.
Yeah. Emphasis on was one of those. It's destroyed now.
Yeah, we took one out of circulation. You're welcome.
We're doing our bit. Um, so I'm going to read the synopsis on the back of this thing cuz uh
Are you assuming that nobody else in the world has watched this film because that would probably be safe.
Probably. Yeah. So, it's probably important for a bit of context.
Okay. So, Driven, a fastpaced adrenaline pumping action drama set in the world set in the Formula 1 championship season. Is it though?
No.
How are they getting away with that? How is f****** Bernie Eckleston allowing that?
It's not Formula 1 season. It's the cart season.
Yeah, even I know that.

(01:04):
Yeah, which it's not even which doesn't even exist anymore. It got absorbed absorbed into the Indie 500. Um, so yeah, top racing driver Jimmy Bllye, Kip Paru, remember the Titans? Do you remember them?
Oh, was he in that?
Apparently,
cuz he's in a he's in quite a few films that I quite like.
We've covered one of them.
Oh, yes. He was in 13.
I can't believe it's our second Kip Par movie.
Yeah. Who I realized upon doing my research that I often um get confused with Gabriel Man
who is also a human person.
Yeah. They're both sort of longfaced blonde American men.
Okay.
Interchangeable.
Okay. So, they perhaps could have done a better job than than Kip Paru in this movie.
You're suggesting that Kit Puyu didn't do a good job in this movie.
I'm suggesting that no one did a good job in this movie, right? In a in a film where you could say maybe perhaps Til Schwiger was the best actor. Like I thought
probably Bert Reynolds, right?
I don't know there. I think it's more to do with the the script and the lack of
finish the synopsis. We can't even get through this without tearing this film apart.
I didn't remember the Titans. Um but he was in that uh Yes. Jimmy Blair is having trouble performing on the track. Um, sorry, circuit. To try to improve the situation, car car owner Cole Henry, Bert Reynolds, Boogie Nights, in case you didn't know.
In case you didn't know who the Bert Reynolds was,
he wasn't sure who Bert Reynolds is. Yeah. He calls him Joe Tanto.

(01:25):
I I can't There aren't words for how much I hate that name.
Joe Tanto. Yeah. Terrible name. Oh, terrible names all around.
Yeah.
Uh, Joe Tanto is played by Sylvester Stallone, didn't you know? He's a former racing champion whose career was laid to rest after he was almost killed in a tragic accident which you don't really there's one like one line of that in the film and it's it's brushed over very quickly. Feels important. More sparks fly as Bllee indulges in an affair with Sophia Estella Warren. Brackets Planet of the Apes.
Yeah. Name one of the films she was in.
Uh I know.
Yeah, precisely. girlfriend of his number one rival. And then it doesn't mention Till Schwagger. Bo Brandenburg. That's a good another good name, is it? BB Boenberg.
Um, yes. But apparently it was ridiculed in Germany because it's not it doesn't sound like a German name.
Right. Okay.
Cuz they really hyped up the fact that Til Schwigger was one of Germany's biggest stars at the time. So they they really hyped up the marketing in Germany. And then
did they
the German public were very disappointed. Um, Renie Harland brackets Deep Blue Sea directs a totally testosterone driven experience involving fast cars, sexy girls, and cuttingedge film technology enabling the viewer to experience racing in excess of 240 m an hour.
Was the um was the cutting edge technology uh in the scene where Sylvester Stallone's CGI head is pasted a top pop a car.
Yeah, they didn't even get the proportions correct.
No, they did not.
You were you were making notes at the time. I was like, you got to watch this before.
Yeah, you're going to want to see this.
We're going to want to talk about this situation. Yeah.
Um, so yeah, there's the synopsis for you. I mean, totally inaccurate. So, it's our first Renie Harland movie. Let's start with
probably last.
It was nominated for a Razi. Unsurprising.

(01:46):
I mean, in this season, it's sort of expected, right?
Yeah. I mean, obviously Battlefield Earth was won Nazzi, I believe.
Well, it was worst film of the decade.
That's right. It was. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And it was also a franchise pictures movie, which is what this is.
Wow. Yeah. I Yeah, I knew there was a connection.
Not the greatest track record there.
No.
And obviously they went out of business um I think a couple of years after this came out because of Battlefield Earth. And go and listen to our show covering that if you want to dig into that.
But yeah.
Or if you just hate Scientologists.
Yeah. Yeah. If you're a Scientologist, maybe don't listen to that episode. You're not going to enjoy it.
If your surname is miscarriage, you heard nothing. Go away.
We've got nothing.
Uh yeah. So, first Renie Harland. You said it'll probably be our last, but will it?
Well, what else do you want to cover?
I'm not the biggest Renie Harland fan.
Good.
I don't I'm not a fan of Die Hard 2.
Um El Street 4. We might get to that at some point. It's not the worst in that in that that last half of the the original run movies, but it's not great.
So, we've done two movies on the bounce directed by people who went on to do Nightmare on Elm Street sequels.
Yes,

(02:07):
Rachel Tallow.
Oh, yeah, of course. Oh, wow. Yeah, lots of New Line House of Freddy connections. Yeah, you're absolutely right.
We I mean, what is your favorite Renie Harland movie?
Deeply say,
of course. Are we going to perhaps do a Shark season, a Thomas Jane season when We're never likely to do a Thomas Jane season.
L CJ season.
Um, we could maybe do Samuel L. Jackson.
We could I mean, you've got a,52 movies to choose from.
Of all the people in that movie, it would be him, right?
I guess so.
Um,
yeah, it's it's terrible. It's really bad. I mean, I can count on one hand the number of actually good shark movies.
Yeah.
And there are a lot of shark movies.
There are a lot of shark movies. I don't hate the idea of doing a Shark season.
M
maybe we maybe let's put a pin in that. But my point is that it's probably not going to be our last Renie Harland movie.
Okay.
Not not a huge fan of Cliffhanger, but you could do
uh mountain climbing season
or um what's the other one that he did? A long kiss good night is a good movie.

(02:28):
Yeah.
Do like a spies thing
I guess. So
that maybe would be interesting maybe to get to that
that Diavlov diatlov pass. one. We could do a found footage season.
Yeah. Yeah, there's that. So, there are opt This is not going to be our last Ryan Harland movie.
Uh
maybe I'll rage quit the podcast at the end of this show.
There you go. That's That's how I'll make it come true.
Maybe I'll replace you with an AI version of you. There's enough
Oh, no. You could.
There's enough episodes now that we've done that I could probably replace you with a Sarah avatar powered by AI previous episodes.
Absolutely possible. And I kind of hate that. Oh, no.
It won't be the same.
No.
No.
Where else are you going to get the the true asserbic nonsense that I come out with? Needs to be organic, man.
Uh I can't believe it's the first slime movie we're doing.
I'm surprised actually.
I'm a big fan of Stallone. There's a lot of his movies that I revisit quite a lot. I find a lot of his movies are quite kind of comfort movies to me.
Which ones are your favorites then?

(02:49):
Rocky three and four.
Okay.
Demolition. man.
Okay. Yeah.
Driven.
Uh obviously Creed, but that's more of Michael B. Jordan movie. Um he's done other films. Not Not
He has. Yes.
Not Stop My Mumble or Shoe. Uh Rambo. I quite enjoy a couple of the Rambo movies. Okay.
Just silly, stupid fun.
Yeah. There's a few that I sort of revisit quite fairly often and we'll definitely get to some more of these as well. I think
you mentioned and I didn't realize is but it's our second Gina Gershon movie.
It is. Yeah.
Yeah. First being Face Off.
Yeah. This is You might call this movie an ensemble piece and
amongst other things. Yeah.
And Yes, you're right. It is. This is after Face Off. So, is it could this perhaps be a sequel
to Face Off where that character s Oh, no. No.
Not if she was previously married to Sylvester Stallone. She wouldn't have had time.
She Was she Was she married to Sylvester Stallone
in Driven?
Oh, in Driven. Yeah. Sorry. I think in real life.

