February 26, 2025 • 46 mins
In this episode of the Smarticle podcast, Brandon introduces Erin West, a former Deputy District Attorney and founder of Operation Shamrock, to delve into the alarming rise of 'pig butchering' scams. Erin explains how these scams trick victims, often through elaborate schemes involving romantic or investment opportunities, leading to devastating financial losses. She discusses the difficulties victims face in reporting these crimes and highlights the gaps in law enforcement and financial institutions' responses. Erin shares her efforts to educate and equip law enforcement through the Crypto Coalition and emphasizes the need for greater awareness and kindness towards scam victims. The conversation also touches on the international origins of these scams and the lack of intervention by global authorities. Tune in to learn how to protect yourself and support initiatives against these destructive scams.
00:00 Introduction to Pig Butchering Scams 01:24 Meet Erin West: The Scam Fighter 03:24 Understanding Pig Butchering Scams 05:09 The Mechanics of the Scam 07:02 The Human Cost and Reporting Challenges 10:13 Origins and Operations of Pig Butchering 16:05 Targeting and Tactics of Scammers 22:11 Financial Impact and Institutional Response 25:56 The Scam Setup: How Victims Are Tricked 26:51 Emotional Manipulation Tactics 29:24 The Role of Financial Institutions 31:32 Challenges in Law Enforcement 33:12 Building a Coalition Against Crypto Crimes 35:25 The Need for Better Education and Tools 42:15 The Responsibility of Social Media Companies 44:23 Final Thoughts and Call to Action smarticlepodcast@gmail.com Operation Shamrock @Smarticleshow @BDDoble @larryolson threads.net/@smarticleshow @brand.dobes The Smarticle Podcasthttps://www.smarticlepodcast.com/
#erinwest #operationshamrock #cryptocoalition #pigbutcheringscam #pigbutchering #romancescams #scams #onlinescams #smarticlepodcast
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Episode Transcript
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(00:53):
Welcome to the Smarticle podcast.
Today we're going to be entering the worldof pig butchering scams, one of the most
insidious forms of financial fraud today.
If you've ever received a friendly messagefrom a stranger that seems too good to
be true, you might have been a target.
The scams don't just steal money.
They destroy lives, leaving victimsfinancially and emotionally devastated.
Our guest today is a superstar whois on a mission to stop these scam.
(01:16):
Erin West is a globally recognizedspeaker and educator leading the fight
against transnational organized crimewith a relentless focus on disrupting
scam networks and protecting victims.
As the founder of Operation Shamrock, Erinhas built a powerful coalition, uniting
law enforcement, private industry, andglobal stakeholders to combat scams,
(01:38):
link transnational organized crime.
Operations Shamrock is dedicated tobuilding investigative capacity and
equipping law enforcement with toolsto take action and providing real-time
intelligence to industry, ensuringthat criminals have nowhere to hide.
Erin's expertise comes from 26 yearsas a Deputy District attorney in Santa
Clara County, California, where shespent eight years with the React High
(02:01):
Tech task, leading investigations intocryptocurrency enabled crimes, SIM
swapping and digital financial fraud.
She also founded the Crypto Coalition,an international network of nearly 2000
law enforcement professionals focusedon cryptocurrency investigations.
Now through Operation Shamrock, Erinis on a mission to educate, mobilize,
(02:22):
and disrupt raising awareness of scamoperations, empowering law enforcement
worldwide, and delivering actionableintelligence to industry partners
to stop fraud before it happens.
Our passion, leadership, andrelentless pursuit of justice are
driving real change in the fightagainst transnational organized crime.
Welcome everybody.
(02:43):
I'm here with my new bestfriend, Erin West, who runs one
of the coolest organizationsI've ever heard of in my life.
First off, can you just tell us who youare and a little bit about yourself?
Sure.
I'm Erin West.
I was a local prosecutorfor 26 and a half years.
I just retired in Novemberto start this nonprofit.
(03:03):
But when I was a prosecutorfor the last eight years, I was
assigned to a team of detectiveswho specialized in high tech crime.
And while I was there, I became aware of awhole new type of crime that was literally
crushing people called pig butchering.
The more I learned about it, themore I realized that it was at crisis
(03:26):
level and nobody had even heard of it.
And so yeah, I made it my business tostart talking about it all the time
everywhere to anyone who would listen.
And that is my business because it isa really, really destructive type of
scamming that is laser focused at takingthe wealth of the United States away.
(03:49):
That could sum up everything that I'vebeen doing with this series because
it is so pervasive and so frightening.
I actually we're gonna hear laterfrom someone who was actually
scammed in a pig butchering scam,and I think a lot of people think,
oh, that could never happen to me.
And or that only happens to dumb people.
And I could tell folks that it doesn'tjust happen to people that aren't
(04:12):
aware It happens to people everyday.
Let's start
with a definition of what is
pig butchering?
Cuz I'd never heard of it beforetwo weeks ago and I consider
myself a fairly well read guy.
And that's the problem.
This is the biggest threatthat you've never heard of.
This is the world's biggest crime thatnot enough people are talking about.
(04:34):
And so that's why I talkabout it all the time.
'cause I wanna make sure that I've hityour uncle in Iowa and I've hit my next
door neighbor and my kids' soccer coach.
This is where we need toget this story because.
The bankers have heard of aboutit now, law enforcement now knows
what it is, but the fact is middleAmerica does not know what this is,
(04:55):
and it's literally coming for them.
So the way the scam works is I think we'veall gotten those texts on our phone that
appear to be directed to someone else.
Mm-hmm.
And what that is the beginning of a scam.
While it might appear like not a bigdeal and oh, this is kind of scammy,
in fact, that is the first step.
(05:16):
To luring you in on the longcon, that is pig butchering.
What that scammer will do is over a periodof say, 90 days, spend four to five hours
a day texting and really selling you thedream of this fantastic relationship, the
relationship that you've always wanted.
(05:38):
And complimented with photographs of howthe scammer the person, the love interest
for you is living a really high classlife and is driving a beautiful car and
doing expensive travel and living well.
So they get our victims to buy into.
I'm in a relationship with this person,and this is a person of means, and
ultimately the scammer will disclosethat, you know how I afford this, it's
(06:03):
because I invest in cryptocurrency.
And I didn't know how to invest incryptocurrency either, but my uncle
taught me and my uncle could teach you.
And that's when the second dream is sold.
And that is you too couldbe wealthy like this.
And that perfect storm of basic humanwants and needs of wanting to be loved
(06:23):
and then wanting to be well financed isreally too much for people to resist and
they end up losing all of their money.
It.
Shocking.
When I talked to a guy by the name ofTroy who works now, he works for, I
think you guys, you actually know him.
In fact, he know he's one that I know.
He was the one that sicked me onyou . I was like, you have to talk
to Erin West when you talk to Troy.
(06:46):
And he's wonderful because he'sone of these people that says,
look, I'm gonna try to help people.
'cause I do know from my research, andmaybe you could speak a little to this a
little bit, is why don't people report.
Hmm.
The fact that people don't report thiswhen they're not losing $500, they're
losing sometimes hundreds of thousands ofdollars that are going into these scams.
(07:09):
And I would love for you to talk alittle bit about like where these, how
these scams originate and all that.
But why don't people report this?
You're absolutely right about theamount of the loss and the amount of the
loss, no matter how many dollars it isgoing to be everything the victim has.
That's the goal.
So during that time where thescammer is getting to know the
(07:30):
victim, part of their really targetedprocess is to find out everywhere
that the victim is holding money.
Because the way pig butcheringworks is that it doesn't end until
they've taken every last cent.
By the time our victims.
Realize that they've lost everythingand oftentimes have even been lured into
(07:50):
getting a loan and putting more money in.
They're devastated.
This is a whole class of victim that Ihad never seen before and I prosecuted
really severe sexual assaults.
I've put prosecuted homicide.
I prosecute really hate crimes,but this is a person who, by the
time they get to me, has losttheir entire financial footing.
(08:14):
As well as realized that the person theytrusted beyond all others, set them up for
this fall and had been planning it sincethe first time they started speaking.
So our victims are devastated andthen they become humiliated and they
really do a lot of self blame of howcould I have let this happen to me?
(08:37):
And what they're not realizing is.
They are no match, no matter how smartanyone is for a team of people who
do this all day, every day and whoare armed with really sophisticated
psychological techniques and they catchour victims not on their best day, and
(08:58):
then they sell them a whole idea, awhole concept, a whole dream, and our
victims, people want to believe the good.
So anyway, so our victims, there's verymuch a stigma to this and very much when
they report to law enforcement, oftentimesthey are led to believe that this isn't
a crime and that this is a civil matteror that there's nothing that can be done
(09:22):
for them, and that is really traumatizing.
One of the worst things about thisis we don't even understand how
big the problem is because we don'thave enough people reporting it.
Yeah, well, we're banging the drum.
I think that you, with work thatyou're doing and others it's the ba
the drama's being banged for sure.
And hopefully in a year or soonerwe'll have a better understanding.
(09:45):
But let's start withthe term pig butchering.
It is so weird.
When I first heard, I waslike, what in the what?
So where did it come from?
What is it?
And you talked about thissophisticated group of people.
Can you talk a little bit about whatthat is and what that looks like?
Yeah, so I wanna take you backto pre Covid and pre Covid.
(10:07):
A group of Chinese organized gangsters,literally known Chinese criminals,
decided to capitalize on the factthat cryptocurrency is banned in
China and gambling is banned in China.
And so they started building casino towersin Seehan, Oakville, Cambodia, because
they thought, okay, well this is wherewe can build an entire gambling mecca.
