For this episode of the Sports Business Podcast with Prof. C, we dive into what is known as “immersive technology” and how this kind of delivery system can rethink how sports teams and brands can engage with fans. Prof. C. interviewed James Giglio, the founder and CEO of MVP Interactive, a firm that engages in using immersive technology in the sports area. It is a fascinating guide into the latest sphere of sports and technology. Enjoy!
Host: Mark Conrad Producer: Victoria Ilano Additional Production: Jeffrey Haynes Artwork: Pamela V. White Marketing: Michelle Miller Music: ”MarcusWay/Energetic Pop Punk/Tribe of Noise”
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:06):
Hello and welcome to the Sports BusinessPodcast with Prof.
C, the podcast that explores the world ofprofessional, collegiate, amateur, and
Olympic sports.
I'm Mark Conrad, or Prof.
C, from Fordham University's GabelliSchool of Business, where I serve as
(00:28):
Professor of Law and Ethics and theDirector of the Sports Business
Initiative.
On our podcast, we have discussed issuesof technology and sports, and for this
episode, we will dive into what is knownas immersive technology and how this kind
of delivery system can rethink how sportsteams and brands can engage with fans.
(00:54):
With me to discuss the potential ofimmersive technology and how it is
currently used is James Giglio.
the founder and CEO of MVP Interactive, afirm that engages in using immersive
technology in the sports area.
James, welcome to the Sports BusinessPodcast.
(01:17):
Well, thank you for having me, Prop C.
I can be James G just to kind of keep themoniker going here.
that's very good.
Okay.
It rhymes too.
So for those of us who don't know or maynot know,
What do we mean by immersive technology?
Yeah, it's a good question.
(01:37):
And, you know, obviously I don't thinkit's a part of the everyday nomenclature
of our everyday lives.
And so I think the easiest and simplestway to describe it is really the blend of
a digital and physical environment.
And so that could be a wide range ofdigital technologies, most notably known
(01:58):
as augmented reality or virtual reality.
But it's really not secluded to just thosetwo technologies where there is a host of
gesture based experiences that.
Technologies can integrate a individualinto an experience that again blends a
(02:18):
physical environment with a digital screenor digital environment that allows a user
to immerse themselves into an environmentby using.
3d sensors or peripheral technologydevices to really allow yourself to escape
into a setting both digitally andphysically at the same time and so you
(02:40):
know for many years when we would try todescribe our tech our company mvp
interactive it was very hard because youcan imagine ten years ago when you were
talking about a rvr that wasn'tnecessarily a trending topic so.
You know it was a bit of a tongue twistertrying to sell our technology to sports
teams or marketers trying to explain whatimmersive technology or creative
(03:05):
technology was and so you know I think theuse or right around 2020 2021 the term XR
or mixed reality had sort of come to foldthrough the metaverse or augmented reality
technologies or you know when NFT started.
(03:25):
of come to light.
And I think when Apple was started teasingtheir Vision Pro products that were sort
of teasing out into the market that thisdefinition of mixed reality kind of came
to light where immersive technologies werestarting to find its way into the
(03:45):
marketing world and definition and wherepeople now have a better understanding
that mixed reality.
is really a combination of all thesetechnologies that fold under the umbrella
of immersive technology.
And when did you start MVP interactive?
Yeah, it was the spring of 2012, May 1stto be exact.
(04:09):
And why at that time and why this companyand where did you come from to get to the
point of starting MVP interactive?
Yeah, well, it was,
Kind of a crazy story.
I had been working in advertising inparticular, the out of home advertising
realm.
And, you know, this was back in 2008 withthe advent of the iPhone.
(04:33):
And as you remember, when the iPhone sortof came to market, it really
revolutionized how we communicated notonly on our mobile devices, but how we
interacted with technology and brands.
And with the use of mobile apps, we sawthe trend on not only entertainment,
applications and how we would kill timeand how we would just use these fun, quick
(04:55):
hit gamified experiences on our phone toentertain ourselves, but how we could use
our mobile devices to interact with oureveryday lives, whether it was mobile
banking or communication.
And so I started to see a trend wherebrands were really leaning into technology
and being in and around New York, youstarted to see stunting marketing
(05:17):
campaigns, right?
Where.
they would be called, you know, stationdomination activations, right?
Where you'd go through Penn Station or aGrand Central Station and there would be a
brand that would, you know, build a propset of some sort.
And, you know, they would create this sortof entertaining footprint where, you know,
commuters would go by and they werehanding out these sort of tchotchkes.
(05:39):
And, you know, it was a great way to kindof generate some PR and some buzz around
the brand for a particular promotion.
And,
You know it just felt a little more analogin terms of how marketing was leaning
towards a face to face communication withindividuals.
But I knew technology just as a generalinterest of mine where I was by no means a
(06:03):
software developer or a techietraditionally.
But I was always very interested in therealm of technology but more importantly I
just saw.
a trend in where technology was evolvingand how it was going to change our life
because of the iPhone.
Granted, I was always a sports fan andgrowing up playing sports and attending
(06:24):
sports games, I had a distinct memory ofattending games and walking the concourse
and being solicited by brands for exchangeof information and in a very similar
fashion.
credit card companies or banking companieslooking for applications to fill out for,
(06:46):
you know, for fans so they can get a towelor a foam finger or some type of light
tchotchke again.
And, you know, having this yard bark kindof experience walking through games.
And I felt, you know, through the last fewyears from 2008 to 2010, 2011, 2012, that,
you know, what a perfect way.
by attending a sports environment orsports game that you can tap into the
(07:11):
passion of attending a live event like asports game that you can leverage
technology as a two way form ofcommunication between a brand and a fan by
allowing a fan to interact with the brandin a very seamless way by giving this fan
a really unique experience throughtechnology where it doesn't seem so.
(07:31):
So it was this frictionless communication,we like to say, where you could
essentially go up to some type ofinteractive technology and participate in
something for a very seamless exchange ofinformation with generally a brand that
you may not be interested in, right?
But it just felt natural because you wereimmersed in this environment, you were
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attending a game.
And as you know, when you attend a game,you're investing in...
full day of your time, as well as a prettysignificant financial investment.
So you really want to maximize your timeand your dollar.
And so you want to see the sites, right?
And so at the time I really had no ideawhat that was, but I knew in theory you
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have tens of thousands of people in onecentral location for hours on end, where
you have brands already invested in thebusiness of sports through sponsorship.
And I just felt that there was just aperfect combination of where consumer
engagement and marketing can livetogether.
And so this idea just kind of kicked in myhead for, for quite some time.
(08:41):
And then as, as things went on, I startednoticing trends in digital signage and I
was in and around technology, you know,being in this advertising environment and
starting to see interactive technologykind of taking fold.
And then I, and then it sort of dawned onme where it was like,
interactive kiosks you know I started tosee these wayfinding kiosks in malls and
(09:04):
you know the Xbox connect and playstationswere really coming to fold and you know my
brother was very much more of a gamer thanI was were really technical and seeing you
know his gaming activities and I thoughtsimulated sporting experiences where if
you
take this Xbox or this Madden likeexperience out of your home and bring it
(09:25):
into a venue where you can create thesecustomized, you know, branded games to an
event, right?
Where you could have say the Coca -Colaversion of a Madden football game where
the users could participate.
And so I kind of sketched out these, theseinteractive kiosks.
And I thought, yeah, this is the module,right?
This is, this is what could possibly bringthis all together.
(09:48):
And so,
I was down in Tampa on an ad pitch workingfor this other company and I was in Tampa
for a few days and I was literallyobsessing.
I just could not, I was like a crazyperson.
I could not get this idea out of my headand I was obsessing over it and I had a
(10:09):
little bit of downtime and I told myself,okay, here I am in Tampa.
They have three major sports teams here.
I'm going to do my best to get in frontof.
Either the box, the lightning or the, theraves to see if they'll take a call and
just hear me out.
So I went online, I scoured YouTube.
I had no database of contacts.
(10:29):
I just tried to find contact information.
So I happened to find a YouTube channelfor the Tampa Bay Rays.
I found a marketing manager named BrianKillingsworth, who was at a bar event for
the Tampa Bay Rays.
He seemed about my age.
He seemed like a likable guy, like theyseemed friendly.
(10:49):
He had his contact information in thatYouTube video.
And so I called him up and it happened tobe February, March.
So it was the pre -season and he said,sure, you know, I'm taking meetings.
It's the pre -season.
Why don't you come on down?
And I told him I was in town just for afew days.
And the next day I brazenly showed up tohis office in St.
(11:11):
Pete's.
He was, his office was at the stadium.
I had no collateral, no business card andessentially
pitched him what I'm explaining to youguys right now.
And he goes, you know, we just had ameeting about this because, you know,
we're in St.
Pete's, it's about 40 minutes from Tampa,we can't really get fans from Monday to
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Wednesday in our stadium.
