The King of Comedy - S10 E78

Alright, film fanatics, gather round your audio devices! Dan and Sarah are back on Shoot the Hostage, and this week we’ve finally braved a cinematic experience that’s less blockbuster and more… well, block-bust. We're talking about Martin Scorsese’s 1982 gem (that the world collectively ignored), The King of Comedy. Settle in as we dissect this certified box office flop, a movie so unloved by initial audiences that, according to Entertainment Tonight, was the biggest flop of 1983.

We'll be trying to unravel why this incredible film, starring the one and only Robert De Niro as the intensely awkward and delusional Rupert Pupkin, alongside the incomparable Jerry Lewis as the beleaguered talk show host Jerry Langford, somehow failed to connect with audiences despite the Scorsese touch. Was the world simply not ready for its cringe comedy and profoundly uncomfortable exploration of fame and obsession?

We'll also be singing the praises (as we see fit) of Sandra Bernhard’s gloriously unhinged performance as Masha, a character who redefines the term 'stan'.... We’ll be tackling the burning questions: Was Rupert the proto-incel? Is his stand-up actually… good? And just how much inspiration did Joker shamelessly borrow from this criminally underseen cult film? (Spoiler: a metric tonne)

What to expect from this episode:

• A deep dive into the mystery of why The King of Comedy was a certified box office flop yet has ascended to cult classic status.
• Our unfiltered opinions on the unforgettable performances of Robert De Niro, the surprisingly serious Jerry Lewis, and the absolute revelation that is Sandra Bernhard.
• A look at the film’s unsettlingly contemporary themes of celebrity worship, the desperate pursuit of fame, and the dark side of parasocial relationships.
• Our reliably questionable humour and Dan’s ongoing battle with basic pronunciation.

So, if you're a devotee of Martin Scorsese, fascinated by movies that flopped at the box office, or simply seeking a podcast that appreciates a truly unique and disturbingly prescient film, then congratulations, you’ve found your tribe! Subscribe now so you don't miss our descent into the delusional world of a wannabe comedy king!

Season 10 runs until May 26th with 10 episodes this time

Would you like to see the full lineup for season 10? The only place you can see it is on Patreon but you don't need to be a paying member. Sign up for a free membership and get access to the lineup.

If you do have some loose change consider signing up as a paid member. Our £3 a month Patreon tier will grant you access to all of our end of season wrap shows for seasons 1-9 and a minimum of 2 reviews of brand new movies each month. Plus the back-catalogue of reviews from 2023 and 2024. 

Enjoy the show but can't support us financially? We get it. You could submit a review on the podcast player you're reading this on right now. Or if you listen on Spotify and you haven't given us a five-star rating yet, what are ye waiting for? It's easy.

If you've done some or all of that and still want to do more, we would love it if you tell a friend about the show.  

Or come find us on social media:

Instagram | TikTok | Threads | YouTube

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hello and welcome to Shoot a Hostage with me, Dan, and my partner, Sarah. We're a movie podcast who talks about a different film each week based on a theme. We do swear and we do spoil the featured movie. So, only ever listen if you've seen the film or you don't care too much about spoilers. If you're a regular listener, you can just skip forward until you hear the intro music cuz you've heard all of this before. But if you are new to the show and you do enjoy what you hear, there are a couple of things you can do to help support the show. Firstly, make sure that you're subscribed on on your podcast player so you get notified when new shows drop on Mondays. Uh you could rate us five stars on Spotify, which couldn't be easier. You just hit the star icon below the show's artwork. Or if you have a spare few minutes, we'd love it if you could submit a review wherever you listen. Uh make sure you come follow us at_pod on social media. We are active on Instagram, threads, and Tik Tok. And lastly, the biggest thing you can do to help is tell a friend about the show. So that's about it. That's enough preamble from me. Uh over to me and Sarah for this week's episode. We're back for another episode in flop season. Mhm.

(00:01):
Last week was your pick. We did night breed. We did Night Breed. Yes.
And we're taking it turns this season. Back to me. And we're doing our first objectively good movie.
The Thing is objectively good
in a while. Let me
Oh, sneaky, sneaky, sneaky.
Um, The King of Comedy.
Well, it's marked as 1982, but it actually didn't come out in most areas until 1983.
Yeah, I figured that. because I did read that um I think it was Entertainment Tonight called it the biggest flop of 1983.
Yes, I heard that too. I believe it was released in Iceland in 1982.
Why did they get it a year early?
I do not know.
Weird.
This was a first time watch for us both were right, wasn't it?
Yep.
And it's a big old flop.
I'm vaguely embarrassed that I hadn't seen it until now.
Are you?
Well, embarrassed is the wrong word. I feel like I should have seen seen it by now. And I I think when you hear that something's a flop, you kind of expect it to be bad, right?
Well, I guess so,
but then you see Scorsese and Dairo and you think, but it can't be. It can't be bad.
And it's not uh spoilers. It's not. It's great, but Scorsese is not. I was looking at his films and his box office returns on his films, and they're not the most successful

(00:22):
really.
Yeah. I think we've got I I think The Departed was was the top Wolf of Wall Street. It was more of his newer stuff. He's never been a smash the box office type guy. It's like more critically acclaimed
and just films that people love uh and are wellmade, interesting movies, what have usually got Robert Dairo in. But but I think this is probably his biggest flop. I know Hugo is touted as a as a big old floppy flop of his, but Uh, yeah. I think it's a cartoon.
Is it?
I think it's an animated film.
Is there like a clock on the cover?
A what?
A clock.
Oh, yes. Yeah. Yes.
Trying to enunciate a little bit more clearly.
Um, sure.
Well, I just want to make sure I'm thinking of the right thing.
I think it's a cartoon, but I think that is tell I think because maybe that that probably had a really big budget and didn't do very well,
right? this um King King of Comedy was made for $19 million and gross two and a half million. So, is it his biggest flop? I don't know. Possibly.
I think it's generally considered to be his biggest flop, right?
Uh I don't know. I guess so.
I didn't know a great deal about it until you suggested it for the line art.
It's I didn't hear about this probably until a few years ago when probably just falling down a letter box rabbit hole like, "Oh, what's this? I don't know what this is." Oh, do you know what I tell lie. I know when I found out about this movie is when the Joker came out,
right? Yeah.
And
do you know what? It might have been the same for me.

(00:43):
Really?
Maybe.
Cuz I I do remember hearing about all the comparisons.
Yeah. Cuz it was Joker was obviously inspired by the movies of the 70s and the 80s and New York and Scorsese films and Taxi Driver and King of Comedy. And that's what I had heard. And that's when I first heard about it and thought, "Oh, that sounds interesting. Pretty good reviews. Flopped. Must get to that. some point, never did. And I thought, well, this is a good opportunity to I do like to sometimes put on films on lists that we haven't seen that I meant to get to and feel like I should have seen.
It's always a gamble, but it's always interesting.
Yeah, it is. It can be a gamble. I I feel like the kind of the reviews that this got and knowing roughly what the conceit was, I thought there would be enough to talk about in it
and I'm relatively happy with. I I thought the movie was was excellent and I think there's pro potentially a few different areas we could go down and talk about,
but I just I wanted to get this on there because it's a big old flop. It it's our first Scorsesei movie. Is it our first Dairo movie?
I think it might be, you know.
Yeah. Okay. It's our first Jerry Lewis movie.
Yeah, for sure.
It's our first Sandra Burnhart movie.
Yeah.
And uh yeah, like I say, first Scorsese movie and we'll get to other Scorsese films and It's interesting to me that the first one that we've spoken about is a first time watch for both of us. Bit of a blind spot. Wanting to get to it. Why not do it now? Yeah.
Perfect excuse.
It's funny cuz I like you said, I remembered hearing about it when Joker came out and I never really did too much of a dive. It's always been like just one of those films that I was I guess more recently vaguely aware of its existence but never felt any burning desire to to look into it or get hold of it.
And then when you suggested putting it on the lineup. I I went on to letter box and I was like, "Holy f***, everybody loves this goddamn movie.
This definitely needs to be something that gets into our eyeballs stat."
Well, I'm glad that we put it on. I'm glad that we decided to Sorry, I beg your pardon. I'm glad that I decided to put this one on and um put it roughly in the middle of the season in between like the pieces of s*** that are mostly in it season that we love to varying degrees.
It's going to be me apologizing next week, isn't it?
Yeah. Yeah. I expect you to open without apology like I have to do sometimes. Um, next week's your turn. I um I like Scorsesei as a filmmaker. Isn't that controversial opinion that nobody else has?