(10:30):
And as we sit today, there'ssomething like 133 casinos
in this small seaside town.
What's happened is we all know Covidcame and people weren't moving.
They weren't going to these casinos,and so the criminals pivoted and
they thought, okay, well let'sthink of something else we could do.
Let's do Shah Zupan.
(10:50):
That's their term, translatesto pig butchering, which means.
We're gonna fatten up our victimswith love bombs and all kinds of
dreams that we're gonna sell them.
And then ultimately we are goingto slit their throat, butcher them,
and take everything they have.
And so that is the vilenature of what this is.
This is not a, just like you said, thatpeople aren't losing a small amount
(11:12):
of money, they're losing everything.
It is the most destructive form of theft.
So they call it pig butchering.
And so they, this is run byChinese organized crime and to.
Effectively do this work.
They needed a huge human workforceand to get that workforce, they
started advertising for employeesand they made it seem very real,
(11:34):
like it was a very real job.
And at that time, and currentlythere's a large unemployment problem
in Southeast Asia and in the countriesthat they prey upon, and they're
able to offer an impressive salary.
So people apply to these jobs.
They have interviews for these jobs.
They have every reason tobelieve that it's a legit job.
(11:55):
And then when they take the airline ticketthat the company provides and they fly
to Bangkok, they arrive in Bangkok andthey are, their passports are taken, they
are put on buses, and they are routed toCambodian compounds where they are then
locked down and forced to do this work.
(12:17):
A slave population, are theythere forever or can get out?
So what we know is that they are, thisis happening largely in Cambodia and
in Myanmar and every every operationthat's running this has their own
rules about how people get out.
We know that we've seen some rescueswhere family members have paid a
(12:39):
ransom to get their family member out.
We know of certain countries thathave involved their ambassador
and have gotten people out.
We are in touch with.
People inside the compounds who wantto get out but don't have ransom
payments and will likely stay there.
They're frequently there untileither someone rescues them or
(13:01):
until they can make this payment.
Oh my gosh.
I'm gonna ask the obvious 'causethat's way my brain works.
I'm gonna ask the obvious question.
What in the world is going on inMyanmar and Cambodia with these
government, and how is it possiblethat China, the United States.
Authorities aren't doingsomething about it.
(13:21):
You're asking all the right questions.
Let's take 'em one by one.
So, Myanmar is in a civil war right now.
It's not at all clear who's runninganything and what isn't being
touched in this civil war are themassive compounds that are housing.
I. This enslaved population doingthis work, and that's because
there's too much money in it.
This is a business likewe've never seen before.
(13:44):
This is an amazingly lucrativeoperation that enables the gangsters
running it to pay off all kinds ofprotection so that they're not touched.
When we look at Cambodia, we knowthat this industry makes up half of
the GDP for the country of Cambodia.
(14:05):
Wow.
There's too much money.
We are dealing with a region of the worldwith a embedded corruption problem where
people can be paid to look the other waythat enables these compounds to exist.
But you ask a really important questionabout China and the United States and
their absence in really handling this.
(14:28):
What we have seen is we'veseen China step in where.
They essentially, they set rules andtheir rules were do not target chi
the Chinese population as victimsof the financial scheme and do not
human traffic, Chinese employees.
We don't want Chinese victims oneither side and where the compounds of
(14:51):
violated that we've seen the Chinesestep in and liberate compounds , with
the assistance of people on theground there, we haven't seen.
A large response from the UnitedStates in any part of this.
Why do you think that is?
I wish I knew.
I've spent the last three yearsknocking on doors, speaking politely,
(15:16):
yelling, doing my level best toraise the awareness and the critical
nature of this to the right people.
But what we know for sure is that we have.
A massive illicit economy beingrun by Chinese organized criminals
(15:38):
that is largely unchecked and ishaving no friction put upon it
as we watch them steal an entiregeneration's worth of wealth.
Oh my goodness.
Alright, I'm getting depressed.
Let's talk about the groups of peoplethat they, so who do they target?
Is it specific groups of people?
(15:58):
And then what weapons do they useif that, I don't know if that's the
right word, but how do they identifyand target the victims in general?
I would love to say, I think with thephone numbers, I don't know that that's
targeted at all.
I think that is just a blanket, everysingle phone number that they can
find that is active will be targeted.
(16:19):
Hmm.
But I do know from talking to peopleinside that they do target groups of
people that they assume will be wealthy.
So I know that they invadetravel groups on Facebook.
They invade fancy food groups,wine groups where they think that
they will meet wealthier people.
And from there they tryto begin friendships and.
(16:42):
Romantic relationships,and so that's what they do.
I used to say that I wish I knew who theywere targeting because then I could really
focus on educating that population alone.
But the fact is I've seen victims that arein their twenties up to their eighties.
They literally will go after anyone thatis interested in their scheme of getting
(17:03):
rich by investing in cryptocurrency.
So just to make sure I understandthis is a hundred percent digital.
There's no contact between the people.
This is all done online.
Well, no.
Oh, thank you for asking that.
Oh, because that, I think,is a window of opportunity.
So what we've seen, what weknow about these criminals
is they pivot, pivot, pivot.
(17:24):
And every time we think we're makingany kind of inroad, they pivot.
So one of their more recent pivots hasbeen showing up at people's houses.
So here's how this works.
Instead of having the victims sendthe money electronically, they have
started some, well, in many cases,having the victims go to their bank
(17:46):
and withdraw a significant amount ofcash, then having that cash picked
up by a courier at their home.
To me, that feels like an opportunity,that feels like an opportunity with
people on us soil to make arrestsand to disrupt what they're doing.
So they're buildingthis romantic interest.
Do they ever put in people, likethey send a romantic interest
(18:09):
to the like, hi, I'm so-and-so.
We've been talking online andnow gimme the keys to the crypto.
So that's so funny too.
So it used to be, I've been in this forthree years now and watched it develop.
It used to be we would say if theywon't get on a phone call with you,
then that means they're not real.
Mm-hmm.
Then they started hiringpeople to make phone calls.
Then we'd say if they won't get ona video chat, then they're not real.
(18:30):
Then they figured out ways to do that.
They hired models and now we know they'reusing deep fakes, and now we know that
they're doing a lot of the chats with ai.
So we know that every time we think we.
Have given good advice tovictims, they get around it.
I'm not sure if I answered the question.
It's a nuanced operation.
It's ever changing.
(18:51):
It's really hard to answer that question.
They attack the personthrough these groups.
They try to tug at their emotionalharshing, fine lonely people or whatever.
But I'm a happily married man.
I'm a dad.
I'm pretty busy.
How does somebody like mefall into a trap like this?
Well, I'll tell you, I think everybody,no matter how happily married and
no matter how good they feel abouttheir circumstances, might welcome an
(19:15):
opportunity to make a little extra cash.
Mm-hmm.
Sure.
These people are not preyingon us on our best days.
If you I frequently talk to victimswho would say, God, if it wasn't,
it was such a bad day the day thatperson reached out to me and I
just started chatting with them.
I will tell you that many a married manhas fallen for this, and we can talk
(19:35):
about whether what they were trying toget out of that relationship or not.
I've also talked to married men whowere targeted as a. Hey, I've got this
really impressive investment scheme.
Mm-hmm.
And let me tell you how it works.
I know it's super easy.
If you're listening to a podcast likethis and you're listening to people
talk about this, it's very easy tosay, I don't think that would ever
(19:58):
happen to me, and probably not asyou're sitting here listening to it.
Mm-hmm.
But I guarantee you, you know,someone that this has happened to
in some way, shape or form, theyhave been taken advantage of by
someone online because it's thatpervasive it, it's that ubiquitous.
And so what we really have to do isbe careful about how we talk about it,
(20:21):
because how we talk about it enablespeople to come forward and normalize it.
Mm-hmm.
I try to talk about times, evenin the past year where I have
clicked on something I shouldn'thave because I got tricked.
I talk about what's happened to my dad.
I talk about, my best friend,what's happened to her dad.
(20:42):
I think that there's no onewho's immune from being tricked.
At the end of the day, theanswer is we need to assume every
electronic communication is ascam until proven otherwise.
Wow.
If you don't know that person, they'rea scammer until you've learn otherwise.
And even if you do know that person,sometimes there are sophisticated
(21:04):
ways of basically faking someonethrough a profile or it is everywhere.
There are 330 million people inthis country, and I probably get.
Just random Joe.
Me, I probably get 20 attacks a week.
I've had my LinkedIn profile hacked.
I get smishing attacks all.
It's like, hey, is this so and so?
And you're like what I always tellpeople now is just delete 'em.
(21:28):
Don't even engage becausethey want you to engage.
They want you to engage.
They're gonna try and trick you insome way, but you're also proving
that that is an active phone number.
Mm-hmm.
And the last thing you wanna do is getyourself on yet another list of, at
least this is an active phone number.
We know that this phone number works, sothe amount of attacks on us on the daily,
(21:49):
on the weekly is gone through the roof.
And so we have to always be on guard rightnow in a way that we never had to be.
We've talked about itcould affect everybody.
Is there a typical financial loss forpeople, or is it all over the board?
It runs the gamut.
Yeah.
The typical loss is everything you have.
Oh, boy.
So it's hard to say.
I had a call from a victim in Hawaiithis week who lost $3 million.
(22:14):
Oh.
I spoke with a Canadian veteran who lost25,000, and so each one is excruciating.
Yeah.
Each one is, you know, my Canadian.
Victim was a veteran who justretired from the armed forces.
He had a severance paymentand lost all of it.
