April 22, 2025 • 51 mins
Today’s returning guest is Sol Smith, the author of “The Autistic’s Guide to Self-Discovery” and a certified autism specialist who is autistic, dyslexic, and living with ADHD. He spent more than two decades as a college professor before shifting his professional focus to coaching other autistic and ADHD people to gain autonomy in their lives. Sol’s speaking skills have earned him a following of hundreds of thousands on TikTok and led to educational seminars about neurodiversity with corporations around the world.
In this conversation, we dive inside the different paths for diagnosis, the scientific and social factors that impact allistic and autistic people, and different roadmaps towards self-acceptance, fulfillment, and community.
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Unknown (00:00):
Music.
Robert Kuang (00:07):
Welcome to side by side, a podcast where I Robert Kuang take you
inside conversations with artists,creatives, healers and warriors taking the
charge in their transformational story.
Today's returning guest is Sol Smith, theauthor of The Autistics guide to self
(00:28):
discovery, and a certified autismspecialist who is autistic, dyslexic and
living with ADHD. He spent more than twodecades as a college professor before
shifting his professional focus tocoaching other autistic and ADHD people to
gain autonomy in their lives. Soulspeaking skills have earned him a
following of hundreds of 1000s on Tiktokand led to educational seminars about
(00:52):
neurodiversity with corporations aroundthe world.
In this conversation, we dive inside thedifferent paths for diagnosis, the
scientific and social factors that impactallistic and autistic people, and
different road maps towards selfacceptance, fulfillment and community.
You can find more side by side episodes atsidebyside podcast.podbean.com,
(01:18):
and if you're working on a purpose drivenwriting project. I've opened a few one on
one coaching spots this season. You canlearn more or book a discovery call at WWW
dot Robert Kuang home.com,
okay, so I have another returning guest onside by side. It was such a pleasure to
(01:43):
connect with you the first time on mypodcast, and you were just so generous and
willing to say yes and to speak on thistopic. And then I'm not sure how long
later you have your book, your next book,The Autistics guide to self discovery. So
welcome back. Sol Smith.
Sol Smith (01:59):
hi. Thank you so much for having me again. It's great.
Robert Kuang (02:01):
So congrats on your book that's going to be coming out in a couple
weeks here. How was the process overall,getting this book started, and what's been
the journey so far for you?
Sol Smith (02:10):
Gosh, you know, it's been really great. I have been, you know, doing
a lot of coaching with Autistics and ADHDfolk, and lots of presence on on social
media. And somebody reached out to me froma who works at the San Francisco Writers
Conference. She said, Hey, I really thinkthat you ought to come up here. I think
(02:32):
you should come to the Writers Conference.And I was like, oh, gosh, I really should,
but it's been a while since I've been to awriters conference, and I don't have
anything ready. And she goes, No, I reallythink you should. And so I was like, okay,
it just seemed like a sign that, why not?
So I registered for the conference. I gotup there, and I hadn't been there for
years, and I have a background in writing.Yeah, I met with a couple agents and
(02:57):
publishers, and they just jumped right onthe project. You know, I wrote up a really
brief proposal on the way up there. I madea mind map of what I would like to talk
about in the book, just sort of a road mapfor what people can expect in their
journey once they realize they'reautistic, and they just kind of jumped on
(03:18):
it. It was a really rewarding process. Itwas very exciting.
Robert Kuang (03:21):
Yeah, I don't think people are aware that. First of all, some people
may not be aware there are writingconferences and writer conferences, good
point. And secondly, I love that. Youknow, when I think of those, it's a chance
for people to connect and share their workand everything, but you went there also
just specific to network and withsomething in mind, as far as, like, a
(03:43):
pitch and that something tangible reallyhappened from that. I just want to
reiterate that for the people who arefeeling a little doom and gloom, I
suppose,
Sol Smith (03:51):
yeah. No, that's a good point. Yeah, writers conferences, yeah. Usually
you have authors, you have agents, youhave publishers, and they get together and
talk about the industry, the state of theindustry, different trends. Talk about
writing process, and it's, it's a niceoverall, very positive experiences. And
you have authors from every level ofcareer there, usually people have a pitch
(04:11):
in mind. They have something that they,you know, somebody they've picked out
who's going to be there, that they want totalk to. They arrange these meetings
between you and agent or publisher. And,you know, in the past, when I've done it,
it's it, you know, you get positivefeedback. Everybody's very nice. But this
time, I had this big Tik-Tok following,and I had a really cohesive message. Just
(04:32):
everything kind of fell into place, and itjust felt really good.
Robert Kuang (04:34):
And I think this topic about autism and neurodivergence is more
important than ever. And yet I understandit's kind of more the stakes are higher in
some ways for people, right? Yeah, I'mcurious how you're navigating the
conversation as you're writing this book,but also seeing things maybe rapidly
change around you, but also some thingsmaybe you saw coming. I'm curious how
(04:56):
you're navigating like 2025 specifically,with this topic.
Sol Smith (05:01):
yeah, yeah, um, you know, overall, one thing that's really
encouraging is the much better vocabularywe have for understanding ourselves now,
yeah, than we used to have, right? Like,overall, this is the case that you still
have people who are who are undereducatedabout autism, but I'm talking to people in
their 20s, in their teens who understandtheir neurodivergence in a way that, gosh,
(05:24):
I wish I did at their age. You know, itwould have been so, so great and, you
know, and that's not even to mention thevocabulary we have for sexuality and
gender identity, all these other ways thatwe understand ourselves better and have
been allowed to be introspective in waysthat we weren't in the 80s and 90s when I
(05:45):
was growing up, right? That's veryexciting stuff. Then we get to 2025, and
at the end of this, you know, somewhattroubling presidential campaign, and the
beginning of this somewhat troublingpresidential regime. And essentially, you
know what we're seeing here is, this is anage old strategy, which is to not look at
(06:07):
the facts, not look at data, not look atresearch, which all exists out there, but
instead to speak very loudly to people'snervous systems and make them scared.
Yeah, yeah. You know, yeah. So people areloss averse they have, like our nervous
systems. We're just anxious people becauseof the way we evolved, we stayed very safe
(06:28):
by being very suspicious of differentrustles in the bushes, being very
suspicious of everything we hear. And soour amygdala, which governs our sort of
fear, is very ready to jump, yeah. So it'seasy for somebody to stand up there and
scare people about autism. You know, thisis the new Boogeyman. Now again, you've
they know that that we've heard aboutautism. They know that we've heard that
(06:51):
that numbers are going up, but by justwalking past everything that we actually
know every all the ways that we'veactually increased our knowledge out
there. And also, I should add, by makingup numbers out of nowhere, they've been
able to just completely communicate tomass amount of people's amygdala,
something scary is going on. And then steptwo of that is, but we have the answers,
(07:16):
and we're going to take care of you,right, right? And so instead of any kind
of a logical argument at all, you havewhat can barely be called an emotional
argument. It's basically creating ananxiety in somebody and then offering them
the solution to that anxiety. And I mean,we see advertisers do this all the time,
but seeing it in a presidential campaignis really, really troubling. You know, our
(07:37):
thinking brain is very slow, right? Ourprefrontal cortex is does things very
slowly. If you have to sit and do you knowmultiplication of a two, two digit
numbers, you have to stop and think aboutit, most of us, and that's a slow process.
But if you see a snake, you'd have areally quick reaction. So so you'd have
(07:58):
one political party, their entire strategyseems to be just showing you snakes
everywhere, and then saying, Don't worry,don't worry, we can take care of these
snakes. And damn, it's effective.
Robert Kuang (08:09):
Yeah, yeah. I this is an interesting conversation, but there are
certain pipelines about for people withdisability that's very prevalent, and they
function in the way that's fear mongeredfor very specific reason in either
direction, at least for the United States,as far as political leanings, but it's
right, and yet the community that includespeople with autism are often weaponized
(08:33):
and used in ways that may or may notbenefit those people. So just wanted to
highlight why it's important to talk aboutthis, also from a place of mutual aid,
which I see from your work as well. Yeah,and you talk about identity, so I guess
I'll start there. Why is it important toutilize identity first language? We
(08:54):
typically associate that with somethinglike the LGBTQ community, but you're sort
of advocating that in general as a netpositive for people that can really
struggle with self awareness andunderstanding who we are and diagnosis and
all of that.
Sol Smith (09:07):
Yeah, and I think that really the neurodivergence as we are learning
more about ourselves and advocating forchanges that we have a lot to learn from,
the LGBTQ plus community that the pridemovement is so brilliant because it's
coming from a place where there were somechanging ideas about sexuality. There was
(09:32):
a little bit more openness, but thisopenness came in the language of
tolerance. Yeah, right. Like, you know, ifyou look at the 80s and 90s and you have
like, the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy.They're like, it's okay to be gay, just
don't talk about it, right? And then,basically, the attitude can be summed up
as, like, Hate the sin, love the sinner,and pride says, No, I don't have to
(09:54):
apologize for this. This is part of who Iam. If you're going to accept me, you need
to. Accept all of me, and I love who Ilove, and I'm going to be who I'm going to
be. And this is a very shamelessrepresentation of who they are. And of
course, they learned a lot from the BlackPanthers. You know, they learned a lot
from the civil rights movement. So I thinkthat we need to see this and recognize
(10:21):
that autism is not something to be cured.It's not an affliction that we have. It is
an identity we are autistic. It's notsomething that I carry with me. It's not
going to be taken from me, right? So, soit becomes really important to identify
with it and identify with other autisticpeople, even though we may not seem the
(10:42):
same at all because we're really a veryheavily marginalized group, unemployment
is really, really high, loneliness isreally, really high. Life expectancy is
really, really low. Our chance of dying ofsuicide is supposedly eight to nine times
higher than normal, so we're overrepresented in clinical settings. Every
(11:04):
aspect of our health seems to be lower,partially because we're not as believed.
So there's all kinds of ways that we needto be advocating for ourselves and that
the specific numbers are hard to come bybecause we were still under diagnosed.
Yeah, and there's, there's this myth thatwe're over diagnosing it, and yet we know
(11:25):
and it's under diagnosed. And this isespecially problematic for, again, you
know, women and minority races, becausethey present very differently than white
dudes do. All of the diagnostic criteriawas made out of observing, you know, upper
middle class white guys. So it's evenharder for them. And we think that it's
about 80% of adults who are women orminorities and are autistic are not
(11:51):
diagnosed. Yeah. So it's really, it'sreally hard to get, you know, specific
numbers. And you see numbers, um, fromvery reliable resources saying that, among
Autistics with college degrees,unemployment is between 70 and 85% and
this is compared to their generalpopulation, which is about 4.2%
Robert Kuang (12:12):
Wow,
Sol Smith (12:13):
that's a Yeah, that was a massive difference.
Robert Kuang (12:15):
I didn't realize it was that staggering. Wow,
Unknown (12:17):
Right, right. And you know, most of us have way more jobs than is. Is
typical. We can't really rely on it asmuch. We tend to be over educated and
underpaid, yeah, just all sorts of thingsthat that make it really important for us
to start paying attention to thismarginalized group.
Robert Kuang (12:35):
Yeah, and the meaning that we used to make out of all of these
statistics and patterns, right? Without alot of us realizing that this is a huge
swath, that people are experiencing thevery same thing that we were, you know,
very early on. And I think that's why it'simportant for your book to start with
understanding the different paths towardsdiagnosis or awareness, even whatever you
(12:57):
want to call it, you talk about how it'simportant to respect self diagnosis and
also the other different paths of becomingaware of your own autism. Why is that so
important, given some of the context wewere sharing?
