June 21, 2024 • 48 mins
Controlled environment agriculture (CEA) is a broad term for any type of farming that takes place in a controlled environment, indoors and shielded from the elements. This can be done in a variety of settings, including greenhouses, warehouses, including repurposed shipping containers.
Jim Schroeder, principal owner of Alta-CEA, answers our questions about shipping container vertical farming and provides in-depth information about how CEA works and the necessity of training in order to effectively produce crops.
Contact Information:
Alta CEA Website: https://alta-cea.com/
Jim Schroeder : jim@alta-cea.com
Read more about Innovations in Vertical Farming at our Innovations Blog
Please subscribe to our Podcast and send us your comments at nealr@mfgpa.org
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
With us today is Jim Schroeder.
He is the Principal Owner of Alta CEA.
And welcome to the program.
Jim, how are you doing today?
I'm doing really well.
Thank you very much for inviting me.
And this is new to me, but I reallydo appreciate the opportunity.
Well, I got to tell you,you have something that's really
(00:24):
exciting, and I think it's somethingthat has much farther, farther reaches.
And I think you're going to bethe person to be able to clarify things
and really help people givea really in-depth understanding
of shipping container, vertical farming.
So the nomenclature calledCEA is relatively new.
What's been around for many, many years isthis terminology called vertical farming.
(00:48):
And that's what started an awful lotof the interest in
controlled environment agriculture.
And that's what CEA is.
It's the The acronym CEA isControlled Environment Agriculture,
which is really a philosophyof taking Mother Nature and putting her
(01:11):
on the inside versus the outside.
So when you take Mother Nature and youput her on the inside, you have to really
think about what Mother Naturehas been and what she still continues
to do on a daily basis on the outside.
So that's what CEA is,Controlled Environment Agriculture.
The thing that I was most interestedin was the idea of taking a shipping
(01:33):
container and basically making itinto something that could actually
be, if you will, a completelyself-contained, growing environment.
That opens up all kinds of avenues that ifit's in an area that they don't have the
proper environmental conditions or theydon't have power or something like that.
So this could potentiallybe a solution for world hunger.
(01:56):
Tell us a little bit more about that,about where this drives where the idea
is of taking a shipping containerto turn it into a growing environment.
Well, let's take a step back.
So originally, CEA was just strictlygreenhouse, all within the same context
of controlled environment agriculture.
(02:17):
You take a greenhouse and you're basicallydoing the same thing.
You're putting everythingon the inside, a glass structure
or a plastic structure on the outside.
You're controllingthe air, you're controlling
by supplementing the light in there.
Now, what you want to think aboutis, how are you going to
control that whole atmosphere?
(02:38):
So you can do what they call horizontalplane growing, which is greenhouses, or
you really want to reduce your footprint,now you can look at it vertically.
So you take that same concept ofa greenhouse that's all done on a large
footprint on a horizontal, and you put itinto a more confined area vertically.
(03:03):
Now you've got the ability to takethe inside concept and you can put it
into a singular structure that are builtto suit, or you can take some of the older
buildings in that and refurbish them,remodel them, and repurpose
them into vertical farming.
(03:24):
And there's been a lot of conversationsas to how to do it and what's best
and how to control that environment.
Now, you throw some other technology in,and it's called aquaplonix.
Aquaplonix is taking the fish partof agriculture, and you use the nutrients
(03:44):
of the fish, and you tie that in togetherwith controlled environment agriculture
as a nutrient source.
So that's just another avenueof the growing systems net in there.
Originally, when I got involved in it,which is about 15 years ago, it was all
based on trying to repurpose buildingsor build new structure.
(04:09):
And there's been greenhouses aroundfor years and years and years.
Actually, there's been a lotof vertical farming that has been
around for many years, too.
The difference being withthe different types of technology
that are utilized to grow the product.
And some of these, we just use somebasic terminology technology, deep water
(04:31):
culture, which is growing the plantsin water with the floating rafts.
And then there's ebb and flow, which meansthat you're just flooding the roots,
and then that nutrient just leaves.
And then there's other thingslike aeroponics, where all you're doing
is using a mist system, and most of thatis done on vertical walls and that.
(04:53):
So there's lots of different typesof technology that's available.
Part of the problem with developing a CEAin large centers in that, and I'm talking
about urban centers in that, is ittakes a fairly significant footprint.
And you look at that and you say, okay, soyou've got a very specific clientele for
(05:16):
that, and it's a 99 % of it's commercial.
So you're growing lettucefor restaurants and any other food source
that you want to put intothe retail side of the business.
One One of the problems that came up is,how do you now take
and just service the small systems,the small communities,
(05:39):
the person that wants to puttheir own system in that,
their growing system in that in closeproximity to their workplace,
or somebody that wants to bean entrepreneur and have a small growing
system in that in their backyardin that for commercialization.
(06:00):
And this is what really spawnedthe idea of container farming.
So there was an awful lotof businesses that have revolved
around containers and all kinds of them.
There have been breweriesand microbreweries, and they're
building houses out of these things.
So somebody with some very, verygood entrepreneurial engineering said,
(06:24):
Why don't we look at trying to put somegrow systems in there and reduce footprint
down to something that you can modulizeinto a grow system in that that you
can put in close proximity to a market.
And that's really whatcontainer growing is all about,
(06:44):
is being able to utilize a smallerfootprint, still utilize the vertical
farming system within it,control the air and the light,
the humidity, temperature,and all of that in a smaller area.
And that's what containerfarming is all about.
You can still grow lettucesand tomatoes and vine crops
(07:06):
and that all within a confined area.
And yes, it's a very confinedworkspace, but there is economics to it.
And The ROIs are totallybased on what does that end user
want to be able to grow and market.
And in some cases, they justwant to be able to consume it themselves.
That's amazing that there's that muchinvolved with it.
(07:29):
I know we We earlier discussed about,you don't just take a container and start
putting some lights and some soil andsome hydroponics, and it'll all work fine
because it doesn't work like that.
Maybe you could touch base on,maybe go back to that conversation,
tell a little bit more about howit's not as simple as just putting lights
and water and plants inside of something,and it'll all work like Mother Nature.
(07:51):
That's wishful thinking.
I've wish for that many,many, many, many, many times.
What people really do haveto understand is that anything to
do with CEA, and I don't care if it'scontainer farming or if it's aeroponics
or aquaponics, this is a science.
This is not just mama going out or daddygoing out and throwing some seeds
(08:14):
into the ground in a gardenand hoping that it's going to grow.
The specifics that you need to look atwhen you're doing container farming,
and container farming has got a smallfootprint, but it's also got a small area
to So everything that's in that containeris part of this controlled environment.
(08:36):
So light, temperature, air flow, the typeof substrate that you're using, if you're
using substrate, even the type of seed.
And there are an awful lot of people thatdon't understand that the seed that you
throw in your garden doesn't necessarilygrow very well in the container
(08:58):
or any of the CEA environment.
And then when you're buying seedfrom McKinsey Seed, I got to be careful
with that because I don'tknow where everybody's talking.
But when you go to your local storeand you buy seed, you got to be very,
very careful that this productis actually designed to grow
in a hydroponic atmosphere.
(09:21):
So you're better to do a lotof research on your seed availability
and what you're looking at.
The other thing that you have to be,again, very, What I'm very cognizant
of is the maturity levelthat you want to grow to.
So if you take this thing called verticalfarming, and you've got 12 inches
(09:42):
of bed space from your substrateto your light, if that's even got 16
inches, what are you going to grow in it?
If you're going to choose your plantthat's going to have a two foot, three
foot canopy, you're going to be very,very, very upset with the How it grows.
The other thing is on your cycle times.
(10:03):
So your environment that you're growingin, the temperature of your water,
everything that has to do with growingin an indoor environment is got to be
something that's based on a lotof science, a lot of research,
and you've got to be ableto do a lot of record keeping.
There are plant varieties.
And the last time that I was talkingto the people at Johnny Seed,
(10:27):
there's about 1100 There aredifferent varieties of lettuce.
And lettuce is a very,very broad, broad term.
And not all of these lettucesin that grow well in the garden,
and they don't grow well incontrolled environment applications.
So you really have to know exactlywhat you want to do with that.
(10:50):
And the other thing that you gotto remember is that the nutrient that you
have to give the plant, like MotherNature, is not just a common nutrient.
It's not like going to, again, your localhardware store and buying a garden-type
nutrient that is very, very broadbandded.
That doesn't necessarilywork in a controlled environment.