It's only getting worse.
(22:34):
It's only getting more frequent andit's, I talk about it in, in the words
of a crisis, we are 100% in a crisis.
I could just hear Uncle Lou say,just give him your information
because you're talking aboutgiving millions of dollars away.
How do they actually getthat information from you?
And secondly, what is the responsibilityor what are the financial institutions,
(22:58):
because there's obviously a papertrail of some sort, I would assume.
But what it, so first part is how arethey getting the information from people?
And second part is what are thefinancial institutions doing about it?
Okay, so let me walk you through alittle bit of how this happens, because
sometimes people who don't understandit completely will say things like,
I would never give away my money.
(23:18):
That's not what's happening here.
So you've met someone online that youbelieve to be now the love of your life,
and that person has isolated you fromthe rest of your family and led you to
believe that they are the only one thatcan be trusted, and that if anybody tries
to tell you that this is a bad idea, it'sbecause they're jealous and they don't
(23:39):
understand the love that you have andthey don't understand cryptocurrency.
And then this trusted person is goingto say, okay, so you can see that
I live a really comfortable life.
I got there from investingin cryptocurrency.
Let me show you how to do it.
And so they'll get our victims to investa small amount of money, whatever small
amount of money is to that victim.
(24:00):
Mm-hmm.
So say it's $5,000, they then taketheir, they get the victim to take
their US dollars from the bank.
Put it into a crypto exchange,which is like a bank for
cryptocurrency, like Coinbase.
Mm-hmm.
And when they put thatmoney into Coinbase, it's an
account in their own name.
Our victim still controls all of it.
(24:22):
They'll then teach ourvictim how to change their US
dollars into cryptocurrency.
So now, instead of USdollars, you have Bitcoin.
And then they say, okay, my unclesays it's a good window for trading,
so let's take your $5,000 worth ofBitcoin and put it in this trading
(24:43):
platform that my uncle recommends andthat I use and that all my money is in.
So our victim.
They think they're putting theirmoney into an investment platform.
It's a domain on the internet.
It looks very real becausethat's how good they are.
They build things that look veryreal, and our victim doesn't have a
lot of experience with cryptocurrencyinvestment platforms, so they have
(25:06):
no reason to doubt that this is real.
They think they're putting their moneyinto it and they see a dashboard that
shows that their money is going up.
Oh my gosh, now it's worth 6,800.
Now it's worth 7,500.
Now it's worth 10,000.
It's doubled.
But really their money has gone down theblockchain into the hands of the scammer,
(25:27):
but they think they are investing moneyand that they are becoming wealthy.
That's when our scammer willthen say, you know what?
My uncle says there's a greatwindow this weekend for $200,000.
And our victims will think, oh, Inever considered putting in that much.
And that's when they use another trickand they say, I'll do it with you.
Let's do it together.
I'll put in a hundred,you put in a hundred.
(25:49):
So our victims think, no way would thisperson put money in a bad investment
and we're gonna do it together.
That shows how much they love me.
They put in their 200,000 and nowit's half a million dollars, and they
think, oh my God, this really works.
I'm gonna be wealthy.
And then they start liquidatingeverything at the request of the scammer.
I am John Dole's son.
(26:09):
Mm-hmm.
So I'm gonna play, my dad was raisedin foster care and orphanages, so he
didn't trust anybody with anything.
Let's go.
So I'm sitting here listening tothis and I'm thinking to myself.
If it sounds too good tobe true, it probably is.
So again, I'm just playing out thatperson, my Uncle Lou, whatever.
Yep.
How is that manipulator?
That scammer?
(26:29):
Are they talking to me digitally?
Are they calling me?
Are they, I know you saythey have now models to do.
How are they doing that to me?
How are they working?
My emotions.
It's mostly text.
It's mostly using tricks.
Like are you saying youdon't trust what I'm saying?
I thought we were in this together.
I thought this was a serious relationship.
Maybe I need to look elsewhere.
(26:50):
Maybe you're not as seriousabout me as I thought you were.
And then that gets Hmmmm theyuse all kinds of psychological
techniques that as we sit here, wethink, I wouldn't fall for that.
But when we are.
Alone in our house, and we've isolatedbecause we really can't trust anybody
with this story because maybe even alittle bit in the back of our head,
(27:10):
we think maybe this isn't right.
So I actually don't wannatell anybody about this.
And the only person I'm trusting is thisperson on the other end of the text.
And they're so pretty and they havesuch a nice life and they seem to really
be into me and they know everythingabout me and they really accept me
as I am and this is gonna work out.
That's where we get, and it's not onday one or day four that this happens.
(27:34):
It's on day 73 where this personhas been in this with you nonstop.
It's hard to.
Explain the endorphin rush.
It's hard to explain the endorphinrush of being in love with the
anticipated endorphin rush of,and I'm also gonna be wealthy.
(27:56):
Oh my goodness.
So, yeah, John Dobelmay not fall for this.
He may be the guy that'snever gonna do this.
But I'll tell you what, I've gotan email box full of people who
would, oh, I think John Dobel would.
Oh, you think you would?
They probably have figured out how totap into our, this can't be, I'm too
smart for this, or it's not gonna happento me because I figured it all out.
(28:18):
Uhhuh, you know, because it's just enough.
I got a LinkedIn contact, somebodysaid to me, and it was just weird.
And I use LinkedIn for business.
I don't use it foranything else, so I, right.
But it was a weird thing and it was like.
Do I know you have.
We met at a conference or somethingand I was like, okay, this is fishy.
Right?
But then they came back and said, haveyou seen a lot of Asian women online?
And I immediately was like, oh, okay.
(28:40):
If I was susceptible, if Iwas like, well, that could be.
Maybe a little strange.
Woo.
Okay.
I could see that I reported thisthing and I also, because I spent
so much time dealing with this rightnow, I could tell that it was ai.
Yes, it was an AI picture and Iwas like, this is an AI picture
and there are some tricks.
(29:01):
I can only speak to LinkedInand plays like that, but look
and see, have they posted?
And they'll get better at that.
They'll start doingall this crazy posting.
Yes, they're good.
So yes, I do think that my dad couldhave been taken in just like I think
I could be taken in just like anybody.
So before we get to like, how do westop it, let's talk about what is,
I want to talk about the financialinstitution's responsibility.
What do they, and then what lawenforcement, I've lost everything.
(29:23):
Mm-hmm.
I'm a widow.
Mm-hmm.
I've had my husband's pension or mywife's pension and now I've lost it.
I go back to Bank of America orwhomever I bank with, what's their
responsibility at this point?
None.
And it's interesting 'cause we wannalook at, right now we're looking at
banking and law enforcement and yes,those two should be held accountable.
(29:47):
That is the work that I do, isto try and raise the standard.
Of the service that you are going toget from law enforcement and the service
that you're going to get from banking,that is the job that I've given myself.
I think that there are plenty of bankswho will let you walk right out the
(30:10):
door or will let you easily wire thisfrom your account where you don't
even have to talk to anybody to do it.
Then there are others where I'm just,I was just texting with a friend
in Boise where they will literallyalmost stand in front of the door
and tell you that this is a scamand that you really shouldn't do it.
(30:31):
The banks are often caught inbetween a rock and a hard place.
Mm-hmm.
When they have a victim comingin, who's demanding this, who's
been well coached, about what tosay and who wants their money.
Yes, banks, but banks should be havingbetter controls about how, where this
money is going and how it's going.
They need, we need better standardsand better education at the front
(30:54):
lines, and we need better education.
This is something we're workingon talking to victims about.
What could have turnedyou around at that point?
Like what could someone havesaid to you at that point that
might have made you turn around?
It's mind boggling because I do thinkit's so, the tentacles are so wide.
You can't really blame the bank.
They've got a customer and thecustomer wants to do something.
(31:15):
Are they responsible for makingsure they don't do something dumb?
Okay.
Let's talk really quicklyabout law enforcement.
I have a lot of respectfor law enforcement.
I have a lot of respect for districtattorneys and people that it's hard.
There's a lot stuff outthere and a lot of rules and.
Let's talk about where law enforcementis and where law enforcement should go.
(31:40):
Yeah, I'd love to, and as someonewho spent my working career in
law enforcement, it's important tome that victims get good service
when they come to law enforcement.
These victims are people who have workedtheir whole lives and followed rules and
expect law enforcement to be there when.
(32:02):
Their entire livelihoodhas been stolen from them.
Mm-hmm.
Law enforcement would take their report iftheir bike was stolen from them, if their
car was stolen from them, but somehowwhen it becomes their entire net worth,
then there's a whole bias against themthat comes down from law enforcement on
in some places, and that's difficult.
So what I will tell you is, yes, victimsare having a very difficult time in
(32:27):
some locations reporting this crime.
That became apparent to me when myteam was able to recover some money for
victims and wanted to educate Dallasbecause we found money belonging to
Dallas victims and say, Hey Dallas,we've got some money for your victims.
Do you wanna engage in this with us?
(32:48):
And they were like, wedon't do cryptocurrency.
Same thing in California, same thing.
And so what we found was a huge gapin law enforcement's ability to take
these reports and do anything with them.
And so that's why I built the Cryptocoalition because I realized, oh.
I live in a bubble because I work witha task force that is well educated
(33:11):
and well funded by the state ofCalifornia, and not everybody has that.
Mm-hmm.
So I made it my mission to find othersthat knew how to do this and then use
those people to teach others in theUnited States how to do this work.
And so I built this coalitionthat's gone from 85.
Members of law enforcement totoday, over 2000 active members
(33:32):
of law enforcement that are doingcryptocurrency investigations.
