April 15, 2025 • 34 mins
Today’s “Side by Side” guest is Billy Wynne, the author of “The Empty Path: Finding Fulfillment through the Radical Art of Lessening.” As a student of Buddhism and mindfulness for 30 years, he received his meditation teaching certification under Jack Kornfield and Tara Brach, and his lay Zen Buddhist ordination from the Zen Center of Denver, where he teaches classes and serves on the board.
In this conversation, we unpack the practice of lessening in a world built on the pursuit of having more, and its connection to Buddhist concepts such as detachment, freedom, and suffering.
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Robert Kuang (00:00):
Bill,
(00:05):
Welcome to Side by Side, a podcast where IRobert Kuang take you inside conversations
with artists, creatives, healers andwarriors taking the charge in their
transformational story.
Today's guest is Billy Winn, the author ofthe empty path finding fulfillment through
(00:26):
the radical art of lessening.
As a student of Buddhism and mindfulnessfor 30 years, he received his meditation
teaching certification under JackKornfield and Tara Brach, and his lay Zen
Buddhist ordination from the Zen Center ofDenver, where he teaches classes and
serves on the board. In this conversation,we unpack the practice of lessening in a
(00:48):
world built on the pursuit of having moreand its connection to Buddhist concepts
such as detachment, freedom and suffering.
You can find more side by side episodes atsidebyside podcast.podbean.com, and, if
you'd like to connect with me about myservices, please visit
(01:10):
www.robertkuanghome.com.
All right, so it's nice to meet you,Billy. I'm speaking to another Colorado.
And I grew up in Longmont when I came toAmerica, and all of my friends went to
Boulder. Did you actually grow up inColorado yourself?
Billy Wynne (01:29):
No, I grew up in Virginia, and I moved out here in 2009 my wife and
my daughter.
Robert Kuang (01:33):
Okay, gotcha how? How's Colorado treating you?
Billy Wynne (01:37):
Oh, amazing. Amazing. Yeah, no, we've got no plans to leave. We're
actually moving to Carbondale in June.
Robert Kuang (01:42):
Oh, nice.
Billy Wynne (01:43):
It's been. We've loved it, the lifestyle, the weather, yeah, yeah.
Robert Kuang (01:47):
You know, growing up 20 minutes outside of Boulder, I didn't know
this because it was just, I was just goingto school, but there was quite the
meditative spiritual, you know, some wouldsay, like a hippie community there that I
just kind of grew up around, but didn'treally recognize at the time. So it's
really funny to be diving in with you. Andcongratulations on your book. By the way,
I'm curious what the writing process waslike for you. What made you decide to take
(02:12):
on this book that I think to some peoplemay be somewhat daunting, and how did this
begin?
Billy Wynne (02:17):
Sure, well, it really happened after I closed Awake, which was
the alcohol-free bar that my wife and Ihad started in Denver. I was decompressing
in the fall of 2022 I write about this inmy book. Kind of reached my wits end in
terms of stress, and I had layered openingthat bar on top of my the rest of my
professional life. So it was very, verybusy time. It was in that fall that I
(02:38):
realized that I had really bought intothis idea of mooring as the path to
happiness and fulfillment. And actuallyit's really the opposite in my, you know,
experience of lessening and distilling ourexperience of life to really be grateful
for what we have. And so that was kind ofthe spark of inspiration and but kind of
more practically speaking, my wife was hadan idea of working on a book at the time,
(03:00):
and she had a book coach, Ruby Warrington,who's an excellent author and book coach
and writes a lot in the alcohol free spaceand other other areas. So I said, Well,
let me talk to Ruby. And you know, becauseI wanted to write about this, this kind of
realization I had around mooring versuslessening. And Ruby had a book coming out
that spring. And so she introduced me toBess Matassa, who became my book coach.
(03:23):
And Bess really helped me turn this kindof hodgepodge of relatively vague ideas
into a more concrete book concept, and shehelped me write the book proposal, which
your listeners may or may not know is akey step in having a non fiction book at
least published, it's really a differentpath for memoirs and fiction, but for non
(03:46):
fiction, a book proposal is really thetried and true way to seek publication.
And so in that I wrote the introduction,and I wrote the chapter four about work,
which is now in the book. And reallythrough that process, with her number one,
I figured out what the book was about.It's about emptiness. Is about my
experience of, you know, the art oflessening, and about my own my own life,
(04:07):
really, in many ways, she taught me a lotabout how to write in terms of, you know,
for a broader audience, to try to takethese, you know, especially with regard to
the Buddhist ideas, kind of esoteric andmaybe mysterious, inaccessible concepts,
into something that hopefully translates,you know, it's practical and meaningful
for anyone, whether they're Buddhist ornot, or have any, you know, background in
that field or not. And so that tookseveral months. And then with that book
(04:31):
proposal, I shopped for an agent. I sentit out to about 20 in 19 said no, and one
said yes, Leslie Meredith, who is now myagent at Dystel, Goderich & Bourret, and
Leslie spent another couple months with merefining the proposal yet again for the
publisher audience, and she said to Delta,20 or so publishers, and again, 19 said
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no, and one said yes, and that was a newworld library. Eckhart Tolle is their kind
of marquee name. They have many othergreat authors that they publish. Andyeah,
and, and then that was probably, let's seethe end of 2023, that I signed that deal.
And then Jason Gardner at New Worldlibrary was like, Okay, write the rest of
the book. I was like, You sure you don'twant to kind of see bits and pieces as I
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go? And he's like, no, just, just make atrack with the introduction and chapter
four that you gave us. Okay? And I waslike, okay, you know, you say so. So I
wrote the remaining nine chapters in thewinter, spring of 24 and sent that
manuscript to him, you know. And I think,I guess, in April, you know, from there
on, it really was more technical. I mean,he was, they were very easy and supportive
(05:40):
to work with. Kind of trusted mycreativity at that point, which I really
appreciate. And so it was, you know, butstill a very, you know, relatively arduous
process of copy editing, just revising andrising, rising revising and then, and that
was really complete in the fall of 24 andit went into production in late fall 24
and so just working on kind of launch,launch activities, and the book came out
(06:02):
last Tuesday. So it's really been goodnessexciting to finally. It's really over two
and a half years later.
Robert Kuang (06:07):
Yeah, you can finally exhale.
Billy Wynne (06:12):
Yeah. I mean, I remember somebody telling me early on when I had
the, you know, I think I had a first draftof a proposal at that point, and he's
like, you know, it's going to take abouttwo years. I was like, No way. How? No
I think people, when they think ofcreative projects, they don't realize
sometimes a labor of love, and sometimespeople are like, Well, why would you do
(06:35):
way. How could it possibly take two years?And it was definitely two years or more
this? And I was like, You need to askevery single author, because they'll tell
you something wildly different, andprobably still will be confusing because
of the labor of love that's involved.
from that point.
Robert Kuang (06:46):
Was there any part of the process that was, like, the most
surprising to you?