(11:14):
Because the thing called Participant, youdevelop your nutrient, and the last thing
you want is nutrient dropoutto end up within the bottom of your tank,
your storage tanks, and that over there.
You have to have theproduct that totally soluble.
And each one of the typesof the plants that you want to grow
(11:35):
has its own requirements.
So just because you've got your lettuceand tomatoes growing side by side in a
garden doesn't necessarily I really mean.
And a lot of people say, Gee,my lettuce grew really well, but I didn't
get anything from tomatoes this year.
Well, it's because theyhave a different nutrient base.
So this is a science, and you just don'tbuy a container farm and And then
(12:00):
say, Okay, tomorrow, I'm nowgoing to be a horticulturist.
It really does come down toknowing exactly what you have.
I use the analogy quite often with people.
It's like going down toyour friendly neighborhood truck store.
You're going to be an 18-wheeler andsomebody sells you a truck and throws you
the key and says, now you is one.
(12:20):
And that's exactly the way that it works.
You really do have to know whatyou're getting into when you're talking
about container farming.
They are exceptional in whattheir capabilities are.
They can grow tremendous volumesof very, very high
nutrient content product in there.
(12:42):
But you have to understand this wholething called controlled environment.
That's very informative because I know,again, in doing the research for this
podcast, just looking out there, it'slike I've seen, Oh, we sell this whole
thing, but there's no discussion as toall the things you're talking about.
I think a lot of people get this stuff.
Like you said, it's like going downto the truck dealership and
(13:04):
they'll throw you the keys,maybe an owner's manual, and that's it.
I know one of the things we wantto talk about is the need for training,
because these are not somethingthat you just pick up online, ship it
out to your place, and juston a weekend, put it all together.
Walk us through that a little bit as wellas what's involved in actually
(13:29):
getting everything, getting one started.
At Alta CEA, we've got horticultural PhDs.
These people are scientistsin every aspect of
controlled environment agriculture.
Right from how does a personselect the seed, what substrate, then how
(13:55):
you germinate plants and your cycling.
So let's just take It's like a grow bed.
And you've got a vertical farm systemyou can have anywhere up to five
grow beds on both sides of it.
The thing that you want to do,if you're going to do this thing
commercially, you've got togrow these things in continuous cycles.
You don't want to plant everything rightat the very start and get them all to
(14:21):
mature, and then you harvest everything,and then you have got a whole bunch of
beds over there that are doing absolutelynothing until the next germination phase.
So this is a And you have to havehorticulturists in that that really
do understand the science of germination,the science of transplanting, the science
of growing to a maturity level.
(14:42):
Now, one of the problemsthat people really do need to address
is the client, the end user.
What are you doing with that product?
Whether you're growing microgreensor you're growing mature plant,
that person that's going tobuy your product, you've got to be able
to find out exactly what that marketIt is just based on the maturity.
(15:02):
And that maturity level can be,if you take a romaine, is a good example.
You can take standard romaine that you seein a romaine package in a retail store is
totally different than in the bulk aisle.
And the difference in the maturityis based on days and cycle time.
So this is whata horticulturist will teach you.
(15:24):
The other thing that isthe nutrient value.
The nutrient depletion.
As your plants are growingand you're using drip irrigation,
in most cases it's using drip irrigationor deepwater culture, the floating rafts,
the plants are takingup the nutrient that they want.
(15:46):
So now you've got this return cycle of anutrient in water coming back to a tank.
The whole replenishmentof that is, again, it's based
on a science, and it's called EC.
It's electrical conductivity.
It tells you what your nutrient level is.
But I'll give you a good example.
Again, if you're taking lettuce and you'regrowing it in the same container system,
(16:12):
lettuce will uptake a specific nutrientfor that, where if you're taking
a herb like a basil, for instance,it takes up an awful lot more.
And you have to be ableto identify as it's growing
that the nutrient levels are always totheir maximum fulfillment of the plant.
And you have to look at the planton a daily basis to see if there's
(16:35):
any difference in the leaf structure,specifically on the outside of that leaf.
This takes training.
And if people understand that you can'tlearn this in one growth cycle,
a learning cycle based on numerousgrowth cycles and problem solving.
If it was just a matter ofgoing in there and turning this switch
(16:57):
on and everything is goingto start to grow, that's not reality.
So we look at it from atotally different perspective.
Yes, we would love to be ableto sell you this container, but we also
want to make very, very surethat you understand that the success
of your business is based on training.
(17:17):
Our systems, when we market a system,it has the cameras in it.
It has the WiFi systems in it.
Our PhDs are readily availableafter the training to discuss all of
the problem solving issues in that.
And a lot of the problem solving issuesare absolutely because of the lack
(17:41):
of training from the operator.
And that is airflow, temperature,nutrient values, all of these things
are all part of the science of boning it.
It sounds like this thingis a big mystery, but it's not.
It really has to do with takingthe curriculum of a good training program
and then going backover and over and over and having
(18:03):
that reference material there all the timeand having the availability of somebody
that is a horticultural scienceas your reference point.
I think that's important to mentionbecause in our earlier discussion,
you were saying there are nota lot of training places.
It's not just the equipment, but it's alsothat you can actually know how to be able
(18:23):
to take care of everything.
Well, there's also technology within thecontainer that people have to I
really understand, and that is,normally you'll have somewhere between 12
to 18 inches of space between yoursubstrate where your plant is growing and
the light, and it's called to the Canopy.
(18:46):
So that time frame that that plantis growing, there are time frames
in there that you really haveto be very cognizant of the science.
You have to adapt and you have be ableto adjust your nutrient value
based on the maturity of that plant.
The other thing that you have to dois you also have to understand
(19:09):
the whole airflow aspect of it.
You can't have a windblowing there 100 miles an hour,
but you have to have a vortex.
And if you got this really long,narrow, square unit and you're trying
to create a vortex, you have to be ableto control that vortex in there.
No different than Mother Nature.
(19:30):
So you're trying to be Mother Natureon the inside, so you really
have to understand your environment.
In our systems in that over there, wehave got the HVAC systems in place that
control the temperature, but you're alsotrying to control the humidity, and your
humidity is going to change based on thatparticular plant and the plant maturity.
(19:54):
So you're dealing with, again, the scienceof that plant and Mother Nature.
And if you're trying If you do thegermination based on one humidity level
and you've got at the other endof your cycle, you've got the maturity
of that, this is all part of theunderstanding of how that thing grows.
And to be successful at it,you have to understand the science of it.
(20:17):
If you're talking about some ofthese everbearing type things
like strawberries not over there,you have that exact same thing.
People need to understand thatif you're growing strawberries
on a container, there's no bees in there.
So you have to be Mother Nature.
So you have to be ableto understand how to pollinate.
(20:38):
And very successful containerof farms because they have somebody
that's got a bee bonnet onand she's going around or he's going
around there actually being a bee.
You have to know what your market isand what you're going to do with it,
and the type of substratethat you're going to grow in there.
And that requires training,and it requires resources to be able
(21:01):
to make sure that you're alwayskeeping those plant cycles in place.
So we have got people that have beengrowing strawberries and have the same
plant cycles for three years, four years.
But what happens is that when the plantstarts to drop off in performance,
(21:21):
you actually have to replace it.
That means that you have tohave plants ready to change in there.
So you always have that constant changein that in there when you're having
the ever-bearing type product in there.
But this requires resourcesof knowledge and training and
really heavy record keeping.
(21:43):
So you have to be able to bethere on a daily basis.
You have to understand exactlywhat's going on, and you have to have
the monitoring system in thatin order to be successful.
Just walk us through a little bit ofsome of the technology that came together
so that these actually are there now.
In most containers, farming overthere, you have racking
(22:07):
that is your grow bed system.
The difference in the typesof grow bed systems in there, Again,
you can go with substrate systems,you can go with tubular systems,
you can also use the deepwater culture,which is the floating raft in there.
That's the base of yourgrowing system in there.
(22:28):
Those all require a Theyhave nutrient flow.
They have water, nutrient injectionsystems that are directed either directly
on the plant themselves or withinthe substrate of that plant.
So you've got these things called growbeds, and they're sitting on a rack.
Above When you're in that,you've got LED lights.
And LED lights are very, very specific.
(22:50):
The LED lights are based on a spectrum.
And Mother Nature, when you go outsidein a night, sun, shiny day,
has got every part of that spectrum.
When you're in an enclosedenvironment, you don't need all that.
You don't need the realhigh intense white light.
(23:10):
What you do need isa little bit of white light.
You need lots of red light.
You need lots of blue light.
