In this episode, hosts Larry and Brandon interview Chris Marchand, an Anglican priest and podcaster, to discuss his podcast 'Wall of Silence,' which tackles sexual abuse within the ACNA (Anglican Church of North America). The conversation delves into the origins and purpose of the podcast, abuse in church settings, and the challenges faced by victims and advocates when addressing such issues. The episode also touches on the broader cultural implications and the resistance often encountered when trying to bring these dark truths to light.
00:00 Introduction to Chris Marchand
00:43 The Wall of Silence Podcast
01:03 Five Seconds of Silence
01:40 Background on the ACNA
02:36 Starting the Wall of Silence
04:02 Challenges in Addressing Abuse
09:13 Personal Reflections and Conflicts
13:01 Concluding Remarks and Next Episode Preview
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:16):
Chris Marchand is a priest in the ACNA.
If you don't know what that is,that's the Anglican church of
America, a long time pot, NorthAmerica, excuse me, North America.
Sorry, Brandon.
These mainline churchesreally freaked me out.
He's an educator, a long time podcasterand having producer and host of teen
tent talks and post consumer reports.
(00:36):
Chris is a guy who loves lots of things.
He loves God, everybody.
He loves his family, lovesthe arch, loves tennis.
He loves food.
Brandon has been a little obsessed withyour podcast, Chris, Wall of Silence.
We're going to talk about that, but I'dreally like to just talk about homemade
pizza because your podcast is so serious.
Like I literally have bittenoff all of my fingernails.
Brandon's been hitting his dashboard.
(00:58):
It is some seriousbusiness what you're doing.
So Brandon, you want tostart with wall of silence?
I will.
But first thing I'm going todo is we do on our show, Chris,
we do five seconds of silence.
And the reason we do that is becauseLarry fundamentally believes that
most Americans or people neverget any silence in their day.
So we're going to do our, we've neverdone this with an interviewee before.
(01:19):
We've never done one.
We're doing it with you becauseThat's how much I feel like
we need silence on this show.
Hold on a sec.
Just real quick.
We invited Chris on the show to not speak.
Is that what was going on here?
That's exactly what's going on.
Five seconds of silence starting rightnow, brought to you by the Smarticle
podcast and the wall of silence.
(01:40):
Chris Marchand is, Larrysaid, is an Anglican priest.
Now I'm not going to givethe background on the ACNA.
Larry always gets mad at mebecause he says I filibuster,
but I am a member of the ACNA.
I am a member in good standing The ACNAis the Anglican Church of North America.
It split off about, I think, what, 10years ago from the Episcopal Church.
It's a little bit moreconservative, blah, blah, blah.
(02:03):
Chris does this podcastcalled the wall of silence.
I found this podcast because a friendof mine from the West coast said,
Hey dude, do you, you love podcasts?
Do you, have you heard this thing yet?
I'm like, no, what are you talking about?
So he sent me a link and it was.
The day that you said the wall ofsilence podcast has been silenced.
So I was like, I'm curious.
(02:24):
For the record, you're keeping himsilenced by this long question.
But go on.
I know, I know, I know, I know.
So the wall of silence is a podcast thattalks about sexual abuse within the ACNA.
So I will pitch that to you, Chris.
Can you explain to us how you startedit, why you started it, and what it is?
Well, I started it because Iobserved what was going on in my
(02:45):
own denomination, and this wouldhave been in the summer of 2021.
Which, we were all in a mess.
We were, and we were all bored sittingaround needing something to do.
But, what ended up happening in thesummer of 2021 is A group of women
going forward with what has happened tothem at a church in Wheaton, Illinois,
(03:06):
which is a a suburb of Chicago.
There's Wheaton College that's there.
And I have my own podcast.
I was partnering with a Britishtheologian and that podcast was mostly
interviews, , bring on a theologian,bring on a historian, bring on, Somebody
working with people around the worldand but then we started to try to tell
other stories and in different waysand more documentary form and as I just
(03:28):
kept listening to their stories, butalso watching their online presence,
seeing how no headway was being made.
It seemed like every time they updated.
It was being updated with somethingthat nothing was actually happening.
It was more stonewalling of progress.
And I thought, I just wantto help them tell this story.
