May 11, 2022 • 46 mins
An Interview About Indoor Grow Lights & Technology
Grow Lights have been around for decades and have evolved from fluorescent to high pressure sodium to most recently LED. Grow lights are critical to indoor growing operations because they supply the light which is converted into plant energy through a process called photosynthesis. As technological advancements have been made so to has the understand of just how indoor light affects plant growth. New terminology like Far red, UV, and full spectrum have become more important. The other factor in grow lights is the costs, both in initial investment as well as operating costs. The problem is that one can get quickly overwhelmed with all the information online as to which type is the best for indoor growing, what characteristics are important and innovations in the industry.
We recently interviewed had the opportunity to speak with Jeff Nall a Technical Advisory Board Member for gGRO Horticulture. And talk about what you should know about grow lights and the innovations the gGro lighting system brings to the marketplace.
More information on the best indoor grow lights is available at biz-reps.com.
You can also visit our blog at Small Business Talks Blog
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Advancements in technology for growlights Today on Small Business talks.
If growing plants indoors is a partof your business,
you already know the importance of growlighting to boost plant growth and yield.
(00:21):
You also can appreciate the costassociated with indoor grow lights,
both in capital investmentas well as operating costs.
What you may not know is the advancementin technology that can both improve plant
growth and significantlyreduce your costs.
We recently had the opportunity
to interview Jeff Null,technical advisory board member
(00:41):
for G Grow Horticulture, about growlights and innovations in the industry.
Grow lights in general.
Number one, it's about full spectrumbecause the spectrum is basically
the wavelengths ranging from everythingfrom ultraviolet to infrared.
And wavelengths basically stimulate
(01:01):
an enzyme that create growththat's photosynthesis.
But plants have to actuallyhave four growing cycles.
But the two that are most affected
by light is the vegetative or vegetativestage and the flowering stage.
Blue light affects itat the growing stage.
Red light helps it morein the flowering stage.
(01:25):
The big players in the market are thehigh pressure sodium.
I keep seeing a lot of fluorescent,
but I don't know of anyonethat actually uses fluorescent bulbs.
Usually you do see some fluorescentin the cloning stage where you don't need
the intensity, but a fullspectrum is very good.
(01:49):
So a lot of cloning stage where the plants
are only a few inches tall or less, whereyou're trying to create that germination.
They call them clone rooms,where they're trying to get
the very small clippings to roota little bit before going into beds.
(02:09):
So typically you'll see very small racks,almost like vertical farming
of fluorescence, and then the verysmall plants right underneath those.
But it's very low light outputcomparatively to a grow light.
Okay, excellent.
I think one of the things that I found wasthat it seems like there was
(02:32):
the fluorescent there's the highpressure sodium, which I.
Equate.To street lamps in industrial lighting.
That's what.
Yeah, they were invented very highintensity were used because that sounds
like it was the first bigmovement was many years ago.
And then it looks like everyone has
switched to then there's, of course,Hid, which is a variety of technologies.
(02:56):
I keep equating this to ceramic, metal,
halide, but I'm learning to evenadapt the way I'm wording that.
Right.Led are out there.
The big problem they have isthere's no standardization.
So you don't really knowwhat you're buying.
There's no standard to saythis is made for grow lights.
Right.
As I did keyword research, I saw canmy patio Led rope light rates grow.
(03:22):
Oh, my gosh.
I realize that when I do keyword research,I'm actually seeing what the market feels
about things you're actually seeing,because that's what people are typing in.
All my data is coming rightback from what Google captures.
Right.I thought that was funny.
So the big things I got out of it wasnot very intense, more red than blue,
(03:50):
doesn't have the full spectrum,does not have UV or infrared.
And it sounds, although I didn'thave anything, I can confirm this.
There seems to be this battle that
infrared are evil and they'll kill youand all that,
but they actually are needed becausethe plant needs that,
(04:11):
because it provides information that, oh,you're in the sun, you need to move or you
need to start producing this kind of thingand if you can control that,
you can actually increase the capacityof the plant or what function is doing.
And ultraviolet, I work with a lotof water treatment companies.
Ultraviolet is the greatest thingfor getting rid of mold,
(04:33):
getting rid of mildew,getting rid of certain diseases
and bacterias and evenpests and things like that.
The endpoint that I came to was that and I
tried to bring through a lot of these is,listen, there's a lot of technologies
you're going to get veryquickly overwhelmed with it.
The best thing you want is somethingthat can closely mimic the sun,
(04:55):
that has broad spectrum intensityto be able to penetrate the canopy.
Photosynthesis
red and blue light having the differentwavelengths, having the full spectrum,
the UV and the infrared,basically all these technologies,
they can all grow a plant, but they allhave varying degrees of what they can do.
(05:20):
G grow has really kind of changed thisaround because they have come up
with using as the basis kindof the ceramic metal halide,
which has a lot positivecapabilities over other methods.
But in the actual unit itself,you've got two lighting elements, right?
(05:42):
And from what I understand it basicallyyou have the blue and you have the red or
you have something that can maybe,and that's why I need your help.
So we actually do have twolamps in each fixture.
So the fixture is a 630 Watt fixture.
It's really 2315 Wattlamps or bolts that go inside of it.
(06:07):
Each of those surrounding highlight lamps.
And I call it lamp because traditionallyin the lighting industry it's not like
a table lamp you callthe bulb itself is the glass.
The lamp is the whole thing with the factthat we have two lamps in there.
They are not independent of color.
(06:28):
We do have two different
color temperatures or different,slight variations in spectrum that can be
used together, one of each if you wish,but some growers wish to have the 3000K,
some want the 4000K,which is slightly different spectrum,
both full spectrum, but we dohave two arc tubes in there.
(06:51):
Each of the lamps with the surroundinghighlight arc tubes pulls out the full
spectrum and each of the lamps is drivenby an independent, patented,
we call it ghid ballast,but high frequency ballast,
which is unique in the industryfor surrounding hillside and with our
(07:12):
patents, it's amazingly efficient, 97%,less efficient in terms of converting
the mains or the high voltage that'scoming from the wall or the panel
into what the lamps needto operate that arc tube.
(07:33):
So very efficient ballast.
We're not really seeingbecause of that efficiency.
We don't see a lot of heatgenerated from the balls itself.
The energy is really beinggenerated by the lamps.
To your earlier point about the different
spectrums of technology,we have to think about it in terms of
(07:55):
the evolution of lighting based on humanterms, because horticultural lighting has
been around,but not to the degree of research that it
has in the last several years,mostly because of cannabis,
because obviously, as humans, we'vealways had the sun to grow things, right?
(08:16):
So indoor grows are very unique.
We've had greenhouses also for millennia,you know what I mean?
It's like, yeah, but it's still the sun
and we've had supplementary lightingover the years.
But all of our spend in terms
of the lighting industry has been aroundhuman eye sensitivity curves,
(08:37):
which our eyes see between 400,which is blue, and 700, which is red,
and the green is directlyin the middle of 550.
That human eye sensitivity.
So what we see in terms of intensityof light is strongest in green,
(08:58):
which also makes sense if that's what'sreflected off of leaves in the jungle.
Everything else we see reallywell in green spectrum.
But all of our lighting has always evolvedin terms of research and development
to how do we optimizeagainst our ability to see.
The difference is we don't see UV ashumans, we don't see ultraviolet A,
(09:23):
B or C, and we also don'tsee far red, really at all.
We don't see infrared.
We might feel it a little bit,but we don't see those spectrums.
And so the plants can use those spectrums.Right?
So that's a difference.
And so when we think about a lot of even
the efficacy metrics that are used withinthe industry,
(09:47):
they're still based on efficacy metrics,essentially, that we used for our own use
about how bright is a parking lotor how bright is an office space.
And thinking through that,
one of the metricsthat are present within the industry is
trying to stop thinking that wayand think about photons.
