July 31, 2025 • 41 mins
Millions of children and teens participate in some form of organized sports activities. But millions of others do not. Some stay involved throughout their childhood and teen years, while others quit by adolescence. This poses some serious questions.
While the benefits of youth sports have often been repeated enough to be a truism, that general notion often skips some warning signs. Is the present system of organized sport the best way to support youth and teen well-being? Are there too many other stakeholders affecting the youth sport experience, including parents, coaches, schools, media, and the college and Olympic sports movements? Should the legal norms and political atmosphere be changed?
Addressing these questions is today's guest, Dionne Koller, professor of law and director of the Center for Sport and the Law at the University of Baltimore Law School. Her book, More Than Play: How Law, Policy and Politics Shape American Youth Sport, has just been published by the University of California Press.
Dionne is the first guest in a new series spotlighting authors of important new books addressing key issues in sports. Tune in for an informative and timely conversation.
Host and Executive Producer: Mark Conrad Producer: Victoria Ilano Additional Production: Jeffrey Haynes Artwork: Pamela V. White Marketing: Michelle Miller Music: ”MarcusWay/Energetic Pop Punk/Tribe of Noise”
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:07):
Hello and welcome to the
Sports Business Podcastwith Prof C, the podcast that explores
the world of professional, collegiate,amateur, and Olympic sports.
I’m Mark Conrad, or Prof.
C, from Fordham University’sGabelli School of Business,
whereI serve as Professor of Law and Ethics
(00:30):
and the Director of the Sports BusinessInitiative.
Millions of children and teens participate
in some kind of organized sportactivities.
But millions do not.
Some engage throughout their childhoodand teenage years.
But others quitby the time they reach adolescence.
(00:52):
This poses some serious questions.
While the benefits of youth sporthave been repeated often enough
to be a truism, that mantra often skipssome warning signs.
Is the present system of organized sport
the best wayto promote youth and teen well-being?
Are there
too many other stakeholders that affectthe youth sport experience – like parents,
(01:17):
coaches, schools, media, and the collegeand Olympic sport movements.
Should youth sport incorporatemore aspects of unsupervised play
rather than the rulesand regulations of associations?
Should the legal normsand political atmosphere be changed?
These questions will be addressedby today’s guest,
(01:39):
Dionne Koller, professor of lawand director of the Center for Sport
and the Law at the Universityof Baltimore Law School.
Dionne is the author of a new bookexamining youth sport,
titled “More Than Play” –
How Law, Policy and PoliticsShape American Youth Sport,”
(02:00):
and it has been publishedby the University of California Press.
Dionne is a nationally recognizedauthority on sport law, particularly
in the areas of youth, Olympic,Paralympic, and education-based sports.
In 2021, she was appointed
to co-chair the Commissionon the State of U.S.
(02:22):
Olympic and Paralympics,which delivered its final report
to Congress in 2024.
She is a member of the United StatesAnti-Doping
Agency’s Administrative Review Panel.
She has won numerous awards and honorsfor her scholarship and teaching,
and prior to entering law teaching,she practiced law at the firm
(02:44):
of Akin, Gump,Strauss, Hauer & Feld, in Washington, D.C.
Dionne,welcome to the Sports Business Podcast
as our first guestin a series of prominent book authors.
Mark,thank you so much for having me here.
It's a pleasure. It’s a pleasure.
So let’s start with the title of your book– More than Play.
(03:05):
Can you describe the differenceor similarities
between “sport” and “play”?
Well,one of the things that really surprised me
as I undertook the research for this bookis that there is a difference
between “play” and “sport”.
I think we often sort of mix it upas we discuss these things colloquially.
We just assume sport is just kind of a form of play.
(03:28):
And to some extent it is, but what I foundis a very deep literature, a very deep
philosophical literature that talksabout the definitions of these activities.
And they are very different,and the difference is with play,
the person engaging in play reapsall the benefits.
So all the benefits of play– play is a self-directed activity.
(03:50):
When we play, we decide when we start,when we stop, how much we’re
going to do, how little we’re going to do,and how that process will flow.
Whatever benefits come from our play,
the benefits flow to us and us only.
In sport,that is an activity, quite in contrast,
(04:10):
where the benefits flowonly to the individual engaging in sport,
but benefits can flowto a whole host of others.
So when you engage in sport, fansget benefits,
coaches can get benefits,administrators can get benefits.
So there’s a much greater opportunitywith sport
(04:31):
to benefit many othersbesides the person engaging with it.
And with play, the benefitsstart and end with the person.
And inshort, we get to the point of your book.
You explain that the present US systemis, quote, “dysfunctional
at best, broken at worst.” Why is that so?
So that language, that was
(04:52):
an assessmentgiven by the Aspen Institute Project Play.
I found that in my researchand I thought it was really important
to spotlight thatbecause I think it really captured
perfectlywhat the state of US youth sport is.
And so I think the meaning behindthat is dysfunctional at best, broken
(05:13):
at worst means that we have a system
that has not been sort of thoughtabout, conceived of.
It's not the product of public policyin the sense
that anybody in power at the stateor federal level has come together
and had a process and said, gee,what should the goals be for youth sport?
Should we have minimum safety standards?
(05:34):
What do we want kids to be able to do?
What are we using youth sports for?
We've done very little of that.
And so what we have is a policy choiceto let the free market
just sort of operate.And of course, that's important too.
We are a free market society.
We’re a societythat sort of emphasizes that.
But in so many ways, that free market
(05:56):
working with parents and private youthsport providers by and large,
of course we know some sports for kidsare embedded in schools,
but that arrangement,that partnership has been dysfunctional,
if not in many cases brokenbecause we don't have those guardrails.
We don't havethose minimum safety standards.
We don't have anybody making sure, “Hey,have these coaches had a background check?
(06:20):
Is it safe for my child to be aroundthis person?” for instance.
So, I think that's one of the issues.
I think one of the other issuesis it's expensive.
When you let the free market and parentsjust sort of dictate what your youth sport
experience is gonna be, more is more.
And the cost goesup, there's more travel, and that leaves
(06:41):
many more kids on the sidelines.
So I think there's many, many waysin which the lack of sort of planning,
thinking,any structure for what youth sport is,
and any real national conversationabout what we want for youth
sports leaves it to bewhatever the market says it is.
And what we've seen is that that can havea lot of negative consequences.
(07:03):
And we'll get to some of the specificsin a bit, but a general question.
Do you think it has gotten worsein the last 20 years?
Yes, I think it has gotten worse.
It's gotten worse in several ways.
I think what we know historically isthat there used to be more,
for instance, rec leaguesand publicly funded sports
opportunitiesat the state and local level, certainly.
(07:27):
Those have by and large disappeared.
And so even public landsnow are more often
just leased to or given permitsfor private youth sport providers.
And again,that's not to condemn all of that.
That can be really great, butit just makes it much, much more expensive
for participation.
(07:47):
In addition, within the last 20 years,we've seen the rise of something
called youth sport tourism,
where state and local governmentshave realized that youth sport tournaments
can be a really powerful thingto attract people to come to their
area,come to their state and fill hotel rooms
and fill restaurants and generate revenuefor local governments.
(08:09):
So I think a lot of the things that drive what are characterized
as some of the problems
for youth sports have really occurredover the last 20 years.
