Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas - S11 E90

This week on Shoot the Hostage, Sarah and Dan are taking a hit out of the little brown bottle as they dive headfirst into the quintessential drug-induced fever dream that is Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas (1998).

Join us as we navigate the most paranoid movie known to man, based on Hunter S. Thompson’s unreadably long-titled 1971 book.

We’ll explore why Johnny Depp’s portrayal of Raoul Duke might be his career best, topped only by his co-star Benicio del Toro as Dr. Gonzo, the lawyer who leads you astray, overpays for lemon meringue pie and steals every scene he’s in.  

Director Terry Gilliam was the perfect choice for this savage journey to the heart of the American dream, infusing it with his signature blend of surrealism, satire and more Dutch angles than you can shake a stick at.

What to expect from the episode:

• The casting choices of Johnny Depp and Benicio del Toro and what could have been if the project had gotten off the ground in the 1970’s.
• Discussion around Terry Gilliams work and his surreal style, from Dutch angles to reptile people (thank you Rob Bottin).
• How the film captures the end of the American Dream.
• Discussions on Gonzo journalism and its relevance to modern documentary filmmaking.
• Our take on the Christina Ricci scene and why is still makes us uncomfortable
• Whether the movie glorifies drugs or is a cautionary tale of hedonism.

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hello and welcome to Shoot the Hostage with me, Sarah, and my partner Dan. We're a movie podcast and we cover eight films per season on a specific theme. Now, we swear we chat major spoilers and we occasionally cover triggering topics. So, please do use listener discretion. If you like what we do and want to support us, consider hitting five stars on Spotify or maybe subscribing or even reviewing on your platform of choice. We also have a Patreon with a free tier for lineups and updates and two paid tiers with extra cont. content and early ad free uploads. Right, on with the show. Sarah, as your attorney, I advise you to take a hit out of the little brown bottle in my shaving kit.

(00:01):
I don't think that's wise. Do you?
I reckon you I, as your attorney, I advise you to take a hit out of the little brown bottle in my shaving kit and then wait an hour and then we'll come back and record the podcast, shall we? Cuz we want to be authentic, I think.
Um,
Gonzo podcastism.
Gon podcastism.
Yeah.
Love it. Um, yeah, I won't be doing that.
No.
No. FYI.
All right. I'll do it for you then.
Okay. Do I still have to wait an hour.
No, we'll just see like as maybe we won't. We'll just carry on recording and at some point I might end up on the ceiling and you can go, "Oh, the liquid in the little brown bottle in your shaving kit is actually starting to work." Um, and we'll see what happens from there. I guess
if the rest of this the rest of the podcast can be from the ceiling, that that's fine. That works.
Does it?
Yeah, I think so.
If you've got any little brown bottles in your shaving kit, it's going to be beard oil.
Yeah.
Which I don't imagine is going to get you very high.
I don't know. Has anyone ever tried drinking beard oil?
No.
Maybe someone No, you shouldn't do that.

(00:22):
As your attorney, I'd advise that you don't tell people to do that.
To drink beard oil.
Yeah. Okay.
Don't do any of those things, obviously. Um, this is the last episode of the season of your season of movies about drugs. Sarah, how do you feel about that?
Exhausted.
Really,
actually. Yeah.
Because of all the movies that you chose.
Yeah. I know, I know. I have nobody else to blame but myself, as per usual, but um yeah, it's been it's been hard going.
It's been a journey.
Yeah,
there's been some highs, there's been some lows.
See what you did there.
There's been some arms off.
Um yeah, it's been a real It's been a real roller coaster kind of season, I think. Probably more than it has been in a while.
I would agree. Yeah.
And uh but we're at the end.
Yeah.
So, it's the last one. You decided to finish off the season.
Mhm.
With perhaps the quintessential uh let's say portrayal of drug induced situations.

(00:43):
The most on film,
most paranoid movie known to man.
Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Fear and Loven in in Las Vegas. Uh it's again it's a movie. It's a a podcast of seconds for us.
Okay.
It's well it's our first let's start with it's our first Johnny Depp movie, right? Unless he was cameoed in something else that I've forgotten about.
I don't believe so. I think that one is a first. It's our second Benio Del Toro movie.
Yes. Yeah. Our first being The Way of the Gun, which we spoke about with Chris from Just a Thing.
It's our second Janette Goldstein movie.
Oh, yeah. First being Near Dark, of course.
Yeah. And
I forgot she was in this.
So did I.
There's so many cameos.
There are so many cameos. Um It's our second Craig Biero movie.
Oh yeah. Yeah. When when we were watching this the other night, I was like, "Was that guy in the 13th floor? He looks familiar."
I didn't clock it at all. And then when you said that, I was like, "Oh, yeah.
Yeah." Which we've covered. Craig Bio made two movies. He did.
We covered both of them. I'm sure he's done way more. Um, this is our second movie about a journalist who worked for Rolling Stone at some point.
Oh, of course. Almost famous.
Isn't that crazy? I didn't quite specific.
You chose both of them.

(01:04):
Yeah.
How funny. You do have like quite an interest in music, don't you? And that that era of kind of ' 70s uh well movies and music really just the ' 70s as a as a decade, as a movement, as a culture. You the clothing like that. You have a real fixation on it, don't you?
I do. I think it's um I think it's somewhat of a romanticization though because I didn't live through the ' 70s. So perhaps people who did wouldn't look back on it. quite so fondly, but I have this weird sort of borrowed nostalgia for that decade.
Yeah. So, Nix Nixon not your favorite president?
No.
No.
I don't I don't think I have a favorite president now that you said that.
No. Who's the least worst? I don't know. This is not a discussion for now. Maybe when we do a season of film presidents or whatever, but I don't it's not going to happen.
Look, it's a Sunday afternoon. I don't feel like getting I rate this afternoon, so let's leave that one.
Fair enough. It's uh based on book.
Yeah.
Based on a a book that came out in 1971 written by Hunter S. Thompson. Do you know the full title of the book?
I don't. I've never read it. Have you?
A bit of a mouthful. I have read it. Um and I liked it. Okay.
I saw the obviously saw the movie first and went back and caught the book maybe about I want to say I read that about 2005 2006 maybe.
Okay.
It was quite a small book if I remember correctly. I've probably got it. It's probably in a loft somewhere. eaten by mice.
Probably been eaten by mice. It's fine. I've read it. They They need it for their home.
I I'm joking. Let's Let's Let's catch them and chuck them in the river.
Oh my god.
One extreme to the other.

(01:25):
Yeah,
you never know what you're going to get.
What a roller coaster.
I think that little that liquid in that little brown bottle is starting to kick in. So, blame everything on that from this point forward.
Yeah, sure.
Quite enjoyed the book. I think it's remarkably similar to the movie if I remember correctly. Pretty much identical.
Okay. If I remember correctly, it was a long time since I read it. 20 years at this point, but yeah, I think it was pretty much the same, but there was some stuff at the start of the book that wasn't in the movie, I think. But yeah, the full title of the book is Fear and Loa in Las Vegas, a savage journey to the heart of the American dream.
That's too long.
It's way too long. Obviously, for the for the movie, they decided to drop that the second part of that and just call it Fear and Loa in Las Vegas, which I think was the right move.
Yeah.
Otherwise, you're getting into Borat cultural learnings for make benefit glorious nation of Kazakhstan type situation
and who can who has the time
who has the time yeah Sasha Baron Cohen apparently uh so yeah based on based on um based on book we do a lot of those and
we do I think I don't know if that's sort of I don't know if that speaks to our love of adaptations or just a lack of original ideas in Hollywood.
Yeah, probably a bit of both.
Yeah,
it's Yeah. So 71 the book came out and as early as 1976 they were trying to get a production a film production off the ground.
Holy s***.
Apparently Martin Scorsesei someone called Ralph Bakshi who I'm not familiar with.
No, don't know that name.
And Oliver Stone. They

(01:46):
I I read about Scorsese and Stone.
Okay.
And that they had some involvement over the years. Yeah.
Yeah. I It feels kind of a bit Oliver Stone to me as well.
Way more Stone than Scorsese. Yeah.
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. For sure. Like a lot of Obviously, we'll get into the the film and how it was shot and presented to us, but very surreal by nature. I feel like Stone did that a lot
with um what's the murder ones? Natural Naturalborn Killers. Yeah, that you did. You ever watch U-turn, which came out to a similar time to Fear and Loathing?
Yes.
Yeah, that's got maybe it's just that kind of dry deserty type vibe, but yeah, similar in in the way that it's presented, I think. So, I can see Stone.
I can sort of see his DNA. Whether that's actual or I'm just projecting that, I don't know. But I can see that for sure apparently. Did you um hear about any of the a couple of pairings that were kind of floated as ideas in terms of the two leads for the
Yeah, I heard a really bizarre one. Um I think I read Jack Nicholson and Marlon Brando.
Yeah.
No.
Yeah.
No,
I I wouldn't mind be living in the universe, albeit temporarily, to watch that movie where that exists.
I mean, oh look, maybe it's just my sort of resistance to Marlon Brando and just the stories of how f****** difficult he was to work with and he just seemed like a kind of a douchebag.
Yeah. And
I think Nicholson could have nailed it.
Uh, which way round do you do it? I think I put Brando as Dr. Gonzo.
Yeah, it would have to be.