Sol Smith (13:09):
Yeah, because access is a really big challenge in many places, it's
really expensive to get a diagnosis, and85% of doctors say that they are
undereducated for autistic patients, andwhich basically means that you even have
people working in diagnosis who are not asup to date as they could be. Just for
(13:32):
example, when I was my seeking a diagnosisfor my son, and the doctor was was really
hedging on this and saying, Well, he'smaking really good eye contact. And I
said, Okay, you know, right? And he said,I can see why you think you're autistic.
You're meeting all of the criteria, butyou're making really good eye contact. We
(13:52):
don't know that you had trouble withfriendships before age 12. And I was like,
You cannot build a case on that. I said. Isaid, Look, I said, you're gonna say that
he's making good eye contact. You justsaid that his IQ is higher than yours. I
said, You think he can't figure out how tofake eye contact. I mean, come on, he's
gotten by this far. And I said, Not onlythat, I said he's trans male, that means
(14:14):
he's 800% more likely to be autistic thancis gendered male. And the guy says, I
don't know that that's true. And I said,How do you not know that? Was that that's
true? That's what the statistics say. Andyou know, so here we have a diagnosing
clinician who did not know that that wasthe case. And I just find that really
frustrating. So we do need to respect thefact that we can learn a lot about
(14:35):
ourselves and that doctors are exposed tous for 45 minutes, maybe a couple hours.
It's in the under the most controlled ofimaginable conditions, they're great
conditions for masking it's not areciprocal relationship. They only have to
talk to you. You don't have to ask themabout them the like. It's very easy to
(14:57):
fake eye contact, and in a single room,I'm having trouble making out. Contact
over a computer
Robert Kuang (15:01):
well, and you know you're being assessed, right?
Sol Smith (15:04):
And you know you're being assessed, right? You know you're being
judged. All the attention is on you.
Robert Kuang (15:08):
Yeah, yeah. No, it's yeah. I often struggle with this, and I've
messaged you here and there about myexperience. It was like, well, it was
either being like, I'll put this down theline, or pay $3,500 with health, right,
right for a comprehensive assessment, orthe alternative was, like $300 for, like a
one hour assessment, but I don't want toput myself through that just for a
(15:31):
possibly and right? And there were allkinds of things that was coming up. And I
was like, mostly I just wanted to see ifthe care that is aimed towards people with
autism would support me, but I was, Irealized it was just kind of a wall, if
you will, between me figuring that out andeverything that's on the other side.
Sol Smith (15:50):
Yeah, definitely. And I mean, not only that, there's really, once you
are diagnosed, that's kind of it, you'rejust sort of set adrift at sea, because as
an adult, there isn't a lot in place. Youknow, like the knowledge is important,
yeah, you know, people say, Oh, don'ttrust self diagnosis. But like, you have
(16:10):
to advocate for yourself in order to evenget a diagnosis. So you already suspect
it, and most people already have suspectedit for, you know, one to three years
before they really seek a diagnosis, soyou already know at this point, then you
get the diagnosis and you find that itdoesn't change very much. You don't get
services. And it's wild, because you lookat all of the services that there are for
(16:34):
kids in school, and I'm not saying thatthey're sufficient, but they do have them
all different accommodations for kids inschool, different ways that they can help
them out. Once you turn 18, they just goaway and they don't seem to understand
that autistic kids turn into autisticadults. They don't grow out of it like
Robert Kuang (16:55):
they can toughen up or something right,
Sol Smith (16:58):
Exactly, yeah, and that's another thing, is that we hear a lot is,
well, you've made it this far. And I meanthat just completely right, that
completely discounts all of the strugglecan completely discounts all of the
cognitive energy that we've put intomaking it this far, all of the job
hopping, all of the you know, again, theloneliness, the ruined friendships, this
(17:20):
not knowing this about yourself can behazardous to your health. Yeah, literally,
yeah, yeah. So it's not a matter of like,you've made it this far. It's like, for
many of us, it's a miracle that I've madeit this far, and it's it would be
important to know, but it is very much outof reach for a lot of people. So we really
want to be affirming of people who havedone the work work. They've listened to
autistic voices. Listen to the experienceof autism because it sounds very different
(17:44):
than the diagnostic criteria. When youtalk to somebody who's lived the autistic
experience doesn't really sound the sameas the symptoms which are seen from the
outside.
Robert Kuang (17:53):
Yeah, it just occurred to me with we were just talking about assessment
for autism, and also, pretty much everyother condition these days is that one on
one clinical setting, but you can probablyspot certain things much quicker just
observing a bunch of kids playing witheach other. Yeah, I guess you can call
that a lateral thinking move.
Sol Smith (18:12):
Totally, yeah, you can. I mean, just for example, they've done experiments
in labs where they give a bunch of kidswho never met each other like toys to play
with, and within 30 minutes, they haveostracized the ADHD kid. You know, just
takes 30 minutes for them to know, andyet, it takes doctors all sorts of tests
to figure out if you're ADHD or not. Andit's the same thing with with autism. You
(18:35):
know, there's a 2017 study where, withcollege students, they show them
videotapes of different socialinteractions between different people, and
then they have them rate the likeabilityof the people in the videos, and all of
them rated the autistic people in thevideos as less likable. So like, we're
(18:56):
already being labeled. We're alreadybeing, you know, discounted by people,
yeah, and yet, yet, we have to fight for,you know, a diagnosis for this. And you
know, one of the reasons that people sayyou need to have the official diagnosis is
you're going to take resources away fromother people who need it. And I'm like,
where are these resources that I can take?Right? I'd love to know, yeah.
Robert Kuang (19:18):
And I want to highlight a quote real quick, since you were talking
about statistics already, this issomething from the book, Autistics
ruminate at rates far higher thanallistics do. Allistics being people
without autism, but maybe neurodivergentin some other way, often dwelling on
thoughts of guilt, sadness and angerdirected at the self. This is so common
(19:39):
among Autistics that it appears to beresponsible for nearly all the higher
rates of depression and self harm. So it'sgoing back to the full philosophical
leaning of like you should care aboutpeople, even if it doesn't directly impact
you. But there's so much that's impactingautistic people's lives that, you know, I
wish we could bridge the. At between thosewho maybe just can't understand the
(20:03):
intensity of that experience and justprovide greater community and support,
which I think your book really emphasizes,yeah, definitely.
Sol Smith (20:10):
And that's yeah, the philosophical question, should we care
about people who don't affect you? Wildthat we have to talk about that.
Robert Kuang (20:17):
But I go back to that as like, how can you not care about this. And
the only one of the things is like, oh,it's because it's not currently impacting
you directly enough.
Sol Smith (20:25):
Yeah, it's, it's, you know, I this is a problem of capitalism. Really,
the values that capitalism put in you arevery selfish. I hate to go off on the
tangent. It's just essentially, when youlook at the American dream as it stands,
is essentially to be so successful thatthe world's problems don't affect you, you
(20:46):
know. And I feel like that's, that's aterrible message. I feel like it should be
that your success helps other people toovercome the world's problems, or helps
the world's problems to be lighter, youknow. But that's maybe I watch too much
Star Trek, but, yeah, so we do have thesecultural values that are a little bit
askew, and I think that that really helpsdemonstrate that this is a social
(21:08):
disability. There's nothing wrong withautistic people besides the way that they
don't fit into this society, the valuesand the way we're treated. So being Yeah,
yeah, you know, so so, like, if we justhad a more flexible, more educated
society, we wouldn't be facing theseproblems like I was talking about that
2017 study about them rating less likablein 2022 the same researcher repeated the
(21:35):
study, but gave A test group a 30 minutepresentation about autistic traits, and
then they found that this completelymoderated the results, and they did not
find the autistic people less likable. Soonce you increase the education, it does
challenge people's, like, instinctivebeliefs. Yeah, people do change, and we
(21:57):
just don't have it there, like, like, wejust don't have it in place. And instead,
you know, we're faced with this massivechallenge of just existing, and so we
ruminate a lot. Our brains are over wired,and our default mode network, which is the
amount of activity happening in your brainwhen you're not doing anything else, is
42% higher on average, than an allisticperson's default mode network. So our
(22:22):
brains are very loud. They're very noisy,and they're mostly reviewing our
interactions, reviewing things, because weare constantly masking, constantly trying
to fit in. And instead of this being aninstinctive process, it's a very cognitive
process. So we're reviewing, criticizingourselves, and this just leads to a lot of
(22:43):
rejection, sensitivity, it leads to a lotof depression, self harm, unhealthy coping
mechanisms, like, you know, chemicaldependencies, eating disorders, all these
different ways to manage this surplus ofanxiety and shame, yeah,
Robert Kuang (22:59):
And sensory issues as well, right? It's not just, it's like both
pathological cognitive, but also just veryphysical as well, depending on, you know,
your particular experience. And it's just,it's a lot, and I never placed, you know,
my eating habits and my usage of cannabisto like anything around neurodivergence,
(23:21):
it was always like, a lot of like shame orotherwise, I just didn't care about it.
But I never realized it was out of, likeexhaustion, from masking without realizing
I was masking. And I will say that it gaveme a lot more like compassion on the topic
of addiction, because, like, I was like,oh, a lot of people are dealing with,
like, extreme levels of fatigue forreasons they're not even aware of, right,
(23:46):
right?
Sol Smith (23:46):
No, totally. And that's, you know, one reason why a lot of us have made
it so far without recognizing that we'reautistic is there are a lot of dots to
connect. Like, you don't recognizesomething like that. I didn't recognize my
my eating disorder was connected to thefact that I can't stand the seams on my
socks, and is connected to the fact that Ican't touch chalkboards, which is
(24:09):
connected to the fact that I have troublewith friendships. You know, those things
don't seem like they would be connected,right? But, but here, but here they are.
You know, they're all connected by ournervous system,
Robert Kuang (24:18):
especially through critical thinking of like, oh yeah, eating. Like,
you know, you're trying to figure it outthrough critical thinking, and oftentimes
it's confusing, yeah,
Sol Smith (24:27):
yeah, yeah. Totally. You just Yeah. You go down these, these singular
paths, and they don't, yeah, they don'tlead to each other. So it becomes really
hard to connect all these dots and then,and then, once you start putting it all
together, it's like this web work ofinformation, and it's, it's really
addictive to sit and unpack your life, youknow, it really is.
Robert Kuang (24:46):
I remember meditation, a Buddhist meditation teacher said that one
of his things is studying can be a littlebit addictive for him, you know, yeah, you
just gotta, you just gotta acknowledge it,honor it. You know, we all, we're all
human. Yeah, right. But I never seeing itthrough the lens of, like, stimming or
you're just feeling restless. It can helpfor me, at least not over complicate these
(25:10):
things as well, to be like, this is asymptom. Okay, let's check in with how you
are right now.
Sol Smith (25:15):
Yeah, definitely. And I, like, one of the biggest things that I've done
for myself since being since recognizingthis is allowing myself to fidget like
that, by itself, has changed so much. Youknow, I have fidget toys at hand all the
time, and it has just allowed me to thinkin a more focused way, and it's allowed me
(25:35):
to pay attention in different ways. Andit's just like, just by letting go of that
shame and just letting myself do itbecause I used to fidget, but like in my
pocket, or I'd fidget, like under the deskor something like that, and, you know,
trying to disguise my fidgeting, but itreally helps you pay attention. It just,
it really does. And just allowing yourselfto do that, that's been a game changer.
