Storytelling, Dramaturgy & Criticism With Aisha Josiah

Today’s guest is multi-disciplinary writer, producer and dramaturg Aisha Josiah, from London. She is an award-winning playwright and screenwriter who has also written for publications such as Media Diversified, The Upcoming, and Mouthlondon. She has served as the editor of the independent theatre blog Fringebiscuit since 2014.

 

In this conversation, we dive inside Aisha’s nomadic and multicultural upbringing, her passion for exploring postcolonial narratives, and the art of dramaturgy and criticism.

 

Side by Side Episodes | Robert Kuang Home

Episode Transcript

Robert Kuang (00:04):
Welcome to side by side, a podcast where I Robert Kuang take you
inside conversations with artists,creatives, healers and warriors taking the
charge in their transformational story.Today's guest is multidisciplinary writer,
producer and dramaturg. Aisha Josiah fromLondon. She is an award winning playwright

(00:27):
and screenwriter who has also written forpublications such as media diversified,
the upcoming and mouth London. She hasserved as the editor of the independent
theater blog fringe biscuit Since 2014 inthis conversation, we dive inside Aysha,
nomadic and multicultural upbringing, herpassion for exploring post colonial

(00:48):
narratives and the art of dramaturgy andcriticism. You can find more side by side
episodes at sidebysidepodcast.podbean.com, and if you're working
on a purpose driven writing project, I'veopened up a few one on one coaching spots
this season. You can learn more or book adiscovery call at www.RobertKuanghome.com.

(01:16):
You know, when we were at NYU, both of us,I don't know how much we had time to,
like, actually talk to each other and holdconversations. But, you know, I'm talking
with Ayesha today, and we were formerlyclassmates, but it was one of those things
we were in you were in undergrad, I was ingrad, and you were like, you're always,
you're like, a busy bee. So I think wejust, like, never crossed paths when we

(01:40):
were at school, but I'm really thrilledthat we're able to, like, catch up now,
you know, years later. So thank you forsaying yes to this. Aisha,

Aisha Josiah (01:48):
this was this. I mean, absolutely. And, yeah, I feel the busy bee
part has not changed. Yes, I do rememberus bumping into each other occasionally,
and being like, Oh, hey, you're reallycool. And then invariably, being like, Oh,
I've got three shows on. Bye.

Robert Kuang (02:07):
Right, have to write 20 pages in Friday, or whatever it is, right?
Yeah, those were the days. But you know,you're someone who's interesting because
I, you know, I moved from China to NewYork, and I'm now on the West Coast now,
and you're someone who grew up liketraveling a lot. Is that correct? Yes.

Aisha Josiah (02:27):
So my my parents moved around quite a bit when I was young. So I
was actually born in New York, and then wemoved over to the West Coast, to
Washington for a little bit, and then whenI was about nine or so, we moved to
London, sort of permanently. I sort ofgrew up in London for like, the first half

(02:48):
of my sort of childhood. When I, I guess,left secondary school, I went to NYU. I
still call that my childhood, but I guessI was technically an adult, but I was, I
was an adult in name only, yeah, and sothat kind of really had a great effect on,

(03:10):
you know, the direction that my careerwent in and things. And then after I did
my bachelor's at NYU, I went back to theUK to do a post grad in Scotland. So I've
always gone back and forth.

Robert Kuang (03:23):
I was going to ask if you have any Scottish heritage, because
there's a part of you that I see is like,I think allyship comes naturally to you in
addition to just being your own advocate.So like, I can see how much your
experiences have informed you in many waysin your work. How did traveling and seeing
different parts of the world? Which is,you know, some people have that
experience. Some people don't. How do youthink that, like, actually influence the

(03:45):
way you think about things, that made yousee things maybe a little differently,
sometimes from your peers?

Aisha Josiah (03:51):
Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. I mean, in terms of heritage, I
do, on my mom's side, have Irish heritage,so, okay, yeah, my mom's really into
genealogy. And so we've worked our wayback to Lydia Vaughan in Cork, which is
really, really interesting to me, but interms of traveling around, honestly, what

(04:15):
I remember most about sort of when I wasyounger was really desperately wanting to
fit in. And so ironically, what happens isthat I would try and take on the accent of
wherever I was so that no one knew that Iwasn't from there. And then at some point,
I don't know what happened, some sort ofFreaky Friday thing where my accent would
always be the wrong one for the place thatwe were in.

Robert Kuang (04:39):
I know, like those things where you can, you actually do hold
multiple accents for some people, and youcan kind of switch, and that's like,
people are like, what?

Aisha Josiah (04:48):
Yeah, and so I got to a point when I was, like a teenager, where
for some reason my accent would, like, lagbehind. And so it always be like, you
know, one country too late. And so. Sothat was, I mean, for me, I was very much
an introvert, and so that was actuallyquite challenging. And I went through a
period when I was very quiet, not quitelike, officially mute, but I think I felt

(05:11):
like I wasn't quite sure what accent wouldcome out. And so it was just kind of like,
Oh, I feel really insecure about my voice,and now it's just something that I quite,
you know, love, and you have differentvoices when you're in, you know, having
different emotions, or when you're arounddifferent people. And when my family and I
get together, we we have a range ofaccents just sound like a sort of mini un

(05:34):
together, you know, we've been all overthe place. Yeah, it's just it, I think, in
terms of how I write and how I approachart, it's been very useful to have a
grounding in different traditions and tosort of not be, I guess, not entirely sort
of secure in this is how things are done.Because for me, it's always been like, Oh,

(06:00):
this is how things are done over here.There's never been like a set normal for
me. I think that in terms of the way Ithink about ideas, it's always relational.
It's always kind of, you know, what arethe time? What is the set of circumstances
that has led to this? Knowing that thesecircumstances are, all you know,

(06:20):
arbitrary. They can be changed. And, youknow, you can have a completely different
set of events happening. That's kind ofhow I think about characters. That's how I
think about, like, you know, dramaticsituations, you know, yeah. And I found
that, you know, I'm, I quite like, thatflexibility of thought, yeah.