(03:10):
We Please tell me you haven't missed like a major plot point in your 57 watches of this movie.
Yeah.
She wouldn't have had time cuz in Face Off she was shacking up with her brother. I'm convinced of it. You can't tell me otherwise.
Yeah.
Um so she wouldn't have had time. Therefore, not in the Face Off universe.
All right. So, want to talk about a little bit about the how this movie came about. Are we?
Oh, I'm I'm all ears. Please.
But after I think Sly was promoting the excellent movie Judge Dread,
which we also brought up last week.
Yeah. Yeah. And was a contender for this season.
Mhm.
But he was, I believe, on the marketing um what's the word? The when you go on the journey to market things, marketing. He was doing the the publicity tour.
The promotional circuit.
Promote promotional circuit. Yeah. He was doing that thing when you talk. list and go, "Yeah, my movie is brilliant, even if it's s***."
Yeah.
And um he was doing that and he caught some F1 in Europe and kind of got the got the buzz while promoting that movie.
Oh, right. I'd assumed cuz I I read that he'd been trying to make an F1 movie for a long time. So, I'd assumed it was like some lifelong obsession.
Well, it may it may have been a lifelong obsession, but I think perhaps when he was doing in the in the mid '9s, cuz you know, Judge Dread is 95, I think. So, there six years between Judge, Dread, and Driven. But I believe, yeah, that he might have been wanting to do that for a while, but that's when he took it seriously and started writing his first of 40 drafts that he wrote for this.
40 drafts.
Yeah. Quite a few. Yeah.
Holy s***. And this was the best they could come up with.

(03:31):
Yeah. Yeah.
I did read that the script was 220 pages long.
Yeah.
Which is insanity.
Yeah. Which is over for which is you're coming up to like 4 hours based on that script. Yeah. And there was a longer cut of this movie and they had to chop it right down.
Oh no. What a shame.
But he he wanted to make a movie and it just so happened that his mate Rainy Harland who worked on uh Cliffhanger directed Cliffhanger with with Sly also wanted to make a movie about racing but he wanted to make a movie about Eton Center.
Yeah.
And that didn't happen for whatever. reason probably cuz he's Renie Harland and they're like the estate of Senna is like you're not going to and also like if he was trying to make a a movie about Senna in like 1995 like
that's too soon. Yeah.
Some time mate. It was a year after Senna's death like let's can we let his corpse like cool down a bit first please?
Yeah.
And I don't love that. But then obviously you got that great um As if Kapadia documentary about Senna but there hasn't been a a feature length a feature about Senna. to date that I'm aware of. Perhaps there is, but there will be one day. But he couldn't get it made is my point. So, what they decided to do,
you mean they weren't like, "Oh, yes, we'll entrust this man's legacy with the director of Deep Blue Sea."
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, Nightmare on Street Part 4, the worst Die Hard movie out of the original three. Um, yeah. No, it's not going to happen, Mr. Mr. Harling. How about you join forces with Sly and then you can get your heads together and just like crack out an absolute masterpiece. But um Sly Sly actually did want to make it about Formula 1, but he couldn't strike a deal with them, which which blows my mind that they're allowed to mention it on the DVD case cuz it's not Formula 1. Um and then that's when they decided to to make it about cart, which is uh what's that thing when you go lots of words, big one word, big lots of them, and then you shrink it to like the letters, but it's always a ever like cart but it stands for championship auto racing teams. It's called uh the thing when you
like ALF is alien life form.
Yeah, you make it smaller but it's clever. Or Daryl is like a Can you remember what Daryl stands for?
No
data. Data also living
that's D.
I don't know. Um yeah and then that's the story of the development of uh of Driven 40 drafts. it down to well I suppose it was the last draft and they were like yeah yep we've nailed this we're going to film this we're going to shoot this now they the original cut was some 4 hours 4 and a half hours which got chopped down

(03:52):
are we sure that there wasn't a mistake somewhere along the line and they accidentally with went with draft one instead of draft 40
someone played a trick on them it was April the 1st and someone snuck into the trailer and just like wrote the word the number 40 from the bottom of the pile they swapped them around and oh yeah that's good let's do that So, do you know what the budget was for this?
Yeah, the budget was 72 million. I thought it was 90, but 72 million.
Holy s***.
Is that Is that our most expensive film this season?
Um, it might be.
I think it is, you know.
Yeah.
So far.
Yeah.
Obviously not giving away what we're doing for the last two, but um
but I don't think they are more than that.
No. I'd be surprised.
Yeah, I would be surprised too. Uh but yeah, grossed 55 million apparently worldwide. So on paper a loss of about 18 million quid.
It did better than I thought.
Well, it was very quite heavily marketed. I think I remember seeing a trailer a few times at the cinema.
I don't remember it at all.
Unless I don't know. Unless I was just like ah cars and blocked out.
Blocked it out. Yeah, possibly. I remember I remember seeing the trailer and being quite excited for it. I don't remember seeing it at the cinema, but I don't know what I I would I would have wanted to.
Yeah.
So, there would have been a reason that I didn't if I didn't in 2001. The reason might have been that I was a poor student, to be fair.

(04:13):
Maybe. Maybe.
But, uh, yeah, I remember it being marketed quite a lot back then and I was kind of excited to watch it. I remember buying it on DVD eventually and then getting rid of it, selling it to like Music Magpie for like 8p or whatever
and buying it again. about 15 years later. Yeah. Now I'm in the money. I'm going to spend a quid on that. I'm down like two quid on driven money. But
so this was this cost you less money than Battlefield Earth.
Yeah, I suppose it did. I suppose it did. And I've had way more enjoyment out of it.
Yeah. This film opens with one of my least favorite techniques, and that is the montage.
Not a fan of the montage?
I'm not a fan of the montage. No, I I I will accept a montage if it's wellplaced,
but straight out of the gate is not well placed.
What about Rocky 4 then? Which the whole movie is pretty much montage.
I don't give a s*** about Okay,
sorry.
He punches communism.
Oh dear. I'm not a fan of the the the montage opening then because there's a few of these montages.
Oh, there are. But the the opening one was the most egregious.
Was it like we're racing now in this place. And then what was it? It was just introducing you to the
There was a lot of place names coming up on screen. The editing was insane. Yeah.
And started to make me feel a little bit nauseous like 2 minutes in.
Yeah. I don't think I noticed it until my view first viewing for the podcast. How just how choppy the editing is.
It's crazy.
Yeah, it is nuts. It's it's it's quite makes you feel quite sick actually uh in more ways than one. But it it also introduces you to the the hot shot young driver, Jimmy Blight, and he's obviously the best thing. Like, it's the same in all of these driving movies. There's always a a driver that's got the skill, but he just needs to overcome this little like psychological pressure thing. It's the same in Days of Thunder. It's the same Need for Speed. It's the same in any f****** movie that's on my shelf really that features cars, which is quite a lot.