(01:04):
It's not a hot take.
It's not a hot take. I do like his movies. When he has a movie coming out, I'm excited for it.
Okay.
I I liked The Irishman. Did you watch The Irishman?
No. Because it was 6 years long.
Probably.
Yeah. It was too long. And there was some iffy deaging technology in that.
Oh no. was it took you out on a movie, but apart from that, it was excellent. Really liked it. The last one that we watched was Killers of the Flower and Moon.
Yeah.
Which was great. I really liked that. Again, four years long.
I I do have kind of a hot take.
What?
I I don't I don't go crazy for Scorsesei. Oh, I'm a poet.
Don't go crazy for Scorsesei. Yeah, we should write a song or something about that.
Oh, parody song. Easy for Scorsese. You heard it here first. He's not a filmmaker where I've been sort of rapidly trying to eat up his entire filmography. I'm just like, yeah, he's a really solid good filmmaker. I think he's probably one of the greats. But when I look at his filmography, I'm just like, none of them really set me on fire.
Objectively, you think he's one of the greats. But
I think objectively, he's an excellent filmmaker. He makes objectively excellent films. They're just to my taste.
Okay. It's just not your thing typically.
Yeah. And I know it's a bit of a stereotype cuz it's a lot like um I don't know in the same way that like every man loves The Godfather, that sort of stereotype that the Barbie movie kind of made fun of, lampuned in that way. I kind of feel the same way about Scorsese movies. They're so like bloy.
Yeah.
Which feels really reductive. And I don't necessarily mean it literally cuz I I like a lot of films that would be considered stereotypically bloy films.

(01:25):
So, I can't pinpoint exactly what it is, but I just don't love them. I'm just not into the topics he covers. I thought Killers of the Flower Moon was excellent.
Spoiler alert, really loved The King of Comedy. This was definitely my my speed. Um, I think my favorite is probably, and this is just going back to my horror roots, is Cape Theater.
I knew it. I was going to ask you one of my is just f****** terrifying in that movie.
Counselor,
he scares the s*** out of me in that film.
That was an incredible performance actually.
Which is saying something when you look at his career.
Yeah, I think he's a great actor. Like he's done some incredible work in terms of the 70s, the 80s, the 90s, and then you get into the 2000s and he's kind of moving into more comedy type movies.
He's done some incredible work. And also Meet the f******.
Yeah. He seems less concerned about the types of projects that he's doing
for for all the stuff that I've heard about him in the 70s and the 80s. Certainly taking the craft very very seriously. I want to do loads of takes. I'm going to research the material till I'm till I'm exhausted. And then like you say, he does things like meet the f******.
And he seems to have just chilled in terms of the choices that he makes. And I'm not criticizing that. Like he you've earned it. You've done some stellar work. Just it's not been very interesting what he's done since 2000. I there must be some outliers and obviously he joined um forces again with Scorsese for I say the Irishman and Killers of the Flower Moon and but they feel like kind of outliers in his career for the last 20 30 years.
Has he done much of any weight that isn't with Scorsese in the last dec decade or two?
The last decade. I don't know. Should we have a little Don't do this very often. Let's have a look on letter boxed.
Well, I mean, if nothing else, I want this to be a learning experience. We never come on here and profess to know everything about film. Part of the reason we do this podcast is is not just to talk about our love of films. It's also to learn about them. So, we should maybe do this a bit more often.
Of course, he was in um Joker.
Well, yeah,
I've forgotten about it. Uh right, letter box. Uh Release Order Amsterdam.
Oh god.
Was he? I don't remember him in that.
Well, everybody was in that.

(01:46):
Father of the Bride part three.
What? Oh, this is a this is a YouTube interview thing. Oh, I hate it when they do this. They put these things on there. Yeah.
Take it over with letter box.
The Irishman. Um Joy. Um The Intern. American Hustle. Grudge Match. Oh, that was the one that he did. Stallone where he was doing a boxing on him.
I I'll be honest. Knowing that he's wor with David O' Russell that many times kind of means he's gone down in my estimation.
Um yeah, not much. Not not much that's worth talking about
in that time period. But yeah, but
so definitely less selective as the years have gone on.
Less selective for sure. Yeah. But just had a such a a blowout two or three decades where Yeah, you can kind of do what you want now, mate. I I am a fan of Scorsese movies in general.
Yeah. I think quite a lot of them are my speed. I don't love all of them.
There are some that I do love.
I was going to ask you what your favorite Scorsesei film was.
You would have called it
and I suspected you were going to say Kate F.
Yeah.
I might have said Taxi Driver if I ever remembered that he directed it
cuz for some reason I'm in some sort of Mandela effect where I keep thinking that Paul Schrader did it.
Yeah.
And I don't know why.
Cape Fear is one that I is one I forget that says he directed that feels like an outlier to me.
Yeah. Which I I don't know. Maybe I maybe I'm not a fan of his if my favorite is the one that feels the least like a Scorsese movie.

(02:07):
Well, we recently watched The Wolf of Wall Street cuz you hadn't seen it.
Mhm.
And I love it. I think that's my I think that's my favorite Scorsesei movie. I think it's his funniest movie and it's it's
Do you think it's funnier than King of Comedy?
Uh yeah, I do. Okay.
Yeah. I I really like King of Comedy and it it's funny
but to me Wolf of Wall Street is almost like an absurdist comedy.
Yeah.
And it's it's it's strange because it's obviously based on a real character.
Mhm.
But I don't know. It's just so ludicrous that it just feels like a pure comedy to me, if that makes sense. Whereas this is more in a way king comedy feels more sort of cynical.
Oh yeah.
More difficult to consume for me. As in it's more uncomfortable. The comedy in it is pure cringe.
Yeah, it's it's very cringe, which is it's definitely up my street, but I feel and as well like the the characters uh of Jordan Belelffort obviously real guy in Wolf of Wall Street.
Um yeah, Rich Richard Pipkin in um King of Comedy. They're kind of they're similar to me in
You say Richard?
Richard Popkin.
Robert Popkin.
Rupert Popkin. That was it. Yeah.
Popkin.
Pumpkin.

(02:28):
Popkin.
Pimp soul.
I think somebody does call him Robert Pumpkin at one point though, which made me laugh.
Yeah, they always get his name wrong. I think um but the similarity between Robert Pumpkin and John Belelfford for me is like kind of enjoying watching their characters but hate them. But I feel like I'm more with Richard Pumpkin than I am with Jordan Belf. Yeah, Jordan Belelfford just seemed like an a******.
Yeah.
Whereas the character of Rbert Popkin kind of feels like
I wouldn't go as far as to say he's a sympathetic character, but it just feels like he's somebody with some sort of mental acuity issue,
but he kidnaps someone and threatens to like harm them.
Oh, yeah. He's a criminal, but he's also delusional. He belongs in a facility.
Yeah, absolutely. But but like he goes so far down the criminal route and I'm kind of like but I still kind of rooting for him in a way. I don't have that on Belfoot at all. Hate this guy. I want him to get locked up, but I'm enjoying watching it.
That's why I was sad at the end of The Wolf of Wall Street. I'm like, is that it? Why is he not in a dungeon somewhere for the next 50 years?
Yeah.
Hate that guy.
Um, but I think Wolf of Wall Street is my favorite. Probably Good Fellas after that, which is one of the most watchable films I think that's ever been made.
It's one of those It's one of those films that If I stick it on, I'm in. Like, and I
I almost It took me a long time to get to it as well. And it was one of those movies that got praised, especially Yeah. Teenage Boy. All my mates are like, "Ah, you good fellas. This is great." I was like, "I'm not watching that. You all love it." And I watched it was like, "Yeah, it is great."
Interestingly, I think you sort of hit the nail on the head for me. A lot of his movies feel like teenage boys would have the posters of them in their bedrooms.
Yeah, absolutely.
It's that kind of film,
which sounds like I'm being really derogatory and I don't have an excuse for that. Um, I'm not being derogatory, but I think they're sort of embraced by a certain type of people.
They can be. Yeah.