Robert Kuang (06:37):
Yeah, I think for a lot of people who have grown up, kind of moving
around and just seeing a lot of differentparts of the world, there's a certain way
they engage with, how they see, you know,characteristics, behavior, and the way
that people make meaning inside ofrelationships. And just to go back to
like, you know, the accent thing, Iremember one of some of my earliest

(06:58):
memories was just like a lot of peoplethink, like, my way or the highway, or
like, this is the way it's done, this theway it's not done. But if you traverse
across multiple cultures, like, I cannottell you how many times it was like,
totally fine in one circumstance andanother one is like, Oh, you're being rude
right now. Like, slurping food, and I waslike, That's a compliment where I'm from,
and et cetera, et cetera. And just likethings you were not intending to do and

(07:23):
you just didn't understand the context. Ithink those moments really informed a lot
of, yeah, probably a lot of why I wantedto write to kind of like, bring up these
things of like, oh yeah, this is kind ofuncomfortable. And like, I don't think
anyone else picked up on it, and thingslike that, right? So I always was like,
perspectives are always changing, ratherthan being that rigidity in my upbringing.

Aisha Josiah (07:44):
It's so funny, I think, particularly in this, like political
climate, where you have people who sort ofseem nostalgic for, like, a certain type
of past, or, you know, the sad things usedto be. And I find that line of thinking so
interesting, because, you know, as someonewho's traveled around, I've never had a
sense that this place belonged to me, andI was sort of guaranteed for it to like

(08:08):
and feel a certain way, you know. Sothat's an interesting thought. That's kind
of like, Wow, you really feel like thisplace is yours, you know. But I think
also, as a visitor to a place you are soaware of what makes it unique in a way
that I think, yeah, many people sort ofoverlook. So I know, when I, when I, you

(08:30):
know, first went to London, you would heara lot of people say, Well, I mean, English
people don't have like, culture, you know.And I'm like, What are you talking about?
Like, you know, I can, I can recognize,like, this is a person from England, like,
immediately in a conversation, right?Because there are so many different things
that identify you and you know. But whenyou know, at school, you would have these

(08:53):
sort of, like, you know, cultural dayswhere everyone's coming in with their
like, you know, special clothes and stuff.And people would say, I just, I just have
a football kit. We don't have anything.And you're like, No, you don't see it
because you're in it, right? But if you'renot in it, then, of course, you see it.
It's there. It's just as beautiful as thenext one. But it's, I find that something,

(09:17):
you know, I see that in the States a lotas well. You know, where it's kind of like
what it means to be American is, you know,litigated. And there's this

Robert Kuang (09:25):
over and over again.

Aisha Josiah (09:26):
Yeah, exactly. And there's this idea that, like, the norm is kind of
an absence of something, you know, andthat's completely just bizarre to me. It's
so rich and full of its own thing, youknow.

Robert Kuang (09:40):
I've also heard that London and New York are share similarities, or
like, if people have gone to both, thereare similar vibes, like the things that
make them kind of challenging for people,but also kind of the big city opportunity
vibe, surrounded by people who are tryingto find opportunity. Do you find that to
be true?

Aisha Josiah (09:58):
I think London and New York. Are very similar in different ways. I
would say New York definitely has more ofa audacious, ambitious kind of atmosphere
to it. I think I feel it as soon as I, youknow, come off the plane. Everyone,
everyone's like, you know, everyone'sstressed. I remember I once told an ex

(10:20):
partner of mine, like, you know, we werevisiting, we were visiting New York for
the first time, and he said three thingswill happen, without fail. And I can't,
like, I don't know why, but this is whatwill happen. You will smell something very
bad. What it is, we don't know. We don'tcare to know. You will hear someone curse
for no apparent reason, very close to you,and something will be on fire again. I

(10:41):
don't know why. It will be on fire. Itwill just be on fire. And we touched down
at JFK, and within like five minutes ofleaving the airport, all three had been
like, had come true. And I was like, Yeah,I like that. I know this city that you
know, it feels like, Yep, we're back.Yeah, you know, but I think part of that

(11:02):
sort of chaotic energy is what makes itsuch a lovely crucible for work, because
there isn't this sort of downtime. There'salways something to wrestle with, and it
can be overwhelming. I mean, I'm based inEdinburgh now, partly because I like
having the option of opting out of thatsort of 24/7 culture, because I immerse

(11:25):
myself in it so much that eventually Ihave to, sort of like parent myself and be
like, You know what? I think you're you'retired, and you're exhausted, and you need
to leave and go and see trees and thing,
yeah, or something. You know,

Robert Kuang (11:40):
time to go look at the Moors, or go upstate New York or
something,

Aisha Josiah (11:44):
because otherwise the brain doesn't switch off. And you know, it's,
it's sort of a double edged sword in that,in that sense, I love it, but, you know,
for my own well being, I think thoseperiods of absence are necessary. Yeah, in
terms of London, I would say a bigdifference for me is that what we would

(12:07):
consider, I think, in New York sometimes,I think it feels like it's considered,
sort of like high culture, in a way thatis a little uncomfortable for me, things
like going to the theater, going to Themuseums, having intellectual sort of
conversations and stuff.

Robert Kuang (12:23):
oh, it's actually seen as more, like, everyday

Aisha Josiah (12:25):
Exactly, a lot more grounded, you know, like, it's not, it's
not a going to a gallery is not just for adate, you know. I mean, going to a gallery
is like, you know, because you actuallywant to go and see what's going on and
keep up with it and stuff. And not in away that's kind of like, I'm going to tell
everyone else that I'm doing this too. Butjust, you know, you know, because it's
infused, I would say Paris is even moreso, okay, yeah, Paris is even more in that

(12:49):
direction. But London, I think one of thethings that I cherish about it is that
theater, for example, still feels veryaccessible. We are moving towards the
Broadway model of ridiculous ticket pricesand stuff. But this is something new for
London, and hopefully something thatdoesn't take off too well. I think that is

(13:10):
something that they share, in a way, but Ithink in some ways, I feel like American
culture and New York culture can feel alittle a little stratified, you know, some
people do this, some people do that

Robert Kuang (13:25):
yeah, people are sorted, yeah, right, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah. I can. I can totally see that. AndI've also heard from other artists who've
particularly worked in Europe, throughoutEurope, they're like, Oh, the arts and
culture scene is seen and perceived verydifferently. It's a lot more normal. It's
a lot more like part of the everydaycomfort for communities, in a way that

(13:49):
here it's like, a little more specialized,or like, it's like, it's for artists to
go. And I'm like, no anyone can.

Aisha Josiah (13:55):
anyone can go, Yeah, I think it's, you know, the same sort of feeling
of people still dressing up to go out toBroadway, you know. And my, my real goal,
I think if I, if I was a theater guard orsomething, would be, like, you can go to
Broadway in your PJs, you know, like, it'sit, this is a conversation. And in fact,

(14:15):
like, I don't want the tickets to be, youknow, $500 because I want you to come and
see this show like five or six times sothat you can really have a conversation
with it, right? Do you agree with it? Doyou disagree? I mean, one of my, one of my
absolute fantasies, would be like, we goback to, like the 1800's or something, and
if you don't like it, you tear up theseats and you know, like, shame on you

Robert Kuang (14:38):
bring back, like, grunge theater.