Unknown (06:51):
I guess, you know, the process of refining the proposal was, was very
involved and, like, like, you know, justpersistent line by line editing. And
that's really credit to Bess and Leslie,my book coach and agent. And yet the
process with the publisher was not likethat at all. Like I said, it was much more
open. And really they most, 90 pluspercent of their edits were more technical
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in nature, not substantive. So I expectedthat to kind of be the beginning, and then
it would get, you know, even more kind ofin depth, and rewriting the book, really,
with the publisher. And at least for me,in this book, that did not turn out to be
the case. I also, I'll say this alsospeaks to your first question. I
personally really enjoyed the process ofwriting itself. I'm fortunate that I was
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at a spot in my career where I had somefree time and flexibility during the week
to write. It wasn't like nights andweekends. I could write during the day,
and particularly waking up in the morning.You know, my son goes off to school, I get
a cup of coffee and to have a couple hoursat least. And it did take me, I had to
have at least three hours to feel like Icould really get immersed and get some
(08:03):
momentum going and produce, you know, adecent body of work for the day. That part
I really, really enjoyed, felt creative,you know, felt interesting. Like it was
like, Okay, I'm gonna find out what mywords put out today. You know, it's like,
you don't know until you just starttapping away at the keyboard, what, what's
gonna appear. Yeah. And so I was like,Well, what am I gonna say about, you know,
play and equanimity today,
Billy Wynne (08:25):
until I write it. So that was actually fun. I it was not like, Oh God, I
Robert Kuang (08:38):
That's so wonderful to hear, because people often get there's a
particular image that people have of likethe solitude, suffering writer, so to
speak. So it's really nice to hear thatnumber one is a collaborative process at
the end of the day. But also number two,it can definitely be born out of a little
gotta write 1000 pages today. Or, youknow, it wasn't, I didn't look at it that
bit of joy. And it makes sense,considering your book is called The Empty
(09:00):
Path you're exploring, kind of a differentway of looking at these words that I think
the than what people are generally used towhen you think of emptiness and also the
practice of lessening, which are twotopics that will basically be focusing on
this conversation. People might bethinking of a lack or to do without or to
be without, but this book is reallyspeaking on these two terms, really, or
(09:23):
concepts very differently. So maybe we canjust start there. It's very broad. But how
way, and it didn't feel that way at thetime. It was actually that was the most
do you approach these ideas and why arethey important to you?
Yeah, well, thank you. So right gets rightto the heart of the book, and I think that
the standard kind of definition andunderstanding of emptiness is the reason
that it is usually skipped over entirelyor given, you know, a very light brush in
(09:46):
books about Buddhism. You know, becauselots of lots of books about Buddhism are
out there, and many of them talk aboutcompassion and love and joy and peace. And
you know, all of those are wonderfulfruits of Buddhist thought and prayer.
fun part.
Practice, also, of course, thought andpractice and many other spiritual
(10:07):
traditions. And yet emptiness, for me, iskind of at the core, like, you know, the
understanding of emptiness, therealization of emptiness, is really at the
core of the of the tradition that thatunlocks all of these, you know, the bounty
(10:31):
of these gifts of life that we can thenexperience. But it's kind of, it's a
little bit tricky, especially at firstglance, to understand why, rather than
nihilism or meaninglessness, or, you know,sort of despair, emptiness is really the
(10:55):
nature of things, that is why nothing isseparate, right? It's, it's, you know, we
can we have this, I think, kind of primalfeeling that, that there's some kind of
unity or oneness to our existence, right?That we get different glimpses of in
(11:19):
different ways, in different you know, inour life. And I the way that Buddhism sort
of explains why that is the case for me,is the most direct and clear. And at the
heart of it is emptiness. And there's acouple of different aspects of emptiness
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which help us understand what it is that Igo into detail in the book. One of them is
impermanence. So all things you know, kindof come into being and go out of being,
and also in every moment, all things arechanging and becoming something different,
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even, you know, moment to moment, right?It's not the same river. It's not the same
person stepping in the river. No personcan step into the same river, you know,
twice. So it's that, that basic concept,and then the other is the idea of what
(12:34):
Buddha called no self, which basicallyjust means that if you examine something
Yeah, you know, this is a very early quote, I believe. And I just
with chair or this cup or ourselves, andyou look at all the different aspects of
wanted to read this out loud from yourbook. "After exhausting every other
strategy, from excessively indulgenthedonism to total ascetic abandonment, the
it as it's presented here and now, butalso the things that contributed to it
Buddha saw the emptiness of all things, ofevery manner in which we experience our
(12:58):
coming into being, and all the differentways of thinking about it and so forth,
lives, as the Heart Sutra says it was thisprofound insight that enabled him to
sunder the bonds, abandon the attachmentsthat create suffering."
not one of those things makes the thingwhat it is. Is it the plastic, or is the
And so initially, even as someone who'sfamiliar, at least with the concepts
without being a practicing Buddhist,emptiness and detachment and all of that,
there's like a I don't want that automaticreaction sometimes. And yet the word that
I think people really understand is that,oh, our attachm ents are is what creates
suffering. And I do think as much as thosewords are somewhat like people don't
water, or is it, you know, what makes thecup a cup? And if you really, and I do
understand them, people do understandsuffering. And there's always that desire
to reduce and lessen suffering, and peoplehave been trying to figure that out for a
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long time. So I just wanted to connectthat as well, that a lot of this has to do
with the fact that we walk into sufferingover and over again.
this a couple times throughout the book,because it's really a key thing to try to
Billy Wynne (13:23):
Yeah, yeah. And it's really this, this idea that that I'm over here
and that thing that, you know, either Idesire or I want to avoid is over there,
understand there's not one thing, the factthat there's this kind of inherent,
you know, and I'm over here and thatperson is over there, and we are separate.
abiding identity to things is also a lensfor viewing its emptiness. And when things
Is, is why suffering arises, right? It'swhy we feel scarcity, it's why we feel
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fear, it's why we feel craving. The reasonthat the recognition and inquiry into
are empty, they don't have boundaries,they are not separate. So that's kind of
emptiness is helpful is because it helpsus soften those attachments. We start to
the one way to understand how really, weare not separate from all those things
see things differently, and we become lessattached to them, whether it's be craving
or aversion, and that's really what helpsus ease the suffering in our own lives and
around us, because these boundaries thatwe imagine to be there are not really, not
(14:08):
more, you know, kind of specifically, whatit needs is that sad things are going to
really, the final word you know, on howthese things are really tapping into that.
keep happening, frustrating things aregoing to, you know, just all of that is
going to keep life is going to keephappening. But we can be with those
And it takes a book to really try tounderstand. It takes examples from life.
experiences in a different way. So therather just being kind of tossed around by
(14:28):
It takes meditation practices to reallysink into this idea of emptiness. But when
the waves of our, you know, the experienceof our life, we know we can have a kind of
this abiding piece, right, that that thewaves of life cannot really, you know,
we do, we really can change our experienceof life. And it is very practical here and
push aside, and the way, you know, a keyway, at least, to tap into that is through
now, and it does start to open up thesebenefits of our own life, and also the
this experience of emptiness, and alsomeditation practices and other other sort
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Buddhist tradition of joy and peace and happiness.
of features of this path of lessening thatI outline in the book.
Robert Kuang (14:59):
Yeah, and I want to go into the kind of the structure of each chapter.
It's very deliberate, and they're kind ofdifferent, different components, right?
And it's very deliberately structured fromthe more autobiographical portions, which
I found deeply moving. And also, I justappreciate anyone who's willing to share
with that level of transparency to guidedmeditations, to the discussion of
(15:21):
concepts. Can you talk about how youformulated these chapters that way?
Billy Wynne (15:25):
Yes. So yeah, thank you for touching on that. There's really three
kind of legs to the stool of the book ineach chapter, and each one starts with an
autobiographical anecdote from my life.And the reason for that is a couple fold
number one, I did want to. I felt likejust launching into Buddhist ideas and
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meditation practices would be incompletewithout demonstrating how they have
manifested in my own life and reallyanchoring them there. And I didn't want to
also, you know, kind of pretend. I call itthe I once was lost and now and found, you
know, narrative arc where it's like, okay,I was a mess before and now, and a lot of
books follow the start, right? And now I'mlike, you know, cured, and everything's
(16:07):
wonderful, but everybody knows that's nothow life actually is. I've never met
anyone who life is like that for so thetruth is that that we had these
experiences, and hopefully we learnedsomething from them, right? And we we find
new practices, we discover new wisdom, andwe start to integrate these into our life
and and yes, we can change. I mean, that'sthe hopeful part of this book, and what I
(16:28):
hope people get from it is like theunderlying message is that, like, You are
worthy of peace and joy in your life, andyou're you know, you can experience it
more frequently, and there are ways thatyou can do that. But at the same time, the
wheel of life continues to turn. And it'snot, it's not that pain and discomfort go
away, but that, you know, you become morecomfortable with them, and you kind of can
(16:51):
learn how to navigate them. So anyway, sothat that's key reason why
autobiographical component is there, andthen, really, yeah, there's, there's a
portion of each chapter. There's adifferent facet of the jewel of emptiness.