(02:07):
And Jack Nicholson as the straight man rail juke.
Sure.
Go on. Were there are there any other pairings that were talked about.
Yeah, I wrote down one other pair, Dan Akroyd and John Belalushi.
Okay.
But obviously I think that sort of went away when Belushi
uh died.
That would have um yeah had a huge that would have been a big stumbling block to that casting.
It becomes very difficult to make a movie at that point unless you're a Fast and Furious movie apparently
when it doesn't matter if you're dead.
Less said about that the better.
Yeah. Yeah.
Christ.
But that's that's it on the pairings that I read. Would there any other casting choices, potential casting choices that you read about?
No. No. The just the the Brando and Nicholson one kind of stopped me in my tracks.
That would have been deeply odd.
I'm kind of fascinated by that though. I would, like I said, would like to see what that would have been.
Well, Nicholson does unhinged so so well.
Yeah.
So, I think that could have been really interesting.
And Marlon Brando was unhinged

(02:28):
and often unintelligible. So, not unlike the pairing that we got.
It would have taken forever cuz he would have demanded crew members place a ice bucket on top his head with ice.
He would expect a mini me to follow him around and like Yeah,
it's just pro. It's problems.
Yeah,
it's problems all around really
with that with that man, wasn't it?
We need to cover that movie that we're referencing,
the island of the island of Dr. Maro. We need to cover that at some point.
Oh, flop season two, baby.
Yeah. Even if it's just excuse to watch that documentary again. Lost Souls was it?
Yeah.
God, what a fascinating documentary that was,
right?
Um, I think it's because of sort of my brains in the '9s. So, I'm thinking about for some reason the island of Dr. Maro, but I think so. So, so it didn't obviously happen in the 80s. The production I think it probably went away for a little while. Returned in the early 90s around ' 92, I think. Uh, so it was in production for for, you know, in development. and pre-production for a while. Uh, Depp came on board and he really wanted a director called Bruce Robinson who I don't know who you're if you're familiar with the work of Bruce Robinson, but he directed with Now an eye.
Oh, how weird.
Yeah. And he um he directed a movie called How to Get Ahead in Advertising. Have you seen that?
Uh, I haven't seen it. No. Heard of it but not seen it.
Yeah. I kind of keen to watch. It's been so long since I've seen it. I remember catching it on TV and it just been one of the most bizarre things that I'd seen
really.
And yeah, yeah, I think we should watch it. We should we should try and get a hold of a copy of it and give it a watch cuz it's been a while and I think it was I I think I was too young to get what it was fully doing, but yet I I enjoy I enjoyed it regardless.

(02:49):
Bizarre, you say?
Yeah,
you son of a b****. I'm in.
Um, and Bruce Robinson actually went on very very later to direct the Rum Diary with Johnny Depp, which
I was going to say that was Depp. as well, was it?
Yeah. Um, based on a book by Hunter S. Thompson.
Oh, no way.
Yeah. So, um, another link there.
I did read that Alex Cox was originally supposed to direct as well.
Oh, was Alex Cox credited as a writer on
I believe he was. Yes,
I remember seeing the name. Okay.
So, he must have contributed enough to warrant the credit before he exited the project. Um, I I did read that it was just differences, creative differences.
Yeah.
Disagreements, but I would have been interested in that. as well. I think Gillian was the the right call.
Absolutely.
But I would have been interested in that one cuz I like Repo Man. I like Sid and Nancy.
Oh, Alex Cox is responsible for those.
Yeah.
Right.
I would have been interested to see where that went.

(03:10):
Yeah. Yeah. Again, like interesting ideas. I do think ultimately that the version that we got is perfect as it is. I think Gileiam is the perfect choice for this.
Yeah.
I can't see I can't I can't I struggle to name you a director. working then or working now that I think would be a better fit for this. And I'm really glad that he came on board. I guess around the the mid '9s kind of area. So he would have been around about his 12 Monkeys era.
Okay. When was that? Was that 95?
I think 90 I think that was 95 or 96 I think. Yes. So the project directly before Fear and Loa.
Okay. I feel like you're a little bit more familiar with Terry Gilliams back catalog than I am.
Would you say so? How's your How's Right. Let's do a a big Gilly style quiz.
Big Gilly style. Okay,
let's
I didn't I I did not know there was to be a quiz today.
There's always risk of a quiz. Have you It's not really a quiz. It's just me asking you, have you seen Time Bandits?
Yes, but probably not since I was a child.
Yeah, I I caught it a few months ago, actually, when I was staying in a hotel and you're stuck with terrestrial television.
Oh, yeah. It's both good and bad. It's it's it's bad because you're stuck watching often a terrible Mark Wahberg movie. Um
otherwise known as a Mark Wahberg movie.
Yeah.
f****** I watched Father Stew on my travels.
Oh, you were the you were the one.
Sarah, it's not good. Don't watch it.
No, I wasn't intending to.
Uh so it's it's bad for that. But the the good thing is that because your options are limited, it does mean that sometimes I watch things I probably wouldn't have gotten around to watching or the re-watching.

(03:31):
Yeah.
And uh Time Bandit does fall into that because I I hadn't seen it for years and years and years since I was a kid. And I'm really glad I caught it as an adult, particularly in relation to obviously covering a a Gilam movie and it was really fun to rewatch it. Another one um oddly I don't know if they were just doing a Terry Gilliam season or whatever, but I think within the same week or two they also showed The Adventures of Baron Munchousen.
Oh. You mentioned that briefly in the the Go episode, didn't you?
Yes. Yes. And that was I watched that. I remember that was coming on. I was thinking, "Oh, good. I can tick off Sarah Polly and Gilam for a later episode." So that's what I did. And again, hadn't seen it since I was a kid. Maybe I'd only seen it once or something. But it was one of those that remember when you there were certain VHS's you watched as a kid that you would watch over and over again. For me, it was the Terminator and, you know, a few others. Total Recall probably had Arnold Schwarzenegger. in it.
You like those movies, do you?
I do. Yeah. I don't never mentioned it before and I won't ever mention it again.
But there are certain videos that I used to watch over and over again, certain tapes, but that also meant I would watch the trailers for whatever trailers they had on those tapes over and over again. I'm not sure what tape this would uh adventures of Baron Munch and the trailer would have been on, but whatever it was, it's a film I watched a lot.
And so there's certain scenes in it that just sort of stuck with me.
Yeah.
And it was fun to watch. whole thing. Um, wasn't expecting to see Robin Williams in it. He is just he just has a very weird brain and it's just incredibly surreal and creative and it doesn't always work his stuff, I don't think. But I feel like
his earlier career is more sort of fantasy whimsy sort of uh but but like tongue and cheek and a bit um a bit mean-spirited sometimes like poking fun at things and but mostly establishments I would even in his earlier work. And then you get to things like 12 Monkeys where it's just like, yeah, the whole human race dies. So, I feel like he's a very uh like critical kind of anti-establishment sort of filmmaker guy. He wants to provoke a little bit.
Two thumbs up.
Two thumbs up. Absolutely.
I did read somewhere actually that he wanted this to be one of the greatest films of all time, but also one of the most hated films of all time.
And when I read that, I was just like, has he met Gasper. Noway.
Yeah,
perhaps they would get along.
Yeah, I don't know. I think that's a whole different level um going into our climax show. Have you seen Brazil?
I do. You know what? I'm just looking at his um his filmography now. And I know I said that I think you're a little bit more familiar than I am, but actually I've seen most of these.
I've seen Brazil. Yes, I've seen 12 Monkeys. I always forget 12 Monkeys is him to be honest.
Doing a sequel to that soon as well.