Aisha Josiah (14:41):
How dare you suggest that Nora might leave her husband, like, let me
just go and destroy this theater a littlebit, because I'm so

Robert Kuang (14:50):
Really get that immersed audience.

Aisha Josiah (14:52):
You know, they've been listening. You know.

Robert Kuang (14:56):
You know what we struggle with so much disengagement. But partially,
it's kind of like. Like, you know, the waywe think of sharing art and offering it as
well. I think that's very much true. Andyou know, you're a writer, artist, a
producer, editor, dramaturg. Do youremember when you first, um, started
writing?

Aisha Josiah (15:14):
Oh, that's a great question. So I kind of because I actually started
off figure skating. I started figureskating when I was about five, and so that
was my, my first love. And you know, Ikept that up until I was about 17, and
when I stopped figure skating, because Imade a conscious choice, you know, I was

(15:38):
getting to the time of, like, applying foruniversities. And I sort of, you know,
really, sort of sat myself down and waslike, Well, you could sort of pursue this
thing, but there, to my mind, there wereso many potential pitfalls. You know, you
break your leg, you're out for a season.You know, you you have a career ending
injury. At the time, I was part of asynchronized skating team. And so, yeah,

(16:05):
always, you know, very extensivescheduling. And you know, you're going all
around, yeah, and stuff. Loved it, butalso there's no time to sort of, you know,
engage in, like going to university andthings like that. That's something that
you have to choose one or the other. Andso I said, like, Well, I think I want to
go to uni. I think I want to, you know,have a, not quite a backup plan, but just

(16:29):
feel like I'm skilled in other things.When that, when that sort of, like,
decision was made, I realized I don't knowwhat I do outside of figure skating. Like,
what do I do? And so I started writing,doing a bit of writing, and I also got
into just taking on different internships.Yeah, you know, I had discovered I was, I

(16:52):
was quite the annoying rebel in that Irebelled at school, but I also, like, made
sure I had good grades. You know, therewas, like, I don't want to go to class,
but also I will pass this test, because Ifeel like it's kind of important.

Robert Kuang (17:05):
She said, I don't always accept authority, but not because I'm
dumb. Yes, I am very smart. And

Aisha Josiah (17:11):
so I was like, the absolute worst person, because they're like, what
you know, if you don't go to class, thisis what will happen. I was like, Well, I
don't know if that's true, because I seemto be doing fine, actually, not going. So
when I cut class, when I would sort ofjust go and do my own thing I was going to
do, like internships, like the BBC andstuff like, it really was like, that's the

(17:33):
worst kind of, like, rebellious.

Robert Kuang (17:35):
That's such a distinct personality

Aisha Josiah (17:38):
I can't go to class today because I'm actually, you know, doing, you
know, interviews for internships,actually. So, you know, I think that
that's just more important.

Robert Kuang (17:47):
During that time you had already, kind of, like, stopped focusing
on synchronized skating. Yeah, yeah.

Aisha Josiah (17:51):
Like, I so, to put in perspective, for the best part of like, 10
years or so, I would wake up at 4am go,you know, skating, go to school, go
skating, do my homework, go to sleep kindof thing. And that was, you know, it's a
full time job, even though it's a hobby,yeah. And, you know, competing in that

(18:13):
sort of environment, you kind of need todo that once you decide you're not
competing. I mean, that's like, a good3040, hour chunk of the week that's like,
been opened up to you. And so I just foundmyself really just at a loss. Like, what
do you do with all this time, you know?And it was, it was quite difficult, to be
honest. I, you know, you just sort oflike, I felt very lost. And so I think I

(18:37):
just counted that eventually with jumpinginto things and just saying yes to
different opportunities. And so that gotme into film and TV. That got me into
theater. You know, I ended up joining theyoung friends of the Almeida, which was a
lovely theater group that had internshipsfor writing and directing and things. And

(18:58):
it was associated with the Almeida theaterthat was run by Michael Attenborough at
the time, he was just lovely, DavidAttenborough's brother, I believe brother,
okay. I was like, Wait, yes, of theattenboroughs, yeah, I think Brother or
uncle. I was like, That Attenborough,exactly. And so just really, really like,
great program. Yeah. You know, it was at atime when there was a lot of funding, you

(19:23):
know, there was a labor government, andthey were really investing in communities
and stuff. So we had things like summerUniversity and stuff. It was, it was
lovely. And through that, I was able tosort of get my first look at the Edinburgh
Fringe. I went up as sort of a productionassistant, and I got my my internships,

(19:44):
channel four and the BBC. And, you know,that introduced me to screenwriting, and
then that enabled me to sort of write ascript that got picked up for, oh my gosh,
what was it? The North London Film. Fund,North London Film fund award, and that
eventually got me into NYU. So it wasjust, yeah, it was kind of one of these

(20:08):
things that was very round about. And theirony is that both of my parents had gone
to and worked at NYU in variouscapacities, and they always joked that it
would have been much cheaper if I had,like, just made it known that I wanted to
go to NYU, because then they just keptsome sort of connection there or
something.

Robert Kuang (20:29):
Are your parents, like, academic types?

Aisha Josiah (20:31):
Not really. My mom's a teacher, and my dad works for the Met
Police and so, yeah, it's just to be fair,my mom's parents are both artists, and
they, you know, so there's, there's thatkind of history there my dad's side, I
would say they're more sort ofentrepreneurs like bakery and my dad is

(20:55):
originally from Antigua, so yeah, his hisfamily sort of moved half to London and
half to New York.

Robert Kuang (21:03):
Okay, so that's how that happened. Roots, okay, yeah. I mean, to
say it was an interesting life would be anunderstatement. But a lot of it was just
also out of your own, like, internalengine. You know?

Aisha Josiah (21:15):
Exactly, I think if there's anything that I've I've gotten, I think in
hindsight, you know, I see that I'vegotten from my parents is just a sort of
sense of, like, quiet adventure, becausethey were both quite young when they
decided to, you know, make these hugemoves. And I'm sure they didn't have a
plan, you know. And so I kind of likemaking big decisions, not in a sort of

(21:40):
reckless way necessarily, but in a sort ofway that, you know, you have a lot of
faith in yourself, and you say, I'm surethat I will be able to manage whatever
difficulties come along with thisdecision. So let's go and do it and see
what happens. And that's yeah, kind of,you know what I like to do, just be bold

(22:02):
about it.