And under most circumstances,you really don't even need an awful lot
of the white light, but you needsome white, blue, red, and a little bit
of yellow and a little bit of green.
That's the spectrum.
So you're trying to duplicate whatMother Nature is all about.
(23:32):
So that done in an LED system.
Now, pretty well everythingin any of the new houses now, you've got
an LED that is your standard replacementfor fluorescent or incandescent.
And And that's either a soft whiteor a daytime white.
That's the same technology, andit's all based on what they call a PFD.
(23:56):
It's the type of light.
So when somebody comes to usand they say they want to grow
leafy greens and herbs, andto some degree, some of the vine crop.
That's an LED light,that very specific spectrum.
Now, if you wanted to have a containerthat was growing cannabis,
(24:17):
that's a totally different spectrum.
So if you want leafy productover there, that's one spectrum.
If you want flowering productand you want to grow nothing
but flowering potted plants and stufflike that, that's a different spectrum.
You can get LEDs that are tunableto the different spectrums, but a lot
(24:37):
of that has to do with daylightand your timing of this thing.
So the LED lights in that arealways a on a cycle.
And normally, it's, I will say,an average of 12 to 14 hours.
But there are some plantsthat require the lights to be on
with an intensity of 16 hours.
But plants need to sleep, so they needto be dark, and they need to be very dark
(25:02):
if it's all possible during that time.
And the different aspiration rates of howthe full sense of this works is based
on that light absorption add in there.
Some of the other technologyin there, you have to have the HVAC,
which is the temperature control.
(25:26):
So we always try to make sure thatour mean average temperature temperature
is 70 degrees F, 20 degrees C.
That's pretty tough to do if you're ina Canadian climate where it's minus 40.
So you have to have the whole HVAC system.
So you have to have the furnace in therethat is the supplemental for the heat.
(25:52):
But in the summertime, when it'splus 30 outside or 90 degrees
outside, now you have to get ridof that So you have to have
that mean average temperature in there.
So that whole area of air conditioningthrough the summer months
and that over there has got to be there.
The other thing that we do is yougot to create this vortex of air.
(26:15):
And the air movement is very,very important, not just on the outside
of your growing system, buton the inside and even down to
what they call the crown of your plant.
And the reason why you have to havea lot of air flow in there
is to reduce the amount of mold.
(26:36):
And white mold is part of thecritical thing that you have to control.
And you do that by having not dryair, but air movement.
You try to keep a relative humidity levelof about 40 %, about the same
as what you would do in an office,not necessarily in a house.
So you do that by having dehumidifiers.
(26:59):
And we put those dehumidifiers onthe ceiling where you get your maximum
temperature, and we take that waterand we take that dehumidifier
and we pull the water out.
So that our air is alwaysmoving on that cyclone and
moving that dryer air from the topto the bottom and all the way down to
(27:21):
the floor level and that over there.
And that is based on how you angleyour fan systems in that on the grow bed.
But again, it's part of a science.
So You have to be very, very carefulwith how you move your air.
You have to be very careful with theamount of humidity and your nutrients.
So a lot of this stuffis all based on the monitoring system.
(27:41):
So you're always constantlymonitoring exactly that grow
environment, because what you're doingis you're maximizing the growth rate
and the productivity that you've gotin that very small container space.
A lot of it has to do with,again, this thing called food safety.
So you don't want mold,you don't want mildew.
(28:05):
You want to make sure thatall of these things are controlled.
And it's very, very important, again,from a training standpoint of view,
how do you control How do you control it?
And how do youdo all of the proper environment controls
in order to be able to make that happen?
I want to touch base on something becauseone of the things I noticed was that it's
(28:28):
also mentioned on the on your websiteabout that it is an off-the-grid system.
How is solar power utilizedin these shipping containers?
And what role does it playin making it a self-sufficient system?
Okay, so let's go back.
There's two ways to run your power.
(28:50):
So if you're in a parking lotand buy a hotel, you don't need
anything other than the plug in power.
Normally, it's a standard 110, 120 volts.
What we do is that we put everythingon the outside in the control box,
that over there, and you plug itin with a great big long extension
(29:12):
cord, and you're good to go.
Now, if you're in an area that is notnearly as accessible, or if you want to
power the container by itself,there's different methodologies.
So if you're If you're going to use solarpower, you can either use what they call
(29:34):
a ground array, which is justyour solar panels net are constructed
and set at angles net on a rack system.
You can also place it on the topof your container if you want to do that.
So what we do is that we design thesolar array for the power requirement.
(29:56):
But again, you have to remember thatif you're doing solar by itself, now
you have to have battery storagebecause solar doesn't work with a darn.
I just about said the otherword, but with a darn at night time.
So you have to have storage in there.
So you have to have that continuous power.
So if you're totally off-grid,it requires a lot more technology.
(30:21):
But the cost savings of that is therethat, of course, you're not having to
pay for your typical grid power.
But your investment for that It is longterm, and it requires your standard
solar panel array plus storagein order to be able to give you power
(30:43):
continually, 24 hours a day.
The other side of that is that if solaris not advantageous, say, in Northern
Canada, now you have to lookat different methodologies
of powering that over there.
So we also have as options withinour system, power generator systems
(31:06):
that are either natural gas, propane ordiesel-powered in that in order to give
you the 24-hour power system in there.
When it comes to the generator systems netover there, it's exactly the same thing.
The one thing that you cannot do with anya controlled environment is lose power.
So you have to havebackup power of some sort.
(31:29):
Yes, we be without powerfor anywhere up to 24 to 48 hours
over there, but you will startto see issues because you can't
get enough airflow in that in there.
So having a standby generator is partof the planning cycle, and it's also part
of the training cycle as to exactlyhow this thing all gets done.
(31:50):
But let's talk a little about howpeople really think this thing through.
And if you look at the placementof this container and Utilizing what
Mother Nature does on the outside.
These are things that youhave to be very cognizant of.
Where is your outside air flow?
The thing that you want to dois you want to be able to heat sink
(32:11):
this unit to its best ability.
So does that mean that you're placing itmore north and south and east and west?
It's all based on proximityand where you're going to put it,
where's your shade and all of that.
So this takes some thought process.
And again, discussing it withour application people, our horticultural
(32:33):
engineers and our PhDs, and workinga layout and saying, Okay, this
is my backyard or this is my location.
What's best?
Then you start talking about power and airflow and water and all of these things.
And also, what are you goingto do with your nutrient water?
(32:54):
In a lot of case, you just can'tthrow that out on a parking lot.
It's got to go into a drain system.
So all of this is part of the discussionand part of the planning process that we
offer when we're trying to set somebodyup with a container system in there.
The planning process isvery, very important.
So we go through a checklist,and it's on our website
(33:15):
as to exactly what that all means.
And we ask peopleto go onto the website, do
the actual product evaluation on there.
That gives us a really good basisfor what we're going to be able
to recommend in the whole aspectof what is that container going to be and
where it's going to be located on there.
(33:36):
So we like to make sure that we getas much information in there in order
to be able to apply the science that weknow that it's going to take in order to
be able to have a very functional system.
What about scalability options?
Is this something that being modular,I would imagine it can be scaled, but
that's going to also change some dynamicsin the overall picture, I would imagine.
(33:59):
Okay.
Okay, so when we're talkingabout scalability, there's things that
you really have to look at, scalability.
So you've got this plant source.
So you have to look at what are yougoing to do after harvest?
You've got this 40-foot container whereyou're going to take your product out.
It's going to be in plastic bags.
(34:21):
You're going to take itsomeplace, and you have to always
be very cognizant of food safety.
So you're harvesting this product,and now it's got to go into a cooler
of some sort in close proximityto where you're harvesting.
What people really have to read,again, this is a science.
So our horticultors are goingto ask the end customer,
(34:44):
you're going to harvest this product,and what are you going to put it into?
You're going to put it into a basket?
Okay, you're goingto put it into a basket.
Now, just remember,when you put it into the basket,
now you've got a product temperaturethat's at 70 degrees C, and you're going
to You have it in plastic bags, and nowyou're going to put it into a cooler.
Now you're going to end up with a lotof humidity problems in there.
(35:06):
So you have to cool this product down.
As soon as you talk about scalability,now you have to add some other components
into this scalability.
So you can have a lot of gross systems,but now you have to have other things
involved with that scalability,and that's coolers.
So as soon as you talk about any volumeother than what you would normally
(35:31):
produce in a 40-foot container, andif you did these things in multiples, and
we've got designs that are called the H.
So you get two on the outsideand one in the middle, and now you've got
this H factor, and that's three.
