Nightbreed - S10 E77 - Shoot The Hostage

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hello and welcome to Shoot a Hostage with me, Dan, and my partner, Sarah. We're a movie podcast who talks about a different film each week based on a theme. We do swear and we do spoil the featured movie, so only ever listen if you've seen the film or you don't care too much about spoilers. If you're a regular listener, you can just skip forward until you hear the intro music cuz you've heard all of this before. But if you are new to the show and you do enjoy what you hear, there are a couple of things you can do to help support the show. Firstly, make sure that you're subscribed on podcast player so you get notified when new shows drop on Mondays. Uh you could rate us five stars on Spotify, which couldn't be easier. You just hit the star icon below the show's artwork. Or if you have a spare few minutes, we'd love it if you could submit a review wherever you listen. Uh make sure you come follow us at ST_Pod on social media. We are active on Instagram, threads, and Tik Tok. And lastly, the biggest thing you can do to help is tell a friend about the show. So that's about it. That's enough preamble from me. Uh over to me and Sarah for this week's episode. Fresh off the back of Battlefield Earth. The greatest movie ever made.

(00:01):
I don't know if Fred Fresh is the term I want to go with.
Well, that's what we did last time.
Yeah. Tired off the back of Battlefield, not fresh.
I was actually exhausted after we recorded that episode.
I was exhausted after watching the film. Never mind recording.
I watched it twice.
That's on you. You chose it.
That's done now. We're moving on from Battlefield Earth.
We have to own our choices as grown-ups. Dan.
Yeah. Choices are back to you this week. Yeah.
Your your episode five is your choice. You're all the odds. I'm all the evens. Yep.
This season.
Um What what did you choose? As if you don't know it already.
I've gone with Nightbreed.
Nightbread. A movie that you've you've seen before.
I may have seen this before. I've seen it.
I've seen it twice in this week. I've seen it once today.
Yeah.
But I've seen it many times throughout my life.
Night Bridge 1990.
I've seen three different versions of it as well.

(00:22):
Yeah. We'll get into that.
Um I want to hear all about this because this is a movie that well it was your choice why why did you choose it
so it it's something that sort of comes to mind when I think of flops and I f****** love this movie man I'm not going to make any bones about it I think it's great
all time top 10
I think it probably would be in my alltime top 10 yeah which look fire shots I don't care ridicule me it's not the best film in the world it might not even be good by many people's metrics
doesn't matter.
But I love it.
Yeah.
And I am here to justify that.
Believe you me.
And I have many, many, many notes.
And we will get into your notes, too. Don't feel bad about that. Lord knows there's one particular film coming up in this season which is dog s*** that I love. This is better than that film that I love. So, and there's no question about that. So, don't feel the need to defend it.
So, straight out of the gate, actually, I think this film has a lot more defenders than I'd realized.
Yeah. It seems to have quite a cult following, doesn't it? People that like it like love it.
Yeah. I think the much like The Thing like the cult following aspect kind of came quite quickly
cuz I know Clive Barker had some issues with Morgan Creek. I'm getting ahead of myself, but um but they gave it a really limited theatrical release and then yanked it from cinemas after horribly mismarketing it.
Yeah.
So that's one of the reasons it tanked. Um, but I don't know. I think it's pretty good. I think people embraced it when it was released on VHS and you know, it's it's had a little I don't even want to say community, but like little legion of fans.
Yeah.
And I think it's pretty deserving. But then I am a huge advocate of Clive Barker and his work.
Yeah. I um we'll get into sort of my thoughts and feelings on it later.

(00:43):
Um but Generally speaking, I quite like it.
Okay.
I think it's I think it's all right. I think it's
not perfect. It has its issues, which we'll get into.
But for the most part, I'm like, "Yeah, I haven't seen nothing quite like this before." And that's always a that's always a good thing. That's always worth a star or two in my book if it's different and it's trying to do something.
There's so much here that's admirable.
Yeah, 100%.
Like even just speaking purely objectively, M
yeah.
So, I can't wait to get dug into that. But when on my um on my travels through the internet doing research for this, it wasn't as big of a flop as I realized.
I looked up the numbers and I was surprised.
Yeah. So, I wonder if my numbers match your numbers.
Go on. What numbers you've got?
So, the budget I found was 11 million.
I've got 10.
Okay. So, there's a there's a cheeky mill that's unaccounted for.
Let's call it 10 and a half.
All right. 10 and a half.
10 and a half. 10 and a half.
Yeah.
Um and it made I think 16 million internationally.

(01:04):
Snap.
Right. Okay. So that seems legit then.
It it it probably didn't make enough money to warrant its budget. No,
but but but home release it probably did.
Well, what's the um what are the numbers? Like is it does a film have to make is it three times its budget to be considered like a success?
I think it's roughly double, but that I think that's like a very general Like it depends what they spent on marketing and all of that stuff and what
u what money came out of what budget. Like it I think I've said this before, but there's so many ways to carve that up that
all you've got to go on is what did what was it made for and what did it make?
You really can't look into it much more than that. But as a general rule, I believe it's double.
Yeah.
Um so it probably didn't quite make its money back. But you know, having said that, it came out during the VHS era. Uh, it's had multiple releases over the years. I'm sure that it's made its money back.
Had some very interesting VHS cover art as well, which leads me on to my next question. When did you first come across Night Breed?
I That's a very interesting way of phrasing. Uh, Clyde Barker would be proud.
Wouldn't he just
I um I remember seeing this in the video shop when I was just a young padawan and
a we lad. ad in um my local video shop which was called Super Video.
Imaginative.
Yeah. And I remember seeing the cover cuz it has the dude on it who's in this movie for about a second and a half.
Yeah.
The big guy who's got like a head on his stomach or something.
And I saw that cover

(01:25):
like if you'd asked a ask a child to do a crang from memory.
Yeah. Yeah. And um but that's that's what I remember. I remember seeing that cover at the shop going, "Oh, the guy that what did Hellraiser? I like Hellraiser." And I don't think I ever got to rent it. I don't know why.
M
um I'm pretty sure a couple of years later it was on Sky Movies and I recorded it. I'm not sure that I ever watched it the whole way through though. I think I'm
I think I got a bit bored of it from memory and I switched it off before the good s*** happened.
Right.
Perhaps cuz I don't
I don't It feels like a movie that's super familiar to me and for some reason I get this kind of mixed up and potentially because of the time period, but the Wes Craraven movie, The People Under the Stairs, they're two movies like not in terms of theme and stuff, but I think just when they were released and
were they both 1990 or was people under the stairs like ' 91
thereabouts? Yeah, maybe it was 91. But I I think just in terms of a movie with a a horror director attached that I really liked Clyde Barker for Hillrazer, where's Wes Craraven for for Nightmare on Elm Street, which was a childhood favorite of mine. And I think I was similarly I don't want to say disappointed, but they didn't do the thing that the other movies did for me. Like the Hell Hellraiser, just the the look of it, the pin head. I was obsessed with that when I was a kid. And the same with A Nightmare on Elm Street. And these and Nightbre didn't quite get there for me. But I don't think I ever saw it the whole way through. So it's not like a fair criticism and you know I switch something off after 3 and a half minutes if I'm not into it. So
yeah, now as a grown-up Yeah.
let alone as a child.
Exactly. I maybe I even just like fell asleep watching it or something. I don't know. And I never went back to it. But I think I think it was on like a Sky recorded off television situation which is completely legal. And um yeah, I don't know if I ever went back to it. I've got a feeling that when you and I watched it together four years agoish.
It must be. Yeah.
Was that's more or less the first time that I saw it. Let's say that because I didn't remember a bunch of it, but some of it seemed familiar possibly because of the the artwork and just being immersed in sort of cinema culture and stuff. So, cuz it's Clive Barker, it was kind of always there bubbling away.
Interestingly, the first message you sent me on Tinder involves my night breed t-shirt.
Yeah, wear a night t-shirt.
So, technically this movie is responsible for our relationship. Yeah,
in many ways.
In many ways. Yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah. So, when did you first come across this?
I was a teenager. I was definitely not as young as you and I don't remember the cover being in the VHS shop.

(01:46):
Yeah.
Which is a crying shame because I think I would have remembered if I'd seen that.
But yeah, I I I think I watched it at a friend's house when I was maybe 15.
Was it a rental? Yeah, it must have been.
Yeah,
because I was not allowed very many horror films, so they tended tended to be watched around our friends houses
without knowledge of parents.
Yeah, of course.
Okay. I had no idea what I was up to. And no, they do now. They do now. Um, we've had drunken confessionals on holiday. It's fine.
That's what holidays are for.
Yeah. Yeah. But I just remember being captivated by it.
Okay.
Instantly. There's so much going on, which is kind of wild that I I don't know that you sort of said you you thought it bored you because I I feel like it gets straight into it and like Dr. Decka's slashing up families within like 10 minutes.
So, there's some gnarly stuff going on and it it doesn't really get to the I guess the meat and potatoes of it till maybe the halfway mark, but there's so much just I don't know, it's like a jug or the theatrical version we're talking about specifically.
Yeah.
Um I have seen the cabal cut at Frightfest
maybe like I want to say 13 years ago or so and I've seen the director's cut a few times most recently today.
So I would like to talk about some of the differences between the courts.
But for the purposes of this episode we will be referring to the theatrical court unless we say otherwise.
Okay. Yeah. That's the one I I've se I've never seen director's cut. I certainly haven't seen in the Cabal Cup.
The theatrical one is the one that I tend to return to the most cuz it's the one that I grew up watching.