Robert Kuang (22:02):
Yeah, be bold about making a decision. Exactly, yeah, which, you know,
honestly, it's very human for people totry to avoid making these big decisions
where there might be consequences. But,you know, on the other side of it also
takes, you know, the courage it took, yes,that ultimately got you to New York and
all these opportunities. Every one of themwas sort of like a choice that you had to
make with a little bit of

Aisha Josiah (22:23):
courage. So, yeah, it's funny you say that because I remember,
shortly before coming to NYU forundergrad, I was speaking with a friend
who had recently gotten into, I think,Cambridge or something, for physics, and
he sort of said, okay, but like, what'syour plan B, like, if it doesn't work out,
and it really had not occurred to me thatplan B was, like, a thing, and so I was

(22:48):
kind of like, oh, well, I don't know. Imean, this is, this is the plan as much as
it, you know? I mean, I guess if itdoesn't work out, I'll just do something
completely different. I don't know. Like,

Robert Kuang (22:58):
go back to synchronized

Aisha Josiah (23:01):
to me, I was like, I'll do it until, you know, I've run it to its
course and, you know, and generally, forme, that just means I'm tired of it, you
know, I don't want to do it anymore,right? But it never occurred to me, like,
you know, you get to a point of like, thishas failed. I need to have a backup plan,
you know.

Robert Kuang (23:18):
And you don't, you don't seem like the person to, like, suffer
through it either. I mean, you do itbecause you still it's enjoy, enjoyable to
kind of, like, commit to something andlike, go all in, yeah, not for everyone.
But I think that there's, like, anartistic spirit of, like, we'll have to
fight for this thing. You know what Imean?

Aisha Josiah (23:37):
I mean the way I interpret it is, like, I call it a type of delusion.
Like, I think I'm slightly delusional,which I'm happy to be, you know. Like, I
think, if that is what means that I canmake decisions that are irrational to like
the the bystander looking in, but makecomplete sense to me, then that's okay,

(23:58):
you know. And I think the people that Iadmire most in this industry, and just
generally, are ones for whom they are.What's it? They are the measure of their
own success. They are the measure of theirown happiness. They operate outside of,
you know, social norms and contexts andstuff. It doesn't mean sort of like a

(24:18):
solipsistic kind of existence. I don'tthink you know, like, let's just ignore
everyone else on the planet, but I thinkthat running after a type of success is so
draining and unfulfilling. And at the endof it, you sort of, what do you have? You
know, it feels like something that canalways be taken away. But when you are

(24:40):
sort of feeling like you are exactly whereyou should be doing the thing that's
completely fulfilling to you in thismoment, there's something so nice about
not feeling like you like. What more wouldI want? I don't want anything else I'm
doing the thing, you know, right? Yeah.And so I just try and go from. Moment to

(25:00):
moment like that, you know, yeah, if Ijust, what more? What more could I want
from that? You know, maybe I, maybe I findit easy to do that, though, because, like,
I, I'm the delusion is, like, I'm justvery optimistic and probably, like, about
my ideas. I'm like, yeah, what could gowrong? Let me just go and check out this

(25:20):
volcano, and you're like, oh, many things,many.

Robert Kuang (25:26):
Oh, that's so funny. Or you're like, well, sometimes you're like,
I check in with people, and they're like,Are you sure?

Aisha Josiah (25:34):
Okay, I frequently, I've just gone on trips. I'm like, you know, my
mom will be like, where are you staying?I'm like, I don't know yet. She says as
she gets on the plane,

Robert Kuang (25:42):
right, right. Hey, I get it. Yeah, I see that. I see that for you. And
you also do, like your focus, and I think,like your personal mission is very clear
for anybody. But you also kind of can dodifferent types of roles depending on the
project, right? And one thing you do talkabout is dramaturgy, and I've been, sadly,

(26:06):
I was once like a dramaturgical, nothater, per se, but I was like, what is
what is it? Right? And over the past, like10 years or so, we've seen so many films
and projects where it just feels like theproduction itself is entirely
transactional, and the end result doesn'tmake much quite make much sense. So there

(26:26):
comes a moment where I was like, Oh yeah,there was no dramaturgical support or or
any sort of care that goes into actuallywrapping together all the everybody's
work, yeah, in a cohesive way. So I waswondering, if you could talk about what
dramaturgy is, what that can look likeinside of like a collaboration or a
project, and just like your personalexperience with it.

Aisha Josiah (26:49):
Of course, I mean, dramaturgy is such an interesting, still
kind of nebulous thing. And maybe that'smaybe that's always a part of it. I
remember when I, you know, started mycourse in dramaturgy at Glasgow
University, really, you know, it felt likethe first semester was large. Like, what
is dramaturgy? What is a dramaturg Youknow, honestly, it never really felt like

(27:13):
there was a definitive answer. You know,no matter how many textbooks you went
through and like, you know, you sort oflike, start with the handbook of
dramaturgy, the history of dramaturgy,and, you know, the sort of German
underpinnings of it and everything sort ofkind of makes sense, but it doesn't really
give you a full answer. And what I enjoyedabout studying it in an academic setting

(27:37):
was that it was without the pressures ofcreating work to a certain time scale. So
you really had the indulgence of sort ofthinking about abstract concepts of
storytelling, and what does that mean whenI got out into the real world and I'm
like, Okay, how do I call myself adramaturg? Then that's kind of when I felt
like I have to define it for myself. Andfor me, I really consider it a process of

(28:03):
understanding what an artist is attemptingto achieve. You know, what's what's in the
brain, and how do we get as close to thatin real life? And so for me, questions of
like, Is this good or is this, you know,is it the right way to do it? Are kind of

(28:25):
irrelevant, because this is the idea,right? And if you are able to fully
articulate that idea, then it is notwhether or not it's good, it's whether or
not it's accurate. I think often, forexample, if someone said, like, I'm
writing a comedy, right? And then theygive you, you know, here are the blocks
that I'm working with, you know, here'sthe character, here's the, you know, the

(28:47):
plot and whatever. Well, then my questionsare, like, it's a comedy. Is it funny in
what way is it funny? Is it is it funny inthe way that you want it to be funny? What
do you want to elicit from the audience?And so depending on what the answer to
that is that determines how we work withit, you know, so everything's very unique,
and that's why, for me, it kind of makesit irrelevant, because, you know, your

(29:11):
project kind of has nothing to do with acomparable one. It's interesting to have
comparisons, and I do work, you know, withreferences, like, just, I'm known for
giving like, you know, here's, here's10,000 pages of references. But those are
interesting because they help youarticulate what your thing is and what it

(29:31):
is not, right? Not because I think thatyou should emulate it, because this is the
gold standard, you know.

