June 24, 2025 • 23 mins
In this episode, the hosts continue their conversation with Chris Marchand, the creator of the Wall of Silence podcast that highlights stories of abuse within the Anglican Church of North America (ACNA). The episode begins with powerful words from Kelly Goewey, criticizing the church's handling of abuse allegations. The discussion explores the complexities and failures of institutional processes, the psychological impact on victims and whistleblowers, and the broader cultural issues within the church. Chris shares his personal struggles, the backlash he has faced, and his ongoing commitment to advocating for abuse survivors. This candid conversation aims to spark critical reflection within religious communities about how they handle abuse
allegations and support victims.
00:00 Introduction: What Would Jesus Do?
01:03 The Complexity of ACNA Processes
01:50 Personal Experience with Institutional Inaction
02:24 The Solar System Analogy
02:55 Jesus' Teachings and ACNA's Failures
03:35 Introduction to the Podcast and Chris Marchand
04:08 Understanding Victims and Church Inaction
06:12 The Culture Wars in the Church
07:40 The Psychology of Church Reactions
08:55 Chris Marchand's Personal Struggles
12:33 The Role of Media and Public Perception
14:58 ACNA Too: Goals and Misconceptions
17:51 Chris Marchand's Faith and Final Thoughts
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:25):
Jesus wouldn't ask a real estatelawyer for advice if he were
earnestly seeking clarity aboutlaws surrounding child sexual abuse.
Jesus would never tell a mother toreconcile with a violent predator so
that the church doesn't lose faith.
(00:47):
Jesus didn't call on Roman soldiers toprevent people from asking him questions.
Jesus doesn't look at Joannaand say that she doesn't matter
because she's not a church member.
I keep hearing how complexthe ACNA processes are.
(01:08):
So complicated that they can'tfulfill promises to reimburse
a family for counseling or hirea safe, impartial, third party
investigative firm in the first place.
So complicated that they can't seta date for a trial in nine months.
Or be transparent about Bishop Ruck'sattempts to delay or derail the trial
(01:29):
process despite his public professionsof gratitude and eagerness to comply.
So complicated that they can'tinhibit Bishop Ruck despite two
separate presentments that haveshown there are reasonable grounds
to put the accused to trial.
Or even explain why theyhaven't inhibited him.
(01:50):
After the professor who abused me wasreported to university officials, I waited
months without hearing anything but it'scomplicated and we're working on it.
The day the dean received a letterfrom my parents asking why the school
still hadn't taken action, she hadher assistant walking around the
campus to find me and pull me outof class for an emergency meeting.
(02:15):
It's as complicated as they want it to be.
The process is as slow astheir priorities make it.
It's a heavy burden.
The solar system is complex.
Natural satellites revolving whilethey orbit the planets, planets
revolving while they orbit the sun.
The complexity of the movementsof the planets and their moons is
(02:37):
inexplicable without the burningmass of the sun at the center.
The complexity of the laws andpolity of the ACNA is worse than
meaningless if it serves to inhibitrather than facilitate the body's call
to be the hands and feet of Christ.
In every encounter of his life recordedin scripture, Jesus affirms the dignity
(03:00):
of those with whom he interacts.
He listens to them.
He tells the truth.
He unapologetically clears God's templeof those who misuse their power to
exploit and abuse vulnerable people.
He doesn't pull punches tosave face or protect the
interests of established power.
(03:21):
God has more for survivors,for anyone, ACNA have shown
they are inclined to offer.
Those are the powerful words ofKelly Goewey and with the gracious
permission of Chris Marchand andthe wall of silence podcast, we
(03:43):
have included them in this podcast.
The second part of the father ChrisMarchand interview that we did a couple
of weeks ago in our first episode,we talked about why Chris started the
podcast and the importance of the podcast.
And we're going to finish up with howit's affected the people involved,
(04:03):
Chris, and the ACNA in general.
I know many of you are probably notChristians, and that's okay, but
I think that the idea of trying tounderstand victims is important.
It doesn't mean we have to believeeverything that people tell us, but
it does mean that we need to respectpeople, that we need to trust The
process, and then we need to listento victims when they speak up.
(04:27):
One of the main reasons we want to dothis show with Chris Marchand is we've
heard so many churches or been involvedin so many churches that have had the
same issues and have done nothing.
It's like the old Mike Tyson quote.
Everybody's got a plan untilthey get punched in the mouth.