(02:07):
Yeah.
Cuz as I said, watched it at 15, watched it a lot, and then I didn't see it again until I was in my 20ies. I think it was sort of that period of films were just harder to access
until I got to a point where I was old enough, had my own disposable income, and Play.com was the facilitator of um Region One. DVDs and stuff that was a little bit harder to to access.
Yeah.
So, I didn't see it for a long time, maybe a decade, and then rediscovered it again. Saw it saw the Cabal Cut at Frightfest, as I say, maybe I want to say 2012. It was rough as f***.
Well, did they wasn't it pieced together with found footage that was in someone's glove compartment or something?
So, the story that they said um Basically, it had been a project for a number of years. They'd wanted to to piece together a film that was as close to the novela.
Is the book Oh, based on book. Based on book. Yeah. The book is called Cabal.
Kabal. Yeah. Okay.
Um which obviously as we know towards the end of the movie is what Aaron Boon's name becomes. He is Kabal.
Boon.
Boon.
Yeah.
Um Oh no. Vocal stems on the air. Um the cut is the Yeah, it was it was edited to match the book more closely because I think it was fin I think the film was financed by Morgan Creek and I think it was distributed by 20th Century Fox.
Yeah.
And they butchered the f*** out of it. And I do feel bad for Clive Barker because I think Roarhead Rex came out in 1986.
Yeah.
Yes. You're laughing but it was literally about like a 9 foot dick monster.
I know. I haven't seen it but I know that about it.
It It's do you know what? It's not good.
Yeah.

(02:28):
But it's very enjoyable.
Okay.
Would recommend.
I'm sure we'll get to it one day.
But Clive Barker didn't like it. He thought his material had been misunderstood, misconstrued, and he didn't want that to happen again, which is why he took the directorial reigns for Hellraiser and again a few years later for Night Breed.
So Hellraiser was his first theatrical
directing credit made for million quid.
Mhm.
In North London.
Yeah.
That's crazy,
right? Spawned an insane mostly s*** franchise.
Yeah.
With like two notable except three notable except I think there's three good Hellraiser movies in the franchise and one that I enjoy.
Yeah.
The rest are rubbish.
And a reboot that we really enjoyed and everybody else hated.
That's what I'm talking about. I thought it was great.
Okay.
I really liked that.
Yeah. Me too. Me too. But um but yeah, he didn't want he didn't want people f****** up his work.

(02:49):
Yeah. And I I get that because he's such an artist, isn't he? He's a a writer, a painter. He has a very unique vision.
And you just you don't really want anyone else to to mess with that. You kind of want it to be as pure as possible.
And I feel that we get that with Hellraiser. And I feel that we get that.
You're the more the Clyde Barker person, but from the limited research I've done, certainly with how the things look in Night Bridge. is it it feels like a a Clyde Barker creation.
It does. It does. I do think the director's cut works much better than the theatrical, though.
I'm not surprised. I mean, so so Barker was unhappy with the theatrical cut.
Yeah. They chopped it to bits. They they restructured the film. They took out some of the more extreme gore. They took out a bunch of stuff that informed the characters,
which I think the theatrical version really suffers from. is although it's the one I always lean on, it's the one I always return to, that is largely born out of nostalgia, I do think the director's cut is a much better film. Like I think that's a genuinely solid film. Uh I think I think something that the theatrical cut suffers from is you don't get a real handle on who Lori and Boon are to each other than they're in a relationship.
That's it.
You see them at the start and they're doing a little bit of love thing. then immediately cuts to psychiatry office and then it's off to the races and it's kind of non-stop but not in a particularly good way
in a in a way that's like and I think I a couple of times I said to you maybe I I I sort of looked said something to you for about 3 seconds looked back at the screen like oh what's the h how have they got here
he was in Midian a minute ago and it's not that you have to necessarily see how people travel from place to place to place but in some areas I feel like We're in quite an important juncture in the movie
and I felt like there was something that needed to play out before we moved on to the next scene. So, I wonder if it sort of tidies up the the the not literally the travel, but the movement of the of the movie and how characters move throughout it
to a certain extent. Yes.
I'm guessing that it's still not perfect.
No, so few films are.
Yeah, but it's Is it um How long is the theatrical cut? Theatrical I want to say is about 100 minutes.
Uh, and how how much extra are we talking for the directors then?
Um, director director's cut I believe is ooh about 2 hours I think.
Is it okay?
And the cabal cut was closer to like 240.

(03:10):
Oh wow. Loads there.
Yeah. Yeah.
But but but
they they just shoehorned in everything that they found because sorry I got sidetracked. As I was saying the um the guys who were sort of intent on putting together the most complete version of the film poss ible thought that they wouldn't be able to do it because for a long time they were under the impression that the the prints the the originals had just been lost but they were found in an old office somewhere I think Clive Barker's old office
okay
and they because a lot of the reels had kind of degraded a little bit the cabal cut didn't look great
yeah
some of it was like pristine quality and then you go straight to really shoddy sort of played a 100 times VHS quality And it was really, really jarring. It was super cool to see, don't get me wrong, but it was pretty jarring. And for a long time, we were told that there would be a Cabal Cut released. And I think to date, the only company that's actually put out the Cabal Cut for home release is um I think it's Shout Facto's horror arm, which is Scream Factory, and they made a thousand.
And they go for silly money on eBay, which is why I don't own that one. But in hindsight, from from what I remember, it's been over a decade, but from what I remember, I think Clive Barker's director's cut is the definitive one to to me.
Okay. I'm sure it's his one as well. I'm sure it's the one that he favors, right?
Otherwise, the Cabal cut, I'm sure he would have pushed for that to be the the more readily available one.
They're different mediums, aren't they? Obviously, you have a book, you have a movie. They are different mediums. There is you probably use different techniques and and different scenarios. You you might want to explain something in the book, but there's not really a way to translate it in an interesting way visually.
So perhaps there's a reason that he that some of that stuff wasn't used initially. Does um do you know if Clive Barker owns the rights to Night Breed still? Cuz I know that he doesn't to Hellraiser.
He does now.
Oh, he does. He
Well, I think that's how the reboot got made.
Oh, okay.
Because I believe that he didn't own it for long time, which is why we got so many crappy sequels.
Yeah.
Hellraiser Hellworld. I'm looking at you. That might have been the last one I saw. Actually,
I checked out I think at five.

(03:31):
Yeah, Hell World was the one with Henry Cavl in it.
I didn't see that one,
would you believe?
Um, but yeah, I'm I'm pretty sure I heard that he managed to get the rights back,
right?
Which is how the the reboot ended up getting made because that was with his approval, I believe.
Okay. Okay, good. I um there was Definitely. I didn't see a bunch of those Hellraiser sequels, but I feel like the the remake was a definite return to quality, and I really liked it. It's interesting you say that it got shhat on a bit.
Yeah,
cuz I thought it was excellent. I really liked it.
I really dug it, but I've seen so few people getting the same thing we did out of it.
Yeah. It's disappointing cuz I would like to see that thread continue as well, but it probably won't.
I don't think it will now. No,
but I'm glad that he he owns the the rights to Hellraiser again and can control that. IP and I wonder I wonder if he owns the rights to to Nightbade then. I feel like maybe he sort of starting out of in his career directing Hellraiser probably maybe a bit naive dare I say lost the rights got them back eventually
maybe he's like I'm not going to make that mistake again cuz I think I saw I watched a couple of interviews with with Clyde Barker over the last week or so
he's fascinating isn't he
pretty much the only research that I've done and absolutely right he's absolutely fascinating. He's funny. He's so clever, like so articulate. The way he talks, he's open-minded. I watched a really interesting interview. I watched about 15 minutes of it, and then I fell asleep cuz it got too late last night. It was a debate. I guess it would have been around the time that Hellraiser came out, around 87, 88, I guess. And it was a Q&A with him. I don't know if you've seen this on YouTube, but it was him and like a bunch of
people dressed in ' 80s clothes cuz it was the '8s going, "Oh, why do you make bad like horror movies then?" Cuz it makes people do killings, doesn't it?
Oh god.
Yes. The stupidest question.
But the way he uh and just the fact that he he was up for doing it is admirable, but the way he answered it was just with respect, like I I appreciate your opinion, but this is why I think that you're incorrect.
And he he was just just the way he carried that was really I really liked it. And he's funny and clever and I just my new favorite person now. I think I I I was I loved his work in Hellraiser and just his visual mind, but I think I'm also now down for him as a person. It's going to be someone I I look to interviews for a lot. I think I watched one with Craig Ferguson, which was very funny as well.