Robert Kuang (29:37):
Yeah, it gives you more to, like, contextualize what it is you're
working on, right? Yeah.

Aisha Josiah (29:42):
And so that's, I think, what I find so compelling about dramaturgy and
so delicious is that process of it, Ithink, is very empowering, because it's
all about explain to me again, what it isyou mean, and go even deeper and go and
why do you. Why do you think that, youknow, and it's without judgment. It's just

(30:03):
this kind of trying to get it to aconcrete place where at some point you
feel like, Oh, I understand. And thatfeeling of understanding between two
people can be so, you know, weighty andjust comforting. And, yeah, it's sort of a
beautiful process. And then when you seethat go on the stage, you know, it's

(30:23):
amazing.

Robert Kuang (30:24):
And a lot of it would be like things that people may not be able to
see right away, but they always add to theoverall picture. Like an example of this,
which is, you know, in the TV world, nottheater, but I've been watching like white
lotus late. There's been so muchdiscussion about the costume, all of the
accessories they wear, the color schemes,you know, the literary references that

(30:50):
they're calling to with the paintings andthe artwork and everything, and all of
that, ultimately, is related to a bunch ofdifferent production departments. But
there's like, a dramaturgical through linethat you can tell is very intentional,
right? Versus something where you're like,why is there a zipper on that period dress
on things like it just like, random thingsthat just wind up throwing you off that

(31:12):
maybe didn't need to be there, and

Aisha Josiah (31:14):
It just throw questions there. I mean, it's kind of like, it's
funny to sort of like, I think aboutthings with the dramaturgs hat on, and
then people will often, sort of like, askme to put on, like a critics hat on as
well, because I do theater critics, andthey are, they are different hats, don't
get me wrong, but I think one being adramaturg has definitely made me a more
nuanced theater critic, nuanced,empathetic. I mean, I would say that the

(31:39):
conversations about how effectivesomething is, or, you know, what are the
implications of it? Are far moreinteresting than whether I liked it or
not. I like chocolate ice cream as well,you know, like should be all relevant, you
know, to the conversation. But the sort ofimplications of, you know, how can you

(31:59):
have this sort of epic drama that alsofeels incredibly contemporary, that also
works as an anthology. I mean, whitelotus, I think, does so much that is
visually stunning, but also feels likethis mishmash of high and low culture,
which is very, very relevant today, wherewe have so many different influences

(32:22):
happening at the same time, and so, yeah,I agree with you. I love how cohesive it
feels as an idea.

Robert Kuang (32:30):
And I think that's really the thing, that sometimes, when people are
watching movies where they're like, youknow, there's an overall discussion of,
like, what happened to the quality, orlike, studios are their projects? Are they
just feel different, right? Yeah, I thinka lot of it is just cohesion. When
hundreds of people try to work together,sometimes it can be really challenging. If

(32:51):
you're not careful, a project can wind upbeing sometimes a disaster. I mean, you
don't want that to be a case, but yeah,and also, by the way, I also think inside
of writers groups, we're kind of basicallytrying to offer each other dramaturgical
support, absolutely, you know what I mean,because we need it. We don't have other
spaces too often to actually care aboutthese things.

Aisha Josiah (33:11):
Yeah. I mean, that's one of the things I mean. And I struggle with
this, because I every so often people likeyou need to have more of a business minded
approach to this. But I started doingdramaturgy, like very, very cheaply for my
friends, and then sort of expanded fromthere. And I've always thought, you know,
just as someone who never grew up as atheater person and knows, like any hurdle,

(33:35):
can put off someone entirely. So if youare someone who's written your first play,
or something like that, and you're like,What do I do with it? Now, a dramaturg,
you know, can be a really greatintroduction to the world. And so I still,
you know, I have the same, the same ratesthat I started with, and, like, routinely,

(33:56):
I now have to put something in, likeemails where I'm like, Yes, this is not a
typo, because I frequently have peoplecome back and say, I'm sorry. I think you
wrote. And I was like, No, I did. I did.And so what I love about it, though, is
that it makes it feel as essential as Ithink it is. I think somewhere along the

(34:19):
line western theater in particular, got tothis place of like individualism, where
the artists are supposed to sit in a roomand do something amazing, just create a
masterpiece on their own and then revealit to the world. And the world goes, Oh my
God, look at that genius, you know.

Robert Kuang (34:35):
And it's usually built on like, huge amounts of impulse and kind of
rallying at the last minute. And I knowthat as a creative but you don't always
know what you're gonna get. And dramaturgyis like, let's really think about what
we're putting together.

Aisha Josiah (34:50):
Yeah and, and my thing is, like, there's nothing wrong with
acknowledging the collaborative nature ofwhat it is that you're doing. You're in
conversation. Conversation with ideas,hopefully that came from outside of
yourself. I don't think there's any waythat you could not be in conversation
without with ideas that you know cameoutside of you. And so there's nothing
wrong, and there's nothing that you knowtakes away from your perspective by sort

(35:15):
of saying, You know what? I sat down withsomeone, and we just went back and forth
and really wrestled with this to sort offigure out, what do I mean? And I think,
you know, back in back in the 1700s 1800swhen we are much more of a letter writing
culture, that's kind of what we did, andthat's what people admire about, you know,
old letters, I'm articulating myself toyou, and you're articulating yourself back

(35:40):
to me, and we're doing it in such a waythat it's a contained piece. It's a full
thought. Your articulator, if you'rehaving a good, you know, your
interlocutor, if I should say, if you'rehaving a good conversation, we'll come
back with some questions about this. And,you know, let me test the logic of what
you're saying. And, you know, let merespond to this. And that's kind of, I

(36:01):
think what dramaturgy is, I think it's areal conversation.