(04:34):
That's most of them. Yeah.
45%.
Yeah.
I did see a review on Letterbox that called this Days of Blunder.
I like that. Yeah.
Which I enjoyed quite a lot.
Have you seen Days of Thunder?
Yeah, of course.
Have you? It's uh I pref I prefer this to Days of Wonder.
No.
Yeah, I do. Really? There's no way that it's a better movie. Yeah.
What about this do you prefer?
I don't I'm not the biggest fan of Tom Cruz. I guess I don't like the I was going to say the sentimentality in that film, but then also this is like a soap opera.
Oh, yeah. in many places
with the whole love triangle and the
you can be the best man.
Yeah.
That that very American sort of um I don't know. It's not patriotism, is it? It's it's just Do you know what it is?
It's male dominance in the sport.
Yeah. Someone should write an article about that.
They should. It's not going to be the journalist in this movie, though.

(04:55):
No. Called Lucricia.
Lucriccia. Yeah. Luke for short.
Yeah. Why Why do I prefer prefer this? I think well there's open wheel racing so it's it's closer to Formula 1 than I think Days of Thunder is um NASCAR I think if I remember right le I'm not a big huge fan of NASCAR so there's that
and also perhaps Sly might be the
right
the difference there cuz I'm big even in this I think he's actually all right in this I think he does what he needs to do he's not in it as much as I would like and apparently
he's not in it as much as Sylvester Stallone would like Right. Because I I do know that what in some of his drafts he was actually the main character and it was
there were lots of different versions of this story.
Yeah. Yeah. That's what I read. Apparently, I don't know if they ever made up, but apparently this sort of put an end to his friendship with Renie Harland.
Really?
Yes. Because he had intended for his character Joe Tanto. I hate that those words came out of my mouth.
It's time to call Joe Tanto. He wrote it with that character being the protagonist. But obviously when Renie Harland showed him the first edit, they'd taken out like a bunch of Sly scenes.
Yeah.
And made it so that Jimmy Bllye was the the main character instead and he didn't like that the focus had been shifted.
Yeah. I on the commentary Harlon
was it was it just a director's commentary?
Yeah, it was just it was just um it was just Renie Ren. We call each other I call it Ren.
Do you Yeah,
on such good terms.
He um he boy seems like such a good dude.
Oh no, I don't know much about him.

(05:16):
I don't know much about him other than what I heard him talk about on the commentary, which
Oh no.
Yeah, it's not great. We'll get into it, I'm sure. Um what are we talking about? Remind me.
Well, they fell out.
They fell out because
because Sly wanted to be in the movie more,
right? So he Yeah, that's right. How Harin had decided that well the the first cut was way too long. They needed to chop it down. He felt that the more interesting parts of the film were with the younger characters and he just thought that was younger and sexier and the kind of people that are going to be watching this PG movie.
Is it PG?
Yeah.
Oh, wow.
Yeah. Are are going to be more inclined to relate to the younger characters more, but I don't know. Like this was sold as a Stallone movie.
It was written by Stallone. Like he's on the front cover. It's a Stallone movie,
didn't wasn't he one of the producers as well or Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Like it's his baby. Like it's it's his vehicle if you will. It's a sly vehicle. It should have been a sly vehicle.
Yeah.
But for some reason 3 days before shoot started, they they cast Kip Pie.
Three days before the shoot,
which is why he doesn't look like a racing driver
or
what does a racing driver look like for the uninitiated?
An athlete,

(05:37):
right?
Like you can be you can be skinny and and and lean or you can be a bit bulkier or whatever, but you need well certainly with your neck muscles, you've got to be a proper athlete to withstand the kind of G forces that you your body goes through. And just for the endurance to drive 60, 80 laps, um 100 laps, I think, in in some of these races in this movie, you've got to be really fit. The sweat that pours off of you, the the body mass that you lose, you've got to be super fit. It's not like you can just jump in a car and just drive it around 3 days before or
I'm I'm so uninitiated in this. Like I obviously it's not going to come as a surprise to anybody listening that you are a massive fan of cars in general.
I like cars.
You do? You like cars?
Oh, big man. A big masculine man. I like cars.
It's probably one of the few sort of stereotypically male pursuits that you have.
Yeah, it is. I like football.
Yeah.
Give me a car, though.
But I'm not very well verssed. I don't even drive. So, you might have to dumb down some of it.
You want me to dumb down driven?
No, not the film.
Right. Okay. I might struggle with that
cuz I genuinely I didn't realize the athleticism
that the drivers have to have before we started dating and talking about this sort of thing. I had no idea. Didn't cross my mind.
Bored you to death with it. Yeah. It's not like it's not like Ari where you just go down a pub and throw f****** sharp things at a circle.
Yeah. And now I'm on the F1 subreddit.
Yeah.
So I can keep fought with you.
I love that. Thank you.

(05:58):
Yeah, he doesn't look like a racing driver at all.
Yeah.
So, you've got to First of all, there's that. I I wonder who else they were looking at.
I did read somewhere that they considered Leonardo DiCaprio.
Oh, did they?
I don't know if Leonardo DiCaprio considered them.
I don't I very much doubt that he did. He This is This is post Titanic Leonardo DiCaprio.
Yeah.
Okay. I don't love that. Anyway, that casting But yeah, I um yeah, I don't know who else you would have cast particularly at that time, but Kip Pu was not even someone I'd ever heard of at that time. And I think I've seen three Kip Podu movies, one being driven, the other two you showed me in the last two or three years.
Yeah, he's in a few that I like. He's in um The Rules of Attraction, which kind of gets s*** on a little bit, but I quite like it. It's a
Was that the the um Baitman thing
kind of? Yeah, it's a Breaster Ellis. story,
right?
Um, with very very loose ties to American Psycho.
Is it cousin of Patrick
or brother?
Right.
I don't think by James Vanderbeek.
Yes.
Yeah.
So, you do remember?

(06:19):
I do remember. Yeah.
Um, he was in a pretty bad remake of The Wizard of Gore.
A remake of what?
The Wizard of Gore. It's a Hershel Gordon Lewis movie.
All right.
Um, the remake was not good. And he's in from a cheerleader, which I absolutely love.
Yeah, of course I have seen that, too. I completely forgotten about that. Yeah, that was a fun movie.
I've seen way more Kit Pu stuff than I care to realize.
Right.
Yeah.
And a couple of born films. We watched the first Born film.
Is he Is he in the Born films?
I believe so.
Is he Is he a Treadstone?
I think so.
Oh, right. Well, we've we watched the first one recently, so I'm guessing it's in two and three that
he's definitely in Supre. Um yeah, I think he's in Supremacy.
I can never remember which one's two and three.
One of them is Ultimatum.
Yeah, I know.
Which I think is three.

(06:40):
I don't know. Look, it's been a while.
Yeah, I know you've got Supremacy and ultimatum, but I can't remember which one is number two.
I'm pretty sure it's Identity, Supremacy, Ultimatum.
Okay,
you'll have to take my word for that. But anyway, we have seen much more of his uh back catalog than than either of us imagined.
Which is surprising because after watching this movie, you you'd think, oh, His career is over. But he carried on. He must have a great agent. It's definitely not his brother who's a piece of wood.
No, he's not a piece of wood.
I think he is a piece of wood.
But do you think a piece of wood could react that? Well, a piece of wood couldn't tear their sunglasses off.
Yeah, there's lots of that. There's lots of tearing your sunglasses off and smiling or like just shaking your head like, "Oh, no." And and most of It's by the I didn't write down the actor's name, but the guy
Robert Sha Leonard.
Robert Sha Leonard, who plays
Oh, he's he's got a name and it's a funny one. What's his name? Delay. Delane. I'm going to
I can't remember.
I'm guessing it ends in Bllye.
Yeah. On account of them being brothers. Yeah,
they might not. I mean, they might be adopted brothers. That's true. That's true.
They might be brothers from another mother.
They didn't look a thing alike.
No, they really didn't, did they? Oh. Oh,
Deil. It's called Deil Blie.