(10:08):
And so quantification of micromoles.
Sotaking a Parmeter and reading
the intensity in terms of micro moles,it's really micromoles per meter per
second, but it's an intensity metricof how many photons are hitting it.
But because plants don't have a human eyesensitivity curve, sensitivity curve.
(10:33):
So most meters that would measurein lumens, which is a human metric,
are weighted so that they havethe humanized curve and can tell you what
the brightness would beto humans to get around that.
The metric is, for Horticultures,is micro moles.
The unfortunate part of that is it treats
all of photons as equally weightedin terms of if a photon hits the leaf
(10:57):
that's the same if it's a red or bluein terms of the metric,
the reality is just as you were mentioninga little bit earlier,
in terms of the power of high energyultraviolet to kill germs and activate
things, blue photons,they're blue to us, right?
(11:19):
They're perceived as blue to us because
our eyes understand it's a higherenergy photon than a red.
So we've developed that ability to seecolor because our eyes are sorting out
the power level of the photonsthat are hitting our eye.
A plant actually can useall that power spectrum.
So the plant doesn't seem blue and red,it sees in power coming in.
(11:45):
And so the physicists think about photonsin terms of electron boats, bolts.
So wavelength frequency.
And as with anything, if you have morepower, you've got a faster vibration.
Faster vibration is shorter wavelength.
That's why we talk in termsof wavelength for photons.
(12:06):
So 400 nanometer wavelength is actually
means it's a much shorter wavelengththan a 700 meters, which is red.
The shorter wavelength,
the higher energy photons, the blueversus the longer wavelength of red.
Point there is that if you think aboutthose in terms of actual power or energy
stored in the photons, blue is worthabout 60% more power than a red.
(12:32):
Photosynthesis to your earlier point,
in terms of how it's activated throughenzymes and how they absorb the energy,
the energy is absorbedin terms of electron volts.
So what's happening with that metric is
that we're telling ourselves,I don't care what the color of the photon
(12:53):
is, just get me as manyphotons as possible.
Which is why high pressure sodium works so
well in terms of that metric,because it's really all Orange,
but it's a heck a of lot of lowpower photons coming out.
But if you have the full spectrum,
like a G, GRA CMH or Sharon highlight,where we have the full spectrum all
(13:17):
the way down to the UVA and Ball the way into the far right.
What happens is that we are providing
on a full spectrum basis about 30%more electron volt power,
more power to create photosynthesis thanan equivalent Par reading for a high
pressure sodium lamp,because the plants think in terms but feel
(13:42):
in terms and activate chemicallyin terms of electron bolts or power.
So you need fewer blue photons to activatephotosynthesis than you do red.
And the other part is that we tend
to focus on the chlorophyl Aand chlorophyl B portions
of the peaks in those spectrumswhich we talk about in terms of red.
(14:05):
So we often say red photonsactivate photosynthesis.
But if you really look at the absorption
curves of chlorophyll,particularly the main chlorophyll A
and chlorophyll B, they havepeaks both in blue and red.
So by ignoring that portionof the spectrum, you're really not
(14:27):
optimizing how you're getting that powerto the photosynthesis, to the leaf itself.
So it's really interesting how we've kind
of created some I would call the mythswithin our own industry.
I was going to ask you about that and say,what are some of the myths?
(14:49):
Let's say I'm a new grower and I'm goingto come to you and say,
I've been told,don't use sodium vapor, don't use
what are the most common mythsthat you hear that you're facing?
A lot of it is related to Par readings
in the sense of thinking about, hey,I want to get
(15:14):
micro to as high an intensity leveland power measurement as possible.
And again, it's kind of a misnomer
in terms of, yes, you want the intensity,but a full spectrum will give you much
more opportunity to createphotosynthesis as possible.
And all of our metrics are reallythinking about the photosynthetic.
(15:40):
Parallel standsfor Photosynthetic active range.
Essentially, though Par is definedin the industry as 400 to 700,
the reality is the photobiologicallyactive range is much broader than that.
And there's another term that we don't
talk about, but there's a lotof research happening today with it.
(16:02):
It's called these are longterm photomorphogeneous.
So PHOTOMORPHIC, it's easy for you to say.
It's like super long runphotosynthesis photomorphogenesis.
But point being,
(16:24):
photosynthesis is used to activate sugarsand growth and so forth in the plant.
Photomorph,let's say, call it photomorphology
is related to triggers that youwere expressing earlier as well.
Plants can sense the level of infrared,
(16:44):
the level of UV in the spectrum,because it tells them things.
Now, do they think, no,it's just built into some
of the phytochromes and other thingsthat are not related to chlorophylls,
that are other pigments,that are absorbing other parts
of the spectrum that createphysical changes in the plants.
(17:10):
If you add UV, the responsefor the plant is different.
It's not photosynthesis,it's other aspects.
So the point there and we've done side
by side testing,testing of Ggraph highlight because
of the full spectrumat 630 Watts compared to 1000 Watt double
(17:32):
ended high pressure sodium bulb,Grove has double the amount of UVA and B
as 1000 Watt high pressure sodium,plus the advantage of having the UVA
and B, as you mentioned earlierreferred to, it's a great Germic idol.
The blue light is a great way to keep
(17:52):
UV is a great way tokeep the plant healthy and keep down
microbes, other thingsthat really shouldn't be there.
And from that perspective,
the whole spectrum is important becauseon high pressure sodium,
(18:14):
yes, it has a lot of Reds,but it has very little blue
and very obviously it hasa little UV, but not a lot.
Now, Led, on the other hand,has zero UV, zero far red, unless
you have an Led systemthat is buying far red LEDs,
(18:36):
which are relatively inefficient becauseLEDs were invented in 1962.
So they're really relativelynewer technology.
And until the 90s,
it was really only a very low level kindof indicator lamp,
type of aspect for panels and so forth,to say, hey, things are on or off,
(19:01):
very low level elimination, Reds,oranges, that kind of thing.
And blue LEDs were actually inventedin the commercialized in the early 2000s.
It's a very new technology.
And white Led is based on always a blueLed dye with a phosphor covering over top.
(19:29):
The phosphor absorbs the blue photons,and it's called Stokeshift.
But down converts into lower energy
photons that kind of createand fill out a spectrum.
All of that optimization, even since the
that's all based on and focusedentirely on human vision.
(19:53):
Again, that development for Led has always
been how do we getthe highest lumens per Watt?
A lot of folks in green.
So again, far red and UV are relativelynew developments in Led,
which means those aspects of the spectrumfor Led are not efficient yet.
(20:14):
So you will see someLed systems that do have full spectrum
that have introduced smaller quantities ofUVA output LEDs as well as far red.
But it takes a tremendous amount of Wattsfor them to generate those.
(20:37):
And it's an order magnitude less amountof UV than even high pressure sodium or
particularly surroundingthe hay light puts out.
So they're there, but they're not powerful
enough to really makethat much of a difference.
And I think you just hit on the otherthing I want to ask is people are going
(20:57):
to listen to the podcast,are going to ask is what are some
of the advantage of the Ggrowth system over that?
And I know just in my research of it cost
factors, your product seems to beoffering a nice alternative.
And let's talk about that.
Let's talk about that.
I think cost can be brokendown into two areas.
(21:19):
Is the initial I'm buying the fixturelights and all the beginning part.
But then there's also the long term.
And do people understand how much it costs
or do they get into it and thenfind out how much it costs?
No, I think it's the latter.But you're right.
So there's two costs.
There's acquisition costs and lifetimecosts or lifecycle costs.
(21:40):
So acquisition costs.
One end of the range, so to speak,
in terms of growth lightsis high pressure sodium.
They've been around for decades.
The high pressure sodiumfixtures double ended.
They can be anywherefrom $300 to $500 a piece.