You can Go up verticallyand add ones on the top.
Same all the time.
As soon as you do that,the other problems that come into it,
(35:53):
what do you do with your harvestand how do you handle your harvest?
And what's the safety factorsin that that you need?
The last thing that you want to dois get involved with all the other,
the bad things that you hear about,like lysteria and samonella
and botulism and all the rest of it.
And that's all the human sideof how you're handling your product.
(36:14):
So our So again, our staff are goingto train you how to handle the product.
And it's just some of the basicsof this personal protection.
You're using gloves and you're usingsmocks and hair nets and all the rest
of that stuff because you're tryingto now market that product
(36:36):
into the human food chain.
You have to be very, very cognizant.
So the scalability is there.
And you can just continuallyadd multiples of that.
But the complexity of that nowcomes back to, what are you
(36:57):
going to do to handle it?
You can't have that product justgo into your garage and sitting on
the garage floor over there and tryto figure out how you're going to market
that product into a farmer's marketbecause it doesn't work that way anymore.
What challenges did youface getting to this point?
Was it technology or was it just...
(37:18):
It seems like there's a lot ofmoving gears here, and I could see where
that would cause a lot of challenges.
Maybe just touch base on some of those.
Actually, it's not.
Actually, the It's the planning process,and it's the whole discovery,
and we call it the discovery process.
So we have people that will...
(37:42):
They just make the inquiryand they say, Okay, I want
to get into the CEA business.
And again, whether it's container orwhether it's a full-blown construction,
there's a start point of the discussion.
And then what we say,In order for us to give you
a good representation of the technology,we would like you to go on our website
(38:04):
and fill in the basic questionnaire.
And the basic questionnaire gives usan idea of what you're thinking, where
your thinking, where's your mindset?
Then we can come up withthe recommendation
as to even the container size.
The average container iswhat they call a 40-foot high cube.
(38:25):
But we can alsosupply that in a 20-foot container.
The value of the 20-footcontainer, it's not the same.
You still have to have basicallythe same components in it,
so you don't have the same ratio.
So your 40-foot containeris your best ratio for that.
But the challenge is always the same.
(38:48):
You have to be ableto understand that Mother Nature
is on the inside, not on the outside.
So you have to have allthat science in there.
And as much as I hate to say it,it's not rocket science.
You really do have to understandthe science of horticulture
and the science of Mother Nature.
Now you put it all together and you canput it into a container, you can put it
(39:10):
into a building, you can put it intomany different types of applications.
I'm not just talking about the typicalnutrient injection systems
and deep water culture.
You can go to other systems.
When you look at all ofthe different applications of what
it all takes, we've already done it.
We We've got the light technology,we've got the air technology,
(39:33):
the humidity controls.
All of those things areall part of what we do.
What we just need to understand is thatwhat do you want to do as a business?
What do you want to do?
I have a customer right nowthat wants to grow strawberries
for their strawberry winery.
They want a very, very specificvariety, and they want
a very specific ratio of harvest.
(39:54):
So they need from us what we're goingto be able to provide them from a
technology side because they already havea large greenhouse where it's growing.
They want to be able to havethe containers now so they can
grow strawberries in the wintertime.
What we're doing is we're providing themwith the information that they need
(40:15):
in order to have those same peoplethat are working in the summertime
now work in the wintertime onlywithin the controlled environment.
The challenge for us is to make surethat they understand that being in a
greenhouse is not any anywhere similar onthe technology to being in a controlled
environment system within a container.
(40:36):
The challenge for our horticulturistis not the technology of the container.
It's the technology thatwe need to support the culture.
And therein lies some of the biggestproblems is that when you look at some of
the cultures in Africa, for instance,they're more on the protein side of it.
(40:58):
So we've got to to be able to understandexactly what that application is.
So we change the type of growing systemin there, and we add drip systems
that are more like we callthe technologies called Dutch Bucket.
And they're still within that sameconfined of the container farm
(41:20):
in there because you needeverything else that's in there.
But it's a different type of technologythat we need to support their culture.
And we're doing that right now in Kenya.
We're doing it right nowin some of the areas of Africa.
They want to have the containersas part of their disaster relief program.
They know that the hurricanesare coming through no matter what.
(41:41):
So how do we make that work?
Can we do that with different typesof support systems for power?
Power off-grid for themis very, very important.
So that's where the solar comes in,and that's where even some of the
cogen generation system generator systemsin that, they need to have that in there.
(42:03):
So when we go into a very specificmarket or, I guess, a community
sector, we go back to this very,very basic fundamentals.
What is it that you want to grow?
What is it and where is itthat you're going to grow?
What are your parameters?
Temperature?
What's the proximity to potable water?
(42:25):
All of these things are partof the discovery that we supply
when we're going in to make sure that wecan actually supply them with a product.
The 40-foot container, welook at it as it's got to be turnkey
for all of those things.
And as long as that we can get itto a shipping port, those 40-foot
(42:45):
containers are on ships all the time.
Now you just have to figure out exactlyhow you're going to work the proximity.
What we do offer the people,even in Africa, is come to
our training facility right here inthe bright lights of Annaway, Alberta.
And we're going to train your peoplewhile we're building your container.
(43:07):
And when it gets to-Oh, that's cool.
When it gets to being dumpedoff in your location, we're just going
to ship your people back by airplane,and they're going to be ready
to turn and switch on and get going.
What we're also providing is actualtraining centers so that when we go into
(43:28):
a continent like Africa, you have to havethe ability to be able to take our people
and put them with their people.
So we can either do thathere at our training center
or we can go over there and do that.
Very, very important that wehave that ability to be able to
do that and communicate after the fact.
(43:49):
So we talked briefly about monitoringsystems, being able to have our people
readily available in that througheither Zoom or one of the WiFi systems
and that over there to be able to chatwith our people and help solve problems.
And this is all partof the training program.
(44:11):
So as much as that I, and I think youunderstand that I am so fixated on
the training aspect of it because I thinkit's an absolute necessity and it doesn't
make any difference what it is.That is amazing.
It just keeps expanding, and there'sanother opportunity, another opportunity.
(44:32):
It seems like this is really somethingthat is growing and can solve a lot
of different needsin a lot of different areas.
And like you said, a lot of it comes backto the training and the planning
is what it really comes down to.
We've got the technology down,but we need to better understand
what the end user needs and what arethe factors that we need to put into it
(44:53):
so that we can build the plan around it.
We want people to interact with ususing our website to give us the initial
information, the feedback, justby filling in the documentation
over there, that's the start point.
Then what we need to understand isour own cycle time to build these things.
(45:15):
It's not like a Ford or a Chevy pickupthat is just sitting in there
waiting to get done because the end userhas to tell us exactly what they want
because we have to be able to change it.
Yes, the seat can is there, the doorwaysare there, but everything else
on the inside has got to be...
I don't like using the wordcustomized, but it is close to that.
(45:39):
So there's a lot of aspectsto container farming, and I always maybe
look too much to the negativityof what can happen versus the positive.
But if people really do understand there,it's a very, very, very positive aspects
(46:00):
of utilizing container farmsand add in there for
many different growth cycles in there.
I'm going to give youthe last two minutes.
If you want to summarize anythingor if we didn't cover,
you get the last two minutes.
If we can sit down and we can talk aboutthe needs and the requirements of the end
(46:21):
user, we have the solutions for that.
And we can provide the different CEAtechnology, the different
water purification system technology.
It's all part of what we do,and it's not just a one-off.
The container by itselfis a very, very good application.
(46:41):
But if you don't have the other partsof that application over there,
it's not part of a success story.
So at Elta CEA, we have the abilityto provide most of those solutions.
And if there was anythingthat I really like to focus on right
now, It's that small community.
(47:02):
It's the small communitywithin a community having the application
of a container to be ableto supply the small community.
And we focus an awful lot on First Nationsand the tribes of North America
to be able to supply some ofthat food application in there.
(47:23):
So it's all within the application.
It all starts with the discussionas to what is it that you want to do?
And let's see if we can fit itinto an actual plan that can come up with
a solution that's based on food security,food sovereignty, and food safety.
(47:45):
That's fantastic.
Hey, before I forget, howcan somebody get in touch with you?
We've talked about the website.
What's your website address?
I don't even think youdo it, but it's www.
Elta-cea.Ca.
Ca.Com.
Excellent.
Well, I'll tell you what,we'll put a link in the show notes.
I can't tell you this has beena really in-depth conversation
(48:08):
and a really interesting one.