(02:49):
Not only those type of people,
but the same sort of people who, we've talked about it before, maybe take the wrong message from American Psycho or Fight Club or the Matrix
or the Wolf of Wall Street.
Or the Wolf of Wall Street. Yeah. Idiots, in other words.
And I maybe struggle to sort of separate the two.
Yeah.
They have that association in my mind. Yeah.
So there's there's a stumbling block for me.
I mean, he's definitely that guy, isn't he? He's that filmmaker. You mentioned those movies. You'd add Taxi Driver to that list of
people that might get the wrong message. Oh, he's a hero. Is he though? Um,
don't know about that.
Casino is one that I don't I think it's a good movie, but I don't love it. Um, have you seen The Gangs of New York?
Is that the one with Daniel D Lewis?
Yes.
Yes. Then
and
but not since it came out. Was
Cameron Diaz in that as well.
I don't know. I don't remember. I saw it once when it came out and I've been meaning to get to it again because I quite enjoyed it.
I would rewatch it. I'll give anything a second shot. You know,
slap it on the list then. One that I didn't get through was The Aviator.

(03:10):
Oh, no. I've never seen that. It didn't appeal.
Um, likes The Color of Money. I saw it once, really liked it, and I've been meaning to get to that as well. Um, and Departed. Departed is probably in my top three or four Scorsese movies as well. I do like that. a lot.
And I was that when he started his collaboration with Leonardo DiCaprio cuz he's kind of the new Dairo, isn't he?
Oh, yeah. Yeah. He's Dairo was Scorsese's guy and now it's definitely DiCaprio. Well, kind of both in a way.
I watched um there's a 15minute short on YouTube called The Audition, which I think was a marketing video for some hotel resort, I think in Manila, possibly. And it's got Dairo and DiCaprio in it. And they're playing versions of themselves where they're auditioning for a role with Martin Scorsesei who's also acting in it as himself. It's also got Brad Pitt in it. Yeah. I didn't I didn't I didn't love it.
So, what you're saying is though, you are a Scorsesei fan.
Yeah, I guess I guess so.
I wish I could say the same. I really do.
And it's not for lack of trying, but I don't know. Something about the bulk of his filmography just doesn't really gel with me.
Okay.
All personal preference. M
he's very good at his job. However, King of Comedy very much up my street.
Okay.
I don't think I'd realize that it was a black comedy until we started watching it.
It was funnier than I thought it was going to be.
Yeah.
Like it had laughing
almost in every scene. I would say for various different reasons, whether that was because it was really cringe or there was some just genuinely good good oldfashioned comedy in it. Bit of uh a bit of head shaking or the name wrong like throughout which is something that that keeps happening throughout the film. That's funny too.
And it establishes its tone really early on. I I feel
Yeah, it does. It's Does it open with um
It's Jerry Langford played by Jerry Lewis trying to I think leave the studio and get to his car.

(03:31):
Yeah. Which goes on for ages
and it's very uncomfortable. He's trying to get to the car, make his way through the crowd, and Dairo is just kind kind of imposing himself on him like, "Oh, I'm helping you."
Yeah. He's taking it upon himself to be his security.
Yeah. Yeah. And um who is it? Is it his character's name? Masher, who's played by
Masha? Yeah. Sandra Burnhard.
Sandra Burnernhard. She's in the car. So, you get to meet the three central characters in the first scene.
Mhm.
And she pops in and out of the movie throughout the runtime.
I loved her in this.
I think she was my favorite performance in this.
Unhinged.
Just I It was weird cuz I was expecting Dairo to just knock it out of the park.
Mhm. Which he did.
Which he did. Uh Jerry Lewis, I didn't really know what to expect. I mean, I watched those movies when I was a kid where he like dropped a glass or whatever. It was funny. I don't I don't remember. I remember being on and I liked him when I was four.
I loved The Naughty Professor when I was a kid.
Yeah. I mean, who doesn't love Eddie Murphy?
Oh, you being willfully obtuse again.
But I thought Sandre Burnernhard was the standout performance. in this. I thought she was great.
Just unhinged, unpredictable, funny,
scary, like I just because she was so unpredictable, you just didn't know what she was going to do.
Total Livewire.

(03:52):
And there's there's the scene in which maybe we'll talk about later, but where she's got Jerry Lewis tied to the chair and again that just goes on for ages and just what she's doing and she's starting to take her clothes off and say like why don't we just get on a table and that sort of thing and she you just don't know what she's going to do and it was great. I just I enjoyed heard that so much. I didn't expect for that performance to to stand out in that way, but it's that's a someone I know her face, but I couldn't tell you anything that I've seen her in.
Yeah, I don't know a huge amount about the person. I'll be honest. I know the name Sandra Burnhard. I know she's considered a bit of a legend. She was a comic. I say was is a comic. She kind of became a household name in Roseanne.
Was she in Roseanne? Was she?
She was in Roseanne.
Who was she in? Was she She wasn't Roseanne.
She wasn't Roseanne. No, that was Roseanne.
Was she Jackie or she wasn't John Goodman?
She wasn't John Goodman either.
She wasn't Johnny Gleki.
No anymore.
Kids, what are the kids called?
Sarah Chalk.
Is that the
I don't know if that was Becky one or two. Anyway, look. I think she played her friend.
That's maybe that's where I know her face from because my mom did used to like watching Roseanne when I was a child.
I think most people who know her, particularly in this country, know her off the back of Roseanne. But she she was a standup as well and she's been referenced in stuff that I love like you're the worst.
Um she actually in it Jimmy meets her at one point and then steals the c the cardboard standey of her.
Okay.
And she had zero acting background. She had no formal training. And I think I enjoy her performance in this all the more knowing that almost all of her lines were adlibbed.
Really?
Yeah. Because she because she didn't have that formal training. So She sort of came to an agreement with Scorsesei that she would just basically go off the cuff.

(04:13):
And the scene that you were talking about where she's got Jerry tied to a chair,
a lot of what he was saying was unscripted as well. They were just sort of going back and forth.
Okay.
And that to me is even more impressive.
I wonder why she didn't have more of an acting career. Maybe it's possible she didn't want to.
That's always a possibility.
She was in other stuff. I'm not very well verssed, but
yeah, she was in other stuff. But like if I had seen her in this in 1983, I would have probably expected who this person is going to be going places
huge. She can do whatever she wants because she's brilliant. And I guess the movie did flop and perhaps that's
part of the reason why she didn't, like I say, maybe she didn't want that career. Maybe because it flopped, she didn't get the opportunities that she would have if it was a huge financial success,
which is a shame cuz I think this was her first speaking role ever, was it?
Yeah.
And like coming out of the gate with this really impressive.
Loved it. So, so entertaining, so funny.
Obviously, another principal cast member that we need to talk about is the former Mrs. Dairo, Diane Abbott, who has comparatively few acting credits.
I don't know who she is.
She was um I think did they go to school? Was there a line about them having gone to school together? She worked at the bar.
She was the object of Robert's affections anyway, but they were married at the time when the film was made. I think they married in 76 and she had a really small part in Taxi Driver. So I don't know if I don't know I don't know if they were married already or if they met during the making of or perhaps Dairo secured that role for her.
Yeah,
who knows? But um yeah, she was the first Mrs. Dairo.
Okay.

