March 7, 2024 • 40 mins
In today’s rapidly evolving sports business environment, the ways in which technology is being used to attract and retain fans and to monetize “the product,” is shifting at an unprecedented pace. While broadcast media and cable television, once dominated the way fans “consumed” sports, they are now being enticed through rich content and streaming media that offers the opportunity to experience sporting events that were once out of reach, to do it at a lower cost, and to share in the experience with others. In this episode, of the Sports Business Podcast, Professor Mark Conrad, J.D., interviews Greg Butler, CEO of ZuCasa, a company that provides video streaming and social engagement solutions in the OTT gaming and medical space. As an example of the types of opportunities that are emerging, Butler describes his company’s partnership with Zee Entertainment in India for the ILT20 cricket tournaments, which allowed viewers to be able to watch cricket on their phones or on their televisions or computers at a distance, while sharing the experience. As this type of content viewing and sharing takes off, Butler notes that there are limitless possibilities in what people will be able to watch together, but also huge considerations in areas such as licensing and the need to build new business models. Tune in for this enlightening discussion!
Host: Mark Conrad Producer: Victoria Ilano Additional Production: Jeffrey Haynes Artwork: Pamela V. White Marketing: Michelle Miller Music: ”MarcusWay/Energetic Pop Punk/Tribe of Noise”
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
Hello and welcome
to the Sports Business Podcast with Prof.
C, the podcast that exploresthe world of professional,
collegiate, amateur and Olympic Sports.
I’m Mark Conrad or Prof.
C from Fordham University's Gabelli Schoolof Business, where I serve as Professor
(00:27):
of Law and Ethics and the Directorof the Sports Business Initiative,
Technology and Sports - can there be onewithout the other?
to paraphrase the old Sinatra song.
Throughout the last century,sports has utilized present
and new technologies as a way to draw fansand to monetize the product.
(00:49):
From the early days of radio,to over the air television,
then to cable, then digital,and now streaming, teams and leagues
have had a symbiotic relationshipto their media
delivery systems to findand keep their audiences.
Today, we are in the midstof a technological transformation,
as the traditional overthe air and cable methods
(01:12):
are giving way to the streaming universe.
How will this affect the viewer?
How will it affectthe economics of sports?
Will social media change and continueto be a large part of the media universe?
With me to answer theseand other questions is Greg Butler,
the CEO of ZuCasa.
(01:34):
Greg came from a music backgroundand before moving into technology,
worked in the music industry,in record and TV production
and then transitioned into computersand technology.
He has led multiple startups in the U.S.
and the European Union.
He founded ZuCasa, a companythat provides video streaming
(01:56):
and social engagement solutions in the OTTgaming and medical space.
As an interesting bit of background.
Greg's rock band opened up for DuranDuran.
Greg,welcome to the Sports Business Podcast.
And tell me,what was it like to open for Duran Duran?
Well, thanks, Mark, for having me on.
(02:18):
And one of the weirdest thingsabout the Duran situation
is that it was actually 30 years ago
last month that that tour started.
And, you know, it's always funny
because it was reallyat the very beginning of my career,
but it did give meone of my most memorable moments
(02:39):
because at when we played Wembley Arena
before the show starts,all of the staff in their uniforms
cover the entire floorand it looks like a military
gathering.
And I was up on stagedoing the soundcheck, and Simon LeBon
walked in front of me, turned and salutedand then walked away.
(03:00):
And it really just kind ofchanged my whole mood
because I realized
how absurd the whole thing was instead ofbeing really tight about, you know,
playing in front of a bunch of peopleand all that.
It was a really fun experience.
And I'm I'm grateful for having
that be part of my life.
(03:21):
And certainlyyou remember it 30 years later.
So now moving to the present,can you describe
what ZuCasa doesand what is the sports connection?
Sure.
At the heart of what we do iswe have a compression called EVE
that reduces video file size by two thirds
without needing new codecsor anything like that.
(03:44):
So it's pretty revolutionary.
It's a proprietary thing for usand it allows us to, you know, in
making the file size smaller, to reacha lot more people at a lower cost.
And then also we can do true watch partiesso we can have,
you know, ten people with audioand video in HD watching,
(04:05):
you know, an HD broadcast at about again,about one third the size of just
watching a movie on something like Netflixor Apple or something like that.
Where that applies to sports,of course, is that it's
the watching sportsis a very communal activity, as we know.
And we’re recording this rightbefore the Super Bowl.
People get together,people like to watch sports together.
(04:28):
So our ability to provide a watch party,although it applies to many areas,
the sports side of it
is has been very popular both in Esportsand more traditional sports.
In fact, our biggest accomplishmentto date as a company is that we partnered
with Zee Entertainment in Indiafor the ILT20 cricket tournaments,
(04:49):
allowing you know, viewers in Indiato be able to watch cricket
on their phones or on their televisionsor computers at a distance, but together.
And as you may know, you know, India,although it has, you know,
good bandwidth in some areas, it'snot quite as developed as other network.
So the fact that we can do this inIndia is a pretty big deal.
(05:11):
Great, and it,you know, when you talk about this idea
about watch parties and basicallystreaming issues and connectivity issues,
we know that the sports industryis going through many changes
in a landscape that opens opportunities,but it also poses challenges.
What do you think
are the major opportunities for technologycompanies in sports right now?
(05:33):
Well,I think, you know, when it comes to sports
opportunities, it'sthe fact that there are
so many sports
at so many levelsthat didn't have exposure before.
And we've seen of course,and I think maybe accelerated
over the last five years,you know, seeing different kinds of sports
(05:55):
and obviously ESPNand many of the other sports
broadcaster started doing sportsthat maybe weren't the, you know,
first tier NFL NBA or,you know, Premier League soccer.
So you see more people being able to enjoy
more diverse sports and wherethe technology portion of that comes in
(06:16):
and not to be so specificto software technology,
but the simple fact that
the technology is good enough to broadcastfrom just about anywhere
to capture these sportsat a high enough quality
that then they can be spreadwith other people.
I mean, we're having conversationsabout everything from,
you know, drone racing to high schoolfootball for the use of our technology,
(06:39):
speaking with, you know, groupsin countries all over the world.
So I think the opportunityis to be able to deliver sports
that may not have gotten a chance to fansthat already exist.
You know, if you've got,you know, 8 billion people on the planet,
you don't need 8 billion peopleto watch it.
You just need to have enough peoplethat it makes sense and that's it.
(07:04):
You know, on whatever metric that may befor the people who are capturing it.
What do you think
are some of the rising new sportsthat could take advantage over this?
That's a great question.
And you know, I guess, you know, one thingyou could look at, I haven't played it.
We all knowit's taken over the mind share.
(07:25):
But you know, pickleballI've noticed that,
you know, there are now former protennis players doing tournaments.
We've seen, you know, the big threebasketball, you know, that started
I think that you're just goingto see lots of new sports as part of it.
And then if you know,you're talking about traditional,
I think that maybe is more regional,but you'll see, you know, maybe sports
(07:48):
that are popular in one sectionof the world coming to another country.
And again now, you know, cricket,which is enormous in India
really doesn't have much of a footholdin the U.S..
The tournament that we're helping tobroadcast
is a shortened version of cricket,because I'll be honest,
I lived in England for quite a whileand, you know, watching a sport
(08:09):
that the game has played for multiple daysis probably challenging for Americans.
But the ILT20 is a version of cricketthat's only two or three hours, you know.
So I think you're just goingto see lots of modifications.
I think you're going to see new sportsdeveloping.
Come back to even when I lived in England,I used to watch Sumo Wrestling
(08:29):
and Australian Rules Footballbecause those were things
that were broadcast therethat you wouldn't see in the U.S..
And I think that it's just goingto be more of that, more of things
moving around.
And what do you thinkare the major challenges?