(22:04):
An Led fixture to put out somewhatequivalent light output or par to a high
pressure sodium or closeand covering like a four X four area.
And often you see these fixtures kindof spread out with the LEDs and bars to be
able to cover a four foot by four footarea, typically those depending
(22:27):
on the output and depending on what typeof LEDs those are somewhere between
seven hundred and fifty dollarsto one thousand two hundred dollars.
Wow.
So they get fairly priceyand you are paying for performance.
So
you do see some differences there and it'snot just brand, it's also construction
(22:49):
number of LEDs efficiencies all thoseaspects
and I think we see more and more entranceinto the Led space in terms of design and
really the layout,but those represent the two and actually
in the middle is G grow becausewe are still utilizing.
(23:13):
The same type of Hid technologythat the large quantities of fixtures have
been developed over time usingballast and other components.
We have a specialized
ceramic lamp with a horticulturaldose in it and our patented ballast.
(23:38):
And then we have our fixture with our
highly reflective 95% plus reflectivemirror reflector on the inside,
specifically designedfor a five X five footprint.
But our price point isliterally in between the two.
So we're much more affordableacquisition cost than LEDs.
(24:02):
But the big takeaway too though,
is that at 630 Watts,we're essentially the same savings you
would see with LEDs as well, meaningthe Led systems that will cover those four
X four areas are typicallyabout 650 to 700 Watts.
(24:23):
So
compared to G grow, going with Led doesn'tactually save you additional energy.
There is also a thought within
growers or growers,because the LEDs compared to high pressure
sodium are a big savings,and so does G grow.
(24:46):
But the thought with Led is, well,
LEDs don't radiate infrared because noinfrared content coming out of LEDs.
So if they don't infrared,they're better for your
HVAC or they're better for your airconditioning system,
your Loading on the room, so it savesyou energy that way too, which they do.
(25:08):
But Watts are Watts.
So Gro does have some infrared lessinfrared than high pressure sodium because
we're much lower Watts in full spectrum,but because the infrared is less,
we can get closer to the plantsand high pressure sodium.
But our wattage use withinthe rooms is the same as Led.
(25:30):
So we provide
using a G grow fixture provides the sameimpact on the indoor grow in terms
of reducing the energythat's being expanded
within the grow room, which means yousave energy and trying to take that out.
So
(25:51):
the root reason for having to do allof the air conditioning units for indoor
grows is to take the heat out of the roomthat you're putting in with the lighting.
And so by switching from the 1000 Watt,
which is effectively 1100 Watts each,because you have the input losses as well.
(26:13):
So 1000 Watt double ended fixturesare really not 1000 Watts.
They're actually more like 1001 1000hundred,
you replace those fixtures with a fullspectrum
630 Watt fixture, you're getting allthe wattage savings on your energy bill.
You're also taking wattage out of allof your air conditioning systems, too.
(26:36):
So we are kind of a hybrid in betweenthe Led and the high pressure sodium.
The other point about bringing up infraredis that it is a benefit of LEDs
not to have any infrared outputthat's just not part of their spectrum.
(26:58):
To have infrared, which isinfrared is anything over 800 nm.
Hid does have that.
But if you're a grower who's had their setup done for multiple grows all set up
around high pressure sodium,you already have infrared in your grow.
(27:21):
And infrared does play a part in thespectrum, just like it does in sunlight.
It helps dry out the leaves.
It actually raises the leaf temperatureabout three degrees Celsius,
which activates more transpiration,enhances photosynthesis.
There are other benefits of infraredjust like it does in sunlight.
(27:41):
Right.
You already have that.
What happens sometimes is and it's verypossible growers will figure this out.
Essentially, if they do Led only.
It's possible.
You can do this.
You just have to adjust your watering
because your transpiration rateschange and your nutrients.
(28:01):
So making the adjustment from HPS to Led
is not simply a lighting change,it's a process change because plants,
if you change one of thethree critical parts, water,
lighting and nutrients,you change one of those,
you have to adjust the other ones,and that could be costly sometimes
(28:24):
for that change over for growersif they don't get it correct.
The positive thing with changing to G growsurround Hailide as compared to growing
with HPS is if you're already set upwith infrared and to grow,
we also provide it as partof our system at a lower level.
(28:44):
But it doesn't require as much change
in terms of setting up the growand your own kind of growth cycles.
Yeah.
If you were going to go from HPS over to,like Led, you have a much more effect.
There's a bigger effect.Bigger effect.
Yeah.
So you're kind of rightin this nice position.
Right between that.Yes.
(29:05):
Change, but it's not asdrastic as a drastic.
That's a better word.Yeah.
You're not going to go asmuch stress on the plant.
It's not going to cost that much.
It just seems like
the best way of describing it is a hybridbecause it is the latest technology.
You've obviously taken something and you
really advanced it to the point where itaddresses the full spectrum,
(29:30):
it addresses the UV,it addresses the infrared,
it addresses the cost,it addresses all these different things.
One of the reason I bring itup is people listen to this.
They want to hear, okay, this is great.
And they hear bits and points.
I'm pulling it aroundto what differentiates you.
And I think you've already justsaid this is that more or less.
(29:51):
It is this kind of best of both worlds.
It's kind of this hybrid of the best
of high pressure sodium and the bestof Led and getting rid of all the things
that caused the other issueswith those technologies.
Yes, I agree.
The other part that makes us different is,
again, the fixture isdesigned for horticulture.
(30:15):
So a lot of times,if you look at even some of the double
ended fixtures that are still being soldtoday, they were designed for warehouses.
So trying to get really high angle lightand light as large an area as possible.
The G grow fixture was specificallydesigned to do a five by five area.
(30:39):
That's the typical spacing within a grow.
We do not want to putany light on the walls.
We don't want to put anylight in the aisle ways.
We only want to put light on the canopy.
And so that gets you higherapplication efficiency.
Any photons that are hittingthe walls or your aisles are wasted.
They're just wasted energy.
(31:00):
So that's one aspect.
Design the fixtures specifically
for horticulture the lamps that I'vementioned before, the shroudman Hayley.
We have the doses there for that broad
spectrum, typical strap meta highlightlamps were, of course,
designed for retail lighting,where you might be in a store and shopping
(31:22):
and again, trying to optimize the metalhalides within there for the visible range
with a little bit of bleed overinto the far right and so forth.
The G grow formulation has 104%
more far red than your standardsurrounding Haylide lamp does.
(31:44):
So we've optimized that distribution
for horticulture,not for retail type lighting.
And then the other piece of that isthe patented ballast technology.
What's patented about is that high
frequency I spoke about beforethat high frequency.
So typical surround metal Haylidelamps, or arc tubes are really
(32:09):
turned off and on about 200 times persecond, which to our eye looks lit just
like a TV is on and off30 to 40 times a second.
Right.Our eyes are slow to adapt to that.
So we don't see that blinking.We don't see the face shift.
We don't see that face shift.
Right.
(32:33):
Their ability to absorb the electrons
is much faster, and absorptionrate is much faster than our eyes.
But the point is lamps are typically
in surrounding Hayley,relatively slow on and off.
So that 200 for G grow,we do a 130,000 times per second.
(32:56):
So effectively, that gives us a very nice
efficiency boost, because what's happeningwithin the arc tube is you have cathodes,
cathode and anode that'schanging every cycle.
But essentially we've gotlightning in a bottle.
We have an arc going across betweenthose two and inside of the arc tube.
(33:17):
That arc then is reallytraveling electron to electron.
But as the electrons are changing balance
shells and the particular haylides,they're emitting the photons.
But because we're doing it so fast,
that arc never extinguishes,it keeps going.
And what happens is that extends the lifeof the lamp and gives us a much nicer
(33:41):
energy boost because it's continuous flowof photons as opposed to the blinking.
And every time that blink or that 200cycles, the equipment or that lamp
feels it, because what happens isit's called electron bombardment.