And it also accentuates that divisionbetween the traditional play
and the organized sport that is really one of the theses of your book.
Exactly, exactly.
(08:30):
And let's go to the law and legal policysince you are a law professor
and discusssome of the legal and governmental
and even societal attitudesthat have resulted in this system.
So could you give us a specific exampleof where you think something may have gone
off the rails in the last quarter centurythat's a particular
(08:53):
yellow light or red flagthat the public should be aware of.
I think probably,I mean, there are a lot of examples,
but I would pick probably youth sport concussions as an issue
and our policy response to that.
So, as I talk about in the book,the usual kind of reflex of state
(09:13):
and local governmentsis stay out of sports at all levels.
Of course, as I break down in the book,and Mark, you well know this,
the government and law is all oversport in many ways, but
we talk about this assumption, well,the government should stay out of sports.
What we had, which was interestingwithin, again, the last 20 or so years,
(09:36):
is the concussion issueat all levels of sport became huge.
We started to better understandthe dangers of sports concussions
and certainly the dangers of youth sportconcussions because children were dying
sometimes from a second hit
after an unrecognized concussionor they were badly, badly injured.
So what we had was a periodwhere all 50 states adopted youth sport
(10:00):
concussion legislation, which says that if a child is suspected of
suffering a concussionduring certain defined sports,
youth sports - it can be high school,it can be private
youth, dependsa little bit, state to state
- the child must be removed from play
and cannot return until cleared
(10:22):
by a suitable medical practitioner.
So one of the things about those statutes,I think, and I've written
about this, Mark, in my scholarship,those statutes can be terrific in terms
of sending a message that we nowtake sports concussions seriously.
And certainly those statutesput in the conversation
around youth sports, hey,we need to be watching out for this.
(10:44):
On the other hand, what I think isthe tragedy is that those statutes,
none of them provide for any kind ofliability, cause of action.
They're not…they'resort of self-executing,
so to speak, in the sense that, you know,if you're a parent
or somebody watching sports and believea child has suffered a concussion,
it relies on you to sort of identifyit and pull the child out.
(11:07):
But there's no repercussionsif that doesn't happen.
And so what public healthresearch has shown is that these statutes
are just not effective at all,but what they have done is created
kind of an impression
or a feeling that some of these gameshave been made safer, right?
There are laws about them.
So isn't this a safer experience?
(11:28):
And I think what public health authoritieshave concluded is, “not really.”
In addition, what we know is thatmost parents aren't neurologists, Mark.
They don't know if their childhas suffered a concussion.
And so whatever these statutes sayabout removing a child from play,
we don't byand large have trained coaches,
and certainly parents,most of them are not trained.
(11:49):
And so kids are continuing
to suffer concussions in playand nothing much is being done about it.
And I poll my students in my undergraduate sports
law classes and askhow many of them have had concussions.
And over the last few years,a surprising number raised their hand
in a variety of sports,whether it's lacrosse,
(12:11):
whether it's hockey,whether it's football.
And I would ask, what were the protocols?
And I said, well, yeah, I had to be takenout and rest for a week and the like.
And some have had more than oneconcussion, which,
I am not a neurologist,but it can't be good.
And you wonder, do you think part of it also is that
(12:32):
sometimesthe sports are more competitive,
the students, the kids are bigger,stronger than they were at one time?
Do you think that may contributeto the problem too?
Well, I mean, certainly I'mnot a public health official,
so I'm not going to speculate on that.
But what we do knowabout what's happening in youth sports
is that we're weedingkids out much earlier.
(12:54):
So rather than playingwith a cross section of kids
who might be all different shapesand sizes because we know kids mature
at all different levels, it's very likelythat kids today, especially as they move
through the ranks of organizedyouth sport, are playing with kids
who are bigger, stronger, fasterbecause we've weeded out the other ones.
We're not waiting to see ifthere are any late bloomers in the bunch.
(13:16):
That's a failing of our youthsports system if you're interested
in finding all the greatest athletesfor the higher levels of sport
because we're determining who's an athleteor not at much younger ages.
But it certainly could havethose public health effects as well.
But I would note, Mark,when you poll your classes, certainly
I do the same thing in my classes,have these discussions,
(13:39):
most of our students, certainlymany of our students, it can vary
a little bit law school to law school, have come from some form of privilege.
They had parentswho could afford youth sports,
and so they were parentswho were probably a little more
able to be sophisticated around, “Wait,what does the law say?
How do I get my kid medical care for this?
(14:00):
Does my child need medical care?”
And so a lot of kids, again,are either left on the sidelines
or if they're participating,they don't have caregivers
that are doctors and able to know,“my kid is hurt.”
And that economic divideyou think is increasing?
Well, I think it increases as youthsports gets more expensive.
(14:23):
You know, it's the sort of as inequality
in society overall is continuing to grow,
youth sport in this way just mirrorswhat's happening in society.
And as the haves continue to have more,they will,
I think logically, you can think they’regoing to spend more on their children.
And that's certainly what I thinkprivate equity investors are betting on
(14:46):
as they start to invest in youth sports.
And that's a fascinatingand potentially troubling development
that you've gotten a stronger businessstakeholder in this.
You’re transferring it from a fun passionto a business model.
Yeah, right.
I mean, youth sports really very muchas a business model and there's so many
(15:08):
kind of adjacent services and productsand apps and all kinds of things.
So lots of stuffhas sprung up around youth sports.
So that one of the things I talk about inmy book is let's go through
who are all the stakeholders?
Who are the various actors in our societywho have a stake
in whether kids take up sportand stick with it?
(15:30):
And so when we discuss youth sportsand say, gosh, this is all for the kids,
this is to benefit kids,it may be true sports participation.
I was an athlete growing up.I put my kids in sports.
I think there can be lots of benefitsto sports.
But when we talk about it asthis is for the kids, what I wanted to do
in my book is say, well, it's actuallyfor a longer list than just the kids.
(15:53):
And let's break down those stakeholders.
Like, if you were to list them, who do you think
are the principal stakeholdersbesides the kids?
Yeah, I mean, you can start at the top,which is, of course, sports sponsors
and anybody investing as a sort of youthsport provider that is making money
on selling a youth sports experienceand selling
(16:13):
things that are sort of collateral toor adjacent to that experience.
You know, you have the hockey programs
and then you have the folksthat sell hockey sticks, right,
to single out a sport that my son playedand that we really loved.
But so there's thatwhole sort of billions
and billions of dollarsjust on providing the experience.
(16:34):
But then you go from thereand you realize, well, sports
medicine providers, for instance, this is something
that was not immediately apparent to meuntil I started doing the research.
As games have gottenmore professionalized,
as kidshave been more encouraged to specialize
in a sport at an early age,that comes with a lot more injuries.
(16:55):
And guess what?
Sports medicineproviders are here to provide the care.
So, and again, neither bad nor good.
I'm glad there are doctors out therethat treat children.
But as we've created a modelthat creates injuries,
and that's the language of the healthcarecommunity, that's not mine.
You know, we have healthcare providersthere to step in.
(17:16):
As the games have been made and continueto be, some dangerous for kids
tackle football, collision sports, ice hockey, and others.
You need to have athletic trainers,certainly.
We don't inmost youth sport experiences,
but there's been a growing needfor athletic trainers
to be there because some of the injuriescan be quite serious.
(17:38):
So that's certainly a stakeholder.