Well, you know, part of the problem,which, you know,
we all have seen in within the growthand expansion of
of everything from cable to streamingis that there's too much content.
(08:54):
So how do you find the contentthat you want at the quality you want?
And then for those who are streamingthat content, how do you kind of manage
this content in a way that is,you know, kind of best practices?
Obviously, there's also the licensingand payment aspect of it.
So I think thatthere are a lot of challenges within this,
(09:16):
but they’re more business challenges.
I think what we - where we areis that the technology challenge
is starting to fade away again.
I would hope to think we're part of thatsolution, you know, and it's not gone.
Things will keep changing and growing,but I think they're more business
challenges than they are technology based.
And when I say business of course
(09:37):
from your perspective,that's also legal, right?
Indeed it is.
So when you back to the pointabout content, hasn't the history
of [...] dissemination of sports,whether it's even on cable or stream, been
not enough contentthat channels are desperate for content.
So when you say there's too much content,I wonder how you come up with
that conclusion.
(09:58):
Because we have to look at itthrough a few different lenses.
There's not too much contentif you're a person sitting there
who wants to watch, you know, this gamethat might be happening in Sri Lanka
and there happens to be someone
streaming it on their,you know, Facebook Live channel.
Okay.
So there can never be enough contentbecause somebody is watching it
(10:22):
on that side.
But from a business perspective,it is an enormous challenge
because if you are the onetrying to stream that content out,
you have to reach an audience,you have to monetize that audience.
You have toyou have to navigate so many things
and you can reach a point where, look,I mean, this is,
(10:45):
you know, this will go into moreof my music and television side of this,
but the the ultimate challengethat has come up is we thought technology
or at least the the storythat was pitched about it, was that
it was going to increase the sizeof the middle class of four creatives.
Right.
More people would have access.
(11:06):
There would be more ways to
have a
distribution of fundingthat could reach lots of people.
But what actually happened wasthere was so much content that the
the publicis gravitating towards the biggest thing
and what it's kind of destroyedthe middle class.
And I could see the same thinghappening within sports.
(11:30):
It's a little different,but it's not too far off, you know.
So you have again,
let's go back to the NFL'sthe Premier League's the things like that,
you know, they're going to be giantbehemoths that are moving around.
But how do you ultimately findand keep an audience
when there's so much contentand they're so rabid for that content
(11:51):
that you can't create the consistencythat is required to build a business?
And do you note that at this time,this issue of streaming
in the last decade,it's become more ubiquitous both in the US
domestic sports side and in internationalsports, as certainly you're doing,
and streaming rights have challengedthe more traditionally dominant
(12:13):
cable TV structure, which has sufferedconsistent loss of subscribers.
Do you think this trendis going to continue?
Yes, you know, but I also think that, like
it's just a shift in model,you know, just as there have been
shifts and models going along,I think it's very easy.
And, you know, not to spend too muchgoing back to my music days,
(12:36):
but I was on the front line of that shift,
you know, of watching people transitionfrom purchasing a physical item
that we had all becomevery used to in a business model
we had all become very used to,and it really shifted truly overnight.
And you can see it nowdeveloping into a new model.
(12:57):
It doesn't look financiallylike the old model, but it is a thing.
And you could argue that prior to that.
And this also equates to sports.
There was no model at all.
It was just something you did.
You know, and it may have beena profession or it may not.
So I think we're we're seeingthis movement away
(13:18):
from the big dollars of cable TVwhen things could be kind of again
managed, restricted.
And if I look at it, you know,through the eyes of a of a lawyer,
it was a golden age of being ableto control IP and copyright
because you only had so many meansof distribution available to you.
And now as sports moves outinto as everything that has to do
(13:40):
with content moves out into a muchmore challenging space when it comes
to copyright and containment,you know, the end user wants the content.
It's not about the means of distribution.
They're just going to go to the placethat it is easiest and best to get it
and that's it.
So there's no choice.
But it took for it to move.
(14:02):
But do you find that copyrightholders are going to start pushing back
and seeking more enforcement
in a situation wheremaybe they think it's more of a wild west
of copyright distribute, of copyrightablematerial distribution?
Yes, but where the issues are
there is that trying to hold on to a model
(14:23):
that because it's how it worked beforeand how you made
your money, is to ignore
what is actually happening.
And you can only do thatfor as long as people care
about what the product is.
I can go on at any time and find any NFLgame streaming online for free.
(14:46):
The quality won't be there rightnow, but it will.
You know, people are always workingto find their way around it.
And I'm not saying they should.
I'm not saying that's how it should work.
But the other portion ofthat is as new sports
take hold, as things grow,you know, the best way to
innovate is to be aggressiveabout how the payment structure works.
(15:10):
Right?
So you're going to see that comingfrom the outside, that kind of pressure.
And then the other portion of itis if you look at, you know, I'm,
you know, based in Los Angeles, butI'm also very specifically a Clipper fan.
And you have someone like Steve Ballmer
who really wants to pushhow technology is used with sports.
(15:30):
You know, and I say that across the boardfrom the new arena
that he's building,to the way he approaches streaming.
And I think the only thing holding himback and I say this completely
as an outsider just looking at it, is,of course, the rules of engagement.
I think if he wasn't beholden to the NBA,you would see
incredible innovationcoming out from the Clippers side of this.
(15:55):
And once things are hit on that peoplelike, that's the direction it moves.
You just you cannot hold it back.
You know, you raise a really good pointand let me throw a hypothetical
out to you.
You're now the owner of a teamin a professional league.
And let us assume there is no leaguewide TV deal.
There's no cable deal.
(16:15):
In other words,you can be Steve Ballmer and say, hey,
I want to utilize technologythe way I want to for my team
could be, let's say, a soccer team,it could be a badminton team or whatever.
So what would you do?
You know, you just bought the team,
you paid for the team,you have a venue that's state of the art.
So tell me, what would you doif you had the fantasy of coming up
(16:39):
with a new series of technologicaldistribution issues and methods?
What would you do?
You know, I have to look at everything
through the lens of a fan,and I am a fan as well.
And you know what it all comes backto is, is community
and the ability to access what I wantwhen I want it.
(17:02):
Part of the technologythat we've built is based on
the idea of being a fan and wanting that.
So it would all be about connection withthe players and coaches kind of access.
You know,
I think that a lot more could be donewith access in a in a respectful way.
And really what I wantand I believe this is what almost
(17:24):
every fan would want,if not all, is just to be able to watch
a sport in the modethat I want it with my friends or family.
And that would be my focus.
You know, you have the multi-cam stuff,you have these sorts of choices, but it's,
you know, we could goas far as looking at VR, which,
you know, VR and AR will have their time.
(17:45):
You know, right now
we're still on the very edgeof the beginning of it,
even though I think, you know,
we're in a cycle where people feel likeif something's been around for ten
plus years that it's old and it's not,we're just barely touching on it.
But I think that that'swhat it'll be about.
I think it'll be,
you know, if I could cut past all of it,I want to be on the court.
I want to be on the floor.
(18:07):
I want to be ableto virtually put myself in a game.
I want to be ableto do all of those things.
So if you took off all the barriers,
you know, again,I think it can become overwhelming.
We're going to cross a lot of lines
that will be,I think, confusing for our own brains.
But it's about that access.
It's just about being in itbecause at the end of the day,
(18:28):
you watch a sport as part of your own,you know, hero's journey, right?
It's like this is my army,this is my kingdom,
this is this is that thing.
That's what you're attachingpsychologically to it.
And I think the more we pursuethat idea of turning ourselves into that,
just as we do in a video gamewhere we create a character and
(18:50):
and hit the shot, you know, that'sthat's what this is about.
It's it'sgoing to be a blending of worlds.
We have a battle going on, if you will,for the future of cable and streaming.
And that centerson the Diamond Sports case.
