February 11, 2025 • 51 mins
Today’s guest is Jane Shi, a poet, editor, and the author of her debut poetry collection echolalia echolalia. She is an alumnus of Tin House Summer Workshop, The Writer's Studio Online at Simon Fraser University, and StoryStudio Chicago. In this conversation, we explore Jane’s early connection to poetry and wordplay, the ethos behind her collection, and the illusory nature of writer’s block.
Living on the stolen and occupied lands of Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil-Waututh peoples, she wants to live in a world where love is not a limited resource, land is not mined, hearts are not filched, and bodies are not violated.
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Robert Kuang (00:17):
Music. Welcome to side by side a podcast where I Robert Kuang take
you inside conversations with artists,creatives, healers and warriors taking
the charge in their transformationalstory. Today's guest is Jane Shi a poet,
editor and the author of her debutpoetry collection, echolalia. Echolalia,
(00:44):
she's an alumnus of the 10 house summerworkshop, the Writers Studio online at
Simon Fraser University, and storystudio Chicago.
In this conversation, we explore Jane'searly connection to poetry and wordplay,
the ethos behind her collection and theillusory nature of writer's block,
(01:07):
living on the stolen and occupied landsof Musqueam, Squamish and twat peoples,
she wants to live in a world where loveis not a limited resource. Land is not
mined, hearts are not finished andbodies are not violated.
You can find more side by side episodesat side by side podcast.podbean.com,
(01:33):
and if you'd like to connect with meabout my services, please visit www dot
Robert Kuang, home.com you to start thisconversation, please enjoy Jane's
reading of her poem, Azure road.
Jane Shi (01:53):
Azure road.
Your parents aren't ping pong tables aplatter of paranoias or the pinging for
I need to poo, they are just people
vomiting out carrot cubes. Your firstlesson in boundary setting
(02:13):
to do ba Animorphs into promising youwon't speak to them again
in idiom, fathers a child callmemorization, who kicks mother,
repetition tries to run away, forgetswe're you do not family good as an idiom
(02:36):
you made up To protect yourself fromlittle missed disappointments behind
her, a dog putters across the longcarpeted corridor, only responds to why
continue. Stay is not a command. Offeryourself cul de sac questions if they do
(03:00):
not want you. Do you? Good enough, goodenough. An upturned bag emptying perhaps
you still hope that someday someone willscoop you up. All this was a dream, a
test. You are not a pottery wheels lumpof regret. Raymond lost the election
(03:27):
that year, but you are not Raymond. Youdo not need to win to live.
Robert Kuang (03:36):
Thank you for reading that, especially when you're feeling a
little bit under the weather. Today, I'mso honored to be connecting with Jane
shirt. I'm so happy to be connected withJane today and reading some of her
poetry and just talking about writing.So how are you doing today, Jane? I'm
Jane Shi (03:58):
okay. I am feeling a little under the weather but still in good
spirits overall, so just kind of like ina restful mood. And
Robert Kuang (04:10):
your debut collection of poems, echolalia, echolalia just came
out last fall, so it hasn't been thatlong since you've started all of the
running around activities around that.How has that been for you after the
publishing experience? Yeah, honestly,
Jane Shi (04:25):
it was really sweet and really wholesome. So far, I was really nervous
and just kind of a lot of nervousenergy. Prior to this book coming out, I
had all sorts of like, it just felt likethere was a lot of tension that I was
holding in my body. But after the bookcame out, I was like, oh, okay, I feel
(04:48):
better. So yeah, even though there werea lot of things I had to do, it didn't
feel too bad. And it was
Robert Kuang (04:55):
such an honor to hear you do a reading one of the first one.
Writerly experiences I had in Vancouverwas going to kind of a launch event for
you and hearing other poets as well, andit was such a nice introduction to
Vancouver life, which is where we're atright now. Like I wanted to thank you
for that, and just being able to hearyour poetry felt like I could settle in
(05:17):
here as a writer and also as an artist.And you and I have something in common
in our history. I came to the UnitedStates from China when I was nine, and I
believe you also moved to Canada fromChina when you were younger, correct?
Yeah,
Jane Shi (05:31):
I was I was seven when I when our family immigrated here,
Robert Kuang (05:35):
and I always say that definitely impacted my writing and my
view of the world, and using writing tomaybe understand the world in some ways.
So that was sort of my the way that Isaw it when I was younger, I suppose.
But what was it like navigating, youknow, moving from China to Canada, and
did it have an impact in your creativityand artistic life?
Jane Shi (05:57):
Absolutely, I honestly don't know who I would be if it were not for
that experience, I would be anotherperson, probably. But as a child, I was
very into stories. I actually memorizedstories like I listened to audio
cassette tapes I would have, yeah, allof these stories I would just recite,
(06:19):
and I would sing songs. And I think thatis an interesting background to come
from when you are going into anothercountry where you're kind of learning a
new language, and then in the processlosing your previous ones. I think that
poetry and writing and art in a generalway, were ways to express myself when
(06:48):
the stressors of learning to adapt in anew world was too much. In a lot of
ways, I think that poetry is sort ofthis place where you can play with
grammar, play with sound in ways thatare more forgiving for people who are
feeling like they're fluent in thelanguage, but also like wanting to
(07:10):
create, like make language their ownright.
Robert Kuang (07:13):
So much of that resonates because one of the first experiences
that I remember after coming to Americawas me watching with my parents The
Sound of Music, because that wassomething that I could sort of
understand and wrap my head around,because it's mostly music based,
especially in the first half, right? Iremember even that having another medium
or another way to be exposed to this newlanguage was helpful, and it was kind of
(07:37):
helped me build a bridge into like, oh,yeah, I couldn't understand this. This
is just people, but it kind of soundslike writing and creativity and
journaling and storytelling was your wayto do that as well. Yeah, I wanted
Jane Shi (07:49):
to share an example, yes, that I always think about. My family took
over a copy of Through the Looking Glassby Lewis Carroll, and it had English on
one side and Chinese on the other. Andso as a child, my mother probably read
the Chinese version to me, and when Ilearned English, and subsequently,
(08:13):
didn't really learn how to read inChinese, I like, looked at the English
version. And so probably subconsciously,I already had the story in my head, but
there was that iconic poem inside thatbook called the Jabberwocky, and I, for
some reason, felt compelled to memorizeit, because the sounds were so
(08:35):
irresistible. It was brilliant. Again,the slidey toes, blah, blah, blah. As a
child, I really wanted to kind ofemulate that word play where you're
like, What is even going on? What doesthis mean? It somehow like, created the
story this world. There's a sort of likemystery about it. I like, I enjoyed
(08:57):
mystery as a child, and I still do. Ithink that there was that curiosity
element, but there was also an elementof wanting to make myself obscure to
other people, because when you read thatpoem, you're like, What is even going
on? And so I think that with poetry, youcan be very, very honest, but somehow be
(09:18):
very, very obscure. I think that for me,that was a way that I protected myself
as a kid. Yeah,
Robert Kuang (09:25):
that explains so much of my own creative writing back then, it
was just such a nice outlet, and it wasa way to process things that made
yourself feel more safe and protected inmany ways. So that definitely resonates
with me. Do you remember some of your sothat was like one of your first memories
of poetry? Yeah? I
Jane Shi (09:42):
mean, probably, like, more literally the My first memory of poetry
is memorizing Levi's quiet night think
Robert Kuang (09:50):
in Mandarin, yeah, like,
Jane Shi (09:52):
like, in a more literal sense, right? Like, the act of memorizing poem,
that poem and reciting it. Was probablymy first actual poem, like, yeah,
relationship to a poem. But there is,like a link here between that poem and
Jabberwocky, because they both really,really relish in the rhythm, pausing
(10:17):
over each word and and so I think thatthey're both interesting lessons for me
growing up, oh
Robert Kuang (10:24):
my gosh, I love talking to poets. I say this because I don't. I'm
not a self proclaimed poet, but somehowit makes the process even more enjoyable
for me, because you love wordplay in away that I can appreciate, maybe as
someone with more of like academicwriting, you know what I'm saying? And
there's so much freedom in poetry. Youknow, when I went to English school, I
(10:44):
read Shakespeare, read the Odyssey, butit was T S Eliot that I first really
started falling in love with poetry andanalyzing the Four Quartets and things
like that. And I just could not believehow much depth there was. Just so much
unpack in fewer word count and that kindof like changed my mind, but I was
already in college by then, so I wasn'treally spending my time exploring
(11:07):
wordplay on the page like you were. So Ireally, really respect that. In fact,
some of your poetry from the collectionwere from like, your teenage years and
from when you were younger, right?