I feel like people need to hear it.
(03:49):
You know, it's interesting.
We're on audio right now.
I love to read, but I thinkthere's something powerful
about the presence of a person.
And so I wanted to be able to helptell their story where it's there.
It's in their own voices.
So when you first discovered this orstarted thinking about it, did you
know anything about the abuse stuff?
Or were you just reading online?
Like most people were in 2021?
(04:09):
Yeah, zero, zero.
I knew zero.
I knew of the church, the the churchis church of the resurrection is pretty
well known among Anglicans in our state.
, it's not necessarily the megachurch, but it's like a pretty large
Anglican church and there's nota lot of large Anglican churches.
Chris.
So you mentioned this in the podcast that.
Human beings like to listen to drama,these big, kind of meaty, like,
(04:32):
true crime stories are a big deal.
You mentioned Shakespearetelling lots of tragedies.
Abuse is everywhere.
It's in families, it's in businesses.
What's the difference betweenall of that and abuse in,
specifically, a church setting?
Is there a difference?
Oh, you know, I don't know.
I think maybe the difference isthe way that it's handled when the
(04:57):
conversation comes up and then thiskind of in some senses leads to
Myself in my own story, because maybeit's very similar to any type of
culture.
I think of like a police culture.
I think of military culture.
Maybe somebody else can chime inhere where there's a, there is
(05:19):
an an assumed set of allegiance.
And so the clergy very muchhave to fall in line with.
with what is happening.
And so this is why you haven't seenvery many other priests speaking
out, because it gets tamped down.
You're going against the brotherhood.
And then that kind of spreads out intohow a congregation honors their leaders.
(05:40):
And this is really conflicting becauseHey, I want to live in a world where
I want to honor my leaders too.
And, but what do we do when there'sa split, when there's some kind
of oh, things are cracking here.
And how do we handle this?
Am I being a rebellious, am Istirring up a horrible contentious
spirit in my community and ruiningeverything by addressing abuse?
(06:04):
And so, We all tend to feel like weare going against the whole world that
is around us, as if the abuse itselfwasn't doing that in the first place.
I want to chime in just on that, becauseI feel like the church is supposed
to, in theory, teach about Jesus.
Jesus never said abuse people.
Is this sense that The church is doing somuch good that, hey, you keep, we're going
(06:28):
to silence your tiny one story of abusebecause we're, because the greater good
of all that we're doing is worth more thanyour story of one person being abused.
That's great.
I have spent, that's a great question.
I've spent a lot of hoursreading people's stories.
And I'm working on a story right now witha woman who worked with this diocese.
(06:48):
Which is the grouping of churches.
And I don't want to say who sheis right now, but her story is
going to come out in a few weeks.
And I think it's a whole, a lot ofpeople lost in this swirl of yes, we
are doing God's work and speaking aboutthis in certain ways are really, really
addressing it will ruin that work.
I've read so many emails where it'sreally conflicting because it's not always
(07:12):
people just treating others awfully.
There's a way of pushingpeople to the side.
And saying, yeah, we're notgoing to go that direction.
And then the victim or the survivoror the advocate, they get silenced.
And then they're like, Oh, I guessI was working with these people,
but now I'm seen as a threat.
And then eventually, and maybethis is how online culture works.
(07:35):
Then there are people likethis happened with Joanna.
She's not a Christian, and Idon't know about you guys, but
I know a few non Christians.
And I wouldn't speak about Joannapublicly the way that the people
in this church spoke about her.
Because I, these are people that I love.
These are, like, one of my best friendsin the world is no longer a Christian.
(07:57):
And we talk, five times a weekor, you know, text back and forth.
I'm like, who cares ifshe's not a Christian?
She's telling us she's been abused.
Larry might not be aChristian anymore, Chris.
So we're, should I keep talking to him?
Is it okay?
I feel like as a priest, youmight want to talk to him.
You kind of touched on thisa little bit on this idea.
Now I was raised Catholic.
So it was like.
There's very much this is thevoice of God in front of me.
(08:19):
The priest is the voice ofGod, but this is happening.
This is not just happeningin the Catholic church.
It's happening in the Anglican church.
It's happening in the SBC, theSouthern Baptist convention.