You know, I collect fidget toys now. I'vegotten pretty decent at solving a Rubik's
(25:59):
Cube, you know?
Robert Kuang (26:01):
Right! You're- one of your kid or your kids are like champions,
right? A little bit,
Unknown (26:06):
Yeah, yeah. All my kids have now competed in competitive Rubix cubing, and
they're all better than me. Now, my thirdkid, she's a 16 she can solve in six
seconds, and has gotten really good. She'sin the top 100 in a couple different
events, and she's going to the WorldChampionships in a couple months. So it's
(26:26):
really exciting. It's a great sport. Tonsof neurodivergence there. It's just a
really wholesome sport. It's, yeah, Irecommend it. And yeah, the sort of like
monotropic focus that she has on Cubing isamazing. She'll spend at least two hours a
day doing this. And it's very much a stimfor her to just be able to do this. She
(26:48):
writes down her time. She gets her averageof 100 then she does another average of
100 and with all the different cubes, andit's beautiful.
Robert Kuang (26:55):
Yeah, I find a little bit of that comes out as a plant person, if
you're like collecting plants, you make aschedule, it's soothing. A lot of people
relate to it that way, but everyone hassomething. My partner loves to knit and
crochet.
Sol Smith (27:09):
Uh huh, yeah, it's just, that's a great one. I'm really jealous of that,
because anytime you're creating something,I always think, God, that's a good stem.
You know, I've seen people knit or crochetin, like, faculty meetings. And I've been
like, that's a good one, because you'reyou're fidgeting, but you're creating
something, and somehow it's a little bitmore socially acceptable because there's
productivity associated with it. But,yeah,
Robert Kuang (27:31):
That is more socially acceptable. You're totally right. There
are definitely other fidgets that maybe isa little more like, keep it to yourself,
definitely. That's a very You're right.There's a social factor to it. That's that
works. And you also talk about bottoms upthinking, which we kind of especially with
all of these subject matters and hobbies,I think they attract people who tend to
have like the outside of the box thinking,rather than the top down model. And you
(27:55):
say it is hard to detect bottom upthinking within ourselves, but for me, it
is the most distinguishing aspect of beingautistic. My comment and reflection that
came up was that I find this can makeautistic people particularly good at
paradoxes, meaning they can sort ofdeconstruct themselves or situations and
(28:16):
problems better than other people, butwithout sacrificing their authenticity,
which sounds very abstract, but I'm, youknow, I don't know if that resonates.
Sol Smith (28:25):
Yeah, no, it does. And there is a, yeah, there's a lot of abstraction with
bottom up thinking, but yeah,deconstruction is huge. In fact, the next
book that I'm hoping will come out is allabout deconstructing a lot of our
socialization, and it's written with withboth neuro types in mind, just to sort of
like, free us up from a lot of the sort oftop down ways that that we've defined
(28:49):
ourselves, like, like, things like gradesand money and things like this that we
seem to not give enough thought to, butbut bottom up thinkers do. And so
different examples of bottom up thinkingis, like, if I'm holding 11 pennies in my
hand and I say, What's this? Some peoplemight say that's 11 cents, but to me,
like, I see 11 different objects. They'reall made in different years. They made out
(29:14):
of different material. They've haddifferent like, lifespans. They've gone
through different pockets. They've beenused a different number of times. Like,
even though they have this sort of setvalue, some of them might be actually more
valuable than others, because they've comefrom different mints at different times.
And, you know, I have one penny that Ifound that's from 1869 and it's worth $11
which is a lot for a penny, you know, butI can also just go use it as a penny
(29:36):
somewhere. And so, so these objects arenot really just identical copies of each
other, but top down thinking creates thisshortcut so that they are the best example
that I thought of. And I thought of thisafter I wrote the book, and when I was
recording the audio book, I begged my mypublisher, I said, Can I please add this
(29:58):
page? And she wouldn't let me. Yeah, butit's a great example that came from
teaching is I used to teach about medialiteracy. So what we would do is analyze
print advertisements, and in order to getstudents to try and look at the different
levels of meaning in a printadvertisement, I had them look at three
(30:19):
things. So I we practiced this. I'd put aprint ad up, and I said, level one is,
what do you literally see in this picture?Just name what you're looking at. And I
said, level two is, what is the intendedmessage? Like, what is the advertiser
saying? And almost anybody can get this,you know, it's what, you know, what the ad
(30:39):
what statement is the ad making. And Isaid, then level three is, what is the
cultural stereotype that is being used todeliver this message? You know, how is it
communicating through what like, whatknowns, or is it using? And so it's a
really fun way to, sort of, like, get athow we construct beauty, how we construct,
yeah, you know, racial stereotypes, allsorts of things. So I put the first one up
(31:02):
there. It's a coke ad from the 50s. And Isay, Okay, what do we see here? And all
the students demonstrated top down,thinking. They look at the ad and they go,
Coke is delicious and refreshing. And Igo, No, no, no, no. What do you see level
one? What do you see here? And they go,happy people like Coke. And I go, No, no,
no. What do you see in the ad? And theysay coke makes you happy? And I'm like,
(31:24):
No, you see people in swimsuits at thebeach holding coke bottles, smiling. They
jump straight to level two, so the topdown thinking is going straight to the
interpretation of what they're seeing,because all of that data is too much to
think about, so they wipe it clean andboil it down to one message, and that's
(31:48):
what so top down, thinking creates theseshortcuts. Instead of analyzing all of the
objects, it just communicates thismessage. Coke makes you happy for me, I
have to look at it and then interpret it,and then step back again, and it's just,
it's wild to me that I didn't catch howdifferently I was thinking from everybody
else in the room all those years.
Robert Kuang (32:07):
Yeah, my partner is teaching now at a university in Vancouver, and it's
been interesting, kind of being like,hearing a little bit second hand of, like,
what kids are like these days, and youknow, the ongoing discourse around
literacy, and to me, what you're talkingabout, to me, is related to the problems
(32:29):
we're seeing with both media literacy, butalso just literacy in general, quite
frankly, just the way that criticalthinking has sort of crushed our ability
to move beyond it.
Sol Smith (32:39):
Yes, no, definitely. Yeah, we've really leaned a lot on critical
thinking, and a lot of what happens inschool even looks like critical thinking,
but it's not. I mean, for example, if youlike, watch a documentary about Flat
Earthers, a lot of what they do soundslike critical thinking, but it's not, you
know, like, like they're presentingevidence, they're making a case, but it's
(33:00):
all wrong, but their brain feels like likeit feels like they're knocking pins over
it. So it feels like critical thinking,but it's really not. In school does that a
lot where, basically, you come up with anargument, now do your research to support
your argument. That's not really criticalthinking. Now you're conclusion shopping.
You're looking for who agrees with you andsupporting your argument, you know, and
(33:22):
right? And so that's kind of like ourpolitical discourse gets us there. And,
you know, because we're trying to workfast, we're trying to show outcomes
instead of looking at the process. And Ifind all that stuff very frustrating,
yeah, so I feel like, in lots of ways,with the glut of information out there,
that that information literacy should bethe number one thing that we're teaching.
(33:42):
Yeah, you know, from just kindergarten onup, is like, how do you responsibly
access, analyze and use information? Ifeel like we're dropping the ball on that
pretty hard.
Robert Kuang (33:52):
Yeah, i The world doesn't make it very easy, especially right now.
That's just, I mean, for the bottom line,there's just a surge of crap you have to
sit through for everyone, and it's havinga tangible impact on people's brains and
relationships and everything. And I'm, I'mlike, feeling old now because I'm like,
Wow, I'm seeing this. And, yeah, yeah,related to this. You know, you're a big
(34:14):
advocate of unschooling, and I probablydon't know enough about it to make
distinctions from like, just homeschoolingor other alternatives, but you talk about
it as where the student is allowed todirect studies based on their intrinsic
interests, rather than adhering to like astrict curriculum. So can you talk a
little bit about why you support that, andwhat have you seen be generated out of
(34:37):
that environment?
Sol Smith (34:38):
Yeah, yeah, unschooling is, yeah, it's a method of homeschooling where
you don't have this idea of what kidsshould know at different ages, and
instead, you just make a lot of thingsavailable to them, like, if they want a
book, or they they are interested in acertain subject, you know, if they get
into something like the Civil War, like,hey, let's take a trip and see some
battlefields. And here's. A documentary.Here's a book. You follow their lead to
(35:03):
try and see what it is that they'reinterested in. From that, the idea is they
will eventually cover the things that theyneed to before they hit a more formal
readiness for a formal education.Essentially, most of what you're seeing in
lower grades isn't really teaching, it's alot of student management. And like, if
(35:23):
you go to a kindergarten or a first gradeclassroom, you know, bless those teachers
hearts, it's really hard to control 31stgraders, but so most of what's going on
that day is like, sit still, put your feeton the ground, hands to yourself, single
file line. As far as solid teaching goes,it's really not very much with like, for
example, teaching somebody how to read,you don't really need to. Kids can learn
(35:47):
how to read by you sitting and reading tothem and by answering their questions, but
we do this thing where we're drilling themon reading. And I read a great quote once
that said, if we started teaching kids, ifwe had started having classes for newborns
about how to walk within two years,everybody would think that you couldn't
learn how to walk without a class, andthat essentially, you know, learning is
(36:09):
just a really natural process. It's whatwe do. And you could just learn basically
nothing until you're 11 or 12, and youcould catch up within months with
everybody else, because there really isn'tthat much that's going on. We have this
notion of, like, what you need to know togo out into the world, you know, as if
we're all like, these factory pieces thatneed to be stamped out. That's not really
(36:31):
how the world works. And no one's reallygetting that. And it's never made anybody
perfect. So it's a much better idea toembrace this idea of, like, diversity,
letting people chase their interests,because, yeah, intrinsic value keeps
people interested. I mean, this is thewhole problem with with people's executive
function, ADHD, ADHD, er especially, isthere. They don't get dopamine from doing
(36:53):
a task they're not interested in. So theyseem really inattentive in school. They
seem bored in school because they are sothey'll procrastinate a lot and let the
cortisol do the work instead of thedopamine do the work, and it's unhealthy
and it is just gives them terriblemessages about themselves and everything
else, but if you let them do what they'reinterested in, they would end up forming a
(37:16):
much better self opinion and feel Muchmore accomplished about themselves. My
kids, when we went moved to homeschoolingduring the lockdown, everybody was in
their synchronous zoom rooms. So we hadsix people, because my wife was in college
and I was teaching college, and there wasjust no way that we could all be doing
this at the same time. There wasn't enoughspace in the house for six different zoom
(37:38):
meetings at once, you know. So, so, so wepulled the kids out and had them
homeschool, and basically made availableto them the resources that they needed. We
gave them outlines of what their class,what, you know, fourth grade class, might
be doing this year, what a sixth gradeclass might be doing this year, just
really general ones, and then, like, letthem loose. And it really worked, like
(38:03):
they worked together. They shared booksthat were interesting. They got really
into different subjects. My son, who's 19,is he's got to be one of the leading
authorities on crustaceans in the country.Like he knows so much about crabs, he
makes crab art. He makes like just amazingpaintings of them. He knows the way that
(38:25):
they're, you know, their family trees, howthey've evolved. Has all of this stuff
sketched out, and has just this reallybeautiful appreciation for it, and it's
just led him to understanding so muchabout all kinds of different subjects. My
daughter, who's into Rubik's cubing, shehas gotten so into that, like when she
(38:45):
went back to school, which she wanted todo, she was so closed off. She was so anti
social. She wouldn't let kids at theschool look at her face. She wore a mask
all day. She wouldn't eat at school. Shewouldn't let the teachers say her name,
like just completely shy. Then she watchesthis documentary about speed cubers and
decides that her it's her life's missionto meet these two guys in this
(39:07):
documentary, and she works really hard atthis six months later, she's going up
against these two guys. Then she gets intothis whole community, meets other
neurodivergent kids who want the best outof each other. And now she's in high
school. She's got a 4.9 GPA because shewants to go to a very selective college,
because they have a great cubing club,like she's made this the center of her
(39:28):
world, and it's really put her on thisvery social track and this very academic
track, and it's just been because we'vereally stayed out of her way. And instead
of saying, Wow, don't waste your time onCubing. We were like, yes, you want to go
to a competition. We'll make it happen.You want to do this. We'll make it happen,
right, right? And by just trying toembrace what they want to do as much as we
can, it's led them to really excel at thethings that they love, instead of, you
(39:54):
know, made them be like, Oh, well, what Ilike isn't important. What's important is
this stuff. Yeah. Yeah, you know, which isjust a totally different relationship with
with school.