So I'm working to build the groundfloor when people come in that
their, at least their report istaken and something is done with it.
It's fascinating to me that someonecould show up at my door with a gun.
Rob, I might have money in a little safe.
Yep.
They take the money.
(33:52):
Law enforcement would be all over that.
I'd have fbi I'd have at, I'd haveeverybody in the world on that.
And so is, and again, I don't think thatlaw enforcement are like, ah, whatever.
This person got screwedout of their money.
Oh, well I don't thinkthat They don't care.
So what is it?
Is it just a lack of educationbecause crypto is so complicated?
Is that what thesecriminals are relying on?
(34:13):
That it's just too muchto try to track this down?
I'm glad you're giving me theopportunity to explain, because
I think this is important.
When you think of the financial crimesdetective at any agency, I. They probably
got voluntold to be there for a lotof people who become police officers.
They wanna be out on the streetsand they want to be fighting crime
(34:34):
every day on the streets, and sothere's probably, they probably got
voluntold to be in financial crimes.
Not everybody loves this as interestingand sexy as the rest of us find it.
Not everybody does.
And so not only are they having to dofinancial crime investigations, they
are having, they are being asked tolearn an entire new technology that even
(34:55):
the rest of the world hasn't embracedcryptocurrency, but now they've gotta
be in a cryptocurrency investigator.
That's a tall order for someonewho did not come in asking to
be some sort of technologist.
So the real story is thatthey just don't have the time.
They don't have the tools, theydon't have the training to be able
(35:18):
to do this work, and so that's a hugepart of what I'm doing at Operation
Shamrock is how can I get you educated?
How can I get tools in your hands?
How can I give you a communityof people that do this work also
so that you can do better so thatyou're not reinventing the wheel?
Oh, okay.
That leads me to a whole.
Like, why in the world is a nonprofitand I'm grateful that you are, but
(35:41):
that it's coming from a nonprofitas opposed to, I don't know.
Thank you.
Thank you for saying that.
Yes, it's a problem.
Yes, it is a problem, right?
I'm doing a government job.
Yes.
That the government should,there should be a government
position for what I'm doing.
There isn't.
And so I am self-funding at themoment, my desire to make sure that
(36:04):
victims have a place to land whenthey come in to complain about this
crime that is terrorizing our nation.
Well, I hopefully you won't beself-funding for long because
I do think that there is goingto be, there is such a need.
Out there for this, that I can'teven imagine that in a very short
period of time as the wheel getsspinning, that there will be
(36:27):
something fun somewhere for this.
But let, before we get tothat, we've talked about the
financial impact on people.
A couple of things before we get toprevention and awareness to think
what happens when they get caught.
Is anybody being convicted of crime?
Now you said of China, ifsomebody, if a Chinese citizen
gets, something happens, maybe theChinese government gets involved.
(36:48):
We're talking about thousands ofAmerican citizens getting robbed.
Mm-hmm.
Is anybody getting arrested for this?
Is anything happening criminally?
No, and that's a huge pieceof it that I continue to push.
That it is not a mystery.
It is not a who'd done it.
We know who is running these compounds.
(37:09):
They are known criminalsthat have been prosecuted.
They are known criminals that havebeen sanctioned, and they own the
property where this bad activity is.
Is happening.
So yes, I think there is an opportunitythat should be exploited to indict
these people and arrest them whenthey come into a country where we have
(37:31):
cooperative allies ready to arrest them.
We know these people travel.
They don't stay in Cambodia and Myanmar.
Mm-hmm.
They own homes in Australia.
They travel to the United States.
They travel and there'sopportunity to pick them up.
So I think we are remiss.
In not pursuing that typeof enforcement against them?
Well, yeah, because obviouslyif we can evade Panama to get
(37:54):
General Noriega who was involvedin basically money laundering,
then we can do a lot of things.
Let me ask you then, is it knowledgeor is it just will, why aren't these
people being, what's stopping that?
Well, I mean, I've definitely,I. Let me say it this way.
(38:14):
I have been told on repeat that thereis no appetite for pursuing these cases.
It is my hope that with a newadministration, that when that new
administration becomes aware thata foreign bad actor is taking.
(38:39):
A generation's worth of wealth outof the United States to then perhaps
return to the United States and use itto buy out real estate from under us.
It is my hope that thisadministration will take heed.
And we'll take decisive action and put theresources into fighting and fighting for
(39:03):
our citizenry that is really being takenadvantage of by adverse foreign interests.
It does sound like information iskey in this whole, all the way around
from top to bottom, that to informpeople to get the word out on that.
So let's in our last few minutes together.
I would say, let's talk aboutfuture trends, but it sounds
like it's just an ever evolving,and crypto is so complicated and
(39:26):
blockchain is so complicated.
So let's talk about whatthe average person can do.
We've said it's not obvious.
What can the average person do to protectthemselves against these sort of scams?
First thing, if there are platformsthat you do not use and say
WhatsApp, take that off your phone.
(39:46):
You're going to get added toWhatsApp groups and they're gonna
start talking about investments,and that's a dangerous place to be.
Mm-hmm.
You don't wanna be anywhere whereyou could be tricked into something
because they're good tricksters.
Number two, you have to bewildly aware at all times that.
(40:07):
Scammers are trying to trick you andthe way they're going to trick you,
whether it's any one of the scam typeof scams you're looking at, is they
are going to either build trust or ifit's a different type of scam, they're
going to raise your blood pressurequickly, make you need to react quickly
to something and not give you time toreflect before you need to take action.
(40:31):
So my advice for anyone is reallyto treat your phone and your
computer as to use caution with allof that, that when an electronic
communication comes in, be judgemental.
Be worried that somebody is tryingto take your money because they are,
they, yes, somebody will try and takeyour money three times this week.
(40:52):
And so be looking for thosepeople because they are 100%
out there and coming your way.
The last thing I would say is thatwe need to talk amongst each other.
That, my dad called me and hegot hit with a scam on Facebook.
My dad loves a bargain and he lovesHoka sneakers, and he could get
his hocus sneakers for 50% off.
Mm. So he gave him his creditcard and his address, and so
(41:16):
we need to talk about that.
We need to normalize , oh guys, youwon't believe what happened to me.
We need to normalize this so that wetalk about it so that we are educating
our friends to not be victimized inthe same way that we got victimized.
Last thing, and I know you probablycan't answer this, but I do think it's
important, you just named WhatsApp.
There's Telegram, there'sFacebook, there's there.
(41:36):
I was an early adopter of social media andI am the absolute man on the island now
because I can't stand any of it becauseI find it's even LinkedIn, which is a.
A tool that people for business use allthe time is being, it's become accessible.
It's constant.
You have to be aware all the time.
So I, number one, I completelyagree with you on getting
rid of things you don't use.
(41:57):
I'm constantly tellingmy wife, get rid of that.
Get rid of that.
Get rid of that.
Use security methods that aretried and true, all that stuff.
What is the responsibility ofthese social media companies,
especially ones that are based in.
And you may not be able toanswer that, but I do think
that's a part of the puzzle.
Oh, I can get to this 100%.
If these social media companies wantedto stop this, they could make this stop.
(42:23):
They are looking the other waywhen there are massive efforts that
could be made to make this stop.
When we think about what's lawenforcement doing, what's banking doing?
You know what?
Actually both of those industries aretrying pretty hard to game up on this.
Less so from our telcos andour social media companies.
(42:44):
Why?
Business.
Not being regulated.
There's very much a business reasonin keeping all of these eyes on their
platform, and until they are madeto do otherwise, they don't have a
business interest in taking it down.
But I'd argue that we've got amoral imperative at this point,
that this is bigger than business.
(43:05):
This is the decline of Americansociety if we allow it to happen
and we're watching it happen.
It's funny, you see all this differentstuff, the Zuckerbergs and the Bezos
and all this, all the different folksthat are out there and they, this,
that championing of free speech.
But there is a moral part ofthis is that if I'm gathering
what you're saying and I'm.
(43:25):
frightened.
And I'm so grateful that you'reout there doing this but.
I don't know if there's ever been abigger crime in the history of mankind.
The potential is massive.
People are probably not gonnago rob you in your house.
Statistically speaking, itdoesn't happen very often.
But if you look at the statistics of this,it sounds like it's happening every day.
(43:47):
There is a moral imperative.
I don't know what the answer to thatis, Erin, but I am so, so grateful
that you are out there fighting the.
Do the best I can on my end.
I encourage all the listenersout there to talk to their
Uncle Lou or talk to each other.
Don't be afraid to.
I'm grateful for Troy coming on theshow and talk about his own experience.
(44:09):
Any last thoughts you have about this?
Anything that we could doto sport Operation Shamrock?
We could go to your Patreon account, Iguess, if there was one, but what can
we do as citizens who are concerned?
We can be kind.
I think that that is a piece of thisthat is often overlooked is, I'll
tell you what, I do a lot of pressand I, and and frequently when the
(44:31):
camera goes off, that's when someonewill say, yeah, but they're stupid.
Right?
Who's falling for this?
And I think that.
If that's the reaction that I'm gettingafter I've spoken for 45 minutes about
how awful this is, then it shows methat there is a whole segment of society
that thinks these people are dumband doesn't care about fixing this.
(44:56):
So, couple of points to that.
Number one, these are not dumb people.
I guarantee the peopleI talk to have PhDs.
They're doctors, they'relawyers, they're business people.
But number two.
It's bigger than those people.
It's our way of life that's beingtargeted and that we are going to
suffer the effects of losing this wealthin the United States for a long time
(45:21):
to come, not just financially, butalso the loss of trust that we just
can't trust anything we see anymore.