(03:52):
Really? 13 Monkeys.
Are you joking?
Yeah.
Is there really going to be a sequel?
No.
Oh, damn. To Golivore. Um, obviously Holy Grail.
Oh, do you know what I Gilliam? I always forget.
We can't not mention that.
Oh, damn. Maybe that's my favorite Gileiam there. Damn.
One thing I always forget that he did was The Fisher King. Have you seen that?
No, I don't think I have seen that. Robin Williams.
Yes.
Jeff.
Jeff. My name's Jeff.
My name's Jeff. There's definitely a Jeff in it.
Bridges.
Bridges.
Okay. Yeah, I haven't seen it.
I've only seen it once. Um I think I must have rented it on VHS. It was such a long long long time ago,
but it had a really really shocking scene quite near the beginning. And I probably wouldn't find it shocking now, but I would have been young enough that I was like, "Holy s***,
they just did that."

(04:13):
Okay.
Uh I remember it being pretty good though.
I need see it. I think
Yeah,
I've There's a couple of blind spots in my Gilam.
Have you seen The Imaginarium of Dr. Parnasses?
I think I have seen it. Yes. Is that the one that has the last Heath Ledger on screen performance in?
Yeah.
And they end up ended up getting a few different actors to play the same character and make it kind of part of the
They did. Yeah.
Right. Okay.
Um
I have se I think I have seen it, but I don't think think it left much of an impression on me?
No. Likewise. I think I kind of appreciate what they did to they were left in such a difficult
situation obviously when Heath Ledger passed, but I think they went about it in quite a creative way. It just didn't land for me.
It was um very sad all around that one.
Yeah, absolutely.
Have you seen The Brothers Grim?
I don't think I have actually. Actually,
I didn't love that one, which is bizarre because you know me in fairy tale s***.
Yeah,

(04:34):
it's very much my jam.
Who were the Who were the brothers? Grim. Was it Matt Damon and Greg?
Heath Ledger again.
Oh, was it Oh, I'm thinking of stuck on you.
Easy mistake to make.
They're basically interchangeable.
That one was directed by Martin Scorsese.
Um, the only other thing I think I've seen is Tideland.
Oh, I've not heard of that?
You've not heard of it?
Oh, wow. Um, it's really strange. It's really strange and quite dark, but that one's got kind of a fairy tale, like a dark fairy tale edge to it as well.
Um, but it's been a very long time since I've seen it. I would I wouldn't mind watching that again. Okay.
Giving it another go. Jennifer Tilly's in it. Jeff Bridges again, who's worked with the same people quite a few times. That's always a good sign.
Frequent collaborators is always a good sign. Yeah.
Yeah. So, yeah, I've seen way more of those. Oh. Oh, Jabawaki, of course.
Bloody hell.
How do you feel about seeing Kristoff Waltz covered in lube and naked?
Is this relevant?
Maybe.
Or is this a dream you had?
Maybe. I Maybe.

(04:55):
Um, I'm not immediately opposed to the idea.
Okay.
Why do you ask?
Well, you're in luck cuz have you seen the movie The Zero Theorem?
I haven't.
Oh, we should watch it then.
Okay.
I quite liked that film. I think it's sort of one that went a bit under the radar. It's a it's a I am obviously but
I saw it once and was like this was all right. It was very weird but I sort of got it and I feel like at the age that I watched it and I thought that I understood it to me that was a success like uh I don't know but maybe it doesn't kind of hold up as well now or it was too obvious in what it was trying to tell you and sort of hitting you over the head which is probably why I felt I understood it.
Dan, say less. You said it was weird. I'm already in. That's all it takes.
Yeah.
All right. Um, should we talk about the maybe if we're going to start talking about the film a bit more, we should start with the cast.
Mhm.
Cuz we've got Depp, we've got Toro.
Let's get the dep of it all out of the way, shall we?
Let's get the uh Yeah, let's let's address the elephant in the room.
Let's rip that band-aid off.
It's a Johnny Depp movie. He seems like a really good guy, and I think that he is Jesus.
Okay. Uh, I disagree.
Captain Jack Jesus.
I disagree.

(05:16):
Okay.
I think he's a c***.
I actually honestly don't know much about Johnny Depp. I mean, it's it feels weird to say that cuz obviously that trial is was was all over the place, which is a weird thing, by the way.
I hate that the public was so involved with that. We shouldn't have been. That was bizarre. Like you say,
I think really the only people that know what happened in that is is is Amber Herd and Johnny Depp. and everyone's just speculating. I don't know either way.
But what I would like to say I have done enough independent research outside of the biased documentaries on Netflix and the YouTube talking heads that again always have a a preconceived notion of what they think happened. And honestly, I really feel for Amber Heard.
This is this is going to be potentially a really unpopular take. It's just my opinion. I've got no horse in this race. I I don't know. I think she was really done dirty by the whole thing. I think they were both abusive. I think knowing what I know about abusive relationships, I think a lot of what she exhibited was reactive abuse. Um but I'm not saying for a second that she was blameless. I think they're both people that need a heap of therapy.
Yeah.
And I really think the public should never have been dragged into it. We shouldn't have been privy to all of that
it was bizarre.
It was weird.
I don't like it.
Yeah. To turn it into a reality TV show. Honestly, like I know
it's in real people's lives,
celebrities, but they are also human beings and they're not no one's perfect. Um, no one died as far as I'm I I know. But yeah, it sounds like a really unpleasant situation where people two people probably shouldn't have been together and
need therapy as as you say. And that's never going to end well. But it shouldn't end in a way that we're all It should Yeah. It shouldn't end in a public spectacle.
She's a baddie or vice versa. It's not.
Everybody reporting on it has an agenda.
Yeah. Absolutely.
We're never going to know as you said.
Yeah. The like the rage bait um kind of headlines and videos and stuff that were around at that time. And also like it's it was a weird a lot of people that were um I'm thinking of one person in particular, I won't mention his name, but a uh I suppose a movie journalist on YouTube was kind of cancelled. around about the use the term council whatever you know he was

(05:37):
he suffered some consequences for his actions uh around about the me too um kind of era and went away for a while and came back um and kind of blew up again when he was defending Johnny Depp during that trial. So I'm not
read between the lines is what I'm saying.
Okay.
You know there's there's I think I feel like a lot of people that went to bat for Johnny Depp might not
didn't have the cleanest records
the cleanest records
and maybe the clearest um the correct opinions about uh abuse and all of that stuff. So
yeah, I just think
it's
it's I don't know. I find it weird that people go to such lengths to defend a total stranger.
Yeah. You don't f****** know.
Yeah. You don't have to get clothed.
You can like think what you think. Everyone's entitled to the opinion. But when you're getting on a a lectern going, he is definitely innocent. You don't know.
Yeah. Nobody knows. Yeah. And it's hypocritical of me to say that because I am in fact airing my opin right now.
Yeah. Yeah.
But, you know, at least I'm self-aware about it.
Yeah.
But yeah, I look, I don't like the guy.
Yeah.
But this is one of the reasons I don't like knowing as much as we do about stars because as a movie fan, it affects my movie going experience. It's really hard to put all that baggage aside and accept them as a fictional character.
Yeah.

(05:58):
Because the whole time I'm just thinking, he's piece of s***. How were you were you able to set that aside somewhat for this viewing?
Look, I've had to do this three weeks on the trot now.
Yeah.
Of my own making. This is my own fault.
Yeah. Well, we had Franco Leto.
Yeah.
Um Yeah, I was I was
Okay, good.
I do think in certain circumstances I I do believe in separating the art from the artist because as you've said before, I wholeheartedly agree with the fact that Especially when it comes to movies and TV, there are so many moving parts. There are so many people involved.
It's not fair to tar an entire project with the same brush just because of one person's involvement.
Yeah, agreed. Agreed. And what did you think if you are separating your own opinions on the man, what did you think initially of his performance and what did you because you've seen this film before.
Yeah. um a lot. Have you seen it a lot or?
Do you know what? When we went into this, I was under the impression I'd only seen it once before, but it was all so familiar to me. I think I'm must have watched it more than once back in the day.
Okay. So, watching it this time then, cuz I'm assuming it's been a while.
Yeah. Long time.
And you, you know, since all of this stuff has been uncovered about people's personal lives and but you were able to separate yourself a little bit from that. What did you
think about Johnny Depp's performance in Fear and Loven and what did you remember about it originally. Did you
I think he's fantastic in this.
Right.
I think his performance is excellent. I think maybe never better.
I'm trying to think of a Johnny Depp performance that might be better than this or that I enjoy more.