Robert Kuang (36:04):
Yeah, and there's also, like, a, there's also an intentional,
like, safe environment being created totest out the work. And once you send it
out, for better or worse, there's somethings you have to accept, right? Like,
you know, if people see it, we can'tcontrol what people say, but there are
kind of ways along the way to kind ofsomewhat prep, or help you prepare for
when you send your baby out into theworld, so to speak, right? But anyway, I

(36:28):
just wanted to talk about that, becauseeven personally, you know, as a writer,
writer, I'm just like, wow, we are reallymissing this particular element, yes,
based on what I'm seeing lately, you know,so

Aisha Josiah (36:39):
and I think also it it's a sense of empowerment for the artist as
well, because I think we have given up alot of our power in over to people who are
in charge of distribution, not creation.And distributors are important. But I
think it's also important for the or theartist generally, to know that that is

(37:03):
entirely separate from the act of creatingthe work. You thinking about a target
demographic, thinking about, you know, isthis going to play well on this, you know,
stage or whatever? They're not, you know,silly, throw away questions. They do
become relevant at a certain point, but Idon't think that they should have any

(37:23):
bearing on what you decide to create,right? I see that a lot like I have this
idea, but no one will want to see it,because where's the market for it? And
you're like, what does that?
What are you doing?

Robert Kuang (37:38):
And if there was a market, what does that mean, right? You know, does
that change anything?

Aisha Josiah (37:44):
This must be a good idea, because there's a market for, I was like,
well, there's a market for, like, eatingTide Pods. So, you know,

Robert Kuang (37:54):
I know, sadly, there are many niches on online, if you look for
them, but what? What is that? What Is thatrelevant to the work that you're trying to
create? Yeah, for sure, you also talkabout, in addition to being a writer,
dramaturg, you've kind of been in the roleof like editor or kind of like Editor in
Chief, having to make leadership executivedecisions, and also being a critic at

(38:18):
times. And for me, you know, as a part ofmy like freelance writing world. I do that
on occasion, but it is like a I'm suddenlyin a different dynamic in relationship to
the writers and artists that I'm usuallythere with. You know, how have you
navigated those times when you at least,for me, I've had to process and perhaps at
times, get over my own discomfort withbeing in a particular position that has

(38:42):
different like expectations now andimplications, you know?

Aisha Josiah (38:46):
Yeah, I think that's such a great question. And I think honestly,
being as open as possible, what I found,you know, every year I go to the fringe
and definitely going as a critic, peopletreat you very differently, and I find

(39:07):
that it was important for me to be able toexplain that I am not a teacher grading
your test. You know?

Robert Kuang (39:18):
Right, it's not like an assessment. Yeah,

Aisha Josiah (39:21):
Right. And I think for a lot of people, and for good reason, you know,
and I don't, I don't exclude myself fromthis at all. But for some, for many
people, the work is a proxy for yourself,and so to have the work rejected does feel
like you're being rejected in some way.It's so important to resist that, that

(39:44):
understanding of the work, because, ofcourse, it isn't you know. And also, who
would I be to reject someone that I don'tknow? And so for me, I think part of. Of
theater criticism is an, it's a it's aprocess of educating as well to sort of

(40:07):
say, think about what this is. This is aconversation between people, and this is a
conversation between the critic and thecreator. It's funny. I recently met one of
my all time like heroes and Mark Fisher,who's a famous critic, and he came out
with, like, the definitive book, I think,on theater criticism, which I used in my

(40:30):
criticism classes. And so I met him at aparty, and I was like, oh my god, on the
inside, I think I might outside as well.But, you know, it was just a beautiful
thing. But one thing that he sort offocuses on is this kind of tripart
methodology of trying to understand, like,what is the thing? What is the purpose?

(40:53):
Like, what is the intention of the artist?And how close to that intention have they
gotten, you know, and that's such adifferent framework than going in and sort
of saying, like, oh, this was good or thiswasn't as good as the other thing, you
know, right? Because were they trying toachieve the same thing, you know, if they

(41:15):
weren't, then, you know, that's kind ofcomparing apples to oranges, you know,
yeah. So, yeah, that's the kind of, youknow, conversation that I like to have
with creatives. And I think it putscriticism into a very different position
than we're used to seeing it. I alwaysthink of like Birdman, you know, the
theater critic being this like animal thatis just there to sort of like, tear you

(41:38):
down, you know. And the game is the sortof like, Sidestep them and, you know, woo
them and do something. And you know thatit's an adversarial relationship. And I
don't believe that criticism needs to bethat.

Robert Kuang (41:53):
For sure, yeah, you know, I think there's like, an old school way of
looking at critics of you make yourselfknown by being by standing out with what
you write, and sometimes in, like peopleare reading to see what insults they're
throwing right and things like that. Butthen there's, you know, being a reviewer
and critic, where the intention, hopefullyis to add to the overall conversation of

(42:14):
the project and what it's trying toachieve, and perhaps even through, like,
your reflections and observations, again,that it's additive and not something that
takes away gas in the tank for the artistand for the project itself. But, you know,
it's interesting, because there were timeswhere I was recently assigned to review
something, and it's been a long time, andsitting in the audience, I was sort of

(42:37):
like, sometimes, I was like, oh, what.What feedback should I give and things
like that? I was like, No, that's notreally my role here. I'm both an audience
and also just thinking about the themessaging a little bit. Yeah, it was, it
was interesting because, you know, Inoticed people were talking to people knew
who their critics were, and everyone elseknew everyone else, you know. And I was

(42:58):
like, submerged in that world, trying notto just trying to be neutral.

Aisha Josiah (43:02):
Yeah, it's an interesting thing, you know, especially when people
know the role that you're there for,because you do sort of feel put on the
spot. Like, I definitely have been toshows that have been performed very
conspicuously to me. And, you know, it'skind of like, oh my goodness, yeah.

Robert Kuang (43:24):
You're like, yes,

Aisha Josiah (43:26):
the show, because it's deeply uncomfortable. Is that what you're
going for, right? You know, I think it'sa, it's a, it's an interesting position. I
what I try to sort of remember is that wesort of think of like culture as like
these artifacts, you know, like plays andthings like that, but the culture is
actually the conversation around theseartifacts, right? It's how we

(43:48):
contextualize them. So this act ofcriticism is culture making, right? I put
some new thoughts in, you know, the etherabout this show or performance that I've
seen, and I'm encouraging you to come backto me at that and in that conversation
that we have, this is the culture. This iswhat the community thinks about this

(44:11):
thing. And if we think it about thisthing, what are the implications, you
know? What do we think on a broader level?And so I think that's a very important
role, and so that's why I think criticismis essential. But I also think, because
it's so important, we need to be better ateducating people in how to do it and also

(44:37):
what it actually functions. What's thefunction of it? What's it there for? And
in particular, I think artists should beon the front lines of that, because I
think artists, people who are deeplyimmersed in the creation of work, are the
most empathetic, nuanced critics that I'veever kind of. Cross, but often need a lot