And for those of you do not know, DiamondSports had a series of regional sports
networks that covered a lot of baseball,
(19:13):
basketball and NHL teams, hockey teams.
And it's been in bankruptcy.
And the major leagues,at least in baseball, want to take back
the broadcast rightsthat have existed from Diamond
and try to take control overthose rights like the NFL does.
But Amazon is now willing to investin a reorganized company
(19:34):
and the latest is that the settlementseems to be that they will
keep a lot of their sports properties,at least for the time being.
But do you think that Amazon's investmentin the traditional cable firm
could lead to greaterstreaming opportunities?
I think that Amazon
at the end of the day can do whateverit wants, the same as Apple or Google.
(19:57):
And it's, you know, when it comes
to streaming opportunities,I mean, the short answer is yes,
but the long answer is every decision
that is ever made is based more on
controlling the IP and the flow of money.
So I don't know what the impact isto the end
(20:17):
user, you know, and that'sthat's what it comes back to for me.
So yeah, it'll be streaming,but I don't know
what that means anymore because everyone,
almost everyone is watching somethingstreaming at this juncture,
you know,So it's not as much about broadcast
versus streamingas it is what you're watching, right?
(20:41):
Because am I watching Netflixor do I have, you know, Comcast?
But if I have Comcast
or Spectrum or what have you,they're also delivering my my Internet.
No difference to them.
It's just stuffthey're shoving down a pipe.
So I think we're going to lose this
notion of is it linear or not?
(21:02):
Becauseespecially when it comes to sports, that
that becomes even less relevantbecause all sports is linear.
You know, it's all appointment viewing.
If you look at all the statistics on itand it's only obvious
people watch it in real time.
They're not watching, you know,sports a day later unless they have to.
(21:24):
But do you
see a day when cable will be extinct
and it'll go to à la carte
streaming serviceswhere people can choose what they want,
as opposedto being handed a series of channels
which one pays for that one doesn'tusually watch, but helps subsidize
the sports stream or the sports bundle,because the sports bundle tends
(21:46):
to be the most expensive portion of cableTV rights.
Well, I don't,I don't know if you saw that.
You know, it was announced thatI think it's it's all of the majors are,
you know, trying to group nowto just do a sports streaming.
You know. Indeed.
I'm going to ask you about that. Yeah.
So I think look, I think that'swhat the end user wants, right?
(22:10):
I think that's what the personwho's watching wants.
They want to pay an amountand just watch what they want to watch
When we talk about itin terms of broadcast and streaming,
for me, taking the economicsand the companies out of the picture
in terms ofI know that DirectTV wants streaming
(22:30):
or, you know, broadcast to continuebecause that's their business, right?
But the real question is, do
users want to turn on something,to turn on a device
and have a list of thingsthat are playing in real time
versus only having a choice of thingsthat they have to select?
(22:51):
And it is kind of you know,it goes back to a psychological thing
like I've noticed, so you know,like if you you know, Samsung TV,
it comes with their Samsungs,you know, kind of linear
broadcast is going on in itand that's what turns on when it happens.
And I found thatI'm a fan of watching Gordon
(23:12):
Ramsay tell restaurant ownersthat their food isn't good.
Right?
And so when my TV comes on, it'sone of his shows
and I might sit there and watchfor half an hour when I didn't plan on it.
And there's a thing about that,of not having to make a choice,
that is kind of refreshing
because I think everyone can go onlineand actually get paralysis.
(23:36):
It's a known thing that you will spendhalf an hour clicking through,
looking at things to watchand then never end up watching anything.
You know,
sports has a different dynamic to itbecause you get an appointment viewing.
You know, last night,it's like the Clippers are on.
I'm going to put on the Clippers, right?
And just watch the game.
(23:56):
But in most you know,at the same time too, like that's kind of
telling us that we do like just turning onand having something be on.
There's plenty of times
if, you know, the family'sdoing something else and I turn on,
I just see a game is on, I just watch itjust to go see what it's about.
And that that linear notion, regardless ofwho's the one delivering it
or how they're delivering it,I think does matter to us.
(24:18):
I think it is a thing.
So I think it will continue to existis the long version of that answer.
I don't know
who'sdelivering it or if they're delivering it
via satellite or this or that, but I thinkthere's something to just turning on
and being served content and going,I'm just going to sit here and watch.
And with younger people less interestedin traditional linear media,
(24:42):
do you think that there'llbe more of a shift
to mobile devices to watch sports?
It certainly happens now, but do you thinkthat will become even more dominant
simplybecause smartphones have been part of the,
you know, media enterprisefor about 15 years
and so younger people like my students,use them and almost live with them.
(25:04):
So do you think that that's going
to be even more dominant, say,in the next decade?
Yeah, there's no question.
And I think that there's a few thingsabout the technology
as well to tolook at as it evolves around that.
I mean, my 14 year old will sit therestudying for school
on her iPhone with her computersitting in front of her unopened.
(25:25):
I find it, you know, kind of fascinatingbecause there is
it's about like a comfort levelwhere this is what you operate on, right?
And so she is more likely,both of my kids are more likely,
to watch something on their phonesand not necessarily,
you know, do a televisionat the same time.
You know, I have a Samsung Fold, which
(25:47):
when it's folded out,is basically an iPad mini.
And, you know, we see all of these screensthat are being developed.
There's the roll upscreens, the fold up screens.
There's plenty of projection bases.
And I think that you'll seemore of a merger or an adapted
version of devices that can give you
(26:09):
more real estate to watch on.
You know, and again, I'm but obviously,you know, older.
So for me it's kind of like I would ratherhave this large screen.
But we also know, too, that these thingsmove back and forth, right?
I think we're going to seethis weird combination
of very small devices,but it wouldn't surprise me
(26:30):
as we see the price drop
continuallyon, you know, 100 inch LCDs and stuff.
I do think we're going to movetowards the future
where your wall is just a screenand you walk in
and the wall picks upfrom where your phone left off.
I think it's going to be moreof a bizarrely seamless.
(26:50):
And I say bizarrebecause you could be looking on a screen
that's very small
and we're not even touching on the idea of
what's going to happenwith headsets or glasses.
So I just thinkwe're going to have a future where
people don't really think about the devicethat much.
I think it's just going to beyou're taking in the content.
Although if you're on the legal sidenegotiating rights
(27:10):
and in negotiating yourreal estate that has a value,
that side may still be
concerned about the various waysyou chop up those rights,
whether it is going to be overthe air or it's going to be cable.
I mean, that's what's happeningwith the whole Diamond Sports issue, that,
you know, who's going to control thisin the future and how.
(27:31):
We also are going to think about
and see what the NBA's going to dowith their future broadcast rights,
because they're negotiating thatthis year, I believe.
And how much of thatwill be going to stream
and how much the Netflix of the world,the Amazons of the world, are going
to, the Apples of the worldwill take heed.
Now, on the one issue,
though, let's actually talk about,since you brought this up, MLS and Apple
(27:54):
- Major League Soccer and Apple -which has a pretty exclusive deal.
Isn't that sort of counterintuitiveto what you've been saying?
Because you really have to have Apple+to watch most of the games.
Well, it doesn't make it that fluid.
I think it's it's actually exactly
in line with the control of IP, right?
(28:14):
I mean, what we're going to see thatI think is -
I don't know if I'll call itthe great unknown, but it's more
how the challenge is going to be handledthat I still feel is a little unknown -
is that the groups that can payand in some cases overpay.
Again, if you look at cricket in Indiaand I think, you know, I know the
(28:36):
what's the the NFL,the direct NFL one that YouTube
has now - anyway that package, right,where you can get any NFL game.
You look at all these thingsand you say right now major corporations
are overpaying for sportsbecause it can be a loss leader.
They can look at it and say, well,
if you want access to this,we can lose some money on it, right?
(28:58):
And that's not what the fan wants.
The fan doesn't want it that way.