(06:19):
Sarah, have you seen Pirates of the Caribbean 7?
No.
Then you don't you haven't seen his best performance yet, then have you?
He's Jack Sparrow. Sarah, he just does something different in every Pirates movie.
Well, this is the thing. In addition to me not liking him as a human, from based on what I know. I'm no expert. I also don't love him as an actor because I think he works with Tim Burton way too much.
Yeah.
I think some of the stuff that I've seen like uh Charlie in the Chocolate Factory. Um Alice in Wonderland. Awful.
I will be bringing up Alice in Wonderland again during this show.
Okay. Yes. I mean I I think I know what you're getting out there. Yeah.
But yeah, I don't know. It's just so many of his performances that I don't love. because he's just too too out there.
Yeah,
I don't agree.
I don't get along with him. Oh my god. Tusk.
Oh, I haven't seen that though. No doubt you'll make me watch it at some point.
Rough.
Yeah, that's I feel like he was making
more interesting choices back then in the ' 90s. I feel like he was trying to take more risks. Obviously, we get into the early 2000s with Pirates of the Caribbean and that was such a monumental success and just put him on a whole whole new level. He was already probably one of the top five movie stars working during the '90s. Yeah, I would say,
but like catastrophic um when Pirates of the Caribbean hit and cuz they they made so much money and they were enormous and for some whatever reason, I guess the answer is money. He decided to just keep doing them and sort of lost touch with making interesting choices
and and maybe in that sort of lost himself a bit as well, you know, was when you sort of succumb to the the disification of uh modern cinema so so much and that's just all you do for 10 15 years then yeah you're going to lose your artistic integrity to some degree. I'm sure there's stuff that you can do to balance that but then he he didn't I don't think really what interesting stuff has he done in the last 20 years genuine genuinely
I honestly don't know
I mean I didn't mind the movie transcendence a lot of people hated it.

(06:40):
I haven't seen that one.
It's um it's I didn't mind it. It's like a high concept sci-fi uh idea that I it was more interesting the premise of it which it sort of hooked me in and I was like, "Yeah, this is fine." Like could have been way better, but
directed by uh
Christopher Nolan's cinematographer Wally Fister. I think it was his first directing.
What an unfortunate name.
Silent P. Silent P. Yeah. So, um, yeah, he hasn't done much recently that I would that would probably ever make it onto one of my seasons. Put it put it that way. But I do think that he's excellent in this. And I think maybe my favorite Johnny Depp performance. I don't actually I don't think anything comes close to be honest. For me anyway.
I liked it when he got eaten by that bed in Nightmare and Elm Street.
Yeah, that was good, wasn't it? Yeah. Wearing a crop top.
Look, I would be quite happy to go back to a time when and thought being masculine meant wearing crop tops and short shorts.
I can start wear rocking a crop top if you like.
Do it.
Yeah. All right. I will. I
bring a mustache back as well.
Bring Well, my must Yeah. All right. Well, I've got a little bit of a mustache still, but it's it's now hidden by the rest of my beard.
Make bold choices.
Yeah. Do you think that Benio Del Toro made bold choices in this movie?
He made some choices, didn't he? Honestly, I think Benio Del Toro is better than Johnny Derp in this. I think he pips him just a little bit. They're both great, don't get me wrong, but I think Benio Del Toro is phenomenal in this movie.
I agree. As much as this is my favorite dep performance and and I I love his take on the character Ral Juke in this
Yeah.
I think Benio Del Toro is so magnificent.
He just goes all in.

(07:01):
He just completely steals it.
Yeah.
And like you say, he goes all in. He's scary. He's funny. He has moments where seems quote unquote normal, but like those moves a few. Yeah.
Uh and he's he's he's R Juke's attorney. And I love that kind of um what they're going for with that, like the the the kind of the law, the advisory figure being the one that's leading you astray and to towards demise essentially. But I think Del Toro's performance is so specific and so unpredictable. Like I say, scary in places, funny in places. I feel genuine fear for some of the conversations and he has with
Oh yeah.
Um some of the female characters in this like really like you don't know what's going to happen. It's unpredictable.
Particularly like Christina Richi's character like
Came Diaz.
Yeah.
In the um in the elevator with the knife. Yeah. Just
he's way too happy to wield a knife.
Yeah.
Way too happy.
It's mad. And I I think Del Toro is one of those I'm sure we spoke about it in our the way of the gun episode,
but he's kind of one of those actors who's a bit of a chameleon to me. Like, he can just completely get lost in a character.
Yeah. Well, look, he won an Oscar for a reason.
Yeah, true.
He's great.
True.
But yeah, I think we're maybe a bit more used to seeing him in serious roles or I am anyway. So, this is just like next level.
Yeah,

(07:22):
he is. I'm trying to think what I can even liken it to. Like, if you told me that his character was a tiny bit of it was the inspiration for like Charlie and it's Always Sunny. I could believe that.
Yeah.
Just absolute wild card behavior.
Yeah. I mean, didn't you see him eating cat food throughout the entire movie?
Yeah. He's great. He's great.
I think the only thing he didn't do in this movie was huff paint, though.
Yeah. He did that off screen, I think. Yeah.
Cameos in this movie. There were so many
people that I didn't um I didn't remember being in it to be frank. Like Vern Troyer is in it. We mentioned
Cameron Diaz already.
Janette Goldstein. You mentioned
Christina Richi.
Gary Booy.
Gary Booy. I'd completely forgotten he was in it. Craig BO.
Craig BO. Obviously. Yeah. He wasn't Portuguese though.
No.
No.
Um Toby Maguire.
Oh, yeah.
Your favorite.
Yeah.

(07:43):
Do you think that him being in this movie was a reaction to him not being in Empire Records.
The literally the first note that I made is that Tommy Maguire wasn't acting. He just did drugs on the set of Empire Records, went a little bit insane, and was just roaming the desert for three years until he was picked up
by Johnny Depp.
Yeah. Okay, I like that.
That's cannon now.
Yeah. I'd forgotten he was in it so early. In my mind, I thought it was in like the middle of the movie, but it's I guess he's in it a couple of times.
He would wouldn't wear he wouldn't shave his head.
He He wouldn't shave his head.
He refused to shave his head. He's so precious.
Yeah.
So, they said that to write it into his contract that he would have to shave his head would have cost an extra 15 grand.
So, they said they were already over budget, so they couldn't do that. But then, because he refused to shave his head, they had to use wigs, prosthetics, and um like computer effects to remove the line around his his hairline.
So, it ended up costing way more than 15 grand. Any way.
Yeah.
Just because he wouldn't shave his head.
I mean, it's it's his choice.
I would shave my head for a movie.
I mean, it depends on the movie. I would shave my head for this movie. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe not for Empire Records.
I would shave my head for Empire Records. Robin Tony shaved her head for Empire Records.
Robin Tunny actually did. Yeah, you're right. All things come back to Empire Records, don't they?
In a perfect world. Yes.