(04:34):
Of I don't know how many.
Of many.
I don't know. I imagine he's the sort of bloke I imagine he's probably on his fifth or sixth wife by now. Who knows?
Probably. Yeah, it's probably still squeezing out kids like like you know
in his 90s.
Yeah. Okay. Fair enough.
How old is he?
80s something.
He's getting on, isn't he? He's up there. Yeah.
It's Is it his childhood sweetheart? It's I don't know if it is really. It feels like it's someone that he kind of admired from afar.
Yeah. I got the impression that maybe she was somebody who was popular and he had a crush on her or something and never got the guts to to talk to her.
Yeah. It's quite sad, isn't it?
Oh, the whole thing is really sad.
Is is he's is a bit of a pathetic character.
Yeah. Which is why I think he sort of elicits sympathy from me.
I was just thinking that like you sort of feel sorry for him. You're like, "Oh, oh, mate." Okay. He's being really like annoying with the Jerry Lewis uh Jerry Langford character.
Just won't stop trying to
Jerry.
Yeah.
Jerry. Oh, that scene at the beginning.
That first scene where he's trying to get away from him and he keeps trying to get his attention. And Langford's like putting up with a lot. But

(04:55):
and that's it's it's interesting. Because you have that and you're like, "Oh, mate, give it a rest." And then you get that scene with with Dian Abbott's character who's called Rea. And you sort of you're like, "Oh, he's he was unpopular or didn't have confidence and you sort of feel like you say, you sort of feel a bit sorry for him." It sort of goes back and forth for me. Like in what on one scene I'm like
total psycho,
you're an idiot. Like just get me away from this guy. And the next scene kind of like okay, like
it feels quite real. in a way in that you can imagine meeting someone like that.
I think I have met people like this. Less psychotic, but
yeah,
people who just can't read social cues for love nor money.
Yes.
They think they're the most like interesting person in a room but are very sorely mistaken.
Yeah. Just ordinary.
Yeah. But never shut up.
Yeah.
And love to talk about themselves.
And I I sort of love that element of fantasy that's introduced really really quickly
cuz Seriously, he meets Jerry Langford really early on in effectively the first scene of the movie, talks his ear off in the car, keeps yelling to him when he's just trying to get into his building. And do you know what made me that made me laugh so much because it reminds me of what you do?
What What do I do?
Which is, you know, the thing that you love to do when you tell a really bad joke and then you keep laboring it over and and then it sort of stops being funny but then circles back and starts being funny. again
because you just keep sort of doing it. And it sort of reminded me of that which is why it I don't know there's this element of like 50% cringe, 50% hilarity.
Yeah.
And he just it was like, "Oh god, he's calling him again. When is this going to stop?"
It's very uncomfortable.

(05:16):
It's so relentless.
Yeah, it is relentless. It's very uncomfortable. And it's it's a clever scene because it tells you uh lots about both of those characters. Like Richard um Plumpkin is his death desperate to get the attention and become a comedian and he was will do anything and he he would just
he'll just berate Jerry Langford and in kind of a respectful way at the beginning he's trying feels like I don't know if he wants to be respectful but he feels like it's maybe a means to an end
it does feel a little bit deceptive like he sort of you know does him a favor and then worms his way in the car and
yes he's definitely trying to manipulate that situation he saw his opportunity and he's like right this is my shot here to get in the car then but it also tells you about the Bangford character who's who's obviously a big star I guess in this world and he seems like he's kind of a nice guy and will give people the time but also he's met these people hundreds and hundreds of times before and you have that scene later on in the movie when he's walking down the street and again is similar like he'll give people the time and then when they get a bit weird he just sort of starts running away.
Yeah.
Um which was a very funny scene as well.
Um one of the reasons like his character was supposed to have a different name, but one of the reasons they decided to stick with the first name Jerry is because the street scenes um were almost exclusively just civilians, like non actors.
So if anybody stopped him was like, "Hey, Jerry," they it would have f***** up the take.
Okay.
So they just decided to go with calling him Jerry.
Interesting. Yeah, that's um they gave that some thought. I like that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. I think um they do a lot they do well at that first kind of 10 minutes of the movie to establish those characters and then you do move on to the bar where he's trying to impress Rita and you learn more about the backstory of Richard Pumpkin and and you you feel sorry for him and you wonder where it's going to go. But I guess at that point he starts explaining that he's friends with Jerry Langford and and you get the the cut after that. Is it I can't remember if it's before or after that where he's imagining he's in the restaurant with Jerry.
Before
is it?
Yeah. There's that scene where They do introduce it early.
It's for about the first 20 seconds it it just plays out like a normal scene. Yeah.
Because Scorsesei sort of went on record and said he wanted there to be no sort of delineation between reality and fantasy. He wanted to kind of
drop you straight into his world and almost see things from his point of view a lot of the time. And so initially I think I was kind of convinced I was like, "Oh, he's met him. He's giving him a call. They're in a restaurant." Oh, no.

(05:37):
I thought so. Because I like you say, they'd had the meeting in the car. And I did think to myself, this is going a bit too well, isn't it?
Yeah. Ty's being a little bit too enthusiastic.
Yeah. Is this a time jump like a five years or something? And now they've kind of reversed roles like where is this going sort of thing? But yeah, very quickly it's oh no, he's imagining that conversation. And is he in the basement at that point?
Basically, yeah, he's got um an imaginary talk set up in his mom's basement.
I love that. I loved that. I think actually they're my might be my favorite scenes where he's in the
He's so good. I think I think Dairo is never better in this film than during those scenes.
Yeah, because he's on his own. Like he's acting literally against some cardboard.
Yeah. Or shouting to a disembodied voice, who was actually Scorsese's mom, by the way.
Was it really?
Yeah. Scorsese's dad,
Carol. Carol Carol
friend and daughter are all in the film as well.
Oh yeah. I I know. I love the stuff when he's just on his own and you can see well I guess we would call that the real world. You've got the fantasy world, you got the real world. It's hard to know particularly as we get to the final act what's what and maybe we'll we'll talk about that a little bit but I loved it when he's got that whole I wanted to say a podcast setup but this was 30 years before podcast.
That's what it would be now.
Yeah. He would be a podcaster or a YouTuber now, wouldn't he? Cuz they're all insufferable.
Um but he's s he's sitting Yeah, he's got
on his podcast.
Unironically, he's sitting in his tub chair. He's got the the the microphone and he's imagining that he's on a talk show and going, "Oh, yeah, Jerry, you're such a joker." He's having these imaginary conversations in his head. But he's fantastic. And then you get the the mom shouting as well, and he's having that conversation. I'm wondering if the mom's real at this point. Is is the are we are we is this a Norman Bates situation?
I was going to say maybe it's a psycho scenario.
I did wonder that. We never see Do we
Oh, this is this has taken an even darker turn now.

(05:58):
Um, and did this is this where the the phrase, you know, where the what's that phrase where you're like, "Oh, do you live in your mama's basement?" Is a man is a 30-y old man who lives in his mom's basement? Like someone on the internet that's being a rude person or whatever.
I mean,
you just go, "Oh, you live in your mom's basement."
Yeah. Just basement dweller.
Is this the movie that that comes from?
I don't think so.
All right.
I think Well, I don't know. Maybe it is. Maybe it is.
I I can't I don't know. I don't know. I can't name you another film or or something that's before this is before it became a cliche. I don't Is it a thing that happened? Cuz we don't really have basements in the UK, do we? I knew one person that had a basement once and it was great.
But that's the only basement I've ever been in inside a dwelling.
Everybody I know who's got a basement in Canterbury, their basement's flooded.
It's not so much of a thing over here. You're right.
Yeah. You don't want a a basement with a water line in in in Canterbury.
No. That's
asking for trouble. Um, basements. No, I I don't I did wonder when we saw the whole podcast set up in the basement, I did think to myself, oh, is that where that comes from? Maybe, maybe.
Maybe he's the original incel.
Yeah, maybe. It does have that kind of vibe to it, doesn't it, as well?
Well, yes and no, cuz he his dream is to be the next king of comedy. His dream is to get on Jerry Langford's show. which he hopes will springboard his career. But at the same time, I think he's so deluded that he doesn't seem super dissatisfied with his life cuz he's like tricked himself into thinking that his life is better than it is
again. Like what's what was his job?
I don't think he has
specified. I thought he said like I'm a communications in in the first scene with Joe Langford. He said I'm a communications something something really stand. Oh, right. Okay. But isn't there that scene where he's leaving an office