Jane Shi (11:17):
Yeah, actually, someone in my life basically insisted that I so I
showed this person years and years ago.This person is also an author. Over a
decade ago, he was reading my WordPressblog from when I was a teenager like
over the span of several years, Iaccumulated a bunch of poems. He was
(11:40):
just like, you have to edit this and putit in a collection. And I was just like,
okay, but then when I did actually goback to read those poems, I was really,
really curious. I was really fascinated,because my writing style changed so much
between then and now, I had not beenbecause that time, I had no idea what
(12:05):
the poetry world is like. In localspaces. There are a lot of people, young
people, who are in youth poetry spaces.And I was never in that when I was
younger, it was just me and theWordPress me
Robert Kuang (12:20):
box. You were the introverted writer, yeah,
Jane Shi (12:23):
and because I wasn't exposed to other poets, I didn't feel inhibited
by certain mores or certain styles I wasreading at the time, when I was a
teenager, I was reading Chuck polinik.And the reason I read Chuck polinik is
because of panic at the Disco's firstalbum. I Write Sins on tragedies that is
(12:48):
important lore. Reading, you know,Vladimir Nabokov. I was reading Stephen
King like my style was super gritty andraw in ways that I just don't quite
write like that anymore, because I wasvery, very uninhibited as a young
person. And I was like, Oh, this is sointeresting. I love this. And so that
(13:10):
that was the process for that poem,because I wanted to honor that, like
older writing style. And it was stilllike, super, you know, it's just, it was
just gave me lots to play with. I wasreally chuffed when I went through those
those words again. I
Robert Kuang (13:25):
mean, that sounds like such a positive experience, because
writing is kind of a time capsule as ourtaste and style changes. There's
definitely some. I've had some verycringy reactions to my old writing, but
there was something really empoweringand inspiring about reading your
collection and kind of seeing numberone, to dive in a little bit, just the
(13:45):
variety in form, I would say, eventexture, and just you are playing with
so many different things in your workthat I just admire so much. And so there
is that effect of like, every poem isdifferent from the other, and that's
okay, even if some was from the past andsome was from, you know, last year, who
knows? I wanted to talk about how youopened in your acknowledgements, in your
(14:08):
collection, you wrote for the mouth soshut, mumbling, water. What water do you
want to share a little bit about thisacknowledgement and what you meant by
that? Um,
Jane Shi (14:19):
so I was going through some really difficult things in the last
decade of my life, and I was thinking alot about the feeling that, I guess to
go back to the feeling that I had toprotect myself as a kid, where you feel
like you can't say certain things, butyou say it in code and poetry or
(14:43):
something, I think that this dedicationis sort of about what people can't say
in public, what people are punished ifthey were to say. It's kind of also
examining the relationship betweensaying things and and. And like and
thirst and hunger as like survivalthings, right? And how connected it is
(15:06):
to be able to speak your truth. And whatdoes it mean to have your mouth so shut,
but you're still mumbling. Somebody cancan silence you, like the world can
silence you, but they can't silence youcompletely. So even if you're mumbling
your truth, you're still saying in someway.
Robert Kuang (15:24):
Yeah, I definitely got it was kind of honoring writing as an
acknowledgement of censorship, but alsoself censorship, both and yes and and
still putting the work out and stillputting pen to paper. So yeah, I thank
you for expanding on that a little bit,because definitely, like you say, the
words are up for interpretation, but soresonant and honest in some ways. And it
(15:47):
definitely struck me when I read it. Andthere's something to be said about
reading poetry, especially for yourcollection, because there's the
experience of reading your work, andthen there is experience of hearing your
work. There are some things that I feellike you can only experience with your
work on paper as an experience, and solike, how have you navigated the writing
experience and for publishing print, butalso if and when you have to read, or
(16:11):
it's more of a listening experience andyou're at a mic? Like, how much did you
think about that? Or was it just, like,I'm just gonna see what happens, and
this is what came out. Yeah. I
Jane Shi (16:20):
mean, I think that, like, the book objects, is something that I
thought a lot about. I had put out achat book, but I like, when you're
writing a book, you have to think about,like, why is this a book specifically?
And so there are some things that can bedone in a book that isn't quite done on
the stage. I really, really admire slampoets. I think that I started writing
(16:43):
poetry more specifically because I wentto slam events. I went to local poetry
events in that way.
Robert Kuang (16:50):
Oh my gosh. Did you do some Did you? Did you grow up? Always
Jane Shi (16:54):
thought that I did, but I didn't. Maybe, like, did a like, a few
open mics here and there, but I never,like, did any competitions. I was just
like, This is too much. And I say thisas somebody who judged, so maybe that's
how
Robert Kuang (17:12):
there I was, like, Oh, these are the extroverted writers,
performers, yeah,
Jane Shi (17:19):
but yeah, like, I do think about both things simultaneously. But
because this is a book, I thought a lotmore about what could be done with the
visuals, but also because I learned withDiana Kuang Nguyen how to do certain
formatting things, I was just like,Okay, this is like a real space to play
with as well. There's like a lot thatcould be done with these words, yeah,
(17:43):
especially because if you play with thesounds of the words or the image of,
like one word itself, you can play withthe whole shape of the poem. And so, as
you say, textures. That's something thatcan also be done with a physical book,
because it is textured.
Robert Kuang (17:59):
Yeah, I loved it, and I was very inspired once again. You know,
my appreciation of poetry is just alwayslike, whenever you feel boxed in and
limited, check in with a poet just toremind yourself you can do a lot more.
You have a lot more freedom. And also,specifically for print poetry, I thought
it was so effective. You know, I hadsome, you know, had some peers who
(18:19):
wrote, maybe like a play script withsome formatting things, but it's not
going to be felt once it goes intoproduction. This is just what the
experience is. You know, when you'rereading the collection and you did
things like, I can't even count all thedifferent techniques and effects, but
putting print over print to make itmurky and hard to read, you've got
(18:40):
poetry that mirror each other more likesibling poems, and you had poems where
the print started to fade. And the oneabout ancestors was the one that made me
cry, by the way, it was the last line.What was that? How do you pronounce my
name, or something like that? It hitsomeplace deep within me, apparently.
(19:00):
And so fading texts and just, you know,and again, formatting in every which way
that people could imagine. So if you'reinterested in that, you should
definitely get Jane's collection justto, just to see what is possible. And
again, it's just printed pages on paper.Nothing super groundbreaking. But here
you are doing things that, some thingsI've never seen before. Kudos. I don't
(19:21):
know which one you had the most fun, orsome of them were suggestions where you
just went for it, but I mean, every poemwas its own distinct signature, or at
least that's how I felt as a reader.
Jane Shi (19:34):
I think that maybe it's worth mentioning that for the last few years,
probably start of undergrad. But beforethat as well, I was interested in film.
And in undergrad, I did make a fewfilms, and I actually wrote some video
poems, and I think that definitelyinfluenced all these shapes, because I
(19:56):
you know, with with videos, you have tothink about where everything is placed.
And your Canvas is a different size, solike when you flip over the page
sideways, you get sort of a screen andthat, that is why the mountains made
apart poem has that quality, because Iwas directly just using the three aspect
(20:16):
ratios that the the film used torepresent these three periods of time in
that film. Yeah,
Robert Kuang (20:22):
there was a visual nature. Even in your poems that have no visuals
to it, nevertheless, you use theformatting of print and also just the
words, using the words as shapes to makenew shapes. Again, I had a very, very
striking and unique experience andthings I've never seen in other spaces
before. And it's also reallyencouraging, by the way, to hear that it
(20:44):
took time to put together thiscollection, and you put your heart and
soul into it, is that just yourphilosophy, there is no limit. Do just
experiment and see what happens. Or howdid you, how did you start to open up
creatively? Part
Jane Shi (20:58):
of it is that I had really amazing editors, and I was able to work
with some really cool people in the lastcouple of years through both my chapbook
leaving Changa on red with brachiosGhost press and echolalia, echolalia
with brick books. And also because Ireally think about Gestalt as well.
(21:21):
Like, sometimes I can't read what I meanGestalt is like the like, the shape of a
whole rather than just the details. Whenyou're reading a poem, you're like, each
word each word, but like, if you can'tlook at something closely because it is
too hard, or if your mind is somewhereelse, you still have the shape so, like,
(21:42):
you can access the poem on like,multiple levels, all throughout, like,
editing this collection. There weretimes where there were certain poems
that I couldn't read, but I could, like,play with the shape forever. Yeah, I
really think that a lot of it goes backto, like, my previous instinct to
protect myself as a kid, I think aboutif you can say this difficult thing, but
(22:08):
have it be in a shape that feels likeyou can handle that was sort of the
philosophy of editing these poems. Thereare times where I'm like, looking at the
words, I'm like, I hate it's not that Ihate the words, but it's that the
feelings that came with it weredifficult. But what if I put these
difficult things in symmetry? What if Irepeated it in different iterations?
(22:33):
What if I faded it out? What if I triedto mimic nature, or what if I resembled
the film, or what if I put it in a CDformat or split in half, and poets like
Douglas Kearney, Diana coy Nguyen, LaylaLee, long soldier, are all poets who
(22:55):
really, really play With form in thatway and through those strategies, they
say something specific that wouldn't besaid if it were in that form. Also like
Ty Amba, Jess OLIO as well. I was justlike, symmetry is so interesting. It's
(23:16):
so there is a lesson in all of thismess. I like like for like, to name
another really nerdy example. My poemabout being a tool fan, I use the
Fibonacci sequence and how I you
Robert Kuang (23:33):
fucking Okay, wait just you have to explain it, because I don't
even know what
Jane Shi (23:40):
do you mean. So, okay, the Fibonacci sequence is the golden ratio
in nature, right? So I don't exactlyremember the numbers like, it's like
112, and then it sort of graduallyspirals out. And that's how you make the
all of these shapes in nature, whetherit is these shells or these formations,
(24:01):
or how we as humans read, understandsymmetry or beauty or whatever. And so
this band from the 90s, they're stillaround, called tool, which I really
enjoyed as a teenager, a song calledlateralis, where they had the chords and
Fibonacci sequence. And I was like,obsessed with this, because I was just
(24:24):
like, this is like, it just stimulatedthat part of my brain that liked to put
things together in that way. And justlike, I know that it's a little, you
know, silly, but it was very, it wasvery, like, compelling to me. I was just
like, if I'm going to write a poem abouttool, it has to be like formatted in the
(24:47):
Fibonacci sequence. So I used the linebreaks and the tabs in that format, and
that created a sort of like a wave ineach stanza that i. Really enjoyed,
because I was also talking about EMDR inthe poem. And EMDR, you kind of look
back, it's that bilateral stimulationthing. And I was just like, it all kind
(25:11):
of comes together somehow. Yeah,
Robert Kuang (25:14):
no, it does. It does. It's super cool. Because, you know, we I
sometimes talk about this in a more of awoo woo Oprah way, let's just say, but
you sound like you really know how tofollow your inspiration, and you just go
for it. And I feel like with writers, alot of our blocks can be about fear of
trying things and also just kind of whatis the right decision. How did you
(25:38):
navigate those things when you'replaying with form so freely, and how did
you just kind of remain uninhibited? Ifthat makes sense, the
Jane Shi (25:46):
philosophy or approach of the collection is that we as humans or and
me as a queer, autistic person of thediaspora, we have to kind of be
chameleons. We have to change who weare, sometimes on a heart in a
(26:11):
heartbeat, to adapt to differentsituations. So I think that that was the
approach that I took with formthroughout this collection, and in a
more specific way with each poem, it'slike sometimes the subject kind of
demands that I use a certain form, thelate wood poem. It has a sort of like a
(26:37):
ring, like spiral, a little bit as oneexample, the Hoff lakes, not
firecrackers. Poem, I traced an image oftan Kulu. Pirated DVDs are my cousins. I
chose a play button, like the buttonthat you click play that, plus the poem
(26:58):
that is shaped like a CD. There's likethis, oh, to like the the older formats
of playing music in a way that might getlost in the digital era that we're in.