So it's, there's non self, there'simpermanence, there's kind of the
interdependence of things, there'sequanimity, I talk about forgiveness.
(17:11):
There's just different teachings that canhelp us get closer and more personally
intimate with this core idea of emptiness.And then, and then, yes, each chapter ends
with a guided meditation. And folks canalso listen to those on my website, Billy
win.com because it's a little funky toread a meditation while you're trying to
meditate. So and there it is really tobecause it's one thing to understand. You
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know, with our discursive, intellectualmind, some of these ideas and emptiness
is, you know, the Paramount example ofthis. It's like it can make sense to us,
sort of on paper and words, but unless wereally feel it in our bones and our
marrow, it's probably not going to changeour life. And that's where meditation can
be important. It's like you really want tosettle into this and feel, you know, the
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truth of this for yourself you know, firstperson perspective, that's when it's
really going to start to have atransformative effect. And so that's why
the meditations are there.
Robert Kuang (18:07):
Thank you for sharing that. Because, you know, I think people think
of, well, these practices are there when Ihave the time and space and quiet, you
know, finally the kids are out of thehouse, and then maybe I can look at this
and try to sit and be with my thoughts andfeelings, right?
Such is life, it may not always be thecase, so I'm curious. You know, readers
should really dive into your book, becauseyou do share quite a bit about your life.
(18:30):
But can you give an example of when it mayhave been very challenging to practice
emptiness and detachment and lessening,and what happened after?
Billy Wynne (18:38):
Gosh, well, how about this morning.
I get the car. So I dropped my son off atschool, and I don't want to over share
here, but let's just say he, you know,wants to have a party at our house this
spring, and so I was working on thatquestion, and we want to try to my wife,
and I want to try to make that work, butthere are certain parameters that we have
(19:00):
to put around that. He's in eighth grade.I've already said that, so, you know, put
around that concept. And, you know, hedidn't like all the things that I was
saying. And so it was very challengingbecause, you know, from the My kind of ego
self, which was definitely arising as itdoes, it's like, Hey, I'm trying to be
nice here, you know, we're trying to makethis work for you. And you're, you know,
kind of now negotiating the details, youknow, that kind of thing. So, like, what
(19:24):
the heck is, you know, a natural response,and very often is the response that we
give in difficult circumstances. But alsoI was remembering, and I've had done this
1000s of times, and I do talk about acouple of incidents with my my son, I also
have a daughter, you know, and then withmy wife, you know, these people who are
close to us, it's often people we love themost. This could be the most difficult,
(19:45):
right? We're the most attached. And I amkeeping in mind in this conversation this
morning, fortunately, it doesn't alwayshappen, you know, I really, really love
this person, and I see him in a broadercontext than just this conversation. First
of all, you know, I see.
The depth of his life experience and allof that, but also that I do have this, as
(20:18):
I've practiced more and more and more thiskind of abiding sense of the underlying,
you know, emptiness and therefore unity ofthings, it does create a peaceful
(20:53):
undertone to our lives, right? More often,there are times where it goes away, goes
out the window. But more and more itstarts to just be there. It starts to it
Robert Kuang (21:16):
I think, you know, with family, it's often probably the best
learning practice ground, if you will,first for some of these things, and you do
touch on towards the kind of the emptypath, there's the practice of lessening,
starts to be, some call it the centeredlike, you know, the centered place where
and maybe we can parse that out a littlebit more for people, because from when I
am interpreting listening, it's like amaybe a little bit of a reframe meaning.
(21:37):
Kind of people when see it, they may seeit in a very like, literal way, but you're
talking about it in a very specific way.Can you unpack that a little bit?
it's like, even though his response is notwhat I prefer, right? I don't have to
Billy Wynne (21:46):
Yeah. Thank you. So yes. Also a word that I think on its face, you know,
is often interpreted differently. So thisis not about, you know, giving quitting
your job, or, you know, saying thatmaterial comforts are wrong, or that
reading another book is wrong, or that youknow, going on a meditation retreat is
wrong. The crux of lessening is that thebelief that those things are what are
trigger off into raising my voice and, youknow, shaming him, and, you know, kind of
(22:08):
going to make you happy, right, are goingto fulfill you is, actually, is, is not
the path to the solution. It's the path tothe harm, right? It's the cause of
suffering. Is the idea that I'm not wholeand complete, I am lacking, and therefore
I need these externally, you know, theseexternal things to to fill this hole and
that direction. I can still I can I can beclear. I don't have to agree to everything
to make me happy and feel like I'mfulfilled and complete. Because when we
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approach things with that attitude, itnever works, right? Because we never
actually believed in our own worthiness.We just, we just thought we, you know, the
next thing was going to be the thing thatfinally, you know, solves our kind of
that he's saying, but I can do it in agentler, more measured tone, which is,
fundamental problem. So the path oflessening is not about saying you can't
have a family and a job and a busy lifeand ambition and like all these things
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which I have, and most people you knowhave, but it is saying that we can change
our experience of those things to reallydistill down our, you know, the way we
which is going to be more effective? Isubmit. I'm not an expert in parenting,
approach these different parts of ourlife. And instead of thinking, okay, more
and more, I need more strategies. I needmore time. I need more, you know, effort.
I need, you know that that's going to bethat's going to make me a better parent.
(23:14):
For example, you know, I need to say morethings to my son. I need to add more
but typically, I think in the long run, atleast, it's that's actually a more
instruction to his you know, really it's,it's lessening my belief and my attachment
and my my application of those variousfacets, which, you know, are often
unnecessary, and when things are moredistilled and really simplified, then I
parent, you know, and then it's often moreat ease. It's clearer. I'm less easily
effective strategy, and it feels better atthe time, and it yields better results in
(23:36):
frustrated in the process you know, or youapply it to your job, or whatever your
goals or you know, your kind of yourinterests are in your life, whatever you
apply it to, it's not just more pleasantto do it. It tends to yield a better
outcome when we can approach it that wayof lessening which, and another way of
the future. So that's a small case, andyou know, it wasn't flawless performance
thinking about it, is to be less attachedto the outcome of the activity, right? So
(23:58):
one thing I talk about in the compassionchapter, like, in terms of, like, let's
say you have a cause, like a socialjustice, you know, outcome, or, you know,
a political belief, or something that thatyou have, we all have them. It's like
yet, right? But anybody had been thereother than me and him, you would know,
there's one way to go about it, whichsays, I have to get this at all costs. The
people who are against me are dumb, right?I have to defeat them. They're the enemy.
(24:21):
And it's very easy, especially inpolitics, to slip into that, that mindset,
right? Or we can say, you know, this is acomplicated issue. I have a point of view.
but, but I felt, I felt I felt myself okaybeen here before, and I felt myself kind
I believe in my point of view, and I'mgoing to take steps to, you know, address
this injustice that I perceive to be inthe world. There's other people with
different points of view, you know, andI'm going to address and navigate these
(24:43):
steps compassionately. I'm going tolisten, I'm going to be understanding, I'm
of sticking closer to that center than Icertainly have in other cases,
going to be honest and have integritymyself, but I'm not going to, like, fall
into this, like I'm on this side of the,you know, line, you're on the other side.
And, you know, we're just going to fightit out, right? So it.
Yeah, we do this all the time in lots ofdifferent contexts. But I think it's not
(25:04):
again, not only is it is, I think, kind ofright, but it is. It is more effective,
you know, to to approach and less burnout,and, you know, less frustration and less
your pain in the process. So I do thinkthat that, and I say this in the book, how
we go about our our endeavors, whateverthey may be, is as important as whether or
not the Endeavor is successful, right, orwhatever the outcome of the Endeavor is.