But every time, 200 times a second, you'rebasically turning the lamp on and off.
(34:02):
And to start on and off,the electrons have to arc across
and they're hitting the cathodesback and forth 200 times a second.
At 130,000 cycles,that flow just stays smooth and constant.
And what happens is because the failure
mode often in arctubes is that whathappens is almost like a Wick on a candle
(34:25):
that the cathode gets worn downto the point where it touches the ceramic
or the quartz of like a metal Haylideor the ceramic of HPS and then cracks it.
And once the arctube cracks, it's done.
We've done studies in past years.
(34:47):
This technology and patent technologywas developed ten years ago.
Egro was actually
founded under Genesis Globaldeveloping this technology for
high efficiencystreet lighting and have adapted it
(35:08):
to apply it to surroundmy hayline for horticulture.
So it's a time and tested advantage.
But we get a boost out of light time,
essentially double the lamp lifeof the lower frequency operation.
And we get a boost in efficiencyand we get higher hay light activation.
(35:30):
So we get 14% more Reds
if we take the same lamp and run it at 200cycles versus under 30,014% more red
activation because that is the sweetspot for the red hay lids.
And so we see a nice boost in the spectrumthere, which we are talking about earlier.
That's a nice benefit for growers as well.
(35:50):
So a lot of differentiation in the G growapproach and based on the technology.
And we also see,I think if you conceptually, think about,
do you want to grow your plants underblinking light or continuous flow?
Of course, the sun is continuous.
(36:11):
This is what the plantis used to taking in.
And of course, full spectrum is whatthe plant actually has been evolved
to utilize all of those kindsof mechanisms for the plan itself.
And we've optimized the far read content,
as I mentioned,helps trigger faster growth.
(36:32):
We've been seeing in side by sidegrowth tests versus even regular CMH or
HPS, 30% to 40% faster growth rateswith the full spectrum
with that additional far redthan kind of standard lamps.
So we see hugeit's just the plant reacting to what it
(36:54):
wants as opposed to what is beinggiven from other lighting sources.
So we see huge advantage there.
This is good because it sounds like I'min the Pittsburgh area and with everything
with Covet, we have a lotof empty office buildings.
Yeah.
What are we going to do with allthese office buildings?
And I think I was speaking to somebody
(37:16):
and you also saw an article and it'stalking about that a lot of these office
buildings are actually couldbecome indoor growth farms.
Essentially, they actually havethe potential of doing that.
So this is good timing, right?
The potential for the indoorgrowers is there.
(37:37):
The interesting part
is that the limitation for indoor growstypically, and this is a learning over
time for me is that the limitationis not really the interior space.
The limitation is how much poweris available for the building.
So office buildings traditionally donot have a lot of power infrastructure.
(38:00):
And so again, another advantage of G grow
is this is a way for you not to haveline rows of 1100 Watt HPS units.
You get the productivityout of a 630 Watt fixture,
which gives you more opportunityto have more canopy for the grow.
(38:20):
And side by side grows versus,
with G grow, same string Ggrow versus 1100 Watt HPS.
We see 66% more productivityper Watt over HPS.
And again, that just speaksto the productivity of full spectrum and
(38:41):
being able to get the you can getto production out at lower Watts.
The other part that we hadn't talked aboutyet is that the G Grow fixture has,
we call it solar ready, but has a DCmicro grid potential, meaning it's AC.
(39:04):
We run at commercial AC voltages,but also we'll run on high voltage DC
input,which is becoming more of a thought for
architects and others who aredoing solar on buildings.
I was going to ask you about that,
the compatibility,because that was something that was kind
(39:25):
of unique in that the G Growsystem is more for.
It has that availability.
I'm not hearing that aboutthe other technologies.
Now,
is that because of the way yours wasdesigned and the ballast and all
the things in that, or is itexplain a little bit about.
Yeah, how can you do that?
(39:46):
Yeah, the ballast design is a high
frequency sinusoidal conversion process.
We do have a bridge on the input sideto take the AC and convert it to a high
frequency DC output and then changethat to the output for the lamp.
(40:16):
But that is actually a veryunique aspect because we do it very gently
in the sense of we're optimizingthe waveforms as we go.
What that means, though,
is that we have the capability to takethat high voltage DC and pass
the rectifier into our power factorcorrection circuit and just have it flow
(40:41):
right through to where we wantthe output to be of the balance.
And it was also thoughtfully done
in the sense of us thinking about, well,we've been talking with renewable energy
providers, others thinking aboutonsite battery storage,
(41:03):
because with indoor grows,it is such an energy intensive process.
It really does have a lot of focusof it's an opportunity for renewables.
And how do you manageyour draw from the grid?
It all relates to then how do we helpbe part of that process?
(41:27):
So it's very simple for growersin the sense that it works on AC.
If you have AC, that's fine.
If you do want to upgrade in the futureto have a DC micro grid where you have
solar panels outside or on the roofthat you can stack in terms of voltage
to get high voltage DC coming in to yourgrow, you can literally wire that right
(41:51):
into the fixtures as well and havethem operate in the same fashion too.
So it's still newer in the senseof building adoption and all those.
But pretty much anyone who's building newbuildings is really taking a close look
at DC micro grids because of all the solarthat's getting built in and energy
(42:14):
storage, meaning,Interestingly, all the advancements
with electric cars are really a bigbenefit to energy storage in buildings
because it's the same batteries,it's the same approach.
You can put
a couple of those vehicle batteriesin a building and all of a sudden you can
(42:38):
do your demand shaping throughout the dayso that at peak times you can reduce your
overall energy spend becauseyour tariff rates will be lower.
And all of those thingsare really incredible.
Even though the industry is starting
to make and again,nothing related to horticulture,
but the industry is startingto make trucks like electric semi.
(43:02):
The amount of batteriesin those is incredible.
The amount of energy storage,
literally you can run off of one storagebattery for one of those trucks.
If you hooked it back into a building,
you could run a 400,000 squarefoot building for about 8 hours.
(43:26):
A lot of capability there.
But that's what's going to happen is
that overall the industry willmove to those type of solutions.
And the aggro fixture, by being able to becompatible with DC, is future proof.
When you want to do that type of upgrade,
you don't have to change out all of yourlighting infrastructure to do it.
(43:48):
You can just add on whenyou're ready to do that.
That's excellent.
This has been a very interesting interviewbecause I think this has really helped.
I think for especiallygrowers that are listening.
It's one of those things that let's get
to the heart of things and let's takea look because as an outsider preparing
(44:09):
for this, it's like, wow,there's like all these different things
and there's so many different avenuesand so many different things.
It's like it's great to be able to sit
down and kind of like kind of hashedthrough all these different elements
and kind of see, this is whatreally you need to look at.
I mean, what I got out of this and I hopepeople are listening out of it, is that
(44:29):
the sun affects usdifferently than a plant.
To stop judging lights by the way you look
at them and think more like the waya plant would think or react to it.
It's not so much.
Basically it sounds like also the more you
can mimic sunlight, sunlight seemsto still be the best answer.
(44:51):
But since we're doing indoor grow,we can't really bring the sun in.
So find a light that does that.
And then I think the whole ideaof the hybrid being able to provide
the full spectrum, the UV and allthe elements and reduce the cost down.
I mean, I'm seeing this is where it's not
just one benefit,there's multiple benefits and that people
(45:13):
should really do their homeworkand really, really kind of dig into it
to be able to see more of thisinformation, be able to see that.
So I think that's a great thing.
Is there anything else that you advicethat you would give to growers?
Well, I think the other part is justencouraging folks to try the fixtures.
(45:34):
We've done our own comparativestudies side by side.
Almost all growers want to try something
before they roll it outacross our facility.
But definitely worth trying because
everyone we've interacted with who hasdone a Tesla with our fixtures has been
thrilled with it becauseit's what the plants want.