(06:19):
and he says, "Oh, I've got a meeting with Jerry Langford." And they're like, "Oh, what the the Jerry Langford is like winks and leaves."
Right. Yeah. Right.
Could be fantasy, could be made up. Uh it's interesting to to think about what is real and what's not. It could all just be
imagination.
Yeah.
But is he tricking himself into thinking his life is better than he is? It actually is. Maybe.
I think he's he's the definition of like fake it till you make it.
Yeah. Yeah, I I was going to say I'm probably more in that camp. Um when we get to the final act and he does his good for that time period comedy type set.
I was surprised that he was actually funny. I was expecting him to be f****** terrible.
Yeah. Yeah. He is not my sort of humor. Uh it's very dated that sort of that sort of humor. But it feels like it was good in that time period.
I'd rather watch Robert Popkin than Michael McIntyre.
Uh on any given day.
I I mean I watched a lot of Michael McIntyre.
Yeah. You hate watch it.
Yeah. Um
I think he's definitely got delusions of grandeur.
He's got Yeah, he has got delusions of grandeur.
I think a really good example of that is when he's talking to Masha and I think he's sort of taking he takes a letter from her or something and says that he'll get it to Jerry like cuz he you know he's got an inn. And then I don't know if it's that scene or a different one but he gives her a bit of a dressing down and kind of tries to humiliate a little bit
and I'm watching this going, "Mate, you're the same, if not worse."
And that's that's another example of one scene I'm kind of sympathetic to him. And then the next scene I'm like, "Oh, but you are an a******. You're a dick."
And it feels to me like he what other scenario does he feel like he's got the up on someone? He he probably always, whether he displays it or not, feels like he's the underdog in that situation where there's someone that has power over him in almost every scene probably in this movie apart from the scenes where he's with Masha and he probably feels like he's more I can't think of a better phrase more powerful has more power more influence he's pretending that he's got this relationship with Jerry and he expects her to be like oh okay like you you're great and stuff and I thought that was quite interesting to see that that that that the way that he kind of expressed that power dynamic in that relationship and I wondered if that always been the case between those two. It felt like it had.

(06:40):
Yeah, it sort of feels like I mean what we're what we're given anyway, I don't know what happens sort of with these characters before the events of the film, but it seems like she's she's only of interest to him when she's useful.
Yeah. And and and going back to that first scene again when she's in the car and he's leading Jerry to the car, I don't get the impression that they know each other then, but then later in the movie, we found out find out that they do know each other. And not only that, they actually have quite a long history.
Yeah.
And probably been sort of I say mates because he's a s*** to her, but there's they've had a relationship of some sorts for a lot for a long time. And he I feel I get the impression that he feels like he's better than everyone that's seeking the autographs. He feels like he's already that celebrity that's and they're all beneath him.
But I think that's quite true to life though. And I'm I've never been like a member of a fan club or anything like that. But from what I've observed, served, particularly online, and this is largely because I angered a fan base of a specific pop star. And I had rabid teenagers coming after me on Twitter for an entire weekend saying the most unhinged, hurtful s*** you can possibly imagine in the name of somebody who doesn't know that they exist and wouldn't
piss on them if they were on fire.
Yeah.
There is like an unhinged fan culture that we're not wellversed in. But it's it's out there. And I I think this film sort of does represent it quite accurately because there does seem to be a hierarchy as well. Like the the people who sort of give the fan base its name or run the fan club or run the subreddit or or a mod of a specific forum, they feel like they've got more of an in with the celebrity. And
it is very I don't know. This film is sort of preient. I would say this film is super ahead of its time.
I agree. I When we were watching it, obviously it looks like a 1980s movie.
Yeah.
But it it feels very contemporary. It's we haven't really discussed why it flopped, but I I suspect that part of it was just that
it was unusual for the time. It was not an area that was really explored or thought about. Obviously, you had movie stars and comedians and people that were fans of those people and no doubt humans are humans. So, some of them were f****** weirdos. But I feel like now It it's it's way more easy to watch it that film now and go, "Oh, yeah. I I we see these people on online all of the time."
Yeah, it's it's sort of the perfect example of a parasocial relationship. And I don't know when that term was coined. I don't know if that's a more modern thing, but yeah, super super ahead of its time. I was shocked.
Yeah.
I don't think we can blame this film's flopping on ET this time around.
No, given it wasn't released to 83.
That's true. That's true. But yeah, I I think um I think it was mostly that that Fox just didn't 20th Century Fox, I believe, put it out and they just didn't really get it. They were like, "What is this thing? It's a bit weird, isn't it?" And it's a bit it's a bit of a downer. What What is it? So, and I think again that links back to it being a I hate the phrase ahead of its time because it feels a bit like superior complex, but
I know what you mean.
It it really does feel that way. I I feel like if this had come out in if this is come out 10 years ago. I think it maybe would have been maybe not the most successful. Maybe 19 million budget is a is a bit much in 1982 for this sort of movie. It does feel expensive given that there's not really any big set pieces.
Yeah.

(07:01):
Um there's no like huge locations or anything. If it does feel expensive, but I feel like maybe if this had come out 2000 plus, it maybe have been a bit more successful. Certainly.
Oh, no. I think it definitely would. I mean, but
successful. financially speaking cuz obviously people have now appreciated this film for what it is and it's pretty universally loved now I think.
Yeah. Yeah. Massively. Um but I think we we've name checked it once already this podcast but you've only got to look at Joker
and I know that's sort of a different beast because it had the DC name backing it and
200 million.
Yeah. 200 million budget. Um a hack of a director but you know established stars playing a lished characters. People know who the Joker is because there's been an iteration of the Joker on screen for decades.
So, it's it's not I was going to say it's not too hard of a cell, but I guess I guess it is because Joker 2 did abysmally. So, maybe I'm wrong, but I think I think you're right. I think maybe if it had just sort of come out a little bit later, then the audience would have been ready for it.
Yeah, it does. It feels it does feel like it was way too early for that sort of thing. I wonder what they were tapping into. I know this is this was almost based on book. This is one of those that wasn't quite based on book, but it was almost book.
It's fine as long as Elron Hobbit didn't write it.
He did.
Oh, no. Was that one of the 300?
Yeah.
No, it was I think um Paul Zimmerman, I want to say the writer's name was. And he came up with the story for The King of Comedy just based on I think what he'd heard about uh fans trying to get autographs and stuff and also merging that with the kind of the talk show culture and the Johnny Carson,
right?
Because I know that Jerry Langford is very much based on the the Carson type personality, which is not something that really we really have over here. The closest thing that we had was Terry Wogan.
I at that time, yeah, I guess we have it a little bit more now. Like we've got Graeme Norton, I guess.
Yeah, we've had Graham Norton for 35 years.
Yeah.
Showing no signs of slowing down.
We successfully got rid of James Cordon, but now he's back.

(07:22):
Is he?
Apparently, he left Hollywood. I don't know.
No, he Oh, you mean he's back in England?
I think so.
Oh, f***.
Yeah.
Take him back.
We don't want him. We shipped him over there for good reason.
Oh, no.
Yeah. Oh, yeah. I forgot he did that thing. He took over from Craig Ferguson, didn't he? Oh,
what a disaster.
Funny. Like Craig Ferguson's probably probably my favorite version of that talk show type person. And then they go directly from my favorite type talk show type person to James Cordon who's I don't want to talk about James Cordon really. He's got no fans. He's got no one that that's that's that's vying for his signatures all of the time.
No way.
Even with like Peter Rabbit fans cuz he was in that was he the rabbit?
I don't know.
He was in that s***** cats musical.
It was in that s***** cat's musical which I had to watch.
Did you?
Yeah. Seen it. Rubbish.
Is it as bad as everybody says?
Yeah.