State and local governments,as I said, with youth sport tourism,
this is an economic driver.
This is a stimulus idea.
Let's bring a softball tournamentto our area.
And so state and localgovernments are stakeholders.
Certainly professional leagues,the Olympic and Paralympic movement.
(17:58):
We make elite athletes at a pretty goodrate in this country.
And so I talk about
how all the higher levels of sport- college sports, Olympic, Paralympic,
and the pros rely on a youth sport
model that churns out really talentedkids.
The effect of this is that all the waydown to the high school level, Mark,
(18:19):
and I know you know this,
it's even competitiveto make a high school team now.
And most parents, research shows, aren'tjust putting their kids into youth sports
with the hope of getting a collegescholarship or making a college team.
They're doing it with the hopethat their child
can make a high school team,which is really stunning.
We are speaking with Professor DionneKohler, discussing her new book,
(18:42):
State of Play, How Law, Policy
and Politics Shape American Youth Sport.
So let's move on more to the legal systemand you alluded to this
a few minutes ago,but we can be more specific.
How does the legal systemperpetuate the problems with youth sport?
Well, you're right, I alluded to it.
(19:04):
I think there's several assumptions,and I talk about these assumptions
in the book and kind of unpack themand what they mean for youth sports.
One of the assumptions,
as I mentioned before,is that the government
should not be involved in youthsports, right?
The government should take a hands-offapproach.
So at the state and federal level,we have little
to no regulationof the youth sport experience.
(19:25):
Which when you compare youth sportsto say other products
and servicesthat touch children is quite unusual.
So that's one assumption.
I think the other assumption that we seea lot in case law, and I talk about
this as well, is that if, for instance,we hold a youth sport provider
liable for negligence for a child'sinjuries or a coach
(19:49):
liable for a child's injuries in sports,that will destroy all of youth sports.
And that's not my hyperbole, Mark,that's the words of court cases
which say this could in factdestroy youth sports or youth sports
opportunities will disappear.
What little research we have onthat assumption shows that
(20:09):
they won't disappear.
And that in fact it could encouragesome better youth sport practices.
But I think we havesome faulty assumptions in youth sports
and that really gets in the way of reform.
And on the, let's say the court side,
the common law side, we have the doctrineof assumption of risk.
And that's something that you teach,I teach.
(20:32):
And it's a concept that basically saysthat one risks or injury
from the inherent nature of the sportand precludes a lawsuit
for negligent in simple terms.
Like you really can't suebecause you know, you're voluntarily
playing the sport or your parentsallow you to play the sport.
So you get injured; in most cases,you really don't
(20:53):
have a rightto sue, with some exceptions.
Do you think that that poses
a major problem regarding the system?
I think it can.
One thing about assumption of the risk,it means that the use court
providers don't have a duty.
And so you can't sort of make out aor makes it very difficult
(21:15):
to make out kind of that prima facie casefor negligence, for recovery.
And I think a lot of parentsare surprised when they learn
about assumption of the risk,when there are some catastrophic or
other types of serious injuriesto their child, they bring a lawsuit.
And then the court responds by sayingthis is just part of the game.
So certainly this is basictort doctrine, Mark,
(21:39):
as you and I both know, we teach it, it'sfirst year law school stuff. It's
not significant from that perspective.
What I think is significant,
however, is that this is the same doctrinewe use at professional level,
at the collegiate level,at adult levels of sport.
And so what's interesting to meis that we haven't taken any steps at all
(22:02):
to sort of make adjustments.
The idea isthis is the game, it's very dangerous.
And I've read briefs and casesinvolving catastrophic hockey injuries,
for instance.
And it's the same thing,
which is this is just a dangerous gameand that's too bad.
And so the question I ask with my bookis, well, why can't we make adjustments
(22:24):
to the games, for instance,at the children's level?
Why does the professional standardsof care, professional level,
adult level, tort law standards,why don't we adjust them for children?
Because we make adjustments, Mark, again,as you well know, we make adjustments
(22:45):
in areas of law for children all the time.
And so to me, it is quite strikingthat in this case, we adhere
to these kind of grownup standards,even when kids are playing sports.
You talk about the idea
that, of course, parents had a strong,
represented the legal rights of childrenbecause they're too young
(23:08):
to do it themselves until they reach the legal age of adulthood.
And that has an effect on decisionsregarding sports.
Do you think that that should be changedin some way?
I'm inferring that…do you think parents
always havethe best interests of their children
when they commit to making decisionsregarding participation in sport?
(23:30):
Yeah, so this is such a complex issueand it was really interesting to me
because I lived this, Mark.I had two kids in sports.
And so I sort of saw how my own interestscould easily get wrapped up
in my own goals for my child,wrapped up in what my kids were doing.
So I think the law very rightfully givesparents
(23:51):
the primary power to make decisionsfor their children and deciding
whether their kids will be in youth sportsor how much.
And there's a wide range of decisionsthat get made.
I talk about,you know, redshirting kindergarten, right?
That's all left for parents to decide.
And I think that's good thing that the law
does that and defersto parents in most cases.
(24:13):
But what we also knowis that there are lots of examples
where the law says that there'stoo much of a…of a fear or worry
that parents will not necessarily be ableto make the right decision
for their children or the parentsmight have a conflict of interest.
And so the law needs to step in.
(24:34):
And so, Mark,one of the things I talk about
in the book is,for instance, child labor statutes, right?
Parents back in the old days
would send their young childreninto factories to go to work
because it helped the family'sbottom line.
Parents had a conflict of interestand so the law says in cases where
(24:54):
it could be unsafe, unwise,it could really impact
a child's development,the law needs to set some guardrails.
Same thing with sort of minimum agefor drinking or smoking and accessing
tobacco products.
There are some things where we sayparents don't have the ability to decide
that their children can do these thingsbecause the law or the state
(25:16):
needs to step in and protect kids.
So I think there's room for thatin youth sports.
We don't have any of that in youth sportsright now.
We completely defer to parents.
And what the research shows,as I previously mentioned, first of all,
we know parents aren't necessarily,most of them,
qualified neurologists who can diagnosethings like a sports concussion.
So parentshaving the authority to step in in sports
(25:41):
is useless when they don't knowand can't exercise their authority.
But in addition,the research is crystal clear, Mark.
That, and I certainly again
felt this myself, I don't knowif you did with youth sports,
but parents can become quickly and easilysort of blinded to
what's in their children's best interestand push their kids too hard.
(26:05):
And it's not just extreme examples, it's
rather easy to become sortof caught up in your child's
youth sport experience, push themto keep participating and specializing,
and that can have long-term effects on their bodies and minds.
And so I think there is a rolefor the law to step in and sort of temper
parental rights as we've done in
(26:26):
so many other areasthat touch on children's lives.
So, for example,would you say that a law could be passed
barring tackle footballfor anybody under, say, 14?
I think you could.
I think politically,we know that movements to ban
tackle football have not been successful.
(26:46):
Football of any game
really is something that
in some parts of the countryhas been called almost a religion.
So I don't thinkpolitically you could do it,
but I think the state couldcertainly would have the power to do
it under a parent’sPatria (?) theory, under a sort of
just general health and safety powersto say, that we have enough research
(27:08):
to know that children tackling each otherwith their developing brains
and bodies is not a good ideaand we want to limit that.