(07:01):
Of course. Yeah, why not?
We call him DB. He He wasn't good in this.
Nobody was good in this.
But I I don't Do you Are you familiar with that actor?
Robert Sha Leonard.
Yeah.
Only vaguely. He was in um a Whit Stillman movie called The Last Days of Disco that I used to really like.
Okay.
Um he's not done a great deal that I am overjoyed about, but um
Is that pre pre-driven or post-driven?
Oh, I want to say that was about 98.
Okay.
Late 90s. So
So you've not seen him since 2001, is it?
No.
Okay.
How many careers did this movie end?
Not enough.
Not enough. Yeah, that's the answer to that question. Yeah. I mean, he's he's probably my least favorite character in in in this film. If you can imagine such perhaps Gina Gershwin is my least favorite character, actually.
Oh, I love Gina Gershwan, but she was her character was atrocious in this. terribly underwritten. Like
she's so annoying.

(07:22):
It but she's unnecessary to the like I can if you're going to watch the if there was a 4-hour version which I would watch.
Of course you would.
I can understand there being all of these characters and the interconnection and it's more of an ensemble. You get to spend time with all of these people and dig into their backstories and stuff in a Renie Harland movie. But in in the version that this is, her character has no place being here. You could have had the memo character her and not have and not have her in it at all. I suppose it's a bit of a bummer if you shot loads of Jenny Gershon stuff and you just cut her out in the film entirely because you need memo for that that that scene that kind of um ignites the third act and brings them together
was ignites upon
No, no, it wasn't. I mean, yes, it was intentionally one. Yeah. But yeah, has I was going to say perhaps De is my least favorite. It's partly because he's really f****** annoying. and whiny.
He's just Well, it's funny because one of your favorite lines in this film that you talk about a lot is, "What am I, a piece of wood?"
Yeah.
And I feel like, was that added at the last minute as a dig? Because that character is very wooden.
Yeah.
That's how I feel about it. And the reason it's one of my favorite lines is cuz it's awful. But it's not a it's not a phrase for a start. What am I a piece of wood? Like I the phrase closest phrase that comes to mind is like it's like talking to a brick. wool.
But like what does he mean by
or like when people say like what am I chop liver? Like I've heard that a lot in American store.
I've heard that too. You're right there. So you got that you've got so probably so many other options like and I only even got aaurus here but like sly 40 drafts. That's the 40th version of that line that you
know. I'm telling you somebody switch a reader for the first draft.
I think it must be right.
But it doesn't end there though because there was another line where somebody says called somebody else you old fish.
I'm just like Nobody in the history of the world has ever put some of these words together and in sequence.
Also, like there's no such thing as an old fish, is there? How long does a fish live?
I mean,
unless you're a whale, is that a That's technically a fish, right?
Yeah.

(07:43):
So, I mean, it's in the sea. It's
It's not a mammal,
is it? No, not a mammal.
It's not a mammal.
Does mammals have to be live on land?
Yeah.
Oh, do they? I think I've completely misunderstood what a mammal is. A dolphin's not mammals.
No.
Okay.
We We should have this conversation later.
We should do a season on mammals and I'll put in like Moby Dick like that. That's can't be it.
Finding Nemo.
Yeah.
Yeah. I don't know. There's there's just so much
I don't know that that human beings don't say, but it kind of lines up with the performances cuz one of my notes is just this film is chalk full of first day on Earth performances.
Explain.
It feels like it's everybody's first day on Earth because they don't do things or say things that humans do.
Yeah.
It's all very odd.
And I
as much as I think a lot of that blame does lie with Sylvester Stallone.

(08:04):
I feel like Well, yeah, but I feel like so much of it has to come down to direction. If everybody is sort of uniformly terrible, And it's Randy Harland's fault, right?
Well, love him or hate him, Sly has made some really good movies. Like, he's and he can act. He's a He he he is good at acting when there's a good script. You got the original Rocky.
He doesn't write it himself.
I think he's a I think he is a good writer, but he's kind Yeah, I think he I think he can be.
What do you know, you old fish?
Very good. No, I think he is a good writer, but he's he's kind of got one idea
which is
you got to try your hardest to overcome the odds and if you think and you're positive and and you can you try hard then you might do it.
Yeah. Oh no I've aged out now I'm the mentor.
Yeah. But that one idea I really like that one idea of his. So when he does it well I I really like it.
Is that cuz you're a bit of a sucker for underdog stories and they often coincide.
Yeah. Definitely right. Definitely.
Just that like over common in the odd situation, which is why I'm a big fan of some of the Rocky films and and particularly Creed.
I don't know if I've mentioned this before in podcast, that's my favorite Rocky movie.
You've Yeah, you've said that once or twice.
And I think that he's really good in something like Demolition Man. I think he's it's perhaps it might be my favorite Stallone movie just because I think he's perfect in it. He delivers the the comedy lines very well, like he's a man at a time. It feels like he's perfectly past in that. I don't think he had anything to do with the writing, but I think he delivers it perfectly. So, when he's in a a good project and all of a stars line, I think that he's I think he's great. I don't think there's anyone better at action
and delivering the good dialogue. As much as a big fan of Arie I am, he wasn't he never was the greatest actor. He got better as his career went on, but he was very good at what he did.
Whereas Stallone was always he could cross He could do a bit more dramatic stuff if he wanted to as well as the action stuff. And that's why I think when I was a kid, I was all about Annie, but the older I've gotten, and I like Sly as well, but the older I've gotten, the more I sort of reach reach around to to Sly to Sly movies. I reach back to those. I tend to be re-watching a lot of older Sly stuff than I am watching an stuff these days.
Did you ever think you Well, I should maybe I shouldn't phrase it as a question since you've just said you're a fan of his acting, but um yeah, I I don't think I ever thought I would watch a film where Sylvester Stallone was the best actor in it.
Okay. Yeah.
But then I guess he was probably trying a bit harder than everybody else given that it was his material.

(08:25):
Yeah. Yeah. And also he probably knew the script like the back of his hand. He
having written it 40 times. Yeah.
Yeah. So he's probably practiced it in a mirror and everything. He he knew exactly what to do.
I I want to go back to this Kit Pod being cast three days before filming.
Okay.
So So, do you know what they filmed first?
The chicken or the egg?
I I don't know what the the very first thing that they filmed was. I know the very first scene that Estella Warren filmed, which was um in the in the nightclub. I think towards the middle of the movie when uh Sophia and Bo Brandenburgg re recouple,
rekindle their romance.
Yeah. They get back together. He's like, "Ah, come. I want to be a ma do a marry on you." And she's like, "Oh, yeah, great. I I'll come back crawling back then." Fine. Um, apparently that was the first scene that Estella Warren had shot
ever.
Ever.
Presumably.
Yeah. And Renie Harland was a total shitbag to her because at that point he wasn't getting the performance. This is what he uh describes on a commentary that he wanted to get out of her. She wasn't delivering the emot beats that were needed for that film. Um, and the answer to that is don't maybe don't cast a Stella Warren in that role.
I was going to say you sorry I already hate Renie Harland based on that. I know you said he's not the greatest person.
Um, I feel like am I going to hate him profusely by the end of this episode?
I Well, there was this it was this maybe this one part in the commentary. He does seem a bit arrogant from from the commentary and he has his own website which I've got I've saved it. copy of the link in my notes. So, we'll get to that. But, uh but yeah, in what in that descript in that scene, what he describes is uh she wasn't delivering the performance that he was looking for. So, what he did is he decided to berate her, put her down, call her names, be really quite personal and aggressive to her to the point where she started crying. And then she delivered the scene. And he the way he described it in the commentary. It's He's proud of it. He He He's like, "I felt really bad in a moment, but we got the performance that we needed." I don't know if you did. And he he also said uh like I felt really bad, but you know, at the end of the shoot, Estella Estella came up to me and sort of said, "Oh, that that felt really horrible, but thank you for doing that." Like, I got a performance
because she wants to work again.
Yeah, I guess so. And that's But Sorry. Like my my jaw is genuinely sort of slack right now.
Yeah. Just like really mean. Like really mean apparently in that sense.
So he thinks he's Kubric.