Robert Kuang (40:02):
Yeah, and like you said, this would have been, if it had been a
different interest, it would have been thesame thing, you know, it's not necessarily
about what they chose, but it was aboutthe level of motivation, meaning and
engagement, right. And right out of thatcame a lot of benefits for her, but also
just, you know, in life in general, forexample, education, like you're saying,
(40:24):
but they were just, like, benefits thatcame along with her pursuit.
Sol Smith (40:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that we just kind of forget this, that,
you know, we get so caught up in these,the things you're supposed to know, you're
supposed to get an A that it alienates usfrom the process. We assume that everybody
learns in the same way, and just we allget this terrible message about ourselves,
and it stops us from believing inourselves. And you know, instead of just
(40:52):
sort of embracing what somebody isinterested in and making them feel like
they're empowered, they can make theirchoices. And you know, most of the time
they're going to make good choices. And ifthey're, if they're not going to make good
choices, how is that any worse thanforcing them to make good choices? You
know, as long as you're keeping them safe,obviously, right?
Robert Kuang (41:14):
And you kind of to go back on your point about the positive impact as
far as, like, socialization with yourchild and everything. I mean, you
highlight this in the book, but theimportance of friendship, I think, is so
key for people with neurodivergence andautism, because, like you say, it can be
easy at times to become very co dependent.But I think just socialization when you're
(41:37):
on the spectrum of any kind is can becomekey to your personal transformation, you
know. And it's just like, everybody needsfriends, you know, typical people need
friends too, but it's just like, so vital.There's something about that connection
that is so key in its meaning, yeah,
Sol Smith (41:55):
Yeah. And I think, you know, different people have different social
needs, but a lot of times, yeah, theAutistics will end up being a lot lonelier
because we form friendships in differentways, and can feel like an outcast and
stop trying a lot of times andneurotypicals to not get too sciency about
(42:20):
it. One of the major differences is justthat we don't socialize into our roles the
same way that a neurotypical does. Theyidentify with the role that they're
playing in life, if that makes sense, andthey are in rhythm with themselves, okay,
dang. How do I get into this? Essentially,they make friendships by being in close
(42:41):
proximity to each other for extendedperiods of time, and that's kind of
enough. They fall into rhythm with eachother, like small talk is a good example.
Two people meeting each other and talkingabout things that are low risk. You're
making general observations about yourimmediate surroundings, so no one's going
to be wrong. And basically it's likepassing a ball back and forth, and not
(43:02):
trying to beat the other person, buttrying to just get a rally going. And so
by doing this, they kind of get into arhythm together, and they get comfortable
together until they might get deeper anddeeper in their conversations next week or
the week after. And so they're all theselittle movements that happen in a
friendship that get deeper and morevulnerable over time. And Autistics, since
(43:23):
we are not usually wired with the samesocial connections and or awareness, we
miss a lot of that. Like, we think oftalking as an exchange of information. And
if somebody's talking about the fact thatit's Monday or that it's sunny, we're
like, we know that this is boring. Wedon't want to talk about small talk,
right? Like there's on off switch attimes. Yeah, right. And so we're not going
(43:47):
to get into rhythm this way, right? Andso. And so when we're forming friendships
with a neurotypical, that reciprocalrelationship of depth, we risk feeling
cold by not matching their depth, or werisk over sharing and kind of cringing
them out lots of different ways that thefriendship can be sort of sullied or
ruined, and we feel rejected, and we don'tknow why, or we can even become the
(44:08):
person's kind of safe zone where they'relike, Wow, I feel so safe sharing with
you. They can just share anything andunburden themselves, but they don't really
want to invite you to the party, becausethey don't want you to see them that way,
you know. So, so there's all thesedifferent like levels of friendship that
we just kind of make just kind of miss outon, but together, we tend to form
friendships through mutual interests.
Robert Kuang (44:27):
Yeah? So, I mean, that's the that's sort of the magic when you Yeah, I
know this show has gotten really popular,um, love of the spectrum, you know. And
you can imagine all of these socializationthings that can be a little bit tricky,
being amped up a little bit when you'retrying to get cues from like, are we more
than friends now, or trying to read quote,unquote subtext between the lines, it can
(44:51):
be really difficult, right? So, but Ithink when you form really good bonds,
even with all of that in mind, I have allof my friendships probably are
neurodivergent. On some way. I'm justbeing honest. You know, once you settle in
and you've built that, spent that time andbuilt that trust, like anybody else would,
it's, it's, like, it's so deep that it's,it's, it's hard to just unwrap that, you
(45:14):
know? And I love that.
Sol Smith (45:15):
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And yeah, most friendships do end up being
neurodivergent. I mean, a great example mywife is ADHD. She didn't believe she was
ADHD, because everybody does this. And Iwas like, who everybody? All of her
friends, right? And I'm like, okay, like,let's unwrap this a little bit. So, you
know, you look at something like, I wantto say it's 11% of people, 11 to 14% are
(45:36):
ADHD. And that doesn't seem huge, but ifyou put 100 people in a room. Do you
really want to talk to more than 11 ofthem? You know, like, it's sort of a self
selecting thing and Autistics, likebetween four and 5% something like that.
It might be a little higher, but do youreally want to talk more to more than four
or five or date more than four or fivepeople out of 100 probably not. So there
(45:58):
are enough people to choose from. You justhave to run into them enough. So the real
challenge is for Autistics to putthemselves out there, because school is
usually not the best place for us to meetpeople. That proximity doesn't work if
there's not enough diversity in thatschool system. So we so we still have to
go out and meet people like you know, justto be completely cliche, a Star Trek
(46:19):
convention, right? We're gonna meet someAutistics there a renaissance fair. Oh,
you definitely will Star Trek, right,right, yeah, a speed cubing competition.
You're going to meet a lot of Autistics,right? So you put yourself into these
positions to meet people around aninterest, then you start forming those
bonds, and it can become, yeah, reallytight and positive social interaction.
(46:40):
Really helps with stress. It really helpswith anxiety. It makes your life more
manageable. So when we get rejected a lotearly on, and pull back, become completely
introverted, make that part of ouridentity that we're introverts, we don't
like to be with people, it can be reallydetrimental to our to our mental health.
We so I always tell people, like, try topick a group that you're going to join,
(47:02):
like on meetup or something like that. Tryto pick a an event and go three times. You
know, give it three chances, because thefirst time you're probably going to be too
nervous, right? The second time, secondtimes are always the scariest, because you
kind of know what to expect. Expect. Thethird time, you might be able to tell if
you're enjoying this or not, right? Sojust, you know, you just have to take that
(47:24):
risk, because if it pays off, it's goingto be a lot better than staying home. Yeah.
Robert Kuang (47:29):
I mean, I think I definitely tend to ruminate less when I am making
myself explore the city and go enjoy artsand culture. When we have access to them.
It's so important to do these things, andI will sometimes, quote, unquote, make
myself do it, because the dopamine oflike, I'm gonna go out tonight is just not
hitting. But right after I've done thatand I'm on my way home, 99% of time, I was
(47:53):
like, I'm glad we did that and enjoyed anight out that we might not have
otherwise. Yeah,
Sol Smith (47:57):
Right, right. No, there's like, the four or five times in my 22 year
marriage that my wife and I were invitedto parties and we went, I would go, like,
I was, like, why don't we do this moreoften? Like, this is really fun. Like, how
about that? Great
Robert Kuang (48:10):
next year, same time? Okay.
Sol Smith (48:13):
Exactly. And so, yeah, you really do get something out of it. And you
know, in lieu of that, like, online spacesare a good place to start. I've started an
online community. It's neuro spicycommunity.com, it's it's great. We've got
members all over the world, from dozens ofcountries. It's just been a great place
for us to talk about ruminating less likewhen you talk about your problem and
(48:36):
somebody understands it, it's like, itcompletes that cycle. You're not stuck
with it anymore. Somebody has heard youand understands it. You don't even have to
come up with a solution necessarily, somuch as like, just to hear somebody else
say, Oh my God, I've had that, a problemlike that, and relate to it. And that's an
alien experience for a lot of us who'veclosed off for a long time. And it just
(48:58):
helps you sleep at night, you know, toconnect with people this way?
Robert Kuang (49:02):
Yeah, I think we can, because we're such great overthinkers, I
can find it hard to believe that you justneed to talk to somebody else, or just go
touch grass, to have a new pathway ofthinking, or a new magical scenario of
possibility, right? Because sometimes I'mright to maybe too full of myself, I don't
(49:23):
know, but it's like, oh yeah. Like, youjust need to let go a little bit, and
maybe a different perspective will comeout of this, or a different way of
thinking, and we don't have to be rigidwith that, right?
Sol Smith (49:33):
Yeah, right. No, I agree. And as far as being too full of yourself, I'm
so guilty of that, you know, because whenI was when I was officially diagnosed,
which I was, it felt important for my job,and it was free for me with my with my
insurance plan at the time, the one of thefirst feelings I felt was a morning,
because I always thought that I was veryspecial and unique in a positive way. And
(49:56):
now I felt like, Oh no, as an autistic,I'm never going to. Be valued, and I'm
just autistic, you know, and I justallowed myself to feel that sort of like,
you know, loss of identity, loss ofindividualism, before I realized that I
was really gaining an identity andgaining, you know, camaraderie and all
sorts of things. But it took me a lotbecause, yeah, you do kind of have to get
(50:18):
over yourself and step back and yeah,meeting somebody else who's had these same
problems, and you let your guard down,it's amazing to really let that in. Yeah?
Robert Kuang (50:28):
And if folks who are trying to see if they can get a diagnosis or
trying to understand this, or just want toreach out and connect with you in some
way, what's the best way to reach you?
Sol Smith (50:39):
Yeah, you can email me at soul, at Professorsol.com and soul is just Sol,
or you can come to the website,Professorsol.com and reach me from there. Awesome.
Robert Kuang (50:49):
Okay, is there anything else that you'd like to, sort of, I like to
say, put on the table before we wrap up ofthings that's currently on your mind, or
things that just you want to share?
Sol Smith (50:59):
If anything I feel, I feel really, I feel really lucky to be in the
in the right place at the right time withthis, and to have a sense of purpose with
my work that was led like even though Ilove education and I loved teaching, being
able to help people through thistransition from recognizing your autistic
(51:21):
to living a better life has just been so,so meaningful for me. Yeah?