(03:52):
Okay.
Uh when he was promoting a book about I can't remember what it was called, but he'd written a book where he had written it from the perspective of someone that is possessed.
Oh, okay.
I don't know what that was called, but No, I've not read that one.
Okay.
There's there's quite a lot of Barker's back catalog that I haven't read. Some I didn't get on with.
I don't love Weave World.
Um, but I do love his his books of blood.
I'm a real sucker for those.
Is that the the Candyman ones?
Uh, the Candy Well, oh god, what's it called?
Oh no, the the the Forsaken or something like that,
right?
Um, it is in one of them. Yes.
Yeah. Okay.
Four, I want to say. Cabal was actually first published in Book of Blood Six,
right?
The sixth and final one.
Okay.
Before being published on its own,
and I own three copies.

(04:13):
Why?
Why not? Well, one of them one of them was a gift and it's signed by Clive Bar.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
Nice.
I did have four copies. Um, but somebody borrowed one and never gave it back. Phillip, if you're listening,
it's fine. I can survive with three copies of
It's not like your You don't have any left. You're fine. You're fine.
What will I do?
Yeah.
Um, yeah. I guess I just I don't know what I what else we're going to cover of Cry Barkers in terms of movies. We'll definitely get to Hellraiser because it's is what easily one of my favorite horror movies of all time. Top five easily, I would say.
And I quite like Lord of Illusions.
Lord of Illusions is a kind of a banger, you know.
I It's I think that one gets shot on a bit, doesn't Yeah, but I I find it incredibly fun and again just different. Like it is mad
some of the stuff that happens in it and
I don't know. I I that's another one that I saw I think on Sky Movies in the mid '90s and maybe wasn't thrilled by it at the time, but over the years I've revisited a few times and I think I like it more and more the more I watch it.
Okay.
I think it's mad, but it's it's it's great.
I think he's just got the most remarkable imagination.
Yeah, totally.
And He's a f****** sicko.

(04:34):
Yeah.
Which appeals to me, but I think he's he's kind of the perfect example of this. The the the things that come out of his brain
I wonder where he was going with that.
Are so screwed up.
Yeah.
And so out there,
but as you said, he is the most sort of erodite
and an intelligent speaker. And
I don't know, he just seems like a really good dude from what I've heard. And also like he comes up with some f***** up s***. True. Like there's no denying that. But it's there's a purpose. There is subtext. There is metaphor. There is it it's not
uh it's not violence for violence sake. It's and maybe this is informed from by me a little bit because of the the interviews that I've watched
uh of him over the last few weeks, but
it seems to me like he's not really a fan of just violence for the sake of violence.
It's There is a reason for it and it's he's trying to tap into something more uh like there something in the human subconscious and trying to get to the root of something rather than just going ah let's cut someone's arm off. That's good, isn't it? Let's the clown did that.
Well, yeah. That's one of the reasons that he sort of stepped away from the genre for a while.
Oh, really?
Yeah. Yeah. In the ' 90s he he sort of moved away from writing horror because he I think just got a bit too entrenched in it and it didn't interest him as much anymore.
Okay.
But interestingly, so one of the reasons that he wrote Cabal at all, like I believe it was published in 1988, so he must have immediately started developing the the story as a script if if the film came out in 1990, that must have been a pretty much
instantaneous thing.
But he wrote it as a response to the the boom of like slashers in the 80s.
Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. Cuz the obviously the first kind of character or or or violence that we see in in Night Breed is Deca. And he's kind of a slasher character. He's got the mask on.

(04:55):
He's a literal slasher. Yeah.
Yeah. He's doing the kind of the thing that you expect in slash. Maybe that's what turned me off of it actually when I first saw it because I've never really been a huge fan of slasher movies aside from Terminator, which is a slasher movie. I don't care what you say.
But I'm on board with that theory.
Guns.
Um and it's got Arnold in it. But but Yeah, it's it starts out as a slasher movie. So, it's interesting that you say that it's it was kind of as a response to that uh that kind of culture that was,
I guess, at its height in in the to late ' 80s.
Absolutely.
Yeah. They were churning them out because they could be made for relatively small budgets, but could be relied on to to do pretty good numbers
and they didn't need stars to sell them.
So, they were just being churned out at that point.
It was slowing down in the late ' 80s, early '9s, and then obviously mid '90s, we had the reinvention of the slasher.
It was post slasher time, wasn't it?
Now it's post post slasher.
Don't even get me started.
But I think yeah, I think the the fact that he's he is against sort of mindless violence for the sake of it really sort of shows in this
and again backs up why he wanted to direct Nightbreed himself and why he felt so hard done by in the edit because the um one of the reasons that the uh 20th Century Fox just re- reminding myself um one of the reasons that they didn't market it correctly or stand by it was because they were super confused that the monsters were the good guys,
right?
They hated that.
Yeah,
that was too nuance, too unusual for them.
And it's also why we get that horrendous poster that I showed you, which is just the black, white, yellow with the eyes, and then it's something about Lor's boyfriend. Like, the tagline is just s***. So, they marketed it as a slasher, which my god does this film such a disservice,

(05:16):
so it's no wonder he was annoyed by it.
I don't like that poster. It feels
It's awful.
I mean, you're the jello person, but is that like a Gallowesque poster with the eyes?
Um,
no, I think is the answer.
I can see why you would say that.
Cuz it's got eyeballs.
I can see why you would say that. It's not even a very good slasher poster. It's terrible.
But it's it's not it's it's quite misleading, isn't it?
Oh, massively. And yeah,
you you'd be forgi like if you saw that and you went in to watch it on that basis and you were disappointed. I could I could I could understand mismarketed.
What Why do you think we started talking about how it opens with a kind of a a stop 80s slasher character in Dr. Deca who's played by
Daddy Croninberg.
Papa Croninberg.
Right. Okay. Before I move on with this point.
Okay.
We've covered a Brandon Croninberg movie. Yeah.
We've now covered a movie where David Croninberg is an actor.
Yeah.
Never covered a movie that he's directed though.

(05:37):
We will.
We will. But that isn't that crazy.
Yeah. It's also um before you get distracted again, before you can continue with that point,
uh did you know that this is our second Craig Sheffer movie that we've covered.
Was he in uh Fire in the Sky?
Oh, he was. That was a guess.
That was a good guess.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, great. Um, no. I did not know that.
I uh Why was Papa Croninberg cast in this movie?
Don't know.
Do you like it?
Do I like him in this film?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think he's great.
I'll be honest, I didn't
initially. Okay.
His performance really grew on me over the years
and I think he is superbly creepy.

(05:58):
That's what I like about it. He's so calm.
But that to me that is the most terrifying thing. Like if I'm down the pub and a grown man is screaming in my face, my instinct is to laugh
because they're ridiculous. If a grown if that same grown man is very calmly and very softly speaking through the same threats, terrifying.
Genuinely terrifying. If people are calm and softly spoken, instant instant terror.
Yeah, I I I really like his performance. I like how calm and calculated that character is. Don't fully understand why he's doing the things that he's doing. And maybe that is part of my criticism of the movie and in general of why people are doing the things that they're doing.
Okay.
But I like what he what he is doing. I like how it looks and feels and sounds and I'm just like a bit don't like this guy but that's what you're you're meant to feel I I guess.
Yeah. Yeah.
Um so it's interesting as well that he is playing the psychiatrist. What are we saying about institutions in this movie? Because we
Oh, I don't know. It's so subtle.
So often is lost on me. So you might need to hold my hand a bit here. But so you got the the slasher guy who is a psychiatrist.
You've got the police force who are just being d******** in the movie for some reason.
Yeah.
You've got um
a priest in this who I guess is representing the Christianity, the church or religion in general. I don't know. What are we saying about these things?
I think Clive Barker is saying um f*** your religion, AAB, and don't trust mind doctors.
Okay.
I don't know. I don't know. On the face of it, that is it does seem quite an anti- relligion, anti- authoritarian stance.
I is it?
But but I think there is a bit more nuance than that.
I think so. Like and again maybe derived from a little bit more of the digging that I've done into the man.

(06:19):
But I feel like it's more how humans use these institutions as a kind of a mask, as a cloak to do terrible things.
The the lynch mob at the end when they're going after the I'm sure we'll get to the climax of the movie, but
they're they're doing in the name of the Lord and you know because God and we are the righteous people and you are evil and you're Satan's spawn or whatever. Like
if you were to remake it, they'd all be wearing MAGA hats now.
Yeah. Yeah. But it's like it's the humans that are using those things as an excuse to enact the horrors that they want to, you know, we don't agree with this thing. Therefore, this thing should not be allowed to survive and live. And I'm doing it because this is God's will.
It's like, no, God God's got nothing to do with it, mate. You You've You've You've put that opinion upon that yourself.
You're persecuting people based on a book.
Yeah. But but it's but it's not even that. It's it's just based on your your own interpretation of the text.
Yeah. It's like
often a misinterpretation.
That's the thing, isn't it? Like all these wars and violence are enacted on people because they read a bit of some words in a book and they go, "He didn't want to do this thing." But if if you skip skip forward 4,000 pages, it contradicts that point. So, which bit are we f****** listening to,
which Well, that's it, isn't it? It's whatever bit you want to listen to really.
Um, I just wondered if it I wondered if he was So, it's something I've been thinking about a little bit because there you do have those institutions in this movie and I think that's the big three, the psychiatry, the police, the the the church, and the religion. And I was surprised that the the priest popped up in the end. I think I'd forgotten about that character cuz so much going on in this film as well.
Ashbury, is he called Ash? Is that what his name is?
I believe so.
I'm relying on you. I don't know. I know Boon Boon. And I know Lori and I know Deca.
And when it comes to the monsters,
Mhm.
I'm going to be going to you uh spiky cultural appropriation guy. I'm going to be going guy with face and stuff.
He's got the spiky dreadlock things.
Oh, no.