(08:04):
Yeah.
Who else have we got then?
Oh, that was all I wrote down for cameos. Can you remember any others?
The only one I remember is Lorraine. Newman from SNL.
I'm not familiar with Lorraine Newman.
She was portrayed in Saturday Night.
Mhm.
Um, and she's I think she's the mother of the I forget her name, but the younger character in Hacks,
right? Okay.
She's a Nepo baby.
Yeah.
But yeah, I can't remember. There was so many. There were just so many.
It was It was a real sort of scatter gun. Here's a famous face. Here's a famous face. Here's another one.
Yeah.
And I'd completely forgotten. Me too. I'd completely forgotten. One I hadn't forgotten is the appearance by uh Hunter S. Thompson himself.
Oh yeah.
In a really clever scene.
I don't know a great deal about Hunter S. Thompson.
Okay.
I feel like you know more.
Uh I mean I have a cigarette holder

(08:25):
and a bucket hat.
And a bucket hat. Yeah.
And a visor.
And a And a
And you're wearing a Hawaiian shirt. Yeah. You're very themed today. Very on brand.
Yeah.
Um so tell me what you know about I honestly honestly I don't know that much about him. I've seen this film. I've read the book uh that this film is based on. I've watched a few interviews over the years and all I know really is that he was kind of a self-taught writer I think where he worked for the military in the late 50s. Really? So I'm guessing a lot of his disillusionment may have stemmed from some of his early experiences
maybe in in the military. have explained why he was so anti-establishment.
Yeah.
Yeah. Kind of honed his craft doing that. Became a sports journalist. Did a bit of everything. Apparently was in the Watergate Hotel when they broke in.
Really
was in the bar. Of course he was in a bar. Where else would he have been? Yeah. Apparently that's irony there. But yeah, apart from that, I don't know too much about him as a man. Uh Gonzo journalism as a as a concept is something I hadn't heard of. until until I watched Fear and Oven back in 989.
Is Gonzo journalism a Hunter S Thompson thing or was he just like a proponent of it?
I think it's his thing. I think he was like all things they're inspired by the things that came before them. So I think like the new kind of wave of journalism in the '60s which we spoke about briefly in our almost famous episode with like Lester Bangs doing the Rolling Stones things uh who I believe was a a big fan of the Gonzo movement that came later. Okay.
Um I I believe he kind of came up with this concept himself where you would filter the the subject matter, the subject that you're covering through yourself and your own opinions. And obviously journalism before that and some people argue should be completely unbiased. I think there's room for all of it to be honest as long as you're savvy as a consumer.
Yeah. And I think do you think the journalists have an obligation to declare whether they've got a bias or do you think
Yeah, I think so.
You you do think they should declare it or do you think it is on the the consumer to apply a bit of nuance and discern
I think um
their bias themselves.
I think that's an interesting question. I think my initial reaction was yeah I think you should declare it but then I don't want that to remove any of the the sting or the point of that it's trying to make.

(08:46):
I don't want it to take me out of it. So maybe is more of a it's on you to kind of discern it. You know, sat watching satire and um comedy just comedy in general like the it's about the um the intentions of of the joke and what it's trying to portray and tell you about. And um Oh, yeah. It's probably more of a a viewer discretion situation, I would say.
It's an interesting question to ponder, though.
Yeah, I do love the concept of Gonzo journalism. Like I say, I think it's the first time I became aware of it was uh when I watched this movie and did some light digging into it over the years since. But when I think about it, the type of journalism that I really enjoy, you probably could describe it as Gonzo journalism. Uh the most obvious example I can think of is Louis Thoru where he is very much part of it. You watch a Louis Thuru documentary because you want to see a Louis Thuru documentary, right? You want to see him
That's true. Yeah.
Look at
certain subjects, serious subjects, whether that's or p*** industry or or rapping, you know,
or Jimmy Savile.
Yeah. Or Jimmy Savile. But you want to see it via Louis Thorough, but via his
So that's what Gonzo journalism is then because I don't see Louis Thoru as somebody who's got a really apparent bias. But you're right, you are consuming it with him as your proxy.
Yeah, I think there is a clear bias.
Do you
with um Louisa? I do, but I think it's um It's subtle in that he doesn't really declare it and he he's not even the way he frames his questions.
Uh but I think I think that there is a clear um opinion there. But
that's interesting. I've never really thought about it like that.
But it's not it's not just I mean for me it's not just um understanding what his opinion might be on it, but this just the fact that the way that he asked the questions and and the his technique does seem to allow people people to open up sometimes. I mean, not like the Nazis, they didn't open up very much, but
it does seem to be that he just he doesn't say very much of anything
and most people are so are made so nervous by silence that they will then feel it.
Yeah.
Which is fascinating.
I think that's taking, you know, allowing people to let their guards down, whether that's via being trusted as a journalist or maybe creating an awkward silence where people feel like they've got fill the air like you say or whether that's being a complete madman like Hunter S. Thompson and provoking to the point where people are confused and just give you weird information that they never would. I don't I don't know. I don't think Louis Thuru is provocative in the same way.
No,

(09:07):
but I feel like there is a definitely a throughine um a through line there. I think Lou Thuru is provocative in other more subtle ways and uh
well he I guess he's provocative in the topics that he chooses to cover.
Yeah, that's True. Yeah, that's true.
He never does like
we're going to go on on location with somebody's bakery. It's always like it's the extremes of society. It's like let's go and interview the Westbrook Baptist Church. That sort of stuff.
It's the fringe polarizing and the polarizing like cults and groups of people and stuff. Yeah. With weird
weird views that Yeah. It's a It's interesting. I can definitely see a through line there. I I was thinking about Anthony Bourdain too as well. Like I I haven't seen much Bourdain stuff. So, I'm not really much of a Bourdain guy, but the little I have seen, he's obviously visiting places and experiencing uh food and talking about culture and history of the places that he goes to. Feel like that is uh and travel documentaries in general, which were
I feel like I grew up with Michael Palin. I feel like it was it took him longer than 80 days to go around that world. f****** hell. Feel like it went on forever. Yeah. Like I don't raw travel documentaries gonzo journalism. because they're going, "This beach is great."
That's just my opinion,
I guess. So, yeah, cuz they are I'm trying to think of like travel documentaries and the only one I can think of right now is Travel Man with Richard II,
but yeah, maybe. I think you could probably trace it back to Gonzo journalism.
Yeah.
Even if it's not even if it's a bit of a an imitation of what it started off as being, I guess it is.
There's a connection. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
What do you think about the um the style
visually
filming. Yeah. Well, some of the techniques used some of the effects as well.
Effects.
Effects.
What which effects are we talking about?

(09:28):
Well, initially when I said that, I was mostly thinking about the CG effects of like distorting faces and when you're sort of seeing things from their point of view
and the world around them is distorting and
Yeah. Well, I do I like what there's a couple of things I want to uh mention if we're talking about effects. The first one is the, as you say, the distortion, the visual distortions. I have never done acid, but if I had, I imagine that that's very similar to what it would look like. Like if you look at a carpet and it starts to wave and move a little bit, from what I've heard, that's very similar to what you might experience.
I want no part of that.
No.
Um, I I so I enjoyed the distortions certainly. I from what I understand, it's quite realistic. The reptile stuff, the
I love the reptile scene.
Yeah. In In that scene where he's sitting at the bar.
Mhm.
I think they just checked into the hotel and Del Toro disappears after telling him to eat the nuts. Disappears and RJ just starts freaking out. I think they done a lot of acid at that point or ether or everything that you can think of. I love the briefcase full of full of drugs.
Everything. I know. We we've sort of gone drug to drug to drug this season and now we're ending on a veritable buffet of just about everything. veritable buffet.
An old school Hollywood buffet, you could say.
If you've seen the studio, you know what we're talking about. Yeah. Don't let Zoe Kravitz anywhere near it. Uh yeah, the reptile stuff. So, uh creature design. I I'd honestly forgotten that there was some creature design in this, which is always a nice thing to for us to talk about, isn't it?
By none other than Rob Bin.
Rob Bin himself. Yeah. Made the the um the lizard creatures who's who we've spoken about before a few times. I think
he's great.
Oh, absolutely. He's one of the one of the greats.
He is, but I think amongst like I don't know how to phrase this without it sounding disparaging. The wider general population would not know who the f*** Rob Boutine was. Like,
oh, of course not. Why would they? People have got lives like us.
This is my life, Dan. How dare you?
It's just us and a listener. Yeah, I don't know. I think there are others that people would say before Rob Boutine, which is a crying shame because he is one of the greats.

(09:49):
Yeah, 100% 100%. And I really liked the reptile uh design in this.
So good.
I heard that they consulted with David Ike for that scene.
They were like, "Just just sketch out what you think the queen looks like
and we'll go with that."
Yeah. But I I really like that scene as it's one of the most memorable, I think, thinking about it now. I feel like it's maybe a point in the movie where it's most obvious what the point of view is. I I don't think it's a subtle movie.
No, not
but I think in that scene what's going on there is it's these people I guess like reverse regressing to an animalist like an animal state.
Yeah. A primal
primal state. Yeah. Where it's just
uh excess consumption um
and just sex violence like mindless hedonism. And it's I feel like It's a point in the movie where you just see what this movie is is about basically.
I I I love that scene and I hate it in equal measure because it's it sort of descends into like a reptilian version of Brian's society which is a horrifying thought if you've seen that movie. But yeah, you're right. It absolutely does sort of lay it all out there, doesn't it?
I think so. And it's very funny as well. And that's the thing that I I really love about this film
and just visually interesting.
Very very interesting. Yeah, it's very it's very funny and it's about something.
Yeah.
And it's um it's a satire. There's a lot of things in there that are my favorite things. Uh which is I think one of the reasons why I love this movie so much
effects effects wise. What other effects do we have in this? I I like the stuff they did with the shadows actually. There's some quite interesting shadow stuff. I was going to say shadow work, but I think that's something else.
Um they used the shadows from the TV screen to to to beam the helicopter. Uh the metal snake And they did some work with shadows with like I going back to the distortions on the carpet as well, I think. And they had the flowers kind of climbing up I think a body via shadows like very interesting mix of I guess practical and perhaps a computerenerated stuff back then. So that was that was very interesting.
Do you think any of the effects have dated this film at all?