I would like to have youcome back at a later time just
to do some follow-up questions and justsee new projects that you're working on,
because I think this is very interesting,and I think you've shed a lot of light.
I really appreciate havingthe opportunity, too.
I like talking about...
Thank you very, very much, and lookforward to the interaction down the road.
(48:31):
Sounds great.Thanks, Jim.
Have a good afternoon.You, too, sir.
With us today is Jim Schroeder.
He is the Principal Owner of Alta CEA.
And welcome to the program.
Jim, how are you doing today?
I'm doing really well.
Thank you very much for inviting me.
And this is new to me, but I reallydo appreciate the opportunity.
Well, I got to tell you,you have something that's really
(00:24):
exciting, and I think it's somethingthat has much farther, farther reaches.
And I think you're going to bethe person to be able to clarify things
and really help people givea really in-depth understanding
of shipping container, vertical farming.
So the nomenclature calledCEA is relatively new.
What's been around for many, many years isthis terminology called vertical farming.
(00:48):
And that's what started an awful lotof the interest in
controlled environment agriculture.
And that's what CEA is.
It's the The acronym CEA isControlled Environment Agriculture,
which is really a philosophyof taking Mother Nature and putting her
(01:11):
on the inside versus the outside.
So when you take Mother Nature and youput her on the inside, you have to really
think about what Mother Naturehas been and what she still continues
to do on a daily basis on the outside.
So that's what CEA is,Controlled Environment Agriculture.
The thing that I was most interestedin was the idea of taking a shipping
(01:33):
container and basically making itinto something that could actually
be, if you will, a completelyself-contained, growing environment.
That opens up all kinds of avenues that ifit's in an area that they don't have the
proper environmental conditions or theydon't have power or something like that.
So this could potentiallybe a solution for world hunger.
(01:56):
Tell us a little bit more about that,about where this drives where the idea
is of taking a shipping containerto turn it into a growing environment.
Well, let's take a step back.
So originally, CEA was just strictlygreenhouse, all within the same context
of controlled environment agriculture.
(02:17):
You take a greenhouse and you're basicallydoing the same thing.
You're putting everythingon the inside, a glass structure
or a plastic structure on the outside.
You're controllingthe air, you're controlling
by supplementing the light in there.
Now, what you want to think aboutis, how are you going to
control that whole atmosphere?
(02:38):
So you can do what they call horizontalplane growing, which is greenhouses, or
you really want to reduce your footprint,now you can look at it vertically.
So you take that same concept ofa greenhouse that's all done on a large
footprint on a horizontal, and you put itinto a more confined area vertically.
(03:03):
Now you've got the ability to takethe inside concept and you can put it
into a singular structure that are builtto suit, or you can take some of the older
buildings in that and refurbish them,remodel them, and repurpose
them into vertical farming.
(03:24):
And there's been a lot of conversationsas to how to do it and what's best
and how to control that environment.
Now, you throw some other technology in,and it's called aquaplonix.
Aquaplonix is taking the fish partof agriculture, and you use the nutrients
(03:44):
of the fish, and you tie that in togetherwith controlled environment agriculture
as a nutrient source.
So that's just another avenueof the growing systems net in there.
Originally, when I got involved in it,which is about 15 years ago, it was all
based on trying to repurpose buildingsor build new structure.
(04:09):
And there's been greenhouses aroundfor years and years and years.
Actually, there's been a lotof vertical farming that has been
around for many years, too.
The difference being withthe different types of technology
that are utilized to grow the product.
And some of these, we just use somebasic terminology technology, deep water
(04:31):
culture, which is growing the plantsin water with the floating rafts.
And then there's ebb and flow, which meansthat you're just flooding the roots,
and then that nutrient just leaves.
And then there's other thingslike aeroponics, where all you're doing
is using a mist system, and most of thatis done on vertical walls and that.
(04:53):
So there's lots of different typesof technology that's available.
Part of the problem with developing a CEAin large centers in that, and I'm talking
about urban centers in that, is ittakes a fairly significant footprint.
And you look at that and you say, okay, soyou've got a very specific clientele for
(05:16):
that, and it's a 99 % of it's commercial.
So you're growing lettucefor restaurants and any other food source
that you want to put intothe retail side of the business.
One One of the problems that came up is,how do you now take
and just service the small systems,the small communities,
(05:39):
the person that wants to puttheir own system in that,
their growing system in that in closeproximity to their workplace,
or somebody that wants to bean entrepreneur and have a small growing
system in that in their backyardin that for commercialization.
(06:00):
And this is what really spawnedthe idea of container farming.
So there was an awful lotof businesses that have revolved
around containers and all kinds of them.
There have been breweriesand microbreweries, and they're
building houses out of these things.
So somebody with some very, verygood entrepreneurial engineering said,
(06:24):
Why don't we look at trying to put somegrow systems in there and reduce footprint
down to something that you can modulizeinto a grow system in that that you
can put in close proximity to a market.
And that's really whatcontainer growing is all about,
(06:44):
is being able to utilize a smallerfootprint, still utilize the vertical
farming system within it,control the air and the light,
the humidity, temperature,and all of that in a smaller area.
And that's what containerfarming is all about.
You can still grow lettucesand tomatoes and vine crops
(07:06):
and that all within a confined area.
And yes, it's a very confinedworkspace, but there is economics to it.
And The ROIs are totallybased on what does that end user
want to be able to grow and market.
And in some cases, they justwant to be able to consume it themselves.
That's amazing that there's that muchinvolved with it.
(07:29):
I know we We earlier discussed about,you don't just take a container and start
putting some lights and some soil andsome hydroponics, and it'll all work fine
because it doesn't work like that.
Maybe you could touch base on,maybe go back to that conversation,
tell a little bit more about howit's not as simple as just putting lights
and water and plants inside of something,and it'll all work like Mother Nature.
(07:51):
That's wishful thinking.
I've wish for that many,many, many, many, many times.
What people really do haveto understand is that anything to
do with CEA, and I don't care if it'scontainer farming or if it's aeroponics
or aquaponics, this is a science.
This is not just mama going out or daddygoing out and throwing some seeds
(08:14):
into the ground in a gardenand hoping that it's going to grow.
The specifics that you need to look atwhen you're doing container farming,
and container farming has got a smallfootprint, but it's also got a small area
to So everything that's in that containeris part of this controlled environment.
(08:36):
So light, temperature, air flow, the typeof substrate that you're using, if you're
using substrate, even the type of seed.
And there are an awful lot of people thatdon't understand that the seed that you
throw in your garden doesn't necessarilygrow very well in the container
(08:58):
or any of the CEA environment.
And then when you're buying seedfrom McKinsey Seed, I got to be careful
with that because I don'tknow where everybody's talking.
But when you go to your local storeand you buy seed, you got to be very,
very careful that this productis actually designed to grow
in a hydroponic atmosphere.
(09:21):
So you're better to do a lotof research on your seed availability
and what you're looking at.
The other thing that you have to be,again, very, What I'm very cognizant
of is the maturity levelthat you want to grow to.
So if you take this thing called verticalfarming, and you've got 12 inches
(09:42):
of bed space from your substrateto your light, if that's even got 16
inches, what are you going to grow in it?
If you're going to choose your plantthat's going to have a two foot, three
foot canopy, you're going to be very,very, very upset with the How it grows.
The other thing is on your cycle times.
(10:03):
So your environment that you're growingin, the temperature of your water,
everything that has to do with growingin an indoor environment is got to be
something that's based on a lotof science, a lot of research,
and you've got to be ableto do a lot of record keeping.
There are plant varieties.
And the last time that I was talkingto the people at Johnny Seed,
(10:27):
there's about 1100 There aredifferent varieties of lettuce.
And lettuce is a very,very broad, broad term.
And not all of these lettucesin that grow well in the garden,
and they don't grow well incontrolled environment applications.
So you really have to know exactlywhat you want to do with that.
(10:50):
And the other thing that you gotto remember is that the nutrient that you
have to give the plant, like MotherNature, is not just a common nutrient.
It's not like going to, again, your localhardware store and buying a garden-type
nutrient that is very, very broadbandded.
That doesn't necessarilywork in a controlled environment.
(11:14):
Because the thing called Participant, youdevelop your nutrient, and the last thing
you want is nutrient dropoutto end up within the bottom of your tank,
your storage tanks, and that over there.
You have to have theproduct that totally soluble.
And each one of the typesof the plants that you want to grow
(11:35):
has its own requirements.
So just because you've got your lettuceand tomatoes growing side by side in a
garden doesn't necessarily I really mean.