(06:40):
Pelquin.
Sure.
Yeah.
A guy what what tears his own face off with the the the cool hat.
Nice.
Yeah.
Who was apparently named after the um only Haitian zombie allegedly.
Okay. I I was going to ask about that character cuz doesn't he say we first meet him in the hospital
where Boon is is this after Boon's been drugged by Deca?
Yeah. So again, the director's cop makes that a lot clearer,
right? Okay.
Because in the theatrical cut, Deca just goes, "Take these pills." And Boon goes, "Okay, nom nom nom." And then he's just stumbling in the middle of the road going,
I would say.
Well, yeah, I'm sure.
Free, you say. Give it.
Yeah. No, I would never do that.
In the directorial um in the director's court rather, the pills are given to him. He goes home and then he starts hallucinating at home. Obviously, he's just been told that he's a murderer. I think I like crazy or not, I would probably have more questions than he does.
Yeah.
I'd be like, but no, I'm not.
Yeah. I don't I don't remember doing that.
Yeah. I don't think I am actually.

(07:01):
But he had the dreams.
He did have the dreams. Yeah.
Yeah.
He's obviously seen Dr. Deca for a reason. Um and Dr. Decka's just sort of gone, "Huh, I can pin my crimes on this guy." Which, what was his thinking behind that? Because
is he just going to stop his crime spree? Cuz if he can no longer pin it on Boon, would the police not be like, "Well, these new murders match the MO of that dead guy.
Who is it this time?" I just don't think he thought it through. Anyway,
so is he just retiring at that point? I guess hanging up his hat. Yeah,
I've done my bit now.
Maybe his sack head.
Yeah,
Mr. Buttonface.
Maybe he's done cleaning the world of
tra Did he say trash trasheders?
Breeders.
He's got a point though.
He killed Captain Hollister, which is my my uh one main criticism of him cuz he was in that Chris Barry show, which I promised to mention this week.
Oh my god, I can't believe you actually found a way to work with Dwarfin.
When Hollister appeared on screen, I was like, "That's it. That's my in."
I was making a joke.
I know.
How have you done it? Oh my god.

(07:22):
Well, thank uh thank Clive Baster and his casting agent for putting Captain Hollister in post Red Wolf as well, I would say, after he was in Redolf. I wouldn't have I wouldn't have clocked that.
No.
Well done.
Yeah. All right. Well, he wasn't in it for long to be fair.
No. Um, but yeah. So, there is a much more extended sequence where Boon goes home and he's tripping balls in his underwear and obviously having just been told that he's a murderer, he's he sets fire to like his passport and a bunch of documents and photos and stuff and then hallucinates Lori being there and them having sex and then he's out. Well, then he goes to the club to see her sing
and we get that just just give us like a snippet of the song. We don't need the whole song. It's such a terrible song.
Okay.
It's awful. It's so bad
and it goes on for a while
and it goes on for it feels like seven minutes. It's not.
You just forward it, can't you?
Oh, it's so bad. That's the one thing I wish they hadn't put back in in the director's cut. Clive Barker was obviously very attached to that song. And to be fair, like Anne Bobby is great, but awful. And Then he leaves without speaking to her and then he's traing through the road and
yeah
ends up in the hospital.
That's when he goes to the hospital because Deca at that in a theatrical cut the scene prior to that is Deca take these pills. You've got 24 hours to hand yourself into the old bill otherwise
I'm going to do it for you.
Mhm.
Um I don't I wasn't that hung up on that. Like he took the pills and I just was like oh yeah he's he's seeing him for a reason. He's hallucinating. He's having these dreams of Midian. What confused me is why the psychiatrist was so fascinated with his dreams about Midian. It's almost like Deca knew that it was a like a real place that existed and he just seemed to be fascinated by it.
I don't know.
I'm not sure about I think maybe I think he was fascinated by it. Yeah. But I think maybe he hadn't heard of it until Boon started talking about it
because it's also when Boon gets to the hospital and he meets Naris. Naris asks him about Midian and he's, "Oh, do you know where this gaff is? I really want to go there." Plus, now I'm going to cut my face off.

(07:43):
And um you do for reasons.
Yeah. Uh so it feels like it's like this like underground club that only a select few VIP people know. A golf club. It's a golf club. Yeah.
Complete with a percussionist that bangs on the wall. So I I don't know what is like thematically I get why the psychiatrist character wants to destroy it and why that works through the narrative of the movie. I just want to maybe more literally than metaphorically why he gets to that point and how he gets to that point. Why he assumes it is a real thing rather than just going my patient needs help. This is not real. And and but then yeah why is he also trying to pin the murders? on on Boon. Is there a grand plan here that is not fully fleshed out that maybe might have been more explored in subsequent movies?
Maybe
because he's uh
it was I believe intended to be a trilogy.
A trilogy. Okay.
I think I remember reading that a long time ago, which kind of brings me to my biggest criticism of the theatrical cut at least, and that is that obviously a lot of things happen And we do have a beginning, a middle, and end, and there's a climax, but it's very open-ended, and it sort of feels very much like setup.
Yeah. Oh, 100%. Yeah.
Which is which is my probably only and biggest criticism about the film.
Okay.
But I I find it easier not to pick apart the the wise and the wares and the house because it's in the prophecy. Dan,
it's prophecied.
So, yeah. written on the walls.
I'd forgotten I'd forgotten that we got to that bit in the movie where there's a crayon drawing of Boon being bitten by a spiky guy. Yeah.
Um we we'll get we'll get to the end. We will get to the end. I do want to discuss the end of the theatrical cut versus director's car and what the differences are because I've not seen a director's cut and I I it's quite different from what I understand.
It's not massively different.
All right, forget that then.
It's it's just restructured and with about 20 minutes of additional footage.
Okay.
I think maybe they removed some bits as well from the theatrical,

(08:04):
but it definitely works better as a proper film, if that makes sense.
Yeah. Okay. So, it's a it's about it's about an hour before is it was it about an hour before we get to actually Boon joining the Night Breed?
No, I think it happens before that.
Does it? Okay.
Maybe at the halfway mark.
So, he gets shot by the police.
Mhm. Uh,
but he's already been bitten, so the bite is what brings him back.
He gets bitten by um
Pelican Pelican. Yes.
And um and because he's been bitten, he's got the the blood so that when he gets shot and killed, he becomes the night breed. Or is he already a night breed? That's not clear to me.
He's Jesus.
He's lit he's literal Jesus.
He's night breed Jesus.
Is that a boon mask?
Oh yeah. And there's a Dr. Deca mask up there as well.
We should been wearing these masks for this podcast.
I feel like the sound would be a little bit more muffled.
Yeah, it would be. Um,
the Boon mask is s***.
I mean, we've got to do something with those for the the stories or something.

(08:25):
We will.
Um, what was I saying? So, right. So, Boon So, Boon gets gied by the old Bill.
Yeah.
By by old mate from Hobby City.
Oh, yeah. When did you turn into Danny Dyier? Gets ged by the old Bill.
Yeah. Um because Deca Deca says, "Oh, he's got a gat on him. You bet you better plug him now."
And he gets plugged and then old mate from Hobby City is like, "Yeah, ain't got a gap, man."
And and then he dies, gets taken to the morg and somehow ends back at Midian. But at that point, he's he's dreamt about Midian. He's tried to get there. He's been killed and now he's accepted and he gets tested by the the bowl of jizz. Right.
Yes.
Yes. Uh, you had to actually point out to me that um, not Durk Gentley. Durk something.
You're talking about Lylesburg.
Dirk Lylesburg. Yeah. What's Durk Gentley? I feel like that's a ' 90s detective show or something.
Isn't that like a Gennis?
I'm going to Google this. What is
No. Is it
Douglas Adams or something? I I don't know.
Durk gently.
It's based on book.
It's Steven Mangan.
Yeah, that's a blast from the past. Um, yeah. Uh, what was I saying? Old mate. Um, Doug Mccclure.
Lilesburg. Oh, Doug Jones.