(10:10):
I don't actually. And and I I feel like while they're not all perfect, it's a surreal when you're dealing with a a movie that's so surreal by its very nature, I think you can get away with that stuff.
Yeah.
And I don't think it makes too much of a difference. If you're trying to be like have show a realistic take on something,
a real world thing, then I think it does age a project. But in this case, a bit like, you know, when we spoke about in recqueen, for example.
You can't say Reququum anymore, can you?
I can't. My brain's just like, it's called Recqueen, Dan. Don't you know
Recqu I'm going to try and train myself to get out of it because otherwise people think I'm an idiot and I don't think that at the moment.
No, nobody has that opinion.
It's a bit like when we spoke about in Reququum for a dream where the budget was very limited on that and it looks a bit cheap in places and like absolutely brilliant film.
Yeah.
But it looks a bit cheap and possibly dated just like the way it was filmed and stuff, but it works because that's about a very uh difficult subject matter. I think similarly it works here because it's so surreal and you can get away with things, visual techniques that maybe have don't age very well. If you're talking about CGI, you can tell that it's CGI. Doesn't really matter so much cuz you know that it all of the stuff you're seeing is a projection of Ral Juke who is out of his mind on LSD. So like it doesn't really matter what it looks like. It's more what it's going for.
So apparently the budget was $18.5 million
which is considering the caliber of the people involved. Benio Del Toro and Johnny Depp were both kind of names already
by that point.
Yeah.
Just the volume of cameos, the the sets, the fact that it's a period piece. It's kind of incredible what they did with that 18.5 million.
Hadn't thought about that. Even when you just say period, like that adds so much on. You got you got to get period accurate clothes, cars, all set dressing.
Mhm. And some of the set dressing was fantastic, I have to say.
Yeah.
Really memorable. Um the two that spring to mind is right near the the beginning when they're having breakfast, I think, at the hotel.
Just that sort of I don't know. It kind of makes me think of like Florida, like Miami, kind of the pink and the green and the palms and just very distinct looking Yeah.

(10:31):
of a specific place and era
and I love it. I thought that was fantastic. And also the circus bar, the rotating like my absolute living nightmare.
I would have vomited immediately on that thing. But that was actually a replica. of an existing bar in a casino.
Really? Yeah.
It's what a good idea to put a carousel in a bar
and then surround it by circus acts and weird s***.
Yeah. Maybe one of my top three funniest scenes is seeing watching Beneio Del Toro trying to get off that merrygoround.
And it goes on for way longer than I remembered as well, but it just keeps getting funnier.
It's basically slapstick.
It is. I think it basically is slapstick. A lot of it. Yeah.
But somehow manages to be elevated slapstick. if that even makes sense.
Absolutely. Cuz like I said, it's about something. Um just going back to that restaurant scene at the start of the movie. That's I think actually one of the few scenes that weren't shot at a Dutch angle.
Yeah. It was I made a note about Dutch angles very early on when we were watching this.
And as soon as I sort of acknowledged that, oh my god, there are a lot of Dutch angles, I was like, are there any that aren't?
Yeah,
I think there are more Dutch angles than there are regular shots in this film.
100%. There are and obviously that's a point of view choice because like I say at the start they're doing less of them when I'm sure that these characters are doing something.
Yeah. At all times
but they're not at the stage where they've had Ether LSD uh pot coke when they've done all of that stuff where they're just on another planet entirely. That's when all of the Dutch angle stuff start coming in and that's you've got that really interesting perspective. A lot of wide angles being used as well. So it looks weird when your characters are close to the camera. and almost looking at you as well like a the actors not Benio Del Toro so much but definitely Johnny Depp and particularly at the start of the movie he's definitely looking at you.
Yeah.
Going you know this is this is crazy isn't it and you can see the point of view of it as well. The s is so bizarre and weird and I think that that quote at the start of the film as well is really useful. I think

(10:52):
remind me
it's um I can't remember the exact quote or who wrote it but There were words in it.
There were words in it. Yeah, there were words in it. Something something. Paraphrase here. Uh, if the world goes to s***, one of the easiest ways to deal with it is also if you become a piece of s*** or
like if the world's on fire, set yourself on fire. Like I something like that, you know?
So that's obviously what this film is about that uh
the kind of the decline of America. It's a very American film.
Mhm.
We started with a Danny Boy very British filmmaker finish with a very American film. I think
especially the settings like just setting it in Las Vegas and those long stretches of desert highway and stuff that's it's so American.
It's so America that you have
and make it a monument to excess and capitalism.
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Which is why, you know, I think this film's perfect in many ways because it's it's that era of the 70s where
a lot of the optimism of the 60s and the hippie movement has really gone started to go away.
Yeah.
And things get more cynical and capitalism becomes even stronger and you know can argue about where that is now. But definitely then that's when things I think started to become a lot more corporatized and people with agendas were were trying to control narrative and polit ical movements more and more, I think. So, there was a lot more disappointment, I think, in culture there. And I think a response to that was, well, let's just just go mad. Let's let's drive to Vegas and go on a three-day bender and just go absolutely mad and lose our minds in the place that, as we said, should not exist. And it's just a a mecca for
Tom Jones.
Tom Jones.
Yeah.
And Penantella.
And Penantella. Yeah. Penil. Yeah. Who's Who's in this movie? who is in this movie. Yeah. He's another cameo that we forgot about
along with um Chris Maloney.

(11:13):
Chris Maloney. Right.
Doing a borderline offensive gay voice.
Right. Yeah.
Although I did love his character.
Yes.
And how he was able to get one over on the police.
Yes.
I do appreciate that.
Yeah.
That might have been one of my favorite cameos actually.
It was a It was a fun one, wasn't it?
I think it's quite important that he was a gay character because of the history there and like I'm not going to start talking about Stonewall and all of that stuff, but the tensions between the gay communities and the police over the over the decades and how the police in many places still aren't welcome at Pride and that sort of thing. So, I I thought that little um exchange was uh was excellent and quite satisfying.
It was it was really satisfying to see the um I I can never remember that actor's name, but he's one of those guys.
Yeah,
I feel like he's in all the Pet Detective movies or something
and he's always got that weird jaw head haircut.
Yeah, it was It's very uh entertaining to see that character absolutely lose his mind with anger with rage.
Yeah. Very very satisfying. And I love that they have that exchange which goes on for a while and then Ral Juke just kind of walks in and goes, "Oh yeah, he goes, "Yes, how can I help you, sir?" He couldn't be more helpful.
Again, that's that's why it's important that that character was gay because it's like we're both part of some sort of counterculture here. We're both subversive
in our lifestyles.
Yeah.

(11:34):
Yeah. You can have your room.
Yeah. Yeah, you can have your room. And we're actually going to stick one up to stick two fingers up to the establishment here because we've got an opportunity to do so.
And you know what? Like all that that optimism we had in the 60s about becoming more progressive as a culture and feeling like we're making
progress uh and moving in the right direction and then it goes completely backwards in the 70s. Not unlike kind of stuff we're experiencing at the moment. I fear
we've come no further. I know. I know. Everybody's like, "But we have made some progress." Have we? Have we?
Yeah. I mean, I'm an optimist, so I would say that we have, but we have regressed again. Like, there's no denying that.
People are trying to drag us backwards.
Yeah. And I think it's important that that we have people like Hunter S. Thompson that are provoking and
questioning the status quo.
Yeah. Exactly. And maybe you might watch this movie and and think, you know, is it glorifying drugs? Maybe. Maybe, maybe it is. But maybe that's not the worst thing in the world.
Is it though?
Oh, this is it.
It doesn't seem like they're having the greatest time.
All I can tell you, Sarah, as someone that's never done drugs, is that I never wanted to watch this every time I didn't do drugs, hard drugs. It was never a staple for my friends and I to acquire
to not do drugs and then watch this
and then not watch this. Yeah.
Right.
Uh I think it it Okay, let me rephrase. I think if you're a teenage boy and you're an idiot, yeah, it does glorify drugs, I think.
Well, if you're a teenage boy and an idiot, then you can read anything into anything. Surely.
True. Yeah.
Yeah.