Mm-hmm.
And there are major.
Negative effects of that.
So be kind.
You don't know who has suffered what andyou don't know because people don't wanna
talk about it because they're afraidyou're going to not be very nice to them.
Yeah.
And that probably goes to a lot of ourdiscourse in the society in general.
(45:42):
Well, thank you so muchfor coming on today.
I can't even tell you how mind boggledI am right now, so I'm hoping that
other people get on board with this.
But thank you Aaron West.
If you if anybody wants to know aboutAaron, go to operations shamrock org.
You can read it.
It's a great website.
It's quite beautiful.
Thank you.
I don't know who builtit, but it's quite lovely.
Thank you.
I will post all the stuff inthe show notes information.
(46:05):
If you've been scammed, I'm sureyou could probably reach out to
Aaron or her people and we allhave to be part of the solutions.
Thank you, Aaron.
Thank you so much.
Welcome to the Smarticle podcast.
Today we're going to be entering the worldof pig butchering scams, one of the most
insidious forms of financial fraud today.
If you've ever received a friendly messagefrom a stranger that seems too good to
be true, you might have been a target.
The scams don't just steal money.
They destroy lives, leaving victimsfinancially and emotionally devastated.
Our guest today is a superstar whois on a mission to stop these scam.
(01:16):
Erin West is a globally recognizedspeaker and educator leading the fight
against transnational organized crimewith a relentless focus on disrupting
scam networks and protecting victims.
As the founder of Operation Shamrock, Erinhas built a powerful coalition, uniting
law enforcement, private industry, andglobal stakeholders to combat scams,
(01:38):
link transnational organized crime.
Operations Shamrock is dedicated tobuilding investigative capacity and
equipping law enforcement with toolsto take action and providing real-time
intelligence to industry, ensuringthat criminals have nowhere to hide.
Erin's expertise comes from 26 yearsas a Deputy District attorney in Santa
Clara County, California, where shespent eight years with the React High
(02:01):
Tech task, leading investigations intocryptocurrency enabled crimes, SIM
swapping and digital financial fraud.
She also founded the Crypto Coalition,an international network of nearly 2000
law enforcement professionals focusedon cryptocurrency investigations.
Now through Operation Shamrock, Erinis on a mission to educate, mobilize,
(02:22):
and disrupt raising awareness of scamoperations, empowering law enforcement
worldwide, and delivering actionableintelligence to industry partners
to stop fraud before it happens.
Our passion, leadership, andrelentless pursuit of justice are
driving real change in the fightagainst transnational organized crime.
Welcome everybody.
(02:43):
I'm here with my new bestfriend, Erin West, who runs one
of the coolest organizationsI've ever heard of in my life.
First off, can you just tell us who youare and a little bit about yourself?
Sure.
I'm Erin West.
I was a local prosecutorfor 26 and a half years.
I just retired in Novemberto start this nonprofit.
(03:03):
But when I was a prosecutorfor the last eight years, I was
assigned to a team of detectiveswho specialized in high tech crime.
And while I was there, I became aware of awhole new type of crime that was literally
crushing people called pig butchering.
The more I learned about it, themore I realized that it was at crisis
(03:26):
level and nobody had even heard of it.
And so yeah, I made it my business tostart talking about it all the time
everywhere to anyone who would listen.
And that is my business because it isa really, really destructive type of
scamming that is laser focused at takingthe wealth of the United States away.
(03:49):
That could sum up everything that I'vebeen doing with this series because
it is so pervasive and so frightening.
I actually we're gonna hear laterfrom someone who was actually
scammed in a pig butchering scam,and I think a lot of people think,
oh, that could never happen to me.
And or that only happens to dumb people.
And I could tell folks that it doesn'tjust happen to people that aren't
(04:12):
aware It happens to people everyday.
Let's start
with a definition of what is
pig butchering?
Cuz I'd never heard of it beforetwo weeks ago and I consider
myself a fairly well read guy.
And that's the problem.
This is the biggest threatthat you've never heard of.
This is the world's biggest crime thatnot enough people are talking about.
(04:34):
And so that's why I talkabout it all the time.
'cause I wanna make sure that I've hityour uncle in Iowa and I've hit my next
door neighbor and my kids' soccer coach.
This is where we need toget this story because.
The bankers have heard of aboutit now, law enforcement now knows
what it is, but the fact is middleAmerica does not know what this is,
(04:55):
and it's literally coming for them.
So the way the scam works is I think we'veall gotten those texts on our phone that
appear to be directed to someone else.
Mm-hmm.
And what that is the beginning of a scam.
While it might appear like not a bigdeal and oh, this is kind of scammy,
in fact, that is the first step.
(05:16):
To luring you in on the longcon, that is pig butchering.
What that scammer will do is over a periodof say, 90 days, spend four to five hours
a day texting and really selling you thedream of this fantastic relationship, the
relationship that you've always wanted.
(05:38):
And complimented with photographs of howthe scammer the person, the love interest
for you is living a really high classlife and is driving a beautiful car and
doing expensive travel and living well.
So they get our victims to buy into.
I'm in a relationship with this person,and this is a person of means, and
ultimately the scammer will disclosethat, you know how I afford this, it's
(06:03):
because I invest in cryptocurrency.
And I didn't know how to invest incryptocurrency either, but my uncle
taught me and my uncle could teach you.
And that's when the second dream is sold.
And that is you too couldbe wealthy like this.
And that perfect storm of basic humanwants and needs of wanting to be loved
(06:23):
and then wanting to be well financed isreally too much for people to resist and
they end up losing all of their money.
It.
Shocking.
When I talked to a guy by the name ofTroy who works now, he works for, I
think you guys, you actually know him.
In fact, he know he's one that I know.
He was the one that sicked me onyou . I was like, you have to talk
to Erin West when you talk to Troy.
(06:46):
And he's wonderful because he'sone of these people that says,
look, I'm gonna try to help people.
'cause I do know from my research, andmaybe you could speak a little to this a
little bit, is why don't people report.
Hmm.
The fact that people don't report thiswhen they're not losing $500, they're
losing sometimes hundreds of thousands ofdollars that are going into these scams.
(07:09):
And I would love for you to talk alittle bit about like where these, how
these scams originate and all that.
But why don't people report this?
You're absolutely right about theamount of the loss and the amount of the
loss, no matter how many dollars it isgoing to be everything the victim has.
That's the goal.
So during that time where thescammer is getting to know the
(07:30):
victim, part of their really targetedprocess is to find out everywhere
that the victim is holding money.
Because the way pig butcheringworks is that it doesn't end until
they've taken every last cent.
By the time our victims.
Realize that they've lost everythingand oftentimes have even been lured into
(07:50):
getting a loan and putting more money in.
They're devastated.
This is a whole class of victim that Ihad never seen before and I prosecuted
really severe sexual assaults.
I've put prosecuted homicide.
I prosecute really hate crimes,but this is a person who, by the
time they get to me, has losttheir entire financial footing.
(08:14):
As well as realized that the person theytrusted beyond all others, set them up for
this fall and had been planning it sincethe first time they started speaking.
So our victims are devastated andthen they become humiliated and they
really do a lot of self blame of howcould I have let this happen to me?
(08:37):
And what they're not realizing is.
They are no match, no matter how smartanyone is for a team of people who
do this all day, every day and whoare armed with really sophisticated
psychological techniques and they catchour victims not on their best day, and
(08:58):
then they sell them a whole idea, awhole concept, a whole dream, and our
victims, people want to believe the good.
So anyway, so our victims, there's verymuch a stigma to this and very much when
they report to law enforcement, oftentimesthey are led to believe that this isn't
a crime and that this is a civil matteror that there's nothing that can be done
(09:22):
for them, and that is really traumatizing.
One of the worst things about thisis we don't even understand how
big the problem is because we don'thave enough people reporting it.
Yeah, well, we're banging the drum.
I think that you, with work thatyou're doing and others it's the ba
the drama's being banged for sure.
And hopefully in a year or soonerwe'll have a better understanding.
(09:45):
But let's start withthe term pig butchering.
It is so weird.
When I first heard, I waslike, what in the what?
So where did it come from?
What is it?
And you talked about thissophisticated group of people.
Can you talk a little bit about whatthat is and what that looks like?
Yeah, so I wanna take you backto pre Covid and pre Covid.
(10:07):
A group of Chinese organized gangsters,literally known Chinese criminals,
decided to capitalize on the factthat cryptocurrency is banned in
China and gambling is banned in China.
And so they started building casino towersin Seehan, Oakville, Cambodia, because
they thought, okay, well this is wherewe can build an entire gambling mecca.
(10:30):
And as we sit today, there'ssomething like 133 casinos
in this small seaside town.
What's happened is we all know Covidcame and people weren't moving.
They weren't going to these casinos,and so the criminals pivoted and
they thought, okay, well let'sthink of something else we could do.
Let's do Shah Zupan.
(10:50):
That's their term, translatesto pig butchering, which means.
We're gonna fatten up our victimswith love bombs and all kinds of
dreams that we're gonna sell them.
And then ultimately we are goingto slit their throat, butcher them,
and take everything they have.
And so that is the vilenature of what this is.
This is not a, just like you said, thatpeople aren't losing a small amount
(11:12):
of money, they're losing everything.
It is the most destructive form of theft.
So they call it pig butchering.
And so they, this is run byChinese organized crime and to.
Effectively do this work.
They needed a huge human workforceand to get that workforce, they
started advertising for employeesand they made it seem very real,
(11:34):
like it was a very real job.