And we were just thinking about ways howwe can Disney fi Tropicana field, like how
do we get attractions?
And we were thinking about ways that wecan like really enhance our venue and
create fan experiences.
I said, yes, that's the vision, you know,and you want to create this entertainment
like environment where it's just not aboutthe game.
(11:56):
Because obviously that's very important,but you need to use these other marketing
points and you know, you can help thesponsors or you can help underwrite these
experiences through the sponsorships andso on.
And he goes, you know, this is great.
You know, how much is, how much does thisstuff cost?
And I go, I don't know.
Give me three months.
Give me some time.
And so, you know, I was very candid with,you know, where we, where I was with, you
(12:19):
know, this sort of vision and thecapabilities, but I essentially left that
meeting doing cartwheels.
I thought I had discovered, you know,bread, right?
It was just like, I discovered somethingand.
As in saying, and again, I always tellpeople I would not recommend starting a
business on an anecdotal meeting or just agood idea.
(12:40):
Like there's a lot more that goes into it,but I was naive, which is his superpower
in many ways.
you know, when you don't know what youdon't know and you can use that to your
strength.
But I went back to New York and you know,with that information, I did present this
to my then boss who I said, listen, I canspin up a sports and entertainment.
(13:02):
division of our company and let me run it.
And, you know, I think we need to createthese, these modules, if you will.
And it didn't stick it completely divertedfrom what their normal business was.
So I don't blame them, you know, and itwould have been a totally different entity
for the company, but, you know, thank,thank God in many ways, like, you know,
it's, but I, you know, took about anothermonth or two to get my affairs in order.
(13:27):
And I got enough courage and took theleap.
I quit my job and.
incorporated literally the end of Apriland launched in May 2012.
Was it just you that started?
It was just me.
That's right.
Yeah.
That is very interesting from anentrepreneurial theory point of view.
So you started it and then how do youcreate the kiosks?
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How do you create the hardware to sell tothe many teams that you have sold to?
And in a few minutes I'll talk about oneor two of
the interactive activities you have, butfrom the evolution of this, so you're
there alone, said, okay, you are, it'syou, yourself, and that's it.
(14:15):
And you're not a software engineer.
I'm not a software engineer.
I barely knew how to plug in a computer.
I didn't know operating systems, but I hada lot of friends and I knew a lot of
people that did.
And, you know, I,
You know, worked with people in the pastthat that could help or at least thought I
(14:37):
could help.
And I had friends and what I callbelievers, right?
And so, and by the way, this is ashameless plug and I, my, my marketing
director would yell at me if I didn'tmention this, but all of this can be read
in my book called beyond the jumbotronwhere you can purchase this on Amazon or
any North American book retailers.
(14:57):
So,
And I was going to announce that yes,Jumbotron creating fan experience to
immersive technology It is a fascinatingbook a short read It is you know full of
Codes there, you know, obviously pointyour phone to get more Into it even has a
(15:20):
feel of something interactive as well.
So I'm just curious on the book the bookJumbotron
What kind of readers are you trying toreach?
Well, all, you know, the inspiration forthe book.
Well, actually, let me, let me finish,finish this question.
I don't want to jump over that.
It's just, just because, you know, itshould, it should be said, and I want to
(15:42):
give credit to where, where it's due withall the people that had helped.
And so, you know, I had friends and, youknow, previous partners that, you know, we
worked tirelessly, just researching andfinding fabricators and.
ordering television screens and computersand you know, we were working, you know,
overnight figuring out how we were goingto make television screens into
(16:06):
touchscreens and hot gluing thingstogether and, you know, figuring out
operating systems.
And I had learned so much within thatthree months of prototyping, building out
a kiosks that I went from.
literally zero to one that old adage andbuilding out this kiosk and finding a
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fabricator in Chicago, ordering screensfrom California and getting computer parts
from our fine friends in B &H in New YorkCity on 9th Avenue there.
That's my favorite electronics store andjust working out of a photography studio
in Philadelphia and.
(16:50):
know, just making it out of sheer willand, you know, all meanwhile, trying to
sell concepts to professional teams andsports league in which, you know, we were
able to successfully do with the NBA andthat very prototype was our first proof of
concept that we sold to the NBA for ourfirst engagement.
(17:14):
And, and, that's really where whatlaunched our business where I.
I kind of joke that I forest gumpt my wayinto the NBA league office where, Mark
Tatum took my call and he's now theassistant commissioner of the league.
At that time, he was the executive globalmarketing manager and I pitched him, you
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know, essentially, you know, a fewconcepts of what our interactive kiosk
could do.
And at that time, you know, this was wellbefore Snapchat and, you know, we call.
our kiosk, the morphing station with theidea that we were going to create these
face filters and, you know, we can engageand fans and, and create all of these
photo augmented reality experiences.
(17:57):
And he had no idea what the heck I wastalking about.
And he goes, but this sounds interesting.
Why don't you talk to my event team?
And I spoke to the event team and theysaid, yeah, this sounds, this sounds
great.
We put on an all star weekend that we calljam session.
we take over the city.
The next jam session is in February overpresident's weekend in Houston.
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This is February, 2013.
You know, what we can do is if you come upwith a concept and we can give you floor
space and you know, it's a big conventioncenter, you know, we're there all weekend
and this way you can show off yourprototype.
And if it goes well, you know, we'll giveyou the showcase and we're not going to
pay you for it, but we'll give you ticketsto the all -star game.
(18:39):
You want to go to see the dunk contest.
You want to see.
know, three point contest, you know,that's what we can do for you.
And so we came up with this concept ofcreating digital bobbleheads of fans,
right?
So you could go up to this kiosk, chooseyour custom figurine, if it did, you know,
your Easter West conference and choose funhairstyles and then using face filters,
you know, convert you into a digitalbobblehead that you could share to social
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and you receive an email and all of that.
And again, this was pre Snapchat, no oneknew what face filters were.
And so we went down to Houston.
And good on the NBA, they put us rightnext to the autograph stage.
And so we had every NBA legend walk by ourkiosk and the line queue was, you know, a
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hundred deep the entire weekend.
And, you know, I give a lot of credit toour now managing director, Billy Blatty.
He was, you know, his main goal for thatweekend in, in, in Houston was to get
every area team.
and sponsor in front of our kiosk and wepitched and pitched and pitched and we
literally walked home with a six figurecontract with the NBA league banking
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sponsor who at the time was BBVA Compass.
And then we worked with all of theirHouston sports teams throughout the rest
of the year.
And hard work, guts and a vision.
And since then...
Well, not in the long run because at thispoint you have a number of teams that you
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provide services for.
And I wanted to give a couple of examplesof the interactive activities you do, you
know, for listeners out there.
And one was that struck me was the USAAquarterback qualification challenge.
And in this game, users have 45 seconds tothrow footballs at three targets.
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that correspond to their on -screencharacter, moving from one end zone to the
other.
A leaderboard displays the fastest times.
So in such a interactive activity, whatfans are you looking for to participate in
this kind of activity?
Yeah, yeah, that's a great question.
(20:57):
And so we're fortunate enough each yearthat we get to work with USAA and their
agency 160 over 90.
to activate not only at the Army Navy gameeach year, which is usually in December.
It's a great year end activation for us.
It's in the middle of December.
So it's a great year or great end of yearactivation and kind of wraps up the year
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for us.
And it's a great camaraderie.
It's obviously the Army Navy game.
So yeah, there's a lot of sense ofcamaraderie and pride and all of that.
And so working with a financial brand isreally,
interesting and compelling for us becauseI think from a brand perspective and
immersive technology, you know, you don'tnecessarily put those two together, right?
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But we say this all the time and we werejust had another financial company that we
were talking to yesterday and they'relike, you know, we're kind of a stale
brand and you know, we're insurance andCDs and investments and you know, I don't
know how.
We're not fun and exciting for sports fan.
I said, no, you are, but this is where wereally create value because we can weave
your brand and your messaging to make itmake sense for this type of engagement.
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And so what this immersive technology andcreative technology allows is that's where
that communication piece comes into playbecause as you're participating in this
quarterback challenge,
it's weaving in a couple of things.
Obviously, USAA is a very military centricbrand.
They're exclusively for family members andservicemen in the military.
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And so, you know, the messaging there isthey wanted to have a bit of a military
type engagement tying into a footballexperience, right?
And so a quarterback challengeimplementing target practice and targets,
was this sort of seamless integration intobeing hitting the bullseyes or hitting
(22:59):
your goals.
And so when you talk about financialgoals, you talk about maybe a shooting
range, you weave in football, so you getyour target practice.
And so what we were able to do isstrategically place on a, I think it was
about a 30 yard strip of field.
We put, I don't want to say mannequins,but they were dummies, player dummies.