Robert Kuang (51:27):
Thank you for saying that, and also thank you for broadening this
conversation. This was something thathelped me as well, in some ways, so
awesome. Yeah, thank you for today asusual. So All right, thank
Sol Smith (51:38):
you so much. Let's do it again.
Music.
Robert Kuang (00:07):
Welcome to side by side, a podcast where I Robert Kuang take you
inside conversations with artists,creatives, healers and warriors taking the
charge in their transformational story.
Today's returning guest is Sol Smith, theauthor of The Autistics guide to self
(00:28):
discovery, and a certified autismspecialist who is autistic, dyslexic and
living with ADHD. He spent more than twodecades as a college professor before
shifting his professional focus tocoaching other autistic and ADHD people to
gain autonomy in their lives. Soulspeaking skills have earned him a
following of hundreds of 1000s on Tiktokand led to educational seminars about
(00:52):
neurodiversity with corporations aroundthe world.
In this conversation, we dive inside thedifferent paths for diagnosis, the
scientific and social factors that impactallistic and autistic people, and
different road maps towards selfacceptance, fulfillment and community.
You can find more side by side episodes atsidebyside podcast.podbean.com,
(01:18):
and if you're working on a purpose drivenwriting project. I've opened a few one on
one coaching spots this season. You canlearn more or book a discovery call at WWW
dot Robert Kuang home.com,
okay, so I have another returning guest onside by side. It was such a pleasure to
(01:43):
connect with you the first time on mypodcast, and you were just so generous and
willing to say yes and to speak on thistopic. And then I'm not sure how long
later you have your book, your next book,The Autistics guide to self discovery. So
welcome back. Sol Smith.
Sol Smith (01:59):
hi. Thank you so much for having me again. It's great.
Robert Kuang (02:01):
So congrats on your book that's going to be coming out in a couple
weeks here. How was the process overall,getting this book started, and what's been
the journey so far for you?
Sol Smith (02:10):
Gosh, you know, it's been really great. I have been, you know, doing
a lot of coaching with Autistics and ADHDfolk, and lots of presence on on social
media. And somebody reached out to me froma who works at the San Francisco Writers
Conference. She said, Hey, I really thinkthat you ought to come up here. I think
(02:32):
you should come to the Writers Conference.And I was like, oh, gosh, I really should,
but it's been a while since I've been to awriters conference, and I don't have
anything ready. And she goes, No, I reallythink you should. And so I was like, okay,
it just seemed like a sign that, why not?
So I registered for the conference. I gotup there, and I hadn't been there for
years, and I have a background in writing.Yeah, I met with a couple agents and
(02:57):
publishers, and they just jumped right onthe project. You know, I wrote up a really
brief proposal on the way up there. I madea mind map of what I would like to talk
about in the book, just sort of a road mapfor what people can expect in their
journey once they realize they'reautistic, and they just kind of jumped on
(03:18):
it. It was a really rewarding process. Itwas very exciting.
Robert Kuang (03:21):
Yeah, I don't think people are aware that. First of all, some people
may not be aware there are writingconferences and writer conferences, good
point. And secondly, I love that. Youknow, when I think of those, it's a chance
for people to connect and share their workand everything, but you went there also
just specific to network and withsomething in mind, as far as, like, a
(03:43):
pitch and that something tangible reallyhappened from that. I just want to
reiterate that for the people who arefeeling a little doom and gloom, I
suppose,
Sol Smith (03:51):
yeah. No, that's a good point. Yeah, writers conferences, yeah. Usually
you have authors, you have agents, youhave publishers, and they get together and
talk about the industry, the state of theindustry, different trends. Talk about
writing process, and it's, it's a niceoverall, very positive experiences. And
you have authors from every level ofcareer there, usually people have a pitch
(04:11):
in mind. They have something that they,you know, somebody they've picked out
who's going to be there, that they want totalk to. They arrange these meetings
between you and agent or publisher. And,you know, in the past, when I've done it,
it's it, you know, you get positivefeedback. Everybody's very nice. But this
time, I had this big Tik-Tok following,and I had a really cohesive message. Just
(04:32):
everything kind of fell into place, and itjust felt really good.
Robert Kuang (04:34):
And I think this topic about autism and neurodivergence is more
important than ever. And yet I understandit's kind of more the stakes are higher in
some ways for people, right? Yeah, I'mcurious how you're navigating the
conversation as you're writing this book,but also seeing things maybe rapidly
change around you, but also some thingsmaybe you saw coming. I'm curious how
(04:56):
you're navigating like 2025 specifically,with this topic.
Sol Smith (05:01):
yeah, yeah, um, you know, overall, one thing that's really
encouraging is the much better vocabularywe have for understanding ourselves now,
yeah, than we used to have, right? Like,overall, this is the case that you still
have people who are who are undereducatedabout autism, but I'm talking to people in
their 20s, in their teens who understandtheir neurodivergence in a way that, gosh,
(05:24):
I wish I did at their age. You know, itwould have been so, so great and, you
know, and that's not even to mention thevocabulary we have for sexuality and
gender identity, all these other ways thatwe understand ourselves better and have
been allowed to be introspective in waysthat we weren't in the 80s and 90s when I
(05:45):
was growing up, right? That's veryexciting stuff. Then we get to 2025, and
at the end of this, you know, somewhattroubling presidential campaign, and the
beginning of this somewhat troublingpresidential regime. And essentially, you
know what we're seeing here is, this is anage old strategy, which is to not look at
(06:07):
the facts, not look at data, not look atresearch, which all exists out there, but
instead to speak very loudly to people'snervous systems and make them scared.
Yeah, yeah. You know, yeah. So people areloss averse they have, like our nervous
systems. We're just anxious people becauseof the way we evolved, we stayed very safe
(06:28):
by being very suspicious of differentrustles in the bushes, being very
suspicious of everything we hear. And soour amygdala, which governs our sort of
fear, is very ready to jump, yeah. So it'seasy for somebody to stand up there and
scare people about autism. You know, thisis the new Boogeyman. Now again, you've
they know that that we've heard aboutautism. They know that we've heard that
(06:51):
that numbers are going up, but by justwalking past everything that we actually
know every all the ways that we'veactually increased our knowledge out
there. And also, I should add, by makingup numbers out of nowhere, they've been
able to just completely communicate tomass amount of people's amygdala,
something scary is going on. And then steptwo of that is, but we have the answers,
(07:16):
and we're going to take care of you,right, right? And so instead of any kind
of a logical argument at all, you havewhat can barely be called an emotional
argument. It's basically creating ananxiety in somebody and then offering them
the solution to that anxiety. And I mean,we see advertisers do this all the time,
but seeing it in a presidential campaignis really, really troubling. You know, our
(07:37):
thinking brain is very slow, right? Ourprefrontal cortex is does things very
slowly. If you have to sit and do you knowmultiplication of a two, two digit
numbers, you have to stop and think aboutit, most of us, and that's a slow process.
But if you see a snake, you'd have areally quick reaction. So so you'd have
(07:58):
one political party, their entire strategyseems to be just showing you snakes
everywhere, and then saying, Don't worry,don't worry, we can take care of these
snakes. And damn, it's effective.
Robert Kuang (08:09):
Yeah, yeah. I this is an interesting conversation, but there are
certain pipelines about for people withdisability that's very prevalent, and they
function in the way that's fear mongeredfor very specific reason in either
direction, at least for the United States,as far as political leanings, but it's
right, and yet the community that includespeople with autism are often weaponized
(08:33):
and used in ways that may or may notbenefit those people. So just wanted to
highlight why it's important to talk aboutthis, also from a place of mutual aid,
which I see from your work as well. Yeah,and you talk about identity, so I guess
I'll start there. Why is it important toutilize identity first language? We
(08:54):
typically associate that with somethinglike the LGBTQ community, but you're sort
of advocating that in general as a netpositive for people that can really
struggle with self awareness andunderstanding who we are and diagnosis and
all of that.
Sol Smith (09:07):
Yeah, and I think that really the neurodivergence as we are learning
more about ourselves and advocating forchanges that we have a lot to learn from,
the LGBTQ plus community that the pridemovement is so brilliant because it's
coming from a place where there were somechanging ideas about sexuality. There was
(09:32):
a little bit more openness, but thisopenness came in the language of
tolerance. Yeah, right. Like, you know, ifyou look at the 80s and 90s and you have
like, the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy.They're like, it's okay to be gay, just
don't talk about it, right? And then,basically, the attitude can be summed up
as, like, Hate the sin, love the sinner,and pride says, No, I don't have to
(09:54):
apologize for this. This is part of who Iam. If you're going to accept me, you need
to. Accept all of me, and I love who Ilove, and I'm going to be who I'm going to
be. And this is a very shamelessrepresentation of who they are. And of
course, they learned a lot from the BlackPanthers. You know, they learned a lot
from the civil rights movement. So I thinkthat we need to see this and recognize
(10:21):
that autism is not something to be cured.It's not an affliction that we have. It is
an identity we are autistic. It's notsomething that I carry with me. It's not
going to be taken from me, right? So, soit becomes really important to identify
with it and identify with other autisticpeople, even though we may not seem the
(10:42):
same at all because we're really a veryheavily marginalized group, unemployment
is really, really high, loneliness isreally, really high. Life expectancy is
really, really low. Our chance of dying ofsuicide is supposedly eight to nine times
higher than normal, so we're overrepresented in clinical settings. Every
(11:04):
aspect of our health seems to be lower,partially because we're not as believed.
So there's all kinds of ways that we needto be advocating for ourselves and that
the specific numbers are hard to come bybecause we were still under diagnosed.
Yeah, and there's, there's this myth thatwe're over diagnosing it, and yet we know
(11:25):
and it's under diagnosed. And this isespecially problematic for, again, you
know, women and minority races, becausethey present very differently than white
dudes do. All of the diagnostic criteriawas made out of observing, you know, upper
middle class white guys. So it's evenharder for them. And we think that it's
about 80% of adults who are women orminorities and are autistic are not
(11:51):
diagnosed. Yeah. So it's really, it'sreally hard to get, you know, specific
numbers. And you see numbers, um, fromvery reliable resources saying that, among
Autistics with college degrees,unemployment is between 70 and 85% and
this is compared to their generalpopulation, which is about 4.2%
Robert Kuang (12:12):
Wow,
Sol Smith (12:13):
that's a Yeah, that was a massive difference.
Robert Kuang (12:15):
I didn't realize it was that staggering. Wow,
Unknown (12:17):
Right, right. And you know, most of us have way more jobs than is. Is
typical. We can't really rely on it asmuch. We tend to be over educated and
underpaid, yeah, just all sorts of thingsthat that make it really important for us
to start paying attention to thismarginalized group.
Robert Kuang (12:35):
Yeah, and the meaning that we used to make out of all of these
statistics and patterns, right? Without alot of us realizing that this is a huge
swath, that people are experiencing thevery same thing that we were, you know,
very early on. And I think that's why it'simportant for your book to start with
understanding the different paths towardsdiagnosis or awareness, even whatever you
(12:57):
want to call it, you talk about how it'simportant to respect self diagnosis and
also the other different paths of becomingaware of your own autism. Why is that so
important, given some of the context wewere sharing?