(45:02):
of encouragement. I've had to encourage.You know people who say I'm an actor or
I'm a lighting designer, I don't knowcriticism. Oh, interesting. What do you
mean? You don't know you if anyone knowstheater, you know theater? Yeah,

Robert Kuang (45:16):
I would love to hear a lighting designer talk about lighting on a
show,

Aisha Josiah (45:21):
because they they illuminate pun intended, you know, like they really
just get you, like, a completely differentperspective. You know, I could be thinking
about it all day, you know what? If youknow, you have these different lighting
states and, you know, in this particularshow, what would that mean? I want us as a
community to become well versed in thesedifferent areas, because I think it can

(45:47):
only help the quality of the work that wecreate. Yeah, we're well versed in
celebrity and marketing. I think we've hadenough. We are all very deeply immersed in
that, and we understand, and we've got allof the satire and stuff around it, but you
know, what does it mean to sort of thinkabout it from a musical perspective or

(46:09):
from a director's perspective? You know,how can we deepen those conversations? And
I think that's what criticism is greatfor, and that's why I think we need lots
of different types of critics coming frombackgrounds. There you go, exactly. They
cannot be that.

Robert Kuang (46:26):
That may be another element to to all of this as well. It's like, what
is, what is a particular landscape like,when there's just a lot of different ways
of looking at criticism.

Aisha Josiah (46:37):
Exactly, and people who, like, you know, just go to the theater,
like I came from the gym now I'm going tothe theater, you know, or, like I came
from Wall Street now I'm going to thetheater. Like, just, that's what we need,
I think, you know, really, to just have anactual, real slice of what this culture

(46:57):
is.

Robert Kuang (46:58):
We have a little bit of time left. And I wanted to ask you about your
experience as a black woman. So since youstarted writing and creating and
committing to being an artist in all theways that you are, how do you think the
landscape has changed? Let's say the artsand entertainment industry, but also
particularly, let's say for BIPOC womenlike yourself.

Aisha Josiah (47:18):
That's really interesting. I think something that I've thought about
recently is that, from a writingperspective, I actually had to go through
a process, and I think I'm still goingthrough this process of actually
distinguishing what is me and what arewhat is the culture that I've been
socialized in. I realized a little alittle while ago that, you know, when I

(47:41):
was introduced to theater, and the playsand stuff that really lit my brain on
fire, you know, this was stuff like SamSheppard, David Mamet, Oscar Wilde, right?
And honestly, for all intents andpurposes, I was a playwright. He was a
white man, because those are the storiesthat I grew up with. Those are the ones

(48:02):
that resonated with me, yeah, you know.And so then when I'm, you know, started
taking on like, you know, Lynn Nottage andSusan Laurie parks, and, you know,
different and I traveled also to Ghana andto Paris, and, you know, different places,
and, you know, experienced differenttheater traditions. That's when I kind of
had my first kind of breaking out of that,you know, this idea of the canon, and this

(48:28):
is what literature is. And I think it'sreally important to sort of to understand
that I think about quote, unquote,minority writers, because many of us in a
post colonial society are speakingfluently in a language that is not ours.

(48:49):
And so what is the language of people whohave been subsumed in another culture?
It's something different. It's a kind ofpatois. It's a kind of, there's, it's
beautiful, and it's there, but it needs,it's almost like it needs, like an
anthropologist to, sort of, like, get inthere and figure out what it is that that

(49:12):
this, yeah, I think a challenge when itcomes to the day to day logistics of being
a black female playwright is how youpresent yourself, because there is the
expectation. I think part of the challengeis how you present yourself, and feeling

(49:33):
definitely pressure to present yourself ina certain way, right? You know, as a black
female writer, I feel like I'm expected totalk about certain things, and I'm
expected to, you know, be using certainforms, and, you know, be experimental in
certain ways. And I, I always try andbecome more and more comfortable with

(49:57):
rejecting sort of that, not because. As,you know, I want to be contrary, but
because I need to allow the space to thinkin ways that I'm almost, I almost feel
like I shouldn't, right, like youshouldn't. You shouldn't say that. That's
not for you to say, because this is notyour experience, right? Or, you know,

(50:19):
that's not for you know, you know, youshould be focusing on something that's
important, right?

Robert Kuang (50:24):
That's potent, right? It's like being the perfect, marginalized
person

Aisha Josiah (50:28):
And you know? And another thing is that, like, especially, you know,
as someone who, I mean, I went to like, agrammar school, and I think I present very
differently than my work, you know, sopeople sort of like, they see me, and
they're like, Oh, okay. And then, youknow, they see dickless, and they're like,
oh, okay, that's a lot more, that's a lotmore swearing than we had thought. That's

(50:51):
a that's a very raunchy and I'm like,yeah, that's, that's both me. Both me. I
think that's a thing that, to me, stillfeels like the luxury afforded to sort of,
I think, European white men generally, butlike they are allowed to be the full

(51:12):
breath of their person, and there's noquestion about it. And I think for other
marginalized groups, there's the challengeis being able to express yourself fully in
that way first, because you have to figureout, what is that, because you don't have
the language initially to to articulatethat, and that's why I think so many

(51:37):
writers and stuff have had to go abroadand, you know, really just go through
transformative, you know, experiences,yeah, yeah. And then once you develop a
language, being confident enough andhaving enough opportunities to sort of
say, Here's my new language, here's theway I like to present myself. Let me do

(51:57):
that and let that be acceptable.

Robert Kuang (52:00):
Thank you so much for saying that, because I think that's both like a
personal journey and a collectivecommunity. One right? I have been
fortunate, and I know you have to to be incommunities where we get to where our
identity does not have to be displaced. Itdoes not it can be. It's just normal. And
those are wonderful opportunities. Buttruthfully, there can still be like kind

(52:21):
of monolithic thinking wherever you are,right, no matter who you're with. So
there's always a moment where I have to goback to like, who am I and what am I on
this earth to do, right? And also here allthese identities and multiple things are
true, and I'm an immigrant, right? So it'sjust like navigating this space is never

(52:41):
ending. Lee adventurous, I guess I willsay yes at the same time, it's just like
there's always more, like we can always domore to create spaces for for artists, so
that you never know what the next projectcould come out of. It was I recently spoke
to ins joy, who created Kim's convenience.I didn't know that it came out of a play,
yeah, that he worked on after graduatingfrom theater school at Asian Canadian

(53:07):
Theater Company. He got tired of having noopportunities, no roles, that he finally
wrote his own material, and I was out of,like, community theater spaces. You know,
you just never know.