(25:29):
It's like we are making our presence andhaving our impact as we go right, as much
as we are kind of at the end of whateverthis thing might be.
Robert Kuang (25:38):
Thank you for saying that about the art of lessening, because you
gave some examples in the book of whatthat could look like. And it was so
expansive, and it opened up myperspective, particularly you talk about
lessening with time, and you talk aboutthis relative to lots of other important,
you know, pillars in our life as well. Butone thing I did, because I moved from New
(25:58):
York City to Vancouver, Canada, last year,and we're about to move again. And there
was a lot of like, Oh, I'm gonna do thisafter. Like, I started doing like, this is
for after the move. This is for before themove. And I was doing a lot of that for
like, an entire year, because we knew wewere gonna be moving. And I really had to
examine and inquire with myself why I wasdoing that, what made, what were the
(26:21):
things I was, you know, I could not dealwith until after the move. And it was such
an arbitrary, interesting thing, becauseit was all up to me. It was a choice,
right? The way I saw it, yeah, and thingsstill happen, but it was just my framing
of it was just so interesting. Inparticular, you talk about things with
time and also particularly with work aswell. So obviously, don't quit the job.
(26:42):
But you know, one of the biggest thingspeople talk about that's a problem in
their life would probably be work ordissatisfaction around that. Can you share
a little bit about your perspective onthis practice as it relates to like,
career and money and things like that?
Billy Wynne (26:57):
Sure, sure. So, so I think it's, interesting, because with time, with
work and kind of material, you know,comfort and things, there is the reality,
right? I mean, you know, we have 24 hoursin a day. So, so again, this is not about
denying, right, authentic experience oflife, right? Which there are hours and
those types of things, you know, and thereare, there's a need for, you know, shelter
(27:19):
and clothing and food, and there may be,you know, perfectly healthy appetite for
comfort, you know, more travel to Europeand different things that people might
want to do. So this doesn't dismiss any ofthat. What it says is that how we, you
know, feel constrained by time or by thesematerial pressures or by our work is vast
majority of that is self imposed, right?So we can decide what our relationship
(27:41):
with time is. We can decide how we comeforth with our boss, right? We can decide
how we, you know, want to experience ourwork day, right? So, so the, you know,
it's also, maybe ironically, overlaps withthe chapter about love, where I talk about
response, freedom and responsibility,right? Freedom and responsibility. Right,
freedom and responsibility. We are tend tobelieve that, you know, our circumstances
(28:04):
define how we feel, right? We it's kindof, it's like a co dependence with our
circumstances. We we give upresponsibility for how we feel to the
things around us. It's like, well, I havea memo due tomorrow, and therefore I am
stressed and unhappy, right? And I can'tthink about other things. This is a
painful experience, and hopefully I'll getit done on time, right? So that's one way
(28:25):
to experience it, right? Another way islike, there's actually something
interesting here. You know, I took thisjob for a reason, some reason. Hopefully
it wasn't just for money, you know, maybe,maybe it was, but I had different options.
I chose this path of career or job. Youknow, I can take some pride in this.
There's a creative activity going on here.It might be something very mundane and
(28:47):
technical, but there's, there's somethingcoming out of my brain and onto the paper
here that I can have some fun with and acreativity with. We can choose how we're
going to approach that endeavor, eventhough there are certain constraints that
are undeniable around you know, that thatdo set the context. We can choose our
relationship with those. Those contextualfactors take up a path of peace and
(29:09):
creativity and ease. You know, even invery kind of mundane circumstances,
Robert Kuang (29:13):
Yeah, chop wood, carry water, kind of ease, yeah, sometimes many
people yearn for that kind of simplicity.Isn't that funny? In modern society, we've
advanced so much and some people are like,I just want to lie down.
Billy Wynne (29:28):
Yeah, exactly.
Robert Kuang (29:29):
We have a couple minutes left. And I love to throw two words slash
concept to you, just to see yourperspective, mostly because I'll share a
little bit. You know, I think probably theconcept of belonging and being at home and
freedom are two things that have probablydriven my spiritual search or yearning,
probably my entire life without reallyeven being what to name it at first. Yeah,
(29:54):
and I think a lot of the Buddhist path andpeople who are interested in mindfulness
and taking care.
Or their actions and themselves this way,probably think about belonging and and
freedom and maybe have some struggle withthat. So I'm just curious how you relate
to these two ideas within the Buddhistpath, if you will.
Billy Wynne (30:12):
Sure, sure. Well, first, Sabine Selassie wrote a book called You
Belong. And I do, I do reference it in mybook. It's a really beautiful book, and
it's really centered around this core ideaof belonging. My theme, and I believe,
consistent with hers, if I may say so youknow, is that if we can find that place,
or we can begin to cultivate that placewhere we are whole and complete from the
(30:35):
very beginning, we're not actuallylacking. We are not needing more things
externally to make us, you know, whole andcomplete, then we belong. Right? Wherever
we go, we are at home because we arealready at center, at peace within our own
selves, right, with a deep understandingof kind of where we came from and where
we're going. That is another way of beingin community. It's a way of being in our
(30:59):
space. It's a way of inhabiting our spacethat says that, you know, I have things to
do, I have relationships I need to tendto, but my happiness is not contingent on
the outcome of those things, right? Myhappiness starts from from the inside and
moves outward like this, the belonging,and then the other piece you mentioned
was, oh, freedom, freedom. Thank you.Yeah. So, yeah. So it's really kind of two
(31:23):
sides to the same coin, right? Because,you know, in that space, and I this is
part of the my version of the mettameditation that I offer in the book, and
it's all really how I think about the cruxof my my practice these days is, you know,
feeling free to come forth and greet thenext moment with an open heart, right? I
mean that that is, that is at the heart ofour day to day activities, is we? Yes,
(31:46):
there are contacts, yes, you know, we kindof, we have our authentic life experience,
and sort of those around us. And yes, ourfeet are on the ground. And, you know,
there are the materiality of our authenticlife experience. And at the same time
within that, we are free, you know, weare, we are able to greet the next moment
with an open heart, if we choose to meetit that way, right, whatever it may be.
(32:10):
And it can be very sad and painful, it canbe very frustrating and difficult, or, you
know, it can be very joyful, and, youknow, blissful and and you know, and more
positive side of life. And we are we, youknow, are free to choose how we advance
into that next moment in whatever form itpresents itself to us. And that's really
gets to the true meaning of of happiness.If we can recognize and embody and embrace
(32:35):
that freedom that we have, then it's allgravy. You know, it's all
even this, even in sad moments and like, Imean, like, really sad loss of a loved
one, you know? I mean the pain and thesadness is very real. And at the same
time, there can be this beauty, right?There's care, there's love, there is there
is a depth there that is a very, verymagical and miraculous part of being a
(32:59):
human being, right? And so even as we'recrying and desperate, you know that's
there too. And you know we are free toaccess that does not go away, whatever our
circumstances may be. We are free toaccess that if we cultivate our openness
to it.
Robert Kuang (33:12):
Yeah, and thank you for mentioning the power of choice. I always
like to remind people a lot of this isexploring the power of our choices,
because sometimes people think like you'rejust a follower, right of all whatever?
Yeah, and once again, it's just a reminderof this is looking at what we choose in
any given moment. So I always appreciate agood reminder of that, Billy, for anyone
(33:32):
who wants to find you or connect with you.Where can they do that?
Billy Wynne (33:36):
Yes, they can go to my website, Billywynne.com and they can also
order my book from whatever platformthey'd like that way. And so I'm also on
social, and you can find all that throughmy website.