It's happening in churches allacross America and the world.
Yeah.
When you talk about this, one ofthe things that makes me pound my
Dashboard, I literally got choked upwhen I was hearing Joanna's story.
(08:40):
And again, your episode seven, the womanthat Goewey that just talked about I
was like, Oh my, how can you not hearthese people and feel for them as a
Christian or just as a human being?
So my question is, whydoes this keep happening?
Yeah.
I thought about that.
And when we're recording this, it'sthe day after a presidential debate.
(09:03):
Yes.
And.
One of the main approaches to anykind of political campaign is fear.
I guess it's worth noting.
I had a priest I sent, well, there'ssome things that I haven't actually
necessarily talked about yet.
And I'm sorting through what to talkabout, but I sent my bishop's letter to
(09:24):
somebody and then, and I had them lookover my bishop sent me a letter to stop.
To pause the podcast and thispriest, he responded back.
He said, I sense a lot of fear.
I sense a lot of fear in this letter.
And I guess maybe it's just worth takingstock of what we're all potentially
capable of silencing somebody else.
(09:46):
I will say this.
I guess I came on and I thinking,what am I going to talk about today?
One of my big regrets about all this,I don't know about regrets, or it's
one of my big conflicts, is I hadanother meeting with my bishop in July,
and there was another priest there,and there were other priests in this
meeting, and the, he said, now, none ofthis is gonna end up on Twitter, right?
(10:13):
We, can we agree on that?
And I had spent an hour being barragedwith Questions and confronted with my own
actions and all this stuff and trying togo back and forth and reaching clarity.
And in the moment I said, Oh yeah, sure.
Of course, of course.
And I regret that.
I think because the assumptionof that meeting and it was told
(10:37):
to me before and afterwards wasthis is a pastoral meeting, right?
And it didn't feel likea pastoral meeting.
And so I'm sitting here nowtoday questioning, Oh, if I say
this, am I going to get sued?
Am I going to lose all of my community?
My friends.
So when you ask like, whydoes this keep happening?
(10:58):
I think it's, it'sreally easy to be afraid.
Even for us, if we're just a local churchgoer, like it's just easier to shut up.
And to allow it to happen now thegreater thing is and there's a new
one this week or in the past Weekthere's this it's called morning star.
Have you heard of morning star there?
There's this kind of prophetic guynamed rick joiner and there's another
(11:19):
scandal that's brewed i'm scaredof prophetic guys But yes, yeah.
Oh, it's funny.
I grew up in the the assembliesof god Hey, wait a minute.
Did you go to this?
Did you go to the same snakecharming church as brandon?
We've been there, done that.
Yeah.
Okay.
Did you actually go to one of those?
My mom took us from a Catholic church.
So imagine this Chris.
To from a catholic church to an aogchurch for three years And it was
(11:42):
literally one of the most scarringexperiences of my entire life personally
mentally and spiritually But wellbrandon, that's interesting I grew up
catholic as well until I was like sixand then assemblies of god until I was
an adult nice Yeah, we need to do ourown podcast on that conversion crest.
We'll just do that show.
There we go.
I mean There's some interesting stories Iwould say my church was not in that sense.
(12:07):
Crazy.
There was prophetic things.
The, I guess the point that I wannabring up is why, and it's a question
maybe back to all of us, is Yeah, whyis sexual abuse, why is manipulation
so rampant amongst church leaders?
This is Mm-Hmm, . This to me issomething that's really disturbing.
Along those lines the main thingthat I got out of your podcast.
(12:30):
It could be religion.
It could be whatever.
When someone's saying, don't talkabout this, be silent on this, whether
it's in a relationship, whether it'stheology, whatever it is, if someone's
like, Hey, don't talk about this,then they're trying to cover it up.
And I don't like, you're supposedto have close, intimate friends and
community to talk about everything.
(12:51):
Like your bad thoughts,your good thoughts.
And some, once someone's telling youto be silent, that's what it's wrong.
That's what, whatever that isin life, that's what's wrong.
Well, thanks forlistening to today's show.
This is a first for us.
We have never done a two part showbefore, but we knew that this was going
to be a long show and we think it's areally important show and we're really
(13:13):
grateful that Chris would come on.