(45:56):
So if it saves you energy and it's what
the plants want, you getproductivity out of it.
I think it's a good deal.
It makes sense if you make the planthappy, you're going to get productivity
and you're going to get a high yield anda lot of good things coming out of it.
So that's great.
Well, again, thank you very much for beingon the program today and discussing this.
(46:17):
I think it's beenan excellent conversation.
Definitely a lot of informationfor people to kind of consider.
Thanks, Neil.It's a great discussion.
Appreciate it very much.
Advancements in technology for growlights Today on Small Business talks.
If growing plants indoors is a partof your business,
you already know the importance of growlighting to boost plant growth and yield.
(00:21):
You also can appreciate the costassociated with indoor grow lights,
both in capital investmentas well as operating costs.
What you may not know is the advancementin technology that can both improve plant
growth and significantlyreduce your costs.
We recently had the opportunity
to interview Jeff Null,technical advisory board member
(00:41):
for G Grow Horticulture, about growlights and innovations in the industry.
Grow lights in general.
Number one, it's about full spectrumbecause the spectrum is basically
the wavelengths ranging from everythingfrom ultraviolet to infrared.
And wavelengths basically stimulate
(01:01):
an enzyme that create growththat's photosynthesis.
But plants have to actuallyhave four growing cycles.
But the two that are most affected
by light is the vegetative or vegetativestage and the flowering stage.
Blue light affects itat the growing stage.
Red light helps it morein the flowering stage.
(01:25):
The big players in the market are thehigh pressure sodium.
I keep seeing a lot of fluorescent,
but I don't know of anyonethat actually uses fluorescent bulbs.
Usually you do see some fluorescentin the cloning stage where you don't need
the intensity, but a fullspectrum is very good.
(01:49):
So a lot of cloning stage where the plants
are only a few inches tall or less, whereyou're trying to create that germination.
They call them clone rooms,where they're trying to get
the very small clippings to roota little bit before going into beds.
(02:09):
So typically you'll see very small racks,almost like vertical farming
of fluorescence, and then the verysmall plants right underneath those.
But it's very low light outputcomparatively to a grow light.
Okay, excellent.
I think one of the things that I found wasthat it seems like there was
(02:32):
the fluorescent there's the highpressure sodium, which I.
Equate.To street lamps in industrial lighting.
That's what.
Yeah, they were invented very highintensity were used because that sounds
like it was the first bigmovement was many years ago.
And then it looks like everyone has
switched to then there's, of course,Hid, which is a variety of technologies.
(02:56):
I keep equating this to ceramic, metal,
halide, but I'm learning to evenadapt the way I'm wording that.
Right.Led are out there.
The big problem they have isthere's no standardization.
So you don't really knowwhat you're buying.
There's no standard to saythis is made for grow lights.
Right.
As I did keyword research, I saw canmy patio Led rope light rates grow.
(03:22):
Oh, my gosh.
I realize that when I do keyword research,I'm actually seeing what the market feels
about things you're actually seeing,because that's what people are typing in.
All my data is coming rightback from what Google captures.
Right.I thought that was funny.
So the big things I got out of it wasnot very intense, more red than blue,
(03:50):
doesn't have the full spectrum,does not have UV or infrared.
And it sounds, although I didn'thave anything, I can confirm this.
There seems to be this battle that
infrared are evil and they'll kill youand all that,
but they actually are needed becausethe plant needs that,
(04:11):
because it provides information that, oh,you're in the sun, you need to move or you
need to start producing this kind of thingand if you can control that,
you can actually increase the capacityof the plant or what function is doing.
And ultraviolet, I work with a lotof water treatment companies.
Ultraviolet is the greatest thingfor getting rid of mold,
(04:33):
getting rid of mildew,getting rid of certain diseases
and bacterias and evenpests and things like that.
The endpoint that I came to was that and I
tried to bring through a lot of these is,listen, there's a lot of technologies
you're going to get veryquickly overwhelmed with it.
The best thing you want is somethingthat can closely mimic the sun,
(04:55):
that has broad spectrum intensityto be able to penetrate the canopy.
Photosynthesis
red and blue light having the differentwavelengths, having the full spectrum,
the UV and the infrared,basically all these technologies,
they can all grow a plant, but they allhave varying degrees of what they can do.
(05:20):
G grow has really kind of changed thisaround because they have come up
with using as the basis kindof the ceramic metal halide,
which has a lot positivecapabilities over other methods.
But in the actual unit itself,you've got two lighting elements, right?
(05:42):
And from what I understand it basicallyyou have the blue and you have the red or
you have something that can maybe,and that's why I need your help.
So we actually do have twolamps in each fixture.
So the fixture is a 630 Watt fixture.
It's really 2315 Wattlamps or bolts that go inside of it.
(06:07):
Each of those surrounding highlight lamps.
And I call it lamp because traditionallyin the lighting industry it's not like
a table lamp you callthe bulb itself is the glass.
The lamp is the whole thing with the factthat we have two lamps in there.
They are not independent of color.
(06:28):
We do have two different
color temperatures or different,slight variations in spectrum that can be
used together, one of each if you wish,but some growers wish to have the 3000K,
some want the 4000K,which is slightly different spectrum,
both full spectrum, but we dohave two arc tubes in there.
(06:51):
Each of the lamps with the surroundinghighlight arc tubes pulls out the full
spectrum and each of the lamps is drivenby an independent, patented,
we call it ghid ballast,but high frequency ballast,
which is unique in the industryfor surrounding hillside and with our
(07:12):
patents, it's amazingly efficient, 97%,less efficient in terms of converting
the mains or the high voltage that'scoming from the wall or the panel
into what the lamps needto operate that arc tube.
(07:33):
So very efficient ballast.
We're not really seeingbecause of that efficiency.
We don't see a lot of heatgenerated from the balls itself.
The energy is really beinggenerated by the lamps.
To your earlier point about the different
spectrums of technology,we have to think about it in terms of
(07:55):
the evolution of lighting based on humanterms, because horticultural lighting has
been around,but not to the degree of research that it
has in the last several years,mostly because of cannabis,
because obviously, as humans, we'vealways had the sun to grow things, right?
(08:16):
So indoor grows are very unique.
We've had greenhouses also for millennia,you know what I mean?
It's like, yeah, but it's still the sun
and we've had supplementary lightingover the years.
But all of our spend in terms
of the lighting industry has been aroundhuman eye sensitivity curves,
(08:37):
which our eyes see between 400,which is blue, and 700, which is red,
and the green is directlyin the middle of 550.
That human eye sensitivity.
So what we see in terms of intensityof light is strongest in green,
(08:58):
which also makes sense if that's what'sreflected off of leaves in the jungle.
Everything else we see reallywell in green spectrum.
But all of our lighting has always evolvedin terms of research and development
to how do we optimizeagainst our ability to see.
The difference is we don't see UV ashumans, we don't see ultraviolet A,
(09:23):
B or C, and we also don'tsee far red, really at all.
We don't see infrared.
We might feel it a little bit,but we don't see those spectrums.
And so the plants can use those spectrums.Right?
So that's a difference.
And so when we think about a lot of even
the efficacy metrics that are used withinthe industry,
(09:47):
they're still based on efficacy metrics,essentially, that we used for our own use
about how bright is a parking lotor how bright is an office space.
And thinking through that,
one of the metricsthat are present within the industry is
trying to stop thinking that wayand think about photons.
(10:08):
And so quantification of micromoles.
Sotaking a Parmeter and reading
the intensity in terms of micro moles,it's really micromoles per meter per
second, but it's an intensity metricof how many photons are hitting it.
But because plants don't have a human eyesensitivity curve, sensitivity curve.
(10:33):
So most meters that would measurein lumens, which is a human metric,
are weighted so that they havethe humanized curve and can tell you what
the brightness would beto humans to get around that.