And at that time, and currentlythere's a large unemployment problem
in Southeast Asia and in the countriesthat they prey upon, and they're
able to offer an impressive salary.
So people apply to these jobs.
They have interviews for these jobs.
They have every reason tobelieve that it's a legit job.
(11:55):
And then when they take the airline ticketthat the company provides and they fly
to Bangkok, they arrive in Bangkok andthey are, their passports are taken, they
are put on buses, and they are routed toCambodian compounds where they are then
locked down and forced to do this work.
(12:17):
A slave population, are theythere forever or can get out?
So what we know is that they are, thisis happening largely in Cambodia and
in Myanmar and every every operationthat's running this has their own
rules about how people get out.
We know that we've seen some rescueswhere family members have paid a
(12:39):
ransom to get their family member out.
We know of certain countries thathave involved their ambassador
and have gotten people out.
We are in touch with.
People inside the compounds who wantto get out but don't have ransom
payments and will likely stay there.
They're frequently there untileither someone rescues them or
(13:01):
until they can make this payment.
Oh my gosh.
I'm gonna ask the obvious 'causethat's way my brain works.
I'm gonna ask the obvious question.
What in the world is going on inMyanmar and Cambodia with these
government, and how is it possiblethat China, the United States.
Authorities aren't doingsomething about it.
(13:21):
You're asking all the right questions.
Let's take 'em one by one.
So, Myanmar is in a civil war right now.
It's not at all clear who's runninganything and what isn't being
touched in this civil war are themassive compounds that are housing.
I. This enslaved population doingthis work, and that's because
there's too much money in it.
This is a business likewe've never seen before.
(13:44):
This is an amazingly lucrativeoperation that enables the gangsters
running it to pay off all kinds ofprotection so that they're not touched.
When we look at Cambodia, we knowthat this industry makes up half of
the GDP for the country of Cambodia.
(14:05):
Wow.
There's too much money.
We are dealing with a region of the worldwith a embedded corruption problem where
people can be paid to look the other waythat enables these compounds to exist.
But you ask a really important questionabout China and the United States and
their absence in really handling this.
(14:28):
What we have seen is we'veseen China step in where.
They essentially, they set rules andtheir rules were do not target chi
the Chinese population as victimsof the financial scheme and do not
human traffic, Chinese employees.
We don't want Chinese victims oneither side and where the compounds of
(14:51):
violated that we've seen the Chinesestep in and liberate compounds , with
the assistance of people on theground there, we haven't seen.
A large response from the UnitedStates in any part of this.
Why do you think that is?
I wish I knew.
I've spent the last three yearsknocking on doors, speaking politely,
(15:16):
yelling, doing my level best toraise the awareness and the critical
nature of this to the right people.
But what we know for sure is that we have.
A massive illicit economy beingrun by Chinese organized criminals
(15:38):
that is largely unchecked and ishaving no friction put upon it
as we watch them steal an entiregeneration's worth of wealth.
Oh my goodness.
Alright, I'm getting depressed.
Let's talk about the groups of peoplethat they, so who do they target?
Is it specific groups of people?
(15:58):
And then what weapons do they useif that, I don't know if that's the
right word, but how do they identifyand target the victims in general?
I would love to say, I think with thephone numbers, I don't know that that's
targeted at all.
I think that is just a blanket, everysingle phone number that they can
find that is active will be targeted.
(16:19):
Hmm.
But I do know from talking to peopleinside that they do target groups of
people that they assume will be wealthy.
So I know that they invadetravel groups on Facebook.
They invade fancy food groups,wine groups where they think that
they will meet wealthier people.
And from there they tryto begin friendships and.
(16:42):
Romantic relationships,and so that's what they do.
I used to say that I wish I knew who theywere targeting because then I could really
focus on educating that population alone.
But the fact is I've seen victims that arein their twenties up to their eighties.
They literally will go after anyone thatis interested in their scheme of getting
(17:03):
rich by investing in cryptocurrency.
So just to make sure I understandthis is a hundred percent digital.
There's no contact between the people.
This is all done online.
Well, no.
Oh, thank you for asking that.
Oh, because that, I think,is a window of opportunity.
So what we've seen, what weknow about these criminals
is they pivot, pivot, pivot.
(17:24):
And every time we think we're makingany kind of inroad, they pivot.
So one of their more recent pivots hasbeen showing up at people's houses.
So here's how this works.
Instead of having the victims sendthe money electronically, they have
started some, well, in many cases,having the victims go to their bank
(17:46):
and withdraw a significant amount ofcash, then having that cash picked
up by a courier at their home.
To me, that feels like an opportunity,that feels like an opportunity with
people on us soil to make arrestsand to disrupt what they're doing.
So they're buildingthis romantic interest.
Do they ever put in people, likethey send a romantic interest
(18:09):
to the like, hi, I'm so-and-so.
We've been talking online andnow gimme the keys to the crypto.
So that's so funny too.
So it used to be, I've been in this forthree years now and watched it develop.
It used to be we would say if theywon't get on a phone call with you,
then that means they're not real.
Mm-hmm.
Then they started hiringpeople to make phone calls.
Then we'd say if they won't get ona video chat, then they're not real.
(18:30):
Then they figured out ways to do that.
They hired models and now we know they'reusing deep fakes, and now we know that
they're doing a lot of the chats with ai.
So we know that every time we think we.
Have given good advice tovictims, they get around it.
I'm not sure if I answered the question.
It's a nuanced operation.
It's ever changing.
(18:51):
It's really hard to answer that question.
They attack the personthrough these groups.
They try to tug at their emotionalharshing, fine lonely people or whatever.
But I'm a happily married man.
I'm a dad.
I'm pretty busy.
How does somebody like mefall into a trap like this?
Well, I'll tell you, I think everybody,no matter how happily married and
no matter how good they feel abouttheir circumstances, might welcome an
(19:15):
opportunity to make a little extra cash.
Mm-hmm.
Sure.
These people are not preyingon us on our best days.
If you I frequently talk to victimswho would say, God, if it wasn't,
it was such a bad day the day thatperson reached out to me and I
just started chatting with them.
I will tell you that many a married manhas fallen for this, and we can talk
(19:35):
about whether what they were trying toget out of that relationship or not.
I've also talked to married men whowere targeted as a. Hey, I've got this
really impressive investment scheme.
Mm-hmm.
And let me tell you how it works.
I know it's super easy.
If you're listening to a podcast likethis and you're listening to people
talk about this, it's very easy tosay, I don't think that would ever
(19:58):
happen to me, and probably not asyou're sitting here listening to it.
Mm-hmm.
But I guarantee you, you know,someone that this has happened to
in some way, shape or form, theyhave been taken advantage of by
someone online because it's thatpervasive it, it's that ubiquitous.
And so what we really have to do isbe careful about how we talk about it,
(20:21):
because how we talk about it enablespeople to come forward and normalize it.
Mm-hmm.
I try to talk about times, evenin the past year where I have
clicked on something I shouldn'thave because I got tricked.
I talk about what's happened to my dad.
I talk about, my best friend,what's happened to her dad.
(20:42):
I think that there's no onewho's immune from being tricked.
At the end of the day, theanswer is we need to assume every
electronic communication is ascam until proven otherwise.
Wow.
If you don't know that person, they'rea scammer until you've learn otherwise.
And even if you do know that person,sometimes there are sophisticated
(21:04):
ways of basically faking someonethrough a profile or it is everywhere.
There are 330 million people inthis country, and I probably get.
Just random Joe.
Me, I probably get 20 attacks a week.
I've had my LinkedIn profile hacked.
I get smishing attacks all.
It's like, hey, is this so and so?
And you're like what I always tellpeople now is just delete 'em.
(21:28):
Don't even engage becausethey want you to engage.
They want you to engage.
They're gonna try and trick you insome way, but you're also proving
that that is an active phone number.
Mm-hmm.
And the last thing you wanna do is getyourself on yet another list of, at
least this is an active phone number.
We know that this phone number works, sothe amount of attacks on us on the daily,
(21:49):
on the weekly is gone through the roof.
And so we have to always be on guard rightnow in a way that we never had to be.
We've talked about itcould affect everybody.
Is there a typical financial loss forpeople, or is it all over the board?
It runs the gamut.
Yeah.
The typical loss is everything you have.
Oh, boy.
So it's hard to say.
I had a call from a victim in Hawaiithis week who lost $3 million.
(22:14):
Oh.
I spoke with a Canadian veteran who lost25,000, and so each one is excruciating.
Yeah.
Each one is, you know, my Canadian.
Victim was a veteran who justretired from the armed forces.
He had a severance paymentand lost all of it.
It's only getting worse.
(22:34):
It's only getting more frequent andit's, I talk about it in, in the words
of a crisis, we are 100% in a crisis.
I could just hear Uncle Lou say,just give him your information
because you're talking aboutgiving millions of dollars away.
How do they actually getthat information from you?
And secondly, what is the responsibilityor what are the financial institutions,
(22:58):
because there's obviously a papertrail of some sort, I would assume.
But what it, so first part is how arethey getting the information from people?
And second part is what are thefinancial institutions doing about it?
Okay, so let me walk you through alittle bit of how this happens, because
sometimes people who don't understandit completely will say things like,
I would never give away my money.
(23:18):
That's not what's happening here.
So you've met someone online that youbelieve to be now the love of your life,
and that person has isolated you fromthe rest of your family and led you to
believe that they are the only one thatcan be trusted, and that if anybody tries
to tell you that this is a bad idea, it'sbecause they're jealous and they don't
(23:39):
understand the love that you have andthey don't understand cryptocurrency.