(08:46):
Well, yeah, I guess so. Like
what a ch.
It's unacceptable for Stanley Kubri. What you And if you're Renie Harland, why do you think it's f****** acceptable for you? Did I say acceptable or unacceptable for Kubrick? I meant to whatever I said. I meant to say it's unacceptable for Kubrick. And he's one of the greats.
Not anymore. Was
Well, he's dead now. Sarah,
didn't you know? I do know. That's what I mean. Uh,
he's no longer on this plane.
Imagine if Renie Harland had directed A Clockwork Orange.
No.
Or 2001. Or I'm going to say it.
Don't you dare say.
Don't you dare say it.
What if Renie Harland
Don't you dare. I'll leave you.
What if he directed The Shining?
Get out.
What if he directed a prequel to a muchloved horror movie that wasn't the shining but was called The Exorcist. What if he did that?
He did. Did Did he do that?
He did. Did he do do that? He did do that.
He did do that.
Wasn't it the fourth Exorcist movie? I can't remember what happened, but the original director didn't like pan out or something. And so two were kind of made in tandem from the same script.

(09:07):
Yeah.
One was him, one was Paul Schrader, I want to say.
Was it?
I think so.
Oh, I wonder which one's a better movie.
And I own them both and I've never seen them.
Oh, I We have to watch both. both of them back to back and do a comparison on them one time. But yeah, so what if Renie Harland had done a a prequel to The Shining? What if he had done a
what if he directed Doctor Strange the sequel instead of Mike Fanigan? We wouldn't be talking about it. I would
Doctor Strange.
Doctor Strange. Doctor Strange.
Doctor Sleep.
Doctor. I was going to say I'm so confused right now.
Oh god. Yeah.
Yeah. He's not the guy.
No,
he's not the guy.
No. God, no.
No.
And also, I'm sorry. Just going Back to the Estella Warren thing.
Yeah,
I have no stock in this whatsoever.

(09:28):
This movie
or or her. Like I don't give a s*** about Estella Warren. I forgot she existed until you put this movie on last night and I was like, "Oh yeah, it's her that was in that terrible Planet of the Apes movie that Tim Burton shhat out in the early 2000s that created a beef between him and Kevin Smith. But I'm sorry. I'm I'm going to go to bat for her here.
Yeah, I know 100%.
You cast somebody based on seeing their swimsuit pictures in Sports Illustrated magazine and thought, "She's my actress. She's my lead."
Yeah.
And then bullied her.
Yeah.
On set to try and get a better performance because she wasn't giving you what you wanted.
Yeah.
Get out.
And when is there ever been a knockout performance in a Renie Harland movie? Like we said, we mentioned some of them earlier. Like Deep Blue Sea is a fun movie. Oh, it's not good though.
It's probably not great. Long Kiss Good Night, good movie written by Shane Black. Gina Davis is great in that, but it's Gina Davis. And why are you choosing this moment to try and elicit some kind of uh performance that you think is like the emotional center of this film or whatever? Like, it's just unnecessary. It's It's 100% bullying. It's 100% unnecessary and unneeded for this film. Did you do that with f****** Kip Pu? I don't You did, did you? You probably didn't. And also, there's that scene in the movie where she's doing a big swim because she does a swim before this movie. She was a swimmer. Was she a big swimmer? Yeah. Did her thing when she moves her legs in the air?
She's a synchronized swimmer. Yeah.
So, she did that in this movie. And the reason that that scene is in this movie is because, and I quote, she looks good in her underwear. According to Renie Harland,
I hate Renie Harland.
I told you it's not It doesn't seem great, but he seems quite proud of it. And this commentary was recorded in 2001. I'm not going to say it was a different time. It I mean it literally was a different time obviously, but I mean like it was I guess less you would get more push back on that sort of thing these days I think.
I hope so.
Yeah, you would. You would. There's loads of shots in this movie that are just completely like let's look at the tits.
Oh yeah.
And like there's loads of it does still happen but it's it's way it's not nowhere near as much.
And

(09:49):
I think we're all a bit more aware of it now.
Yeah. And it depends on the film. Like this is not The thing is about this film is that it's it's it's terrible.
Well, it's all about context as well. Like the substance was full of shots of boobs and bombs.
Yep. Yep. There's that. I mean, this is about racing. You do get scantily clad women walking around in race. If you're doing a boxing or a fighting movie, yes, you get the women with the balls walking around with heels on and and little tiny pants on or whatever. And it's part of it. And okay, that's fine. But
but that character wasn't one of them.
But that character wasn't one of them. And also it's like everyone feels like to me Sly and Haron they really wanted to make a good racing movie and they made like about seven minutes of a good racing movie.
They made a racing movie.
They made a race racing movie but it feels like they were super proud of what they made and it actually turned out to be quite good and defending of it. I couldn't hear much
not anymore.
I didn't hear much I couldn't find much research into what Sly had described about it. What what what information have you got?
There was an interview, I can't remember with whom, there was an interview he did um and he was asked, "Is there a film you wish you hadn't made?" And he said this.
Really?
Yeah. Wow.
And Renie Holland describes it as one of the worst mistakes of his career as well.
Really?
Yeah. Cuz it did kind of kill his career,
I suppose. So, but like he recorded that commentary. I imagine it was just like during post-prouction, just before the film came out or just after maybe slap it on the DVD on on release. It's going to be a huge movie. He seemed like he was very proud of it.
Well, hindsight's 2020 for a start,
but also we talked about this earlier on this season as well and we've we've talked about Tommy Weisso and The Room quite a bit in flop season. I feel like obviously you make a thing that you are proud of. I imagine that's the case for most filmmakers. Even even if your film is bad, I'm sure you give it your best shot.
Yeah, of course.
So, I think it's understand to be proud of the thing that you've made, but obviously that doesn't account for audience um reaction.