They just want access to it.
And Apple, YouTube in India,
you know, I'll call out Disney ultimately,but the it's not just them.
You know, they're willing to overpaybecause they're fighting against
(29:18):
the broadcast notion.
They want subscribers and they're usingsports to get it because they know, again,
sports is - what do you call it -you know, it is that kind of destination.
It's a thing that people have to watchas it's happening.
If you love a team, you'll do it.
I personally got Hulu specifically
(29:39):
to watch the Clippersand then they they lost the rights.
So it was immediately like, “oh”and then it's like, okay,
well then do I switch to YouTubeso that I can then, you know, it's
like you will chase your teamand that's why they do it.
But back to that, that monetary issue,
I don't know how much morethe NBA can charge.
(29:59):
I don't know how much morethe NFL can charge.
They currently can.
But there's a day coming backto your whole point about broadcast.
They're able to to do thatbecause there is competition.
They're able to do thatbecause they're building a market.
We're still in, theoretically, in
transition At some point,
(30:19):
the ad dollars, the subscription dollars,all of these dollars
are not going to add upto being able to overpay for these things.
Again, we've seen itin every portion of media and sports, too,
will have their day, which is why they'reall chasing international so badly.
The NFL has to play these games.
Well, it's true.
(30:40):
And one thing, though, thatthe traditional networks had to deal with
is building their audience for programingafter the sporting event or before.
Yeah, this iswhy Fox got the NFC in the mid nineties,
overpaying from CBS,which had it for many years.
And CBS thought like, “Hey,we don't want to lose money on it.”
(31:01):
Fox said, “We're willing to lose moneyon the Sunday afternoons
to make us a viable network.”And the other thing
was that CBS lostaffiliated stations to boot.
So many thought that even though
it was overpaying, it becomes a subjectivedefinition of what's overpaying.
That's right.
The speculation is nowthat the NBA is going
(31:22):
to get three times the television dealthey just had.
So the question is, when are we goingto get to the point of no return?
And so farwe have not at least in the major sports.
That's right.
Yeah.
I don't I think right now sports
as a as a general thing
is going to benefitgreatly from this battle.
(31:45):
And this battle is a worldwide battle.
It is no longer about,you know, the U.S., Netflix,
Prime, Apple+, all of these.
They're fighting for the entire planet.
And that's a, you know,a very broad reach.
You know, but the question becomesat some point, you know, back to,
you know, viewership,if cricket doesn't expand
(32:09):
where, you know, it's India, Englandand a little bit else, New Zealand or
what have you feel like it's a huge sport,but at some point
you have your last viewer.
And by the way, you know, you know,
let's talk about MLB and their challengesfor younger viewership.
Not that, you know, other sports don'thave it as well, but we know that MLB is
(32:30):
is maybe in a more desperate positionwhile they're,
you know, giving people, you know,half billion plus dollar contracts.
You mentioned younger viewers.
It's like how many 18 year oldsare turning on their phones
to watch the Arizona Diamondbacks?
I don't know.
I don't think it's, you know,it isn't like,
(32:51):
you know, watching the Mets in the fiftieswhen there was, you know, less going on.
But nonetheless,you had a very captive audience.
So there is a day,there is a day out there.
That's all it is.
You know,I think we'll still get to see the heyday.
We're still going to get a lot of excitingsports and a lot of things happening.
But diversification and this this battlewill eventually run its course.
(33:13):
Now, do you think there are some areas ofgrowth that are untapped in sports media?
I think if I roll backthis conversation to the AR,
VR kind of more tech side of it,
I think there's an enormous amountuntapped.
But, you know,that is also going to take time for that,
(33:34):
for both the proliferationof the technology and the, you know,
the kind of openness to thethe ways the IP is approached.
So so it boils down toat the end of the day, the rights holders.
I think if the more interested the rightsholders are in moving things around,
(33:55):
I mean, again, if you had looked at,you know, when Mark Cuban had the Mavs,
obviously a much more forward
looking owner in the space,
you know, again, back to the Ballmer,I mean, people who will look at it
in a different way, those are the oneswho will push that and find it.
I simply don't knowwhat's happening around the edges
(34:15):
in sports enough to say, this sportor that sport,
as we know, that can also change on a dimeby just having the right superstar too.
The NBA wasn't the
NBA thatwe know today until Michael Jordan.
And you know, and I can love,
you know, Bird and Magic duelingand all the greats from the past
(34:36):
but he completely changed itfrom a superstar perspective.
And, you know,is there a superstar in some sport?
You know, which again, could be MLS,could be anything.
They've certainly tried.
But it's it's going to be that,you know, could be a dynamic player.
You know,I think the WNBA hasn't had its day yet.
It's been great to survivethrough challenges
(35:00):
and it's had some superstars.
But will it have that playerthat transforms the game
that you just can't ignore?
You know, and I think, by the way,I mean, just women's sport in
general has enormous growth potential.
I was just going to ask you that question.
Given the popularityof the National Women's Soccer League,
the new rights feeagreement, the cost of new
(35:24):
teams coming in,
you know, we definitely havethat possibility of expansion
there as a challenge and interestand people are going to these games.
So I think one area to look inthe future is
indeedgoing to be on the women's sports side.
Yeah, women's golf as well could be,which used to have the deals
they were timeby deals in many, many respects
(35:47):
for the LPGAand that could be changing, too.
So there could be some real optimismexpanding women's sports and actually,
I was curious, moving on,what opportunities are there for those who
have tech backgrounds who wish to enterinto the sports industry?
Look, we can talk about gaming.
And by gaming I mean, you know,video games as opposed to betting.
(36:11):
You know, there's obviously, again, AR VR.
And, you know,one of the things that happens
in tech,of course, is rule breaking. Right?
So I'm not suggesting rule breakingas much as kind of saying
if you have an ideathat hasn't been tried or done,
I think that's a placeif you can code or do that.
(36:33):
I think that's a part of the process.
I also think that being ableto really just dive
into how people want to interactwith sports and come from
from that perspective,from a more standard side of it.
Look,I mean, actually being able to capture,
stream,move sports around, innovate around,
(36:56):
you know, on the Ballmer side,you know, it's it's the camera angles.
I mean, is it not
Let's put it this way.
It is fascinating to meto see the NFL adopting
stylistic choices from the Madden game,
starting to put bokeh around playersso that, you know, you have a focus
(37:16):
and using camera angles that arehave become popular in video games.
And I just think that, you know, as peopleentering this space
or looking for jobsand doing things like that, I,
you know, I think it'sjust about the melding of the technology
with the experienceis is where the opportunity is.
(37:37):
And what future do you see for your firmZuCasa?
Well, if I break it down, it
it all comes back to community for us.
And, you know, maybe it'sit's a it's a buzz word thing, but
we love seeing people being ableto access video
and each other in a way that is different.
(38:00):
You know, when we started the company,our kind of thesis was,
hey, we've done as a tech societya great job of replicating eyes and ears
and a horrible job of replicatingthe experience of being with other people.
So what can we do to improve that?
And, you know, we're working very closelywith a company called the debut Group
(38:22):
Neuroscience Group out of Canada,and we found a lot of common ground
with them about how we had been doing thisand their research.
And what we want to do is look,
you know, the compression as a widget,it makes it
so that we can reach more peopleat a lower cost
with more stabilityand have features that others don't have.
(38:46):
And we don't do thislike we're a platform like Facebook.
We provide this as technologyto other companies for them to do this.
So when I look at our future,I just see us growing that experience
and trying to find more waysto deliver a better experience to people.
You know, for us older types, you know,it's 3M, it's the old 3M commercial.
(39:10):
You know,we don't make the things you use,
we make the things you use better,you know, to paraphrase.
And that's what we're out there doing.