(08:46):
No, not Doug Jones.
Um, Doug Bradley.
Doug. We got there in the end.
So, there are three cenites in this movie,
right? So, he turns up there and Doug Bradley's like, "Put your hand in your bowlers and we're going to see if you're an actual night breed. So my question is, was he a night breed before he got bitten by a pelican or or was he or did he become a night breed when he got bitten by the pelican?
I think I think you should do recap um recaps of movies on YouTube.
I can when I get some time, I'll happily do it. So but that's my question. He was dreaming of Night Breed. Uh the night
before he got bitten, he was a natural.
And that means you're not a night breed. You're just a regular human.
Yes. But he was dreaming of it.
But he was always fated to become one of the night breed.
Okay.
To become one of the tribes of the moon.
So when
and save save them. Save baff.
When um we'll get to that. So when so when Pelican bit him, he was like, I'm going to bite you, man, because you're on our ground now.
You're on our fam.
Yeah. And I'm a bit I'm a I'm like a sort of a baddie. I guess the most baddy not of the night breeds apart from He's a dick.
Yeah, he's a bit of a dick.
Uh, so but does he know about the crown drawings on the wall in the cave at this point? He must have seen them. So, he knows that he's doing the thing that's on the wall. But we're led to believe that he's acting out.
And um Chin Headman is like, "Don't that guy."

(09:07):
He's like, "Don't do that. That's naughty." But he's like, "I'm going to f****** do it anyway." But
f*** the law.
f*** the law, man. Yeah.
But he does it anyway. I don't know. It feels a bit weird. don't it? I don't know where I'm going with this.
I don't either, but it's fascinating. Carry on.
But I think that's I think that's what this film for me is though. Like I can't quite work it out. And that's part of the thing that I find interesting about it. Like it's
it gets from one place to the other and maybe it's a bit messy but I'm like but why have they done these things? This is fascinating.
There's clearly a very distinct vision.
Yeah.
But I think Yeah. It's not necessarily constru ed or explored or explained in the in in totally adequate ways.
And what about in a director's cut? Is it is it explained any any better than
that bit specifically?
Yeah, I suppose so. Okay.
Not really. No.
Okay. But so it's just a prophecy and we have to accept that it's a prophecy.
Yes.
Okay. I I can I can do that. I can live with that.
But in the same way that Christians are like, we just have to accept what the Bible says.
Yeah.
We have to accept what it says in Cabal.
Okay. Okay, we're we're in Midian. I suppose that's when the movie really gets going for I mean in terms for me

(09:28):
I guess so, but to to me like it's sort of non-stop.
I mean it's definitely it
it's just like a non-stop gatling gone of s*** happening.
It definitely rips through the narrative and you're going from one place to the next without much breath.
Yeah.
But for me, I guess what I'm trying to say is like where it gets really interesting
in in terms of getting to Midian and seeing the creatures and the set design and just the imagination of of all of the the costumes and and and prosthetics and map paintings again.
Matt paintings. Do you know who did the map paintings?
No.
Ralph McQuary.
Ralph McQuary who is a human.
He was a human. He's an exhuman,
right?
He was most famous for a lot the concept artwork for Star Wars. He did the map paintings for Star Wars. He did the concept designs for like C-3PO and Darth Vader. So,
he's like the dude. He's the guy.
He didn't have anything to do with um I think maybe he might have done initial concept designs for The Thing.
Oh, maybe.
Maybe. I I feel like that's something that I remember from my research before we recorded that episode, but maybe something we didn't talk about.
Okay.
Threads. Interesting. Yeah. Um, beautiful matte paintings in this.
Again, just something that oddly I wouldn't have expected it in this season, but something that's come up again and again and again,

(09:49):
right?
And um
I think I think this film is such a a showcase of lost art forms.
Yeah.
And I think that's it's funny that's definitely a recurring theme in almost all of my choices this season. Empire Records is the outlier.
Yeah,
for sure. But I think I'm so taken with films that showcase such imagination and just craft, the craftsmanship and the techniques used in this. Like we've got the the whole gamut from map paintings to like in camera effects which granted looked s*** but still um there was a bit of stop motion. There was a sweaty puppet at one point.
Yeah. Oh, the the can't go in sunshine puppet.
It's so cute.
Oh, it's disgusting. So cute. Did it burn?
No. So cute. How dare you. Um yeah, miniatures. They used miniatures. Um forced perspective. It's all there. It's so creative. And I think that's that's the number one reason why I love this movie so much.
Yeah. And and I I really like it when it it gets to to like I said, I quite like I think I quite like this movie. It has a sort of a charm to it. There's So there's who?
The sweaty puppet.
No, I don't like the sweaty puppet. But there's so much, like you say, there's so much skill involved with it. There's such it's such a vision. I admire its um
it's very ambitious.
Ambition, that's the word I was looking for. Yeah, I admire that totally. And it's unlike anything else. I I wish we would have gotten more from it, but equally, I don't I don't mind being left on a cliffhanger, but I thinking back to when I was a child, I think when I saw that cover of the VHS, I knew it was Clive Barker. I knew it was the Hellraiser guy who came up with the pin head and the center bites and all of that creative monster fantasy stuff which I loved in that movie.
And then this opened with a the slasher element. I think I just wanted to get to the monsters,
right?
And because it takes a while to get to that is probably why I sort of checked out of it. And and and I love this when it gets to that for me I feel like it just takes a bit too long perhaps. I know you get cuty off face guy and pelican bitey shoulder guy
but face
but when it gets to Midian and we're just underground for 20 minutes or so.

(10:10):
Mhm.
I for me I I'm just like oh look at like every frame I'm just like want to explore.
Yeah. Particularly the sequence where Lori's sort of stumbling around trying to find Boon who's gone to see Baff. M
and she's sort of encountering all of these different creatures and the amount of work that must have gone in and as you've already said for some of them that you only see for seconds.
It's crazy.
And then you might see them again in the background of a shot.
It's it's nuts. The amount of work that must have gone in.
Yeah.
Is just next level.
I really love all that stuff and I just would have loved to have spent more time in that in that world before
before all all hell breaks loose in in the final act in the movie, which I quite again quite like that.
But I would maybe have liked to spent a bit more time there,
but that sort of ties into my my one criticism really is that it it sort of does just feel like buildup and world building.
Yeah.
And and we don't sadly get enough time to to fully explore that because the subsequent movies were s*** canned.
It's just such a cry and shame.
Yeah. And you mentioned earlier like you were asking if if Clive Barker owns the rights to Night Breed. Honestly, I don't know, but I hope so because for maybe the past 15 years, there have been rumblings of a potential TV show.
And I want nothing more because I think I don't know I don't know who I would sort of cast in the lead roles. I don't think Craig Sheffer's super charismatic, but he's a He's a
talking a reboot. Are we reboot TV show? We're not talking.
Well, yeah, we would have to, right?
Well,

(10:31):
you can't get Craig Sheffer now. He's
Yeah, you put him in makeup. Don't matter, does it? He's a monster now.
But I don't know. I think I think there is so much scope for like a miniseries, maybe
like six to eight hourong episodes. I would eat that s*** up.
I haven't read the book, but it from watching the movie and feeling like quite a lot of the the major points in the movie could be fleshed out more.
I do. Yeah, I'd agree. Like a miniseries would probably be a good shout. I did watch a Q&A with Clive Barker. I think they had just screened the director's cut.
Okay.
And he was super thrilled that he got the chance to watch a director's cut and and it got a release. I think
I'm so happy that happened in his lifetime.
Yeah.
He must have been so gutted.
He was he was uh He was um he was thrilled. I think I want to say it was about 2015.
Yeah, that sounds I think I think the director's cut was released in 2014. So that tracks
Yeah, around about that time, but he was very he's very happy um that that happened and I think someone mentioned about a potential TV show or something at that point. Maybe it was when that started bubbling
around.
Um but he was he was a bit koi about it. He sort of said, "Yeah, there are sort of But I don't want to get too far ahead of myself. So it feels like it's something that he wanted to happen
but didn't obviously 10 years on now it's not happened so far. So it's disappointing.
Yeah.
I guess it's a money thing.
I think that'd be some of the sh I mean we're getting we've got another f****** Jack Reacher show on on Amazon Prime at the moment. Why aren't we getting stuff like this
with real imagination and and get a proper budget? behind it.

(10:52):
I would love nothing more, but I do appreciate from a the perspective of the people in charge of the purse strings, I understand why it would be a hard sell. But I think if it's in the hands of the right people,
yeah,
it could be incredible. And I think with Clive Barker's, it would have to be with Clive Barker's involvement
or somebody who's prepared to
give his original texts like the the appropriate reverence.
Yeah. I think I'm with you. I I want to see him in charge of his own properties.
I think the thing that worries me is I don't know how much time he's got left on this mortal coil. Yeah.
He doesn't look like a well man, sadly.
Um so I hope it happens soon. I really do.
Yeah, I'd love to see it. I I'd love to see a new just a new Kry Barker thing as well, just just in general. I'm sure he's got a bunch of ideas and and I'm sure there's a bunch of people out there that would love to work with him. I know we've got obviously Flanigan is doing this the Stephen King thing at the moment.
Mhm.
Maybe not Flanigan because he seems like a super busy guy, but but someone that is of the same skill level or a similar skill level with the same reverence for horror and vision and um commitment to source material uh and and narrative flare. I don't know who that is. I don't know who that
I know. Look, I've racked my brains. But nobody nobody jumps to mind.
But if you're not going to get Barker, then maybe let's have Barker being the the granddaddy overseeing things and we could get someone like a Flanigan in who's shephering that vision perhaps. I It's probably not going to happen, is it?
I would be very surprised at this point. I think I think if it was going to happen, it probably would have done by now.
I I I'm going to immediately go back on my point because because I think eventually All things happen and
in an alternate universe it's been wildly successful. We've at least got that.
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. There's been this in an alter alternate universe. There was one underperforming Hellraiser movie and 15 terrible nightbreak movies.
Yeah. But it's been rebooted and they're in their sixth season now.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Just about to get syndication.