(11:55):
But, uh, but so you don't think that it does glorify drugs, I guess, because
I didn't think so. No, they're not productive and they seem like they're having the greatest time even without being productive.
What's the point?
Yeah. Well, to be somewhere else, I guess that that is the point to not have to deal with this. weird reality that they've been uh presented with.
I guess this is this sort of speaks to one of the reasons that I chose this season
and that is that I don't understand the notion to do a lot of drugs.
As I've said on a previous um podcast, I am a medical cannabis user. It's barely a drug at this point. It's barely a drug at this point. It's legal in so many countries now,
but the harder stuff not for me.
Yeah.
So, I do find it fascinating in the same way that I consume true crime. A lot of it's just about the psychology of it.
I find it really interesting cuz it's alien to me. But yeah, I don't know. I don't think it glorifies it.
Not at all. It makes them make bad decisions, do bad things. Like, no.
Yeah, that's a fair comment that they don't make the best decisions in this movie.
Do they make any good decisions?
Um I No, probably no good decisions whatsoever. Right. It was a good decision to take that be on that dune buggy in the desert and try and cover it so Sam didn't go in it. But
well, it wasn't a good idea cuz it didn't work. It
was unsuccessful. No,
it was a good idea to record everything.
Yeah,
even though he struggled to make sense of it.
Yeah,

(12:16):
it was a good idea to put in um a flight of the Valkyrie in that in that uh racing sequence that he was meant to be covering for his for his piece.
True.
And uh a point in the movie, another probably scene in the movie where you go, "Okay, it's obvious what this this is doing. referencing you. I guess you're referencing Apocalypse Now, but also that is playing where the people in a military truck pull up with guns and they're firing guns and RJ's response is something like, "Oh, they're morons or something like not very subtle, is it there?"
But I like that. I like that.
Um, yeah. Speaking of the music, I didn't love the soundtrack. I'll be honest. Altogether, too much Tom Jones for my liking.
Well, you're in Vegas. You It's not unusual to hear a Tom Jones track in Vegas.
I hate that you did that. It's Tom Jones or it's Wayne Newton, isn't it?
Well, I would rather have Wayne Newton at this point.
No,
but the I don't know. The soundtrack was just The only way I can describe the songs in this is that they've all definitely been used in adverts by that one I think it's Jefferson Airplane song.
That's a banger.
Yeah.
Which does loop me back around to Alice in Wonderland
and how I think those parallels are definitely intentional. Definitely intentional. How much do you know about Alice? Wonderland. Have you ever read the books, seen any of the adaptations?
I think I've seen the um the Tim Burton version.
Oh, no. The worst one.
I think that's probably the only one I've seen. Yeah. I mean, aware of it, obviously. It was all over the place when we were kids. It was all of age back then. Kids loved it.
We're going to have to rectify that. It's my favorite Disney movie.
Is it a Disney movie?
There's a Disney Alice in Wonderland. Yeah.
Do you know what? Maybe I I must have seen it when I was a kid.

(12:37):
I must have.
I own it. It's on the shelf.
Okay. one of the only Disney movies I actually own.
But sort of vaguely familiar with that uh could could be described as an acid trip.
Oh, if you will. I guess is that the kind of the comparisons that you're coming from?
Well, yeah. I mean, so it's a it's a journey. She falls down the rabbit hole. They go on a drug binge. It's not identical, but they both sort of take this journey and meet odd people along the way. End up in in weird distorted uh iterations of reality like nothing's quite right. I think there are a lot of parallels.
Yeah.
And especially because Lewis Carol was known to use Lordum which was like a Victorian era opiate basically. I think it had opium in it.
Well, that does explain a lot.
Yeah. But it was effectively legal and the Victorians used it for all manner of a ailments because they didn't know it was addictive.
And my leg's fallen off.
Have a lord them about it. See if that helps. Yeah,
it's Lord and I am.
So, he was definitely off his tits when he wrote Alice in Wonderland if it's not already obvious from the events of the book itself. But yeah, I I don't know. I did try to dig into that a little bit more because I do think there are so many parallels and there's an obvious influence there. And also, I don't know, Terry Gilliam strikes me as the sort of bloke who would love Alice in Wonderland.
Yeah, I would I would say um I would say that that they definitely watched Alice in Wonderland as preparation for this and and read Did you say that's based on book by Lewis Carol? Is that his name? Yeah.
One of my favorite books.
Okay. I'm sure that that was a big influence on this for sure. I mean, it's undeniable really in a in a way that there just the whole journey nature of it falling down this rabbit hole. You don't know where you're going to end up. Um and hey, that's part of the fun. That's that's part of the appeal.
Just have a nibble on this biscuit and it'll make you feel like you're 10t tall.
Yeah.
Loads of stuff like that. There's a weird cat. pillar smoking a hooker pipe on top of a mushroom.
This is normal.

(12:58):
Is that's what's in that book. That's what happens in that book. Maybe I should read just
You might like it.
Probably would like it.
It's very odd.
Yeah.
For a kids like a kids book.
Yeah.
Strange. Yeah. I went to see a theater production of it and you know me in theater, we don't we tend not to go get on, but when I was a kid there was um a production called Alice in the Park and it was in a park in Manchester and you sort of followed the actors and you walked through the woods and there was stuff like on the trees to make it look like you were falling down the rabbit hole and then you come out in a clearing and there's a huge toad stool with a mush with a caterpillar on it and oh it was so good.
That does sound cool.
Like it's giving me chills. It was one of the most magical experiences when I was a kid.
That's really cool. Especially back then like now we have things like Secret Cinema and you can pay £450 to go to one of these things. and it's great. Um, we're going to a labyrinth one.
Mhm.
So, that'll be cool. But I didn't realize that they were doing that sort of thing, like an interactive experience even back then. That's very interesting. I would have been all about that.
I was devastated though because um there was a part I think I must have been about eight and there was a part where the there's the scene where they're playing croquet with flamingos. Flamingos are the croquet mallets. And one of the actors obviously was trying to like animate the flamingo and make it look real. And I had an ice cream cone and he came over and went and the flamingo decked my ice cream cone.
Oh, did you cry?
Probably.
Yeah. You could imagine,
you know, me and ice cream.
You'd cry now if that happened. Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
Oh, no.

(13:19):
But memorable.
Would you do a Fear and Loa in Las Vegas experience?
No.
Movie cinema. Secret cinema experience.
Drugs are not compulsory, are they? You can't You can't do that. an illegal thing, compulsory note.
Exactly.
Um, well, maybe then.
Yeah, I'm in a heartbeat.
You've already got the outfit.
Yeah.
And actually, funnily enough, uh, Benio Del Toro put on £40 for this role.
And I've done that in the last two years for free without even trying. So, like, who deserves the Oscar is all I'm saying.
So, I'll be Ral Juke, you be Dr. Gonzo then.
Yeah. All right.
That does m mean that you've got to threaten people with a knife.
I can do that.
Uh,
I'd rather do without them being the one being threatened.
Yeah, true, true.
I don't like grapefruit. So,
no. Yeah. Again, a scene which will come naturally to you.