My editor, Phoebe Wang, kind ofsuggested that 100 punch lines to
procrastinate kicking your bucket couldbe kind of like credits, like rolling
(27:19):
credits at the end of a film, and beingclose to the end of the collection, and
the poem loves each obviously there islike an acknowledgement of the actual
couch format, where there's two partsand then they're put together, sort of
like you're when you're writing a poem,like the shape almost comes together on
(27:40):
its own. If you're writing about aspecific kind of thing,
Robert Kuang (27:44):
I love the ones that kind of look like to do lists or like they
look like Sims bars to me, you know. AndI don't know what your specific
inspiration was, but I've never seenthat particular way of looking at
wording and meaning and poetry. Andyeah, I had to shout that out as well.
Thank you. Yeah. Do you have a favorite,I guess, like a favorite piece that you
(28:08):
wrote, or like a piece that particularlysticks out for you in the collection?
For any reason? I was
Jane Shi (28:15):
very surprised my poem industry of caring. It was originally
just those words and not the collage.Cynthia dewy Oka suggested that I use a
collage form just like Douglas Kearney'spoems. And I was really, really curious.
(28:35):
I was like, Okay, what exactly? BecauseI had seen Douglas caring work before,
but I hadn't seriously figured out,like, what his process was, so I, like,
took some time to listen to him talkabout it. And he talked about how a lot
of the poems he wrote, and they're veryvisual, they're using old texts, and the
(28:58):
texts are actually from the 1800s and hegot those specific words from the
specific collages, so to speak, visualtopography, he would say, from Google
Books, because the licensing, thecopyright licensing, has expired, so you
can, like, freely use those. And so Ihad spent maybe like 10 minutes writing
(29:24):
the words years ago of this poem, but Ispent such a long time composing the
actual collage because I brought in,like so many different sources, and I
was really like thinking about whatDouglas was talking about in terms of
like, when you bring in these textures,you bring in some of the spirit of what
(29:48):
the original text. So when he usesreally, really a racist old text to
speak back to anti blackness or Americaor masculinity or patriarch. Like it
sort of retains that problematic spiritof that original text. And so I was,
yeah, I think that that this poem likeis like fun for me, because I get to
(30:15):
think about all of these differentdocuments that I was looking at,
including a bunch of books anddictionaries that my friends
grandparents left behind. Originallythey were involved with the Chinatown
Library Association as a lot of thosebooks originally came from there, and
(30:37):
then, when they had to sell the houseand old age they a lot of these books
went back to the association, and someof them, my friend didn't want these
books to go to waste, so she like, gavethem to me. And I was, like, had all
these intentions to do something withthese texts or research them, or
whatever. But in the end, it wasactually the literal physical letters
(31:01):
that I used, yeah, and I think thatelement of like, what does the
topography or the original document doin a poem works really well for this
particular subject
Robert Kuang (31:13):
matter, yeah, I'm kind of thinking of, I saw an opera that was
about Angel Island in New York, and itwas inspired by the poems that, like
Chinese immigrants who spent time atAngel Island, carved into the wood of
where they were staying. And so justhaving like images of like the carvings
(31:34):
of the poetry in the slabs of wood wherethey were like, you know, holding
centers and things like that, where itwas so evocative, and the way you were
describing your process reminded me ofhow they viewed the words, the poetry,
but also the impact and what it means.Thank you for talking about your
process, because sometimes the writerlyprocess is not just about the word count
(31:55):
or the words themselves, but you had awhole process after the words had
already been set that was equallyimpactful, you know, and I assuming
maybe you were thinking about publishingand things like that. So, yeah, it's
really interesting to hear about yourprocess. And you've also mentioned a lot
of peers and your support group, yourcommunity, really being able to give you
(32:18):
feedback and things like that. How didyou choose when or who to share certain
things with, especially before they werepublished, I feel
Jane Shi (32:25):
pretty comfortable sharing my first drafts with friends and a few
writing friends as well. I think thatthough, with the process of creating a
book, I really did want to talk withother poets, and that is one of the
reasons why I was really excited to dothe writer studio at SFU the mentor that
(32:53):
I had was Kayla Zaga. Had tin house. Iworked with Diana coy Nguyen, and I
think that, like in those spaces, youcan ask some really pointed questions
about poetry impact of the words, forsomebody who doesn't know about your
context at all, who has, like a just apoet perspective, and I think that that
(33:16):
is just so invaluable. And also I care alot about the political impact of a poem
too. Like I think having poets who sharea similar kind of ethic, like my poet,
poet friend, Sho ayama, gushi ku really,really was supportive in that way, just
(33:37):
because thinking about editing a poem isnot only about the craft of the words,
but also about the impact what it doesin the world, how it can be read in all
these different ways. And so I thinkthat having like a balance of both of
them really helped me feel morecomfortable putting this book out in the
(33:58):
world.
Robert Kuang (33:59):
Do you have any advice for specifically, let's say, poets working
with editors, and what that may looklike. I guess I would say, as someone
with more experience in prose, I alwayswas curious about that, how to actually
improve upon a poem, essentially, andwhat to think about you've given so many
interesting and again, really inspiredexamples of this already, so I want to
(34:21):
acknowledge that. But like, Do you haveany advice for working with editors?
Specifically, I
Jane Shi (34:27):
think that, like, one thing that I learned that I was really
grateful for is that if you understandthe stylistic or different approach that
the editor that you're working with has,you might be able to say, Oh, this is
(34:48):
really good advice, and I will only takesome of it because I want to retain my
original the original spirit. This isnot quite in my style. People or I
disagree with this reading, yeah, Ithink that, like, the editorial process
is very much like a like a conversationwhere you're, like, almost figuring out
(35:10):
on the go, like, what is the poem thatyou're writing? It's sort of like the
poem might be a little fuzzy in thebeginning, but then as you go through
the process, as it becomes clear, yeah,like my editor at brick, Phoebe Wang,
was really, really supportive, and thatwas really, really helpful. Yeah, I had
all these different ideas, but I thinkit takes time to get to know more of the
(35:32):
technical side of editing a manuscript.I think that was definitely something
that I like learned on the go, but I dothink that at the end of the day, like,
it's sort of about like, deciding, hey,this is my approach, this is my style.
There is no universal, like, right wayto do this work. It's like figuring out
(35:53):
what is your voice, what is your mark?
Robert Kuang (35:56):
Yeah, I love what you said about it's a relationship, you know. So
it's like a dance between two peoplethat you cultivate and also that there
are some practical ways in which you cankind of assess their relationship based
on who they've worked with before. Butyeah, that's really interesting to hear,
because I think a lot of people are canstruggle with editing, I suppose, for
lack of better phrasing. So this is likea good process, especially for poets as
(36:20):
well, because, again, I think maybethere's some assumption, especially with
shorter poems, like maybe the personjust wrote it, put it on a piece of
paper, and now it's published, andthat's really not the case at all. So
anything to demystify that part as wellis really helpful, assuming, of course,
if you've experienced things likewriter's block, or taken some breaks
(36:40):
from writing, or had periods ofstruggle, if you experienced those
things, what helped you overcome that inthe process? Yeah, I don't
Jane Shi (36:49):
really think that writer's block is an actual thing. I think there
are times when we are called to dodifferent things, and that is part of
the writing process if you're a writer.I think that, like my biggest, I guess,
block, so to speak, or struggle in thelast few years, is that I really
struggled to read. I struggled to readnovels specifically, and it's partly
(37:16):
because I studied literature inuniversity and it was just very, very
hard to dive back into reading books forpleasure. Yeah, I think that, you know,
there are other ways to engage withliterary things, like film, music, art,
(37:39):
sometimes we don't always have, like,some people were percolating on an idea.
It doesn't really make sense to writesomething when you when you're still
percolating, when you're stillprocessing something, and that's why,
like, sometimes it seems like a writerjust suddenly comes up with this three
page thing or a 10 page thing or 20 pagething, but actually, they've been
(38:02):
writing it in their head for like,years, so I feel like just kind of
honoring the process is, yeah, what I'llsay about that
Robert Kuang (38:12):
thank you for saying that. I've definitely have some that's been in
my noggin for years. I think we, a lotof people, have those, and it's such a
liberating experience to put that onpaper and to externalize it in some
ways. I also want to acknowledge foryou, say, like, writer's block, the way
we conventionally think of it, the wayit has been taught that it may be a
little bit of a myth. Do you want to saymore about it? Or you feel like it's
(38:35):
pretty self explanatory? I think
Jane Shi (38:37):
that, like when you think about writing as you are supposed to
constantly do it, and it'll just whenyou decide that when you're going to
write is when you're going to write, youare sort of assuming that You're a
writer by default and that what'sactually happening for writers is that
(39:04):
they write because they have somethingto say. That's why you know you're not
going to people are not going torespond. Well if you are, say, a white
writer writing about a topic really likerelevant to people of color and not
acknowledging their positionality. Toput it another way, like writing for
(39:26):
writing sake is not a helpful way tothink about this work. People are
writing because they have something tosay, because writing has a role in the
world otherwise. Why don't we becometechnical writers or work for marketing,
for communications.