And so the states that have triedit have not succeeded.
I think California has some limitson the number of sessions, kind of full
contact sessions, but in general,politicians have just stayed away from it.
(27:28):
And you made that illusion just now,which I was just going to bring up,
that you talked about childrenas de facto laborers under this system.
And under American labor law,
if you're under 14,you cannot legally work.
And those of us who rememberfrom middle school and high school,
if you did work, youhad these restrictions at 14, 15, 16, 17.
(27:52):
You had these working papersto fill out, things like that.
But you don't see that in sports.
Right, right, no, there's none of that.
And what I talk aboutis that children's efforts in youth
sports can quickly startto look like work and the type of work
that we don't acknowledge, the typeof work that has gone on in families.
For instance, the analogy I makeis to women's work in the home.
(28:15):
We used to say that women just didall the cooking and cleaning and childcare
and all that stuffthat makes a household run,
that we knowcan be quantifiable and counted as labor,
but we used to just say sort ofin a dismissive way,
that's not work,that's just a mother's love, right?
I think the same thing can be truewith children.
(28:36):
They can quickly start putting in,and the Aspen Institute has talked
about this, 10, 20 or more hours a week.
And certainly when you talkabout traveling and going to tournaments,
the hours can pile up,and it can quickly take something
that is a recreation or leisure activityand it can look like work.
Well, speaking of youth sport,I do want to relate a personal anecdote.
(29:00):
Most of my colleaguesor many of my colleagues in the sport law
and business areahave played sport on a certain level.
And many have been actually athletesthat have been rather successful.
I must be an exception to thatbecause I was
the kind of kid that hated team sport.
(29:22):
I was the kind of kid that people didn'twant on the softball team.
I was the kid who struck outat the end of a game.
And I remember,you know, I'm 60 some odd years old.
I was 12 and we were losing 12 to 11
and I was the last batter and struck outand it was just crushing.
(29:42):
Crushing. .
I mean, it was thatand I could hear other kids saying things
and you know, what does that do?
I didn't want to do sports. Of course.
I really retreated.
I didn't want to do it.
My parentssaid you gotta do something for your body.
And it took a long, long timeuntil I found out my version of play,
which was running. And running
(30:04):
was just absolutely great,
although I was much older,because I could do it my own pace.
I didn't race against anybody.
I raced against myself.
And I really got to like it.
And I would say to the audience,and people may wonder, but
one of the greatest achievementsin my life
was completing the New York CityMarathon in over five hours.
(30:27):
This is not a great time, folks,as you know, but still,
it was an incredible achievement,but it came myself.
In other words,I didn't rely on the system
because I think the systemmay have hurt my interest.
And I say that because there may bemillions of other people like me.
And I thought about thatin reading the book.
(30:50):
Through the book, I said, yeah,I was that kind of kid that just hated it,
hated gym, couldn'tsleep at night before gym class stuff.
And what do you say, you know, as ascholar in the area, as a parent
to somebody, you know, who is that
kid or is a parent of that kid?
(31:13):
Well, Mark, I'mjust so glad you brought that up.
First of all, congratulationson completing the marathon.
That's not anachievement I will ever, ever
attain.
I think, you know, and it's interestingbecause I was the opposite.
I was a kid who was involvedin the sport of gymnastics,
had some success and really loved itand felt like
(31:33):
the system was a good thing for mein many ways.
But I think your point is the point
that we are not dealing within our policy around youth sports.
There are millions of kidswho, for whatever reason,
their minds, their bodies,they're not born or built
to be the next LeBronJames or Simone Biles or Michael Phelps.
(31:55):
And we have a systemthat is aimed at finding those kids
and elevating those kidsand sort of shedding the rest.
And that's really turning
our back on what the supposed
values of youth sport participation are,which is lifelong health, achieving
goals, understandingand kind of learning self-discipline,
(32:20):
working toward these goals.
You didn't run a marathon overnight,you had to prepare.
And there were some sort of personality
characteristicsthat get kind of honed in that process.
And so that's what we want youth sportsto be for, but we're delivering
youth sports with a model that screens outthe Mark Conrads of the world.
That's a mistake from a public healthperspective.
(32:42):
It's a mistake as well because, Mark,you know what?
Who knows?
Maybe you could have been the nextMichael Phelps or LeBron James,
but you sort of internalizeda message early on, sports aren't for me.
In addition, we don't providebecause we rely so heavily
on the private sector, which chaseswhat's already popular as opposed
(33:04):
to seeing sort of a range of sportsfor a range of bodies
and minds and personalities.
Mark, you might’vebeen the next great rock climber
or skateboarderor any number of things that we know
can be sport experiences, but we offer kind of the traditional menu.
When a kid doesn't get good at a sport
(33:24):
on the traditional menu quicklyand early on,
they internalize the negative messagesand most often they walk away.
So I'm delighted to hearthat you connected,
reconnected with sportas an older person.
But most of the time kids don't,we just turn them off.
And so I think that's a mistake.
And let's focus on the present
(33:46):
system and girls, girls and young women.
Do you think that the system makes itparticularly difficult for girls
to continue participationwhen they become teens? It really does.
I mean, there'sa lot of research on this and
it's multifactorial.
We know that most kids who are involvedin youth sports quit by the age of 13.
(34:08):
Lots of reasons why.
Primary reasons though are burnout,injuries because of the epidemic,
what the medical community callsthe epidemic of overuse injuries.
But what I talk about in the book,what’s particularly, I think, troubling
about girls’ participationis we get girls involved in youth sports.
Push them hard.
(34:28):
We have lots and lots, millionsof girls, Mark, who are good at sports.
And then they hit a ceilingbecause the truth is Title IX, it's
more than 50 years old atthis point, has never been fully enforced.
High schools and colleges and universitiesstill are not giving girls
the number of opportunitiesthat they should have under the law.
(34:50):
And so all these girlsthat get good at youth
sports,if they're looking for a high school
or a college participation opportunity,very often they're not able to find it.
And so we know that there aresome growing professional women's
sports leagues,
but because we haven't fully enforcedour gender equity
laws around sports participationopportunities, girls
(35:13):
that are good as children hit a ceilingand there's nowhere for them to go.
And let's talk about those
who have physicalor developmental disabilities.
That is somethingthat is not discussed a lot.
And what about
their opportunities for sportand how important it could be for them?
Is there a system in place that deals
(35:35):
with kids in those categories?
Or do we have to create onethat's fair and equitable?
Well, I think it depends on what systemyou're looking at.
Certainly we have the Paralympic movement- that's worldwide - and our United
States Olympic and Paralympic Committeeand governing bodies for Paralympic sport
(35:56):
are looking to develop grassrootssports opportunities
to get childreninto the Paralympic pipeline.
We're a very successful countryin the Paralympics.
We have some tremendously successfulindividual para athletes
and so to some extentthat pipeline is doing okay.
But if you look at the millionsof children with various types
(36:19):
of disabilities who could benefitfrom sports, we're not doing okay at all.
So in high schoolsports, the Rehabilitation Act,
as you know, Mark, would applyand would require schools to provide
equitable opportunities for childrenwith disabilities to participate.
High schools are doing what they can.
They're doing the bestthey can with tight budgets.
(36:40):
But we know children
with disabilities again at the high schoollevel in high school sports
don't get the number of opportunitiesthat they should.