The question we want toask is, what's the plan?
What are we going to do whenthings aren't going well?
(04:48):
It's pretty easy to do everythingright when things are going well.
We wanted to push into that wewanted to push into that to maybe
start a conversation where churchescan ask those questions What
do we do when things go wrong?
Not when everything's going, right?
So we hope that you enjoy part two ofthis show Please email us if you have
(05:10):
any questions or thoughts or concerns,we'd love to hear from you So email us
let us know without further ado Here isthe second part of the Chris Marchand
interview on this article podcast ChrisThe secondary question to this is I get
why the pre I don't respect very manypastoral people and I've lost it Here we
go Maybe that's where I got to pray thatthrough because of this very stuff But
(05:33):
the part and I think it was in episode2 and I can't remember who it was,
but she said You know, I thought therewould be 30 percent of the people that
would support us, but it wasn't even 30.
That's the part to me that's shockingis that how few of the lay people,
how few of the congregants, thepeople that are actually in the pews
don't want to hear it, why don'tthey, why don't they want to hear it?
Why don't they come out in at least say,Hey, I've noticed you weren't at church.
(05:57):
The woman that just was onthe show, she was crying.
She's saying, I left this church.
She had nothing to do with this,but she left because she felt
so viscerally Pained about itbecause she was an abuse survivor.
Why aren't people doing anything?
Okay.
I would argue that a lot of this, agood portion of it comes down to these
(06:18):
culture wars that we have in the church.
Often.
I did have somebody say to me.
In the midst of many of conversationsthat I had, they said, you know,
sometimes, some of these women arebringing stuff up because they don't
ordain women to the priesthood.
And so they just have a bone to pick.
And so what I mean when I say that is allthese people are just, and I apologize.
(06:40):
I'm going to say a four letter word here.
They're just woke.
Um, and, and so I haven't reallybeen called woke online yet.
And I'm actually kind of surprised.
But what happens is.
Is parishioners see Oh, all ofthose really progressive folk.
They're just pushing this in our face.
They're part of the wokeleft, the fascistic left or
(07:02):
whatever they want to be called.
It's really interesting toobserve how that happens.
And I, so I think that then in the midstof that culture war, the regular church
goer and the priests, we kind of say,yeah, we don't want to be part of that.
I don't want to be perceived as that too.
So there's this fear of being perceiveda certain way too, in a public sphere.
But you talk about she, when gooey showsup at church in the narthex, people
(07:26):
were walking by her and like givingher, I've seen that very thing happen
in a lot of churches where someonewill raise a question about something
that's going on that they disagree with.
And all of a sudden it's likethere weren't a scarlet letter.
They're shunned.
What is the, I mean, I'm askingyou to play a doctor on this
podcast today, Chris, but whatdo you think is the psychology?
(07:46):
I know the fear part, butwhat is the psychology of.
Anger towards these people.
Yeah, that's a good question I wish oneof them were here with me now because
they've experienced it and I guess I'veexperienced it a little bit It's funny.
I'm a literature teacher.
I teach online classes.
(08:06):
I teach the scarlet letter I havea, an episode coming up where I
use the metaphor of the ScarletLetter where I need to I, it's not
recorded yet, but boy I don't know.
I will say this.
I am not a president Trump person at all.
I'm the opposite.
(08:27):
And so I feel like I would struggleif someone walked into a church, my
church with the MAGA hat on, I thinkit's good to do self reflection.
What are we all capable of?
I'm capable of being takenover by my own fears.
One of my biggest things in allof this is my own father issues.
And so now I've upset my bishop who issupposed to be my spiritual father and
(08:51):
the shame or the fear that I'm beingrejected, or I'm going to be punished.
I guess I'm just the past few monthsas I've been like struggling with
should I return the podcast orshould I just stop it all together?
I've been wrestling with myown weaknesses the whole time.
I had another priest.
I'm sorry if I'm goingdifferent directions here.
(09:12):
But in a meeting that I had withmy bishop, a priest asked me if I
was just Doing this for my own ego.
And am I doing this because it's about meand I've wrestled with that as an artist,
I've had to wrestle with that becauseyeah, I want to make a great podcast.
I want to tell a great story.
I want to do the best job that I can do.
Yeah.
So there is pride involvedwith this and I don't know.
(09:35):
I, I your question is a great one.
And I guess maybe what I would comeback to is the power of groupthink and
in so many of these cultures, there is.