And a lot of people say, Gee,my lettuce grew really well, but I didn't
get anything from tomatoes this year.
Well, it's because theyhave a different nutrient base.
So this is a science, and you just don'tbuy a container farm and And then
(12:00):
say, Okay, tomorrow, I'm nowgoing to be a horticulturist.
It really does come down toknowing exactly what you have.
I use the analogy quite often with people.
It's like going down toyour friendly neighborhood truck store.
You're going to be an 18-wheeler andsomebody sells you a truck and throws you
the key and says, now you is one.
(12:20):
And that's exactly the way that it works.
You really do have to know whatyou're getting into when you're talking
about container farming.
They are exceptional in whattheir capabilities are.
They can grow tremendous volumesof very, very high
nutrient content product in there.
(12:42):
But you have to understand this wholething called controlled environment.
That's very informative because I know,again, in doing the research for this
podcast, just looking out there, it'slike I've seen, Oh, we sell this whole
thing, but there's no discussion as toall the things you're talking about.
I think a lot of people get this stuff.
Like you said, it's like going downto the truck dealership and
(13:04):
they'll throw you the keys,maybe an owner's manual, and that's it.
I know one of the things we wantto talk about is the need for training,
because these are not somethingthat you just pick up online, ship it
out to your place, and juston a weekend, put it all together.
Walk us through that a little bit as wellas what's involved in actually
(13:29):
getting everything, getting one started.
At Alta CEA, we've got horticultural PhDs.
These people are scientistsin every aspect of
controlled environment agriculture.
Right from how does a personselect the seed, what substrate, then how
(13:55):
you germinate plants and your cycling.
So let's just take It's like a grow bed.
And you've got a vertical farm systemyou can have anywhere up to five
grow beds on both sides of it.
The thing that you want to do,if you're going to do this thing
commercially, you've got togrow these things in continuous cycles.
You don't want to plant everything rightat the very start and get them all to
(14:21):
mature, and then you harvest everything,and then you have got a whole bunch of
beds over there that are doing absolutelynothing until the next germination phase.
So this is a And you have to havehorticulturists in that that really
do understand the science of germination,the science of transplanting, the science
of growing to a maturity level.
(14:42):
Now, one of the problemsthat people really do need to address
is the client, the end user.
What are you doing with that product?
Whether you're growing microgreensor you're growing mature plant,
that person that's going tobuy your product, you've got to be able
to find out exactly what that marketIt is just based on the maturity.
(15:02):
And that maturity level can be,if you take a romaine, is a good example.
You can take standard romaine that you seein a romaine package in a retail store is
totally different than in the bulk aisle.
And the difference in the maturityis based on days and cycle time.
So this is whata horticulturist will teach you.
(15:24):
The other thing that isthe nutrient value.
The nutrient depletion.
As your plants are growingand you're using drip irrigation,
in most cases it's using drip irrigationor deepwater culture, the floating rafts,
the plants are takingup the nutrient that they want.
(15:46):
So now you've got this return cycle of anutrient in water coming back to a tank.
The whole replenishmentof that is, again, it's based
on a science, and it's called EC.
It's electrical conductivity.
It tells you what your nutrient level is.
But I'll give you a good example.
Again, if you're taking lettuce and you'regrowing it in the same container system,
(16:12):
lettuce will uptake a specific nutrientfor that, where if you're taking
a herb like a basil, for instance,it takes up an awful lot more.
And you have to be ableto identify as it's growing
that the nutrient levels are always totheir maximum fulfillment of the plant.
And you have to look at the planton a daily basis to see if there's
(16:35):
any difference in the leaf structure,specifically on the outside of that leaf.
This takes training.
And if people understand that you can'tlearn this in one growth cycle,
a learning cycle based on numerousgrowth cycles and problem solving.
If it was just a matter ofgoing in there and turning this switch
(16:57):
on and everything is goingto start to grow, that's not reality.
So we look at it from atotally different perspective.
Yes, we would love to be ableto sell you this container, but we also
want to make very, very surethat you understand that the success
of your business is based on training.
(17:17):
Our systems, when we market a system,it has the cameras in it.
It has the WiFi systems in it.
Our PhDs are readily availableafter the training to discuss all of
the problem solving issues in that.
And a lot of the problem solving issuesare absolutely because of the lack
(17:41):
of training from the operator.
And that is airflow, temperature,nutrient values, all of these things
are all part of the science of boning it.
It sounds like this thingis a big mystery, but it's not.
It really has to do with takingthe curriculum of a good training program
and then going backover and over and over and having
(18:03):
that reference material there all the timeand having the availability of somebody
that is a horticultural scienceas your reference point.
I think that's important to mentionbecause in our earlier discussion,
you were saying there are nota lot of training places.
It's not just the equipment, but it's alsothat you can actually know how to be able
(18:23):
to take care of everything.
Well, there's also technology within thecontainer that people have to I
really understand, and that is,normally you'll have somewhere between 12
to 18 inches of space between yoursubstrate where your plant is growing and
the light, and it's called to the Canopy.
(18:46):
So that time frame that that plantis growing, there are time frames
in there that you really haveto be very cognizant of the science.
You have to adapt and you have be ableto adjust your nutrient value
based on the maturity of that plant.
The other thing that you have to dois you also have to understand
(19:09):
the whole airflow aspect of it.
You can't have a windblowing there 100 miles an hour,
but you have to have a vortex.
And if you got this really long,narrow, square unit and you're trying
to create a vortex, you have to be ableto control that vortex in there.
No different than Mother Nature.
(19:30):
So you're trying to be Mother Natureon the inside, so you really
have to understand your environment.
In our systems in that over there, wehave got the HVAC systems in place that
control the temperature, but you're alsotrying to control the humidity, and your
humidity is going to change based on thatparticular plant and the plant maturity.
(19:54):
So you're dealing with, again, the scienceof that plant and Mother Nature.
And if you're trying If you do thegermination based on one humidity level
and you've got at the other endof your cycle, you've got the maturity
of that, this is all part of theunderstanding of how that thing grows.
And to be successful at it,you have to understand the science of it.
(20:17):
If you're talking about some ofthese everbearing type things
like strawberries not over there,you have that exact same thing.
People need to understand thatif you're growing strawberries
on a container, there's no bees in there.
So you have to be Mother Nature.
So you have to be ableto understand how to pollinate.
(20:38):
And very successful containerof farms because they have somebody
that's got a bee bonnet onand she's going around or he's going
around there actually being a bee.
You have to know what your market isand what you're going to do with it,
and the type of substratethat you're going to grow in there.
And that requires training,and it requires resources to be able
(21:01):
to make sure that you're alwayskeeping those plant cycles in place.
So we have got people that have beengrowing strawberries and have the same
plant cycles for three years, four years.
But what happens is that when the plantstarts to drop off in performance,
(21:21):
you actually have to replace it.
That means that you have tohave plants ready to change in there.
So you always have that constant changein that in there when you're having
the ever-bearing type product in there.
But this requires resourcesof knowledge and training and
really heavy record keeping.
(21:43):
So you have to be able to bethere on a daily basis.
You have to understand exactlywhat's going on, and you have to have
the monitoring system in thatin order to be successful.
Just walk us through a little bit ofsome of the technology that came together
so that these actually are there now.
In most containers, farming overthere, you have racking
(22:07):
that is your grow bed system.
The difference in the typesof grow bed systems in there, Again,
you can go with substrate systems,you can go with tubular systems,
you can also use the deepwater culture,which is the floating raft in there.
That's the base of yourgrowing system in there.
(22:28):
Those all require a Theyhave nutrient flow.
They have water, nutrient injectionsystems that are directed either directly
on the plant themselves or withinthe substrate of that plant.
So you've got these things called growbeds, and they're sitting on a rack.
Above When you're in that,you've got LED lights.
And LED lights are very, very specific.
(22:50):
The LED lights are based on a spectrum.
And Mother Nature, when you go outsidein a night, sun, shiny day,
has got every part of that spectrum.
When you're in an enclosedenvironment, you don't need all that.
You don't need the realhigh intense white light.
(23:10):
What you do need isa little bit of white light.
You need lots of red light.
You need lots of blue light.
And under most circumstances,you really don't even need an awful lot
of the white light, but you needsome white, blue, red, and a little bit
of yellow and a little bit of green.
That's the spectrum.
So you're trying to duplicate whatMother Nature is all about.
(23:32):
So that done in an LED system.
Now, pretty well everythingin any of the new houses now, you've got
an LED that is your standard replacementfor fluorescent or incandescent.