We're going to release thisfirst part one episode today.
Remember to find Chris's podcast,The Wall of Silence, you'll find it
anywhere where you find podcasts.
What the work he's doing is really,really important and we're really
grateful that you would come on today.
Take care.
We look forward to being with younext week and we hope that you're
looking forward to hearing parttwo of the Chris Marchand and
(13:34):
the Wall of Silence interview.
Chris Marchand is a priest in the ACNA.
If you don't know what that is,that's the Anglican church of
America, a long time pot, NorthAmerica, excuse me, North America.
Sorry, Brandon.
These mainline churchesreally freaked me out.
He's an educator, a long time podcasterand having producer and host of teen
tent talks and post consumer reports.
(00:36):
Chris is a guy who loves lots of things.
He loves God, everybody.
He loves his family, lovesthe arch, loves tennis.
He loves food.
Brandon has been a little obsessed withyour podcast, Chris, Wall of Silence.
We're going to talk about that, but I'dreally like to just talk about homemade
pizza because your podcast is so serious.
Like I literally have bittenoff all of my fingernails.
Brandon's been hitting his dashboard.
(00:58):
It is some seriousbusiness what you're doing.
So Brandon, you want tostart with wall of silence?
I will.
But first thing I'm going todo is we do on our show, Chris,
we do five seconds of silence.
And the reason we do that is becauseLarry fundamentally believes that
most Americans or people neverget any silence in their day.
So we're going to do our, we've neverdone this with an interviewee before.
(01:19):
We've never done one.
We're doing it with you becauseThat's how much I feel like
we need silence on this show.
Hold on a sec.
Just real quick.
We invited Chris on the show to not speak.
Is that what was going on here?
That's exactly what's going on.
Five seconds of silence starting rightnow, brought to you by the Smarticle
podcast and the wall of silence.
(01:40):
Chris Marchand is, Larrysaid, is an Anglican priest.
Now I'm not going to givethe background on the ACNA.
Larry always gets mad at mebecause he says I filibuster,
but I am a member of the ACNA.
I am a member in good standing The ACNAis the Anglican Church of North America.
It split off about, I think, what, 10years ago from the Episcopal Church.
It's a little bit moreconservative, blah, blah, blah.
(02:03):
Chris does this podcastcalled the wall of silence.
I found this podcast because a friendof mine from the West coast said,
Hey dude, do you, you love podcasts?
Do you, have you heard this thing yet?
I'm like, no, what are you talking about?
So he sent me a link and it was.
The day that you said the wall ofsilence podcast has been silenced.
So I was like, I'm curious.
(02:24):
For the record, you're keeping himsilenced by this long question.
But go on.
I know, I know, I know, I know.
So the wall of silence is a podcast thattalks about sexual abuse within the ACNA.
So I will pitch that to you, Chris.
Can you explain to us how you startedit, why you started it, and what it is?
Well, I started it because Iobserved what was going on in my
(02:45):
own denomination, and this wouldhave been in the summer of 2021.
Which, we were all in a mess.
We were, and we were all bored sittingaround needing something to do.
But, what ended up happening in thesummer of 2021 is A group of women
going forward with what has happened tothem at a church in Wheaton, Illinois,
(03:06):
which is a a suburb of Chicago.
There's Wheaton College that's there.
And I have my own podcast.
I was partnering with a Britishtheologian and that podcast was mostly
interviews, , bring on a theologian,bring on a historian, bring on, Somebody
working with people around the worldand but then we started to try to tell
other stories and in different waysand more documentary form and as I just
(03:28):
kept listening to their stories, butalso watching their online presence,
seeing how no headway was being made.
It seemed like every time they updated.
It was being updated with somethingthat nothing was actually happening.
It was more stonewalling of progress.
And I thought, I just wantto help them tell this story.
I feel like people need to hear it.
(03:49):
You know, it's interesting.
We're on audio right now.
I love to read, but I thinkthere's something powerful
about the presence of a person.
And so I wanted to be able to helptell their story where it's there.
It's in their own voices.
So when you first discovered this orstarted thinking about it, did you
know anything about the abuse stuff?
Or were you just reading online?
Like most people were in 2021?