(11:13):
Yeah. But uh let's let's should we talk about the final act of the film.
We can or we can dig into some of the themes.
Let's do themes first. Okay.
And then that might that might take us into final acts. What themes?
What What are themes?
Fames.
What are themes?
Well, I don't know. Like much like Hellraiser, there's definitely an exploration of um how pain is linked to pleasure that's definitely in there. some degree, more so in the director's court.
Okay, you might need to hold my hand on this one.
The I think the the most prevalent theme is obviously something that keeps cropping up this season and is going to continue to. I just love movies about weirdos and outcasts. I want to root for the the outsiders.
Yeah.
And it's becoming increasingly obvious to me as I age and I look at the films that I keep returning to. I love stuff like this. So, I wrote um a big sort of thesis when I was in college about small soldiers.
Okay, I like where this is going
and just how films can sort of present the um the notion of not judging a book by its cover basically.
I love it when that's explored and I think it's done really well here and it's not as if the night breed are yeah they're scary looking and it's not like they're all pillars of society.
Some of them are dicks.
Some of them are dicks. Exactly. There's there's shades of gray there, which I love. Much like the humans, some of those are decent people.
Most of them are crap, but some of them are not. And I think it does really well just just exploring those gray areas and those nuances, but very much presenting a whole this is what can happen if you persecute people who don't look like you. This is what what can happen if you persecute people who live differently to you. And obviously knowing that CL Clive Barker is um a very openly gay man, it's impossible not to draw that parallel. I mean, the film is pretty gay.
Let's be honest. It's quite camp in places.
Yeah.
Which which a lot of horror is. Horror and queerness is is super interlin.

(11:34):
And I think the the biggest sort of takeaway is that it's it's about small town, small-mindedness, not judging people. Um, you know, finding a way to to coexist.
Yeah, I like that. I like the because the like you say, the monsters are some of them are dicks and the biggest dick for me is the Pelican guy.
And then you've got other people that are nice. You got um Durk Gentley who's seems like a kind of a nice leader.
Dirk Lber with his face eyes.
Oh yeah, face eyes. thought they were gills at first, but then at the end of the movie I went, "Oh, they're actual iPhones." Okay.
Um, yeah, it's like and you you said earlier that perhaps the studio were were nervous about that because it was portraying the monsters as some of them as sympathetic and maybe some of them aren't bad guys, some of them are dicks, and there's there's a sort of a mixture like human beings.
Y
and that is super interesting.
Um,
it's it's a much neater concise idea to just present the people who look gross as the bad guys.
Yeah,
I think I think audiences are a bit more ready to embrace that idea, but that's only because that's what they're fed constantly. I think if we have more stuff like this that's challenging the status quo and going, "Well, they might look weird, but they're really nice. They're just like you and me,
except, you know, they live with snakes and eat organs." I don't know.
I don't know. I think is which came first, the chicken or the egg? Like is
it's the egg.
But do people have these narrow-minded ideas because they're not presented with enough dissenting information.
Yeah. I I would say that that probably is the case. And that's exactly why we need people like Bart to present these ideas. A self-confessed weirdo himself. Yes.
He and he's like, "Well, I have these ideas. This is who I am." And they come out of me,
for lack of a better expression. And I think if we expose people more to it, perhaps there might be some more open-mindedness hopefully.
But also, I think everybody's got a little bit of weirdness about them. And I think I think when you damp it down, that's when it can turn into violence and self-hatred, and you you turn that outwards.
I to I totally agree. I I think um I think it's nice to explore our differences. We all are different. and weird in our own ways. And I think it's healthy to embrace that and that's what makes you interesting, right? Like

(11:55):
Yeah. And not condemn people for having f***** up ideas.
Exactly.
Just cuz you think a f***** up thing doesn't make you a f***** up person.
You can't control your thoughts. Like thoughts pop in your head and you go, "That's weird."
Yeah, that was messed up.
Not going to do anything with that thought.
Yep.
And then sometimes you're like, "That's weird. Maybe let's explore that." And it's a, you know, we're human beings and we we know right from wrong. for the most part.
Well, that's it. Your your weird thoughts don't dictate your morality.
No, but but your weird thoughts are part of who you are. And to explore that is to explore human nature.
And who wants to live certainly not me, who wants to live in a world where everyone is a stock person just goes to and they wear a suit to work and they get on the train and then they come home and they wash these denders and the bill. Maybe in 1993.
Yeah. I don't Is the bill still on?
I don't know. No, but like I just I don't know. It's nice to live in a place where people are different and you get exposed to different ideas. I f****** hate going somewhere and having the same stupid conversation about who's on Love Island. I don't give a f***.
Or even but even even talking about deeper things but being stuck in an echo chamber, that's not good either.
No. Well, no. Then that brings a conversation we had this this very past weekend actually. He seemed interesting, but then was just like just spouting things that he'd listened to on Joe Rogan, I think. Um, yeah, I think
but it's good to know what's out there.
Yeah, I I I'm all for uh people embracing their differences and it's isn't it I think I find it a bit ironic that this movie didn't do very well. Really almost sort of proved a point in a way.
Yeah.
And I think that's interesting.
Yeah. I think there were I think there were a multitude of factors as to why this film didn't do well, but um yeah, I think people 's unwillingness to embrace something a little bit different.
Yeah.

(12:16):
Is certainly one of them. But going back to themes, um I want to sort of come back to the religious angle.
I wanted to get there.
Okay. Good. I'm interested to know what you have to talk about. Um I don't know this for a fact, but I would speculate that Clive Barker was potentially raised in a Catholic household.
I don't know for sure, but I get that impression in Sydney as well.
I would put money on it. And I there are several things that make lead me to that conclusion. So Midian was a real place for starters.
It wasn't underneath a cemetery.
Was it in Norwich?
It wasn't in Norwich either. No, certainly was. It wasn't in Norwich. It wasn't in Calgary. It was where what we now call Saudi Arabia basically. But it wasn't back then.
And in the Bible, it's sort of tied to Moses, that guy.
You seen a bad one?
Um ish. He killed a guy.
I'm thinking of Judith.
Judith is Scariot. Um, so he killed a guy in Egypt. And the Pharaoh was going to exact punishment, but Moses was like, "Nah, I'm out." And he f***** off to Midian,
right,
into self-imposed exile for like 40 years, which makes sense. These creatures are in self-imposed exile.
It's It's not really self-imposed exile though, is it? Because the the the back that's question side question in a director's cut. Do we get more explanation about the origins of the night breed and what happens in the dark ages where they all get slaughtered and Okay, that's a shame cuz that was super interesting.
I absolutely love that vision.
Is that where Lori um bet touches Lori? Rachel's like, "Show her."
Yeah.
And she sees that. Oh, so well done. I love Love that.
Yeah,

(12:37):
I love that. Somebody should do a cut of Event Horizon and just insert that footage.
For what happened to the the former crew?
Yeah,
it's not more explored sadly.
Okay, that's a check.
But yeah, there are a number of religious references. Obviously, we've got the priest who becomes I wouldn't say a pivotal character, but a relatively important character in the second half.
Yeah, it feels like he would become more more a part of the plot in subsequent movies.
Yeah.
Well, the way the theatrical cut ends anyway,
that is one of the biggest differences in the director's cut. Um, the director's cut still slightly open-ended, but is just way more satisfying. But we don't see Ashbury resurrect Deca with the jizz.
Did he throw jizz at his face?
I think he put he That's his hand inside him.
This film is so gay.
It fits him.
This film is so gay.
Although there is a lot less um jizz in the film than than in the book. I will say that.
All right.
Make of that what you will. But um yeah.
Well, maybe you should read it to me as a bedtime story. We'll see what happens.
Um sure. Yeah. Which one of my three copies would you like?
The the one the the one That's least slimy. The one The one that's laminated.