The metric is, for Horticultures,is micro moles.
The unfortunate part of that is it treats
all of photons as equally weightedin terms of if a photon hits the leaf
(10:57):
that's the same if it's a red or bluein terms of the metric,
the reality is just as you were mentioninga little bit earlier,
in terms of the power of high energyultraviolet to kill germs and activate
things, blue photons,they're blue to us, right?
(11:19):
They're perceived as blue to us because
our eyes understand it's a higherenergy photon than a red.
So we've developed that ability to seecolor because our eyes are sorting out
the power level of the photonsthat are hitting our eye.
A plant actually can useall that power spectrum.
So the plant doesn't seem blue and red,it sees in power coming in.
(11:45):
And so the physicists think about photonsin terms of electron boats, bolts.
So wavelength frequency.
And as with anything, if you have morepower, you've got a faster vibration.
Faster vibration is shorter wavelength.
That's why we talk in termsof wavelength for photons.
(12:06):
So 400 nanometer wavelength is actually
means it's a much shorter wavelengththan a 700 meters, which is red.
The shorter wavelength,
the higher energy photons, the blueversus the longer wavelength of red.
Point there is that if you think aboutthose in terms of actual power or energy
stored in the photons, blue is worthabout 60% more power than a red.
(12:32):
Photosynthesis to your earlier point,
in terms of how it's activated throughenzymes and how they absorb the energy,
the energy is absorbedin terms of electron volts.
So what's happening with that metric is
that we're telling ourselves,I don't care what the color of the photon
(12:53):
is, just get me as manyphotons as possible.
Which is why high pressure sodium works so
well in terms of that metric,because it's really all Orange,
but it's a heck a of lot of lowpower photons coming out.
But if you have the full spectrum,
like a G, GRA CMH or Sharon highlight,where we have the full spectrum all
(13:17):
the way down to the UVA and Ball the way into the far right.
What happens is that we are providing
on a full spectrum basis about 30%more electron volt power,
more power to create photosynthesis thanan equivalent Par reading for a high
pressure sodium lamp,because the plants think in terms but feel
(13:42):
in terms and activate chemicallyin terms of electron bolts or power.
So you need fewer blue photons to activatephotosynthesis than you do red.
And the other part is that we tend
to focus on the chlorophyl Aand chlorophyl B portions
of the peaks in those spectrumswhich we talk about in terms of red.
(14:05):
So we often say red photonsactivate photosynthesis.
But if you really look at the absorption
curves of chlorophyll,particularly the main chlorophyll A
and chlorophyll B, they havepeaks both in blue and red.
So by ignoring that portionof the spectrum, you're really not
(14:27):
optimizing how you're getting that powerto the photosynthesis, to the leaf itself.
So it's really interesting how we've kind
of created some I would call the mythswithin our own industry.
I was going to ask you about that and say,what are some of the myths?
(14:49):
Let's say I'm a new grower and I'm goingto come to you and say,
I've been told,don't use sodium vapor, don't use
what are the most common mythsthat you hear that you're facing?
A lot of it is related to Par readings
in the sense of thinking about, hey,I want to get
(15:14):
micro to as high an intensity leveland power measurement as possible.
And again, it's kind of a misnomer
in terms of, yes, you want the intensity,but a full spectrum will give you much
more opportunity to createphotosynthesis as possible.
And all of our metrics are reallythinking about the photosynthetic.
(15:40):
Parallel standsfor Photosynthetic active range.
Essentially, though Par is definedin the industry as 400 to 700,
the reality is the photobiologicallyactive range is much broader than that.
And there's another term that we don't
talk about, but there's a lotof research happening today with it.
(16:02):
It's called these are longterm photomorphogeneous.
So PHOTOMORPHIC, it's easy for you to say.
It's like super long runphotosynthesis photomorphogenesis.
But point being,
(16:24):
photosynthesis is used to activate sugarsand growth and so forth in the plant.
Photomorph,let's say, call it photomorphology
is related to triggers that youwere expressing earlier as well.
Plants can sense the level of infrared,
(16:44):
the level of UV in the spectrum,because it tells them things.
Now, do they think, no,it's just built into some
of the phytochromes and other thingsthat are not related to chlorophylls,
that are other pigments,that are absorbing other parts
of the spectrum that createphysical changes in the plants.
(17:10):
If you add UV, the responsefor the plant is different.
It's not photosynthesis,it's other aspects.
So the point there and we've done side
by side testing,testing of Ggraph highlight because
of the full spectrumat 630 Watts compared to 1000 Watt double
(17:32):
ended high pressure sodium bulb,Grove has double the amount of UVA and B
as 1000 Watt high pressure sodium,plus the advantage of having the UVA
and B, as you mentioned earlierreferred to, it's a great Germic idol.
The blue light is a great way to keep
(17:52):
UV is a great way tokeep the plant healthy and keep down
microbes, other thingsthat really shouldn't be there.
And from that perspective,
the whole spectrum is important becauseon high pressure sodium,
(18:14):
yes, it has a lot of Reds,but it has very little blue
and very obviously it hasa little UV, but not a lot.
Now, Led, on the other hand,has zero UV, zero far red, unless
you have an Led systemthat is buying far red LEDs,
(18:36):
which are relatively inefficient becauseLEDs were invented in 1962.
So they're really relativelynewer technology.
And until the 90s,
it was really only a very low level kindof indicator lamp,
type of aspect for panels and so forth,to say, hey, things are on or off,
(19:01):
very low level elimination, Reds,oranges, that kind of thing.
And blue LEDs were actually inventedin the commercialized in the early 2000s.
It's a very new technology.
And white Led is based on always a blueLed dye with a phosphor covering over top.
(19:29):
The phosphor absorbs the blue photons,and it's called Stokeshift.
But down converts into lower energy
photons that kind of createand fill out a spectrum.
All of that optimization, even since the
that's all based on and focusedentirely on human vision.
(19:53):
Again, that development for Led has always
been how do we getthe highest lumens per Watt?
A lot of folks in green.
So again, far red and UV are relativelynew developments in Led,
which means those aspects of the spectrumfor Led are not efficient yet.
(20:14):
So you will see someLed systems that do have full spectrum
that have introduced smaller quantities ofUVA output LEDs as well as far red.
But it takes a tremendous amount of Wattsfor them to generate those.
(20:37):
And it's an order magnitude less amountof UV than even high pressure sodium or
particularly surroundingthe hay light puts out.
So they're there, but they're not powerful
enough to really makethat much of a difference.
And I think you just hit on the otherthing I want to ask is people are going
(20:57):
to listen to the podcast,are going to ask is what are some
of the advantage of the Ggrowth system over that?
And I know just in my research of it cost
factors, your product seems to beoffering a nice alternative.
And let's talk about that.
Let's talk about that.
I think cost can be brokendown into two areas.
(21:19):
Is the initial I'm buying the fixturelights and all the beginning part.
But then there's also the long term.
And do people understand how much it costs
or do they get into it and thenfind out how much it costs?
No, I think it's the latter.But you're right.
So there's two costs.
There's acquisition costs and lifetimecosts or lifecycle costs.
(21:40):
So acquisition costs.
One end of the range, so to speak,
in terms of growth lightsis high pressure sodium.
They've been around for decades.
The high pressure sodiumfixtures double ended.
They can be anywherefrom $300 to $500 a piece.
(22:04):
An Led fixture to put out somewhatequivalent light output or par to a high
pressure sodium or closeand covering like a four X four area.
And often you see these fixtures kindof spread out with the LEDs and bars to be
able to cover a four foot by four footarea, typically those depending
(22:27):
on the output and depending on what typeof LEDs those are somewhere between
seven hundred and fifty dollarsto one thousand two hundred dollars.
Wow.
So they get fairly priceyand you are paying for performance.