(07:43):
Oh no.
You know sometimes when you you're like this is like this has got such a pan in that there's no way it can be as bad as everyone says it. It really is.
Oh god. Horrible. It's terrible. I had to watch it on my last podcast before shooting a hostage.
Was it Was it a stitch up?
It was a stitch up. Yeah.
Oh, terrible.
If you're listening, nice one, Nicole.
Yeah. Um, yeah. Zimmerman had written kind of a story for this and I think had given it to Dairo in the early to mid70s. So, Dairo got his hands on it and it was very much Dairo was interested in this and he had to convin convince Scorsesei to do it.
Okay.
Scorsese wasn't really interested. They'd obviously worked together on on Main Streets and Taxi Driver and eventually they got to making this, but I think it was a reluctant Scorsesei. I don't think he was particularly interested in doing this until they kind of and I want to say maybe eight or 10 years where they were kind of getting their heads together and trying to crack the story.
Okay.
And I think they merged, like I say, the the rabbid fan with the talk show character. And then Dairo, Scorsesei, Zimmerman kind of merged all of their ideas together and came up with the the screenplay for what it ended up being. But Scorsesei very much needed convincing. I don't think he was particularly interested in doing it. And
I wonder why because I did also read that he pretty much had a miserable experience making the film.
Well, he was really sick apparently. I heard.
Yeah, he wasn't well. Um, but also he sort of described the the making of as being really unsettling and unpleasant. didn't he just didn't like it. So maybe maybe that's why he just didn't particularly love the subject matter.
I heard as well that Jerry Lewis didn't have a great time making this.
Okay.
It's interesting that you said earlier that the scenes where he's which I love where he's strapped to the chair
and I love Sandra Burnhard's performance in that but also I think maybe um underrated Jerry Lewis performance in that because he's not saying or doing very much. and he's very stern, straight responses, but it it works in that kind of dynamic. But from what I understand is that Jerry Lewis didn't have the greatest time because he's apparently was used to turning up on set, doing a couple of takes, getting it in the bag, being very knowledgeable about what was going to happen on set.
But apparently the way that Scorsese and Dairo works is that Scorsese is very much let's get the best performance We can Robert Bob cuz they he probably calls him Bob and he probably calls him Marty
and um it's very much uh what's Bob feeling today? What does Bob want to do?

(08:04):
And they will just do like whatever the main character or main performer wants to do to to elicit the best performances. And I think Joe Lewis was frustrated with that because he's just used to turning up on a day doing this and this and this right
whereas he didn't really know what they were going to do. So it's interesting that you say about the ad living thing and I'm sure he's Yeah, perfectly good at doing that sort of thing, but I think it was a frustrating experience from him for for him from what I heard.
Okay. It's just occurred to me, you know, I I wonder if another reason this might have flopped is because
because it is such a an unusual performance for Jerry Lewis.
Like I wonder if his fan base at the time maybe went to see it for him
expecting some sort of zany naughty professor type film and then to be faced with this. I can imagine the disappointment.
It's like if Martin Short was in Silence of Lambs or something.
Yeah, cuz he was a very silly actor, right? He's a very in silly movies. Like I say, I hadn't seen them since I was four years old, but from what I remember, they're just
they're fares. Are they faries? Is that
Yeah. From from memory, again, for me, it's been quite a while, too. But from memory, I feel like he was quite a physical sort of slapsticky comedian.
It It wasn't It wasn't subtle humor by any stretch.
No. And I enjoy that. Like I
Oh, yeah. There's a place for it.
But but but but yeah, there there might be something in that that some people were like, "Oh, Jerry Lewis, uh, one of the top three actors in this. Let's go and watch a Jerry Lewis movie. We haven't seen one of them in a while."
H
Oh, no.
What's this? I feel kind of bad about myself.
Yeah. I feel deeply uncomfortable right now. I wasn't expecting to have emotions.
Yeah, that's that's interesting. Yeah,
maybe. Maybe.
I'd also heard that Sandra Burnt Hard was uh quite keen to do this but was also kind of starruck by Jerry Lewis.

(08:25):
Right.
So some of those scenes where
she hid it well.
Yes. But also she does have that awkwardness like in those scenes the standout scene that she's in I go back to again is where where he was on the chair.
Uh her standout scene and probably my favorite in the movie I I would say
I feel like There is a version of that character that I'm seeing where she's just trying so desperately to impress him and the only way she can get him there is to tie him up onto a chair. She is she aroused? I I don't know. Maybe she is.
I got the impression she was.
I So did I, but I get the impression that she maybe doesn't really know what what she is cuz she's obviously, you know, need needs help. She's not a sane person.
And say he's definitely not her type in real life.
Um, yeah, I I I I reckon that that probably that her being a bit of Star Struck probably did lend itself to the to that performance because I did feel like she was quite awkward in it as as as large as she was and um trying to be dominant in that situation. It felt like it was a false dominance in a way to me.
Well, what whatever whatever it was that elicited It it certainly worked for that character
very much so.
Um, question. Do you think Robert or Masher is the more insane one?
Oh, I I would say Robert.
Yeah.
Yeah. Because we've got no evidence of Masher having conversations with herself and imagining scenarios.
She doesn't seem as delusional as Robert.
She seems like she knows the score, right? Cuz she's a huge fan, but she kind of understands that we're never really going to get through that door
unless we kidnap the guy.
Yeah, exactly. Whereas Robert is like, I I belong on that other side. I'll come hanging around with you cuz I have to right now,
but eventually I'm going to be over there and I'm going to take a s*** on you.

(08:46):
Yeah, but I've met the guy. We're tight.
So, I think without a question, actually, Robert's more delusional than mash.
Yeah. Okay.
What did you get that impression while you're watching it or
I was going back and forth for a while. I think by the end I agree with you.
I think possibly there are scenes where it seems like she's more
Mhm.
um
he's better at pretending that he's got his s*** together.
Yes, absolutely. She she's more uh kind of just large and uh un just has less filter maybe is is the is the word. It feels like he's more calculated in what he's saying and not saying.
Yeah, he seems he seems like maybe a bit of a narcissist. as well, dare I say. Obviously, I don't want to be one of those people that's just like armchair diagnosing fictional characters on the internet, but there definitely seems to be like maybe an element of that.
100%. And and and that ties in perhaps with his desire and desperation to be loved and adored by people. There's that scene where he's performing to the audience. There's like a mural of an audience.
Oh, there's a cardboard cutout of Liza. I remember that. Oh yeah, there's that.
But there's there's that that scene where he's I think I know what you mean.
Pretending to do a set.
There's like a wall.
You don't really hear the set that he's doing. You hear the kind of rhythm
of a monologue, but you don't really hear the details of it.
But there is Yeah, there's like a mural of an audience. I don't know. Is that in his basement? Did he have that made? Is that there?
I think that might be in his head.
Could be in his head. I thought it was actually quite a beautiful shot. And I thought, is that an art gallery? Is that a piece of art? Because I think actually works quite well with it.

(09:07):
And the camera's just sort of slowly panning out.
Yeah. Beautiful shot.
Um, again, is that in his head? I don't know.
I think it's funny, isn't it? Because some people online think all of it is in his head. Some people online think Masha isn't even real. Like, there are some real out there theories about this movie.
I I definitely think a lot of what we see is real,
but I would also say that because a lot of it is from Robert's POV and he's the ultimate unreliable narrator that there's no real way to tell. People do have theories about the ending, which I'll get to cuz I'm quite interested to know what you think as well.
Okay.
But um but yeah, the more I think on it as well. Sorry, just to just to go back a little ways. The more I think about it, the more I think maybe he is like the ultimate insult.
Maybe he is the first insult because he's got this unearned sense of conf confidence, this bizarre sense of entitlement. And there's that scene where he keeps going to Jerry Langford's office to try and to try and talk to him. And when he's told he's not available, he just sits in the lobby for however long. But when he does finally talk to one of Jerry Langford's representatives, she's really nice to him. She seems genuinely interested. She takes the tape off him. She gives it back and says, you know, It's good, but hone it, work on it. She gives him positive but constructive feedback. And instead of taking any of that on board, he's just like, "It's not fair. I'm already good."
Yeah.
Which is such incel behavior
rather than taking anything that's said to him on board. He's just got this delusional sense of self where he's like, "No, I deserve it already. How dare you?"
Yeah. Like you say, that sense of entitlement like uh Langford says in the beginning of the movie, start at the bottom. That's a perfect place to start. And it feels like he just wants to springboard Yeah.
his own kind of career and not do the work
in a way. You're right. Um Shelley Hack plays that character, Kathy Lol. She's a really nice person to him. She's gives him way more time than he deserves.
She's positive. She's like, "Your your timing is great. Your rhythm is great. You just need to work on your jokes a bit more." And he's like, "Oh, like you say, you can't He feels like he's controlling his response to that, but you could get the feeling that underneath it he's kind of raging a bit. Yeah.
He's like, "You don't know what you're talking about, love, do you?" He's got that kind of reaction. And I can sort of see where you're coming from from that incel, that kind of expectation of
I I deserve this thing. I'm owed this thing.
Without doing any of the the preparation and the work and just being a nice human to people and just naturally going with the flow with where things sort of lead.
Yeah. It's just it's the same as like one of these podcast bros
deciding that they are a high value man and they deserve a top 10 attractiveness, high value woman without having to do any of the groundwork