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We built out impact sensors that,
each dummy had on their chest and so asfans were users through the footballs they
would hit the sensors but then we had abig LED board that had the animated
players run across the field so as theballs would hit the sensors on the dummy
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the animations on the LED board would cometo life registered your score so there was
the big crowd awareness and so you wouldhit your goal financial goals you had your
target practice.
And then obviously you were participatingin the athletic football event.
So it was a nice sort of combination ofholistically weaving in all of the brand
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guidelines and it made a ton of sense forthe event and fans had a lot of fun
participating in it.
When you participate in an event likethis, in an activity like this, do you
have to supply any kind of datainformation?
Very good question.
That's...
Exclusively almost always the case.
(24:23):
Yes, absolutely.
And, you know, something we like to sayis, you know, we always focus on the front
end fun experience.
Undoubtedly, you know, we generally notthat out of the park, but we are
competitive advantages, the amount offocus and attention that we put into the
user generated content and the data thatbrands require and should utilize.
(24:47):
So what we do is as lines queue,
for these activations, we develop a QRmobile registration application.
There's a QR sign.
Fans will scan their QR code and haveregistration, a web -based registration
form will appear on their phone.
So then we start inputting theirinformation.
(25:08):
So that's where you can also mill someinformation that makes sense for the
brand.
So if you are a financial brand, you caneasily ask them, hey, are you a military
serviceman?
Are you affiliated with Army?
Are you affiliated with Navy?
And very simple questions, but mostimportantly, name, email address, phone
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number, all data that they can store intotheir CRM for remarketing and sort of
promotional items after the activation.
So, and it's a great time killer becauseas the fans are waiting, they're not sort
of bored just waiting and gettingfrustrated waiting for their turn.
They're just, you know,
Enrolling in this participation.
(25:50):
So it feels natural.
You know, we've all been in a theme parkwhere it's like, my gosh, I have nothing
to do.
I'm just in this snake line, just waitingto get onto this ride.
And so there's ways that you can keep theusers engaged and we can create light
games during this mobile experience aswell.
And so as they get into the participationof the event, they can also scan that QR
(26:12):
code when they step up to the game wherenow their information is.
displayed, get ready, Mark, it is yourturn.
So there's that vanity play like, wow, I'malready cute and like, I'm ready to go.
So they participate.
There's usually a photo or video recordingof the user's participation.
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So when the email is distributed to them,it's a branded memento in the form of an
email or a text message that they canshare socially download and send to their
friends or post across social media.
And what do you do about children playingsome of these games?
Maybe not this one because it's aninsurance company for veterans and
(26:55):
military personnel, but you had the 2023Women's Final Four tournament and that
activity is there.
So was that a broader audience?
And if indeed you do cater or allow thoseunder 18 to play or compete, do you have
to have restrictions on the informationthey give?
(27:16):
Yeah, that's a very good question.
Generally it's not a problem, but thereare, you know, UX or user experience
concerns or considerations that we have tomake, you know, with technology.
So obviously when you're using 3D scan or3D cameras, when you're using the user's
body as the remote control, there'sdifferent height requirements when...
(27:39):
If we're doing a virtual field goalkicking game, when you have an adult
kicking their leg versus a toddler kickingtheir leg, you know, you have to make sure
that the tracking systems can align for awide range of heights and body sizes.
And so that's something that we have toconsider when building out the algorithms
for the experiences.
I will say, when we work with alcoholbrands, we do have to age gate, some of
(28:05):
the experiences.
And so we can get creative with the.
what's called the UI or user interfacewhere during that registration piece, we
have an opt in where are you over 21?
If you click no, then we kind of redirectthem into a different participation or a
(28:27):
different area so we can avoid anyconflict there.
How young can a child participant be insome of these?
immersive activities.
Good question.
So we very young and this past summer andthere will be continuing this campaign for
two more years, but we're working withgogo squeeze, you know, so the, the
(28:48):
pouched applesauce brand, they're, they'rea partner with the Canadian women's soccer
team.
And so they go on a mobile tour throughoutCanada all summer and it is specifically
designed for young kids.
And so it's a virtual penalty, penaltykicking game.
And so, it's enough.
(29:10):
A trailer that they bring throughoutCanada.
And we have a large digital screen insidethat trailer where it's again, using a 3d
camera that we're tracking kids of allages.
And so the strategy there is we havedifferent age groupings.
So there's a brand ambassador.
So when a child comes on,
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we ask the parents what age grouping theyfit in.
And so there's a grouping, so zero tothree, four to eight, nine above.
And then once they click that agegrouping, the technology can adjust based
on the user.
And what information has to be disclosedbefore the person can participate?
(29:52):
Because in the example with the USAquarterback qualification, it said name,
address, email.
with children, isn't that morerestrictive?
I mean, there are laws that restrict itcertainly to those under 14 from that
information.
So how do you deal with that particularissue?
Yep.
That experience there is absolutely noshared information.
(30:16):
There's just general waivers in terms ofliability of participation that you agree
that if you slip and fall, you slip andfall and that we're not responsible for.
the unfortunate injury that may happen.
Thank God there's never been said injury,but yeah, when there's a child focused
(30:37):
event, we don't require any datainformation.
And, you know, brands are pretty clearwith understanding that and they don't
look to mill that information.
And, you know, Coca -Cola is a goodexample of that.
When we ever work with that brand inparticular, you know, their, their
marketing strategy in general is mostly wejust want to.
create the experience and just own theexperience.
(30:59):
It's not about collecting userinformation.
It's just, we want to know that Coca -Colapresented this and created this for the
event.
And this was the shareable moment thatfans can participate in.
So most of your deals are with brands asopposed to teams.
Is that correct?
Yes.
But that thankfully is changing.
(31:22):
And that's a very good point.
And I think that's where the evolution of
experiential marketing, as well as fanexperience as a genre has really shifted
back 10 years ago.
You know, when, when we would sell toteams, fan experience really meant
concessions and a jumbo drawn and maybewifi.
(31:42):
And so we were really ahead of ourselvesin terms of where stadium operations or
marketing even considered what fanexperience was where.
Anything that we are producing or wereproducing was considered a nice to have
where now it's very much considered a musthave.
And this sponsored activation orexperiential marketing is now a key
(32:05):
category within a holistic or integratedmarketing platform.
And so I think the demand to create thatfull day experience or that unique, you
can only experience what you're doing hereat
at our stadium is more important than everbecause the at home viewing experience and
(32:27):
all the other ways that you can consume agame is so good right now.
Properties are really, really pressured tocreate a really unique and one of a kind
experience by attending the game and thisis one way that they can help.
So we are with James Giglio and we'retalking about X -Files.
(32:49):
experiential marketing and he is theauthor of Beyond the Jumbotron, creating
fan experience through immersivetechnology.
So what do you think are some of the areasof potential growth that have been
untapped?
That's a good question.
You know, I think as a business, when itcomes to the stadium business and
(33:13):
sponsorship,
I firmly believe that there's anopportunity for sports sponsorship to be
disrupted.
And what I mean by that is the sports fanis such a coveted consumer to be marketed
to because of who they are and the passionthey bring and the loyalty that they can
(33:38):
commit to a particular brand.
I mean, fans.
are fanatical, right?
Like that's, that's essentially where thatword comes from.
Right.
And so if you're a brand that you can tapin and tie a passion to a particular fan,
I think that's, that's a really strongloyalty and consumer to market to, but
(34:00):
the, the business of sponsorship is reallyone of which that is closed doors.
And, and I think from an ownershipperspective that.
The traditional mindset or the traditionalbusiness model is, okay, I'm a, I'm a, I'm
a team owner.
I have a, I have a group of corporatepartnership salespeople.
(34:25):
I want to bring in maybe 10 new corporatesponsors and I want to lock them in as
long as possible for as much money aspossible.
Well, there's only so many brands that canafford that or that can.
you know, underwrite that type of contractand you're boxing out so many different
(34:47):
brands that would love to be marketinginside your building or marketing to your
fans.
And so because of that model, I thinkthere's a host of brands that are really
boxed out.
And so I think that, you know, throughvarious out of home advertising channels
and out of home advertising networks,there's going to be evolving
(35:09):
opportunities.
Even for companies like myself, and Ithink we're embarking on a sort of a pivot
for ourselves to kind of create an adnetwork to allow, you know, these non
endemic brands or non competitivesponsorship sponsor brands to enter the
stadium business, to market to fans forour gaming devices at a fraction of the
(35:34):
investment and term of a traditionalsponsorship.
So I firmly believe that now.
That could come in many other ways aswell.
You know, that could come in incrementalmarketing dollars, whether, you know,
there are TV ads in bathrooms, concessionads, other out of home advertising
channels throughout the stadium,interactive kiosks like ours.
(35:58):
I just think that there's so many otherways that stadiums can monetize their
buildings if they just thought differentlyon how they sell sponsorship, if they just
opened up access to.
a more broad business model.