(13:40):
Yeah.
You love having a bath of fully clothed.
I do that often. Yeah,
I do. Yeah.
There was a point at which we were watching this and I just thought I feel like I don't know. I he he just let go during this movie and I feel like it would have been either the best or the worst experience. like he probably had the most fun ever or the least fun ever and I can't I can't decide which one.
I'm not sure. I I know that he del Toro became particularly close with Hunter F S. Thompson after the movie and they stayed friends until Thompson died in 2005.
A
so but I think I get the impression that he did enjoy making this. I mean it looks like an absolute ball to me.
It looks great. The one thing that I was sort of um dreading touching on and seeing in this movie was the scene with Christina Richi. Like it's been a few years since I'd seen this movie and I was wondering if that scene held up. I was wondering if I fully understood what was going on even with that scene when when when I last saw it. I remember it just making me feel quite uncomfortable when I watched that scene, but not so much this time. Like I watched it and there's a very clear point of view here. So I feel like it's it's less of a problem in terms of Dr. Gonzo is is is not a good guy. Like he's He's lost his he's lost his mind essentially
and he's making these really bad decisions. What did you think of that scene? Do you remember that scene coming and do you feel uncomfortable? Cuz I feel like some of that scene is sort of funny as well and I'm sort of feel uncomfortable admitting that cuz he's in a robe and he starts hitting Christina Richi or slightly like lightly with the like a handkerchief or something and that's quite amusing to me. But the the undertones the subtext of that is that he is has drugged a minor and taken her back to his hotel room and use your imagination for what else may or may not have occurred.
Yeah. And he's talking about selling her for the like basically trafficking her to other people.
But but that's that's Ral Juke's response, isn't it? I feel like that's that's what he says to um Dr. Gonzo as a way to make him realize how weird the thing that he's doing is.
No, I know. I'm just sort of saying like the it does make me uncomfortable. Yes. Because
God, she looks so young.
Yeah.
She looks like she did in Casper.
Yeah, you're right. I've forgotten about Casper, which was 2 years before this.
Yeah, it can't have been much before. But yeah, she looks really young. So, it did make me a bit uncomfortable.
Yeah,
I think I think it made me more uncomfortable that it was played for laughs to be honest.
Yes.

(14:01):
But like you say, they are sort of they're not co-signing his behavior. They're just portraying it.
I think they're portraying it. And I I think that the I said earlier in the episode about him being the lawyer character. He's the one that should be leading not necessarily by by example but yeah I suppose you should really if you're practicing law you should probably follow the law
yeah
so I think it's a very clear point of view where they're saying even the people that are meant to be guiding you in the correct way are more are idiots are morons are leading you down the wrong path and it's up to you as real juke to question the things have fun enjoy yourself. Don't take things too seriously. Understand what's going on in the world, but still recognize right from wrong if you can. That would be nice, wouldn't it?
Yeah.
I don't So, it's it is does make me feel uncomfortable that I'm laughing in that scene. But also part of the reason why it's memorable, I think, because it does make me feel uncomfortable and I'm thinking about it more. Oh, why am I finding this funny? That's interesting.
What's going on here? I'm going to think about this scene a bit more. So, I think it I think it works. I I was dreading it to be honest.
I I didn't know it was coming. I forgotten cuz it had been such a long time.
So, I didn't have that baggage. But, um, yeah, interesting.
Like, go to Vegas, live out your dreams.
Yeah.
Not that dream.
No, not that one.
Uh, on that light note, um, I think this this film is a fascinating film because it's a very very funny for me anyway. Very funny film, satire about something very serious and it presents it in a way that I can I find it very easy to watch this movie and absorb it. I feel other people probably have complete opposite experience. I feel like a lot of people get to see this movie and go, "What the f*** was that about?"
So, I had a similar moment like that because it did end and I turned to you and went, "What was the plot, Danny? What happened?"
Well, there's not really a plot, is there? That's the thing. No,
which I'm only I'm only half serious. That's not That's not a criticism from me because some of my favorite movies are hangout movies where literally nothing happens.
Yeah, we watched Empire Records.
Yeah. Clerks, let's just spend a day in a shop with these guys. Yeah, life of grime.
But I'm glad I chose it for this season. I'm glad you bought it on Blu-ray. And I'm glad we watched it together because I think probably the last time I watched it was maybe I probably would have been 19 or so maybe.
And I it was straight out of my head.

(14:22):
It was just two hedonistic guys doing all the drugs. And I don't really think I thought about it on any sort of deeper level than that.
So I'm really glad that we were able to kind of dissect picked it and look at more of the nuance and some of the meaning.
It's one of my favorite types of film because it's very entertaining to me. I
I've forgotten how funny it was actually.
Yeah, it's it's a comedy. It's a comedy. It's a straight out comedy and Leonardo DiCaprio watched this movie before he did quality by the way. Um but yeah, I think it's I think it was a really good one to end on. I think there's loads to talk about to unpack in that. I think we if we wanted to we could have made this a two-hour episode, but we don't want to be boring our listeners to death with our
We don't We don't need to spend half an hour pontificating on whether Johnny Depp really did give Gary Booy a little kiss.
We don't need to do that.
He did. He clearly did though, didn't he?
Busucy improvd that line.
Yeah. Flea fleas is another
I love that line as well. That line afterwards where Oh, can I remember how it goes? Oh, it must be comforting to know that wherever that man goes in life, he'll know that men are doing things in bathrooms behind doors, things that he'll never know some or understand or something like I can't I'm paraphrasing but it was a very funny line to me that always stuck with me.
There are a lot of very funny moments in this movie. A lot of funny dialogue.
There's a lot of funny dialogue and I think Thompson at his best obviously just had a real cutting uh funny way of phrasing things. Yeah.
And just his point of view was
I really enjoy the phrase towering Jesus rage.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good one to end on. I'm glad that you ended on this one. It's all of the drugs.
Mhm.
And there's loads to dig into there. And we've managed to find some links with other episodes we've done with Almost Famous, which was a link that I wasn't expecting, actually.
Second film this season where people eat shrimp in Las Vegas.
Yeah, exactly. We haven't even spoken about that, have we? Go being the first one, obviously. Yeah, it's uh it's funny how we had two movies set in Vegas in this season.
Yeah. I mean, it's obvious season about it really like where is where are you going to end up is Vegas which I guess proves the point of Hunter S. Thompson even more.

(14:43):
Sin City, baby.
Yeah. Yeah, that's what they call it, isn't it?
Is the movie Sin City actually set in Sin City?
I don't know. It's been a long time since I've seen that.
Uh yeah. So, congrat Thank you for putting Fear and Loathing on. I'm really glad that you chose this one. Decided to end on this one.
Me, too. Me, too. Yeah. I think um I'll be honest, when I scheduled this one in, it was definitely more for your benefit than mine,
but I'm really glad that I've had a refresher on it now because I think I'll be way more inclined to return to it.
Oh, good. I I It's one of those that probably anytime you want to put it on, I'm game. Let's Let's put it on.
Uh yeah, I've seen it a bunch of times at this point, but not for a while. I think it's it's maybe been I want to say maybe 10 years since I last saw it.
Well, you were deliberating getting the Blu-ray for a long time.
Yeah. And also I was worried about it how it held up as well. So, there was that. But I'm glad to say that it holds up brilliantly and it's me that's changed and the film's just gotten better, I think, for me.
Excellent. Excellent.
Very happy. Very happy. Uh, but that's that's it for the season of drugs movies, Sarah, isn't it?
We have cometh to an end.
We made it
on our 8week journey of various substances covered in the visual media we know as film. This is like when you have to reach a a word limit on an essay.
Yeah. Yeah. I know what you mean. Um,
so you're choosing the theme for the next season. Back to you.
Back to me. We're taking it in turns again now. So I um we're going to go on a bit of a break. We got the end of season rap show coming out on the Patreon feed next week. Uh so keep an eye out for that if you're a Patreon. A Patreon. If you're a Patreon or if you're a Patreon. Is that a question? Yeah,
I don't know.
Okay, thanks for your feedback. So, we'll be back in a few weeks on um September the 8th with my season. I've decided to go for video game movies.

(15:04):
I know. I know.
Um
it was it's a theme that was suggested by a friend of the show and Patreon/patron Paul. Um a while ages ago he suggested doing this theme. Kept it in my back pocket. I did would want to get to this at some point.
I was a little bit worried because there might be a lot of crossover with our flop season in that it's very hard to find a good one good video game movie.
Yeah.
But then I thought, f*** it. It doesn't they don't need to be good, do they?
Um, so eight movies of video game, I guess, adaptations or video game movies. The the full schedule will be announced on Patreon shortly.
Um, but the first movie, yeah, the first one we're doing is uh Resident Evil 2002. The Paul WS Anderson and Mila Jovovich movie which spawned five sequels or six sequels.
A lot of them. Yeah.
And they're still they're still making them. They're still making Resident Evil movies.
Well, better that than Monster Hunter sequels,
surely.
No, I know. Um but yeah, so we're back on September the 8th. September the 8th bought eight movies of video game films. Um and first one being Resident Evil. So we'll be back then.