This need to think all the same and partof me gets that because I believe in
saying the Apostles Creed and you know,it's like, yeah, you should, if you're
(09:56):
coming to the church, you need to confessthe Apostles Creed and the scriptures,
but there's another element to group thinkthat it becomes pretty dysfunctional.
Chris.
One of the things I think you alsobring up a lot is like, you just
mentioned it a second ago whatis the human being capable of?
And you talk about this woman, like,how could she get raped at 39 years old?
How would, how did shepossibly let that happen?
(10:18):
Or, how, by the way, when you say thatwe don't know we're capable as human
beings, I know, Chris, for a fact, ThatI'm not going to host a Dungeons and
Dragons game tonight and put a Mickeyin some person's drink and rape her.
I'm not going to do that.
But it is this idea of whatare we as human beings?
We don't know until we put ourselves inthat situation what we're capable of.
(10:42):
You know what?
Editing through the podcasthas been really hard.
And I've had to sit with that.
And there are times whereI interact with Joanna.
I've talked with her a coupleof times, interview wise.
And then there's just, , online,back and forth, you know, words.
I, I, there's a fear in me that I couldbecome like this sociopath rapist to her
(11:09):
or that she would perceive me that way.
And so, you know, and I don'tthink I'm that person at all, but
I don't know as a man as a, I'ma, I'm six, four, I'm a large man.
I don't know.
Maybe it's good for us to think, you knowwhat, this is the world that we live in.
As men, we have to take responsibilityfor, not for other people's behaviors,
(11:30):
but at least for ourselves and how othersmight perceive us and how we come across.
Yeah.
I don't know.
In the midst of editing these episodes,I have just found myself heavy.
I wouldn't call it depression,but it like sits with me for days.
Oh yeah.
I listened to it and I've got depression.
Yeah.
Let me, I just like, hold on real quick.
I, I work and I,
(11:51):
Yeah.
When I leave work, I walk homefor 35 minutes at Brandon's.
Like, you got to listen to this podcast.
It's my downtime is to , just walkhome and I put on your podcast.
and it's like, Oh my God,this is not easy listening.
This is not helping me unwind.
It is heavy.
Yes.
So do you guys think that all I doin my spare time is I just listen
to other church abuse podcasts?
(12:13):
Well, wait a second.
That's a segue into what Larry's saying,because I want to make sure those
listening, because we've talked aboutwe're going to have Chris Marchand on.
You have this amazing podcast.
It's been sort of equated to thatchristianity today marcelle podcast
Although you say very early on thatit's about this show is about victims
That we want to tell the victim storyand they didn't necessarily do that.
(12:33):
i've enjoyed that podcast Nocriticism of that My question is
where are the religious publications?
Like Christianity Today.
I know that religious news network didan article on the show It talked about
the fact that you're coming back Whereare the voices of Christianity today,
or not Christianity, but Christianityin general, the public, you know, I'm
saying that whatever the intelligentsia,whatever, where are those voices in terms
(12:57):
of this podcast or in general abuse?
Where are they?
Oh, in general abuse.
Are you talking aboutlike the American church?
Are you talking about publications?
No, I'm talking about there are differentChristian publications that write stuff,
or even conservative leaning publications.
And where are, why are they notsaying, what about the victims?
(13:19):
Why aren't we listening to The Wall ofSilence or whatever else is out there?
Why aren't they raising the alarm?
That's a good question.
I don't know.
I, I, uh, I did an interview what wasit, last week or the week before with
Religion News Service, and CatherinePost is the journalist, and she's been
covering this for a few years now.
(13:40):
And I would say she's beenlifting up those stories.
At the same time, I, I don't know.
It's actually a really good question.
I, maybe I would, I would say this.
I don't know how you guys feel.
So many of my online people that we tryto let people know about what we're doing.
I actually, there's a musician thatI follow, and he's an older guy.
(14:02):
His name is Charlie Peacock.
And he's even saying the samething, is, is we don't know
how to reach people anymore.
So I think there's something thathappened in the last five years where
We're all throwing our stuff up theredoing the best that we can putting out
quality material But everything is prettyfractured and split into different groups.
And there's people that Don't know aboutdifferent artists or different podcasts.
(14:24):
So I don't know.
I mean, I will say this many many moreconservative people No longer would give
a rip if christianity today as a magazineor a publication released anything They
could have a podcast and I doubt thatmany ACNA people, Anglican Church of North
America people would even listen to it.