Or let me posit something else.
What about increased carve outs to smallertype of areas for some of the brands?
(36:21):
So instead of the official sedan, it's theofficial, you know, sporty sedan or the
official.
Yeah, exactly.
Quasi truck, you know, whatever it may be.
Exactly.
You know, I tell my students there arefour types of bottled water.
Right.
And possibly if you carve it out that way,the rights fees cumulatively will be more,
(36:44):
but they could be cheaper as well.
And so, you know, what's the differencebetween Cartesian water and carbonated
water?
Well, there is a difference.
Yep.
And so maybe that's a possibility.
And maybe with children's items too, andthe alternative broadcasting issue of, you
know, the sponge bobification of a SuperBowl can be an option as well.
(37:06):
I agree.
I absolutely agree.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I hope to see it come.
You know, I really do.
I think that it would, you know, it wouldbring a lot of value to, to, to properties
and, and brands.
And I, and I think there's a host of localregional brands that, that really deserve
access to the properties and to the teamsas well.
(37:29):
And, you know, listen, I think loyaltyprogramming is a big miss.
In the pro sports world too.
Like, I mean, you can't get a credit cardor fly on an airplane or, you know, get on
any transit without any type of loyaltyprogramming.
Why isn't that in part of a sports team?
Right.
And why isn't that embedded throughoutyour community?
Like I live in Philadelphia.
(37:51):
It's a major sports city.
You know, why isn't there any campaignwith any bank that, or even with any
particular team that you're earningloyalty points by ordering a sandwich from
here, a mattress from here.
changing your oil from here and then alsobuying a ticket to this game and that
game.
Like it just doesn't make sense to me.
Like that could be, and then like you cansell that sponsorship package to be a part
(38:14):
of that couponing or that loyaltyprogramming.
And at one time there was, there were someattempts I'd say about 20 years ago
because I had one of those cards and itwas disbanded.
I'm not going to mention the team and thecompany, but it was disbanded.
And I think it was because at that timethey didn't,
tell fans what you could do with it.
(38:36):
And they were competing with the airlinescredit cards, which gave a lot more
options as well.
That's my thought.
If anybody out there would want to debateand write me, they can certainly can.
But I think, but it's a very good point.
We're in a different era and people areusing credit cards, you know, much, much
more, especially since COVID, you know,cash is so rare.
(38:58):
So it could very well be an idea to dothat.
You know, there's been things that havebeen ahead of its time, right?
And what's old is new and we can talkabout the QR code.
I mean, that thing tried for 20 yearsbefore it got big.
And so you can give it a go again.
So where do you see the technology goingin the next five years?
You know, we sort of are moving from AR VRdistinctions, as you said.
(39:23):
So where we see, you know, this immersivetechnology going the way you see it.
Particularly, I mean, I don't know if thisbodes well for me per se.
I mean, I can make the argument both ways,but I think personally, I think spatial
computing is extremely fascinating and Iam very, I've been high on mixed reality
(39:44):
headsets for many years.
And as the Apple Vision Pro has finallycome to market and knowing that this is
going to be the worst iteration of thatproduct that's out there and what it's
capable of doing in its current state.
very positive forward look as to what'spossible.
And so I think again, from a propertyperspective or broadcast perspective, it's
(40:08):
going to put a lot of pressure again onownership of creating a better in game
experience or in stadium experience,because what the capabilities are in
spatial computing and mixed reality isreally fascinating.
And so that is a perfect example of what
mixed reality is blending that digital andphysical world together and watching,
(40:33):
there's an app right now on the VisionPro, the PGA Tour app, and being able to
choose any hole on the tournament andexpanding it in AR and spinning it and
then watching the flight path of each holeand then being able to analyze it, it's
just such a cool and creative way towatch.
(40:56):
golf and see the statistics and have anewsfeed and then have broadcast feed all
at the same time.
And by the way, you can just walkthroughout your living room and not
disrupt your maneuverability because thereis the pass -through capability.
And so I believe that technology is goingvery similar to what the iPhone has done
(41:16):
in terms of changing the way we live.
I do think mixed reality is going tochange the way that we interact with the
world when headsets are.
trimmed down to a more utility eyewear,where it's not going to be these sort of
ridiculous snow goggle headsets.
And they look like, you know, the glassesthat you're wearing now.
(41:37):
And, you know, we're going to be able to,you know, pull up our navigation, our map
and find details and things.
And so I personally, this may be more of apersonal perspective, but I just do not
see the future not heading that way.
And so when it comes to broadcast, you hadmentioned,
I think that's the way the future is goingto go.
And so I think as it relates to where ourtype of business and where the in -game
(42:01):
experience needs to be is the, again,properties are going to be really
challenged with, all right, it's no longerthe man cave.
It's now the man cave in spatial computingand the luxuries of home.
Like we really need to amp up what the in-venue experience is because, you know,
it's, it's going to be really cool in fiveyears just to watch five games at one.
in 3D.
(42:23):
Well, would you think of expanding to thatsort of evolving and taking the in
-stadium experience and trying to dosomething by stream or alternate or work
with a team to do some kind of alternatebroadcasting techniques with various games
interspersed at halftime or betweenperiods or between innings and say stick
(42:45):
around on this.
Hey, you can try to be, you know, yourvirtual designated hitter.
Absolutely.
We've played around with that.
You know, you'd mentioned the spongeBobbification, which I love it.
And you know, Nickelodeon does a fantasticjob.
We've toyed around with a couple ofconcepts laying AR over live broadcasts.
So yeah, absolutely.
Do you also think of an idea of,specifying broadcasts for novices, people
(43:10):
that may not be as knowledgeable about thesport and let's say somebody who's not,
born into American football, but.
maybe English soccer or, you know, fromanother country and find football
difficult to understand, which it can be.
so, and maybe, alternate broadcast with,Hey, practice throwing a ball.
(43:33):
Yeah.
Practice.
So another example is like the TaylorSwift phenomenon.
How many new fans did she bring tofootball that had no idea what the heck
was happening on the field?
So I think, you know, when you can,
bring in that level of fan base at thatvolume that has no idea what's happening,
(43:53):
but they just want to get that, you know,15 second clip of her in the, in the, in
the suite, but want to watch the game forthat, but then sort of get intrigued with
the game, but not knowing what a penaltyis, not knowing what a first down is that
that's a very good point and perspectiveto get that educational piece.
And yeah, yeah, there, there was a lot ofopportunity there.
(44:14):
And, before we go, I,
I forgot to ask earlier, how many teams doyou have any affiliation agreements with?
Well, I would say we've had over 60, youknow, over the years.
And so we've named a team and we'veprobably have worked with them at some
point.
And, you know, our active roster is alwaysevolving, you know, as seasons ends and
(44:38):
seasons start up again.
So, yeah, you know, we're really excitedabout, you know, we have some news coming
out next week.
about our, it'll be the first in stadiumadvertising network with our interactive
gaming kiosks.
And so we're going to bring that out tothe market.
And so I think it's, it's really going toexpand what we talked about with allowing
(45:01):
brands to enter a closed off market andgiving properties a way to subsidize
income and opening up and monetizeunderutilized areas of their stadiums and
generate revenue.
for their properties and their teams to tomaximize their their income and and just
open up a new audience of Advertisers aswell as enhance their their fan experience
(45:26):
with our technology now those of us hereor I shouldn't say me but say young people
students who want to break into this areaWhat advice would you give them from the
technical side or the marketing side?
Well, I I think you know my myrecommendation is is
is going the agency route.
(45:47):
Frankly, I think working with sportsmarketing agencies or experiential
marketing agencies, you'll have anopportunity to get a more wide range of
domain expertise, if you will.
So you'll have the opportunity to get yourhands involved in in live event
technology, the marketing.
(46:08):
So look to companies like CAA 160 over 90Wasserman.
I think working on the property side willbe valuable when I mean property, the team
side, but you'll be not siloed to yourroles and responsibilities, but it will be
a very refined to that individualorganization where you work with an
(46:31):
agency, you'll have many different brandsto work with.
You'll be working within many differentevents, many different environments, and
then you get to work with a host ofdifferent vendors that have a different
skill set.
in their technology.
And so, you know, more and more of theseagencies are trying to spin up some
technical stack as well.
(46:51):
And so I think that would be myrecommendation is, you know, take a look
at the agency world to kind of reallylearn and, you know, before you really
dive into the team or property side.
Well, on that note, unfortunately, ourtime has come and we have to come to a
close on behalf of Fordham University, theGabelli School of Business.
(47:13):
and the Sports Business Initiative.
Thanks to James Giglio for an engaging andinformative discussion.
You helped to educate this older non -techguy.
And I thank you so much for anilluminating time, an illuminating
interview.
And thanks to my producer, Victoria Ilano,for her great work.