Sol Smith (13:09):
Yeah, because access is a really big challenge in many places, it's
really expensive to get a diagnosis, and85% of doctors say that they are
undereducated for autistic patients, andwhich basically means that you even have
people working in diagnosis who are not asup to date as they could be. Just for
(13:32):
example, when I was my seeking a diagnosisfor my son, and the doctor was was really
hedging on this and saying, Well, he'smaking really good eye contact. And I
said, Okay, you know, right? And he said,I can see why you think you're autistic.
You're meeting all of the criteria, butyou're making really good eye contact. We
(13:52):
don't know that you had trouble withfriendships before age 12. And I was like,
You cannot build a case on that. I said. Isaid, Look, I said, you're gonna say that
he's making good eye contact. You justsaid that his IQ is higher than yours. I
said, You think he can't figure out how tofake eye contact. I mean, come on, he's
gotten by this far. And I said, Not onlythat, I said he's trans male, that means
(14:14):
he's 800% more likely to be autistic thancis gendered male. And the guy says, I
don't know that that's true. And I said,How do you not know that? Was that that's
true? That's what the statistics say. Andyou know, so here we have a diagnosing
clinician who did not know that that wasthe case. And I just find that really
frustrating. So we do need to respect thefact that we can learn a lot about
(14:35):
ourselves and that doctors are exposed tous for 45 minutes, maybe a couple hours.
It's in the under the most controlled ofimaginable conditions, they're great
conditions for masking it's not areciprocal relationship. They only have to
talk to you. You don't have to ask themabout them the like. It's very easy to
(14:57):
fake eye contact, and in a single room,I'm having trouble making out. Contact
over a computer
Robert Kuang (15:01):
well, and you know you're being assessed, right?
Sol Smith (15:04):
And you know you're being assessed, right? You know you're being
judged. All the attention is on you.
Robert Kuang (15:08):
Yeah, yeah. No, it's yeah. I often struggle with this, and I've
messaged you here and there about myexperience. It was like, well, it was
either being like, I'll put this down theline, or pay $3,500 with health, right,
right for a comprehensive assessment, orthe alternative was, like $300 for, like a
one hour assessment, but I don't want toput myself through that just for a
(15:31):
possibly and right? And there were allkinds of things that was coming up. And I
was like, mostly I just wanted to see ifthe care that is aimed towards people with
autism would support me, but I was, Irealized it was just kind of a wall, if
you will, between me figuring that out andeverything that's on the other side.
Sol Smith (15:50):
Yeah, definitely. And I mean, not only that, there's really, once you
are diagnosed, that's kind of it, you'rejust sort of set adrift at sea, because as
an adult, there isn't a lot in place. Youknow, like the knowledge is important,
yeah, you know, people say, Oh, don'ttrust self diagnosis. But like, you have
(16:10):
to advocate for yourself in order to evenget a diagnosis. So you already suspect
it, and most people already have suspectedit for, you know, one to three years
before they really seek a diagnosis, soyou already know at this point, then you
get the diagnosis and you find that itdoesn't change very much. You don't get
services. And it's wild, because you lookat all of the services that there are for
(16:34):
kids in school, and I'm not saying thatthey're sufficient, but they do have them
all different accommodations for kids inschool, different ways that they can help
them out. Once you turn 18, they just goaway and they don't seem to understand
that autistic kids turn into autisticadults. They don't grow out of it like
Robert Kuang (16:55):
they can toughen up or something right,
Sol Smith (16:58):
Exactly, yeah, and that's another thing, is that we hear a lot is,
well, you've made it this far. And I meanthat just completely right, that
completely discounts all of the strugglecan completely discounts all of the
cognitive energy that we've put intomaking it this far, all of the job
hopping, all of the you know, again, theloneliness, the ruined friendships, this
(17:20):
not knowing this about yourself can behazardous to your health. Yeah, literally,
yeah, yeah. So it's not a matter of like,you've made it this far. It's like, for
many of us, it's a miracle that I've madeit this far, and it's it would be
important to know, but it is very much outof reach for a lot of people. So we really
want to be affirming of people who havedone the work work. They've listened to
autistic voices. Listen to the experienceof autism because it sounds very different
(17:44):
than the diagnostic criteria. When youtalk to somebody who's lived the autistic
experience doesn't really sound the sameas the symptoms which are seen from the
outside.
Robert Kuang (17:53):
Yeah, it just occurred to me with we were just talking about assessment
for autism, and also, pretty much everyother condition these days is that one on
one clinical setting, but you can probablyspot certain things much quicker just
observing a bunch of kids playing witheach other. Yeah, I guess you can call
that a lateral thinking move.
Sol Smith (18:12):
Totally, yeah, you can. I mean, just for example, they've done experiments
in labs where they give a bunch of kidswho never met each other like toys to play
with, and within 30 minutes, they haveostracized the ADHD kid. You know, just
takes 30 minutes for them to know, andyet, it takes doctors all sorts of tests
to figure out if you're ADHD or not. Andit's the same thing with with autism. You
(18:35):
know, there's a 2017 study where, withcollege students, they show them
videotapes of different socialinteractions between different people, and
then they have them rate the likeabilityof the people in the videos, and all of
them rated the autistic people in thevideos as less likable. So like, we're
(18:56):
already being labeled. We're alreadybeing, you know, discounted by people,
yeah, and yet, yet, we have to fight for,you know, a diagnosis for this. And you
know, one of the reasons that people sayyou need to have the official diagnosis is
you're going to take resources away fromother people who need it. And I'm like,
where are these resources that I can take?Right? I'd love to know, yeah.
Robert Kuang (19:18):
And I want to highlight a quote real quick, since you were talking
about statistics already, this issomething from the book, Autistics
ruminate at rates far higher thanallistics do. Allistics being people
without autism, but maybe neurodivergentin some other way, often dwelling on
thoughts of guilt, sadness and angerdirected at the self. This is so common
(19:39):
among Autistics that it appears to beresponsible for nearly all the higher
rates of depression and self harm. So it'sgoing back to the full philosophical
leaning of like you should care aboutpeople, even if it doesn't directly impact
you. But there's so much that's impactingautistic people's lives that, you know, I
wish we could bridge the. At between thosewho maybe just can't understand the
(20:03):
intensity of that experience and justprovide greater community and support,
which I think your book really emphasizes,yeah, definitely.
Sol Smith (20:10):
And that's yeah, the philosophical question, should we care
about people who don't affect you? Wildthat we have to talk about that.
Robert Kuang (20:17):
But I go back to that as like, how can you not care about this. And
the only one of the things is like, oh,it's because it's not currently impacting
you directly enough.
Sol Smith (20:25):
Yeah, it's, it's, you know, I this is a problem of capitalism. Really,
the values that capitalism put in you arevery selfish. I hate to go off on the
tangent. It's just essentially, when youlook at the American dream as it stands,
is essentially to be so successful thatthe world's problems don't affect you, you
(20:46):
know. And I feel like that's, that's aterrible message. I feel like it should be
that your success helps other people toovercome the world's problems, or helps
the world's problems to be lighter, youknow. But that's maybe I watch too much
Star Trek, but, yeah, so we do have thesecultural values that are a little bit
askew, and I think that that really helpsdemonstrate that this is a social
(21:08):
disability. There's nothing wrong withautistic people besides the way that they
don't fit into this society, the valuesand the way we're treated. So being Yeah,
yeah, you know, so so, like, if we justhad a more flexible, more educated
society, we wouldn't be facing theseproblems like I was talking about that
2017 study about them rating less likablein 2022 the same researcher repeated the
(21:35):
study, but gave A test group a 30 minutepresentation about autistic traits, and
then they found that this completelymoderated the results, and they did not
find the autistic people less likable. Soonce you increase the education, it does
challenge people's, like, instinctivebeliefs. Yeah, people do change, and we
(21:57):
just don't have it there, like, like, wejust don't have it in place. And instead,
you know, we're faced with this massivechallenge of just existing, and so we
ruminate a lot. Our brains are over wired,and our default mode network, which is the
amount of activity happening in your brainwhen you're not doing anything else, is
42% higher on average, than an allisticperson's default mode network. So our
(22:22):
brains are very loud. They're very noisy,and they're mostly reviewing our
interactions, reviewing things, because weare constantly masking, constantly trying
to fit in. And instead of this being aninstinctive process, it's a very cognitive
process. So we're reviewing, criticizingourselves, and this just leads to a lot of
(22:43):
rejection, sensitivity, it leads to a lotof depression, self harm, unhealthy coping
mechanisms, like, you know, chemicaldependencies, eating disorders, all these
different ways to manage this surplus ofanxiety and shame, yeah,
Robert Kuang (22:59):
And sensory issues as well, right? It's not just, it's like both
pathological cognitive, but also just veryphysical as well, depending on, you know,
your particular experience. And it's just,it's a lot, and I never placed, you know,
my eating habits and my usage of cannabisto like anything around neurodivergence,
(23:21):
it was always like, a lot of like shame orotherwise, I just didn't care about it.
But I never realized it was out of, likeexhaustion, from masking without realizing
I was masking. And I will say that it gaveme a lot more like compassion on the topic
of addiction, because, like, I was like,oh, a lot of people are dealing with,
like, extreme levels of fatigue forreasons they're not even aware of, right,
(23:46):
right?
Sol Smith (23:46):
No, totally. And that's, you know, one reason why a lot of us have made
it so far without recognizing that we'reautistic is there are a lot of dots to
connect. Like, you don't recognizesomething like that. I didn't recognize my
my eating disorder was connected to thefact that I can't stand the seams on my
socks, and is connected to the fact that Ican't touch chalkboards, which is
(24:09):
connected to the fact that I have troublewith friendships. You know, those things
don't seem like they would be connected,right? But, but here, but here they are.
You know, they're all connected by ournervous system,
Robert Kuang (24:18):
especially through critical thinking of like, oh yeah, eating. Like,
you know, you're trying to figure it outthrough critical thinking, and oftentimes
it's confusing, yeah,
Sol Smith (24:27):
yeah, yeah. Totally. You just Yeah. You go down these, these singular
paths, and they don't, yeah, they don'tlead to each other. So it becomes really
hard to connect all these dots and then,and then, once you start putting it all
together, it's like this web work ofinformation, and it's, it's really
addictive to sit and unpack your life, youknow, it really is.
Robert Kuang (24:46):
I remember meditation, a Buddhist meditation teacher said that one
of his things is studying can be a littlebit addictive for him, you know, yeah, you
just gotta, you just gotta acknowledge it,honor it. You know, we all, we're all
human. Yeah, right. But I never seeing itthrough the lens of, like, stimming or
you're just feeling restless. It can helpfor me, at least not over complicate these
(25:10):
things as well, to be like, this is asymptom. Okay, let's check in with how you
are right now.
Sol Smith (25:15):
Yeah, definitely. And I, like, one of the biggest things that I've done
for myself since being since recognizingthis is allowing myself to fidget like
that, by itself, has changed so much. Youknow, I have fidget toys at hand all the
time, and it has just allowed me to thinkin a more focused way, and it's allowed me
(25:35):
to pay attention in different ways. Andit's just like, just by letting go of that
shame and just letting myself do itbecause I used to fidget, but like in my
pocket, or I'd fidget, like under the deskor something like that, and, you know,
trying to disguise my fidgeting, but itreally helps you pay attention. It just,
it really does. And just allowing yourselfto do that, that's been a game changer.
You know, I collect fidget toys now. I'vegotten pretty decent at solving a Rubik's
(25:59):
Cube, you know?