Robert Kuang (39:44):
You know, you can do that to pay the bills, by the way, technical
writer, financial writer, if you knowhow to write about it, great, you know,
Jane Shi (39:53):
right? It's like we need, like all kinds of writing, but like writing
as literature or art or. Or commentaryor political insight, that is a
different kind of thing, because thereis like a incubation process. You plant
the seed and the flower, the flowercomes out a few months later, and that
(40:14):
whole thing is the writing process,technically, if you're not technically
putting like words to the page. Thatisn't writer's block, that is, you're
doing something else while right,preparing to put words to
Robert Kuang (40:29):
the page right, right, right. Thank you for that distinction.
It's also why sometimes I personally canstruggle with following like The
Artist's Way, or one of those, right?Because I kind of can't always just make
it happen, because I've decided to sitdown to try to make something happen.
Yeah, and you kind of talk about it fromthis way of being the artist in some
meaning, you know, you even say this inyour final acknowledgements at the end
(40:51):
of your collection, your book, theexperience of being held through this
writing and publishing journey has beena poem in and of itself, and that, you
know, certain aspects of your life isalmost poetry. Sometimes you have to
just let things happen and allow thingsto happen on their own terms. But yeah,
what did you mean by specifically? I'llread this here. I'm indebted to the care
(41:13):
and grace that my loved ones extended methroughout writing this collection.
Thank you for holding me when I didn'tknow how that too is a poem. So I guess
I'm just curious if there's if you couldunpack that a little bit. So like,
Jane Shi (41:25):
if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, did the
tree fall? It's kind of like that. Butin this context, it's like we make an
active decision to decide that our lifeis poetry, and we can do that if we want
to. And sometimes we don't think it'spoetry. We think it's all crap. And I
(41:49):
think that there is something very likescary and daring to write poetry in a
world that is trying to say, let's justscroll social media or or, like,
mindlessly consume. Or, to put it morebroadly, it's like, how do we make
(42:09):
meaning in our lives? And of course,like, yeah, like, a lot of the poems
that I write about are about myfriendships and about my loved ones. And
like, I see the poetry in my life, I seethe poetry exactly and the love and care
that people show me, yeah. That was kindof my way of reflecting back onto
people.
Robert Kuang (42:29):
Okay, so taking all of this in, having the support of the
community, the publishing, theengagement, the rewards, in some ways,
does that inform your writing practicegoing forward in any way. I guess this
is my way of teeing up, you know,anything else on the horizon for you and
that you're taking away from this wholejourney. I
Jane Shi (42:48):
honestly haven't really thought about it like I think that,
like, I have way more to say. I have waymore to write about. I don't know if
it'll be another poetry collectionanytime soon, just because I'm also a
prose writer, and sometimes there aremore essays than poems, and but like,
(43:13):
you know, I think that, like as adisabled poet, specifically, I think
that, um, I have to be mindful of theprocess, because I think that there is a
lot of messaging out there thatsuggests, oh, you have to come out with
another project right away. And that is,like, a pace that maybe doesn't
necessarily work for me, you know, like,the thing is, like, this collection
(43:36):
took, like, probably more than fiveyears. So, like, realistically, you
know, like, longer projects would takearound that time for me to do so, but I
really enjoyed working on it, and it wasvery fulfilling to have one day you
don't have the collection, and thenanother day it comes into your house in
(43:57):
a big box.
Robert Kuang (44:00):
Yeah, thank you for sharing that. That's such a I can only
imagine, in some ways, without having,you know, a poetry collection published
in this way and everything, just youknow, when you can still recall the
times when it was a safe document inyour old computer, all the way to now,
not that people are obligated to writeor to be a writer, but that's such a
(44:21):
incredible experience, despite all thechallenges that lie inside of it, as you
mentioned. And also thank you foracknowledging again, that you're not
doing this for the sake of doing it,with regards to pacing and being mindful
of disability and things like that.You're practicing what you preach. Yeah,
thank you. Yeah. Well, is there anythingelse that you want to kind of mention or
(44:43):
put on the table, as I like to say,particularly for listeners who would
like to try poetry, or for aspiring andbeginning writers specifically, so
Jane Shi (44:54):
recently, David Lynch passed away. David Lynch is the director of
twin P. Peaks. I had forgotten that Ireally liked Twin Peaks, and I went to
re watch, and I was like, oh, man, thisis so good. But one of the things that
he said to an artist, when the artistasked him, Do you have any advice for me
(45:17):
as an emerging artist? And he's like,No, there is something so interesting
about that response, because it's sortof saying, like another artist is not
going to be able to tell you how to makeyour art. And I've been thinking about
that a lot, because another person isnot going to tell you how to be
yourself. Another person is not going totell you how you show up when you're
(45:42):
dating people. Another person is notgoing to tell you how to make the art
that you want to put out in the world.So I feel like my biggest thing is just
like, how do you cultivate anenvironment for yourself where you can
be fully yourself? Yeah, I think aboutthis a lot when it comes to all kinds of
(46:05):
art, and it's like, so important to me,because it's like, we live in a world
where it's like everything is kind ofmemes, or like people are trying to get
you to be someone you're not all thetime under capitalism and colonialism.
Yeah, when it comes to like, puttingyour work out there, it's like, what can
you do to make your poem or piece moreof itself? If somebody tells you, hey,
(46:30):
it reminds me of this, and you're like,No, no, that's not what I meant. How do
you make that more of what you actuallymeant? And then afterwards, just kind of
like, trust the process, know that youcan't control after you put the work out
there, it's like, it's almost like nolonger yours. Letting go is is important
(46:51):
and very hard, and then maybe morepractical things like, I find it
sometimes intimidating to figure out howto make, like, other poet friends, but
that is, like, super important. Like,having people that you trust with whom
you could like, hey, what do you thinkof this? What do you think of that?
(47:12):
Yeah, just kind of like finding yourpeople, when it comes to Yeah, people
interested in the same kind of style asyou.
Robert Kuang (47:20):
I love, I love hearing this, and I'm so glad I asked you about
this, because you're right. First ofall, in a world that's you said, very
cookie cutter. That resonated with me. Iheard something recently online that was
like, there's a lot of trying to makesameness happen for the in the name of
equality, even though that's not whatequality is, right, sameness. So here a
(47:41):
little bit of that. I'm curious as afollow up question. You know, the people
who really were a net positive in yourpublishing and writing journey, who did
show up for you, rather than advice,what did they bring you?
Jane Shi (47:53):
Um, I do think that they offer me advice, but yeah,
Robert Kuang (47:58):
sometimes, right? Yeah, you know, like practical
Jane Shi (48:00):
things, right? But I really do think it's like that mirroring, like,
support, yeah, like, like, holding andcreating space for your voice. Like, I
think that's actually the most importantpart, yeah, because sometimes writers
self censor or self reject or feel liketheir work is not up to par, or
whatever, yeah, especially formarginalized writers who are responding
(48:25):
to a tradition of very specific kinds ofwriting, and you're like, who am I to do
this work? Quote, unquote, impostersyndrome, right, right? So I think that
the most impactful thing is just someonesupporting you and saying, Hey, I
believe in your work. I don't know Iwas. I was recently watching the great
Canadian baking Show
Robert Kuang (48:45):
Me too. Oh, my God, it's so good, especially as a distraction
from some of 2025 but go on, every
Jane Shi (48:54):
single Baker was there for a reason, and every single criticism or
feedback they got was because the judgesknew that they could do better. And
obviously, like baking competition andwriting is a little bit different, but
there is like that sort of likesupportive feedback that they're
(49:15):
receiving and watching the baker supporteach other through it was really
heartwarming. And towards like, allthroughout the show, they're starting to
say, like, this type of move is sospecific to you as a baker, and it's
sort of like them reflecting back tothem what they're doing that they may
not see that they're doing. Yeah,
Robert Kuang (49:36):
yeah. And just creating a container of safety, which honestly has
come up a lot recently. You know,there's like meeting deadlines and you
need to put in the time and effort, buta lot of the things comes back to even
in today's conversation. You know, thiswasn't planned, but you talked about
your poetry collection as an experienceof protecting yourself, and out of that
came this collection. But there's justsomething that's been resonating with.
(50:00):
Lately, and all of my conversations withwriters that's around creating a space
where safety is possible, includingsomething like Bake Off. You know, if
you're sick or things are happening,you're safe to try to do your best as a
baker in that setting. And I feel thatthe same way in writers groups and
things like that. I mean, there's beyondthe prestige or like someone famous and
(50:20):
things like that. The ones that were themost life changing were the ones where
we kind of felt safe to experiment or totake risks. And I hear a little bit of
that, maybe in some of what you'resharing, absolutely,
Jane Shi (50:31):
absolutely, like, receiving, like, genuine support is the lifeblood
of,
Robert Kuang (50:36):
yeah. I mean, like in those spaces, then I can be like, Don't
hold back. I can take it and suddenly,like, you know, but that took it was, it
wasn't. It was like an organic thing ofestablishing safety within the group,
um, rather than anything specific,logistical, you know. So, um, yeah,
(50:57):
thank you for sharing that for writersand you know more for us to think about
today. Yeah, I really appreciate yourtime today, and any you know,
interesting journeys that we had, but Ireally look forward to catching up with
you again sometimes, and if people wouldlike to connect with you for any reason
or just find more of your work online.Where can they find you?