(47:36):
And thanks to all of you for listening in.
For the Sports Business Podcast atFordham's Gabelli School of Business, I'm
Mark Conrad, or Prof.
C, have a great day.
Hello and welcome to the Sports BusinessPodcast with Prof.
C, the podcast that explores the world ofprofessional, collegiate, amateur, and
Olympic sports.
I'm Mark Conrad, or Prof.
C, from Fordham University's GabelliSchool of Business, where I serve as
(00:28):
Professor of Law and Ethics and theDirector of the Sports Business
Initiative.
On our podcast, we have discussed issuesof technology and sports, and for this
episode, we will dive into what is knownas immersive technology and how this kind
of delivery system can rethink how sportsteams and brands can engage with fans.
(00:54):
With me to discuss the potential ofimmersive technology and how it is
currently used is James Giglio.
the founder and CEO of MVP Interactive, afirm that engages in using immersive
technology in the sports area.
James, welcome to the Sports BusinessPodcast.
(01:17):
Well, thank you for having me, Prop C.
I can be James G just to kind of keep themoniker going here.
that's very good.
Okay.
It rhymes too.
So for those of us who don't know or maynot know,
What do we mean by immersive technology?
Yeah, it's a good question.
(01:37):
And, you know, obviously I don't thinkit's a part of the everyday nomenclature
of our everyday lives.
And so I think the easiest and simplestway to describe it is really the blend of
a digital and physical environment.
And so that could be a wide range ofdigital technologies, most notably known
(01:58):
as augmented reality or virtual reality.
But it's really not secluded to just thosetwo technologies where there is a host of
gesture based experiences that.
Technologies can integrate a individualinto an experience that again blends a
(02:18):
physical environment with a digital screenor digital environment that allows a user
to immerse themselves into an environmentby using.
3d sensors or peripheral technologydevices to really allow yourself to escape
into a setting both digitally andphysically at the same time and so you
(02:40):
know for many years when we would try todescribe our tech our company mvp
interactive it was very hard because youcan imagine ten years ago when you were
talking about a rvr that wasn'tnecessarily a trending topic so.
You know it was a bit of a tongue twistertrying to sell our technology to sports
teams or marketers trying to explain whatimmersive technology or creative
(03:05):
technology was and so you know I think theuse or right around 2020 2021 the term XR
or mixed reality had sort of come to foldthrough the metaverse or augmented reality
technologies or you know when NFT started.
(03:25):
of come to light.
And I think when Apple was started teasingtheir Vision Pro products that were sort
of teasing out into the market that thisdefinition of mixed reality kind of came
to light where immersive technologies werestarting to find its way into the
(03:45):
marketing world and definition and wherepeople now have a better understanding
that mixed reality.
is really a combination of all thesetechnologies that fold under the umbrella
of immersive technology.
And when did you start MVP interactive?
Yeah, it was the spring of 2012, May 1stto be exact.
(04:09):
And why at that time and why this companyand where did you come from to get to the
point of starting MVP interactive?
Yeah, well, it was,
Kind of a crazy story.
I had been working in advertising inparticular, the out of home advertising
realm.
And, you know, this was back in 2008 withthe advent of the iPhone.
(04:33):
And as you remember, when the iPhone sortof came to market, it really
revolutionized how we communicated notonly on our mobile devices, but how we
interacted with technology and brands.
And with the use of mobile apps, we sawthe trend on not only entertainment,
applications and how we would kill timeand how we would just use these fun, quick
(04:55):
hit gamified experiences on our phone toentertain ourselves, but how we could use
our mobile devices to interact with oureveryday lives, whether it was mobile
banking or communication.
And so I started to see a trend wherebrands were really leaning into technology
and being in and around New York, youstarted to see stunting marketing
(05:17):
campaigns, right?
Where.
they would be called, you know, stationdomination activations, right?
Where you'd go through Penn Station or aGrand Central Station and there would be a
brand that would, you know, build a propset of some sort.
And, you know, they would create this sortof entertaining footprint where, you know,
commuters would go by and they werehanding out these sort of tchotchkes.
(05:39):
And, you know, it was a great way to kindof generate some PR and some buzz around
the brand for a particular promotion.
And,
You know it just felt a little more analogin terms of how marketing was leaning
towards a face to face communication withindividuals.
But I knew technology just as a generalinterest of mine where I was by no means a
(06:03):
software developer or a techietraditionally.
But I was always very interested in therealm of technology but more importantly I
just saw.
a trend in where technology was evolvingand how it was going to change our life
because of the iPhone.
Granted, I was always a sports fan andgrowing up playing sports and attending
(06:24):
sports games, I had a distinct memory ofattending games and walking the concourse
and being solicited by brands for exchangeof information and in a very similar
fashion.
credit card companies or banking companieslooking for applications to fill out for,
(06:46):
you know, for fans so they can get a towelor a foam finger or some type of light
tchotchke again.
And, you know, having this yard bark kindof experience walking through games.
And I felt, you know, through the last fewyears from 2008 to 2010, 2011, 2012, that,
you know, what a perfect way.
by attending a sports environment orsports game that you can tap into the
(07:11):
passion of attending a live event like asports game that you can leverage
technology as a two way form ofcommunication between a brand and a fan by
allowing a fan to interact with the brandin a very seamless way by giving this fan
a really unique experience throughtechnology where it doesn't seem so.
(07:31):
So it was this frictionless communication,we like to say, where you could
essentially go up to some type ofinteractive technology and participate in
something for a very seamless exchange ofinformation with generally a brand that
you may not be interested in, right?
But it just felt natural because you wereimmersed in this environment, you were
(07:54):
attending a game.
And as you know, when you attend a game,you're investing in...
full day of your time, as well as a prettysignificant financial investment.
So you really want to maximize your timeand your dollar.
And so you want to see the sites, right?
And so at the time I really had no ideawhat that was, but I knew in theory you
(08:16):
have tens of thousands of people in onecentral location for hours on end, where
you have brands already invested in thebusiness of sports through sponsorship.
And I just felt that there was just aperfect combination of where consumer
engagement and marketing can livetogether.
And so this idea just kind of kicked in myhead for, for quite some time.
(08:41):
And then as, as things went on, I startednoticing trends in digital signage and I
was in and around technology, you know,being in this advertising environment and
starting to see interactive technologykind of taking fold.
And then I, and then it sort of dawned onme where it was like,
interactive kiosks you know I started tosee these wayfinding kiosks in malls and
(09:04):
you know the Xbox connect and playstationswere really coming to fold and you know my
brother was very much more of a gamer thanI was were really technical and seeing you
know his gaming activities and I thoughtsimulated sporting experiences where if
you
take this Xbox or this Madden likeexperience out of your home and bring it
(09:25):
into a venue where you can create thesecustomized, you know, branded games to an
event, right?
Where you could have say the Coca -Colaversion of a Madden football game where
the users could participate.
And so I kind of sketched out these, theseinteractive kiosks.
And I thought, yeah, this is the module,right?
This is, this is what could possibly bringthis all together.
(09:48):
And so,
I was down in Tampa on an ad pitch workingfor this other company and I was in Tampa
for a few days and I was literallyobsessing.
I just could not, I was like a crazyperson.
I could not get this idea out of my headand I was obsessing over it and I had a
(10:09):
little bit of downtime and I told myself,okay, here I am in Tampa.
They have three major sports teams here.
I'm going to do my best to get in frontof.
Either the box, the lightning or the, theraves to see if they'll take a call and
just hear me out.
So I went online, I scoured YouTube.
I had no database of contacts.
(10:29):
I just tried to find contact information.
So I happened to find a YouTube channelfor the Tampa Bay Rays.
I found a marketing manager named BrianKillingsworth, who was at a bar event for
the Tampa Bay Rays.
He seemed about my age.
He seemed like a likable guy, like theyseemed friendly.
(10:49):
He had his contact information in thatYouTube video.
And so I called him up and it happened tobe February, March.
So it was the pre -season and he said,sure, you know, I'm taking meetings.
It's the pre -season.
Why don't you come on down?
And I told him I was in town just for afew days.
And the next day I brazenly showed up tohis office in St.
(11:11):
Pete's.
He was, his office was at the stadium.
I had no collateral, no business card andessentially
pitched him what I'm explaining to youguys right now.
And he goes, you know, we just had ameeting about this because, you know,
we're in St.
Pete's, it's about 40 minutes from Tampa,we can't really get fans from Monday to
(11:33):
Wednesday in our stadium.
And we were just thinking about ways howwe can Disney fi Tropicana field, like how
do we get attractions?
And we were thinking about ways that wecan like really enhance our venue and
create fan experiences.
I said, yes, that's the vision, you know,and you want to create this entertainment
like environment where it's just not aboutthe game.
(11:56):
Because obviously that's very important,but you need to use these other marketing
points and you know, you can help thesponsors or you can help underwrite these
experiences through the sponsorships andso on.