And And that's either a soft whiteor a daytime white.
That's the same technology, andit's all based on what they call a PFD.
(23:56):
It's the type of light.
So when somebody comes to usand they say they want to grow
leafy greens and herbs, andto some degree, some of the vine crop.
That's an LED light,that very specific spectrum.
Now, if you wanted to have a containerthat was growing cannabis,
(24:17):
that's a totally different spectrum.
So if you want leafy productover there, that's one spectrum.
If you want flowering productand you want to grow nothing
but flowering potted plants and stufflike that, that's a different spectrum.
You can get LEDs that are tunableto the different spectrums, but a lot
(24:37):
of that has to do with daylightand your timing of this thing.
So the LED lights in that arealways a on a cycle.
And normally, it's, I will say,an average of 12 to 14 hours.
But there are some plantsthat require the lights to be on
with an intensity of 16 hours.
But plants need to sleep, so they needto be dark, and they need to be very dark
(25:02):
if it's all possible during that time.
And the different aspiration rates of howthe full sense of this works is based
on that light absorption add in there.
Some of the other technologyin there, you have to have the HVAC,
which is the temperature control.
(25:26):
So we always try to make sure thatour mean average temperature temperature
is 70 degrees F, 20 degrees C.
That's pretty tough to do if you're ina Canadian climate where it's minus 40.
So you have to have the whole HVAC system.
So you have to have the furnace in therethat is the supplemental for the heat.
(25:52):
But in the summertime, when it'splus 30 outside or 90 degrees
outside, now you have to get ridof that So you have to have
that mean average temperature in there.
So that whole area of air conditioningthrough the summer months
and that over there has got to be there.
The other thing that we do is yougot to create this vortex of air.
(26:15):
And the air movement is very,very important, not just on the outside
of your growing system, buton the inside and even down to
what they call the crown of your plant.
And the reason why you have to havea lot of air flow in there
is to reduce the amount of mold.
(26:36):
And white mold is part of thecritical thing that you have to control.
And you do that by having not dryair, but air movement.
You try to keep a relative humidity levelof about 40 %, about the same
as what you would do in an office,not necessarily in a house.
So you do that by having dehumidifiers.
(26:59):
And we put those dehumidifiers onthe ceiling where you get your maximum
temperature, and we take that waterand we take that dehumidifier
and we pull the water out.
So that our air is alwaysmoving on that cyclone and
moving that dryer air from the topto the bottom and all the way down to
(27:21):
the floor level and that over there.
And that is based on how you angleyour fan systems in that on the grow bed.
But again, it's part of a science.
So You have to be very, very carefulwith how you move your air.
You have to be very careful with theamount of humidity and your nutrients.
So a lot of this stuffis all based on the monitoring system.
(27:41):
So you're always constantlymonitoring exactly that grow
environment, because what you're doingis you're maximizing the growth rate
and the productivity that you've gotin that very small container space.
A lot of it has to do with,again, this thing called food safety.
So you don't want mold,you don't want mildew.
(28:05):
You want to make sure thatall of these things are controlled.
And it's very, very important, again,from a training standpoint of view,
how do you control How do you control it?
And how do youdo all of the proper environment controls
in order to be able to make that happen?
I want to touch base on something becauseone of the things I noticed was that it's
(28:28):
also mentioned on the on your websiteabout that it is an off-the-grid system.
How is solar power utilizedin these shipping containers?
And what role does it playin making it a self-sufficient system?
Okay, so let's go back.
There's two ways to run your power.
(28:50):
So if you're in a parking lotand buy a hotel, you don't need
anything other than the plug in power.
Normally, it's a standard 110, 120 volts.
What we do is that we put everythingon the outside in the control box,
that over there, and you plug itin with a great big long extension
(29:12):
cord, and you're good to go.
Now, if you're in an area that is notnearly as accessible, or if you want to
power the container by itself,there's different methodologies.
So if you're If you're going to use solarpower, you can either use what they call
(29:34):
a ground array, which is justyour solar panels net are constructed
and set at angles net on a rack system.
You can also place it on the topof your container if you want to do that.
So what we do is that we design thesolar array for the power requirement.
(29:56):
But again, you have to remember thatif you're doing solar by itself, now
you have to have battery storagebecause solar doesn't work with a darn.
I just about said the otherword, but with a darn at night time.
So you have to have storage in there.
So you have to have that continuous power.
So if you're totally off-grid,it requires a lot more technology.
(30:21):
But the cost savings of that is therethat, of course, you're not having to
pay for your typical grid power.
But your investment for that It is longterm, and it requires your standard
solar panel array plus storagein order to be able to give you power
(30:43):
continually, 24 hours a day.
The other side of that is that if solaris not advantageous, say, in Northern
Canada, now you have to lookat different methodologies
of powering that over there.
So we also have as options withinour system, power generator systems
(31:06):
that are either natural gas, propane ordiesel-powered in that in order to give
you the 24-hour power system in there.
When it comes to the generator systems netover there, it's exactly the same thing.
The one thing that you cannot do with anya controlled environment is lose power.
So you have to havebackup power of some sort.
(31:29):
Yes, we be without powerfor anywhere up to 24 to 48 hours
over there, but you will startto see issues because you can't
get enough airflow in that in there.
So having a standby generator is partof the planning cycle, and it's also part
of the training cycle as to exactlyhow this thing all gets done.
(31:50):
But let's talk a little about howpeople really think this thing through.
And if you look at the placementof this container and Utilizing what
Mother Nature does on the outside.
These are things that youhave to be very cognizant of.
Where is your outside air flow?
The thing that you want to dois you want to be able to heat sink
(32:11):
this unit to its best ability.
So does that mean that you're placing itmore north and south and east and west?
It's all based on proximityand where you're going to put it,
where's your shade and all of that.
So this takes some thought process.
And again, discussing it withour application people, our horticultural
(32:33):
engineers and our PhDs, and workinga layout and saying, Okay, this
is my backyard or this is my location.
What's best?
Then you start talking about power and airflow and water and all of these things.
And also, what are you goingto do with your nutrient water?
(32:54):
In a lot of case, you just can'tthrow that out on a parking lot.
It's got to go into a drain system.
So all of this is part of the discussionand part of the planning process that we
offer when we're trying to set somebodyup with a container system in there.
The planning process isvery, very important.
So we go through a checklist,and it's on our website
(33:15):
as to exactly what that all means.
And we ask peopleto go onto the website, do
the actual product evaluation on there.
That gives us a really good basisfor what we're going to be able
to recommend in the whole aspectof what is that container going to be and
where it's going to be located on there.
(33:36):
So we like to make sure that we getas much information in there in order
to be able to apply the science that weknow that it's going to take in order to
be able to have a very functional system.
What about scalability options?
Is this something that being modular,I would imagine it can be scaled, but
that's going to also change some dynamicsin the overall picture, I would imagine.
(33:59):
Okay.
Okay, so when we're talkingabout scalability, there's things that
you really have to look at, scalability.
So you've got this plant source.
So you have to look at what are yougoing to do after harvest?
You've got this 40-foot container whereyou're going to take your product out.
It's going to be in plastic bags.
(34:21):
You're going to take itsomeplace, and you have to always
be very cognizant of food safety.
So you're harvesting this product,and now it's got to go into a cooler
of some sort in close proximityto where you're harvesting.
What people really have to read,again, this is a science.
So our horticultors are goingto ask the end customer,
(34:44):
you're going to harvest this product,and what are you going to put it into?
You're going to put it into a basket?
Okay, you're goingto put it into a basket.
Now, just remember,when you put it into the basket,
now you've got a product temperaturethat's at 70 degrees C, and you're going
to You have it in plastic bags, and nowyou're going to put it into a cooler.
Now you're going to end up with a lotof humidity problems in there.
(35:06):
So you have to cool this product down.
As soon as you talk about scalability,now you have to add some other components
into this scalability.
So you can have a lot of gross systems,but now you have to have other things
involved with that scalability,and that's coolers.
So as soon as you talk about any volumeother than what you would normally
(35:31):
produce in a 40-foot container, andif you did these things in multiples, and
we've got designs that are called the H.
So you get two on the outsideand one in the middle, and now you've got
this H factor, and that's three.
You can Go up verticallyand add ones on the top.
Same all the time.
As soon as you do that,the other problems that come into it,
(35:53):
what do you do with your harvestand how do you handle your harvest?
And what's the safety factorsin that that you need?
The last thing that you want to dois get involved with all the other,
the bad things that you hear about,like lysteria and samonella
and botulism and all the rest of it.