And my hope,
especially because, you know,although we're doing business in the U.S.
and, you know, North America,whatnot, it's also about, you know, where
we're working in Indiaand doing things in Africa and making it
so that people can just havethis video experience with each other.
(39:34):
That's our future. That's what we do.
Well, on that note,
we do have to come to a closeon behalf of Fordham University,
the Gabelli School of Businessand the Sports Business Initiative.
Thanks to Greg Butler for an engagingand informative and clairvoyant
discussion on the future of technology,media and sports.
(39:56):
And thanks to my producer,Victoria Ilano for her great work.
And thanks to all of you for listening in.
For the Sports Business Podcast with Prof.
C at Fordham's Gabelli School of Business,I’m Mark Conrad.
Have a great day.
Hello and welcome
to the Sports Business Podcast with Prof.
C, the podcast that exploresthe world of professional,
collegiate, amateur and Olympic Sports.
I’m Mark Conrad or Prof.
C from Fordham University's Gabelli Schoolof Business, where I serve as Professor
(00:27):
of Law and Ethics and the Directorof the Sports Business Initiative,
Technology and Sports - can there be onewithout the other?
to paraphrase the old Sinatra song.
Throughout the last century,sports has utilized present
and new technologies as a way to draw fansand to monetize the product.
(00:49):
From the early days of radio,to over the air television,
then to cable, then digital,and now streaming, teams and leagues
have had a symbiotic relationshipto their media
delivery systems to findand keep their audiences.
Today, we are in the midstof a technological transformation,
as the traditional overthe air and cable methods
(01:12):
are giving way to the streaming universe.
How will this affect the viewer?
How will it affectthe economics of sports?
Will social media change and continueto be a large part of the media universe?
With me to answer theseand other questions is Greg Butler,
the CEO of ZuCasa.
(01:34):
Greg came from a music backgroundand before moving into technology,
worked in the music industry,in record and TV production
and then transitioned into computersand technology.
He has led multiple startups in the U.S.
and the European Union.
He founded ZuCasa, a companythat provides video streaming
(01:56):
and social engagement solutions in the OTTgaming and medical space.
As an interesting bit of background.
Greg's rock band opened up for DuranDuran.
Greg,welcome to the Sports Business Podcast.
And tell me,what was it like to open for Duran Duran?
Well, thanks, Mark, for having me on.
(02:18):
And one of the weirdest thingsabout the Duran situation
is that it was actually 30 years ago
last month that that tour started.
And, you know, it's always funny
because it was reallyat the very beginning of my career,
but it did give meone of my most memorable moments
(02:39):
because at when we played Wembley Arena
before the show starts,all of the staff in their uniforms
cover the entire floorand it looks like a military
gathering.
And I was up on stagedoing the soundcheck, and Simon LeBon
walked in front of me, turned and salutedand then walked away.
(03:00):
And it really just kind ofchanged my whole mood
because I realized
how absurd the whole thing was instead ofbeing really tight about, you know,
playing in front of a bunch of peopleand all that.
It was a really fun experience.
And I'm I'm grateful for having
that be part of my life.
(03:21):
And certainlyyou remember it 30 years later.
So now moving to the present,can you describe
what ZuCasa doesand what is the sports connection?
Sure.
At the heart of what we do iswe have a compression called EVE
that reduces video file size by two thirds
without needing new codecsor anything like that.
(03:44):
So it's pretty revolutionary.
It's a proprietary thing for usand it allows us to, you know, in
making the file size smaller, to reacha lot more people at a lower cost.
And then also we can do true watch partiesso we can have,
you know, ten people with audioand video in HD watching,
(04:05):
you know, an HD broadcast at about again,about one third the size of just
watching a movie on something like Netflixor Apple or something like that.
Where that applies to sports,of course, is that it's
the watching sportsis a very communal activity, as we know.
And we’re recording this rightbefore the Super Bowl.
People get together,people like to watch sports together.
(04:28):
So our ability to provide a watch party,although it applies to many areas,
the sports side of it
is has been very popular both in Esportsand more traditional sports.
In fact, our biggest accomplishmentto date as a company is that we partnered
with Zee Entertainment in Indiafor the ILT20 cricket tournaments,
(04:49):
allowing you know, viewers in Indiato be able to watch cricket
on their phones or on their televisionsor computers at a distance, but together.
And as you may know, you know, India,although it has, you know,
good bandwidth in some areas, it'snot quite as developed as other network.
So the fact that we can do this inIndia is a pretty big deal.
(05:11):
Great, and it,you know, when you talk about this idea
about watch parties and basicallystreaming issues and connectivity issues,
we know that the sports industryis going through many changes
in a landscape that opens opportunities,but it also poses challenges.
What do you think
are the major opportunities for technologycompanies in sports right now?
(05:33):
Well,I think, you know, when it comes to sports
opportunities, it'sthe fact that there are
so many sports
at so many levelsthat didn't have exposure before.
And we've seen of course,and I think maybe accelerated
over the last five years,you know, seeing different kinds of sports
(05:55):
and obviously ESPNand many of the other sports
broadcaster started doing sportsthat maybe weren't the, you know,
first tier NFL NBA or,you know, Premier League soccer.
So you see more people being able to enjoy
more diverse sports and wherethe technology portion of that comes in
(06:16):
and not to be so specificto software technology,
but the simple fact that
the technology is good enough to broadcastfrom just about anywhere
to capture these sportsat a high enough quality
that then they can be spreadwith other people.
I mean, we're having conversationsabout everything from,
you know, drone racing to high schoolfootball for the use of our technology,
(06:39):
speaking with, you know, groupsin countries all over the world.
So I think the opportunityis to be able to deliver sports
that may not have gotten a chance to fansthat already exist.
You know, if you've got,you know, 8 billion people on the planet,
you don't need 8 billion peopleto watch it.
You just need to have enough peoplethat it makes sense and that's it.
(07:04):
You know, on whatever metric that may befor the people who are capturing it.
What do you think
are some of the rising new sportsthat could take advantage over this?
That's a great question.
And you know, I guess, you know, one thingyou could look at, I haven't played it.
We all knowit's taken over the mind share.
(07:25):
But you know, pickleballI've noticed that,
you know, there are now former protennis players doing tournaments.
We've seen, you know, the big threebasketball, you know, that started
I think that you're just goingto see lots of new sports as part of it.
And then if you know,you're talking about traditional,
I think that maybe is more regional,but you'll see, you know, maybe sports
(07:48):
that are popular in one sectionof the world coming to another country.
And again now, you know, cricket,which is enormous in India
really doesn't have much of a footholdin the U.S..
The tournament that we're helping tobroadcast
is a shortened version of cricket,because I'll be honest,
I lived in England for quite a whileand, you know, watching a sport
(08:09):
that the game has played for multiple daysis probably challenging for Americans.
But the ILT20 is a version of cricketthat's only two or three hours, you know.
So I think you're just goingto see lots of modifications.
I think you're going to see new sportsdeveloping.
Come back to even when I lived in England,I used to watch Sumo Wrestling
(08:29):
and Australian Rules Footballbecause those were things
that were broadcast therethat you wouldn't see in the U.S..
And I think that it's just goingto be more of that, more of things
moving around.
And what do you thinkare the major challenges?
Well, you know, part of the problem,which, you know,
we all have seen in within the growthand expansion of
of everything from cable to streamingis that there's too much content.
(08:54):
So how do you find the contentthat you want at the quality you want?
And then for those who are streamingthat content, how do you kind of manage
this content in a way that is,you know, kind of best practices?
Obviously, there's also the licensingand payment aspect of it.
So I think thatthere are a lot of challenges within this,
(09:16):
but they’re more business challenges.
I think what we - where we areis that the technology challenge
is starting to fade away again.
I would hope to think we're part of thatsolution, you know, and it's not gone.
Things will keep changing and growing,but I think they're more business
challenges than they are technology based.