Robert Kuang (33:49):
Perfect, yeah, and I'll link it as well. So yeah, thank you for your
time today, and thank you for having mejust being part of the ride with the
technical hiccups.
Billy Wynne (33:58):
Oh no, thank you for your patience as well. I'm glad we made it
work. Great to be with you.
Bill,
(00:05):
Welcome to Side by Side, a podcast where IRobert Kuang take you inside conversations
with artists, creatives, healers andwarriors taking the charge in their
transformational story.
Today's guest is Billy Winn, the author ofthe empty path finding fulfillment through
(00:26):
the radical art of lessening.
As a student of Buddhism and mindfulnessfor 30 years, he received his meditation
teaching certification under JackKornfield and Tara Brach, and his lay Zen
Buddhist ordination from the Zen Center ofDenver, where he teaches classes and
serves on the board. In this conversation,we unpack the practice of lessening in a
(00:48):
world built on the pursuit of having moreand its connection to Buddhist concepts
such as detachment, freedom and suffering.
You can find more side by side episodes atsidebyside podcast.podbean.com, and, if
you'd like to connect with me about myservices, please visit
(01:10):
www.robertkuanghome.com.
All right, so it's nice to meet you,Billy. I'm speaking to another Colorado.
And I grew up in Longmont when I came toAmerica, and all of my friends went to
Boulder. Did you actually grow up inColorado yourself?
Billy Wynne (01:29):
No, I grew up in Virginia, and I moved out here in 2009 my wife and
my daughter.
Robert Kuang (01:33):
Okay, gotcha how? How's Colorado treating you?
Billy Wynne (01:37):
Oh, amazing. Amazing. Yeah, no, we've got no plans to leave. We're
actually moving to Carbondale in June.
Robert Kuang (01:42):
Oh, nice.
Billy Wynne (01:43):
It's been. We've loved it, the lifestyle, the weather, yeah, yeah.
Robert Kuang (01:47):
You know, growing up 20 minutes outside of Boulder, I didn't know
this because it was just, I was just goingto school, but there was quite the
meditative spiritual, you know, some wouldsay, like a hippie community there that I
just kind of grew up around, but didn'treally recognize at the time. So it's
really funny to be diving in with you. Andcongratulations on your book. By the way,
I'm curious what the writing process waslike for you. What made you decide to take
(02:12):
on this book that I think to some peoplemay be somewhat daunting, and how did this
begin?
Billy Wynne (02:17):
Sure, well, it really happened after I closed Awake, which was
the alcohol-free bar that my wife and Ihad started in Denver. I was decompressing
in the fall of 2022 I write about this inmy book. Kind of reached my wits end in
terms of stress, and I had layered openingthat bar on top of my the rest of my
professional life. So it was very, verybusy time. It was in that fall that I
(02:38):
realized that I had really bought intothis idea of mooring as the path to
happiness and fulfillment. And actuallyit's really the opposite in my, you know,
experience of lessening and distilling ourexperience of life to really be grateful
for what we have. And so that was kind ofthe spark of inspiration and but kind of
more practically speaking, my wife was hadan idea of working on a book at the time,
(03:00):
and she had a book coach, Ruby Warrington,who's an excellent author and book coach
and writes a lot in the alcohol free spaceand other other areas. So I said, Well,
let me talk to Ruby. And you know, becauseI wanted to write about this, this kind of
realization I had around mooring versuslessening. And Ruby had a book coming out
that spring. And so she introduced me toBess Matassa, who became my book coach.
(03:23):
And Bess really helped me turn this kindof hodgepodge of relatively vague ideas
into a more concrete book concept, and shehelped me write the book proposal, which
your listeners may or may not know is akey step in having a non fiction book at
least published, it's really a differentpath for memoirs and fiction, but for non
(03:46):
fiction, a book proposal is really thetried and true way to seek publication.
And so in that I wrote the introduction,and I wrote the chapter four about work,
which is now in the book. And reallythrough that process, with her number one,
I figured out what the book was about.It's about emptiness. Is about my
experience of, you know, the art oflessening, and about my own my own life,
(04:07):
really, in many ways, she taught me a lotabout how to write in terms of, you know,
for a broader audience, to try to takethese, you know, especially with regard to
the Buddhist ideas, kind of esoteric andmaybe mysterious, inaccessible concepts,
into something that hopefully translates,you know, it's practical and meaningful
for anyone, whether they're Buddhist ornot, or have any, you know, background in
that field or not. And so that tookseveral months. And then with that book
(04:31):
proposal, I shopped for an agent. I sentit out to about 20 in 19 said no, and one
said yes, Leslie Meredith, who is now myagent at Dystel, Goderich & Bourret, and
Leslie spent another couple months with merefining the proposal yet again for the
publisher audience, and she said to Delta,20 or so publishers, and again, 19 said
(04:51):
no, and one said yes, and that was a newworld library. Eckhart Tolle is their kind
of marquee name. They have many othergreat authors that they publish. Andyeah,
and, and then that was probably, let's seethe end of 2023, that I signed that deal.
And then Jason Gardner at New Worldlibrary was like, Okay, write the rest of
the book. I was like, You sure you don'twant to kind of see bits and pieces as I
(05:14):
go? And he's like, no, just, just make atrack with the introduction and chapter
four that you gave us. Okay? And I waslike, okay, you know, you say so. So I
wrote the remaining nine chapters in thewinter, spring of 24 and sent that
manuscript to him, you know. And I think,I guess, in April, you know, from there
on, it really was more technical. I mean,he was, they were very easy and supportive
(05:40):
to work with. Kind of trusted mycreativity at that point, which I really
appreciate. And so it was, you know, butstill a very, you know, relatively arduous
process of copy editing, just revising andrising, rising revising and then, and that
was really complete in the fall of 24 andit went into production in late fall 24
and so just working on kind of launch,launch activities, and the book came out
(06:02):
last Tuesday. So it's really been goodnessexciting to finally. It's really over two
and a half years later.
Robert Kuang (06:07):
Yeah, you can finally exhale.
Billy Wynne (06:12):
Yeah. I mean, I remember somebody telling me early on when I had
the, you know, I think I had a first draftof a proposal at that point, and he's
like, you know, it's going to take abouttwo years. I was like, No way. How? No
I think people, when they think ofcreative projects, they don't realize
sometimes a labor of love, and sometimespeople are like, Well, why would you do
(06:35):
way. How could it possibly take two years?And it was definitely two years or more
this? And I was like, You need to askevery single author, because they'll tell
you something wildly different, andprobably still will be confusing because
of the labor of love that's involved.
from that point.
Robert Kuang (06:46):
Was there any part of the process that was, like, the most
surprising to you?
Unknown (06:51):
I guess, you know, the process of refining the proposal was, was very
involved and, like, like, you know, justpersistent line by line editing. And
that's really credit to Bess and Leslie,my book coach and agent. And yet the
process with the publisher was not likethat at all. Like I said, it was much more
open. And really they most, 90 pluspercent of their edits were more technical
(07:16):
in nature, not substantive. So I expectedthat to kind of be the beginning, and then
it would get, you know, even more kind ofin depth, and rewriting the book, really,
with the publisher. And at least for me,in this book, that did not turn out to be
the case. I also, I'll say this alsospeaks to your first question. I
personally really enjoyed the process ofwriting itself. I'm fortunate that I was
(07:41):
at a spot in my career where I had somefree time and flexibility during the week
to write. It wasn't like nights andweekends. I could write during the day,
and particularly waking up in the morning.You know, my son goes off to school, I get
a cup of coffee and to have a couple hoursat least. And it did take me, I had to
have at least three hours to feel like Icould really get immersed and get some
(08:03):
momentum going and produce, you know, adecent body of work for the day. That part
I really, really enjoyed, felt creative,you know, felt interesting. Like it was
like, Okay, I'm gonna find out what mywords put out today. You know, it's like,
you don't know until you just starttapping away at the keyboard, what, what's
gonna appear. Yeah. And so I was like,Well, what am I gonna say about, you know,
play and equanimity today,
Billy Wynne (08:25):
until I write it. So that was actually fun. I it was not like, Oh God, I
Robert Kuang (08:38):
That's so wonderful to hear, because people often get there's a
particular image that people have of likethe solitude, suffering writer, so to
speak. So it's really nice to hear thatnumber one is a collaborative process at
the end of the day. But also number two,it can definitely be born out of a little
gotta write 1000 pages today. Or, youknow, it wasn't, I didn't look at it that
bit of joy. And it makes sense,considering your book is called The Empty
(09:00):
Path you're exploring, kind of a differentway of looking at these words that I think
the than what people are generally used towhen you think of emptiness and also the
practice of lessening, which are twotopics that will basically be focusing on
this conversation. People might bethinking of a lack or to do without or to
be without, but this book is reallyspeaking on these two terms, really, or
(09:23):
concepts very differently. So maybe we canjust start there. It's very broad. But how
way, and it didn't feel that way at thetime. It was actually that was the most
do you approach these ideas and why arethey important to you?