And he goes, you know, this is great.
You know, how much is, how much does thisstuff cost?
And I go, I don't know.
Give me three months.
Give me some time.
And so, you know, I was very candid with,you know, where we, where I was with, you
(12:19):
know, this sort of vision and thecapabilities, but I essentially left that
meeting doing cartwheels.
I thought I had discovered, you know,bread, right?
It was just like, I discovered somethingand.
As in saying, and again, I always tellpeople I would not recommend starting a
business on an anecdotal meeting or just agood idea.
(12:40):
Like there's a lot more that goes into it,but I was naive, which is his superpower
in many ways.
you know, when you don't know what youdon't know and you can use that to your
strength.
But I went back to New York and you know,with that information, I did present this
to my then boss who I said, listen, I canspin up a sports and entertainment.
(13:02):
division of our company and let me run it.
And, you know, I think we need to createthese, these modules, if you will.
And it didn't stick it completely divertedfrom what their normal business was.
So I don't blame them, you know, and itwould have been a totally different entity
for the company, but, you know, thank,thank God in many ways, like, you know,
it's, but I, you know, took about anothermonth or two to get my affairs in order.
(13:27):
And I got enough courage and took theleap.
I quit my job and.
incorporated literally the end of Apriland launched in May 2012.
Was it just you that started?
It was just me.
That's right.
Yeah.
That is very interesting from anentrepreneurial theory point of view.
So you started it and then how do youcreate the kiosks?
(13:51):
How do you create the hardware to sell tothe many teams that you have sold to?
And in a few minutes I'll talk about oneor two of
the interactive activities you have, butfrom the evolution of this, so you're
there alone, said, okay, you are, it'syou, yourself, and that's it.
(14:15):
And you're not a software engineer.
I'm not a software engineer.
I barely knew how to plug in a computer.
I didn't know operating systems, but I hada lot of friends and I knew a lot of
people that did.
And, you know, I,
You know, worked with people in the pastthat that could help or at least thought I
(14:37):
could help.
And I had friends and what I callbelievers, right?
And so, and by the way, this is ashameless plug and I, my, my marketing
director would yell at me if I didn'tmention this, but all of this can be read
in my book called beyond the jumbotronwhere you can purchase this on Amazon or
any North American book retailers.
(14:57):
So,
And I was going to announce that yes,Jumbotron creating fan experience to
immersive technology It is a fascinatingbook a short read It is you know full of
Codes there, you know, obviously pointyour phone to get more Into it even has a
(15:20):
feel of something interactive as well.
So I'm just curious on the book the bookJumbotron
What kind of readers are you trying toreach?
Well, all, you know, the inspiration forthe book.
Well, actually, let me, let me finish,finish this question.
I don't want to jump over that.
It's just, just because, you know, itshould, it should be said, and I want to
(15:42):
give credit to where, where it's due withall the people that had helped.
And so, you know, I had friends and, youknow, previous partners that, you know, we
worked tirelessly, just researching andfinding fabricators and.
ordering television screens and computersand you know, we were working, you know,
overnight figuring out how we were goingto make television screens into
(16:06):
touchscreens and hot gluing thingstogether and, you know, figuring out
operating systems.
And I had learned so much within thatthree months of prototyping, building out
a kiosks that I went from.
literally zero to one that old adage andbuilding out this kiosk and finding a
(16:29):
fabricator in Chicago, ordering screensfrom California and getting computer parts
from our fine friends in B &H in New YorkCity on 9th Avenue there.
That's my favorite electronics store andjust working out of a photography studio
in Philadelphia and.
(16:50):
know, just making it out of sheer willand, you know, all meanwhile, trying to
sell concepts to professional teams andsports league in which, you know, we were
able to successfully do with the NBA andthat very prototype was our first proof of
concept that we sold to the NBA for ourfirst engagement.
(17:14):
And, and, that's really where whatlaunched our business where I.
I kind of joke that I forest gumpt my wayinto the NBA league office where, Mark
Tatum took my call and he's now theassistant commissioner of the league.
At that time, he was the executive globalmarketing manager and I pitched him, you
(17:36):
know, essentially, you know, a fewconcepts of what our interactive kiosk
could do.
And at that time, you know, this was wellbefore Snapchat and, you know, we call.
our kiosk, the morphing station with theidea that we were going to create these
face filters and, you know, we can engageand fans and, and create all of these
photo augmented reality experiences.
(17:57):
And he had no idea what the heck I wastalking about.
And he goes, but this sounds interesting.
Why don't you talk to my event team?
And I spoke to the event team and theysaid, yeah, this sounds, this sounds
great.
We put on an all star weekend that we calljam session.
we take over the city.
The next jam session is in February overpresident's weekend in Houston.
(18:17):
This is February, 2013.
You know, what we can do is if you come upwith a concept and we can give you floor
space and you know, it's a big conventioncenter, you know, we're there all weekend
and this way you can show off yourprototype.
And if it goes well, you know, we'll giveyou the showcase and we're not going to
pay you for it, but we'll give you ticketsto the all -star game.
(18:39):
You want to go to see the dunk contest.
You want to see.
know, three point contest, you know,that's what we can do for you.
And so we came up with this concept ofcreating digital bobbleheads of fans,
right?
So you could go up to this kiosk, chooseyour custom figurine, if it did, you know,
your Easter West conference and choose funhairstyles and then using face filters,
you know, convert you into a digitalbobblehead that you could share to social
(19:04):
and you receive an email and all of that.
And again, this was pre Snapchat, no oneknew what face filters were.
And so we went down to Houston.
And good on the NBA, they put us rightnext to the autograph stage.
And so we had every NBA legend walk by ourkiosk and the line queue was, you know, a
(19:26):
hundred deep the entire weekend.
And, you know, I give a lot of credit toour now managing director, Billy Blatty.
He was, you know, his main goal for thatweekend in, in, in Houston was to get
every area team.
and sponsor in front of our kiosk and wepitched and pitched and pitched and we
literally walked home with a six figurecontract with the NBA league banking
(19:50):
sponsor who at the time was BBVA Compass.
And then we worked with all of theirHouston sports teams throughout the rest
of the year.
And hard work, guts and a vision.
And since then...
Well, not in the long run because at thispoint you have a number of teams that you
(20:15):
provide services for.
And I wanted to give a couple of examplesof the interactive activities you do, you
know, for listeners out there.
And one was that struck me was the USAAquarterback qualification challenge.
And in this game, users have 45 seconds tothrow footballs at three targets.
(20:37):
that correspond to their on -screencharacter, moving from one end zone to the
other.
A leaderboard displays the fastest times.
So in such a interactive activity, whatfans are you looking for to participate in
this kind of activity?
Yeah, yeah, that's a great question.
(20:57):
And so we're fortunate enough each yearthat we get to work with USAA and their
agency 160 over 90.
to activate not only at the Army Navy gameeach year, which is usually in December.
It's a great year end activation for us.
It's in the middle of December.
So it's a great year or great end of yearactivation and kind of wraps up the year
(21:21):
for us.
And it's a great camaraderie.
It's obviously the Army Navy game.
So yeah, there's a lot of sense ofcamaraderie and pride and all of that.
And so working with a financial brand isreally,
interesting and compelling for us becauseI think from a brand perspective and
immersive technology, you know, you don'tnecessarily put those two together, right?
(21:46):
But we say this all the time and we werejust had another financial company that we
were talking to yesterday and they'relike, you know, we're kind of a stale
brand and you know, we're insurance andCDs and investments and you know, I don't
know how.
We're not fun and exciting for sports fan.
I said, no, you are, but this is where wereally create value because we can weave
your brand and your messaging to make itmake sense for this type of engagement.
(22:11):
And so what this immersive technology andcreative technology allows is that's where
that communication piece comes into playbecause as you're participating in this
quarterback challenge,
it's weaving in a couple of things.
Obviously, USAA is a very military centricbrand.
They're exclusively for family members andservicemen in the military.
(22:36):
And so, you know, the messaging there isthey wanted to have a bit of a military
type engagement tying into a footballexperience, right?
And so a quarterback challengeimplementing target practice and targets,
was this sort of seamless integration intobeing hitting the bullseyes or hitting
(22:59):
your goals.
And so when you talk about financialgoals, you talk about maybe a shooting
range, you weave in football, so you getyour target practice.
And so what we were able to do isstrategically place on a, I think it was
about a 30 yard strip of field.
We put, I don't want to say mannequins,but they were dummies, player dummies.
(23:20):
We built out impact sensors that,
each dummy had on their chest and so asfans were users through the footballs they
would hit the sensors but then we had abig LED board that had the animated
players run across the field so as theballs would hit the sensors on the dummy
(23:40):
the animations on the LED board would cometo life registered your score so there was
the big crowd awareness and so you wouldhit your goal financial goals you had your
target practice.