(12:58):
When I said it was signed by Clive Barker, I mean with a pen.
This is John Ankok, not his fluids. Thankfully,
although that might go for more on eBay.
It definitely would. You know, we could clone him.
Yeah,
we could clone him. Get him to make a night free TV show. Oh, I thought you were going to say like start a side business of selling jars of Clive Barker spooge.
I don't know if there's much market for that.
We could start with that, I guess.
Yeah, let's clone him. Let's go back to your thing.
Yeah, we could have little Clive Barkers running around. Like Mini Mis, but but Clive Barkers.
That sounds horrendous.
That sounds fun to me.
I'm just I don't know why, but I'm picturing the the little things from the gate just running around. I don't know why my brain went there. It's the difference between me and you, is it? You think of the gate, I think of Mike Meyers.
Yeah.
Oh my god.
In a nutshell,
that's always distilled.
Help. I'm in a nut. How did I get in a shell?
What? Where were we? What were we talking about? Religion themes.
Yeah. So, I'm Well, I'm interested in your take. You said you wanted to talk about the religious angle. So, what have you got to say?
Uh, nothing really. I just

(13:19):
No, I I was I I guess I was just I was super surprised that the priest turned up in it and I I wondered where it was going to go. Part of me thought that maybe the priest was going to come around at the end, particularly when he gets turned, I guess you would call it turned.
Well, he sort of does before that. He's kind of It just sort of feels like he's along for the ride.
Yeah.
Literally, cuz they're just like, "Right, you're coming with us."
And then he there's there's a point at which he tries to Stop. I don't know. The sheriff, the the head the head police,
the guy who just absolutely loses his mind.
The top dog. The guy who was in altered states.
Oh, was that was that the guy?
Charles Hay, I'm pretty sure. Yeah.
Right. Yeah.
He does actually sort of like tap him on the shoulder and goes, "Excuse me, sir. You're killing children."
Yeah.
This isn't cool. Please stop that. So, he is sort of he's kind of on the side of right
until he sneaks into Baffome's chamber. and gets the spooge to the face,
which is 100% on him because he like trips and like spills it on his on his own head.
Absolutely. He touched the fire and he got burned. Yeah,
it's his own fault.
I I was wondering what his arc was going to be at that point. I use arcs loosely because we don't really meet him until later in the movie, but I was when we met him, I was interested to see where it went. And as you say, he does seem reluctant when they're and to just kill all of these creatures and children just because they don't like them.
Mhm.
It feels like he's going to have uh he he's maybe going to do the right thing if you if you want to call it that if we're being black and white. Uh but he doesn't. He spills the the jizz on his face. He gets burnt by by Baffome and his hair falls out and he he is he a night breed now? Is that how that works?
Technically.

(13:40):
So is it that he he now sees this thing in himself and he doesn't like that. So now he wants to kill that.
No, he's got beef with Baffome.
What? What?
Cuz he's like they burned me.
Okay. So So the statue guy,
he's not a statue. He talks.
See, does he talk anymore?
Yeah.
What does he say?
Cuz he says to Boon like, "Save me from my enemies. Heal me."
He does say that. Yes.
And he's he's the one that tasks Boon with finding a new home. He's like, "Homes aren't forever."
Yeah.
This was inevitable. I'm paraphrasing.
It was written in crayon on the cave wall.
It was.
Yeah. So, I don't know. I don't really have much more to say about the religious angle other than more the character. And I I wondered where he was going.
And I kind of would be interested to see what would happen in another movie that happened in that alternate universe that we spoke about earlier. How does that play out? He resurrects Deca at the end by fisting him as you say.
Yeah.
And then I guess in the sequel Deca's back, but now, plot twist, the mask lives on his head
because that's his real face.

(14:01):
I don't know.
We're talking about real identities and like the like what you're pushing down and what is your real face and stuff.
Yeah. He has that line, doesn't he? Like everybody has a secret face.
Yeah. And his secret face is the the mask. He's a bit like Batman in that way. Like man is
he's just like Batman.
He's the real guy.
Yeah. It's like a Ben Affleck one just killing f****** everybody willy-nilly.
Doesn't give a f***.
Yep.
Batman does not kill.
That's for That's a discussion for another show.
We'll get to BBS one day.
Oh, I'm sure. Oh god, I can't wait.
But yeah, in the director's cut, it is very different.
Well, the the ending is different.
The ending is very different.
Can you explain to me how so.
So, one of my biggest gripes with the theatrical cut is that it just f****** ends.
Yeah.
There's all this there's all this climactic stuff like the the fantastic effects with the miniature where the the truck kind of crashes through.
I love that.

(14:22):
Brilliant. Brilliantly done. 11 million million budget. Seriously,
they stretched it so well.
If like if this came out today, I'd be saying that is 90 80 90 million. Yeah, maybe more.
Yeah,
if you scale everything up.
Yeah,
I don't know. Look.
Anyway, Hellraiser was made for a million quid. That blows my mind. This
they did brilliantly.
Yeah, Clyde Barker can work with a budget.
Yeah. Um, so we have all of that and then in the theatrical cut it just sort of cuts to you've got the bit with Baffome saying, you know, save me from my enemies and then it you see a bunch of monsters in a barn.
Yeah.
As the camera pans away and That's it. It's such a weird abrupt ending, but it feels like there's going to be more, which is that I hate that ending because that is the most sort of stay tuned for part two that we don't get,
and it pisses me off. So, in the director's cut, everything sort of plays out very similarly, but there's a lot of extra scenes. Deca does not get resurrected. There is a bit with Ashbury. Deca does not get resurrected.
What does What does Ashbury do then? Instead of fisting down,
it's more it's more or less the same. He just doesn't resurrect Deca. We don't get that scene.
Okay.
And then it kind of cuts back to um Boon and Lori. They escape. He's talking about, "Oh, I have to go and help the Night Breed now. I I have to be their leader and find them a new home." And she's like, "But I went through all of this f****** s*** for you. You're just going to leave me now." And he's like, "Mate, I've got to go, S."
And she's like, "But but what? I literally walked through hell for you."
And he's like, Don't know what to tell you, ma'am. She's like, "Fine, go." Again, I'm paraphrasing.
There's a there's a a woman with spikes on her her back who needs

(14:43):
Yeah. Tuna. What?
Shuna, not tuna. Shuna sassy.
Porcupine.
Yeah. I love the fact that there's like Shuna, Kinsky, Nariss, Rachel.
Yeah. Which one's Rachel?
The one who can turn to smoke.
Oh, yeah.
Who did Who seduced the did a naked seduction of the There's a bit of um we hate you, but you're quite sexy in this, isn't there?
Which was an homage to Toby Hooper's Life Force.
We covered that movie, didn't we?
The Patrick Stewart one.
Yeah.
Yeah. So, they
That's f What other movies are Margie Force?
Very few, I imagine.
I didn't love that movie, but I love that it's referenced here.
Um, so they have this conversation. She's holding Deca's knife. that she pulled out the wall and he's like farewell and she's like psych and stabs herself.
Okay.
Because she she was saying like make me one of one of the night breed and he was saying no.
So she stabs herself and he's like s*** now I've got her. So he bites her. Um there's a there's a moment or two of like ah I'm too late. And then she opens her eyes again.
Okay.

(15:04):
And it sort of ends with them staring off into the middle distance. silhouetted by the sun.
Okay.
Setting.
And then that's when I walked into the front room earlier where there's the the picture of them both holding hands.
Mhm.
And it was that meant to be like a cave painting as part of
that was part of the prophecy. Yeah.
Like they are coming to help the Night Breed together
like uh as a as a like a power couple.
As a unit, a power couple.
All right. Okay. It does end very abruptly the theatrical version. I
Yeah. It doesn't it doesn't fully work, but I don't hate it. I think I'm left on a cliffhanger and I really want to see where it goes, but equally
I'm happy to be left to my own imagination. It's like the ending of inner space where
you always always got to bring up inner space
where where Jack put like it's further adventures. He thinks that uh someone is going after Tuck Pendleton and Lydia after they're married. and he chases after him in a car and you were like, "Oh, there's going to be further adventures here. That's exciting. Wouldn't it be fun to think about what those further adventures would be with Martin Short and Dennis Quaid and Meg Ryan?" But you don't need it. Like the imagination is good enough, I think.
Or like the end of Mac and Me when he blows the bubble in the car and it on the bubble it says, "We'll be back."
Yeah.
And they never were.
Yeah.
But I still get to think about how many more cans of Coke and bags of Skittles they would have eaten.
Yeah.

(15:25):
So,
or at the end of times the universe. If you if you carry on to the the after the end credits where Frank Langello pops his head up above that that pink the slime, the river of slime and he goes, "I'll be back." Because that that worked in a franchise before, didn't it? Um and he never was.
I'll be back.
I'll be back.
You see me talking about Cino Man.
Yeah. But he will be back, but 45 years later and he's going to be replaced by Jared Leto.
Oh god.
Let's move on.
Yeah.
I'm I quite enjoyed the ending of this. I It's crazy. It goes mad in that final act. It just erupts into absolute carnage. It's almost like a war movie.
Yeah.
And I like I like kind of that left turn that it takes. It feels surprising but equally fitting. Like
it's it sort of veers into like classic monster movie territory. because it's it's the villagers with the pitchforks. Yeah. You know, trying to hunt down Frankenstein's monster.
Yeah. Absolutely. And I like that. And it it feels like it's a a fitting climax to to what we've seen before that. And you get a lot more of the monsters. And I I I think the one thing I I would like to see more of is we mentioned, oh, these berserkers don't want to let them out. And we let them out. It's like, well, where are they? What's happened? What have they done? They do a bit, but like you don't
they did some killings, they did some murder,
but I I it feels like they were built up quite a lot
and I maybe would like to have seen more carnage as like not as bad as they said you were, are you berserkers? I mean um and maybe some of the humans to get a bit more of a a uh a bit more of a comeuppance, I guess.
Yeah,
you get that one dude who Who's is who's just like, "Oh, she's spiky and she's got boobs." I'm like, "Walk in there."
Men are so easy.
You're an idiot.