Jane Shi (51:18):
Um, they can find me at Jane she.org or on social media. I am one of
those people who did not deleteanything, but I go poetry which is
spelled p, i, p, A, P, A, O, poetry, and
Robert Kuang (51:37):
I will link it as well. Thank you for being the audio file of
today's conversation. All right?
Music. Welcome to side by side a podcast where I Robert Kuang take
you inside conversations with artists,creatives, healers and warriors taking
the charge in their transformationalstory. Today's guest is Jane Shi a poet,
editor and the author of her debutpoetry collection, echolalia. Echolalia,
(00:44):
she's an alumnus of the 10 house summerworkshop, the Writers Studio online at
Simon Fraser University, and storystudio Chicago.
In this conversation, we explore Jane'searly connection to poetry and wordplay,
the ethos behind her collection and theillusory nature of writer's block,
(01:07):
living on the stolen and occupied landsof Musqueam, Squamish and twat peoples,
she wants to live in a world where loveis not a limited resource. Land is not
mined, hearts are not finished andbodies are not violated.
You can find more side by side episodesat side by side podcast.podbean.com,
(01:33):
and if you'd like to connect with meabout my services, please visit www dot
Robert Kuang, home.com you to start thisconversation, please enjoy Jane's
reading of her poem, Azure road.
Jane Shi (01:53):
Azure road.
Your parents aren't ping pong tables aplatter of paranoias or the pinging for
I need to poo, they are just people
vomiting out carrot cubes. Your firstlesson in boundary setting
(02:13):
to do ba Animorphs into promising youwon't speak to them again
in idiom, fathers a child callmemorization, who kicks mother,
repetition tries to run away, forgetswe're you do not family good as an idiom
(02:36):
you made up To protect yourself fromlittle missed disappointments behind
her, a dog putters across the longcarpeted corridor, only responds to why
continue. Stay is not a command. Offeryourself cul de sac questions if they do
(03:00):
not want you. Do you? Good enough, goodenough. An upturned bag emptying perhaps
you still hope that someday someone willscoop you up. All this was a dream, a
test. You are not a pottery wheels lumpof regret. Raymond lost the election
(03:27):
that year, but you are not Raymond. Youdo not need to win to live.
Robert Kuang (03:36):
Thank you for reading that, especially when you're feeling a
little bit under the weather. Today, I'mso honored to be connecting with Jane
shirt. I'm so happy to be connected withJane today and reading some of her
poetry and just talking about writing.So how are you doing today, Jane? I'm
Jane Shi (03:58):
okay. I am feeling a little under the weather but still in good
spirits overall, so just kind of like ina restful mood. And
Robert Kuang (04:10):
your debut collection of poems, echolalia, echolalia just came
out last fall, so it hasn't been thatlong since you've started all of the
running around activities around that.How has that been for you after the
publishing experience? Yeah, honestly,
Jane Shi (04:25):
it was really sweet and really wholesome. So far, I was really nervous
and just kind of a lot of nervousenergy. Prior to this book coming out, I
had all sorts of like, it just felt likethere was a lot of tension that I was
holding in my body. But after the bookcame out, I was like, oh, okay, I feel
(04:48):
better. So yeah, even though there werea lot of things I had to do, it didn't
feel too bad. And it was
Robert Kuang (04:55):
such an honor to hear you do a reading one of the first one.
Writerly experiences I had in Vancouverwas going to kind of a launch event for
you and hearing other poets as well, andit was such a nice introduction to
Vancouver life, which is where we're atright now. Like I wanted to thank you
for that, and just being able to hearyour poetry felt like I could settle in
(05:17):
here as a writer and also as an artist.And you and I have something in common
in our history. I came to the UnitedStates from China when I was nine, and I
believe you also moved to Canada fromChina when you were younger, correct?
Yeah,
Jane Shi (05:31):
I was I was seven when I when our family immigrated here,
Robert Kuang (05:35):
and I always say that definitely impacted my writing and my
view of the world, and using writing tomaybe understand the world in some ways.
So that was sort of my the way that Isaw it when I was younger, I suppose.
But what was it like navigating, youknow, moving from China to Canada, and
did it have an impact in your creativityand artistic life?
Jane Shi (05:57):
Absolutely, I honestly don't know who I would be if it were not for
that experience, I would be anotherperson, probably. But as a child, I was
very into stories. I actually memorizedstories like I listened to audio
cassette tapes I would have, yeah, allof these stories I would just recite,
(06:19):
and I would sing songs. And I think thatis an interesting background to come
from when you are going into anothercountry where you're kind of learning a
new language, and then in the processlosing your previous ones. I think that
poetry and writing and art in a generalway, were ways to express myself when
(06:48):
the stressors of learning to adapt in anew world was too much. In a lot of
ways, I think that poetry is sort ofthis place where you can play with
grammar, play with sound in ways thatare more forgiving for people who are
feeling like they're fluent in thelanguage, but also like wanting to
(07:10):
create, like make language their ownright.
Robert Kuang (07:13):
So much of that resonates because one of the first experiences
that I remember after coming to Americawas me watching with my parents The
Sound of Music, because that wassomething that I could sort of
understand and wrap my head around,because it's mostly music based,
especially in the first half, right? Iremember even that having another medium
or another way to be exposed to this newlanguage was helpful, and it was kind of
(07:37):
helped me build a bridge into like, oh,yeah, I couldn't understand this. This
is just people, but it kind of soundslike writing and creativity and
journaling and storytelling was your wayto do that as well. Yeah, I wanted
Jane Shi (07:49):
to share an example, yes, that I always think about. My family took
over a copy of Through the Looking Glassby Lewis Carroll, and it had English on
one side and Chinese on the other. Andso as a child, my mother probably read
the Chinese version to me, and when Ilearned English, and subsequently,
(08:13):
didn't really learn how to read inChinese, I like, looked at the English
version. And so probably subconsciously,I already had the story in my head, but
there was that iconic poem inside thatbook called the Jabberwocky, and I, for
some reason, felt compelled to memorizeit, because the sounds were so
(08:35):
irresistible. It was brilliant. Again,the slidey toes, blah, blah, blah. As a
child, I really wanted to kind ofemulate that word play where you're
like, What is even going on? What doesthis mean? It somehow like, created the
story this world. There's a sort of likemystery about it. I like, I enjoyed
(08:57):
mystery as a child, and I still do. Ithink that there was that curiosity
element, but there was also an elementof wanting to make myself obscure to
other people, because when you read thatpoem, you're like, What is even going
on? And so I think that with poetry, youcan be very, very honest, but somehow be
(09:18):
very, very obscure. I think that for me,that was a way that I protected myself
as a kid. Yeah,
Robert Kuang (09:25):
that explains so much of my own creative writing back then, it
was just such a nice outlet, and it wasa way to process things that made
yourself feel more safe and protected inmany ways. So that definitely resonates
with me. Do you remember some of your sothat was like one of your first memories
of poetry? Yeah? I
Jane Shi (09:42):
mean, probably, like, more literally the My first memory of poetry
is memorizing Levi's quiet night think
Robert Kuang (09:50):
in Mandarin, yeah, like,
Jane Shi (09:52):
like, in a more literal sense, right? Like, the act of memorizing poem,
that poem and reciting it. Was probablymy first actual poem, like, yeah,
relationship to a poem. But there is,like a link here between that poem and
Jabberwocky, because they both really,really relish in the rhythm, pausing
(10:17):
over each word and and so I think thatthey're both interesting lessons for me
growing up, oh
Robert Kuang (10:24):
my gosh, I love talking to poets. I say this because I don't. I'm
not a self proclaimed poet, but somehowit makes the process even more enjoyable
for me, because you love wordplay in away that I can appreciate, maybe as
someone with more of like academicwriting, you know what I'm saying? And
there's so much freedom in poetry. Youknow, when I went to English school, I
(10:44):
read Shakespeare, read the Odyssey, butit was T S Eliot that I first really
started falling in love with poetry andanalyzing the Four Quartets and things
like that. And I just could not believehow much depth there was. Just so much
unpack in fewer word count and that kindof like changed my mind, but I was
already in college by then, so I wasn'treally spending my time exploring
(11:07):
wordplay on the page like you were. So Ireally, really respect that. In fact,
some of your poetry from the collectionwere from like, your teenage years and
from when you were younger, right?