(09:28):
without having to work on being a decent human being like you say or you know honing a personality. It's the same sort of thing.
Yeah. You're owed something. You're owed this success and that's another reason why it feels quite like a modern
yeah
piece in a way. There's lots of
the culture that we live in now in the modern world that you can look at this film and go wow this this this could come out today there you could have if you shoot shoot this on digital and I don't know who do you put in Dairo uh place
these days
yeah
waking Phoenix obviously waking Phoenix
but yeah if it came out it would be like oh yeah this movie was made today and it was conceived today it's f fasating that this is as old this story is as old as it is and it's as relevant as it is now way more relevant now than it was in ' 82.
Yeah. Well, puzzlingly at one point obviously we talked about the fact that it was not the best experience for him. But Scorsesei also said that he thinks he probably shouldn't have made the film, but I couldn't find anything to elaborate on that. So, I'm so curious to know why he feels that way.
Why? Because it's it's an excellent movie. I'm glad he did make it. I can't imagine if he didn't make it. I it wouldn't have got made. It wouldn't exist because D, like I said, Dairo lobbied for it. He got Scorsesei to make it after a year 10 years of of just wearing him down, I guess. So, had it not happened, then I don't know. It would
We wouldn't have Joker.
Yeah, we wouldn't have Joker
if there was no blueprint for that movie.
Yeah.
And I know I keep bringing it up, but I think it's sort of unavoidable because of the comparisons. Um, but I will say it's made me think less of Joker.
What? But in in that it's not as original.
Yeah.
Right. Okay.
Cuz I really really enjoyed that film when it first came out. And now I think having seen this
retroactively I'm like maybe it's not as good as I thought.

(09:49):
I like that movie. I like Joker. Again, it's another one of those movies I think that maybe people take the wrong lessons from. I just thought it was quite entertaining
and I liked it.
But it's so close to this material. It's very close to this to this movie. Yeah. 100%. Again, a performer that wants to
he thinks he's funnier than he is.
Yeah. Um there are genuine moments of comedy in Joker that I find very funny as well and there are moments that are awkward in it like like this movie
and I don't think there was any
there was no secret made of it that this was this film was an inspiration for that.
No, I think Todd Phillips has been very vocal about the fact that he took inspiration from this and Taxi Driver.
I I enjoyed Joker and it's it's one of those movies that I a lot of the people whose opinions I really respect, podcasters, journalists, some of those people hate Joker.
Yeah.
And I I'm kind of like, oh, am I not that I'm incorrect because you like what you like and that's fine.
Yeah. Opinion is opinion,
but part of me is like, do I need to watch it through a different lens? Um, it'd be interesting to revisit that movie for Sure.
Especially having seen this now.
Especially having seen this. Yeah. Maybe make a an exhausting double build, but an interesting one nevertheless.
I don't know. I might jump off a bridge by the end of that.
Yeah.
Too much.
Yeah. I suppose it was inevitable that we were going to bring up Joker really.
Yeah. We sort of have to because obviously the comparison has been made to death, but I think because of that you sort of can't avoid mentioning in the same breath, you know.
Yeah.

(10:10):
We don't want to ignore it anyway. Should we talk about what we think is reality and what we think is fantasy?
I'm fascinated. Yes. Go. Go for it.
So, uh maybe more in relation to the final act of the film where we mentioned a scene earlier where he's repeatedly going to the office and um Cathy is politely asking him to leave and giving him feedback, but he just keeps going and going and going. Eventually, it gets to the point where the security have thrown him out.
Mhm.
And he's not getting back in that building. And it's a very quick escalation. So, right, well, I've got to kidnap him then.
Yeah. We don't even I don't I don't even think there's um any sort of exposition or we don't even see a conversation of them plotting it. It's just like them in the car.
No, that's what I love. It's just that he's wearing a hat and some sunglasses.
But it's such confident film making.
Yeah. And and they pull up next to Jerry Nangford. They open the door and they just shove him in the car and you're like, "Is this happening now? Is it And then he Yeah, he kidnaps him and you find out that it's an elaborate scheme. And maybe something that he's had in his head for a while was like a kind of a a backup plan.
Yeah, I don't know.
Gather maybe.
And I I get the impression mentioning it to Masha would not have taken much cajoling.
Yeah.
She'd been like, "Yeah, all right. On board immediately."
Yeah. And then they kidnap him and then he's his whole plan is for him to get a monologue on his TV show, which he does. Or does he?
Or does Oh, yeah. Exactly. Or or does he? I I think Where do you land on this? Do you think that his final kind of monologue is real? Is it something that's happening in the reality of this movie? Is it all in his head? And if it is, at what point do we start what point is it not real anymore?
So, I've got two things. to say. I think my opinion of whether or not it's real has been swayed by an online breakdown.
Okay. Right.
But I will say I think either is completely earned and I would be happy with either um either outcome.
Yeah.
Because if it's if it's real, if it's reality and he does get the stint on the show and he is really funny, then he's still going to jail afterwards. Obviously, you know, we get that thing where he he does go to jail.

(10:31):
But I think to me that's almost sadder because like I say, he I wasn't expecting him to be funny. I wasn't expecting his delivery to be that polished or anything. So that's almost sadder to me because had he just taken the advice and honed the material a little bit more, he could have achieved the same thing through normal channels. But also on the flip side of that, I think the story that they're telling it sort of makes more sense for it to have been in his head.
Yeah.
Um, and that's backed up, as I say, by a theory online. It's not my theory. I'm not going to lay any claim to it, but there is some discussion of his wardrobe choices throughout the film.
Yeah, I thought about this.
Did you?
Yes. Okay, go on.
Um, so obviously throughout the film, he's kind of he's pretty much always wearing that same suit, isn't he? That awful sort of
It looks cheap. It's Is it like powder blue?
There's definitely some powder blue going on, right?
It's not a nice suit by any stretch. There's some bright red mixed in and blah.
All right. Not today. Don't buy a pair of blue suit.
No. Um, but yeah, he he often wears like vivid colors and sort of weird patterns and stuff. That's kind of his hallmark, but he he never you wouldn't look at him and go, "What a well-dressed gentleman." He stands out a little bit, maybe for the wrong reasons. And then during that scene, he's a lot more well-dressed and his suit matches, but it's sort of way more subdued colors. which a lot of people think is indicative of the fact that he's in jail
wearing a mono color outfit
imagining this whole thing play out
which does make total sense but you said you were thinking about outfit choices as well so I'm curious as to whether you think that plays into it at all
only in that he always stood out with what he was wearing I'll be honest with you I never really had a thought oh that outfit's terrible I just thought that outfit's old that outfit's 70s or whatever it was, whatever era it was. Um, but he was he always kind of stood out as a elaborately dressed person if you you want to say I I I suspect that he
like he was trying to be attention grabbing.
Yeah. But he felt like he was being a sharp dresser and he wanted to stand out and his performance to to the world and and he wanted to get recognized and wanted to stand out. I think that's more what I noticed with it. Um, it didn't really play into my reading on what was real and what wasn't real.
Only in the final scene where he has he is wearing it does feel more his final suit does feel more in keeping with what a comedian of that era might wear.
But it seems weird that he would have been wearing that stuff throughout the movie and then all of a sudden
but be part of me is like is this his Sunday best? Like he's been building up to this moment.