Yeah, well, thank you. So right gets rightto the heart of the book, and I think that
the standard kind of definition andunderstanding of emptiness is the reason
that it is usually skipped over entirelyor given, you know, a very light brush in
(09:46):
books about Buddhism. You know, becauselots of lots of books about Buddhism are
out there, and many of them talk aboutcompassion and love and joy and peace. And
you know, all of those are wonderfulfruits of Buddhist thought and prayer.
fun part.
Practice, also, of course, thought andpractice and many other spiritual
(10:07):
traditions. And yet emptiness, for me, iskind of at the core, like, you know, the
understanding of emptiness, therealization of emptiness, is really at the
core of the of the tradition that thatunlocks all of these, you know, the bounty
(10:31):
of these gifts of life that we can thenexperience. But it's kind of, it's a
little bit tricky, especially at firstglance, to understand why, rather than
nihilism or meaninglessness, or, you know,sort of despair, emptiness is really the
(10:55):
nature of things, that is why nothing isseparate, right? It's, it's, you know, we
can we have this, I think, kind of primalfeeling that, that there's some kind of
unity or oneness to our existence, right?That we get different glimpses of in
(11:19):
different ways, in different you know, inour life. And I the way that Buddhism sort
of explains why that is the case for me,is the most direct and clear. And at the
heart of it is emptiness. And there's acouple of different aspects of emptiness
(11:44):
which help us understand what it is that Igo into detail in the book. One of them is
impermanence. So all things you know, kindof come into being and go out of being,
and also in every moment, all things arechanging and becoming something different,
(12:10):
even, you know, moment to moment, right?It's not the same river. It's not the same
person stepping in the river. No personcan step into the same river, you know,
twice. So it's that, that basic concept,and then the other is the idea of what
(12:34):
Buddha called no self, which basicallyjust means that if you examine something
Yeah, you know, this is a very early quote, I believe. And I just
with chair or this cup or ourselves, andyou look at all the different aspects of
wanted to read this out loud from yourbook. "After exhausting every other
strategy, from excessively indulgenthedonism to total ascetic abandonment, the
it as it's presented here and now, butalso the things that contributed to it
Buddha saw the emptiness of all things, ofevery manner in which we experience our
(12:58):
coming into being, and all the differentways of thinking about it and so forth,
lives, as the Heart Sutra says it was thisprofound insight that enabled him to
sunder the bonds, abandon the attachmentsthat create suffering."
not one of those things makes the thingwhat it is. Is it the plastic, or is the
And so initially, even as someone who'sfamiliar, at least with the concepts
without being a practicing Buddhist,emptiness and detachment and all of that,
there's like a I don't want that automaticreaction sometimes. And yet the word that
I think people really understand is that,oh, our attachm ents are is what creates
suffering. And I do think as much as thosewords are somewhat like people don't
water, or is it, you know, what makes thecup a cup? And if you really, and I do
understand them, people do understandsuffering. And there's always that desire
to reduce and lessen suffering, and peoplehave been trying to figure that out for a
(13:20):
long time. So I just wanted to connectthat as well, that a lot of this has to do
with the fact that we walk into sufferingover and over again.
this a couple times throughout the book,because it's really a key thing to try to
Billy Wynne (13:23):
Yeah, yeah. And it's really this, this idea that that I'm over here
and that thing that, you know, either Idesire or I want to avoid is over there,
understand there's not one thing, the factthat there's this kind of inherent,
you know, and I'm over here and thatperson is over there, and we are separate.
abiding identity to things is also a lensfor viewing its emptiness. And when things
Is, is why suffering arises, right? It'swhy we feel scarcity, it's why we feel
(13:45):
fear, it's why we feel craving. The reasonthat the recognition and inquiry into
are empty, they don't have boundaries,they are not separate. So that's kind of
emptiness is helpful is because it helpsus soften those attachments. We start to
the one way to understand how really, weare not separate from all those things
see things differently, and we become lessattached to them, whether it's be craving
or aversion, and that's really what helpsus ease the suffering in our own lives and
around us, because these boundaries thatwe imagine to be there are not really, not
(14:08):
more, you know, kind of specifically, whatit needs is that sad things are going to
really, the final word you know, on howthese things are really tapping into that.
keep happening, frustrating things aregoing to, you know, just all of that is
going to keep life is going to keephappening. But we can be with those
And it takes a book to really try tounderstand. It takes examples from life.
experiences in a different way. So therather just being kind of tossed around by
(14:28):
It takes meditation practices to reallysink into this idea of emptiness. But when
the waves of our, you know, the experienceof our life, we know we can have a kind of
this abiding piece, right, that that thewaves of life cannot really, you know,
we do, we really can change our experienceof life. And it is very practical here and
push aside, and the way, you know, a keyway, at least, to tap into that is through
now, and it does start to open up thesebenefits of our own life, and also the
this experience of emptiness, and alsomeditation practices and other other sort
(14:53):
Buddhist tradition of joy and peace and happiness.
of features of this path of lessening thatI outline in the book.
Robert Kuang (14:59):
Yeah, and I want to go into the kind of the structure of each chapter.
It's very deliberate, and they're kind ofdifferent, different components, right?
And it's very deliberately structured fromthe more autobiographical portions, which
I found deeply moving. And also, I justappreciate anyone who's willing to share
with that level of transparency to guidedmeditations, to the discussion of
(15:21):
concepts. Can you talk about how youformulated these chapters that way?
Billy Wynne (15:25):
Yes. So yeah, thank you for touching on that. There's really three
kind of legs to the stool of the book ineach chapter, and each one starts with an
autobiographical anecdote from my life.And the reason for that is a couple fold
number one, I did want to. I felt likejust launching into Buddhist ideas and
(15:45):
meditation practices would be incompletewithout demonstrating how they have
manifested in my own life and reallyanchoring them there. And I didn't want to
also, you know, kind of pretend. I call itthe I once was lost and now and found, you
know, narrative arc where it's like, okay,I was a mess before and now, and a lot of
books follow the start, right? And now I'mlike, you know, cured, and everything's
(16:07):
wonderful, but everybody knows that's nothow life actually is. I've never met
anyone who life is like that for so thetruth is that that we had these
experiences, and hopefully we learnedsomething from them, right? And we we find
new practices, we discover new wisdom, andwe start to integrate these into our life
and and yes, we can change. I mean, that'sthe hopeful part of this book, and what I
(16:28):
hope people get from it is like theunderlying message is that, like, You are
worthy of peace and joy in your life, andyou're you know, you can experience it
more frequently, and there are ways thatyou can do that. But at the same time, the
wheel of life continues to turn. And it'snot, it's not that pain and discomfort go
away, but that, you know, you become morecomfortable with them, and you kind of can
(16:51):
learn how to navigate them. So anyway, sothat that's key reason why
autobiographical component is there, andthen, really, yeah, there's, there's a
portion of each chapter. There's adifferent facet of the jewel of emptiness.