Jane Shi (11:17):
Yeah, actually, someone in my life basically insisted that I so I
showed this person years and years ago.This person is also an author. Over a
decade ago, he was reading my WordPressblog from when I was a teenager like
over the span of several years, Iaccumulated a bunch of poems. He was
(11:40):
just like, you have to edit this and putit in a collection. And I was just like,
okay, but then when I did actually goback to read those poems, I was really,
really curious. I was really fascinated,because my writing style changed so much
between then and now, I had not beenbecause that time, I had no idea what
(12:05):
the poetry world is like. In localspaces. There are a lot of people, young
people, who are in youth poetry spaces.And I was never in that when I was
younger, it was just me and theWordPress me
Robert Kuang (12:20):
box. You were the introverted writer, yeah,
Jane Shi (12:23):
and because I wasn't exposed to other poets, I didn't feel inhibited
by certain mores or certain styles I wasreading at the time, when I was a
teenager, I was reading Chuck polinik.And the reason I read Chuck polinik is
because of panic at the Disco's firstalbum. I Write Sins on tragedies that is
(12:48):
important lore. Reading, you know,Vladimir Nabokov. I was reading Stephen
King like my style was super gritty andraw in ways that I just don't quite
write like that anymore, because I wasvery, very uninhibited as a young
person. And I was like, Oh, this is sointeresting. I love this. And so that
(13:10):
that was the process for that poem,because I wanted to honor that, like
older writing style. And it was stilllike, super, you know, it's just, it was
just gave me lots to play with. I wasreally chuffed when I went through those
those words again. I
Robert Kuang (13:25):
mean, that sounds like such a positive experience, because
writing is kind of a time capsule as ourtaste and style changes. There's
definitely some. I've had some verycringy reactions to my old writing, but
there was something really empoweringand inspiring about reading your
collection and kind of seeing numberone, to dive in a little bit, just the
(13:45):
variety in form, I would say, eventexture, and just you are playing with
so many different things in your workthat I just admire so much. And so there
is that effect of like, every poem isdifferent from the other, and that's
okay, even if some was from the past andsome was from, you know, last year, who
knows? I wanted to talk about how youopened in your acknowledgements, in your
(14:08):
collection, you wrote for the mouth soshut, mumbling, water. What water do you
want to share a little bit about thisacknowledgement and what you meant by
that? Um,
Jane Shi (14:19):
so I was going through some really difficult things in the last
decade of my life, and I was thinking alot about the feeling that, I guess to
go back to the feeling that I had toprotect myself as a kid, where you feel
like you can't say certain things, butyou say it in code and poetry or
(14:43):
something, I think that this dedicationis sort of about what people can't say
in public, what people are punished ifthey were to say. It's kind of also
examining the relationship betweensaying things and and. And like and
thirst and hunger as like survivalthings, right? And how connected it is
(15:06):
to be able to speak your truth. And whatdoes it mean to have your mouth so shut,
but you're still mumbling. Somebody cancan silence you, like the world can
silence you, but they can't silence youcompletely. So even if you're mumbling
your truth, you're still saying in someway.
Robert Kuang (15:24):
Yeah, I definitely got it was kind of honoring writing as an
acknowledgement of censorship, but alsoself censorship, both and yes and and
still putting the work out and stillputting pen to paper. So yeah, I thank
you for expanding on that a little bit,because definitely, like you say, the
words are up for interpretation, but soresonant and honest in some ways. And it
(15:47):
definitely struck me when I read it. Andthere's something to be said about
reading poetry, especially for yourcollection, because there's the
experience of reading your work, andthen there is experience of hearing your
work. There are some things that I feellike you can only experience with your
work on paper as an experience, and solike, how have you navigated the writing
experience and for publishing print, butalso if and when you have to read, or
(16:11):
it's more of a listening experience andyou're at a mic? Like, how much did you
think about that? Or was it just, like,I'm just gonna see what happens, and
this is what came out. Yeah. I
Jane Shi (16:20):
mean, I think that, like, the book objects, is something that I
thought a lot about. I had put out achat book, but I like, when you're
writing a book, you have to think about,like, why is this a book specifically?
And so there are some things that can bedone in a book that isn't quite done on
the stage. I really, really admire slampoets. I think that I started writing
(16:43):
poetry more specifically because I wentto slam events. I went to local poetry
events in that way.
Robert Kuang (16:50):
Oh my gosh. Did you do some Did you? Did you grow up? Always
Jane Shi (16:54):
thought that I did, but I didn't. Maybe, like, did a like, a few
open mics here and there, but I never,like, did any competitions. I was just
like, This is too much. And I say thisas somebody who judged, so maybe that's
how
Robert Kuang (17:12):
there I was, like, Oh, these are the extroverted writers,
performers, yeah,
Jane Shi (17:19):
but yeah, like, I do think about both things simultaneously. But
because this is a book, I thought a lotmore about what could be done with the
visuals, but also because I learned withDiana Kuang Nguyen how to do certain
formatting things, I was just like,Okay, this is like a real space to play
with as well. There's like a lot thatcould be done with these words, yeah,
(17:43):
especially because if you play with thesounds of the words or the image of,
like one word itself, you can play withthe whole shape of the poem. And so, as
you say, textures. That's something thatcan also be done with a physical book,
because it is textured.
Robert Kuang (17:59):
Yeah, I loved it, and I was very inspired once again. You know,
my appreciation of poetry is just alwayslike, whenever you feel boxed in and
limited, check in with a poet just toremind yourself you can do a lot more.
You have a lot more freedom. And also,specifically for print poetry, I thought
it was so effective. You know, I hadsome, you know, had some peers who
(18:19):
wrote, maybe like a play script withsome formatting things, but it's not
going to be felt once it goes intoproduction. This is just what the
experience is. You know, when you'rereading the collection and you did
things like, I can't even count all thedifferent techniques and effects, but
putting print over print to make itmurky and hard to read, you've got
(18:40):
poetry that mirror each other more likesibling poems, and you had poems where
the print started to fade. And the oneabout ancestors was the one that made me
cry, by the way, it was the last line.What was that? How do you pronounce my
name, or something like that? It hitsomeplace deep within me, apparently.
(19:00):
And so fading texts and just, you know,and again, formatting in every which way
that people could imagine. So if you'reinterested in that, you should
definitely get Jane's collection justto, just to see what is possible. And
again, it's just printed pages on paper.Nothing super groundbreaking. But here
you are doing things that, some thingsI've never seen before. Kudos. I don't
(19:21):
know which one you had the most fun, orsome of them were suggestions where you
just went for it, but I mean, every poemwas its own distinct signature, or at
least that's how I felt as a reader.
Jane Shi (19:34):
I think that maybe it's worth mentioning that for the last few years,
probably start of undergrad. But beforethat as well, I was interested in film.
And in undergrad, I did make a fewfilms, and I actually wrote some video
poems, and I think that definitelyinfluenced all these shapes, because I
(19:56):
you know, with with videos, you have tothink about where everything is placed.
And your Canvas is a different size, solike when you flip over the page
sideways, you get sort of a screen andthat, that is why the mountains made
apart poem has that quality, because Iwas directly just using the three aspect
(20:16):
ratios that the the film used torepresent these three periods of time in
that film. Yeah,
Robert Kuang (20:22):
there was a visual nature. Even in your poems that have no visuals
to it, nevertheless, you use theformatting of print and also just the
words, using the words as shapes to makenew shapes. Again, I had a very, very
striking and unique experience andthings I've never seen in other spaces
before. And it's also reallyencouraging, by the way, to hear that it
(20:44):
took time to put together thiscollection, and you put your heart and
soul into it, is that just yourphilosophy, there is no limit. Do just
experiment and see what happens. Or howdid you, how did you start to open up
creatively? Part
Jane Shi (20:58):
of it is that I had really amazing editors, and I was able to work
with some really cool people in the lastcouple of years through both my chapbook
leaving Changa on red with brachiosGhost press and echolalia, echolalia
with brick books. And also because Ireally think about Gestalt as well.
(21:21):
Like, sometimes I can't read what I meanGestalt is like the like, the shape of a
whole rather than just the details. Whenyou're reading a poem, you're like, each
word each word, but like, if you can'tlook at something closely because it is
too hard, or if your mind is somewhereelse, you still have the shape so, like,
(21:42):
you can access the poem on like,multiple levels, all throughout, like,
editing this collection. There weretimes where there were certain poems
that I couldn't read, but I could, like,play with the shape forever. Yeah, I
really think that a lot of it goes backto, like, my previous instinct to
protect myself as a kid, I think aboutif you can say this difficult thing, but
(22:08):
have it be in a shape that feels likeyou can handle that was sort of the
philosophy of editing these poems. Thereare times where I'm like, looking at the
words, I'm like, I hate it's not that Ihate the words, but it's that the
feelings that came with it weredifficult. But what if I put these
difficult things in symmetry? What if Irepeated it in different iterations?
(22:33):
What if I faded it out? What if I triedto mimic nature, or what if I resembled
the film, or what if I put it in a CDformat or split in half, and poets like
Douglas Kearney, Diana coy Nguyen, LaylaLee, long soldier, are all poets who
(22:55):
really, really play With form in thatway and through those strategies, they
say something specific that wouldn't besaid if it were in that form. Also like
Ty Amba, Jess OLIO as well. I was justlike, symmetry is so interesting. It's
(23:16):
so there is a lesson in all of thismess. I like like for like, to name
another really nerdy example. My poemabout being a tool fan, I use the
Fibonacci sequence and how I you
Robert Kuang (23:33):
fucking Okay, wait just you have to explain it, because I don't
even know what
Jane Shi (23:40):
do you mean. So, okay, the Fibonacci sequence is the golden ratio
in nature, right? So I don't exactlyremember the numbers like, it's like
112, and then it sort of graduallyspirals out. And that's how you make the
all of these shapes in nature, whetherit is these shells or these formations,
(24:01):
or how we as humans read, understandsymmetry or beauty or whatever. And so
this band from the 90s, they're stillaround, called tool, which I really
enjoyed as a teenager, a song calledlateralis, where they had the chords and
Fibonacci sequence. And I was like,obsessed with this, because I was just
(24:24):
like, this is like, it just stimulatedthat part of my brain that liked to put
things together in that way. And justlike, I know that it's a little, you
know, silly, but it was very, it wasvery, like, compelling to me. I was just
like, if I'm going to write a poem abouttool, it has to be like formatted in the
(24:47):
Fibonacci sequence. So I used the linebreaks and the tabs in that format, and
that created a sort of like a wave ineach stanza that i. Really enjoyed,
because I was also talking about EMDR inthe poem. And EMDR, you kind of look
back, it's that bilateral stimulationthing. And I was just like, it all kind
(25:11):
of comes together somehow. Yeah,
Robert Kuang (25:14):
no, it does. It does. It's super cool. Because, you know, we I
sometimes talk about this in a more of awoo woo Oprah way, let's just say, but
you sound like you really know how tofollow your inspiration, and you just go
for it. And I feel like with writers, alot of our blocks can be about fear of
trying things and also just kind of whatis the right decision. How did you
(25:38):
navigate those things when you'replaying with form so freely, and how did
you just kind of remain uninhibited? Ifthat makes sense, the
Jane Shi (25:46):
philosophy or approach of the collection is that we as humans or and
me as a queer, autistic person of thediaspora, we have to kind of be
chameleons. We have to change who weare, sometimes on a heart in a
(26:11):
heartbeat, to adapt to differentsituations. So I think that that was the
approach that I took with formthroughout this collection, and in a
more specific way with each poem, it'slike sometimes the subject kind of
demands that I use a certain form, thelate wood poem. It has a sort of like a
(26:37):
ring, like spiral, a little bit as oneexample, the Hoff lakes, not
firecrackers. Poem, I traced an image oftan Kulu. Pirated DVDs are my cousins. I
chose a play button, like the buttonthat you click play that, plus the poem
(26:58):
that is shaped like a CD. There's likethis, oh, to like the the older formats
of playing music in a way that might getlost in the digital era that we're in.