And when I say business of course
(09:37):
from your perspective,that's also legal, right?
Indeed it is.
So when you back to the pointabout content, hasn't the history
of [...] dissemination of sports,whether it's even on cable or stream, been
not enough contentthat channels are desperate for content.
So when you say there's too much content,I wonder how you come up with
that conclusion.
(09:58):
Because we have to look at itthrough a few different lenses.
There's not too much contentif you're a person sitting there
who wants to watch, you know, this gamethat might be happening in Sri Lanka
and there happens to be someone
streaming it on their,you know, Facebook Live channel.
Okay.
So there can never be enough contentbecause somebody is watching it
(10:22):
on that side.
But from a business perspective,it is an enormous challenge
because if you are the onetrying to stream that content out,
you have to reach an audience,you have to monetize that audience.
You have toyou have to navigate so many things
and you can reach a point where, look,I mean, this is,
(10:45):
you know, this will go into moreof my music and television side of this,
but the the ultimate challengethat has come up is we thought technology
or at least the the storythat was pitched about it, was that
it was going to increase the sizeof the middle class of four creatives.
Right.
More people would have access.
(11:06):
There would be more ways to
have a
distribution of fundingthat could reach lots of people.
But what actually happened wasthere was so much content that the
the publicis gravitating towards the biggest thing
and what it's kind of destroyedthe middle class.
And I could see the same thinghappening within sports.
(11:30):
It's a little different,but it's not too far off, you know.
So you have again,
let's go back to the NFL'sthe Premier League's the things like that,
you know, they're going to be giantbehemoths that are moving around.
But how do you ultimately findand keep an audience
when there's so much contentand they're so rabid for that content
(11:51):
that you can't create the consistencythat is required to build a business?
And do you note that at this time,this issue of streaming
in the last decade,it's become more ubiquitous both in the US
domestic sports side and in internationalsports, as certainly you're doing,
and streaming rights have challengedthe more traditionally dominant
(12:13):
cable TV structure, which has sufferedconsistent loss of subscribers.
Do you think this trendis going to continue?
Yes, you know, but I also think that, like
it's just a shift in model,you know, just as there have been
shifts and models going along,I think it's very easy.
And, you know, not to spend too muchgoing back to my music days,
(12:36):
but I was on the front line of that shift,
you know, of watching people transitionfrom purchasing a physical item
that we had all becomevery used to in a business model
we had all become very used to,and it really shifted truly overnight.
And you can see it nowdeveloping into a new model.
(12:57):
It doesn't look financiallylike the old model, but it is a thing.
And you could argue that prior to that.
And this also equates to sports.
There was no model at all.
It was just something you did.
You know, and it may have beena profession or it may not.
So I think we're we're seeingthis movement away
(13:18):
from the big dollars of cable TVwhen things could be kind of again
managed, restricted.
And if I look at it, you know,through the eyes of a of a lawyer,
it was a golden age of being ableto control IP and copyright
because you only had so many meansof distribution available to you.
And now as sports moves outinto as everything that has to do
(13:40):
with content moves out into a muchmore challenging space when it comes
to copyright and containment,you know, the end user wants the content.
It's not about the means of distribution.
They're just going to go to the placethat it is easiest and best to get it
and that's it.
So there's no choice.
But it took for it to move.
(14:02):
But do you find that copyrightholders are going to start pushing back
and seeking more enforcement
in a situation wheremaybe they think it's more of a wild west
of copyright distribute, of copyrightablematerial distribution?
Yes, but where the issues are
there is that trying to hold on to a model
(14:23):
that because it's how it worked beforeand how you made
your money, is to ignore
what is actually happening.
And you can only do thatfor as long as people care
about what the product is.
I can go on at any time and find any NFLgame streaming online for free.
(14:46):
The quality won't be there rightnow, but it will.
You know, people are always workingto find their way around it.
And I'm not saying they should.
I'm not saying that's how it should work.
But the other portion ofthat is as new sports
take hold, as things grow,you know, the best way to
innovate is to be aggressiveabout how the payment structure works.
(15:10):
Right?
So you're going to see that comingfrom the outside, that kind of pressure.
And then the other portion of itis if you look at, you know, I'm,
you know, based in Los Angeles, butI'm also very specifically a Clipper fan.
And you have someone like Steve Ballmer
who really wants to pushhow technology is used with sports.
(15:30):
You know, and I say that across the boardfrom the new arena
that he's building,to the way he approaches streaming.
And I think the only thing holding himback and I say this completely
as an outsider just looking at it, is,of course, the rules of engagement.
I think if he wasn't beholden to the NBA,you would see
incredible innovationcoming out from the Clippers side of this.
(15:55):
And once things are hit on that peoplelike, that's the direction it moves.
You just you cannot hold it back.
You know, you raise a really good pointand let me throw a hypothetical
out to you.
You're now the owner of a teamin a professional league.
And let us assume there is no leaguewide TV deal.
There's no cable deal.
(16:15):
In other words,you can be Steve Ballmer and say, hey,
I want to utilize technologythe way I want to for my team
could be, let's say, a soccer team,it could be a badminton team or whatever.
So what would you do?
You know, you just bought the team,
you paid for the team,you have a venue that's state of the art.
So tell me, what would you doif you had the fantasy of coming up
(16:39):
with a new series of technologicaldistribution issues and methods?
What would you do?
You know, I have to look at everything
through the lens of a fan,and I am a fan as well.
And you know what it all comes backto is, is community
and the ability to access what I wantwhen I want it.
(17:02):
Part of the technologythat we've built is based on
the idea of being a fan and wanting that.
So it would all be about connection withthe players and coaches kind of access.
You know,
I think that a lot more could be donewith access in a in a respectful way.
And really what I wantand I believe this is what almost
(17:24):
every fan would want,if not all, is just to be able to watch
a sport in the modethat I want it with my friends or family.
And that would be my focus.
You know, you have the multi-cam stuff,you have these sorts of choices, but it's,
you know, we could goas far as looking at VR, which,
you know, VR and AR will have their time.
(17:45):
You know, right now
we're still on the very edgeof the beginning of it,
even though I think, you know,
we're in a cycle where people feel likeif something's been around for ten
plus years that it's old and it's not,we're just barely touching on it.
But I think that that'swhat it'll be about.
I think it'll be,
you know, if I could cut past all of it,I want to be on the court.
I want to be on the floor.
(18:07):
I want to be ableto virtually put myself in a game.
I want to be ableto do all of those things.
So if you took off all the barriers,
you know, again,I think it can become overwhelming.
We're going to cross a lot of lines
that will be,I think, confusing for our own brains.
But it's about that access.
It's just about being in itbecause at the end of the day,
(18:28):
you watch a sport as part of your own,you know, hero's journey, right?
It's like this is my army,this is my kingdom,
this is this is that thing.
That's what you're attachingpsychologically to it.
And I think the more we pursuethat idea of turning ourselves into that,
just as we do in a video gamewhere we create a character and
(18:50):
and hit the shot, you know, that'sthat's what this is about.
It's it'sgoing to be a blending of worlds.
We have a battle going on, if you will,for the future of cable and streaming.
And that centerson the Diamond Sports case.
And for those of you do not know, DiamondSports had a series of regional sports
networks that covered a lot of baseball,
(19:13):
basketball and NHL teams, hockey teams.
And it's been in bankruptcy.
And the major leagues,at least in baseball, want to take back
the broadcast rightsthat have existed from Diamond
and try to take control overthose rights like the NFL does.
But Amazon is now willing to investin a reorganized company
(19:34):
and the latest is that the settlementseems to be that they will
keep a lot of their sports properties,at least for the time being.
But do you think that Amazon's investmentin the traditional cable firm
could lead to greaterstreaming opportunities?
I think that Amazon
at the end of the day can do whateverit wants, the same as Apple or Google.