So
you do see some differences there and it'snot just brand, it's also construction
(22:49):
number of LEDs efficiencies all thoseaspects
and I think we see more and more entranceinto the Led space in terms of design and
really the layout,but those represent the two and actually
in the middle is G grow becausewe are still utilizing.
(23:13):
The same type of Hid technologythat the large quantities of fixtures have
been developed over time usingballast and other components.
We have a specialized
ceramic lamp with a horticulturaldose in it and our patented ballast.
(23:38):
And then we have our fixture with our
highly reflective 95% plus reflectivemirror reflector on the inside,
specifically designedfor a five X five footprint.
But our price point isliterally in between the two.
So we're much more affordableacquisition cost than LEDs.
(24:02):
But the big takeaway too though,
is that at 630 Watts,we're essentially the same savings you
would see with LEDs as well, meaningthe Led systems that will cover those four
X four areas are typicallyabout 650 to 700 Watts.
(24:23):
So
compared to G grow, going with Led doesn'tactually save you additional energy.
There is also a thought within
growers or growers,because the LEDs compared to high pressure
sodium are a big savings,and so does G grow.
(24:46):
But the thought with Led is, well,
LEDs don't radiate infrared because noinfrared content coming out of LEDs.
So if they don't infrared,they're better for your
HVAC or they're better for your airconditioning system,
your Loading on the room, so it savesyou energy that way too, which they do.
(25:08):
But Watts are Watts.
So Gro does have some infrared lessinfrared than high pressure sodium because
we're much lower Watts in full spectrum,but because the infrared is less,
we can get closer to the plantsand high pressure sodium.
But our wattage use withinthe rooms is the same as Led.
(25:30):
So we provide
using a G grow fixture provides the sameimpact on the indoor grow in terms
of reducing the energythat's being expanded
within the grow room, which means yousave energy and trying to take that out.
So
(25:51):
the root reason for having to do allof the air conditioning units for indoor
grows is to take the heat out of the roomthat you're putting in with the lighting.
And so by switching from the 1000 Watt,
which is effectively 1100 Watts each,because you have the input losses as well.
(26:13):
So 1000 Watt double ended fixturesare really not 1000 Watts.
They're actually more like 1001 1000hundred,
you replace those fixtures with a fullspectrum
630 Watt fixture, you're getting allthe wattage savings on your energy bill.
You're also taking wattage out of allof your air conditioning systems, too.
(26:36):
So we are kind of a hybrid in betweenthe Led and the high pressure sodium.
The other point about bringing up infraredis that it is a benefit of LEDs
not to have any infrared outputthat's just not part of their spectrum.
(26:58):
To have infrared, which isinfrared is anything over 800 nm.
Hid does have that.
But if you're a grower who's had their setup done for multiple grows all set up
around high pressure sodium,you already have infrared in your grow.
(27:21):
And infrared does play a part in thespectrum, just like it does in sunlight.
It helps dry out the leaves.
It actually raises the leaf temperatureabout three degrees Celsius,
which activates more transpiration,enhances photosynthesis.
There are other benefits of infraredjust like it does in sunlight.
(27:41):
Right.
You already have that.
What happens sometimes is and it's verypossible growers will figure this out.
Essentially, if they do Led only.
It's possible.
You can do this.
You just have to adjust your watering
because your transpiration rateschange and your nutrients.
(28:01):
So making the adjustment from HPS to Led
is not simply a lighting change,it's a process change because plants,
if you change one of thethree critical parts, water,
lighting and nutrients,you change one of those,
you have to adjust the other ones,and that could be costly sometimes
(28:24):
for that change over for growersif they don't get it correct.
The positive thing with changing to G growsurround Hailide as compared to growing
with HPS is if you're already set upwith infrared and to grow,
we also provide it as partof our system at a lower level.
(28:44):
But it doesn't require as much change
in terms of setting up the growand your own kind of growth cycles.
Yeah.
If you were going to go from HPS over to,like Led, you have a much more effect.
There's a bigger effect.Bigger effect.
Yeah.
So you're kind of rightin this nice position.
Right between that.Yes.
(29:05):
Change, but it's not asdrastic as a drastic.
That's a better word.Yeah.
You're not going to go asmuch stress on the plant.
It's not going to cost that much.
It just seems like
the best way of describing it is a hybridbecause it is the latest technology.
You've obviously taken something and you
really advanced it to the point where itaddresses the full spectrum,
(29:30):
it addresses the UV,it addresses the infrared,
it addresses the cost,it addresses all these different things.
One of the reason I bring itup is people listen to this.
They want to hear, okay, this is great.
And they hear bits and points.
I'm pulling it aroundto what differentiates you.
And I think you've already justsaid this is that more or less.
(29:51):
It is this kind of best of both worlds.
It's kind of this hybrid of the best
of high pressure sodium and the bestof Led and getting rid of all the things
that caused the other issueswith those technologies.
Yes, I agree.
The other part that makes us different is,
again, the fixture isdesigned for horticulture.
(30:15):
So a lot of times,if you look at even some of the double
ended fixtures that are still being soldtoday, they were designed for warehouses.
So trying to get really high angle lightand light as large an area as possible.
The G grow fixture was specificallydesigned to do a five by five area.
(30:39):
That's the typical spacing within a grow.
We do not want to putany light on the walls.
We don't want to put anylight in the aisle ways.
We only want to put light on the canopy.
And so that gets you higherapplication efficiency.
Any photons that are hittingthe walls or your aisles are wasted.
They're just wasted energy.
(31:00):
So that's one aspect.
Design the fixtures specifically
for horticulture the lamps that I'vementioned before, the shroudman Hayley.
We have the doses there for that broad
spectrum, typical strap meta highlightlamps were, of course,
designed for retail lighting,where you might be in a store and shopping
(31:22):
and again, trying to optimize the metalhalides within there for the visible range
with a little bit of bleed overinto the far right and so forth.
The G grow formulation has 104%
more far red than your standardsurrounding Haylide lamp does.
(31:44):
So we've optimized that distribution
for horticulture,not for retail type lighting.
And then the other piece of that isthe patented ballast technology.
What's patented about is that high
frequency I spoke about beforethat high frequency.
So typical surround metal Haylidelamps, or arc tubes are really
(32:09):
turned off and on about 200 times persecond, which to our eye looks lit just
like a TV is on and off30 to 40 times a second.
Right.Our eyes are slow to adapt to that.
So we don't see that blinking.We don't see the face shift.
We don't see that face shift.
Right.
(32:33):
Their ability to absorb the electrons
is much faster, and absorptionrate is much faster than our eyes.
But the point is lamps are typically
in surrounding Hayley,relatively slow on and off.
So that 200 for G grow,we do a 130,000 times per second.
(32:56):
So effectively, that gives us a very nice
efficiency boost, because what's happeningwithin the arc tube is you have cathodes,
cathode and anode that'schanging every cycle.
But essentially we've gotlightning in a bottle.
We have an arc going across betweenthose two and inside of the arc tube.
(33:17):
That arc then is reallytraveling electron to electron.
But as the electrons are changing balance
shells and the particular haylides,they're emitting the photons.
But because we're doing it so fast,
that arc never extinguishes,it keeps going.
And what happens is that extends the lifeof the lamp and gives us a much nicer
(33:41):
energy boost because it's continuous flowof photons as opposed to the blinking.
And every time that blink or that 200cycles, the equipment or that lamp
feels it, because what happens isit's called electron bombardment.
But every time, 200 times a second, you'rebasically turning the lamp on and off.
(34:02):
And to start on and off,the electrons have to arc across
and they're hitting the cathodesback and forth 200 times a second.
At 130,000 cycles,that flow just stays smooth and constant.
And what happens is because the failure
mode often in arctubes is that whathappens is almost like a Wick on a candle
(34:25):
that the cathode gets worn downto the point where it touches the ceramic
or the quartz of like a metal Haylideor the ceramic of HPS and then cracks it.