My editor, Phoebe Wang, kind ofsuggested that 100 punch lines to
procrastinate kicking your bucket couldbe kind of like credits, like rolling
(27:19):
credits at the end of a film, and beingclose to the end of the collection, and
the poem loves each obviously there islike an acknowledgement of the actual
couch format, where there's two partsand then they're put together, sort of
like you're when you're writing a poem,like the shape almost comes together on
(27:40):
its own. If you're writing about aspecific kind of thing,
Robert Kuang (27:44):
I love the ones that kind of look like to do lists or like they
look like Sims bars to me, you know. AndI don't know what your specific
inspiration was, but I've never seenthat particular way of looking at
wording and meaning and poetry. Andyeah, I had to shout that out as well.
Thank you. Yeah. Do you have a favorite,I guess, like a favorite piece that you
(28:08):
wrote, or like a piece that particularlysticks out for you in the collection?
For any reason? I was
Jane Shi (28:15):
very surprised my poem industry of caring. It was originally
just those words and not the collage.Cynthia dewy Oka suggested that I use a
collage form just like Douglas Kearney'spoems. And I was really, really curious.
(28:35):
I was like, Okay, what exactly? BecauseI had seen Douglas caring work before,
but I hadn't seriously figured out,like, what his process was, so I, like,
took some time to listen to him talkabout it. And he talked about how a lot
of the poems he wrote, and they're veryvisual, they're using old texts, and the
(28:58):
texts are actually from the 1800s and hegot those specific words from the
specific collages, so to speak, visualtopography, he would say, from Google
Books, because the licensing, thecopyright licensing, has expired, so you
can, like, freely use those. And so Ihad spent maybe like 10 minutes writing
(29:24):
the words years ago of this poem, but Ispent such a long time composing the
actual collage because I brought in,like so many different sources, and I
was really like thinking about whatDouglas was talking about in terms of
like, when you bring in these textures,you bring in some of the spirit of what
(29:48):
the original text. So when he usesreally, really a racist old text to
speak back to anti blackness or Americaor masculinity or patriarch. Like it
sort of retains that problematic spiritof that original text. And so I was,
yeah, I think that that this poem likeis like fun for me, because I get to
(30:15):
think about all of these differentdocuments that I was looking at,
including a bunch of books anddictionaries that my friends
grandparents left behind. Originallythey were involved with the Chinatown
Library Association as a lot of thosebooks originally came from there, and
(30:37):
then, when they had to sell the houseand old age they a lot of these books
went back to the association, and someof them, my friend didn't want these
books to go to waste, so she like, gavethem to me. And I was, like, had all
these intentions to do something withthese texts or research them, or
whatever. But in the end, it wasactually the literal physical letters
(31:01):
that I used, yeah, and I think thatelement of like, what does the
topography or the original document doin a poem works really well for this
particular subject
Robert Kuang (31:13):
matter, yeah, I'm kind of thinking of, I saw an opera that was
about Angel Island in New York, and itwas inspired by the poems that, like
Chinese immigrants who spent time atAngel Island, carved into the wood of
where they were staying. And so justhaving like images of like the carvings
(31:34):
of the poetry in the slabs of wood wherethey were like, you know, holding
centers and things like that, where itwas so evocative, and the way you were
describing your process reminded me ofhow they viewed the words, the poetry,
but also the impact and what it means.Thank you for talking about your
process, because sometimes the writerlyprocess is not just about the word count
(31:55):
or the words themselves, but you had awhole process after the words had
already been set that was equallyimpactful, you know, and I assuming
maybe you were thinking about publishingand things like that. So, yeah, it's
really interesting to hear about yourprocess. And you've also mentioned a lot
of peers and your support group, yourcommunity, really being able to give you
(32:18):
feedback and things like that. How didyou choose when or who to share certain
things with, especially before they werepublished, I feel
Jane Shi (32:25):
pretty comfortable sharing my first drafts with friends and a few
writing friends as well. I think thatthough, with the process of creating a
book, I really did want to talk withother poets, and that is one of the
reasons why I was really excited to dothe writer studio at SFU the mentor that
(32:53):
I had was Kayla Zaga. Had tin house. Iworked with Diana coy Nguyen, and I
think that, like in those spaces, youcan ask some really pointed questions
about poetry impact of the words, forsomebody who doesn't know about your
context at all, who has, like a just apoet perspective, and I think that that
(33:16):
is just so invaluable. And also I care alot about the political impact of a poem
too. Like I think having poets who sharea similar kind of ethic, like my poet,
poet friend, Sho ayama, gushi ku really,really was supportive in that way, just
(33:37):
because thinking about editing a poem isnot only about the craft of the words,
but also about the impact what it doesin the world, how it can be read in all
these different ways. And so I thinkthat having like a balance of both of
them really helped me feel morecomfortable putting this book out in the
(33:58):
world.
Robert Kuang (33:59):
Do you have any advice for specifically, let's say, poets working
with editors, and what that may looklike. I guess I would say, as someone
with more experience in prose, I alwayswas curious about that, how to actually
improve upon a poem, essentially, andwhat to think about you've given so many
interesting and again, really inspiredexamples of this already, so I want to
(34:21):
acknowledge that. But like, Do you haveany advice for working with editors?
Specifically, I
Jane Shi (34:27):
think that, like, one thing that I learned that I was really
grateful for is that if you understandthe stylistic or different approach that
the editor that you're working with has,you might be able to say, Oh, this is
(34:48):
really good advice, and I will only takesome of it because I want to retain my
original the original spirit. This isnot quite in my style. People or I
disagree with this reading, yeah, Ithink that, like, the editorial process
is very much like a like a conversationwhere you're, like, almost figuring out
(35:10):
on the go, like, what is the poem thatyou're writing? It's sort of like the
poem might be a little fuzzy in thebeginning, but then as you go through
the process, as it becomes clear, yeah,like my editor at brick, Phoebe Wang,
was really, really supportive, and thatwas really, really helpful. Yeah, I had
all these different ideas, but I thinkit takes time to get to know more of the
(35:32):
technical side of editing a manuscript.I think that was definitely something
that I like learned on the go, but I dothink that at the end of the day, like,
it's sort of about like, deciding, hey,this is my approach, this is my style.
There is no universal, like, right wayto do this work. It's like figuring out
(35:53):
what is your voice, what is your mark?
Robert Kuang (35:56):
Yeah, I love what you said about it's a relationship, you know. So
it's like a dance between two peoplethat you cultivate and also that there
are some practical ways in which you cankind of assess their relationship based
on who they've worked with before. Butyeah, that's really interesting to hear,
because I think a lot of people are canstruggle with editing, I suppose, for
lack of better phrasing. So this is likea good process, especially for poets as
(36:20):
well, because, again, I think maybethere's some assumption, especially with
shorter poems, like maybe the personjust wrote it, put it on a piece of
paper, and now it's published, andthat's really not the case at all. So
anything to demystify that part as wellis really helpful, assuming, of course,
if you've experienced things likewriter's block, or taken some breaks
(36:40):
from writing, or had periods ofstruggle, if you experienced those
things, what helped you overcome that inthe process? Yeah, I don't
Jane Shi (36:49):
really think that writer's block is an actual thing. I think there
are times when we are called to dodifferent things, and that is part of
the writing process if you're a writer.I think that, like my biggest, I guess,
block, so to speak, or struggle in thelast few years, is that I really
struggled to read. I struggled to readnovels specifically, and it's partly
(37:16):
because I studied literature inuniversity and it was just very, very
hard to dive back into reading books forpleasure. Yeah, I think that, you know,
there are other ways to engage withliterary things, like film, music, art,
(37:39):
sometimes we don't always have, like,some people were percolating on an idea.
It doesn't really make sense to writesomething when you when you're still
percolating, when you're stillprocessing something, and that's why,
like, sometimes it seems like a writerjust suddenly comes up with this three
page thing or a 10 page thing or 20 pagething, but actually, they've been
(38:02):
writing it in their head for like,years, so I feel like just kind of
honoring the process is, yeah, what I'llsay about that
Robert Kuang (38:12):
thank you for saying that. I've definitely have some that's been in
my noggin for years. I think we, a lotof people, have those, and it's such a
liberating experience to put that onpaper and to externalize it in some
ways. I also want to acknowledge foryou, say, like, writer's block, the way
we conventionally think of it, the wayit has been taught that it may be a
little bit of a myth. Do you want to saymore about it? Or you feel like it's
(38:35):
pretty self explanatory? I think
Jane Shi (38:37):
that, like when you think about writing as you are supposed to
constantly do it, and it'll just whenyou decide that when you're going to
write is when you're going to write, youare sort of assuming that You're a
writer by default and that what'sactually happening for writers is that
(39:04):
they write because they have somethingto say. That's why you know you're not
going to people are not going torespond. Well if you are, say, a white
writer writing about a topic really likerelevant to people of color and not
acknowledging their positionality. Toput it another way, like writing for
(39:26):
writing sake is not a helpful way tothink about this work. People are
writing because they have something tosay, because writing has a role in the
world otherwise. Why don't we becometechnical writers or work for marketing,
for communications.