And that's all the human sideof how you're handling your product.
(36:14):
So our So again, our staff are goingto train you how to handle the product.
And it's just some of the basicsof this personal protection.
You're using gloves and you're usingsmocks and hair nets and all the rest
of that stuff because you're tryingto now market that product
(36:36):
into the human food chain.
You have to be very, very cognizant.
So the scalability is there.
And you can just continuallyadd multiples of that.
But the complexity of that nowcomes back to, what are you
(36:57):
going to do to handle it?
You can't have that product justgo into your garage and sitting on
the garage floor over there and tryto figure out how you're going to market
that product into a farmer's marketbecause it doesn't work that way anymore.
What challenges did youface getting to this point?
Was it technology or was it just...
(37:18):
It seems like there's a lot ofmoving gears here, and I could see where
that would cause a lot of challenges.
Maybe just touch base on some of those.
Actually, it's not.
Actually, the It's the planning process,and it's the whole discovery,
and we call it the discovery process.
So we have people that will...
(37:42):
They just make the inquiryand they say, Okay, I want
to get into the CEA business.
And again, whether it's container orwhether it's a full-blown construction,
there's a start point of the discussion.
And then what we say,In order for us to give you
a good representation of the technology,we would like you to go on our website
(38:04):
and fill in the basic questionnaire.
And the basic questionnaire gives usan idea of what you're thinking, where
your thinking, where's your mindset?
Then we can come up withthe recommendation
as to even the container size.
The average container iswhat they call a 40-foot high cube.
(38:25):
But we can alsosupply that in a 20-foot container.
The value of the 20-footcontainer, it's not the same.
You still have to have basicallythe same components in it,
so you don't have the same ratio.
So your 40-foot containeris your best ratio for that.
But the challenge is always the same.
(38:48):
You have to be ableto understand that Mother Nature
is on the inside, not on the outside.
So you have to have allthat science in there.
And as much as I hate to say it,it's not rocket science.
You really do have to understandthe science of horticulture
and the science of Mother Nature.
Now you put it all together and you canput it into a container, you can put it
(39:10):
into a building, you can put it intomany different types of applications.
I'm not just talking about the typicalnutrient injection systems
and deep water culture.
You can go to other systems.
When you look at all ofthe different applications of what
it all takes, we've already done it.
We We've got the light technology,we've got the air technology,
(39:33):
the humidity controls.
All of those things areall part of what we do.
What we just need to understand is thatwhat do you want to do as a business?
What do you want to do?
I have a customer right nowthat wants to grow strawberries
for their strawberry winery.
They want a very, very specificvariety, and they want
a very specific ratio of harvest.
(39:54):
So they need from us what we're goingto be able to provide them from a
technology side because they already havea large greenhouse where it's growing.
They want to be able to havethe containers now so they can
grow strawberries in the wintertime.
What we're doing is we're providing themwith the information that they need
(40:15):
in order to have those same peoplethat are working in the summertime
now work in the wintertime onlywithin the controlled environment.
The challenge for us is to make surethat they understand that being in a
greenhouse is not any anywhere similar onthe technology to being in a controlled
environment system within a container.
(40:36):
The challenge for our horticulturistis not the technology of the container.
It's the technology thatwe need to support the culture.
And therein lies some of the biggestproblems is that when you look at some of
the cultures in Africa, for instance,they're more on the protein side of it.
(40:58):
So we've got to to be able to understandexactly what that application is.
So we change the type of growing systemin there, and we add drip systems
that are more like we callthe technologies called Dutch Bucket.
And they're still within that sameconfined of the container farm
(41:20):
in there because you needeverything else that's in there.
But it's a different type of technologythat we need to support their culture.
And we're doing that right now in Kenya.
We're doing it right nowin some of the areas of Africa.
They want to have the containersas part of their disaster relief program.
They know that the hurricanesare coming through no matter what.
(41:41):
So how do we make that work?
Can we do that with different typesof support systems for power?
Power off-grid for themis very, very important.
So that's where the solar comes in,and that's where even some of the
cogen generation system generator systemsin that, they need to have that in there.
(42:03):
So when we go into a very specificmarket or, I guess, a community
sector, we go back to this very,very basic fundamentals.
What is it that you want to grow?
What is it and where is itthat you're going to grow?
What are your parameters?
Temperature?
What's the proximity to potable water?
(42:25):
All of these things are partof the discovery that we supply
when we're going in to make sure that wecan actually supply them with a product.
The 40-foot container, welook at it as it's got to be turnkey
for all of those things.
And as long as that we can get itto a shipping port, those 40-foot
(42:45):
containers are on ships all the time.
Now you just have to figure out exactlyhow you're going to work the proximity.
What we do offer the people,even in Africa, is come to
our training facility right here inthe bright lights of Annaway, Alberta.
And we're going to train your peoplewhile we're building your container.
(43:07):
And when it gets to-Oh, that's cool.
When it gets to being dumpedoff in your location, we're just going
to ship your people back by airplane,and they're going to be ready
to turn and switch on and get going.
What we're also providing is actualtraining centers so that when we go into
(43:28):
a continent like Africa, you have to havethe ability to be able to take our people
and put them with their people.
So we can either do thathere at our training center
or we can go over there and do that.
Very, very important that wehave that ability to be able to
do that and communicate after the fact.
(43:49):
So we talked briefly about monitoringsystems, being able to have our people
readily available in that througheither Zoom or one of the WiFi systems
and that over there to be able to chatwith our people and help solve problems.
And this is all partof the training program.
(44:11):
So as much as that I, and I think youunderstand that I am so fixated on
the training aspect of it because I thinkit's an absolute necessity and it doesn't
make any difference what it is.That is amazing.
It just keeps expanding, and there'sanother opportunity, another opportunity.
(44:32):
It seems like this is really somethingthat is growing and can solve a lot
of different needsin a lot of different areas.
And like you said, a lot of it comes backto the training and the planning
is what it really comes down to.
We've got the technology down,but we need to better understand
what the end user needs and what arethe factors that we need to put into it
(44:53):
so that we can build the plan around it.
We want people to interact with ususing our website to give us the initial
information, the feedback, justby filling in the documentation
over there, that's the start point.
Then what we need to understand isour own cycle time to build these things.
(45:15):
It's not like a Ford or a Chevy pickupthat is just sitting in there
waiting to get done because the end userhas to tell us exactly what they want
because we have to be able to change it.
Yes, the seat can is there, the doorwaysare there, but everything else
on the inside has got to be...
I don't like using the wordcustomized, but it is close to that.
(45:39):
So there's a lot of aspectsto container farming, and I always maybe
look too much to the negativityof what can happen versus the positive.
But if people really do understand there,it's a very, very, very positive aspects
(46:00):
of utilizing container farmsand add in there for
many different growth cycles in there.
I'm going to give youthe last two minutes.
If you want to summarize anythingor if we didn't cover,
you get the last two minutes.
If we can sit down and we can talk aboutthe needs and the requirements of the end
(46:21):
user, we have the solutions for that.
And we can provide the different CEAtechnology, the different
water purification system technology.
It's all part of what we do,and it's not just a one-off.
The container by itselfis a very, very good application.
(46:41):
But if you don't have the other partsof that application over there,
it's not part of a success story.
So at Elta CEA, we have the abilityto provide most of those solutions.
And if there was anythingthat I really like to focus on right
now, It's that small community.
(47:02):
It's the small communitywithin a community having the application
of a container to be ableto supply the small community.
And we focus an awful lot on First Nationsand the tribes of North America
to be able to supply some ofthat food application in there.
(47:23):
So it's all within the application.
It all starts with the discussionas to what is it that you want to do?
And let's see if we can fit itinto an actual plan that can come up with
a solution that's based on food security,food sovereignty, and food safety.
(47:45):
That's fantastic.
Hey, before I forget, howcan somebody get in touch with you?
We've talked about the website.
What's your website address?
I don't even think youdo it, but it's www.
Elta-cea.Ca.
Ca.Com.
Excellent.
Well, I'll tell you what,we'll put a link in the show notes.
I can't tell you this has beena really in-depth conversation
(48:08):
and a really interesting one.
I would like to have youcome back at a later time just
to do some follow-up questions and justsee new projects that you're working on,
because I think this is very interesting,and I think you've shed a lot of light.
I really appreciate havingthe opportunity, too.
I like talking about...
Thank you very, very much, and lookforward to the interaction down the road.
(48:31):
Sounds great.Thanks, Jim.
Have a good afternoon.You, too, sir.
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