And then obviously you were participatingin the athletic football event.
So it was a nice sort of combination ofholistically weaving in all of the brand
(24:02):
guidelines and it made a ton of sense forthe event and fans had a lot of fun
participating in it.
When you participate in an event likethis, in an activity like this, do you
have to supply any kind of datainformation?
Very good question.
That's...
Exclusively almost always the case.
(24:23):
Yes, absolutely.
And, you know, something we like to sayis, you know, we always focus on the front
end fun experience.
Undoubtedly, you know, we generally notthat out of the park, but we are
competitive advantages, the amount offocus and attention that we put into the
user generated content and the data thatbrands require and should utilize.
(24:47):
So what we do is as lines queue,
for these activations, we develop a QRmobile registration application.
There's a QR sign.
Fans will scan their QR code and haveregistration, a web -based registration
form will appear on their phone.
So then we start inputting theirinformation.
(25:08):
So that's where you can also mill someinformation that makes sense for the
brand.
So if you are a financial brand, you caneasily ask them, hey, are you a military
serviceman?
Are you affiliated with Army?
Are you affiliated with Navy?
And very simple questions, but mostimportantly, name, email address, phone
(25:29):
number, all data that they can store intotheir CRM for remarketing and sort of
promotional items after the activation.
So, and it's a great time killer becauseas the fans are waiting, they're not sort
of bored just waiting and gettingfrustrated waiting for their turn.
They're just, you know,
Enrolling in this participation.
(25:50):
So it feels natural.
You know, we've all been in a theme parkwhere it's like, my gosh, I have nothing
to do.
I'm just in this snake line, just waitingto get onto this ride.
And so there's ways that you can keep theusers engaged and we can create light
games during this mobile experience aswell.
And so as they get into the participationof the event, they can also scan that QR
(26:12):
code when they step up to the game wherenow their information is.
displayed, get ready, Mark, it is yourturn.
So there's that vanity play like, wow, I'malready cute and like, I'm ready to go.
So they participate.
There's usually a photo or video recordingof the user's participation.
(26:33):
So when the email is distributed to them,it's a branded memento in the form of an
email or a text message that they canshare socially download and send to their
friends or post across social media.
And what do you do about children playingsome of these games?
Maybe not this one because it's aninsurance company for veterans and
(26:55):
military personnel, but you had the 2023Women's Final Four tournament and that
activity is there.
So was that a broader audience?
And if indeed you do cater or allow thoseunder 18 to play or compete, do you have
to have restrictions on the informationthey give?
(27:16):
Yeah, that's a very good question.
Generally it's not a problem, but thereare, you know, UX or user experience
concerns or considerations that we have tomake, you know, with technology.
So obviously when you're using 3D scan or3D cameras, when you're using the user's
body as the remote control, there'sdifferent height requirements when...
(27:39):
If we're doing a virtual field goalkicking game, when you have an adult
kicking their leg versus a toddler kickingtheir leg, you know, you have to make sure
that the tracking systems can align for awide range of heights and body sizes.
And so that's something that we have toconsider when building out the algorithms
for the experiences.
I will say, when we work with alcoholbrands, we do have to age gate, some of
(28:05):
the experiences.
And so we can get creative with the.
what's called the UI or user interfacewhere during that registration piece, we
have an opt in where are you over 21?
If you click no, then we kind of redirectthem into a different participation or a
(28:27):
different area so we can avoid anyconflict there.
How young can a child participant be insome of these?
immersive activities.
Good question.
So we very young and this past summer andthere will be continuing this campaign for
two more years, but we're working withgogo squeeze, you know, so the, the
(28:48):
pouched applesauce brand, they're, they'rea partner with the Canadian women's soccer
team.
And so they go on a mobile tour throughoutCanada all summer and it is specifically
designed for young kids.
And so it's a virtual penalty, penaltykicking game.
And so, it's enough.
(29:10):
A trailer that they bring throughoutCanada.
And we have a large digital screen insidethat trailer where it's again, using a 3d
camera that we're tracking kids of allages.
And so the strategy there is we havedifferent age groupings.
So there's a brand ambassador.
So when a child comes on,
(29:30):
we ask the parents what age grouping theyfit in.
And so there's a grouping, so zero tothree, four to eight, nine above.
And then once they click that agegrouping, the technology can adjust based
on the user.
And what information has to be disclosedbefore the person can participate?
(29:52):
Because in the example with the USAquarterback qualification, it said name,
address, email.
with children, isn't that morerestrictive?
I mean, there are laws that restrict itcertainly to those under 14 from that
information.
So how do you deal with that particularissue?
Yep.
That experience there is absolutely noshared information.
(30:16):
There's just general waivers in terms ofliability of participation that you agree
that if you slip and fall, you slip andfall and that we're not responsible for.
the unfortunate injury that may happen.
Thank God there's never been said injury,but yeah, when there's a child focused
(30:37):
event, we don't require any datainformation.
And, you know, brands are pretty clearwith understanding that and they don't
look to mill that information.
And, you know, Coca -Cola is a goodexample of that.
When we ever work with that brand inparticular, you know, their, their
marketing strategy in general is mostly wejust want to.
create the experience and just own theexperience.
(30:59):
It's not about collecting userinformation.
It's just, we want to know that Coca -Colapresented this and created this for the
event.
And this was the shareable moment thatfans can participate in.
So most of your deals are with brands asopposed to teams.
Is that correct?
Yes.
But that thankfully is changing.
(31:22):
And that's a very good point.
And I think that's where the evolution of
experiential marketing, as well as fanexperience as a genre has really shifted
back 10 years ago.
You know, when, when we would sell toteams, fan experience really meant
concessions and a jumbo drawn and maybewifi.
(31:42):
And so we were really ahead of ourselvesin terms of where stadium operations or
marketing even considered what fanexperience was where.
Anything that we are producing or wereproducing was considered a nice to have
where now it's very much considered a musthave.
And this sponsored activation orexperiential marketing is now a key
(32:05):
category within a holistic or integratedmarketing platform.
And so I think the demand to create thatfull day experience or that unique, you
can only experience what you're doing hereat
at our stadium is more important than everbecause the at home viewing experience and
(32:27):
all the other ways that you can consume agame is so good right now.
Properties are really, really pressured tocreate a really unique and one of a kind
experience by attending the game and thisis one way that they can help.
So we are with James Giglio and we'retalking about X -Files.
(32:49):
experiential marketing and he is theauthor of Beyond the Jumbotron, creating
fan experience through immersivetechnology.
So what do you think are some of the areasof potential growth that have been
untapped?
That's a good question.
You know, I think as a business, when itcomes to the stadium business and
(33:13):
sponsorship,
I firmly believe that there's anopportunity for sports sponsorship to be
disrupted.
And what I mean by that is the sports fanis such a coveted consumer to be marketed
to because of who they are and the passionthey bring and the loyalty that they can
(33:38):
commit to a particular brand.
I mean, fans.
are fanatical, right?
Like that's, that's essentially where thatword comes from.
Right.
And so if you're a brand that you can tapin and tie a passion to a particular fan,
I think that's, that's a really strongloyalty and consumer to market to, but
(34:00):
the, the business of sponsorship is reallyone of which that is closed doors.
And, and I think from an ownershipperspective that.
The traditional mindset or the traditionalbusiness model is, okay, I'm a, I'm a, I'm
a team owner.
I have a, I have a group of corporatepartnership salespeople.
(34:25):
I want to bring in maybe 10 new corporatesponsors and I want to lock them in as
long as possible for as much money aspossible.
Well, there's only so many brands that canafford that or that can.
you know, underwrite that type of contractand you're boxing out so many different
(34:47):
brands that would love to be marketinginside your building or marketing to your
fans.
And so because of that model, I thinkthere's a host of brands that are really
boxed out.
And so I think that, you know, throughvarious out of home advertising channels
and out of home advertising networks,there's going to be evolving
(35:09):
opportunities.
Even for companies like myself, and Ithink we're embarking on a sort of a pivot
for ourselves to kind of create an adnetwork to allow, you know, these non
endemic brands or non competitivesponsorship sponsor brands to enter the
stadium business, to market to fans forour gaming devices at a fraction of the
(35:34):
investment and term of a traditionalsponsorship.
So I firmly believe that now.
That could come in many other ways aswell.
You know, that could come in incrementalmarketing dollars, whether, you know,
there are TV ads in bathrooms, concessionads, other out of home advertising
channels throughout the stadium,interactive kiosks like ours.
(35:58):
I just think that there's so many otherways that stadiums can monetize their
buildings if they just thought differentlyon how they sell sponsorship, if they just
opened up access to.
a more broad business model.
Or let me posit something else.
What about increased carve outs to smallertype of areas for some of the brands?