(10:10):
Yeah.
So, if there's push back, then yeah, you might start to go, "Oh god, am I wrong?"
Yeah. Maybe you do some self analysis, god forbid.
Yeah. Maybe you do some self-reflection and you reappraise your film and go, "Oh no, I was blinded this whole time.
I was in a an echo chamber of yes men and actually this 's dog s***. And then you can, you know, you can, you've got one of two things to do at that point. You can either do the Tommy Wiso and go, "Yeah, it was always meant to be a comedy." And then, you know, start making money doing screenings of it where people throw spoons at you.
Yeah.
Or you could be a Francis Ford Coppler and be like, "Malop Megalopouloolis is still a masterpiece. I'm going to make it difficult for anybody to watch at home because it needs to be seen in cinemas."
Yeah. Needs to be seen.
And just be a stuckup a****** about the whole thing. So, it does sort of feel like they've both I don't I don't know what the what each scenario was that made them change their minds, but I think there's a number of factors that can
contribute to a bit of a turnaround in opinion,
I guess. So, like I can't I obviously I do I do love this film. I fully acknowledge it's a piece of s***. I can't there's no there's no denying that. We've spoken about this before. Watch a film when we want to watch a film when we watch a film for the podcast, it is completely different.
Like when I watched it that first time with the Renie Harling commentary, it it was way more obvious to me just just how bad this movie is. The choppy editing, the the overthe-top melodrama between characters, the fact that you introduce the the journalist character who's writing the the piece on male dominance in a in a sport which is it's not male dominated, it's just a male sport.
It's exclusively men that are drivers.
Yep. We We introduce this this character Lucriccia. They call her Luke. And she's introduced as a journalist and she's writing a piece about male dominated uh male dominated.
I think it's just male dominance in the sport.
In the sport in or in in sport
I think in the sport.
In this sport.
So this specific sport whether that's F1 or Cart we don't know.
It's c it's not F1. Bernie wouldn't allow it.
But yeah and then it's never mentioned again.

(10:31):
Well she's she's making notes.
Oh. Does she have a little notepad?
She had an actual pen in her hand.
And then I think the next time we see her is when she's trying to get information out of Sly when he's playing pool.
Yeah.
Against no one and taking illegal shots, by the way.
Yeah.
Um and then she's got a little tape recorder.
That's right.
And then it's that's it.
And she insults him by calling his past colorful.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then presumably she gets fired for not having submitted anything.
Yeah.
And it's never spoken of again. And now she's just a a car wife.
Yeah.
Which also is what Estella Warren is and what Gina Gerson is.
They've got nothing else to do. They just hang around there.
Car wags.
Yeah. They're just like at the tracks. They let that they let them have the little headphones and just talking to the drivers like, "Come on, baby. You can drive."

(10:52):
Wouldn't happen. There's no way you're getting partners on. Imagine if I if you were driving and I was on a f****** How distracting would that be?
Oh, terrible.
It was Oh, no. You need to break sooner than that. Or or no, you can you can accelerate quicker out of that corner. Shut up.
Rip the headphones off in a heartbeat.
You wouldn't hear me cuz you'd be humming your way around the track trying to pick up those sweet coins.
That is the trick, so I'm told.
Okay, look. We have torn this film a new one. Like, it's not good. I've said already, I can't defend it. It's a piece of s*** objectively. But I do love it. I do enjoy watching this film. Partly is because the more I watch it, partly some of it is enjoy how bad it is. That piece of dialogue with the piece of wood thing. I love it. It's awful. But I just like, oh, why did you do this? But I love that you did.
But so what? Right. Break it down for me. What are the elements about this film that you love?
Well, it's very simple. Cars.
I did ask you to dumb it down. I suppose I heard that coming.
No, obviously there's the sly thing. Okay, that's I'm on board with that about cars. Great. I've never seen Formula One. Sorry, beg you pardon. Cars. hot cars, open wheel cars, right racing around in the city, even if you are CGI and the sized face. I think that sequence is great. I I really enjoy that. I've never seen that before. Always wanted to see that in a movie.
Don't they get off with like a 25 grand fine, though?
Yeah. It's not realistic, is it? They're in prison for 10 years.
Oh, there there are deaths.
Yeah. Yeah. And there's also like unrel like related illnesses that people get like some people have like hearing problems after the the cars drive past and that woman who gets the the skirted up like that maybe the skirt whipped into her face and like broke her nose or something
blinded her.
Yeah.
Flagrant disregard for other people's safety.
Yeah. The couple that was just sitting just waiting for a bus at that bus stop and and the glass just cracked.
Um maybe some of that glass went into their scalp and they got brain damage from it. Like who knows? Many people were affected by it. But I enjoyed it.
And that's the main thing, isn't it?

(11:13):
It cares about collateral damage.
Yeah. And you get some dodgy CGI in there. You mentioned SN face already. You get the the
But at least it's funny.
It is funny. But that's also there's that. I enjoy that part of it, too. And you get the manhole. And then you get that whole really like over-the-top speech about you got to get back to racing because you love it. And it's really like over the top, but I do sort of get into it as well. So there's that. There's there's there's three sequences in this film that I love.
That's one of them. That's the middle one. The first one is
complet completely absurd, but it's the part and I think you probably realized I was I saw I was like, "Oh, this is the bit."
And uh that that that song comes on. I can remember.
Oh, is it the bit with the coins?
It's the bit with the coins. Yeah. And he flicks the coin up.
You've told me about that scene before. You just literally described it to me.
I think about it all the time. That's when you get introduced to his humming. He hums when he's he's pushing it to the edge apparently cuz you got to have a thing and you got to have a little weird thing that separates you from everyone else.
Maybe he's got tenus and he's just trying to drown it out.
Yeah, maybe. But uh yeah, that so that sequence is that that song Money Money Money. Well, I can't remember what it's called, but it's that which unfortunately was the the the the title song to the the TV show um the American thing with the was it the apprentice, the thing with Trump, unfortunately. Yeah, I think I think it was a song in that. But anyway, I digress. I love that scene. It's ridiculous because the setup is that he's going to flip the CGI on the floor, the CGI coins. Oh, that wasn't real.
Wasn't real, Sarah. Oh, no.
They were fake coins.
They've pulled the wall over my eyes yet again.
I don't The CGI is not great in some of this, but some of it as well is surprisingly good for 2001,
I guess. So, yeah.
But anyway, back to the coins. But he's The whole thing in that scene is that they're going to slide around the corners, pick up the coins, not lose any time. Isn't they just going to slide around a corner, not lose any any time.
Look, as somebody who has limited knowledge of racing and also limited knowledge of physics, I can tell you not possible.
Yeah, you're losing you're losing you're losing tenths tenths upon tenths in those corners, it's it's absurd. But for every moment that's as ridiculous as that, like I I can I can watch that and go, "This is stupid." And I know that it's stupid, but also I enjoy it cuz it's it's it's You're suspending disbelief. You're taking artistic license. Call it whatever you want. It does make for more a more exciting scene.