You know again,we're always we're seeing growth,
but not as much givenhow long that law has been on the books.
Then you look at the category of privateyouth sports, and I think this here is
(37:02):
where there is such an opportunityfor growth, we just don't have a lot.
And so parentswith children with disabilities
who need various types of adaptiveor para sports experiences
have to go drivelong distances, look far and wide.
Sometimes there's specialized equipmentthat can be very expensive
(37:24):
and that is a barrier.
So we absolutely need to do more.
There are millions of childrenwith disabilities who would benefit
tremendously from sports.
We have research that showsthis would be a fantastic thing
and we just aren't doing enoughat any level really.
And you conclude the bookby saying that the hands-off approach
(37:45):
to Americanyouth sport serves the power structure.
But what solutions would you proposeor think about for the future?
Well, what I really hope comesfrom this book, Mark, I didn't propose
a solution in the sensethat I didn't say in the book,
there is one right way to do youth sportsand here's what that way is.
(38:07):
What I want the book to dois to spur policy conversations.
We know that
sports look different, for instance,in the Deep South than say New England.
There are different sports
that are popular in different areas,different levels of participation,
different types of facilities,and et cetera.
So what I wantthe book to do is for policymakers,
(38:28):
first and foremost, to understand thatthere's a conversation to be had here.
We often sort of immediately say,
“Oh no, we can't quote unquoteregulate youth sports.
We're not like China, right?
We're not gonna sort of pluck kidsfrom their families and send them to youth
sport training centers like communist countries do.
But there's so muchpolicy space to have conversations
(38:51):
about common sense reform, minimumsafety standards.
What are our goals?
Can we do more public funding for sports?
There are conversations to behad at the state and national level,
and I hope that we start having them.
Secondarily, I think a lot of parentsjust assume this is the way it has to be.
And so I can't say anything.
(39:12):
I can't do anything.
I think parents need to be empowered.
Again, talk to your legislators,talk to your youth sport providers,
realizethat it doesn't have to be this way.
And do you think in a polarizedpolitical environment right now,
there is that possibility that there couldbe some kind of bipartisan consensus,
at least on a national level,to have some kind of meaningful reform?
(39:35):
Well, there is so much political interest
in youth sports from the perspective,and I talk about this in the book,
from the perspectiveof promoting it as a wholesome activity.
And so I want to believe thatwhere there is such strong
bipartisan supportfor the idea of youth sports
participation,that we could find pathways for.
(39:56):
And in fact, in the commission report,I co-chaired the Commission
on the State of U.S.
Olympics and Paralympics,one of our recommendations was that there
should be kind of national conversationsabout say minimum safety standards,
just some sort of basic minimum guardrails for youth sports.
And I would hope that there could besome bipartisan consensus around that.
(40:18):
And on that note, we do have to cometo an end of our conversation.
On behalf of Fordham University,the Gabelli School of Business,
and the Sports Business Initiative,
I want to extend mythanks to Professor Dionne Koller
of the University of Baltimore Law Schooland the author of More Than Play,
(40:39):
How Law, Policy and PoliticsShape American Youth Sport,
published by the University of CaliforniaPress. The book,
which I strongly recommend, examinesan underrated and under-reported issue.
It is definitely eye-opening.
I also want to acknowledge my producer,Victoria Ilano,
(40:59):
for her great workin preparing and editing this episode.
And manythanks to all of you for listening in.
For the Sports Business Podcastat Fordham’s
Gabelli School of Business,I’m Mark Conrad, or Prof.
C, have a great day.
Hello and welcome to the
Sports Business Podcastwith Prof C, the podcast that explores
the world of professional, collegiate,amateur, and Olympic sports.
I’m Mark Conrad, or Prof.
C, from Fordham University’sGabelli School of Business,
whereI serve as Professor of Law and Ethics
(00:30):
and the Director of the Sports BusinessInitiative.
Millions of children and teens participate
in some kind of organized sportactivities.
But millions do not.
Some engage throughout their childhoodand teenage years.
But others quitby the time they reach adolescence.
(00:52):
This poses some serious questions.
While the benefits of youth sporthave been repeated often enough
to be a truism, that mantra often skipssome warning signs.
Is the present system of organized sport
the best wayto promote youth and teen well-being?
Are there
too many other stakeholders that affectthe youth sport experience – like parents,
(01:17):
coaches, schools, media, and the collegeand Olympic sport movements.
Should youth sport incorporatemore aspects of unsupervised play
rather than the rulesand regulations of associations?
Should the legal normsand political atmosphere be changed?
These questions will be addressedby today’s guest,
(01:39):
Dionne Koller, professor of lawand director of the Center for Sport
and the Law at the Universityof Baltimore Law School.
Dionne is the author of a new bookexamining youth sport,
titled “More Than Play” –
How Law, Policy and PoliticsShape American Youth Sport,”
(02:00):
and it has been publishedby the University of California Press.
Dionne is a nationally recognizedauthority on sport law, particularly
in the areas of youth, Olympic,Paralympic, and education-based sports.
In 2021, she was appointed
to co-chair the Commissionon the State of U.S.
(02:22):
Olympic and Paralympics,which delivered its final report
to Congress in 2024.
She is a member of the United StatesAnti-Doping
Agency’s Administrative Review Panel.
She has won numerous awards and honorsfor her scholarship and teaching,
and prior to entering law teaching,she practiced law at the firm
(02:44):
of Akin, Gump,Strauss, Hauer & Feld, in Washington, D.C.
Dionne,welcome to the Sports Business Podcast
as our first guestin a series of prominent book authors.
Mark,thank you so much for having me here.
It's a pleasure. It’s a pleasure.
So let’s start with the title of your book– More than Play.
(03:05):
Can you describe the differenceor similarities
between “sport” and “play”?
Well,one of the things that really surprised me
as I undertook the research for this bookis that there is a difference
between “play” and “sport”.
I think we often sort of mix it upas we discuss these things colloquially.
We just assume sport is just kind of a form of play.
(03:28):
And to some extent it is, but what I foundis a very deep literature, a very deep
philosophical literature that talksabout the definitions of these activities.
And they are very different,and the difference is with play,
the person engaging in play reapsall the benefits.
So all the benefits of play– play is a self-directed activity.
(03:50):
When we play, we decide when we start,when we stop, how much we’re
going to do, how little we’re going to do,and how that process will flow.
Whatever benefits come from our play,
the benefits flow to us and us only.
In sport,that is an activity, quite in contrast,
(04:10):
where the benefits flowonly to the individual engaging in sport,
but benefits can flowto a whole host of others.
So when you engage in sport, fansget benefits,
coaches can get benefits,administrators can get benefits.
So there’s a much greater opportunitywith sport
(04:31):
to benefit many othersbesides the person engaging with it.
And with play, the benefitsstart and end with the person.
And inshort, we get to the point of your book.
You explain that the present US systemis, quote, “dysfunctional
at best, broken at worst.” Why is that so?
So that language, that was
(04:52):
an assessmentgiven by the Aspen Institute Project Play.
I found that in my researchand I thought it was really important
to spotlight thatbecause I think it really captured
perfectlywhat the state of US youth sport is.
And so I think the meaning behindthat is dysfunctional at best, broken
(05:13):
at worst means that we have a system
that has not been sort of thoughtabout, conceived of.