(36:21):
So instead of the official sedan, it's theofficial, you know, sporty sedan or the
official.
Yeah, exactly.
Quasi truck, you know, whatever it may be.
Exactly.
You know, I tell my students there arefour types of bottled water.
Right.
And possibly if you carve it out that way,the rights fees cumulatively will be more,
(36:44):
but they could be cheaper as well.
And so, you know, what's the differencebetween Cartesian water and carbonated
water?
Well, there is a difference.
Yep.
And so maybe that's a possibility.
And maybe with children's items too, andthe alternative broadcasting issue of, you
know, the sponge bobification of a SuperBowl can be an option as well.
(37:06):
I agree.
I absolutely agree.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I hope to see it come.
You know, I really do.
I think that it would, you know, it wouldbring a lot of value to, to, to properties
and, and brands.
And I, and I think there's a host of localregional brands that, that really deserve
access to the properties and to the teamsas well.
(37:29):
And, you know, listen, I think loyaltyprogramming is a big miss.
In the pro sports world too.
Like, I mean, you can't get a credit cardor fly on an airplane or, you know, get on
any transit without any type of loyaltyprogramming.
Why isn't that in part of a sports team?
Right.
And why isn't that embedded throughoutyour community?
Like I live in Philadelphia.
(37:51):
It's a major sports city.
You know, why isn't there any campaignwith any bank that, or even with any
particular team that you're earningloyalty points by ordering a sandwich from
here, a mattress from here.
changing your oil from here and then alsobuying a ticket to this game and that
game.
Like it just doesn't make sense to me.
Like that could be, and then like you cansell that sponsorship package to be a part
(38:14):
of that couponing or that loyaltyprogramming.
And at one time there was, there were someattempts I'd say about 20 years ago
because I had one of those cards and itwas disbanded.
I'm not going to mention the team and thecompany, but it was disbanded.
And I think it was because at that timethey didn't,
tell fans what you could do with it.
(38:36):
And they were competing with the airlinescredit cards, which gave a lot more
options as well.
That's my thought.
If anybody out there would want to debateand write me, they can certainly can.
But I think, but it's a very good point.
We're in a different era and people areusing credit cards, you know, much, much
more, especially since COVID, you know,cash is so rare.
(38:58):
So it could very well be an idea to dothat.
You know, there's been things that havebeen ahead of its time, right?
And what's old is new and we can talkabout the QR code.
I mean, that thing tried for 20 yearsbefore it got big.
And so you can give it a go again.
So where do you see the technology goingin the next five years?
You know, we sort of are moving from AR VRdistinctions, as you said.
(39:23):
So where we see, you know, this immersivetechnology going the way you see it.
Particularly, I mean, I don't know if thisbodes well for me per se.
I mean, I can make the argument both ways,but I think personally, I think spatial
computing is extremely fascinating and Iam very, I've been high on mixed reality
(39:44):
headsets for many years.
And as the Apple Vision Pro has finallycome to market and knowing that this is
going to be the worst iteration of thatproduct that's out there and what it's
capable of doing in its current state.
very positive forward look as to what'spossible.
And so I think again, from a propertyperspective or broadcast perspective, it's
(40:08):
going to put a lot of pressure again onownership of creating a better in game
experience or in stadium experience,because what the capabilities are in
spatial computing and mixed reality isreally fascinating.
And so that is a perfect example of what
mixed reality is blending that digital andphysical world together and watching,
(40:33):
there's an app right now on the VisionPro, the PGA Tour app, and being able to
choose any hole on the tournament andexpanding it in AR and spinning it and
then watching the flight path of each holeand then being able to analyze it, it's
just such a cool and creative way towatch.
(40:56):
golf and see the statistics and have anewsfeed and then have broadcast feed all
at the same time.
And by the way, you can just walkthroughout your living room and not
disrupt your maneuverability because thereis the pass -through capability.
And so I believe that technology is goingvery similar to what the iPhone has done
(41:16):
in terms of changing the way we live.
I do think mixed reality is going tochange the way that we interact with the
world when headsets are.
trimmed down to a more utility eyewear,where it's not going to be these sort of
ridiculous snow goggle headsets.
And they look like, you know, the glassesthat you're wearing now.
(41:37):
And, you know, we're going to be able to,you know, pull up our navigation, our map
and find details and things.
And so I personally, this may be more of apersonal perspective, but I just do not
see the future not heading that way.
And so when it comes to broadcast, you hadmentioned,
I think that's the way the future is goingto go.
And so I think as it relates to where ourtype of business and where the in -game
(42:01):
experience needs to be is the, again,properties are going to be really
challenged with, all right, it's no longerthe man cave.
It's now the man cave in spatial computingand the luxuries of home.
Like we really need to amp up what the in-venue experience is because, you know,
it's, it's going to be really cool in fiveyears just to watch five games at one.
in 3D.
(42:23):
Well, would you think of expanding to thatsort of evolving and taking the in
-stadium experience and trying to dosomething by stream or alternate or work
with a team to do some kind of alternatebroadcasting techniques with various games
interspersed at halftime or betweenperiods or between innings and say stick
(42:45):
around on this.
Hey, you can try to be, you know, yourvirtual designated hitter.
Absolutely.
We've played around with that.
You know, you'd mentioned the spongeBobbification, which I love it.
And you know, Nickelodeon does a fantasticjob.
We've toyed around with a couple ofconcepts laying AR over live broadcasts.
So yeah, absolutely.
Do you also think of an idea of,specifying broadcasts for novices, people
(43:10):
that may not be as knowledgeable about thesport and let's say somebody who's not,
born into American football, but.
maybe English soccer or, you know, fromanother country and find football
difficult to understand, which it can be.
so, and maybe, alternate broadcast with,Hey, practice throwing a ball.
(43:33):
Yeah.
Practice.
So another example is like the TaylorSwift phenomenon.
How many new fans did she bring tofootball that had no idea what the heck
was happening on the field?
So I think, you know, when you can,
bring in that level of fan base at thatvolume that has no idea what's happening,
(43:53):
but they just want to get that, you know,15 second clip of her in the, in the, in
the suite, but want to watch the game forthat, but then sort of get intrigued with
the game, but not knowing what a penaltyis, not knowing what a first down is that
that's a very good point and perspectiveto get that educational piece.
And yeah, yeah, there, there was a lot ofopportunity there.
(44:14):
And, before we go, I,
I forgot to ask earlier, how many teams doyou have any affiliation agreements with?
Well, I would say we've had over 60, youknow, over the years.
And so we've named a team and we'veprobably have worked with them at some
point.
And, you know, our active roster is alwaysevolving, you know, as seasons ends and
(44:38):
seasons start up again.
So, yeah, you know, we're really excitedabout, you know, we have some news coming
out next week.
about our, it'll be the first in stadiumadvertising network with our interactive
gaming kiosks.
And so we're going to bring that out tothe market.
And so I think it's, it's really going toexpand what we talked about with allowing
(45:01):
brands to enter a closed off market andgiving properties a way to subsidize
income and opening up and monetizeunderutilized areas of their stadiums and
generate revenue.
for their properties and their teams to tomaximize their their income and and just
open up a new audience of Advertisers aswell as enhance their their fan experience
(45:26):
with our technology now those of us hereor I shouldn't say me but say young people
students who want to break into this areaWhat advice would you give them from the
technical side or the marketing side?
Well, I I think you know my myrecommendation is is
is going the agency route.
(45:47):
Frankly, I think working with sportsmarketing agencies or experiential
marketing agencies, you'll have anopportunity to get a more wide range of
domain expertise, if you will.
So you'll have the opportunity to get yourhands involved in in live event
technology, the marketing.
(46:08):
So look to companies like CAA 160 over 90Wasserman.
I think working on the property side willbe valuable when I mean property, the team
side, but you'll be not siloed to yourroles and responsibilities, but it will be
a very refined to that individualorganization where you work with an
(46:31):
agency, you'll have many different brandsto work with.
You'll be working within many differentevents, many different environments, and
then you get to work with a host ofdifferent vendors that have a different
skill set.
in their technology.
And so, you know, more and more of theseagencies are trying to spin up some
technical stack as well.
(46:51):
And so I think that would be myrecommendation is, you know, take a look
at the agency world to kind of reallylearn and, you know, before you really
dive into the team or property side.
Well, on that note, unfortunately, ourtime has come and we have to come to a
close on behalf of Fordham University, theGabelli School of Business.
(47:13):
and the Sports Business Initiative.
Thanks to James Giglio for an engaging andinformative discussion.
You helped to educate this older non -techguy.
And I thank you so much for anilluminating time, an illuminating
interview.
And thanks to my producer, Victoria Ilano,for her great work.
(47:36):
And thanks to all of you for listening in.
For the Sports Business Podcast atFordham's Gabelli School of Business, I'm
Mark Conrad, or Prof.
C, have a great day.
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