(11:34):
Is there Is there stuff in this that is quite close to the truth though? Like did they No, not at all. Not nothing.
I don't
cuz it's weird to me that they originally intended to make a some sort of biopic or movie about Senna or whatever
and and Sly was so dead set on making an F1 movie. It would surprise me if they just threw the rules and regulations and what's possible
out the window.
I think they they were going for some kind of realism. They were like um like there's a scene where there's a crash and it's kind of time is slowed down. Like that is what people describe when you're in kind of that situation. Time does feel like it's slowed down and everything's kind of whizzing past you.
What about like the tunnel vision?
Tunnel vision is something I was going to bring up. The tunnel vision is absolutely something that race car drivers describe. You just Everything around is kind of blurred and you're not really it's just what's in front of you. All you're seeing is the racing line around a track. Apparent like that to me feels very realistic. All of the racing stuff I mean some of the passes that they do particularly in a third act to get past like 12 cars in in the time that they're getting past them. The other cars would have to be sort of slowing down purposely to let them pass. It's unrealistic. Especially when you've got one going on the inside, one going on the outside. It's not it's not happening. Like racing is not that exciting, but the closest comparison I take that back. Racing is very exciting. There's nowhere near that amount of passes with two cars particularly like that working together.
The closest comparison I can think of is Rocky because
boxing is not as exciting as it is in Rocky. In Rocky, they're just punching each other and then they get punched back and then they punch each other, they get punched back.
It's not just the dancing around each other trying to get trying to connect with something. and like just sort of they just sort of duck around for 2 minutes and then the bell goes and no one's f****** done.
No, they beat the s*** out of each other in the Rocky movies. I think it's kind of like that. I think where you get the the spirit of it.
Yeah. I've seen quite a few people actually liken this to to Rocky.
Yeah. Well, obviously there's Stallone. You've obviously got that Stallone colle connection and that was my favorite review which we we both I think I saw that a couple of weeks ago on Letter Box and you read it today.
Yeah. I think my favorite part is is when the cars started punching each other. Yeah,
I enjoyed that a lot.
Yeah, there's some other stuff that I I just haven't seen in films as well, like the when they're racing around the track and you've got the reflection of the the other car in the visor. That's all CGI. That's some some CGI stuff that I I can't tell that that's CGI. There's loads of stuff in this that is CGI that you probably can't tell. And there's some CGI in it that you just go, why are you doing this? Um particularly some of the the shots when they're like quick zooming into the the helmets and stuff like that. So, it's a really weird experience for me cuz like I do I love it and I enjoy it and there are some scenes that I'm like, "Oh, this is pure racing, but it's not very realistic in most of what is showing."
Yeah.
And I can't defend it. But it is it's not the best racing movie ever made, but it's probably in my top five that I enjoy.
Yeah. Like the stuff that I've read does seem to suggest that they kind of wanted to pay homage to to the real world of racing.
Oh yeah, they've even got real drivers in the film.

(11:55):
Yeah, that's what I mean. Some some cameos, some I think um Memo was named after two different drivers.
Okay.
Memo something and something Moreno. So they just like sandwiched the two names. Yeah. Together for this fictionalized version.
Um the some of the rituals that drivers do like there was that scene I think where one of them taping a picture of a baby inside his helmet or something. Apparently, apparently that was Renie Holland's baby, which just makes it weirder. Maybe you taped a picture of somebody else's baby inside your helmet.
Have a picture of my baby.
Have a look at that man's hard drive immediately.
Yeah.
But yeah, so they did kind of pay attention to to some of that stuff to try and I guess ground it.
Yeah. I mean, there's a definitely you can tell that there's a love for it there. And I guess that's probably part of the appeal for me. You can There was a there were some good intentions there.
Um, despite some of it being absolutely absurd.
You've got that slow motion sequence before the final Detroit race and you've got the real drivers in there and also Renie Harland, ego of egos, puts himself in that scene and he's not a driver, you know.
He's in the film twice.
He has two parts. Yeah. And he's wearing a racing suit in both of them. Both of those parts. There's a bit I think he was in the bit just before the really exciting hopping sequence.
Hopping. has never been so dramatic. I was laughing my ass off at that scene.
I know. Almost there. Yeah.
He had to show his dedication, Sarah.
He did. Yeah.
If only you tried that hard sooner.
Hang on, mate. I've won loads of races. It's really hard driving. And you get in a f****** car and drive.
Cuz he was unwilling to hop on a broken foot.
Yeah. Yeah. He showed his worth at that point. And then everything changed. And then they had that little bit of the final sequence where the did a bit of drama bass, a bit of fat boy Slim, which is my other favorite part of the part of the movie.

(12:16):
And Jimmy Bllye was marginally less emo for 10 minutes.
Yeah, I would Do you know what? I'd prefer if that was more of the movie. If there was more of that, the fun kind of quippy back and forth. If it was more of that, I might I don't know if it'd be a better movie. And I don't know if I could enjoy this more than I do cuz I do really enjoy it. I don't know if I've mentioned that before.
You have? Yeah.
But I I don't know. It might have been a more fun movie in in terms of the characters. It It just goes way too melodramatic. It goes way too heavy on the drama, the love triangle stuff.
I'll whip out the love triangle entirely.
Why does a woman have to be involved for them to have some sort of rivalry? They're already rivals.
Yeah.
It doesn't make any sense.
Yeah, you can have a rivalry.
You've just bloated the film with this extraneous character.
Yeah, there's a I think you're right. I think there's just many characters in this that you could just whip out.
Yeah. Interesting enough, like this is this film is made for fans of racing. So, let's cater towards those. Maybe let's make a movie called F1 and and put a 60-year-old man called Brad Pit in a car. Uh, which I'm very excited for. It looks great. But I you don't need that level of melodrama in in this. Like you say, there's already a rivalry. There's already something interesting to dig into there because you've got the rivalry, but you also have the camaraderie and the respect. that there always is usually is between between drivers.
That's enough.
It is enough. There there's there's enough interesting stuff there. And like I say, if you cater it to towards racing fans, you could just that can be your movie.
Yeah. I It puzzles me that there's like a 4hour version or they wanted it to be 4 hours. So they removed 2 hours of footage but still kept in all that goth.
Yeah, it is curious. It must been hard to to edit this down to to the two hours. But they they put most of the the cut the stuff they cut out into montage, I'm guessing.
Yeah, I think they used some stock footage as well.
S what? Such as like the
some of the racing stuff was stock footage.
Oh, really?
Well, yeah, I did read it was sort of um real car racing from the '9s.

(12:37):
Right. Okay.
Not all of it.
Yeah.
So, some of it was stock footage, some of it wasn't. Where do you think the bulk of the budget went in this film?
Well, a lot of it was the I mean, how much was Sly paid for this? That's an interesting question.
Well, did he get paid three times?
Why? Because he wrote it,
produced it. So, yes.
So, funnily enough, two other people are credited as story and he's got credit as uh screenplay
rather than writer.
Okay. Are any of them actors or directors?
I don't believe so.
But I do think it's funny that they gave two other people the credit for the story when it's the same story that's been made 58,000 times. Yeah.
Yeah.
And I did think it was quite funny when I think within 15 minutes of the film starting, you looked at me and went, "What's the story?"
Yeah.
Yeah. I tried to get you to predict what would happen.
And did I?
Yeah.
Pretty spot on.
Yeah. Because we've all seen it a million times.

(12:58):
Um
I a lot of the the I know that the sequence where they are driving in in a rain
which is just before the third act where Memo has his accident.
Well, that's what I was going to ask about because that is a stunt that was presumably so expensive. They've showed it from multiple well every conceivable angle.
Yeah.
I love a stunt that's so pricey. They show you the same thing 17 times.
That I mean that particular not just that stunt but that whole race would have was very very expensive and perhaps almost certainly was the most expensive part of the movie. The Yeah, that stunt. Obviously, the car goes in the water and the actor playing Memo. Sorry, Memo. I didn't write down your name, but he was in the water with the car uh to get the car in the water in the first place to push it up and to do all of the have the actors there on the day in water.
The insurance alone,
the insurancees would have been astronomical. Yeah, there's that.
But also before that, just from the racing, what Har described in the commentary is that they cars are racing around. You can't if It's not rain. Well, your answer is I guess shoot when it's raining, but um they could I maybe it's a safety thing, but so what they did was they shot bits of the race and they had rigs pouring water down onto the track.
They shot a bit and then they moved all of the rigs to the next part of the track and they shot that
and then they moved all and they shot that.
So like that would have been very time consuming, very expensive. All of that water
just on on set. just chucking water at the cars. The the the safety people, the amount of medics you must have had on set there. Uh yeah, super maybe maybe you're you're whipping out like 10 million of the budget or whatever from that that one sequence alone. Yeah.
But I think it's a very good sequence. I think it's decent.
Genuinely quite memorable. I will say that.
Yeah. And there's there's there's parts of that movie of this movie that I really like and that that's definitely one of them. I think um was it I've made you watch Rush, haven't I?
Yeah. Yeah. And there's a a sequence in that where they're driving in the rain and um
is that the one with um what's his face in Nikki Lauder?
Nikki Lauder is the real Yeah. Nikki Lauder is the real guy.
Daniel Brawl plays Nikki Lauder. Yeah. And um Thor Hemsworth James.