(19:57):
And it's, you know, when it comes
to streaming opportunities,I mean, the short answer is yes,
but the long answer is every decision
that is ever made is based more on
controlling the IP and the flow of money.
So I don't know what the impact isto the end
(20:17):
user, you know, and that'sthat's what it comes back to for me.
So yeah, it'll be streaming,but I don't know
what that means anymore because everyone,
almost everyone is watching somethingstreaming at this juncture,
you know,So it's not as much about broadcast
versus streamingas it is what you're watching, right?
(20:41):
Because am I watching Netflixor do I have, you know, Comcast?
But if I have Comcast
or Spectrum or what have you,they're also delivering my my Internet.
No difference to them.
It's just stuffthey're shoving down a pipe.
So I think we're going to lose this
notion of is it linear or not?
(21:02):
Becauseespecially when it comes to sports, that
that becomes even less relevantbecause all sports is linear.
You know, it's all appointment viewing.
If you look at all the statistics on itand it's only obvious
people watch it in real time.
They're not watching, you know,sports a day later unless they have to.
(21:24):
But do you
see a day when cable will be extinct
and it'll go to à la carte
streaming serviceswhere people can choose what they want,
as opposedto being handed a series of channels
which one pays for that one doesn'tusually watch, but helps subsidize
the sports stream or the sports bundle,because the sports bundle tends
(21:46):
to be the most expensive portion of cableTV rights.
Well, I don't,I don't know if you saw that.
You know, it was announced thatI think it's it's all of the majors are,
you know, trying to group nowto just do a sports streaming.
You know. Indeed.
I'm going to ask you about that. Yeah.
So I think look, I think that'swhat the end user wants, right?
(22:10):
I think that's what the personwho's watching wants.
They want to pay an amountand just watch what they want to watch
When we talk about itin terms of broadcast and streaming,
for me, taking the economicsand the companies out of the picture
in terms ofI know that DirectTV wants streaming
(22:30):
or, you know, broadcast to continuebecause that's their business, right?
But the real question is, do
users want to turn on something,to turn on a device
and have a list of thingsthat are playing in real time
versus only having a choice of thingsthat they have to select?
(22:51):
And it is kind of you know,it goes back to a psychological thing
like I've noticed, so you know,like if you you know, Samsung TV,
it comes with their Samsungs,you know, kind of linear
broadcast is going on in itand that's what turns on when it happens.
And I found thatI'm a fan of watching Gordon
(23:12):
Ramsay tell restaurant ownersthat their food isn't good.
Right?
And so when my TV comes on, it'sone of his shows
and I might sit there and watchfor half an hour when I didn't plan on it.
And there's a thing about that,of not having to make a choice,
that is kind of refreshing
because I think everyone can go onlineand actually get paralysis.
(23:36):
It's a known thing that you will spendhalf an hour clicking through,
looking at things to watchand then never end up watching anything.
You know,
sports has a different dynamic to itbecause you get an appointment viewing.
You know, last night,it's like the Clippers are on.
I'm going to put on the Clippers, right?
And just watch the game.
(23:56):
But in most you know,at the same time too, like that's kind of
telling us that we do like just turning onand having something be on.
There's plenty of times
if, you know, the family'sdoing something else and I turn on,
I just see a game is on, I just watch itjust to go see what it's about.
And that that linear notion, regardless ofwho's the one delivering it
or how they're delivering it,I think does matter to us.
(24:18):
I think it is a thing.
So I think it will continue to existis the long version of that answer.
I don't know
who'sdelivering it or if they're delivering it
via satellite or this or that, but I thinkthere's something to just turning on
and being served content and going,I'm just going to sit here and watch.
And with younger people less interestedin traditional linear media,
(24:42):
do you think that there'llbe more of a shift
to mobile devices to watch sports?
It certainly happens now, but do you thinkthat will become even more dominant
simplybecause smartphones have been part of the,
you know, media enterprisefor about 15 years
and so younger people like my students,use them and almost live with them.
(25:04):
So do you think that that's going
to be even more dominant, say,in the next decade?
Yeah, there's no question.
And I think that there's a few thingsabout the technology
as well to tolook at as it evolves around that.
I mean, my 14 year old will sit therestudying for school
on her iPhone with her computersitting in front of her unopened.
(25:25):
I find it, you know, kind of fascinatingbecause there is
it's about like a comfort levelwhere this is what you operate on, right?
And so she is more likely,both of my kids are more likely,
to watch something on their phonesand not necessarily,
you know, do a televisionat the same time.
You know, I have a Samsung Fold, which
(25:47):
when it's folded out,is basically an iPad mini.
And, you know, we see all of these screensthat are being developed.
There's the roll upscreens, the fold up screens.
There's plenty of projection bases.
And I think that you'll seemore of a merger or an adapted
version of devices that can give you
(26:09):
more real estate to watch on.
You know, and again, I'm but obviously,you know, older.
So for me it's kind of like I would ratherhave this large screen.
But we also know, too, that these thingsmove back and forth, right?
I think we're going to seethis weird combination
of very small devices,but it wouldn't surprise me
(26:30):
as we see the price drop
continuallyon, you know, 100 inch LCDs and stuff.
I do think we're going to movetowards the future
where your wall is just a screenand you walk in
and the wall picks upfrom where your phone left off.
I think it's going to be moreof a bizarrely seamless.
(26:50):
And I say bizarrebecause you could be looking on a screen
that's very small
and we're not even touching on the idea of
what's going to happenwith headsets or glasses.
So I just thinkwe're going to have a future where
people don't really think about the devicethat much.
I think it's just going to beyou're taking in the content.
Although if you're on the legal sidenegotiating rights
(27:10):
and in negotiating yourreal estate that has a value,
that side may still be
concerned about the various waysyou chop up those rights,
whether it is going to be overthe air or it's going to be cable.
I mean, that's what's happeningwith the whole Diamond Sports issue, that,
you know, who's going to control thisin the future and how.
(27:31):
We also are going to think about
and see what the NBA's going to dowith their future broadcast rights,
because they're negotiating thatthis year, I believe.
And how much of thatwill be going to stream
and how much the Netflix of the world,the Amazons of the world, are going
to, the Apples of the worldwill take heed.
Now, on the one issue,
though, let's actually talk about,since you brought this up, MLS and Apple
(27:54):
- Major League Soccer and Apple -which has a pretty exclusive deal.
Isn't that sort of counterintuitiveto what you've been saying?
Because you really have to have Apple+to watch most of the games.
Well, it doesn't make it that fluid.
I think it's it's actually exactly
in line with the control of IP, right?
(28:14):
I mean, what we're going to see thatI think is -
I don't know if I'll call itthe great unknown, but it's more
how the challenge is going to be handledthat I still feel is a little unknown -
is that the groups that can payand in some cases overpay.
Again, if you look at cricket in Indiaand I think, you know, I know the
(28:36):
what's the the NFL,the direct NFL one that YouTube
has now - anyway that package, right,where you can get any NFL game.
You look at all these thingsand you say right now major corporations
are overpaying for sportsbecause it can be a loss leader.
They can look at it and say, well,
if you want access to this,we can lose some money on it, right?
(28:58):
And that's not what the fan wants.
The fan doesn't want it that way.
They just want access to it.
And Apple, YouTube in India,
you know, I'll call out Disney ultimately,but the it's not just them.
You know, they're willing to overpaybecause they're fighting against
(29:18):
the broadcast notion.
They want subscribers and they're usingsports to get it because they know, again,
sports is - what do you call it -you know, it is that kind of destination.
It's a thing that people have to watchas it's happening.
If you love a team, you'll do it.
I personally got Hulu specifically
(29:39):
to watch the Clippersand then they they lost the rights.
So it was immediately like, “oh”and then it's like, okay,
well then do I switch to YouTubeso that I can then, you know, it's
like you will chase your teamand that's why they do it.