Robert Kuang (39:44):
You know, you can do that to pay the bills, by the way, technical
writer, financial writer, if you knowhow to write about it, great, you know,
Jane Shi (39:53):
right? It's like we need, like all kinds of writing, but like writing
as literature or art or. Or commentaryor political insight, that is a
different kind of thing, because thereis like a incubation process. You plant
the seed and the flower, the flowercomes out a few months later, and that
(40:14):
whole thing is the writing process,technically, if you're not technically
putting like words to the page. Thatisn't writer's block, that is, you're
doing something else while right,preparing to put words to
Robert Kuang (40:29):
the page right, right, right. Thank you for that distinction.
It's also why sometimes I personally canstruggle with following like The
Artist's Way, or one of those, right?Because I kind of can't always just make
it happen, because I've decided to sitdown to try to make something happen.
Yeah, and you kind of talk about it fromthis way of being the artist in some
meaning, you know, you even say this inyour final acknowledgements at the end
(40:51):
of your collection, your book, theexperience of being held through this
writing and publishing journey has beena poem in and of itself, and that, you
know, certain aspects of your life isalmost poetry. Sometimes you have to
just let things happen and allow thingsto happen on their own terms. But yeah,
what did you mean by specifically? I'llread this here. I'm indebted to the care
(41:13):
and grace that my loved ones extended methroughout writing this collection.
Thank you for holding me when I didn'tknow how that too is a poem. So I guess
I'm just curious if there's if you couldunpack that a little bit. So like,
Jane Shi (41:25):
if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, did the
tree fall? It's kind of like that. Butin this context, it's like we make an
active decision to decide that our lifeis poetry, and we can do that if we want
to. And sometimes we don't think it'spoetry. We think it's all crap. And I
(41:49):
think that there is something very likescary and daring to write poetry in a
world that is trying to say, let's justscroll social media or or, like,
mindlessly consume. Or, to put it morebroadly, it's like, how do we make
(42:09):
meaning in our lives? And of course,like, yeah, like, a lot of the poems
that I write about are about myfriendships and about my loved ones. And
like, I see the poetry in my life, I seethe poetry exactly and the love and care
that people show me, yeah. That was kindof my way of reflecting back onto
people.
Robert Kuang (42:29):
Okay, so taking all of this in, having the support of the
community, the publishing, theengagement, the rewards, in some ways,
does that inform your writing practicegoing forward in any way. I guess this
is my way of teeing up, you know,anything else on the horizon for you and
that you're taking away from this wholejourney. I
Jane Shi (42:48):
honestly haven't really thought about it like I think that,
like, I have way more to say. I have waymore to write about. I don't know if
it'll be another poetry collectionanytime soon, just because I'm also a
prose writer, and sometimes there aremore essays than poems, and but like,
(43:13):
you know, I think that, like as adisabled poet, specifically, I think
that, um, I have to be mindful of theprocess, because I think that there is a
lot of messaging out there thatsuggests, oh, you have to come out with
another project right away. And that is,like, a pace that maybe doesn't
necessarily work for me, you know, like,the thing is, like, this collection
(43:36):
took, like, probably more than fiveyears. So, like, realistically, you
know, like, longer projects would takearound that time for me to do so, but I
really enjoyed working on it, and it wasvery fulfilling to have one day you
don't have the collection, and thenanother day it comes into your house in
(43:57):
a big box.
Robert Kuang (44:00):
Yeah, thank you for sharing that. That's such a I can only
imagine, in some ways, without having,you know, a poetry collection published
in this way and everything, just youknow, when you can still recall the
times when it was a safe document inyour old computer, all the way to now,
not that people are obligated to writeor to be a writer, but that's such a
(44:21):
incredible experience, despite all thechallenges that lie inside of it, as you
mentioned. And also thank you foracknowledging again, that you're not
doing this for the sake of doing it,with regards to pacing and being mindful
of disability and things like that.You're practicing what you preach. Yeah,
thank you. Yeah. Well, is there anythingelse that you want to kind of mention or
(44:43):
put on the table, as I like to say,particularly for listeners who would
like to try poetry, or for aspiring andbeginning writers specifically, so
Jane Shi (44:54):
recently, David Lynch passed away. David Lynch is the director of
twin P. Peaks. I had forgotten that Ireally liked Twin Peaks, and I went to
re watch, and I was like, oh, man, thisis so good. But one of the things that
he said to an artist, when the artistasked him, Do you have any advice for me
(45:17):
as an emerging artist? And he's like,No, there is something so interesting
about that response, because it's sortof saying, like another artist is not
going to be able to tell you how to makeyour art. And I've been thinking about
that a lot, because another person isnot going to tell you how to be
yourself. Another person is not going totell you how you show up when you're
(45:42):
dating people. Another person is notgoing to tell you how to make the art
that you want to put out in the world.So I feel like my biggest thing is just
like, how do you cultivate anenvironment for yourself where you can
be fully yourself? Yeah, I think aboutthis a lot when it comes to all kinds of
(46:05):
art, and it's like, so important to me,because it's like, we live in a world
where it's like everything is kind ofmemes, or like people are trying to get
you to be someone you're not all thetime under capitalism and colonialism.
Yeah, when it comes to like, puttingyour work out there, it's like, what can
you do to make your poem or piece moreof itself? If somebody tells you, hey,
(46:30):
it reminds me of this, and you're like,No, no, that's not what I meant. How do
you make that more of what you actuallymeant? And then afterwards, just kind of
like, trust the process, know that youcan't control after you put the work out
there, it's like, it's almost like nolonger yours. Letting go is is important
(46:51):
and very hard, and then maybe morepractical things like, I find it
sometimes intimidating to figure out howto make, like, other poet friends, but
that is, like, super important. Like,having people that you trust with whom
you could like, hey, what do you thinkof this? What do you think of that?
(47:12):
Yeah, just kind of like finding yourpeople, when it comes to Yeah, people
interested in the same kind of style asyou.
Robert Kuang (47:20):
I love, I love hearing this, and I'm so glad I asked you about
this, because you're right. First ofall, in a world that's you said, very
cookie cutter. That resonated with me. Iheard something recently online that was
like, there's a lot of trying to makesameness happen for the in the name of
equality, even though that's not whatequality is, right, sameness. So here a
(47:41):
little bit of that. I'm curious as afollow up question. You know, the people
who really were a net positive in yourpublishing and writing journey, who did
show up for you, rather than advice,what did they bring you?
Jane Shi (47:53):
Um, I do think that they offer me advice, but yeah,
Robert Kuang (47:58):
sometimes, right? Yeah, you know, like practical
Jane Shi (48:00):
things, right? But I really do think it's like that mirroring, like,
support, yeah, like, like, holding andcreating space for your voice. Like, I
think that's actually the most importantpart, yeah, because sometimes writers
self censor or self reject or feel liketheir work is not up to par, or
whatever, yeah, especially formarginalized writers who are responding
(48:25):
to a tradition of very specific kinds ofwriting, and you're like, who am I to do
this work? Quote, unquote, impostersyndrome, right, right? So I think that
the most impactful thing is just someonesupporting you and saying, Hey, I
believe in your work. I don't know Iwas. I was recently watching the great
Canadian baking Show
Robert Kuang (48:45):
Me too. Oh, my God, it's so good, especially as a distraction
from some of 2025 but go on, every
Jane Shi (48:54):
single Baker was there for a reason, and every single criticism or
feedback they got was because the judgesknew that they could do better. And
obviously, like baking competition andwriting is a little bit different, but
there is like that sort of likesupportive feedback that they're
(49:15):
receiving and watching the baker supporteach other through it was really
heartwarming. And towards like, allthroughout the show, they're starting to
say, like, this type of move is sospecific to you as a baker, and it's
sort of like them reflecting back tothem what they're doing that they may
not see that they're doing. Yeah,
Robert Kuang (49:36):
yeah. And just creating a container of safety, which honestly has
come up a lot recently. You know,there's like meeting deadlines and you
need to put in the time and effort, buta lot of the things comes back to even
in today's conversation. You know, thiswasn't planned, but you talked about
your poetry collection as an experienceof protecting yourself, and out of that
came this collection. But there's justsomething that's been resonating with.
(50:00):
Lately, and all of my conversations withwriters that's around creating a space
where safety is possible, includingsomething like Bake Off. You know, if
you're sick or things are happening,you're safe to try to do your best as a
baker in that setting. And I feel thatthe same way in writers groups and
things like that. I mean, there's beyondthe prestige or like someone famous and
(50:20):
things like that. The ones that were themost life changing were the ones where
we kind of felt safe to experiment or totake risks. And I hear a little bit of
that, maybe in some of what you'resharing, absolutely,
Jane Shi (50:31):
absolutely, like, receiving, like, genuine support is the lifeblood
of,
Robert Kuang (50:36):
yeah. I mean, like in those spaces, then I can be like, Don't
hold back. I can take it and suddenly,like, you know, but that took it was, it
wasn't. It was like an organic thing ofestablishing safety within the group,
um, rather than anything specific,logistical, you know. So, um, yeah,
(50:57):
thank you for sharing that for writersand you know more for us to think about
today. Yeah, I really appreciate yourtime today, and any you know,
interesting journeys that we had, but Ireally look forward to catching up with
you again sometimes, and if people wouldlike to connect with you for any reason
or just find more of your work online.Where can they find you?
Jane Shi (51:18):
Um, they can find me at Jane she.org or on social media. I am one of
those people who did not deleteanything, but I go poetry which is
spelled p, i, p, A, P, A, O, poetry, and
Robert Kuang (51:37):
I will link it as well. Thank you for being the audio file of
today's conversation. All right?
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