They wouldn't care.
(14:44):
It's just another woke podcast.
So, I don't know.
I guess I, that, that's, I thinkwe're in a new era that many of us in
media, we don't, we haven't figuredit out yet right now what's going on.
You do an incredible job in thewall of silence of explaining why
you're doing what you're doing.
So my question is about theACNA 2, it's T O O, right?
This group of people that have started,because I called a friend of mine.
(15:06):
Who's at Hillsdale college.
If you're familiar with Hillsdalecollege, it's pretty conserved.
He's in the ACNA.
He's uber conservative.
I love him.
He's one of my best friends, but I askedhim, I said, Hey, I've listened to this
guy be listening to this wall of science.
He's like, Oh, that's that ACNA two thing.
Isn't it?
I'm like, what are you talking?
I'd never heard of it.
He's like, they're just disgruntled.
People from the Anglican church.
I'm like disgruntled.
It sounds like they're talkingabout something serious.
(15:27):
What is the ACNA to?
Because that is the heart of this.
And what is their goal?
What is their goal or purpose?
I should say not goal, but theirgoal and purpose is to advocate for
abuse survivors and for reformingand making change within the ACNA.
(15:49):
And they've.
worked really, really hard to, theycontact church leaders, people come
to them wanting to tell their stories.
I mean, who they are, you know, they'repeople that I've gotten to know.
They're people that I've gottento know that they're either
used to be in ACNA churches.
Some of them associated with, a churchof the resurrection, others not,
(16:13):
but they've come together to raiseawareness within our own denomination
about what we can do to change things.
Now, one thing that I would point youto is, I can't remember when this came
out, it might have been 2022, maybeit was 2021, they had an open letter
Archbishop Foley, who was our formerarchbishop, and in it, they had all of
(16:37):
their requests of what they would want.
And so, if you're asking me, youknow, hey, what do they want?
I was like, well, let's go.
It's complicated, right?
It's long.
Let's go back and read that letter.
And one of the ways that that letter wasportrayed, by the way, was Those were
talked about as if they were demands.
Look at what ACNA 2 is demanding.
(16:57):
And, and it's interestingwhat your friend says.
Disgruntled.
Isn't that an interesting wayof just brushing someone aside?
It's kind of similar to say this oneperson that I talked to said, Aren't
they just, some of these people justmad because they don't ordain women.
It's like, Like, life is complicated.
There might be a lot of reasons, butwhy are you pushing under the rug the
(17:21):
fact that they're raising up abuse andtrying to bring reform into the church
by simply calling them disgruntled.
I'm curious about that.
Why, why, why take that approach?
I mean, your, your friend goesto Hillsdale or he teaches there.
I mean, there's perceptionsof people on the right.
Does he want to be treatedthat way as just somebody?
Should I raise up every complainthe has against the Democratic Party
(17:42):
is, yeah, you're just disgruntled.
Does he want to be treated that way?
I don't think he does.
Yeah, that's a great, great question.
Chris, can I ask you onelast question as we head out?
I want to know if thishas affected your faith.
I'm curious about you, listening to whatLarry said, it's not easy to listen to.
We commend you, but has itaffected your faith at all?
Yeah it is very much something I'vewrestled with it is something that
(18:05):
I ask myself relatively frequently,like, am I still a Christian?
Do I still want to be a part of this?
Do I believe in the Church?
And when I think of the Church, I think ofit not just this institution, but it is,
we are the gathered believers you know, inthe Bible, it's called the body of Christ,
and It has certainly rattled my faith.
It kind of makes me want to gooff and just be a monk in a cave
(18:27):
in the wilderness somewhere.
And, because I don't know if I candeal with human institutions anymore.
I have another friend, he doeslike an internet radio show.
And I've been coming up with a playlistof, here's the name of the list.
This literally is, so it'san interesting question.
It's songs that let meknow I'm still a Christian.
It's like a playlist.
(18:48):
And I was like, Hey, can I come andbe a guest DJ on your internet thing?
And I can do my little playlist and stuff.
So yes, I mean this is, this hasrattled me and I kind of feel like
when this actually happened, theAC and a two people, when I was
silenced, they said, Chris, you'reone of us now is what they said.
Because now you have to deal with.
(19:10):
Your own spiritual manipulationthat's happened to you.