And then this trusted person is goingto say, okay, so you can see that
I live a really comfortable life.
I got there from investingin cryptocurrency.
Let me show you how to do it.
And so they'll get our victims to investa small amount of money, whatever small
amount of money is to that victim.
(24:00):
Mm-hmm.
So say it's $5,000, they then taketheir, they get the victim to take
their US dollars from the bank.
Put it into a crypto exchange,which is like a bank for
cryptocurrency, like Coinbase.
Mm-hmm.
And when they put thatmoney into Coinbase, it's an
account in their own name.
Our victim still controls all of it.
(24:22):
They'll then teach ourvictim how to change their US
dollars into cryptocurrency.
So now, instead of USdollars, you have Bitcoin.
And then they say, okay, my unclesays it's a good window for trading,
so let's take your $5,000 worth ofBitcoin and put it in this trading
(24:43):
platform that my uncle recommends andthat I use and that all my money is in.
So our victim.
They think they're putting theirmoney into an investment platform.
It's a domain on the internet.
It looks very real becausethat's how good they are.
They build things that look veryreal, and our victim doesn't have a
lot of experience with cryptocurrencyinvestment platforms, so they have
(25:06):
no reason to doubt that this is real.
They think they're putting their moneyinto it and they see a dashboard that
shows that their money is going up.
Oh my gosh, now it's worth 6,800.
Now it's worth 7,500.
Now it's worth 10,000.
It's doubled.
But really their money has gone down theblockchain into the hands of the scammer,
(25:27):
but they think they are investing moneyand that they are becoming wealthy.
That's when our scammer willthen say, you know what?
My uncle says there's a greatwindow this weekend for $200,000.
And our victims will think, oh, Inever considered putting in that much.
And that's when they use another trickand they say, I'll do it with you.
Let's do it together.
I'll put in a hundred,you put in a hundred.
(25:49):
So our victims think, no way would thisperson put money in a bad investment
and we're gonna do it together.
That shows how much they love me.
They put in their 200,000 and nowit's half a million dollars, and they
think, oh my God, this really works.
I'm gonna be wealthy.
And then they start liquidatingeverything at the request of the scammer.
I am John Dole's son.
(26:09):
Mm-hmm.
So I'm gonna play, my dad was raisedin foster care and orphanages, so he
didn't trust anybody with anything.
Let's go.
So I'm sitting here listening tothis and I'm thinking to myself.
If it sounds too good tobe true, it probably is.
So again, I'm just playing out thatperson, my Uncle Lou, whatever.
Yep.
How is that manipulator?
That scammer?
(26:29):
Are they talking to me digitally?
Are they calling me?
Are they, I know you saythey have now models to do.
How are they doing that to me?
How are they working?
My emotions.
It's mostly text.
It's mostly using tricks.
Like are you saying youdon't trust what I'm saying?
I thought we were in this together.
I thought this was a serious relationship.
Maybe I need to look elsewhere.
(26:50):
Maybe you're not as seriousabout me as I thought you were.
And then that gets Hmmmm theyuse all kinds of psychological
techniques that as we sit here, wethink, I wouldn't fall for that.
But when we are.
Alone in our house, and we've isolatedbecause we really can't trust anybody
with this story because maybe even alittle bit in the back of our head,
(27:10):
we think maybe this isn't right.
So I actually don't wannatell anybody about this.
And the only person I'm trusting is thisperson on the other end of the text.
And they're so pretty and they havesuch a nice life and they seem to really
be into me and they know everythingabout me and they really accept me
as I am and this is gonna work out.
That's where we get, and it's not onday one or day four that this happens.
(27:34):
It's on day 73 where this personhas been in this with you nonstop.
It's hard to.
Explain the endorphin rush.
It's hard to explain the endorphinrush of being in love with the
anticipated endorphin rush of,and I'm also gonna be wealthy.
(27:56):
Oh my goodness.
So, yeah, John Dobelmay not fall for this.
He may be the guy that'snever gonna do this.
But I'll tell you what, I've gotan email box full of people who
would, oh, I think John Dobel would.
Oh, you think you would?
They probably have figured out how totap into our, this can't be, I'm too
smart for this, or it's not gonna happento me because I figured it all out.
(28:18):
Uhhuh, you know, because it's just enough.
I got a LinkedIn contact, somebodysaid to me, and it was just weird.
And I use LinkedIn for business.
I don't use it foranything else, so I, right.
But it was a weird thing and it was like.
Do I know you have.
We met at a conference or somethingand I was like, okay, this is fishy.
Right?
But then they came back and said, haveyou seen a lot of Asian women online?
And I immediately was like, oh, okay.
(28:40):
If I was susceptible, if Iwas like, well, that could be.
Maybe a little strange.
Woo.
Okay.
I could see that I reported thisthing and I also, because I spent
so much time dealing with this rightnow, I could tell that it was ai.
Yes, it was an AI picture and Iwas like, this is an AI picture
and there are some tricks.
(29:01):
I can only speak to LinkedInand plays like that, but look
and see, have they posted?
And they'll get better at that.
They'll start doingall this crazy posting.
Yes, they're good.
So yes, I do think that my dad couldhave been taken in just like I think
I could be taken in just like anybody.
So before we get to like, how do westop it, let's talk about what is,
I want to talk about the financialinstitution's responsibility.
What do they, and then what lawenforcement, I've lost everything.
(29:23):
Mm-hmm.
I'm a widow.
Mm-hmm.
I've had my husband's pension or mywife's pension and now I've lost it.
I go back to Bank of America orwhomever I bank with, what's their
responsibility at this point?
None.
And it's interesting 'cause we wannalook at, right now we're looking at
banking and law enforcement and yes,those two should be held accountable.
(29:47):
That is the work that I do, isto try and raise the standard.
Of the service that you are going toget from law enforcement and the service
that you're going to get from banking,that is the job that I've given myself.
I think that there are plenty of bankswho will let you walk right out the
(30:10):
door or will let you easily wire thisfrom your account where you don't
even have to talk to anybody to do it.
Then there are others where I'm just,I was just texting with a friend
in Boise where they will literallyalmost stand in front of the door
and tell you that this is a scamand that you really shouldn't do it.
(30:31):
The banks are often caught inbetween a rock and a hard place.
Mm-hmm.
When they have a victim comingin, who's demanding this, who's
been well coached, about what tosay and who wants their money.
Yes, banks, but banks should be havingbetter controls about how, where this
money is going and how it's going.
They need, we need better standardsand better education at the front
(30:54):
lines, and we need better education.
This is something we're workingon talking to victims about.
What could have turnedyou around at that point?
Like what could someone havesaid to you at that point that
might have made you turn around?
It's mind boggling because I do thinkit's so, the tentacles are so wide.
You can't really blame the bank.
They've got a customer and thecustomer wants to do something.
(31:15):
Are they responsible for makingsure they don't do something dumb?
Okay.
Let's talk really quicklyabout law enforcement.
I have a lot of respectfor law enforcement.
I have a lot of respect for districtattorneys and people that it's hard.
There's a lot stuff outthere and a lot of rules and.
Let's talk about where law enforcementis and where law enforcement should go.
(31:40):
Yeah, I'd love to, and as someonewho spent my working career in
law enforcement, it's important tome that victims get good service
when they come to law enforcement.
These victims are people who have workedtheir whole lives and followed rules and
expect law enforcement to be there when.
(32:02):
Their entire livelihoodhas been stolen from them.
Mm-hmm.
Law enforcement would take their report iftheir bike was stolen from them, if their
car was stolen from them, but somehowwhen it becomes their entire net worth,
then there's a whole bias against themthat comes down from law enforcement on
in some places, and that's difficult.
So what I will tell you is, yes, victimsare having a very difficult time in
(32:27):
some locations reporting this crime.
That became apparent to me when myteam was able to recover some money for
victims and wanted to educate Dallasbecause we found money belonging to
Dallas victims and say, Hey Dallas,we've got some money for your victims.
Do you wanna engage in this with us?
(32:48):
And they were like, wedon't do cryptocurrency.
Same thing in California, same thing.
And so what we found was a huge gapin law enforcement's ability to take
these reports and do anything with them.
And so that's why I built the Cryptocoalition because I realized, oh.
I live in a bubble because I work witha task force that is well educated
(33:11):
and well funded by the state ofCalifornia, and not everybody has that.
Mm-hmm.
So I made it my mission to find othersthat knew how to do this and then use
those people to teach others in theUnited States how to do this work.
And so I built this coalitionthat's gone from 85.
Members of law enforcement totoday, over 2000 active members
(33:32):
of law enforcement that are doingcryptocurrency investigations.
So I'm working to build the groundfloor when people come in that
their, at least their report istaken and something is done with it.
It's fascinating to me that someonecould show up at my door with a gun.
Rob, I might have money in a little safe.
Yep.
They take the money.
(33:52):
Law enforcement would be all over that.
I'd have fbi I'd have at, I'd haveeverybody in the world on that.
And so is, and again, I don't think thatlaw enforcement are like, ah, whatever.
This person got screwedout of their money.
Oh, well I don't thinkthat They don't care.
So what is it?
Is it just a lack of educationbecause crypto is so complicated?
Is that what thesecriminals are relying on?
(34:13):
That it's just too muchto try to track this down?
I'm glad you're giving me theopportunity to explain, because
I think this is important.
When you think of the financial crimesdetective at any agency, I. They probably
got voluntold to be there for a lotof people who become police officers.
They wanna be out on the streetsand they want to be fighting crime
(34:34):
every day on the streets, and sothere's probably, they probably got
voluntold to be in financial crimes.