So it's, there's non self, there'simpermanence, there's kind of the
interdependence of things, there'sequanimity, I talk about forgiveness.
(17:11):
There's just different teachings that canhelp us get closer and more personally
intimate with this core idea of emptiness.And then, and then, yes, each chapter ends
with a guided meditation. And folks canalso listen to those on my website, Billy
win.com because it's a little funky toread a meditation while you're trying to
meditate. So and there it is really tobecause it's one thing to understand. You
(17:37):
know, with our discursive, intellectualmind, some of these ideas and emptiness
is, you know, the Paramount example ofthis. It's like it can make sense to us,
sort of on paper and words, but unless wereally feel it in our bones and our
marrow, it's probably not going to changeour life. And that's where meditation can
be important. It's like you really want tosettle into this and feel, you know, the
(17:58):
truth of this for yourself you know, firstperson perspective, that's when it's
really going to start to have atransformative effect. And so that's why
the meditations are there.
Robert Kuang (18:07):
Thank you for sharing that. Because, you know, I think people think
of, well, these practices are there when Ihave the time and space and quiet, you
know, finally the kids are out of thehouse, and then maybe I can look at this
and try to sit and be with my thoughts andfeelings, right?
Such is life, it may not always be thecase, so I'm curious. You know, readers
should really dive into your book, becauseyou do share quite a bit about your life.
(18:30):
But can you give an example of when it mayhave been very challenging to practice
emptiness and detachment and lessening,and what happened after?
Billy Wynne (18:38):
Gosh, well, how about this morning.
I get the car. So I dropped my son off atschool, and I don't want to over share
here, but let's just say he, you know,wants to have a party at our house this
spring, and so I was working on thatquestion, and we want to try to my wife,
and I want to try to make that work, butthere are certain parameters that we have
(19:00):
to put around that. He's in eighth grade.I've already said that, so, you know, put
around that concept. And, you know, hedidn't like all the things that I was
saying. And so it was very challengingbecause, you know, from the My kind of ego
self, which was definitely arising as itdoes, it's like, Hey, I'm trying to be
nice here, you know, we're trying to makethis work for you. And you're, you know,
kind of now negotiating the details, youknow, that kind of thing. So, like, what
(19:24):
the heck is, you know, a natural response,and very often is the response that we
give in difficult circumstances. But alsoI was remembering, and I've had done this
1000s of times, and I do talk about acouple of incidents with my my son, I also
have a daughter, you know, and then withmy wife, you know, these people who are
close to us, it's often people we love themost. This could be the most difficult,
(19:45):
right? We're the most attached. And I amkeeping in mind in this conversation this
morning, fortunately, it doesn't alwayshappen, you know, I really, really love
this person, and I see him in a broadercontext than just this conversation. First
of all, you know, I see.
The depth of his life experience and allof that, but also that I do have this, as
(20:18):
I've practiced more and more and more thiskind of abiding sense of the underlying,
you know, emptiness and therefore unity ofthings, it does create a peaceful
(20:53):
undertone to our lives, right? More often,there are times where it goes away, goes
out the window. But more and more itstarts to just be there. It starts to it
Robert Kuang (21:16):
I think, you know, with family, it's often probably the best
learning practice ground, if you will,first for some of these things, and you do
touch on towards the kind of the emptypath, there's the practice of lessening,
starts to be, some call it the centeredlike, you know, the centered place where
and maybe we can parse that out a littlebit more for people, because from when I
am interpreting listening, it's like amaybe a little bit of a reframe meaning.
(21:37):
Kind of people when see it, they may seeit in a very like, literal way, but you're
talking about it in a very specific way.Can you unpack that a little bit?
it's like, even though his response is notwhat I prefer, right? I don't have to
Billy Wynne (21:46):
Yeah. Thank you. So yes. Also a word that I think on its face, you know,
is often interpreted differently. So thisis not about, you know, giving quitting
your job, or, you know, saying thatmaterial comforts are wrong, or that
reading another book is wrong, or that youknow, going on a meditation retreat is
wrong. The crux of lessening is that thebelief that those things are what are
trigger off into raising my voice and, youknow, shaming him, and, you know, kind of
(22:08):
going to make you happy, right, are goingto fulfill you is, actually, is, is not
the path to the solution. It's the path tothe harm, right? It's the cause of
suffering. Is the idea that I'm not wholeand complete, I am lacking, and therefore
I need these externally, you know, theseexternal things to to fill this hole and
that direction. I can still I can I can beclear. I don't have to agree to everything
to make me happy and feel like I'mfulfilled and complete. Because when we
(22:30):
approach things with that attitude, itnever works, right? Because we never
actually believed in our own worthiness.We just, we just thought we, you know, the
next thing was going to be the thing thatfinally, you know, solves our kind of
that he's saying, but I can do it in agentler, more measured tone, which is,
fundamental problem. So the path oflessening is not about saying you can't
have a family and a job and a busy lifeand ambition and like all these things
(22:52):
which I have, and most people you knowhave, but it is saying that we can change
our experience of those things to reallydistill down our, you know, the way we
which is going to be more effective? Isubmit. I'm not an expert in parenting,
approach these different parts of ourlife. And instead of thinking, okay, more
and more, I need more strategies. I needmore time. I need more, you know, effort.
I need, you know that that's going to bethat's going to make me a better parent.
(23:14):
For example, you know, I need to say morethings to my son. I need to add more
but typically, I think in the long run, atleast, it's that's actually a more
instruction to his you know, really it's,it's lessening my belief and my attachment
and my my application of those variousfacets, which, you know, are often
unnecessary, and when things are moredistilled and really simplified, then I
parent, you know, and then it's often moreat ease. It's clearer. I'm less easily
effective strategy, and it feels better atthe time, and it yields better results in
(23:36):
frustrated in the process you know, or youapply it to your job, or whatever your
goals or you know, your kind of yourinterests are in your life, whatever you
apply it to, it's not just more pleasantto do it. It tends to yield a better
outcome when we can approach it that wayof lessening which, and another way of
the future. So that's a small case, andyou know, it wasn't flawless performance
thinking about it, is to be less attachedto the outcome of the activity, right? So
(23:58):
one thing I talk about in the compassionchapter, like, in terms of, like, let's
say you have a cause, like a socialjustice, you know, outcome, or, you know,
a political belief, or something that thatyou have, we all have them. It's like
yet, right? But anybody had been thereother than me and him, you would know,
there's one way to go about it, whichsays, I have to get this at all costs. The
people who are against me are dumb, right?I have to defeat them. They're the enemy.
(24:21):
And it's very easy, especially inpolitics, to slip into that, that mindset,
right? Or we can say, you know, this is acomplicated issue. I have a point of view.
but, but I felt, I felt I felt myself okaybeen here before, and I felt myself kind
I believe in my point of view, and I'mgoing to take steps to, you know, address
this injustice that I perceive to be inthe world. There's other people with
different points of view, you know, andI'm going to address and navigate these
(24:43):
steps compassionately. I'm going tolisten, I'm going to be understanding, I'm
of sticking closer to that center than Icertainly have in other cases,
going to be honest and have integritymyself, but I'm not going to, like, fall
into this, like I'm on this side of the,you know, line, you're on the other side.
And, you know, we're just going to fightit out, right? So it.
Yeah, we do this all the time in lots ofdifferent contexts. But I think it's not
(25:04):
again, not only is it is, I think, kind ofright, but it is. It is more effective,
you know, to to approach and less burnout,and, you know, less frustration and less
your pain in the process. So I do thinkthat that, and I say this in the book, how
we go about our our endeavors, whateverthey may be, is as important as whether or
not the Endeavor is successful, right, orwhatever the outcome of the Endeavor is.