(04:09):
Yeah, zero, zero.
I knew zero.
I knew of the church, the the churchis church of the resurrection is pretty
well known among Anglicans in our state.
, it's not necessarily the megachurch, but it's like a pretty large
Anglican church and there's nota lot of large Anglican churches.
Chris.
So you mentioned this in the podcast that.
Human beings like to listen to drama,these big, kind of meaty, like,
(04:32):
true crime stories are a big deal.
You mentioned Shakespearetelling lots of tragedies.
Abuse is everywhere.
It's in families, it's in businesses.
What's the difference betweenall of that and abuse in,
specifically, a church setting?
Is there a difference?
Oh, you know, I don't know.
I think maybe the difference isthe way that it's handled when the
(04:57):
conversation comes up and then thiskind of in some senses leads to
Myself in my own story, because maybeit's very similar to any type of
culture.
I think of like a police culture.
I think of military culture.
Maybe somebody else can chime inhere where there's a, there is
(05:19):
an an assumed set of allegiance.
And so the clergy very muchhave to fall in line with.
with what is happening.
And so this is why you haven't seenvery many other priests speaking
out, because it gets tamped down.
You're going against the brotherhood.
And then that kind of spreads out intohow a congregation honors their leaders.
(05:40):
And this is really conflicting becauseHey, I want to live in a world where
I want to honor my leaders too.
And, but what do we do when there'sa split, when there's some kind
of oh, things are cracking here.
And how do we handle this?
Am I being a rebellious, am Istirring up a horrible contentious
spirit in my community and ruiningeverything by addressing abuse?
(06:04):
And so, We all tend to feel like weare going against the whole world that
is around us, as if the abuse itselfwasn't doing that in the first place.
I want to chime in just on that, becauseI feel like the church is supposed
to, in theory, teach about Jesus.
Jesus never said abuse people.
Is this sense that The church is doing somuch good that, hey, you keep, we're going
(06:28):
to silence your tiny one story of abusebecause we're, because the greater good
of all that we're doing is worth more thanyour story of one person being abused.
That's great.
I have spent, that's a great question.
I've spent a lot of hoursreading people's stories.
And I'm working on a story right now witha woman who worked with this diocese.
(06:48):
Which is the grouping of churches.
And I don't want to say who sheis right now, but her story is
going to come out in a few weeks.
And I think it's a whole, a lot ofpeople lost in this swirl of yes, we
are doing God's work and speaking aboutthis in certain ways are really, really
addressing it will ruin that work.
I've read so many emails where it'sreally conflicting because it's not always
(07:12):
people just treating others awfully.
There's a way of pushingpeople to the side.
And saying, yeah, we're notgoing to go that direction.
And then the victim or the survivoror the advocate, they get silenced.
And then they're like, Oh, I guessI was working with these people,
but now I'm seen as a threat.
And then eventually, and maybethis is how online culture works.
(07:35):
Then there are people likethis happened with Joanna.
She's not a Christian, and Idon't know about you guys, but
I know a few non Christians.
And I wouldn't speak about Joannapublicly the way that the people
in this church spoke about her.
Because I, these are people that I love.
These are, like, one of my best friendsin the world is no longer a Christian.
(07:57):
And we talk, five times a weekor, you know, text back and forth.
I'm like, who cares ifshe's not a Christian?
She's telling us she's been abused.
Larry might not be aChristian anymore, Chris.
So we're, should I keep talking to him?
Is it okay?
I feel like as a priest, youmight want to talk to him.
You kind of touched on thisa little bit on this idea.
Now I was raised Catholic.
So it was like.
There's very much this is thevoice of God in front of me.
(08:19):
The priest is the voice ofGod, but this is happening.
This is not just happeningin the Catholic church.
It's happening in the Anglican church.
It's happening in the SBC, theSouthern Baptist convention.
It's happening in churches allacross America and the world.
Yeah.
When you talk about this, one ofthe things that makes me pound my
Dashboard, I literally got choked upwhen I was hearing Joanna's story.
(08:40):
And again, your episode seven, the womanthat Goewey that just talked about I
was like, Oh my, how can you not hearthese people and feel for them as a
Christian or just as a human being?
So my question is, whydoes this keep happening?