Robert Kuang (26:01):
Right! You're- one of your kid or your kids are like champions,
right? A little bit,
Unknown (26:06):
Yeah, yeah. All my kids have now competed in competitive Rubix cubing, and
they're all better than me. Now, my thirdkid, she's a 16 she can solve in six
seconds, and has gotten really good. She'sin the top 100 in a couple different
events, and she's going to the WorldChampionships in a couple months. So it's
(26:26):
really exciting. It's a great sport. Tonsof neurodivergence there. It's just a
really wholesome sport. It's, yeah, Irecommend it. And yeah, the sort of like
monotropic focus that she has on Cubing isamazing. She'll spend at least two hours a
day doing this. And it's very much a stimfor her to just be able to do this. She
(26:48):
writes down her time. She gets her averageof 100 then she does another average of
100 and with all the different cubes, andit's beautiful.
Robert Kuang (26:55):
Yeah, I find a little bit of that comes out as a plant person, if
you're like collecting plants, you make aschedule, it's soothing. A lot of people
relate to it that way, but everyone hassomething. My partner loves to knit and
crochet.
Sol Smith (27:09):
Uh huh, yeah, it's just, that's a great one. I'm really jealous of that,
because anytime you're creating something,I always think, God, that's a good stem.
You know, I've seen people knit or crochetin, like, faculty meetings. And I've been
like, that's a good one, because you'reyou're fidgeting, but you're creating
something, and somehow it's a little bitmore socially acceptable because there's
productivity associated with it. But,yeah,
Robert Kuang (27:31):
That is more socially acceptable. You're totally right. There
are definitely other fidgets that maybe isa little more like, keep it to yourself,
definitely. That's a very You're right.There's a social factor to it. That's that
works. And you also talk about bottoms upthinking, which we kind of especially with
all of these subject matters and hobbies,I think they attract people who tend to
have like the outside of the box thinking,rather than the top down model. And you
(27:55):
say it is hard to detect bottom upthinking within ourselves, but for me, it
is the most distinguishing aspect of beingautistic. My comment and reflection that
came up was that I find this can makeautistic people particularly good at
paradoxes, meaning they can sort ofdeconstruct themselves or situations and
(28:16):
problems better than other people, butwithout sacrificing their authenticity,
which sounds very abstract, but I'm, youknow, I don't know if that resonates.
Sol Smith (28:25):
Yeah, no, it does. And there is a, yeah, there's a lot of abstraction with
bottom up thinking, but yeah,deconstruction is huge. In fact, the next
book that I'm hoping will come out is allabout deconstructing a lot of our
socialization, and it's written with withboth neuro types in mind, just to sort of
like, free us up from a lot of the sort oftop down ways that that we've defined
(28:49):
ourselves, like, like, things like gradesand money and things like this that we
seem to not give enough thought to, butbut bottom up thinkers do. And so
different examples of bottom up thinkingis, like, if I'm holding 11 pennies in my
hand and I say, What's this? Some peoplemight say that's 11 cents, but to me,
like, I see 11 different objects. They'reall made in different years. They made out
(29:14):
of different material. They've haddifferent like, lifespans. They've gone
through different pockets. They've beenused a different number of times. Like,
even though they have this sort of setvalue, some of them might be actually more
valuable than others, because they've comefrom different mints at different times.
And, you know, I have one penny that Ifound that's from 1869 and it's worth $11
which is a lot for a penny, you know, butI can also just go use it as a penny
(29:36):
somewhere. And so, so these objects arenot really just identical copies of each
other, but top down thinking creates thisshortcut so that they are the best example
that I thought of. And I thought of thisafter I wrote the book, and when I was
recording the audio book, I begged my mypublisher, I said, Can I please add this
(29:58):
page? And she wouldn't let me. Yeah, butit's a great example that came from
teaching is I used to teach about medialiteracy. So what we would do is analyze
print advertisements, and in order to getstudents to try and look at the different
levels of meaning in a printadvertisement, I had them look at three
(30:19):
things. So I we practiced this. I'd put aprint ad up, and I said, level one is,
what do you literally see in this picture?Just name what you're looking at. And I
said, level two is, what is the intendedmessage? Like, what is the advertiser
saying? And almost anybody can get this,you know, it's what, you know, what the ad
(30:39):
what statement is the ad making. And Isaid, then level three is, what is the
cultural stereotype that is being used todeliver this message? You know, how is it
communicating through what like, whatknowns, or is it using? And so it's a
really fun way to, sort of, like, get athow we construct beauty, how we construct,
yeah, you know, racial stereotypes, allsorts of things. So I put the first one up
(31:02):
there. It's a coke ad from the 50s. And Isay, Okay, what do we see here? And all
the students demonstrated top down,thinking. They look at the ad and they go,
Coke is delicious and refreshing. And Igo, No, no, no, no. What do you see level
one? What do you see here? And they go,happy people like Coke. And I go, No, no,
no. What do you see in the ad? And theysay coke makes you happy? And I'm like,
(31:24):
No, you see people in swimsuits at thebeach holding coke bottles, smiling. They
jump straight to level two, so the topdown thinking is going straight to the
interpretation of what they're seeing,because all of that data is too much to
think about, so they wipe it clean andboil it down to one message, and that's
(31:48):
what so top down, thinking creates theseshortcuts. Instead of analyzing all of the
objects, it just communicates thismessage. Coke makes you happy for me, I
have to look at it and then interpret it,and then step back again, and it's just,
it's wild to me that I didn't catch howdifferently I was thinking from everybody
else in the room all those years.
Robert Kuang (32:07):
Yeah, my partner is teaching now at a university in Vancouver, and it's
been interesting, kind of being like,hearing a little bit second hand of, like,
what kids are like these days, and youknow, the ongoing discourse around
literacy, and to me, what you're talkingabout, to me, is related to the problems
(32:29):
we're seeing with both media literacy, butalso just literacy in general, quite
frankly, just the way that criticalthinking has sort of crushed our ability
to move beyond it.
Sol Smith (32:39):
Yes, no, definitely. Yeah, we've really leaned a lot on critical
thinking, and a lot of what happens inschool even looks like critical thinking,
but it's not. I mean, for example, if youlike, watch a documentary about Flat
Earthers, a lot of what they do soundslike critical thinking, but it's not, you
know, like, like they're presentingevidence, they're making a case, but it's
(33:00):
all wrong, but their brain feels like likeit feels like they're knocking pins over
it. So it feels like critical thinking,but it's really not. In school does that a
lot where, basically, you come up with anargument, now do your research to support
your argument. That's not really criticalthinking. Now you're conclusion shopping.
You're looking for who agrees with you andsupporting your argument, you know, and
(33:22):
right? And so that's kind of like ourpolitical discourse gets us there. And,
you know, because we're trying to workfast, we're trying to show outcomes
instead of looking at the process. And Ifind all that stuff very frustrating,
yeah, so I feel like, in lots of ways,with the glut of information out there,
that that information literacy should bethe number one thing that we're teaching.
(33:42):
Yeah, you know, from just kindergarten onup, is like, how do you responsibly
access, analyze and use information? Ifeel like we're dropping the ball on that
pretty hard.
Robert Kuang (33:52):
Yeah, i The world doesn't make it very easy, especially right now.
That's just, I mean, for the bottom line,there's just a surge of crap you have to
sit through for everyone, and it's havinga tangible impact on people's brains and
relationships and everything. And I'm, I'mlike, feeling old now because I'm like,
Wow, I'm seeing this. And, yeah, yeah,related to this. You know, you're a big
(34:14):
advocate of unschooling, and I probablydon't know enough about it to make
distinctions from like, just homeschoolingor other alternatives, but you talk about
it as where the student is allowed todirect studies based on their intrinsic
interests, rather than adhering to like astrict curriculum. So can you talk a
little bit about why you support that, andwhat have you seen be generated out of
(34:37):
that environment?
Sol Smith (34:38):
Yeah, yeah, unschooling is, yeah, it's a method of homeschooling where
you don't have this idea of what kidsshould know at different ages, and
instead, you just make a lot of thingsavailable to them, like, if they want a
book, or they they are interested in acertain subject, you know, if they get
into something like the Civil War, like,hey, let's take a trip and see some
battlefields. And here's. A documentary.Here's a book. You follow their lead to
(35:03):
try and see what it is that they'reinterested in. From that, the idea is they
will eventually cover the things that theyneed to before they hit a more formal
readiness for a formal education.Essentially, most of what you're seeing in
lower grades isn't really teaching, it's alot of student management. And like, if
(35:23):
you go to a kindergarten or a first gradeclassroom, you know, bless those teachers
hearts, it's really hard to control 31stgraders, but so most of what's going on
that day is like, sit still, put your feeton the ground, hands to yourself, single
file line. As far as solid teaching goes,it's really not very much with like, for
example, teaching somebody how to read,you don't really need to. Kids can learn
(35:47):
how to read by you sitting and reading tothem and by answering their questions, but
we do this thing where we're drilling themon reading. And I read a great quote once
that said, if we started teaching kids, ifwe had started having classes for newborns
about how to walk within two years,everybody would think that you couldn't
learn how to walk without a class, andthat essentially, you know, learning is
(36:09):
just a really natural process. It's whatwe do. And you could just learn basically
nothing until you're 11 or 12, and youcould catch up within months with
everybody else, because there really isn'tthat much that's going on. We have this
notion of, like, what you need to know togo out into the world, you know, as if
we're all like, these factory pieces thatneed to be stamped out. That's not really
(36:31):
how the world works. And no one's reallygetting that. And it's never made anybody
perfect. So it's a much better idea toembrace this idea of, like, diversity,
letting people chase their interests,because, yeah, intrinsic value keeps
people interested. I mean, this is thewhole problem with with people's executive
function, ADHD, ADHD, er especially, isthere. They don't get dopamine from doing
(36:53):
a task they're not interested in. So theyseem really inattentive in school. They
seem bored in school because they are sothey'll procrastinate a lot and let the
cortisol do the work instead of thedopamine do the work, and it's unhealthy
and it is just gives them terriblemessages about themselves and everything
else, but if you let them do what they'reinterested in, they would end up forming a
(37:16):
much better self opinion and feel Muchmore accomplished about themselves. My
kids, when we went moved to homeschoolingduring the lockdown, everybody was in
their synchronous zoom rooms. So we hadsix people, because my wife was in college
and I was teaching college, and there wasjust no way that we could all be doing
this at the same time. There wasn't enoughspace in the house for six different zoom
(37:38):
meetings at once, you know. So, so, so wepulled the kids out and had them
homeschool, and basically made availableto them the resources that they needed. We
gave them outlines of what their class,what, you know, fourth grade class, might
be doing this year, what a sixth gradeclass might be doing this year, just
really general ones, and then, like, letthem loose. And it really worked, like
(38:03):
they worked together. They shared booksthat were interesting. They got really
into different subjects. My son, who's 19,is he's got to be one of the leading
authorities on crustaceans in the country.Like he knows so much about crabs, he
makes crab art. He makes like just amazingpaintings of them. He knows the way that
(38:25):
they're, you know, their family trees, howthey've evolved. Has all of this stuff
sketched out, and has just this reallybeautiful appreciation for it, and it's
just led him to understanding so muchabout all kinds of different subjects. My
daughter, who's into Rubik's cubing, shehas gotten so into that, like when she
(38:45):
went back to school, which she wanted todo, she was so closed off. She was so anti
social. She wouldn't let kids at theschool look at her face. She wore a mask
all day. She wouldn't eat at school. Shewouldn't let the teachers say her name,
like just completely shy. Then she watchesthis documentary about speed cubers and
decides that her it's her life's missionto meet these two guys in this
(39:07):
documentary, and she works really hard atthis six months later, she's going up
against these two guys. Then she gets intothis whole community, meets other
neurodivergent kids who want the best outof each other. And now she's in high
school. She's got a 4.9 GPA because shewants to go to a very selective college,
because they have a great cubing club,like she's made this the center of her
(39:28):
world, and it's really put her on thisvery social track and this very academic
track, and it's just been because we'vereally stayed out of her way. And instead
of saying, Wow, don't waste your time onCubing. We were like, yes, you want to go
to a competition. We'll make it happen.You want to do this. We'll make it happen,
right, right? And by just trying toembrace what they want to do as much as we
can, it's led them to really excel at thethings that they love, instead of, you
(39:54):
know, made them be like, Oh, well, what Ilike isn't important. What's important is
this stuff. Yeah. Yeah, you know, which isjust a totally different relationship with
with school.