Aisha Josiah (53:19):
It's so funny, because I have found, you know, even when I was at
NYU, I would write characters, and one ofthe notes that I would get back would be
like, I don't know what the ethnicbackground of this character is. As a
note, I knew instinctively I was like,This is not a useful note. But I realized
in hindsight, because, for some reason,and I not for some reason, I think we're

(53:43):
socialized to think that, like on theinside, I must just be inherently
different, you know, as a black woman, asan Asian woman. So you know what? I mean,
like, it must just be inherently differenton the inside. It couldn't possibly be
this kind of like any person, you know,

Robert Kuang (53:59):
yeah, the being othered is coming from you, not your environment.
And, yeah.

Aisha Josiah (54:05):
It's like, this is this is too relatable. Where is she from? You
know? And sort of be like, is sheNigerian? I'm like, Absolutely not. Like,
I'm not. This makes no sense, you know.And so that, I think I found, I find
hilarious. It's a little a littlemelancholy, a little sad, but also, I
think I get a lot of a lot of hope fromthat, because that's what I aim to do. I

(54:31):
aim to create stories and characters thatfeel like they are, you know, entirely
universal. You can put yourself in there.Because if I can do that, then I feel like
that sort of proof that I am also part ofthe society, you know, I understand right
as well as right? We're both in the sameplace, you know. So that's the that's the

(54:55):
goal. I think, if anything, that's the bigchallenge as well. You know, when you're
coming from a back. Grounds that is sortof frequently othered. It's kind of like
you have to keep claiming a stake in thesociety, like, I'm here, I belong here. In
fact, I get it. We're both together. We'redoing the same thing. Yeah, that's a I
think that's an interesting one. Andmaybe, I don't know if you ever get there,

(55:18):
get to that place, but I do think thatbeing able to create works of all genres,
of all, you know, types, being able tomake bad work, I think that's the real,
you know, I one thing. I think.

Robert Kuang (55:31):
It's such a privilege. Yeah, and I keep telling people, like everyone,
please, set, I don't know, set a goal tomake bad art, if anything, because people
do this all the time, and they failupwards.

Aisha Josiah (55:43):
Yes, yes. Fail upwards constantly. And I look and I'm like, that
was objectively just terrible. That was abad we. They did not achieve the goal. And
yet, you know, here they are.

Robert Kuang (55:55):
The difference may just have been. They just decided, who cares? Yes, I
I'm hot shit or whatever, right?

Aisha Josiah (56:01):
yeah, yeah. And, you know what? Why not? Let's all be audacious like
this. You know, not sort of hold ourselvesback because we sort of think this is not
good enough yet. No one is going to, youknow, I think, I think that's what I see
often in sort of like marginalizedcommunities. It's not so much that, you
know, every opportunity, you know, there'sa door closing in your face. I think often

(56:26):
we close the doors ourselves, becausewe're kind of like, I'm not ready for the
big leagues like that. I haven't had, youknow, and they won't understand it, yeah,
you know, it has to be perfect. It has tobe marketable. It has to be, yeah, I get
it, you know. But that's, I want to seethe scrappy, messy stuff, yeah? Because
that's where you really get to the heartof, like, you know, culture, conversation,

(56:51):
uncomfortableness, absolutely. Yeah, Idon't know if that quite answers, you
know, what the experience? I mean, there'sall, there's all the usual, you know,
people, no,

Robert Kuang (57:01):
you know. Thank you for being willing to tackle this question that
I know it's just like a perennial. Youknow? Hopefully we can continue to be
willing to connect with each other'spersonal truths. You know what I mean,
because we know multiple things are true,and your perspective is just as value
valuable as anyone else's right? So thankyou for your time today and your openness

(57:21):
and willingness to chat about thesethings. You know, some of them sometimes
are like sensitive topics, but I thinkthis is just stuff that we live with,
right? So for anyone who wants to connectwith you and check out your work and maybe
work with you, I'll put the links in theshow notes. But for listeners, where can
they find?

Aisha Josiah (57:38):
The best place to find me is my website. So just Aisha josiah.com and
I'm woefully bad at keeping it up to date,but it will be getting an update very
soon. And so that is where you can, sortof, you know, see what I'm up to and
things I've done in the past, and then onmy socials again, just my name, Aisha

(58:00):
Josiah, I've got my my my link tree, whichhas got all of the things that I do with
fringe biscuit and stage analytics andjust my whole jack of all trades sort of
goes on there. I kind of, I am one ofthose people who social media is a tool

(58:21):
for me, not a pleasurable experience inand of itself. It's

Robert Kuang (58:25):
no longer a place where I express myself. I use it for very specific
purposes.

Aisha Josiah (58:32):
I'm all I'm very much a person who loves receiving emails and
stuff from people like I'm I think if we,if we still wrote letters, I would enjoy a
letter from a stranger. And so that's kindof where I get my my joy and stuff. Like,
people just like, Hey, I like, read this.And, you know, like, my email is very open
to people, which, you know, may or may notbite me in the ass at some point.

Robert Kuang (58:57):
I love that. I love that we'll have people like, find it and like,
really take you and then connect with,yes,

Aisha Josiah (59:04):
you get on my website. You can send me an email directly, and I will
read it. And, you know, it'll be a lotmore fun than any of the spam ones that I
get trying to something,

Robert Kuang (59:15):
yeah,

Aisha Josiah (59:17):
but I think, I think that's kind of, I'd like that to mean to remain
the case, you know, for as long as I gotthe bandwidth and stuff for it. Because I
think especially for artists, we shouldalways feel like we can just knock on each
other's doors and just say, hey,

Robert Kuang (59:30):
yeah, never hurts to reach out.

Aisha Josiah (59:31):
yeah, yeah, I saw something you did, and I thought it was cool. Just
wanted to say hi. I also do cool things,you know. And I'm like, Oh, great, thank
you. Exactly No. So things like this aswell. I love listening to a good podcast,
and just like finding out about peoplethat I've like, snooped on from afar,

Robert Kuang (59:50):
that's my secret goal is like I have, I have a more stronger case
for reaching out to people and to, like,actually ask them questions. I've been
wanting to. Ask, but like, so once again,thank you so much for being willing for
that, and also, like, we definitely shouldkeep in touch you and I. So thank you.
Hopefully. Yeah, this definitely won't beour last combo, for sure.

Aisha Josiah (01:00:13):
So thank you. Oh, it's been a joy.