Not everybody loves this as interestingand sexy as the rest of us find it.
Not everybody does.
And so not only are they having to dofinancial crime investigations, they
are having, they are being asked tolearn an entire new technology that even
(34:55):
the rest of the world hasn't embracedcryptocurrency, but now they've gotta
be in a cryptocurrency investigator.
That's a tall order for someonewho did not come in asking to
be some sort of technologist.
So the real story is thatthey just don't have the time.
They don't have the tools, theydon't have the training to be able
(35:18):
to do this work, and so that's a hugepart of what I'm doing at Operation
Shamrock is how can I get you educated?
How can I get tools in your hands?
How can I give you a communityof people that do this work also
so that you can do better so thatyou're not reinventing the wheel?
Oh, okay.
That leads me to a whole.
Like, why in the world is a nonprofitand I'm grateful that you are, but
(35:41):
that it's coming from a nonprofitas opposed to, I don't know.
Thank you.
Thank you for saying that.
Yes, it's a problem.
Yes, it is a problem, right?
I'm doing a government job.
Yes.
That the government should,there should be a government
position for what I'm doing.
There isn't.
And so I am self-funding at themoment, my desire to make sure that
(36:04):
victims have a place to land whenthey come in to complain about this
crime that is terrorizing our nation.
Well, I hopefully you won't beself-funding for long because
I do think that there is goingto be, there is such a need.
Out there for this, that I can'teven imagine that in a very short
period of time as the wheel getsspinning, that there will be
(36:27):
something fun somewhere for this.
But let, before we get tothat, we've talked about the
financial impact on people.
A couple of things before we get toprevention and awareness to think
what happens when they get caught.
Is anybody being convicted of crime?
Now you said of China, ifsomebody, if a Chinese citizen
gets, something happens, maybe theChinese government gets involved.
(36:48):
We're talking about thousands ofAmerican citizens getting robbed.
Mm-hmm.
Is anybody getting arrested for this?
Is anything happening criminally?
No, and that's a huge pieceof it that I continue to push.
That it is not a mystery.
It is not a who'd done it.
We know who is running these compounds.
(37:09):
They are known criminalsthat have been prosecuted.
They are known criminals that havebeen sanctioned, and they own the
property where this bad activity is.
Is happening.
So yes, I think there is an opportunitythat should be exploited to indict
these people and arrest them whenthey come into a country where we have
(37:31):
cooperative allies ready to arrest them.
We know these people travel.
They don't stay in Cambodia and Myanmar.
Mm-hmm.
They own homes in Australia.
They travel to the United States.
They travel and there'sopportunity to pick them up.
So I think we are remiss.
In not pursuing that typeof enforcement against them?
Well, yeah, because obviouslyif we can evade Panama to get
(37:54):
General Noriega who was involvedin basically money laundering,
then we can do a lot of things.
Let me ask you then, is it knowledgeor is it just will, why aren't these
people being, what's stopping that?
Well, I mean, I've definitely,I. Let me say it this way.
(38:14):
I have been told on repeat that thereis no appetite for pursuing these cases.
It is my hope that with a newadministration, that when that new
administration becomes aware thata foreign bad actor is taking.
(38:39):
A generation's worth of wealth outof the United States to then perhaps
return to the United States and use itto buy out real estate from under us.
It is my hope that thisadministration will take heed.
And we'll take decisive action and put theresources into fighting and fighting for
(39:03):
our citizenry that is really being takenadvantage of by adverse foreign interests.
It does sound like information iskey in this whole, all the way around
from top to bottom, that to informpeople to get the word out on that.
So let's in our last few minutes together.
I would say, let's talk aboutfuture trends, but it sounds
like it's just an ever evolving,and crypto is so complicated and
(39:26):
blockchain is so complicated.
So let's talk about whatthe average person can do.
We've said it's not obvious.
What can the average person do to protectthemselves against these sort of scams?
First thing, if there are platformsthat you do not use and say
WhatsApp, take that off your phone.
(39:46):
You're going to get added toWhatsApp groups and they're gonna
start talking about investments,and that's a dangerous place to be.
Mm-hmm.
You don't wanna be anywhere whereyou could be tricked into something
because they're good tricksters.
Number two, you have to bewildly aware at all times that.
(40:07):
Scammers are trying to trick you andthe way they're going to trick you,
whether it's any one of the scam typeof scams you're looking at, is they
are going to either build trust or ifit's a different type of scam, they're
going to raise your blood pressurequickly, make you need to react quickly
to something and not give you time toreflect before you need to take action.
(40:31):
So my advice for anyone is reallyto treat your phone and your
computer as to use caution with allof that, that when an electronic
communication comes in, be judgemental.
Be worried that somebody is tryingto take your money because they are,
they, yes, somebody will try and takeyour money three times this week.
(40:52):
And so be looking for thosepeople because they are 100%
out there and coming your way.
The last thing I would say is thatwe need to talk amongst each other.
That, my dad called me and hegot hit with a scam on Facebook.
My dad loves a bargain and he lovesHoka sneakers, and he could get
his hocus sneakers for 50% off.
Mm. So he gave him his creditcard and his address, and so
(41:16):
we need to talk about that.
We need to normalize , oh guys, youwon't believe what happened to me.
We need to normalize this so that wetalk about it so that we are educating
our friends to not be victimized inthe same way that we got victimized.
Last thing, and I know you probablycan't answer this, but I do think it's
important, you just named WhatsApp.
There's Telegram, there'sFacebook, there's there.
(41:36):
I was an early adopter of social media andI am the absolute man on the island now
because I can't stand any of it becauseI find it's even LinkedIn, which is a.
A tool that people for business use allthe time is being, it's become accessible.
It's constant.
You have to be aware all the time.
So I, number one, I completelyagree with you on getting
rid of things you don't use.
(41:57):
I'm constantly tellingmy wife, get rid of that.
Get rid of that.
Get rid of that.
Use security methods that aretried and true, all that stuff.
What is the responsibility ofthese social media companies,
especially ones that are based in.
And you may not be able toanswer that, but I do think
that's a part of the puzzle.
Oh, I can get to this 100%.
If these social media companies wantedto stop this, they could make this stop.
(42:23):
They are looking the other waywhen there are massive efforts that
could be made to make this stop.
When we think about what's lawenforcement doing, what's banking doing?
You know what?
Actually both of those industries aretrying pretty hard to game up on this.
Less so from our telcos andour social media companies.
(42:44):
Why?
Business.
Not being regulated.
There's very much a business reasonin keeping all of these eyes on their
platform, and until they are madeto do otherwise, they don't have a
business interest in taking it down.
But I'd argue that we've got amoral imperative at this point,
that this is bigger than business.
(43:05):
This is the decline of Americansociety if we allow it to happen
and we're watching it happen.
It's funny, you see all this differentstuff, the Zuckerbergs and the Bezos
and all this, all the different folksthat are out there and they, this,
that championing of free speech.
But there is a moral part ofthis is that if I'm gathering
what you're saying and I'm.
(43:25):
frightened.
And I'm so grateful that you'reout there doing this but.
I don't know if there's ever been abigger crime in the history of mankind.
The potential is massive.
People are probably not gonnago rob you in your house.
Statistically speaking, itdoesn't happen very often.
But if you look at the statistics of this,it sounds like it's happening every day.
(43:47):
There is a moral imperative.
I don't know what the answer to thatis, Erin, but I am so, so grateful
that you are out there fighting the.
Do the best I can on my end.
I encourage all the listenersout there to talk to their
Uncle Lou or talk to each other.
Don't be afraid to.
I'm grateful for Troy coming on theshow and talk about his own experience.
(44:09):
Any last thoughts you have about this?
Anything that we could doto sport Operation Shamrock?
We could go to your Patreon account, Iguess, if there was one, but what can
we do as citizens who are concerned?
We can be kind.
I think that that is a piece of thisthat is often overlooked is, I'll
tell you what, I do a lot of pressand I, and and frequently when the
(44:31):
camera goes off, that's when someonewill say, yeah, but they're stupid.
Right?
Who's falling for this?
And I think that.
If that's the reaction that I'm gettingafter I've spoken for 45 minutes about
how awful this is, then it shows methat there is a whole segment of society
that thinks these people are dumband doesn't care about fixing this.
(44:56):
So, couple of points to that.
Number one, these are not dumb people.
I guarantee the peopleI talk to have PhDs.
They're doctors, they'relawyers, they're business people.
But number two.
It's bigger than those people.
It's our way of life that's beingtargeted and that we are going to
suffer the effects of losing this wealthin the United States for a long time
(45:21):
to come, not just financially, butalso the loss of trust that we just
can't trust anything we see anymore.
Mm-hmm.
And there are major.
Negative effects of that.
So be kind.
You don't know who has suffered what andyou don't know because people don't wanna
talk about it because they're afraidyou're going to not be very nice to them.
Yeah.
And that probably goes to a lot of ourdiscourse in the society in general.
(45:42):
Well, thank you so muchfor coming on today.
I can't even tell you how mind boggledI am right now, so I'm hoping that
other people get on board with this.
But thank you Aaron West.
If you if anybody wants to know aboutAaron, go to operations shamrock org.
You can read it.
It's a great website.
It's quite beautiful.
Thank you.
I don't know who builtit, but it's quite lovely.
Thank you.
I will post all the stuff inthe show notes information.
(46:05):
If you've been scammed, I'm sureyou could probably reach out to
Aaron or her people and we allhave to be part of the solutions.
Thank you, Aaron.
Thank you so much.
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