(25:29):
It's like we are making our presence andhaving our impact as we go right, as much
as we are kind of at the end of whateverthis thing might be.
Robert Kuang (25:38):
Thank you for saying that about the art of lessening, because you
gave some examples in the book of whatthat could look like. And it was so
expansive, and it opened up myperspective, particularly you talk about
lessening with time, and you talk aboutthis relative to lots of other important,
you know, pillars in our life as well. Butone thing I did, because I moved from New
(25:58):
York City to Vancouver, Canada, last year,and we're about to move again. And there
was a lot of like, Oh, I'm gonna do thisafter. Like, I started doing like, this is
for after the move. This is for before themove. And I was doing a lot of that for
like, an entire year, because we knew wewere gonna be moving. And I really had to
examine and inquire with myself why I wasdoing that, what made, what were the
(26:21):
things I was, you know, I could not dealwith until after the move. And it was such
an arbitrary, interesting thing, becauseit was all up to me. It was a choice,
right? The way I saw it, yeah, and thingsstill happen, but it was just my framing
of it was just so interesting. Inparticular, you talk about things with
time and also particularly with work aswell. So obviously, don't quit the job.
(26:42):
But you know, one of the biggest thingspeople talk about that's a problem in
their life would probably be work ordissatisfaction around that. Can you share
a little bit about your perspective onthis practice as it relates to like,
career and money and things like that?
Billy Wynne (26:57):
Sure, sure. So, so I think it's, interesting, because with time, with
work and kind of material, you know,comfort and things, there is the reality,
right? I mean, you know, we have 24 hoursin a day. So, so again, this is not about
denying, right, authentic experience oflife, right? Which there are hours and
those types of things, you know, and thereare, there's a need for, you know, shelter
(27:19):
and clothing and food, and there may be,you know, perfectly healthy appetite for
comfort, you know, more travel to Europeand different things that people might
want to do. So this doesn't dismiss any ofthat. What it says is that how we, you
know, feel constrained by time or by thesematerial pressures or by our work is vast
majority of that is self imposed, right?So we can decide what our relationship
(27:41):
with time is. We can decide how we comeforth with our boss, right? We can decide
how we, you know, want to experience ourwork day, right? So, so the, you know,
it's also, maybe ironically, overlaps withthe chapter about love, where I talk about
response, freedom and responsibility,right? Freedom and responsibility. Right,
freedom and responsibility. We are tend tobelieve that, you know, our circumstances
(28:04):
define how we feel, right? We it's kindof, it's like a co dependence with our
circumstances. We we give upresponsibility for how we feel to the
things around us. It's like, well, I havea memo due tomorrow, and therefore I am
stressed and unhappy, right? And I can'tthink about other things. This is a
painful experience, and hopefully I'll getit done on time, right? So that's one way
(28:25):
to experience it, right? Another way islike, there's actually something
interesting here. You know, I took thisjob for a reason, some reason. Hopefully
it wasn't just for money, you know, maybe,maybe it was, but I had different options.
I chose this path of career or job. Youknow, I can take some pride in this.
There's a creative activity going on here.It might be something very mundane and
(28:47):
technical, but there's, there's somethingcoming out of my brain and onto the paper
here that I can have some fun with and acreativity with. We can choose how we're
going to approach that endeavor, eventhough there are certain constraints that
are undeniable around you know, that thatdo set the context. We can choose our
relationship with those. Those contextualfactors take up a path of peace and
(29:09):
creativity and ease. You know, even invery kind of mundane circumstances,
Robert Kuang (29:13):
Yeah, chop wood, carry water, kind of ease, yeah, sometimes many
people yearn for that kind of simplicity.Isn't that funny? In modern society, we've
advanced so much and some people are like,I just want to lie down.
Billy Wynne (29:28):
Yeah, exactly.
Robert Kuang (29:29):
We have a couple minutes left. And I love to throw two words slash
concept to you, just to see yourperspective, mostly because I'll share a
little bit. You know, I think probably theconcept of belonging and being at home and
freedom are two things that have probablydriven my spiritual search or yearning,
probably my entire life without reallyeven being what to name it at first. Yeah,
(29:54):
and I think a lot of the Buddhist path andpeople who are interested in mindfulness
and taking care.
Or their actions and themselves this way,probably think about belonging and and
freedom and maybe have some struggle withthat. So I'm just curious how you relate
to these two ideas within the Buddhistpath, if you will.
Billy Wynne (30:12):
Sure, sure. Well, first, Sabine Selassie wrote a book called You
Belong. And I do, I do reference it in mybook. It's a really beautiful book, and
it's really centered around this core ideaof belonging. My theme, and I believe,
consistent with hers, if I may say so youknow, is that if we can find that place,
or we can begin to cultivate that placewhere we are whole and complete from the
(30:35):
very beginning, we're not actuallylacking. We are not needing more things
externally to make us, you know, whole andcomplete, then we belong. Right? Wherever
we go, we are at home because we arealready at center, at peace within our own
selves, right, with a deep understandingof kind of where we came from and where
we're going. That is another way of beingin community. It's a way of being in our
(30:59):
space. It's a way of inhabiting our spacethat says that, you know, I have things to
do, I have relationships I need to tendto, but my happiness is not contingent on
the outcome of those things, right? Myhappiness starts from from the inside and
moves outward like this, the belonging,and then the other piece you mentioned
was, oh, freedom, freedom. Thank you.Yeah. So, yeah. So it's really kind of two
(31:23):
sides to the same coin, right? Because,you know, in that space, and I this is
part of the my version of the mettameditation that I offer in the book, and
it's all really how I think about the cruxof my my practice these days is, you know,
feeling free to come forth and greet thenext moment with an open heart, right? I
mean that that is, that is at the heart ofour day to day activities, is we? Yes,
(31:46):
there are contacts, yes, you know, we kindof, we have our authentic life experience,
and sort of those around us. And yes, ourfeet are on the ground. And, you know,
there are the materiality of our authenticlife experience. And at the same time
within that, we are free, you know, weare, we are able to greet the next moment
with an open heart, if we choose to meetit that way, right, whatever it may be.
(32:10):
And it can be very sad and painful, it canbe very frustrating and difficult, or, you
know, it can be very joyful, and, youknow, blissful and and you know, and more
positive side of life. And we are we, youknow, are free to choose how we advance
into that next moment in whatever form itpresents itself to us. And that's really
gets to the true meaning of of happiness.If we can recognize and embody and embrace
(32:35):
that freedom that we have, then it's allgravy. You know, it's all
even this, even in sad moments and like, Imean, like, really sad loss of a loved
one, you know? I mean the pain and thesadness is very real. And at the same
time, there can be this beauty, right?There's care, there's love, there is there
is a depth there that is a very, verymagical and miraculous part of being a
(32:59):
human being, right? And so even as we'recrying and desperate, you know that's
there too. And you know we are free toaccess that does not go away, whatever our
circumstances may be. We are free toaccess that if we cultivate our openness
to it.
Robert Kuang (33:12):
Yeah, and thank you for mentioning the power of choice. I always
like to remind people a lot of this isexploring the power of our choices,
because sometimes people think like you'rejust a follower, right of all whatever?
Yeah, and once again, it's just a reminderof this is looking at what we choose in
any given moment. So I always appreciate agood reminder of that, Billy, for anyone
(33:32):
who wants to find you or connect with you.Where can they do that?
Billy Wynne (33:36):
Yes, they can go to my website, Billywynne.com and they can also
order my book from whatever platformthey'd like that way. And so I'm also on
social, and you can find all that throughmy website.
Robert Kuang (33:49):
Perfect, yeah, and I'll link it as well. So yeah, thank you for your
time today, and thank you for having mejust being part of the ride with the
technical hiccups.
Billy Wynne (33:58):
Oh no, thank you for your patience as well. I'm glad we made it
work. Great to be with you.
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