It's not the product of public policyin the sense
that anybody in power at the stateor federal level has come together
and had a process and said, gee,what should the goals be for youth sport?
Should we have minimum safety standards?
(05:34):
What do we want kids to be able to do?
What are we using youth sports for?
We've done very little of that.
And so what we have is a policy choiceto let the free market
just sort of operate.And of course, that's important too.
We are a free market society.
We’re a societythat sort of emphasizes that.
But in so many ways, that free market
(05:56):
working with parents and private youthsport providers by and large,
of course we know some sports for kidsare embedded in schools,
but that arrangement,that partnership has been dysfunctional,
if not in many cases brokenbecause we don't have those guardrails.
We don't havethose minimum safety standards.
We don't have anybody making sure, “Hey,have these coaches had a background check?
(06:20):
Is it safe for my child to be aroundthis person?” for instance.
So, I think that's one of the issues.
I think one of the other issuesis it's expensive.
When you let the free market and parentsjust sort of dictate what your youth sport
experience is gonna be, more is more.
And the cost goesup, there's more travel, and that leaves
(06:41):
many more kids on the sidelines.
So I think there's many, many waysin which the lack of sort of planning,
thinking,any structure for what youth sport is,
and any real national conversationabout what we want for youth
sports leaves it to bewhatever the market says it is.
And what we've seen is that that can havea lot of negative consequences.
(07:03):
And we'll get to some of the specificsin a bit, but a general question.
Do you think it has gotten worsein the last 20 years?
Yes, I think it has gotten worse.
It's gotten worse in several ways.
I think what we know historically isthat there used to be more,
for instance, rec leaguesand publicly funded sports
opportunitiesat the state and local level, certainly.
(07:27):
Those have by and large disappeared.
And so even public landsnow are more often
just leased to or given permitsfor private youth sport providers.
And again,that's not to condemn all of that.
That can be really great, butit just makes it much, much more expensive
for participation.
(07:47):
In addition, within the last 20 years,we've seen the rise of something
called youth sport tourism,
where state and local governmentshave realized that youth sport tournaments
can be a really powerful thingto attract people to come to their
area,come to their state and fill hotel rooms
and fill restaurants and generate revenuefor local governments.
(08:09):
So I think a lot of the things that drive what are characterized
as some of the problems
for youth sports have really occurredover the last 20 years.
And it also accentuates that divisionbetween the traditional play
and the organized sport that is really one of the theses of your book.
Exactly, exactly.
(08:30):
And let's go to the law and legal policysince you are a law professor
and discusssome of the legal and governmental
and even societal attitudesthat have resulted in this system.
So could you give us a specific exampleof where you think something may have gone
off the rails in the last quarter centurythat's a particular
(08:53):
yellow light or red flagthat the public should be aware of.
I think probably,I mean, there are a lot of examples,
but I would pick probably youth sport concussions as an issue
and our policy response to that.
So, as I talk about in the book,the usual kind of reflex of state
(09:13):
and local governmentsis stay out of sports at all levels.
Of course, as I break down in the book,and Mark, you well know this,
the government and law is all oversport in many ways, but
we talk about this assumption, well,the government should stay out of sports.
What we had, which was interestingwithin, again, the last 20 or so years,
(09:36):
is the concussion issueat all levels of sport became huge.
We started to better understandthe dangers of sports concussions
and certainly the dangers of youth sportconcussions because children were dying
sometimes from a second hit
after an unrecognized concussionor they were badly, badly injured.
So what we had was a periodwhere all 50 states adopted youth sport
(10:00):
concussion legislation, which says that if a child is suspected of
suffering a concussionduring certain defined sports,
youth sports - it can be high school,it can be private
youth, dependsa little bit, state to state
- the child must be removed from play
and cannot return until cleared
(10:22):
by a suitable medical practitioner.
So one of the things about those statutes,I think, and I've written
about this, Mark, in my scholarship,those statutes can be terrific in terms
of sending a message that we nowtake sports concussions seriously.
And certainly those statutesput in the conversation
around youth sports, hey,we need to be watching out for this.
(10:44):
On the other hand, what I think isthe tragedy is that those statutes,
none of them provide for any kind ofliability, cause of action.
They're not…they'resort of self-executing,
so to speak, in the sense that, you know,if you're a parent
or somebody watching sports and believea child has suffered a concussion,
it relies on you to sort of identifyit and pull the child out.
(11:07):
But there's no repercussionsif that doesn't happen.
And so what public healthresearch has shown is that these statutes
are just not effective at all,but what they have done is created
kind of an impression
or a feeling that some of these gameshave been made safer, right?
There are laws about them.
So isn't this a safer experience?
(11:28):
And I think what public health authoritieshave concluded is, “not really.”
In addition, what we know is thatmost parents aren't neurologists, Mark.
They don't know if their childhas suffered a concussion.
And so whatever these statutes sayabout removing a child from play,
we don't byand large have trained coaches,
and certainly parents,most of them are not trained.
(11:49):
And so kids are continuing
to suffer concussions in playand nothing much is being done about it.
And I poll my students in my undergraduate sports
law classes and askhow many of them have had concussions.
And over the last few years,a surprising number raised their hand
in a variety of sports,whether it's lacrosse,
(12:11):
whether it's hockey,whether it's football.
And I would ask, what were the protocols?
And I said, well, yeah, I had to be takenout and rest for a week and the like.
And some have had more than oneconcussion, which,
I am not a neurologist,but it can't be good.
And you wonder, do you think part of it also is that
(12:32):
sometimesthe sports are more competitive,
the students, the kids are bigger,stronger than they were at one time?
Do you think that may contributeto the problem too?
Well, I mean, certainly I'mnot a public health official,
so I'm not going to speculate on that.
But what we do knowabout what's happening in youth sports
is that we're weedingkids out much earlier.
(12:54):
So rather than playingwith a cross section of kids
who might be all different shapesand sizes because we know kids mature
at all different levels, it's very likelythat kids today, especially as they move
through the ranks of organizedyouth sport, are playing with kids
who are bigger, stronger, fasterbecause we've weeded out the other ones.
We're not waiting to see ifthere are any late bloomers in the bunch.
(13:16):
That's a failing of our youthsports system if you're interested
in finding all the greatest athletesfor the higher levels of sport
because we're determining who's an athleteor not at much younger ages.
But it certainly could havethose public health effects as well.
But I would note, Mark,when you poll your classes, certainly
I do the same thing in my classes,have these discussions,
(13:39):
most of our students, certainlymany of our students, it can vary
a little bit law school to law school, have come from some form of privilege.
They had parentswho could afford youth sports,
and so they were parentswho were probably a little more
able to be sophisticated around, “Wait,what does the law say?
How do I get my kid medical care for this?
(14:00):
Does my child need medical care?”
And so a lot of kids, again,are either left on the sidelines
or if they're participating,they don't have caregivers
that are doctors and able to know,“my kid is hurt.”
And that economic divideyou think is increasing?
Well, I think it increases as youthsports gets more expensive.
(14:23):
You know, it's the sort of as inequality
in society overall is continuing to grow,
youth sport in this way just mirrorswhat's happening in society.
And as the haves continue to have more,they will,
I think logically, you can think they’regoing to spend more on their children.
And that's certainly what I thinkprivate equity investors are betting on
(14:46):
as they start to invest in youth sports.