So it's all very disorienting is what I'mtrying to say And I feel I need to get
some therapy sessions in with my counselorBecause there's some stuff I have to
work through just emotionally Let alonespiritually so I guess i'm still very
much in the midst of it, but i'm stillfollowing jesus Well, I'm speechless.
(19:31):
This is the longest we've ever gone on aSmarticle podcast and it is well deserved.
Chris Marchand, the podcast, onceagain, this is not easy listening,
but it should be required listening.
It is the Wall of Silence podcast.
Chris Marchand, thank you for taking yourtime and thank you for the mission of
your life and the struggle that we havebeen to be able to be a part of it today.
(19:53):
Thank you so much, Chris.
Thank you.
Appreciate you both taking the time.
Jesus wouldn't ask a real estatelawyer for advice if he were
earnestly seeking clarity aboutlaws surrounding child sexual abuse.
Jesus would never tell a mother toreconcile with a violent predator so
that the church doesn't lose faith.
(00:47):
Jesus didn't call on Roman soldiers toprevent people from asking him questions.
Jesus doesn't look at Joannaand say that she doesn't matter
because she's not a church member.
I keep hearing how complexthe ACNA processes are.
(01:08):
So complicated that they can'tfulfill promises to reimburse
a family for counseling or hirea safe, impartial, third party
investigative firm in the first place.
So complicated that they can't seta date for a trial in nine months.
Or be transparent about Bishop Ruck'sattempts to delay or derail the trial
(01:29):
process despite his public professionsof gratitude and eagerness to comply.
So complicated that they can'tinhibit Bishop Ruck despite two
separate presentments that haveshown there are reasonable grounds
to put the accused to trial.
Or even explain why theyhaven't inhibited him.
(01:50):
After the professor who abused me wasreported to university officials, I waited
months without hearing anything but it'scomplicated and we're working on it.
The day the dean received a letterfrom my parents asking why the school
still hadn't taken action, she hadher assistant walking around the
campus to find me and pull me outof class for an emergency meeting.
(02:15):
It's as complicated as they want it to be.
The process is as slow astheir priorities make it.
It's a heavy burden.
The solar system is complex.
Natural satellites revolving whilethey orbit the planets, planets
revolving while they orbit the sun.
The complexity of the movementsof the planets and their moons is
(02:37):
inexplicable without the burningmass of the sun at the center.
The complexity of the laws andpolity of the ACNA is worse than
meaningless if it serves to inhibitrather than facilitate the body's call
to be the hands and feet of Christ.
In every encounter of his life recordedin scripture, Jesus affirms the dignity
(03:00):
of those with whom he interacts.
He listens to them.
He tells the truth.
He unapologetically clears God's templeof those who misuse their power to
exploit and abuse vulnerable people.
He doesn't pull punches tosave face or protect the
interests of established power.
(03:21):
God has more for survivors,for anyone, ACNA have shown
they are inclined to offer.
Those are the powerful words ofKelly Goewey and with the gracious
permission of Chris Marchand andthe wall of silence podcast, we
(03:43):
have included them in this podcast.
The second part of the father ChrisMarchand interview that we did a couple
of weeks ago in our first episode,we talked about why Chris started the
podcast and the importance of the podcast.
And we're going to finish up with howit's affected the people involved,
(04:03):
Chris, and the ACNA in general.
I know many of you are probably notChristians, and that's okay, but
I think that the idea of trying tounderstand victims is important.
It doesn't mean we have to believeeverything that people tell us, but
it does mean that we need to respectpeople, that we need to trust The
process, and then we need to listento victims when they speak up.
(04:27):
One of the main reasons we want to dothis show with Chris Marchand is we've
heard so many churches or been involvedin so many churches that have had the
same issues and have done nothing.
It's like the old Mike Tyson quote.
Everybody's got a plan untilthey get punched in the mouth.
The question we want toask is, what's the plan?
What are we going to do whenthings aren't going well?
(04:48):
It's pretty easy to do everythingright when things are going well.
We wanted to push into that wewanted to push into that to maybe
start a conversation where churchescan ask those questions What
do we do when things go wrong?
Not when everything's going, right?
So we hope that you enjoy part two ofthis show Please email us if you have
(05:10):
any questions or thoughts or concerns,we'd love to hear from you So email us
let us know without further ado Here isthe second part of the Chris Marchand
interview on this article podcast ChrisThe secondary question to this is I get
why the pre I don't respect very manypastoral people and I've lost it Here we
go Maybe that's where I got to pray thatthrough because of this very stuff But
(05:33):
the part and I think it was in episode2 and I can't remember who it was,
but she said You know, I thought therewould be 30 percent of the people that
would support us, but it wasn't even 30.