Yeah.
I thought about that.
And when we're recording this, it'sthe day after a presidential debate.
(09:03):
Yes.
And.
One of the main approaches to anykind of political campaign is fear.
I guess it's worth noting.
I had a priest I sent, well, there'ssome things that I haven't actually
necessarily talked about yet.
And I'm sorting through what to talkabout, but I sent my bishop's letter to
(09:24):
somebody and then, and I had them lookover my bishop sent me a letter to stop.
To pause the podcast and thispriest, he responded back.
He said, I sense a lot of fear.
I sense a lot of fear in this letter.
And I guess maybe it's just worth takingstock of what we're all potentially
capable of silencing somebody else.
(09:46):
I will say this.
I guess I came on and I thinking,what am I going to talk about today?
One of my big regrets about all this,I don't know about regrets, or it's
one of my big conflicts, is I hadanother meeting with my bishop in July,
and there was another priest there,and there were other priests in this
meeting, and the, he said, now, none ofthis is gonna end up on Twitter, right?
(10:13):
We, can we agree on that?
And I had spent an hour being barragedwith Questions and confronted with my own
actions and all this stuff and trying togo back and forth and reaching clarity.
And in the moment I said, Oh yeah, sure.
Of course, of course.
And I regret that.
I think because the assumptionof that meeting and it was told
(10:37):
to me before and afterwards wasthis is a pastoral meeting, right?
And it didn't feel likea pastoral meeting.
And so I'm sitting here nowtoday questioning, Oh, if I say
this, am I going to get sued?
Am I going to lose all of my community?
My friends.
So when you ask like, whydoes this keep happening?
(10:58):
I think it's, it'sreally easy to be afraid.
Even for us, if we're just a local churchgoer, like it's just easier to shut up.
And to allow it to happen now thegreater thing is and there's a new
one this week or in the past Weekthere's this it's called morning star.
Have you heard of morning star there?
There's this kind of prophetic guynamed rick joiner and there's another
(11:19):
scandal that's brewed i'm scaredof prophetic guys But yes, yeah.
Oh, it's funny.
I grew up in the the assembliesof god Hey, wait a minute.
Did you go to this?
Did you go to the same snakecharming church as brandon?
We've been there, done that.
Yeah.
Okay.
Did you actually go to one of those?
My mom took us from a Catholic church.
So imagine this Chris.
To from a catholic church to an aogchurch for three years And it was
(11:42):
literally one of the most scarringexperiences of my entire life personally
mentally and spiritually But wellbrandon, that's interesting I grew up
catholic as well until I was like sixand then assemblies of god until I was
an adult nice Yeah, we need to do ourown podcast on that conversion crest.
We'll just do that show.
There we go.
I mean There's some interesting stories Iwould say my church was not in that sense.
(12:07):
Crazy.
There was prophetic things.
The, I guess the point that I wannabring up is why, and it's a question
maybe back to all of us, is Yeah, whyis sexual abuse, why is manipulation
so rampant amongst church leaders?
This is Mm-Hmm, . This to me issomething that's really disturbing.
Along those lines the main thingthat I got out of your podcast.
(12:30):
It could be religion.
It could be whatever.
When someone's saying, don't talkabout this, be silent on this, whether
it's in a relationship, whether it'stheology, whatever it is, if someone's
like, Hey, don't talk about this,then they're trying to cover it up.
And I don't like, you're supposedto have close, intimate friends and
community to talk about everything.
(12:51):
Like your bad thoughts,your good thoughts.
And some, once someone's telling youto be silent, that's what it's wrong.
That's what, whatever that isin life, that's what's wrong.
Well, thanks forlistening to today's show.
This is a first for us.
We have never done a two part showbefore, but we knew that this was going
to be a long show and we think it's areally important show and we're really
(13:13):
grateful that Chris would come on.
We're going to release thisfirst part one episode today.
Remember to find Chris's podcast,The Wall of Silence, you'll find it
anywhere where you find podcasts.
What the work he's doing is really,really important and we're really
grateful that you would come on today.
Take care.
We look forward to being with younext week and we hope that you're
looking forward to hearing parttwo of the Chris Marchand and
(13:34):
the Wall of Silence interview.
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