(13:19):
Yeah, we have watched that.
We have watched it. That's another movie that I love and it's about cars. So surprisingly,
there's a theme here.
Yeah. But that's a really good sort of racing in a race sequence. And this is good, too. And you you you have the po the bit Unfortunately, when you're driving in the CGI rain comes onto the visor of of of the of the of the helmet. But don't hate it. I think it's actually it's all right. You know, it's I I can't defend this film. It's rubbish. I I'm not going to defend it.
I knew this would be a role rehearsal of last week.
Yeah, it's crap. It's objectively crap. And if I wasn't into racing, I would hate it and I wouldn't watch it. But if you are into racing, I can't help but think that you probably do have this on your DVD shelf. And it's kind of a guilty pleasure. And yes, I do watch some of those scenes in isolation sometimes on YouTube. I'll go in and just see the bit when the fat boy slim track comes on. He goes, they go, "Oh, you're an old man." He goes, "No, yeah, I'm an old man, but I'm going to go I can still keep up with you, Jimmy Blly." And they go down and they put their foot down. Cuz did you know if you want to overtake someone, you just go faster.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. I did learn things watching this film.
I love it when they do the camera zoom. They do it on all car movies. They do the zoom into the foot and they just go like Oh, so you just have to put your foot down a bit then, do you? As simple as that.
There's not many films that really get the essence of like what it is to to follow the racing line and being the the the the slipstream the toe get the toe of the car in front of you and pass them at the correct moment. There's not many films that actually do that. Well,
did Gran Turismo do that?
Gran Turismo is pretty good on the racing. I would say uh Ford v Ferrari is excellent on a racing.
I haven't seen that one.
Are you Have you not?
No.
Oh, no. Oh, we must rectify that very soon.
Oh s***, what have I done?
Yeah, it might. I think the thing is about Ford v Ferrari is that is just an all round excellent movie. The racing's really good. The acting is brilliant. The story is fascinating particularly if you like that sort of thing. Another one that is a guilty pleasure is Need for Speed which was kind of it I think it the options were this Judge Dread or or Need for Speed. Um but I enjoy that one. Kind of the racing is very good in that as well. There's a lot of practical stuff in that way. more practical stuff in that movie than there is in this film. So, I guess by definition, it's kind of more realistic, but there's not many films that actually nail the racing experience. I feel like this film does a relatively good job at some of the spirit of it,
like overcoming um psychological issues, committing to something if like that kind of attitude, I guess. But I guess that's just sports movies in general really. So, going back to last week again,
we talked about the idea of Tang Girl being remade. Would you be up for a remake of Driven?

(13:40):
Oh, hell yeah.
Yeah, I would.
How would you change it?
Well, I'd make it good.
I want it to be good.
That's such a great idea. I'd never thought of that.
Well, make it about Formula 1.
Yeah.
Yeah. Okay.
Cuz some of those tracks in America, they're just circles. I know. Like, that's not exciting to me. So, make it about Formula 1. Maybe I don't know who I would cast. I would I would make it I I don't know. I think I maybe I would obviously I wouldn't cast Sly in a remake,
but I probably would be more interested in that character returning to the sport after some kind of
Maybe he's the Bert Reynolds.
Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, it's like tort face.
Yeah. Um Yeah. I think I'd sort of maybe make it more about that character returning after being like in an accident or whatever. Like a interesting movie to me would be Daniel like if it was Daniel Cardo if it was based on him for example who's a racer that everyone loves really funny guy but kind of underperformed in his career and it's quite sad that he he doesn't have a seat anymore but make it about him getting a seat again. It's really charismatic guy under it's the underdog thing where he never really reached the kind of level that you thought that he would. He had the skill but never quite got there but really nice likable guy. He's got the charisma and then he starts to win and you can really get behind that character. So I'd maybe make it about Sly but let's call him Daniel Ricardo. Make him Australian.
Okay.
I don't know who else you cast. I wouldn't cast Kipu and I really just get a new script that Renie Harland is not allowed anywhere near it.
So to improve it, remove the romance element entirely. um make the rivalry between the two primary drivers um have homoerotic undertones. Yeah.
And actually they're fighting their feelings for one another.
I Yeah, I like that idea actually. Yeah.
And then at the end they get therapy and live happily ever after.
Yeah. And you can really dig into like why how this male-dominated sport works.

(14:01):
Yeah. Don't don't bring back the journalist though.
You don't need to, but you can explore those themes. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder what themes they're going to explore in the Formula 1 movie.
Cargo Fast.
Yeah, I think so. Cargo Fast and Look Good.
Yeah.
Cargo Fast and this real car that go fast.
Sound probably going to be the extent of it.
Yeah. And I can't wait.
So, we watched Driven.
Yes. Finally, you watched it with me.
Yes.
And we've covered it. I was dead excited for this one to watch it and record the episode on it. And I'm sad that it's now over.
So, Would you would you watch it with me again though knowing that I was going to be a sarcastic b**** throughout? Would you?
It's part of the fun. I enjoy watching it.
Well, then I in that in that case I would tentatively watch this movie.
Let's just smash in a load of beers and just you just have a good time just tearing it a new one because I said many times this is not a good film.
No.
And I can fully admit that. And there's stuff that makes me roar with laughter that what am I a piece of wood line for example? Don't be an old fish like That's it's ridiculous the stuff in this and even some of the racing stuff is so absurd and unrealistic that it's you can't do anything else but laugh at it even if you're a fan of this stuff.
So like I'm not so married to it that I'm like oh no she's laughing at this film not I laugh cuz it's crap.
Yeah.
It's total dog s***

(14:22):
but I love it and it's fun and if we can share it I'd be happy.
Okay.
So does that mean you're also going to be watching it yearly like me?
Yearly? I don't know about yearly. All right. You don't have to watch it yearly. How many times have I have I watched some of your films that you like?
You have watched Empire Records multiple times.
I watch that yearly.
You do?
Yeah.
I need a yearly one. What's my yearly one going to be?
Um, maybe it can be All right. Maybe it can be driven.
All right.
We'll assign a day to driven.
I think that's fair. If you get high records, I I should get driven. I think
we have Rex Manning Day and then we'll have Joe Tanto day later on in the year.
I wonder what day Joe Tanto is
I don't know.
January the 3rd, JT. January the 30th.
Okay,
let's not do the 3rd cuz that's too close to Christmas. Oh, that is the Christmas period. We can watch it at Christmas.
Oh, and the Formula One season's not on then as well, so I can get my racing fix.
What are we doing next week, Dan?

(14:43):
I was getting on to that because we were talking about films that you've made me watch many, many times. And that is a film that we're covering next week. Sarah, it's back to you. So, I think you should introduce what we're doing next week.
I'm so excited.
I know you do.
I'm like like vibrating with it.
I can see you vibrating on the chair.
Um we are doing Labyrinth.
Labyrinth. Yeah.
Yeah.
Get ready for that soundtrack for the next week.
I didn't know that this was a flop.
Yes.
Wow, that's interesting.
Yeah.
Okay.
I wonder why.
I don't know why.
I mean, it's a pretty hard cell. It's a strange film.
It is a strange film, but um
we'll talk more about that.
We'll get into it next week.