That's the part to me that's shockingis that how few of the lay people,
how few of the congregants, thepeople that are actually in the pews
don't want to hear it, why don'tthey, why don't they want to hear it?
Why don't they come out in at least say,Hey, I've noticed you weren't at church.
(05:57):
The woman that just was onthe show, she was crying.
She's saying, I left this church.
She had nothing to do with this,but she left because she felt
so viscerally Pained about itbecause she was an abuse survivor.
Why aren't people doing anything?
Okay.
I would argue that a lot of this, agood portion of it comes down to these
(06:18):
culture wars that we have in the church.
Often.
I did have somebody say to me.
In the midst of many of conversationsthat I had, they said, you know,
sometimes, some of these women arebringing stuff up because they don't
ordain women to the priesthood.
And so they just have a bone to pick.
And so what I mean when I say that is allthese people are just, and I apologize.
(06:40):
I'm going to say a four letter word here.
They're just woke.
Um, and, and so I haven't reallybeen called woke online yet.
And I'm actually kind of surprised.
But what happens is.
Is parishioners see Oh, all ofthose really progressive folk.
They're just pushing this in our face.
They're part of the wokeleft, the fascistic left or
(07:02):
whatever they want to be called.
It's really interesting toobserve how that happens.
And I, so I think that then in the midstof that culture war, the regular church
goer and the priests, we kind of say,yeah, we don't want to be part of that.
I don't want to be perceived as that too.
So there's this fear of being perceiveda certain way too, in a public sphere.
But you talk about she, when gooey showsup at church in the narthex, people
(07:26):
were walking by her and like givingher, I've seen that very thing happen
in a lot of churches where someonewill raise a question about something
that's going on that they disagree with.
And all of a sudden it's likethere weren't a scarlet letter.
They're shunned.
What is the, I mean, I'm askingyou to play a doctor on this
podcast today, Chris, but whatdo you think is the psychology?
(07:46):
I know the fear part, butwhat is the psychology of.
Anger towards these people.
Yeah, that's a good question I wish oneof them were here with me now because
they've experienced it and I guess I'veexperienced it a little bit It's funny.
I'm a literature teacher.
I teach online classes.
(08:06):
I teach the scarlet letter I havea, an episode coming up where I
use the metaphor of the ScarletLetter where I need to I, it's not
recorded yet, but boy I don't know.
I will say this.
I am not a president Trump person at all.
I'm the opposite.
(08:27):
And so I feel like I would struggleif someone walked into a church, my
church with the MAGA hat on, I thinkit's good to do self reflection.
What are we all capable of?
I'm capable of being takenover by my own fears.
One of my biggest things in allof this is my own father issues.
And so now I've upset my bishop who issupposed to be my spiritual father and
(08:51):
the shame or the fear that I'm beingrejected, or I'm going to be punished.
I guess I'm just the past few monthsas I've been like struggling with
should I return the podcast orshould I just stop it all together?
I've been wrestling with myown weaknesses the whole time.
I had another priest.
I'm sorry if I'm goingdifferent directions here.
(09:12):
But in a meeting that I had withmy bishop, a priest asked me if I
was just Doing this for my own ego.
And am I doing this because it's about meand I've wrestled with that as an artist,
I've had to wrestle with that becauseyeah, I want to make a great podcast.
I want to tell a great story.
I want to do the best job that I can do.
Yeah.
So there is pride involvedwith this and I don't know.
(09:35):
I, I your question is a great one.
And I guess maybe what I would comeback to is the power of groupthink and
in so many of these cultures, there is.
This need to think all the same and partof me gets that because I believe in
saying the Apostles Creed and you know,it's like, yeah, you should, if you're
(09:56):
coming to the church, you need to confessthe Apostles Creed and the scriptures,
but there's another element to group thinkthat it becomes pretty dysfunctional.
Chris.
One of the things I think you alsobring up a lot is like, you just
mentioned it a second ago whatis the human being capable of?
And you talk about this woman, like,how could she get raped at 39 years old?
How would, how did shepossibly let that happen?
(10:18):
Or, how, by the way, when you say thatwe don't know we're capable as human
beings, I know, Chris, for a fact, ThatI'm not going to host a Dungeons and
Dragons game tonight and put a Mickeyin some person's drink and rape her.