And that's a fascinatingand potentially troubling development
that you've gotten a stronger businessstakeholder in this.
You’re transferring it from a fun passionto a business model.
Yeah, right.
I mean, youth sports really very muchas a business model and there's so many
(15:08):
kind of adjacent services and productsand apps and all kinds of things.
So lots of stuffhas sprung up around youth sports.
So that one of the things I talk about inmy book is let's go through
who are all the stakeholders?
Who are the various actors in our societywho have a stake
in whether kids take up sportand stick with it?
(15:30):
And so when we discuss youth sportsand say, gosh, this is all for the kids,
this is to benefit kids,it may be true sports participation.
I was an athlete growing up.I put my kids in sports.
I think there can be lots of benefitsto sports.
But when we talk about it asthis is for the kids, what I wanted to do
in my book is say, well, it's actuallyfor a longer list than just the kids.
(15:53):
And let's break down those stakeholders.
Like, if you were to list them, who do you think
are the principal stakeholdersbesides the kids?
Yeah, I mean, you can start at the top,which is, of course, sports sponsors
and anybody investing as a sort of youthsport provider that is making money
on selling a youth sports experienceand selling
(16:13):
things that are sort of collateral toor adjacent to that experience.
You know, you have the hockey programs
and then you have the folksthat sell hockey sticks, right,
to single out a sport that my son playedand that we really loved.
But so there's thatwhole sort of billions
and billions of dollarsjust on providing the experience.
(16:34):
But then you go from thereand you realize, well, sports
medicine providers, for instance, this is something
that was not immediately apparent to meuntil I started doing the research.
As games have gottenmore professionalized,
as kidshave been more encouraged to specialize
in a sport at an early age,that comes with a lot more injuries.
(16:55):
And guess what?
Sports medicineproviders are here to provide the care.
So, and again, neither bad nor good.
I'm glad there are doctors out therethat treat children.
But as we've created a modelthat creates injuries,
and that's the language of the healthcarecommunity, that's not mine.
You know, we have healthcare providersthere to step in.
(17:16):
As the games have been made and continueto be, some dangerous for kids
tackle football, collision sports, ice hockey, and others.
You need to have athletic trainers,certainly.
We don't inmost youth sport experiences,
but there's been a growing needfor athletic trainers
to be there because some of the injuriescan be quite serious.
(17:38):
So that's certainly a stakeholder.
State and local governments,as I said, with youth sport tourism,
this is an economic driver.
This is a stimulus idea.
Let's bring a softball tournamentto our area.
And so state and localgovernments are stakeholders.
Certainly professional leagues,the Olympic and Paralympic movement.
(17:58):
We make elite athletes at a pretty goodrate in this country.
And so I talk about
how all the higher levels of sport- college sports, Olympic, Paralympic,
and the pros rely on a youth sport
model that churns out really talentedkids.
The effect of this is that all the waydown to the high school level, Mark,
(18:19):
and I know you know this,
it's even competitiveto make a high school team now.
And most parents, research shows, aren'tjust putting their kids into youth sports
with the hope of getting a collegescholarship or making a college team.
They're doing it with the hopethat their child
can make a high school team,which is really stunning.
We are speaking with Professor DionneKohler, discussing her new book,
(18:42):
State of Play, How Law, Policy
and Politics Shape American Youth Sport.
So let's move on more to the legal systemand you alluded to this
a few minutes ago,but we can be more specific.
How does the legal systemperpetuate the problems with youth sport?
Well, you're right, I alluded to it.
(19:04):
I think there's several assumptions,and I talk about these assumptions
in the book and kind of unpack themand what they mean for youth sports.
One of the assumptions,
as I mentioned before,is that the government
should not be involved in youthsports, right?
The government should take a hands-offapproach.
So at the state and federal level,we have little
to no regulationof the youth sport experience.
(19:25):
Which when you compare youth sportsto say other products
and servicesthat touch children is quite unusual.
So that's one assumption.
I think the other assumption that we seea lot in case law, and I talk about
this as well, is that if, for instance,we hold a youth sport provider
liable for negligence for a child'sinjuries or a coach
(19:49):
liable for a child's injuries in sports,that will destroy all of youth sports.
And that's not my hyperbole, Mark,that's the words of court cases
which say this could in factdestroy youth sports or youth sports
opportunities will disappear.
What little research we have onthat assumption shows that
(20:09):
they won't disappear.
And that in fact it could encouragesome better youth sport practices.
But I think we havesome faulty assumptions in youth sports
and that really gets in the way of reform.
And on the, let's say the court side,
the common law side, we have the doctrineof assumption of risk.
And that's something that you teach,I teach.
(20:32):
And it's a concept that basically saysthat one risks or injury
from the inherent nature of the sportand precludes a lawsuit
for negligent in simple terms.
Like you really can't suebecause you know, you're voluntarily
playing the sport or your parentsallow you to play the sport.
So you get injured; in most cases,you really don't
(20:53):
have a rightto sue, with some exceptions.
Do you think that that poses
a major problem regarding the system?
I think it can.
One thing about assumption of the risk,it means that the use court
providers don't have a duty.
And so you can't sort of make out aor makes it very difficult
(21:15):
to make out kind of that prima facie casefor negligence, for recovery.
And I think a lot of parentsare surprised when they learn
about assumption of the risk,when there are some catastrophic or
other types of serious injuriesto their child, they bring a lawsuit.
And then the court responds by sayingthis is just part of the game.
So certainly this is basictort doctrine, Mark,
(21:39):
as you and I both know, we teach it, it'sfirst year law school stuff. It's
not significant from that perspective.
What I think is significant,
however, is that this is the same doctrinewe use at professional level,
at the collegiate level,at adult levels of sport.
And so what's interesting to meis that we haven't taken any steps at all
(22:02):
to sort of make adjustments.
The idea isthis is the game, it's very dangerous.
And I've read briefs and casesinvolving catastrophic hockey injuries,
for instance.
And it's the same thing,
which is this is just a dangerous gameand that's too bad.
And so the question I ask with my bookis, well, why can't we make adjustments
(22:24):
to the games, for instance,at the children's level?
Why does the professional standardsof care, professional level,
adult level, tort law standards,why don't we adjust them for children?
Because we make adjustments, Mark, again,as you well know, we make adjustments
(22:45):
in areas of law for children all the time.
And so to me, it is quite strikingthat in this case, we adhere
to these kind of grownup standards,even when kids are playing sports.
You talk about the idea
that, of course, parents had a strong,
represented the legal rights of childrenbecause they're too young
(23:08):
to do it themselves until they reach the legal age of adulthood.
And that has an effect on decisionsregarding sports.
Do you think that that should be changedin some way?
I'm inferring that…do you think parents
always havethe best interests of their children
when they commit to making decisionsregarding participation in sport?
(23:30):
Yeah, so this is such a complex issueand it was really interesting to me
because I lived this, Mark.I had two kids in sports.
And so I sort of saw how my own interestscould easily get wrapped up
in my own goals for my child,wrapped up in what my kids were doing.
So I think the law very rightfully givesparents
(23:51):
the primary power to make decisionsfor their children and deciding
whether their kids will be in youth sportsor how much.
And there's a wide range of decisionsthat get made.
I talk about,you know, redshirting kindergarten, right?
That's all left for parents to decide.