(10:52):
I feel like you can probably read it many different ways. And that's probably a good thing. Like I don't
I always wear my Sunday best when I take hostages.
Do you?
I do. Yeah.
So costumeuming aside, what do you think of the ending in terms of is it fantasy or reality?
I I don't think that there is a definitive answer.
I I kind of like that it's framed in a way that we are supposed to be kept guessing.
Yeah. I think my initial instinct is to go I it's fantasy because we're taught earlier on in the movie that he He does have um delusions. He
is a total fantasist.
He is talking to himself. It like there's lots of things that we're going to see that aren't happening in a movie. So, it's a 50/50 shot whether or not this final scene is uh this final act is in his head or not.
It also goes really well. So, part of me is like, well, Cathy said that your material you had the right rhythm and and the right beats, but your material wasn't quite there.
So,
why is it now that your material all of a sudden is amazing? If feels like it kind of goes a bit too well for it to be real. That's kind of how he imagines it will go. Like I'm this amazing comedian and everyone's going to be
um laughing at all of my jokes.
I was shocked at that point. I was expecting it to go horribly.
We I don't think we ever see the audience.
No, in that we hear them.
We hear them. Yeah, we do hear them. But but part of me is like
that must be intentional. We don't
don't see any audience reaction shots. So,
is that really happening?

(11:13):
But then equally to to to me as well. I enjoyed the cynical ending. Like, yeah, if you take someone hostage and you get yourself on a TV show and you're funny, probably will be famous.
And I like that ending, too. I think either way, it's interesting.
I wonder if part of Scorsesei saying that he feels like it's a film he should never have made is because people who did watch it at the time took the ending a bit literally. In the same way, again, to talk about the comparison, in the same way that a lot of the wrong people embraced Joker. for the worst reasons.
Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. All you got to do is take Jerry Lewis
Hostage,
you get a monologue on a talk show
and do what, like three or four years in Clink.
Instant fame
and then you're famous.
Then you write a bestselling book.
It's It's not easier to just be go on the standup circuit for a few years, hand out some flyers in New York.
Probably take about the same length of time.
Yeah. Right.
And you wouldn't be in jail.
What was his resistance to doing that? Cuz everyone's like, "Just go to the clubs and we'll come and see you at the clubs." He's like, "Nah, I'm not doing that. I feel like that's easier than what you're doing though.
Yeah.
I don't know. It's weird, isn't it? It can't be a confidence thing because he has that scene at the end of the movie,
but again, maybe it's not real.
Maybe maybe he wants to do this thing in his head. He, you know, I would love to be a comedian, but doesn't really have the stones to go up and and get good at failing before he's actually good.
Yeah.
He's not going to have a chance to hone his craft. So, again, that does lend it to possibly being in his head.

(11:34):
Um, Not to sort of go backwards, we just reviewed The Amateur before recording this and we're talking about Rachel Broahan.
Yeah.
And I've been watching The Marvelous Mrs. Masel. Um, it's funny because there's there's a an episode where she does really badly and everybody's just like, you have to bomb to get good.
I've heard that a lot from comedians,
like you have to. It's sort of an integral part of the the thing. And I think Rbert Popkins ego is so fragile that he wouldn't be able to take bombing.
Yeah.
So, I I think that's I think that's an interesting take. Yeah.
Yeah. Like we say, they're all everyone's saying to him, you need to go and do these gigs, but I don't think he's got the confidence to do that. He just wants
the coonies.
Yeah. He But he wants the quick fix. He wants the instant fame. And that's another reason why it kind of feels I'll just make a TikTok and I'll be Matt Rfe.
Yeah.
Yeah. Won't you kill yourself?
Too controversial? I don't think so.
Maybe. Maybe. from Matt Rfe. It's the least funniest person I've ever seen, I think.
And he looks like handsome Squidward.
Is he handsome?
No. But no, this handsome Squidward.
Okay. The guy the guy from um Spongebob Squarepants. Yeah. Okay.
Before we wrap up,
y
what are do you do you have a favorite scene or set piece

(11:55):
or line?
I love the stuff with Masha and and I love the bit where she's just got very strapped to the chair and we've spoken about it at length so I'm not going to talk about it too much more but that was the point in the movie where I was like anything can happen now
and I'm really enjoying this
and all of the stuff with Dairo where he's on his own in the basement.
Yeah,
loved all of that.
So I've got a couple of favorite moments that are different.
Okay, good.
Um I for for cringe value more than anything else. I really enjoyed the part where Robert and Rita effectively break into Jerry's home. while he's off playing tennis or golf or something.
Oh yeah, I've forgotten about that.
And just some of the interactions with Jerry's staff I found really really funny.
And also I think when he's on the street and some woman is trying to get him to talk to whoever she's talking to on the phone and he declines and then yells really costically, "I hope you get cancer."
That was very funny.
It has got a lot of really really great moments.
Yeah.
And I'm super glad you How is it?
Oh, good. Good. It was a bit of a gamble like we said, but um I'm really glad that we've seen it now. It's definitely like a hole that I feel like we've filled.
It does fit in this season in that it obviously was a flop.
At the same time, it feels like a bit of an outlier because it's a good movie
and universally liked as well.
Yeah.

(12:16):
It's not even like The Thing, which is, you know, we started off with an objectively good movie, but I wouldn't say everybody in the world loves that movie, but I mean, But if you look at letter boxed, everyone loves King of Comedy.
Okay. Yeah.
I was I was surprised and I like I say, I feel like I should have got to it way sooner.
Yeah. Sometimes it works though. Sometimes you you just don't watch a movie for a long time and you watch it and you go, that was a really good movie.
Sometimes I'm glad when it happens because I'm like, ah,
I'm getting to see a really good old movie. And it's unusual that that happens for me.
I had the same experience with um thief.
Yeah. Yeah, that's a good shout actually. Sometimes also a film can be so universally praised and
Oh, you feel like it could never live up to the expectations of
I've never seen Raging Ball.
Have you not?
No,
even I've seen that.
And that's something I feel like I should get to
definitely because obviously spoken about Scorsesei and his work and love him as a filmmaker and that's a huge blind spot for me. But
again, it's something that I think my dad loved it and and it's it's something that I just don't know if it's ever going to live up to what everyone says. I'm afraid that I'm gonna watch it and go, "Yeah, it's all right."
Yeah,
I'm sure I won't because, you know, it's meant to objectively be a fantastic movie. But, you know, we all have our blind spots, but maybe we'll do a boxing season.
You just want to watch Creed again.
We can We do eight episodes, don't we? So, we're going to have all five Rockies and we're going to have all three Creeds. No way. No.
Do a bonus raging ball.

(12:37):
No.
So, what um what we got coming up next then? Cuz I believe that the the next episode is back to you, isn't it? Why are you huffing? It's your choice.
No, I know. I'm I'm I'm not huffing in disappointment. I'm huffing because I'm almost too embarrassed to say.
Yeah. We watched a good movie this week.
Yeah.
So, we're going to balance the scales, aren't we?
So, next week I've decided that we're going to cover Tank Girl,
which is one of, but not the worst comic book adaptation.
Is it based on book?
Yeah,
based on comic.
Tango was a comic character. Yeah.
Oh, okay. At least there'll be something for me to research then.
Yeah, good comics. Really good comics.
Better than the film.
And I Yeah, of course. Not hard,
is it? Um, and I believe Tank Girl has been around longer than Harley Quinn. So, I dare say so. Yeah. Well, the the what when did the comics come out?
Oh, I don't know. This is a conversation for next week.
Yeah. Okay. Well, okay. I just wondered why you brought up the Harley Quinn thing, but
Well, I dare say that Tank Girl's been more influential than people realize.
Okay. Yeah. Okay. I see where you're going with this. Let's put a pen in her.

(12:58):
Yeah.