I'm not going to do that.
But it is this idea of whatare we as human beings?
We don't know until we put ourselves inthat situation what we're capable of.
(10:42):
You know what?
Editing through the podcasthas been really hard.
And I've had to sit with that.
And there are times whereI interact with Joanna.
I've talked with her a coupleof times, interview wise.
And then there's just, , online,back and forth, you know, words.
I, I, there's a fear in me that I couldbecome like this sociopath rapist to her
(11:09):
or that she would perceive me that way.
And so, you know, and I don'tthink I'm that person at all, but
I don't know as a man as a, I'ma, I'm six, four, I'm a large man.
I don't know.
Maybe it's good for us to think, you knowwhat, this is the world that we live in.
As men, we have to take responsibilityfor, not for other people's behaviors,
(11:30):
but at least for ourselves and how othersmight perceive us and how we come across.
Yeah.
I don't know.
In the midst of editing these episodes,I have just found myself heavy.
I wouldn't call it depression,but it like sits with me for days.
Oh yeah.
I listened to it and I've got depression.
Yeah.
Let me, I just like, hold on real quick.
I, I work and I,
(11:51):
Yeah.
When I leave work, I walk homefor 35 minutes at Brandon's.
Like, you got to listen to this podcast.
It's my downtime is to , just walkhome and I put on your podcast.
and it's like, Oh my God,this is not easy listening.
This is not helping me unwind.
It is heavy.
Yes.
So do you guys think that all I doin my spare time is I just listen
to other church abuse podcasts?
(12:13):
Well, wait a second.
That's a segue into what Larry's saying,because I want to make sure those
listening, because we've talked aboutwe're going to have Chris Marchand on.
You have this amazing podcast.
It's been sort of equated to thatchristianity today marcelle podcast
Although you say very early on thatit's about this show is about victims
That we want to tell the victim storyand they didn't necessarily do that.
(12:33):
i've enjoyed that podcast Nocriticism of that My question is
where are the religious publications?
Like Christianity Today.
I know that religious news network didan article on the show It talked about
the fact that you're coming back Whereare the voices of Christianity today,
or not Christianity, but Christianityin general, the public, you know, I'm
saying that whatever the intelligentsia,whatever, where are those voices in terms
(12:57):
of this podcast or in general abuse?
Where are they?
Oh, in general abuse.
Are you talking aboutlike the American church?
Are you talking about publications?
No, I'm talking about there are differentChristian publications that write stuff,
or even conservative leaning publications.
And where are, why are they notsaying, what about the victims?
(13:19):
Why aren't we listening to The Wall ofSilence or whatever else is out there?
Why aren't they raising the alarm?
That's a good question.
I don't know.
I, I, uh, I did an interview what wasit, last week or the week before with
Religion News Service, and CatherinePost is the journalist, and she's been
covering this for a few years now.
(13:40):
And I would say she's beenlifting up those stories.
At the same time, I, I don't know.
It's actually a really good question.
I, maybe I would, I would say this.
I don't know how you guys feel.
So many of my online people that we tryto let people know about what we're doing.
I actually, there's a musician thatI follow, and he's an older guy.
(14:02):
His name is Charlie Peacock.
And he's even saying the samething, is, is we don't know
how to reach people anymore.
So I think there's something thathappened in the last five years where
We're all throwing our stuff up theredoing the best that we can putting out
quality material But everything is prettyfractured and split into different groups.
And there's people that Don't know aboutdifferent artists or different podcasts.
(14:24):
So I don't know.
I mean, I will say this many many moreconservative people No longer would give
a rip if christianity today as a magazineor a publication released anything They
could have a podcast and I doubt thatmany ACNA people, Anglican Church of North
America people would even listen to it.
They wouldn't care.
(14:44):
It's just another woke podcast.
So, I don't know.
I guess I, that, that's, I thinkwe're in a new era that many of us in
media, we don't, we haven't figuredit out yet right now what's going on.
You do an incredible job in thewall of silence of explaining why
you're doing what you're doing.
So my question is about theACNA 2, it's T O O, right?
This group of people that have started,because I called a friend of mine.
(15:06):
Who's at Hillsdale college.
If you're familiar with Hillsdalecollege, it's pretty conserved.
He's in the ACNA.
He's uber conservative.
I love him.