(15:46):
She's literally a human porcupine with tits and you're entranced.
She spits you in the back. Come on, mate. We got to be smarter than this. But then they're not smart people. They're following the crowd.
Yeah.
They are like, "That's wrong." And because they say it's wrong and God and this and and that and just just not thinking for themselves. So, I can I can let that go. It's funny to me.
If these people were real, they'd all have bought supplements from Alex Jones.
Let's be honest.
Yeah. Neutropics.
100%. Yeah. Like you said earlier in the show that they'll be wearing MAGA hats.
Yeah.
Yeah. I quite like this. Uh it's it's weird. It's one of those movies that I enjoy watching and there's so much skill and craft in it and imagination that I can understand why I like it from that perspective. But then part of me is a bit confused on why I enjoy it as much as I do now.
I I think I watching it for the podcast maybe come down a peg after the last time that I watched it.
Okay. With a more critical eye, you mean?
Only because of Yeah. Because of a more critical eye. Like as a as a piece of popcorn, I I think it's great. Just it's just silly.
Some of it doesn't make any sense, but as a narrative piece, there are obviously some glaring holes which you can't Yeah. No, I can absolutely see why people thought the theatrical version was lacking and even the director's core. It's it's far from being a perfect film, but like you said, I just think there's so much imagination on show, so much skill, so much craft, so much care that whether or not it was butchered by the studio, mismarketed, mishandled, I don't know.
There's something there.
Yeah. You don't get movies like this. It's so rare. And and and Barker is is such a visionary. Even the best horror directors are nothing like him.
And obviously he was in inspired by old older works and but he has his own thing and that that that's once in a generation. You don't get that. And I and I feel like the further away from release that we get from Night Breed, the more for me anyway that I appreciate it for for
the ambition and just what it was trying to do and what it is not not what I want it to be or what what it could have been. It's like no that's pretty awesome like what what they came up with and what they did for that budget.
It's imperfect but it's magic somehow.
Yeah, it's it's a fascinating movie. Definitely. And I think we should definitely watch this director's cut at some point. I think I would definitely like to.
Yeah, I'd be really interested to see how you feel the two compare. I

(16:07):
I guess I'm kind of interested in watching Cabal Cup. Not Not 450 quid. I'm not What was it 500 quid or something you saw it going for on eBay?
Yeah.
Yeah. Crazy money.
I'm not 500 quid interested.
Um but also
I think the director's cut is better than the Cabal C. I think that was a little bit flabby if I'm being honest.
And also like if if some of it is a bit uh a bit grainy and not doesn't look great, then I
assume they've been able to clean it up some
there's going to be a version of that in 10 years time. where it just looks crystal clear where AI is just filling in all the gaps.
But I guess out of the three cuts, I'm most interested now to watch the director's cut if it's if if that's the one that Barker that's the one that he lends his name to.
The director's cut.
Yeah, I definitely would like to see that and kind of wish that we'd gotten to watch it maybe, but you've seen it. We're able to talk about the differences. So, and I've only seen the theatrical cut a couple of times. So maybe wasn't a bad shot, but
and fragments of it as a child maybe.
Yeah, I there's the it's the cover. It's it's the cover.
Yeah,
that's pretty much most of the thing what I remember from this movie. But
which one is your favorite monster?
My favorite monster is the dog.
The Oh, that was um that was the dog was um belonged to one of the crew members.
I heard this. Yes.
Little Boston Terrier. So cute. Yes. Um, who who was my favorite monster? I don't know if I have a favorite monster. I hated Pelican, but he's probably the most memorable, I would say. No, I think I like Porcupine Lady

(16:28):
Shunasi.
Yeah. What about you?
I don't know his name, but I'm quite fond of the guy who feeds blood to his fish and has the two tentacles that come out of his stomach.
Oh, Lord, I've forgotten about that guy.
And he's the one who goes, "Dear goes the neighborhood.
Yeah,
I like him.
He's very on set there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. No, I didn't I didn't care for that.
What's he going to do with those fish?
Who knows? Are the fish even Okay. Are the fish night breed?
The fish are night breed, I think. Yeah.
So, the dog must be night breed.
So, there's aquatic night breed.
Yeah. It's not just humans.
Or maybe they're just animal people. Maybe they just like creatures.
The snakes the night breed that live on the steps.
Y
uh the fish are night breed. There's probably rats in there that what are night breed.

(16:49):
Mhm.
Um microbial creatures, microscopic creatures. They're probably night breed.
Amiebas.
Amiebas. Yeah, there's probably like some lizards in there. They're probably night breed.
Sea monkeys.
Sea monkeys. All sea monkeys are night breed whether they're in Midian or not.
That's true. Yeah, that is cannon.
Yeah. Uh
so
so We covered it.
Yeah, finally covered it. It's something that I'm guessing you wanted to get to. You've not covered this before. We never covered this before.
All of your time podcasting radio gore press.
I know.
Horror. You You had a horror podcast. I
do.
Why did you never get to this? I should have asked you this up top.
Honestly, I don't know because my first ever horror podcast was with Jamie from Final Transmission.
I listened to their Night Break show actually.
Yeah, he covered Night Breakf before I did.
But I don't know. I don't know. I think Much like the thing when you love a film so much, when it's so close to your heart, it's a little bit daunting.
Yeah,

(17:10):
I was a little bit nervous to record this. I wanted to do it justice and I feel like my thoughts have been a little bit unclear and I've been a bit meandering, much like the movie,
but I'm so glad that we finally had a sit down and talked about it.
I think we've had a very interesting discussion. Even if I do say so myself, I've enjoyed this chat. I think there's there's there's plenty to dig into there with the film, with the creator with what it was going for, what it tried to do and didn't quite achieve, what it could have been, what it is, and appreciating it. I think there's there's loads to dig into. I'm amazed that you haven't covered it, but I totally hear what you're saying. When we inevitably get to Terminator 2, I I'm just going to be like, but it's the I love the bit when he takes the skin off his arm, and I feel like I'm not going to be able to do it justice because it's just going to be me going, I love this film.
Yeah.
And it's a masterpiece. Uh,
well, I'm just glad that you get something out of Night Breed and it wasn't just another show of me going, "This is amazing." And you're like, "It's fine."
Um, yeah, you didn't need much convincing, which makes me happy.
I When you sort of said you're going to put this on the flop season. I was like, "Yeah, that's a good choice." It is a flop. Obviously, not as big of a flop as
it's not an Empire Record.
It's not a Police Academy 7. Um, it's not about Battlefield. Is it a Battlefield? I can't remember. f****** put that movie on my my memory.
Never think of that again.
Yeah. But um I feel like I feel like maybe this might be peak Sarah's picks this season. Maybe.
Yeah.
I mean, the thing aside, there's maybe one other movie which is I think is quite good,
but
and another one that's
there's not.
Yeah. You've got how many you got now? You got seven and nine. So, you got two more after What are yours? And one of them is not good
by me. It's going to be fun.
And I won't try defending it. It's terrible.
But it's great at the same time.

(17:31):
But here we've got a nice mixture of incredible
It's a weird decision and just but but interesting um ideas and uh what they were trying to do.
But if you if you want to delve into the world a little bit more, I've got all of the Night Breed comics.
Okay. I
the Night Breed Razer crossover comics as well.
What?
Yeah.
Okay, that sounds interesting to me.
There was also a game for the Amigga, but I don't have that.
A Night Breed computer game
game. Yeah, I think they really banked on it doing big numbers at one point.
On the AmIgga, you say?
The Amigga?
I think so. Anyway,
God, I haven't heard the word amigga in 27 years. Is that the one with the the green and red buttons on the the number pad?
I never have. one
I don't is it you got 17 floppy discs and you have to put one in and you like put that in and grab my dinner for an hour and I can play the first four minutes.
Well, unlike now where every time I want to play a game on my Xbox One, I have to go f***. It's a 40inute update.
Try having a PlayStation. PlayStation's even worse. 4 hours. I haven't played Gran Turismo in in in 3 months.
So, the graphics are better, but we haven't really come out that far.
Not really. No.

(17:52):
What are we doing next week?
All right. I'm glad that you asked. It is back to me. We're back on the even numbers next week. We are doing a movie that neither of us have seen.
I think the only one this season that neither of us have seen.
Okay. So, it's it's a bit of a gamble in that sense. It's a movie that I feel it's I chose it because it was a flop apparently, but also it's something I feel like I should see as a a fan of film and cinema.
Same. and otour directors directed by Marty Scorsese. It's the king of comedy.
Interesting.
It feels like a bit of an outlier in this season. Battlefield Earth,
Nightbe, King of Comedy.
What else? What other theme could you get those three in?
Yeah, it's it's one that I've meant to get to for a while and I think it's on one of these free streaming platforms. Hopefully, it still is. Um, King of Comedy up next next week.

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Nightbreed - S10 E77

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