Robert Kuang (40:02):
Yeah, and like you said, this would have been, if it had been a
different interest, it would have been thesame thing, you know, it's not necessarily
about what they chose, but it was aboutthe level of motivation, meaning and
engagement, right. And right out of thatcame a lot of benefits for her, but also
just, you know, in life in general, forexample, education, like you're saying,
(40:24):
but they were just, like, benefits thatcame along with her pursuit.
Sol Smith (40:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that we just kind of forget this, that,
you know, we get so caught up in these,the things you're supposed to know, you're
supposed to get an A that it alienates usfrom the process. We assume that everybody
learns in the same way, and just we allget this terrible message about ourselves,
and it stops us from believing inourselves. And you know, instead of just
(40:52):
sort of embracing what somebody isinterested in and making them feel like
they're empowered, they can make theirchoices. And you know, most of the time
they're going to make good choices. And ifthey're, if they're not going to make good
choices, how is that any worse thanforcing them to make good choices? You
know, as long as you're keeping them safe,obviously, right?
Robert Kuang (41:14):
And you kind of to go back on your point about the positive impact as
far as, like, socialization with yourchild and everything. I mean, you
highlight this in the book, but theimportance of friendship, I think, is so
key for people with neurodivergence andautism, because, like you say, it can be
easy at times to become very co dependent.But I think just socialization when you're
(41:37):
on the spectrum of any kind is can becomekey to your personal transformation, you
know. And it's just like, everybody needsfriends, you know, typical people need
friends too, but it's just like, so vital.There's something about that connection
that is so key in its meaning, yeah,
Sol Smith (41:55):
Yeah. And I think, you know, different people have different social
needs, but a lot of times, yeah, theAutistics will end up being a lot lonelier
because we form friendships in differentways, and can feel like an outcast and
stop trying a lot of times andneurotypicals to not get too sciency about
(42:20):
it. One of the major differences is justthat we don't socialize into our roles the
same way that a neurotypical does. Theyidentify with the role that they're
playing in life, if that makes sense, andthey are in rhythm with themselves, okay,
dang. How do I get into this? Essentially,they make friendships by being in close
(42:41):
proximity to each other for extendedperiods of time, and that's kind of
enough. They fall into rhythm with eachother, like small talk is a good example.
Two people meeting each other and talkingabout things that are low risk. You're
making general observations about yourimmediate surroundings, so no one's going
to be wrong. And basically it's likepassing a ball back and forth, and not
(43:02):
trying to beat the other person, buttrying to just get a rally going. And so
by doing this, they kind of get into arhythm together, and they get comfortable
together until they might get deeper anddeeper in their conversations next week or
the week after. And so they're all theselittle movements that happen in a
friendship that get deeper and morevulnerable over time. And Autistics, since
(43:23):
we are not usually wired with the samesocial connections and or awareness, we
miss a lot of that. Like, we think oftalking as an exchange of information. And
if somebody's talking about the fact thatit's Monday or that it's sunny, we're
like, we know that this is boring. Wedon't want to talk about small talk,
right? Like there's on off switch attimes. Yeah, right. And so we're not going
(43:47):
to get into rhythm this way, right? Andso. And so when we're forming friendships
with a neurotypical, that reciprocalrelationship of depth, we risk feeling
cold by not matching their depth, or werisk over sharing and kind of cringing
them out lots of different ways that thefriendship can be sort of sullied or
ruined, and we feel rejected, and we don'tknow why, or we can even become the
(44:08):
person's kind of safe zone where they'relike, Wow, I feel so safe sharing with
you. They can just share anything andunburden themselves, but they don't really
want to invite you to the party, becausethey don't want you to see them that way,
you know. So, so there's all thesedifferent like levels of friendship that
we just kind of make just kind of miss outon, but together, we tend to form
friendships through mutual interests.
Robert Kuang (44:27):
Yeah? So, I mean, that's the that's sort of the magic when you Yeah, I
know this show has gotten really popular,um, love of the spectrum, you know. And
you can imagine all of these socializationthings that can be a little bit tricky,
being amped up a little bit when you'retrying to get cues from like, are we more
than friends now, or trying to read quote,unquote subtext between the lines, it can
(44:51):
be really difficult, right? So, but Ithink when you form really good bonds,
even with all of that in mind, I have allof my friendships probably are
neurodivergent. On some way. I'm justbeing honest. You know, once you settle in
and you've built that, spent that time andbuilt that trust, like anybody else would,
it's, it's, like, it's so deep that it's,it's, it's hard to just unwrap that, you
(45:14):
know? And I love that.
Sol Smith (45:15):
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And yeah, most friendships do end up being
neurodivergent. I mean, a great example mywife is ADHD. She didn't believe she was
ADHD, because everybody does this. And Iwas like, who everybody? All of her
friends, right? And I'm like, okay, like,let's unwrap this a little bit. So, you
know, you look at something like, I wantto say it's 11% of people, 11 to 14% are
(45:36):
ADHD. And that doesn't seem huge, but ifyou put 100 people in a room. Do you
really want to talk to more than 11 ofthem? You know, like, it's sort of a self
selecting thing and Autistics, likebetween four and 5% something like that.
It might be a little higher, but do youreally want to talk more to more than four
or five or date more than four or fivepeople out of 100 probably not. So there
(45:58):
are enough people to choose from. You justhave to run into them enough. So the real
challenge is for Autistics to putthemselves out there, because school is
usually not the best place for us to meetpeople. That proximity doesn't work if
there's not enough diversity in thatschool system. So we so we still have to
go out and meet people like you know, justto be completely cliche, a Star Trek
(46:19):
convention, right? We're gonna meet someAutistics there a renaissance fair. Oh,
you definitely will Star Trek, right,right, yeah, a speed cubing competition.
You're going to meet a lot of Autistics,right? So you put yourself into these
positions to meet people around aninterest, then you start forming those
bonds, and it can become, yeah, reallytight and positive social interaction.
(46:40):
Really helps with stress. It really helpswith anxiety. It makes your life more
manageable. So when we get rejected a lotearly on, and pull back, become completely
introverted, make that part of ouridentity that we're introverts, we don't
like to be with people, it can be reallydetrimental to our to our mental health.
We so I always tell people, like, try topick a group that you're going to join,
(47:02):
like on meetup or something like that. Tryto pick a an event and go three times. You
know, give it three chances, because thefirst time you're probably going to be too
nervous, right? The second time, secondtimes are always the scariest, because you
kind of know what to expect. Expect. Thethird time, you might be able to tell if
you're enjoying this or not, right? Sojust, you know, you just have to take that
(47:24):
risk, because if it pays off, it's goingto be a lot better than staying home. Yeah.
Robert Kuang (47:29):
I mean, I think I definitely tend to ruminate less when I am making
myself explore the city and go enjoy artsand culture. When we have access to them.
It's so important to do these things, andI will sometimes, quote, unquote, make
myself do it, because the dopamine oflike, I'm gonna go out tonight is just not
hitting. But right after I've done thatand I'm on my way home, 99% of time, I was
(47:53):
like, I'm glad we did that and enjoyed anight out that we might not have
otherwise. Yeah,
Sol Smith (47:57):
Right, right. No, there's like, the four or five times in my 22 year
marriage that my wife and I were invitedto parties and we went, I would go, like,
I was, like, why don't we do this moreoften? Like, this is really fun. Like, how
about that? Great
Robert Kuang (48:10):
next year, same time? Okay.
Sol Smith (48:13):
Exactly. And so, yeah, you really do get something out of it. And you
know, in lieu of that, like, online spacesare a good place to start. I've started an
online community. It's neuro spicycommunity.com, it's it's great. We've got
members all over the world, from dozens ofcountries. It's just been a great place
for us to talk about ruminating less likewhen you talk about your problem and
(48:36):
somebody understands it, it's like, itcompletes that cycle. You're not stuck
with it anymore. Somebody has heard youand understands it. You don't even have to
come up with a solution necessarily, somuch as like, just to hear somebody else
say, Oh my God, I've had that, a problemlike that, and relate to it. And that's an
alien experience for a lot of us who'veclosed off for a long time. And it just
(48:58):
helps you sleep at night, you know, toconnect with people this way?
Robert Kuang (49:02):
Yeah, I think we can, because we're such great overthinkers, I
can find it hard to believe that you justneed to talk to somebody else, or just go
touch grass, to have a new pathway ofthinking, or a new magical scenario of
possibility, right? Because sometimes I'mright to maybe too full of myself, I don't
(49:23):
know, but it's like, oh yeah. Like, youjust need to let go a little bit, and
maybe a different perspective will comeout of this, or a different way of
thinking, and we don't have to be rigidwith that, right?
Sol Smith (49:33):
Yeah, right. No, I agree. And as far as being too full of yourself, I'm
so guilty of that, you know, because whenI was when I was officially diagnosed,
which I was, it felt important for my job,and it was free for me with my with my
insurance plan at the time, the one of thefirst feelings I felt was a morning,
because I always thought that I was veryspecial and unique in a positive way. And
(49:56):
now I felt like, Oh no, as an autistic,I'm never going to. Be valued, and I'm
just autistic, you know, and I justallowed myself to feel that sort of like,
you know, loss of identity, loss ofindividualism, before I realized that I
was really gaining an identity andgaining, you know, camaraderie and all
sorts of things. But it took me a lotbecause, yeah, you do kind of have to get
(50:18):
over yourself and step back and yeah,meeting somebody else who's had these same
problems, and you let your guard down,it's amazing to really let that in. Yeah?
Robert Kuang (50:28):
And if folks who are trying to see if they can get a diagnosis or
trying to understand this, or just want toreach out and connect with you in some
way, what's the best way to reach you?
Sol Smith (50:39):
Yeah, you can email me at soul, at Professorsol.com and soul is just Sol,
or you can come to the website,Professorsol.com and reach me from there. Awesome.
Robert Kuang (50:49):
Okay, is there anything else that you'd like to, sort of, I like to
say, put on the table before we wrap up ofthings that's currently on your mind, or
things that just you want to share?
Sol Smith (50:59):
If anything I feel, I feel really, I feel really lucky to be in the
in the right place at the right time withthis, and to have a sense of purpose with
my work that was led like even though Ilove education and I loved teaching, being
able to help people through thistransition from recognizing your autistic
(51:21):
to living a better life has just been so,so meaningful for me. Yeah?
Robert Kuang (51:27):
Thank you for saying that, and also thank you for broadening this
conversation. This was something thathelped me as well, in some ways, so
awesome. Yeah, thank you for today asusual. So All right, thank
Sol Smith (51:38):
you so much. Let's do it again.
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