He's one of my best friends, but I askedhim, I said, Hey, I've listened to this
guy be listening to this wall of science.
He's like, Oh, that's that ACNA two thing.
Isn't it?
I'm like, what are you talking?
I'd never heard of it.
He's like, they're just disgruntled.
People from the Anglican church.
I'm like disgruntled.
It sounds like they're talkingabout something serious.
(15:27):
What is the ACNA to?
Because that is the heart of this.
And what is their goal?
What is their goal or purpose?
I should say not goal, but theirgoal and purpose is to advocate for
abuse survivors and for reformingand making change within the ACNA.
(15:49):
And they've.
worked really, really hard to, theycontact church leaders, people come
to them wanting to tell their stories.
I mean, who they are, you know, they'repeople that I've gotten to know.
They're people that I've gottento know that they're either
used to be in ACNA churches.
Some of them associated with, a churchof the resurrection, others not,
(16:13):
but they've come together to raiseawareness within our own denomination
about what we can do to change things.
Now, one thing that I would point youto is, I can't remember when this came
out, it might have been 2022, maybeit was 2021, they had an open letter
Archbishop Foley, who was our formerarchbishop, and in it, they had all of
(16:37):
their requests of what they would want.
And so, if you're asking me, youknow, hey, what do they want?
I was like, well, let's go.
It's complicated, right?
It's long.
Let's go back and read that letter.
And one of the ways that that letter wasportrayed, by the way, was Those were
talked about as if they were demands.
Look at what ACNA 2 is demanding.
(16:57):
And, and it's interestingwhat your friend says.
Disgruntled.
Isn't that an interesting wayof just brushing someone aside?
It's kind of similar to say this oneperson that I talked to said, Aren't
they just, some of these people justmad because they don't ordain women.
It's like, Like, life is complicated.
There might be a lot of reasons, butwhy are you pushing under the rug the
(17:21):
fact that they're raising up abuse andtrying to bring reform into the church
by simply calling them disgruntled.
I'm curious about that.
Why, why, why take that approach?
I mean, your, your friend goesto Hillsdale or he teaches there.
I mean, there's perceptionsof people on the right.
Does he want to be treatedthat way as just somebody?
Should I raise up every complainthe has against the Democratic Party
(17:42):
is, yeah, you're just disgruntled.
Does he want to be treated that way?
I don't think he does.
Yeah, that's a great, great question.
Chris, can I ask you onelast question as we head out?
I want to know if thishas affected your faith.
I'm curious about you, listening to whatLarry said, it's not easy to listen to.
We commend you, but has itaffected your faith at all?
Yeah it is very much something I'vewrestled with it is something that
(18:05):
I ask myself relatively frequently,like, am I still a Christian?
Do I still want to be a part of this?
Do I believe in the Church?
And when I think of the Church, I think ofit not just this institution, but it is,
we are the gathered believers you know, inthe Bible, it's called the body of Christ,
and It has certainly rattled my faith.
It kind of makes me want to gooff and just be a monk in a cave
(18:27):
in the wilderness somewhere.
And, because I don't know if I candeal with human institutions anymore.
I have another friend, he doeslike an internet radio show.
And I've been coming up with a playlistof, here's the name of the list.
This literally is, so it'san interesting question.
It's songs that let meknow I'm still a Christian.
It's like a playlist.
(18:48):
And I was like, Hey, can I come andbe a guest DJ on your internet thing?
And I can do my little playlist and stuff.
So yes, I mean this is, this hasrattled me and I kind of feel like
when this actually happened, theAC and a two people, when I was
silenced, they said, Chris, you'reone of us now is what they said.
Because now you have to deal with.
(19:10):
Your own spiritual manipulationthat's happened to you.
So it's all very disorienting is what I'mtrying to say And I feel I need to get
some therapy sessions in with my counselorBecause there's some stuff I have to
work through just emotionally Let alonespiritually so I guess i'm still very
much in the midst of it, but i'm stillfollowing jesus Well, I'm speechless.
(19:31):
This is the longest we've ever gone on aSmarticle podcast and it is well deserved.
Chris Marchand, the podcast, onceagain, this is not easy listening,
but it should be required listening.
It is the Wall of Silence podcast.
Chris Marchand, thank you for taking yourtime and thank you for the mission of
your life and the struggle that we havebeen to be able to be a part of it today.
(19:53):
Thank you so much, Chris.
Thank you.
Appreciate you both taking the time.
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