And once the arctube cracks, it's done.
We've done studies in past years.
(34:47):
This technology and patent technologywas developed ten years ago.
Egro was actually
founded under Genesis Globaldeveloping this technology for
high efficiencystreet lighting and have adapted it
(35:08):
to apply it to surroundmy hayline for horticulture.
So it's a time and tested advantage.
But we get a boost out of light time,
essentially double the lamp lifeof the lower frequency operation.
And we get a boost in efficiencyand we get higher hay light activation.
(35:30):
So we get 14% more Reds
if we take the same lamp and run it at 200cycles versus under 30,014% more red
activation because that is the sweetspot for the red hay lids.
And so we see a nice boost in the spectrumthere, which we are talking about earlier.
That's a nice benefit for growers as well.
(35:50):
So a lot of differentiation in the G growapproach and based on the technology.
And we also see,I think if you conceptually, think about,
do you want to grow your plants underblinking light or continuous flow?
Of course, the sun is continuous.
(36:11):
This is what the plantis used to taking in.
And of course, full spectrum is whatthe plant actually has been evolved
to utilize all of those kindsof mechanisms for the plan itself.
And we've optimized the far read content,
as I mentioned,helps trigger faster growth.
(36:32):
We've been seeing in side by sidegrowth tests versus even regular CMH or
HPS, 30% to 40% faster growth rateswith the full spectrum
with that additional far redthan kind of standard lamps.
So we see hugeit's just the plant reacting to what it
(36:54):
wants as opposed to what is beinggiven from other lighting sources.
So we see huge advantage there.
This is good because it sounds like I'min the Pittsburgh area and with everything
with Covet, we have a lotof empty office buildings.
Yeah.
What are we going to do with allthese office buildings?
And I think I was speaking to somebody
(37:16):
and you also saw an article and it'stalking about that a lot of these office
buildings are actually couldbecome indoor growth farms.
Essentially, they actually havethe potential of doing that.
So this is good timing, right?
The potential for the indoorgrowers is there.
(37:37):
The interesting part
is that the limitation for indoor growstypically, and this is a learning over
time for me is that the limitationis not really the interior space.
The limitation is how much poweris available for the building.
So office buildings traditionally donot have a lot of power infrastructure.
(38:00):
And so again, another advantage of G grow
is this is a way for you not to haveline rows of 1100 Watt HPS units.
You get the productivityout of a 630 Watt fixture,
which gives you more opportunityto have more canopy for the grow.
(38:20):
And side by side grows versus,
with G grow, same string Ggrow versus 1100 Watt HPS.
We see 66% more productivityper Watt over HPS.
And again, that just speaksto the productivity of full spectrum and
(38:41):
being able to get the you can getto production out at lower Watts.
The other part that we hadn't talked aboutyet is that the G Grow fixture has,
we call it solar ready, but has a DCmicro grid potential, meaning it's AC.
(39:04):
We run at commercial AC voltages,but also we'll run on high voltage DC
input,which is becoming more of a thought for
architects and others who aredoing solar on buildings.
I was going to ask you about that,
the compatibility,because that was something that was kind
(39:25):
of unique in that the G Growsystem is more for.
It has that availability.
I'm not hearing that aboutthe other technologies.
Now,
is that because of the way yours wasdesigned and the ballast and all
the things in that, or is itexplain a little bit about.
Yeah, how can you do that?
(39:46):
Yeah, the ballast design is a high
frequency sinusoidal conversion process.
We do have a bridge on the input sideto take the AC and convert it to a high
frequency DC output and then changethat to the output for the lamp.
(40:16):
But that is actually a veryunique aspect because we do it very gently
in the sense of we're optimizingthe waveforms as we go.
What that means, though,
is that we have the capability to takethat high voltage DC and pass
the rectifier into our power factorcorrection circuit and just have it flow
(40:41):
right through to where we wantthe output to be of the balance.
And it was also thoughtfully done
in the sense of us thinking about, well,we've been talking with renewable energy
providers, others thinking aboutonsite battery storage,
(41:03):
because with indoor grows,it is such an energy intensive process.
It really does have a lot of focusof it's an opportunity for renewables.
And how do you manageyour draw from the grid?
It all relates to then how do we helpbe part of that process?
(41:27):
So it's very simple for growersin the sense that it works on AC.
If you have AC, that's fine.
If you do want to upgrade in the futureto have a DC micro grid where you have
solar panels outside or on the roofthat you can stack in terms of voltage
to get high voltage DC coming in to yourgrow, you can literally wire that right
(41:51):
into the fixtures as well and havethem operate in the same fashion too.
So it's still newer in the senseof building adoption and all those.
But pretty much anyone who's building newbuildings is really taking a close look
at DC micro grids because of all the solarthat's getting built in and energy
(42:14):
storage, meaning,Interestingly, all the advancements
with electric cars are really a bigbenefit to energy storage in buildings
because it's the same batteries,it's the same approach.
You can put
a couple of those vehicle batteriesin a building and all of a sudden you can
(42:38):
do your demand shaping throughout the dayso that at peak times you can reduce your
overall energy spend becauseyour tariff rates will be lower.
And all of those thingsare really incredible.
Even though the industry is starting
to make and again,nothing related to horticulture,
but the industry is startingto make trucks like electric semi.
(43:02):
The amount of batteriesin those is incredible.
The amount of energy storage,
literally you can run off of one storagebattery for one of those trucks.
If you hooked it back into a building,
you could run a 400,000 squarefoot building for about 8 hours.
(43:26):
A lot of capability there.
But that's what's going to happen is
that overall the industry willmove to those type of solutions.
And the aggro fixture, by being able to becompatible with DC, is future proof.
When you want to do that type of upgrade,
you don't have to change out all of yourlighting infrastructure to do it.
(43:48):
You can just add on whenyou're ready to do that.
That's excellent.
This has been a very interesting interviewbecause I think this has really helped.
I think for especiallygrowers that are listening.
It's one of those things that let's get
to the heart of things and let's takea look because as an outsider preparing
(44:09):
for this, it's like, wow,there's like all these different things
and there's so many different avenuesand so many different things.
It's like it's great to be able to sit
down and kind of like kind of hashedthrough all these different elements
and kind of see, this is whatreally you need to look at.
I mean, what I got out of this and I hopepeople are listening out of it, is that
(44:29):
the sun affects usdifferently than a plant.
To stop judging lights by the way you look
at them and think more like the waya plant would think or react to it.
It's not so much.
Basically it sounds like also the more you
can mimic sunlight, sunlight seemsto still be the best answer.
(44:51):
But since we're doing indoor grow,we can't really bring the sun in.
So find a light that does that.
And then I think the whole ideaof the hybrid being able to provide
the full spectrum, the UV and allthe elements and reduce the cost down.
I mean, I'm seeing this is where it's not
just one benefit,there's multiple benefits and that people
(45:13):
should really do their homeworkand really, really kind of dig into it
to be able to see more of thisinformation, be able to see that.
So I think that's a great thing.
Is there anything else that you advicethat you would give to growers?
Well, I think the other part is justencouraging folks to try the fixtures.
(45:34):
We've done our own comparativestudies side by side.
Almost all growers want to try something
before they roll it outacross our facility.
But definitely worth trying because
everyone we've interacted with who hasdone a Tesla with our fixtures has been
thrilled with it becauseit's what the plants want.
(45:56):
So if it saves you energy and it's what
the plants want, you getproductivity out of it.
I think it's a good deal.
It makes sense if you make the planthappy, you're going to get productivity
and you're going to get a high yield anda lot of good things coming out of it.
So that's great.
Well, again, thank you very much for beingon the program today and discussing this.
(46:17):
I think it's beenan excellent conversation.
Definitely a lot of informationfor people to kind of consider.
Thanks, Neil.It's a great discussion.
Appreciate it very much.
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