But back to that, that monetary issue,
I don't know how much morethe NBA can charge.
(29:59):
I don't know how much morethe NFL can charge.
They currently can.
But there's a day coming backto your whole point about broadcast.
They're able to to do thatbecause there is competition.
They're able to do thatbecause they're building a market.
We're still in, theoretically, in
transition At some point,
(30:19):
the ad dollars, the subscription dollars,all of these dollars
are not going to add upto being able to overpay for these things.
Again, we've seen itin every portion of media and sports, too,
will have their day, which is why they'reall chasing international so badly.
The NFL has to play these games.
Well, it's true.
(30:40):
And one thing, though, thatthe traditional networks had to deal with
is building their audience for programingafter the sporting event or before.
Yeah, this iswhy Fox got the NFC in the mid nineties,
overpaying from CBS,which had it for many years.
And CBS thought like, “Hey,we don't want to lose money on it.”
(31:01):
Fox said, “We're willing to lose moneyon the Sunday afternoons
to make us a viable network.”And the other thing
was that CBS lostaffiliated stations to boot.
So many thought that even though
it was overpaying, it becomes a subjectivedefinition of what's overpaying.
That's right.
The speculation is nowthat the NBA is going
(31:22):
to get three times the television dealthey just had.
So the question is, when are we goingto get to the point of no return?
And so farwe have not at least in the major sports.
That's right.
Yeah.
I don't I think right now sports
as a as a general thing
is going to benefitgreatly from this battle.
(31:45):
And this battle is a worldwide battle.
It is no longer about,you know, the U.S., Netflix,
Prime, Apple+, all of these.
They're fighting for the entire planet.
And that's a, you know,a very broad reach.
You know, but the question becomesat some point, you know, back to,
you know, viewership,if cricket doesn't expand
(32:09):
where, you know, it's India, Englandand a little bit else, New Zealand or
what have you feel like it's a huge sport,but at some point
you have your last viewer.
And by the way, you know, you know,
let's talk about MLB and their challengesfor younger viewership.
Not that, you know, other sports don'thave it as well, but we know that MLB is
(32:30):
is maybe in a more desperate positionwhile they're,
you know, giving people, you know,half billion plus dollar contracts.
You mentioned younger viewers.
It's like how many 18 year oldsare turning on their phones
to watch the Arizona Diamondbacks?
I don't know.
I don't think it's, you know,it isn't like,
(32:51):
you know, watching the Mets in the fiftieswhen there was, you know, less going on.
But nonetheless,you had a very captive audience.
So there is a day,there is a day out there.
That's all it is.
You know,I think we'll still get to see the heyday.
We're still going to get a lot of excitingsports and a lot of things happening.
But diversification and this this battlewill eventually run its course.
(33:13):
Now, do you think there are some areas ofgrowth that are untapped in sports media?
I think if I roll backthis conversation to the AR,
VR kind of more tech side of it,
I think there's an enormous amountuntapped.
But, you know,that is also going to take time for that,
(33:34):
for both the proliferationof the technology and the, you know,
the kind of openness to thethe ways the IP is approached.
So so it boils down toat the end of the day, the rights holders.
I think if the more interested the rightsholders are in moving things around,
(33:55):
I mean, again, if you had looked at,you know, when Mark Cuban had the Mavs,
obviously a much more forward
looking owner in the space,
you know, again, back to the Ballmer,I mean, people who will look at it
in a different way, those are the oneswho will push that and find it.
I simply don't knowwhat's happening around the edges
(34:15):
in sports enough to say, this sportor that sport,
as we know, that can also change on a dimeby just having the right superstar too.
The NBA wasn't the
NBA thatwe know today until Michael Jordan.
And you know, and I can love,
you know, Bird and Magic duelingand all the greats from the past
(34:36):
but he completely changed itfrom a superstar perspective.
And, you know,is there a superstar in some sport?
You know, which again, could be MLS,could be anything.
They've certainly tried.
But it's it's going to be that,you know, could be a dynamic player.
You know,I think the WNBA hasn't had its day yet.
It's been great to survivethrough challenges
(35:00):
and it's had some superstars.
But will it have that playerthat transforms the game
that you just can't ignore?
You know, and I think, by the way,I mean, just women's sport in
general has enormous growth potential.
I was just going to ask you that question.
Given the popularityof the National Women's Soccer League,
the new rights feeagreement, the cost of new
(35:24):
teams coming in,
you know, we definitely havethat possibility of expansion
there as a challenge and interestand people are going to these games.
So I think one area to look inthe future is
indeedgoing to be on the women's sports side.
Yeah, women's golf as well could be,which used to have the deals
they were timeby deals in many, many respects
(35:47):
for the LPGAand that could be changing, too.
So there could be some real optimismexpanding women's sports and actually,
I was curious, moving on,what opportunities are there for those who
have tech backgrounds who wish to enterinto the sports industry?
Look, we can talk about gaming.
And by gaming I mean, you know,video games as opposed to betting.
(36:11):
You know, there's obviously, again, AR VR.
And, you know,one of the things that happens
in tech,of course, is rule breaking. Right?
So I'm not suggesting rule breakingas much as kind of saying
if you have an ideathat hasn't been tried or done,
I think that's a placeif you can code or do that.
(36:33):
I think that's a part of the process.
I also think that being ableto really just dive
into how people want to interactwith sports and come from
from that perspective,from a more standard side of it.
Look,I mean, actually being able to capture,
stream,move sports around, innovate around,
(36:56):
you know, on the Ballmer side,you know, it's it's the camera angles.
I mean, is it not
Let's put it this way.
It is fascinating to meto see the NFL adopting
stylistic choices from the Madden game,
starting to put bokeh around playersso that, you know, you have a focus
(37:16):
and using camera angles that arehave become popular in video games.
And I just think that, you know, as peopleentering this space
or looking for jobsand doing things like that, I,
you know, I think it'sjust about the melding of the technology
with the experienceis is where the opportunity is.
(37:37):
And what future do you see for your firmZuCasa?
Well, if I break it down, it
it all comes back to community for us.
And, you know, maybe it'sit's a it's a buzz word thing, but
we love seeing people being ableto access video
and each other in a way that is different.
(38:00):
You know, when we started the company,our kind of thesis was,
hey, we've done as a tech societya great job of replicating eyes and ears
and a horrible job of replicatingthe experience of being with other people.
So what can we do to improve that?
And, you know, we're working very closelywith a company called the debut Group
(38:22):
Neuroscience Group out of Canada,and we found a lot of common ground
with them about how we had been doing thisand their research.
And what we want to do is look,
you know, the compression as a widget,it makes it
so that we can reach more peopleat a lower cost
with more stabilityand have features that others don't have.
(38:46):
And we don't do thislike we're a platform like Facebook.
We provide this as technologyto other companies for them to do this.
So when I look at our future,I just see us growing that experience
and trying to find more waysto deliver a better experience to people.
You know, for us older types, you know,it's 3M, it's the old 3M commercial.
(39:10):
You know,we don't make the things you use,
we make the things you use better,you know, to paraphrase.
And that's what we're out there doing.
And my hope,
especially because, you know,although we're doing business in the U.S.
and, you know, North America,whatnot, it's also about, you know, where
we're working in Indiaand doing things in Africa and making it
so that people can just havethis video experience with each other.
(39:34):
That's our future. That's what we do.
Well, on that note,
we do have to come to a closeon behalf of Fordham University,
the Gabelli School of Businessand the Sports Business Initiative.
Thanks to Greg Butler for an engagingand informative and clairvoyant
discussion on the future of technology,media and sports.
(39:56):
And thanks to my producer,Victoria Ilano for her great work.
And thanks to all of you for listening in.
For the Sports Business Podcast with Prof.
C at Fordham's Gabelli School of Business,I’m Mark Conrad.
Have a great day.
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