And I think that's good thing that the law
does that and defersto parents in most cases.
(24:13):
But what we also knowis that there are lots of examples
where the law says that there'stoo much of a…of a fear or worry
that parents will not necessarily be ableto make the right decision
for their children or the parentsmight have a conflict of interest.
And so the law needs to step in.
(24:34):
And so, Mark,one of the things I talk about
in the book is,for instance, child labor statutes, right?
Parents back in the old days
would send their young childreninto factories to go to work
because it helped the family'sbottom line.
Parents had a conflict of interestand so the law says in cases where
(24:54):
it could be unsafe, unwise,it could really impact
a child's development,the law needs to set some guardrails.
Same thing with sort of minimum agefor drinking or smoking and accessing
tobacco products.
There are some things where we sayparents don't have the ability to decide
that their children can do these thingsbecause the law or the state
(25:16):
needs to step in and protect kids.
So I think there's room for thatin youth sports.
We don't have any of that in youth sportsright now.
We completely defer to parents.
And what the research shows,as I previously mentioned, first of all,
we know parents aren't necessarily,most of them,
qualified neurologists who can diagnosethings like a sports concussion.
So parentshaving the authority to step in in sports
(25:41):
is useless when they don't knowand can't exercise their authority.
But in addition,the research is crystal clear, Mark.
That, and I certainly again
felt this myself, I don't knowif you did with youth sports,
but parents can become quickly and easilysort of blinded to
what's in their children's best interestand push their kids too hard.
(26:05):
And it's not just extreme examples, it's
rather easy to become sortof caught up in your child's
youth sport experience, push themto keep participating and specializing,
and that can have long-term effects on their bodies and minds.
And so I think there is a rolefor the law to step in and sort of temper
parental rights as we've done in
(26:26):
so many other areasthat touch on children's lives.
So, for example,would you say that a law could be passed
barring tackle footballfor anybody under, say, 14?
I think you could.
I think politically,we know that movements to ban
tackle football have not been successful.
(26:46):
Football of any game
really is something that
in some parts of the countryhas been called almost a religion.
So I don't thinkpolitically you could do it,
but I think the state couldcertainly would have the power to do
it under a parent’sPatria (?) theory, under a sort of
just general health and safety powersto say, that we have enough research
(27:08):
to know that children tackling each otherwith their developing brains
and bodies is not a good ideaand we want to limit that.
And so the states that have triedit have not succeeded.
I think California has some limitson the number of sessions, kind of full
contact sessions, but in general,politicians have just stayed away from it.
(27:28):
And you made that illusion just now,which I was just going to bring up,
that you talked about childrenas de facto laborers under this system.
And under American labor law,
if you're under 14,you cannot legally work.
And those of us who rememberfrom middle school and high school,
if you did work, youhad these restrictions at 14, 15, 16, 17.
(27:52):
You had these working papersto fill out, things like that.
But you don't see that in sports.
Right, right, no, there's none of that.
And what I talk aboutis that children's efforts in youth
sports can quickly startto look like work and the type of work
that we don't acknowledge, the typeof work that has gone on in families.
For instance, the analogy I makeis to women's work in the home.
(28:15):
We used to say that women just didall the cooking and cleaning and childcare
and all that stuffthat makes a household run,
that we knowcan be quantifiable and counted as labor,
but we used to just say sort ofin a dismissive way,
that's not work,that's just a mother's love, right?
I think the same thing can be truewith children.
(28:36):
They can quickly start putting in,and the Aspen Institute has talked
about this, 10, 20 or more hours a week.
And certainly when you talkabout traveling and going to tournaments,
the hours can pile up,and it can quickly take something
that is a recreation or leisure activityand it can look like work.
Well, speaking of youth sport,I do want to relate a personal anecdote.
(29:00):
Most of my colleaguesor many of my colleagues in the sport law
and business areahave played sport on a certain level.
And many have been actually athletesthat have been rather successful.
I must be an exception to thatbecause I was
the kind of kid that hated team sport.
(29:22):
I was the kind of kid that people didn'twant on the softball team.
I was the kid who struck outat the end of a game.
And I remember,you know, I'm 60 some odd years old.
I was 12 and we were losing 12 to 11
and I was the last batter and struck outand it was just crushing.
(29:42):
Crushing. .
I mean, it was thatand I could hear other kids saying things
and you know, what does that do?
I didn't want to do sports. Of course.
I really retreated.
I didn't want to do it.
My parentssaid you gotta do something for your body.
And it took a long, long timeuntil I found out my version of play,
which was running. And running
(30:04):
was just absolutely great,
although I was much older,because I could do it my own pace.
I didn't race against anybody.
I raced against myself.
And I really got to like it.
And I would say to the audience,and people may wonder, but
one of the greatest achievementsin my life
was completing the New York CityMarathon in over five hours.
(30:27):
This is not a great time, folks,as you know, but still,
it was an incredible achievement,but it came myself.
In other words,I didn't rely on the system
because I think the systemmay have hurt my interest.
And I say that because there may bemillions of other people like me.
And I thought about thatin reading the book.
(30:50):
Through the book, I said, yeah,I was that kind of kid that just hated it,
hated gym, couldn'tsleep at night before gym class stuff.
And what do you say, you know, as ascholar in the area, as a parent
to somebody, you know, who is that
kid or is a parent of that kid?
(31:13):
Well, Mark, I'mjust so glad you brought that up.
First of all, congratulationson completing the marathon.
That's not anachievement I will ever, ever
attain.
I think, you know, and it's interestingbecause I was the opposite.
I was a kid who was involvedin the sport of gymnastics,
had some success and really loved itand felt like
(31:33):
the system was a good thing for mein many ways.
But I think your point is the point
that we are not dealing within our policy around youth sports.
There are millions of kidswho, for whatever reason,
their minds, their bodies,they're not born or built
to be the next LeBronJames or Simone Biles or Michael Phelps.
(31:55):
And we have a systemthat is aimed at finding those kids
and elevating those kidsand sort of shedding the rest.
And that's really turning
our back on what the supposed
values of youth sport participation are,which is lifelong health, achieving
goals, understandingand kind of learning self-discipline,
(32:20):
working toward these goals.
You didn't run a marathon overnight,you had to prepare.
And there were some sort of personality
characteristicsthat get kind of honed in that process.
And so that's what we want youth sportsto be for, but we're delivering
youth sports with a model that screens outthe Mark Conrads of the world.
That's a mistake from a public healthperspective.
(32:42):
It's a mistake as well because, Mark,you know what?
Who knows?
Maybe you could have been the nextMichael Phelps or LeBron James,
but you sort of internalizeda message early on, sports aren't for me.
In addition, we don't providebecause we rely so heavily
on the private sector, which chaseswhat's already popular as opposed
(33:04):
to seeing sort of a range of sportsfor a range of bodies
and minds and personalities.
Mark, you might’vebeen the next great rock climber
or skateboarderor any number of things that we know
can be sport experiences, but we offer kind of the traditional menu.
When a kid doesn't get good at a sport
(33:24):
on the traditional menu quicklyand early on,
they internalize the negative messagesand most often they walk away.
So I'm delighted to hearthat you connected,
reconnected with sportas an older person.
But most of the time kids don't,we just turn them off.
And so I think that's a mistake.
And let's focus on the present
(33:46):
system and girls, girls and young women.
Do you think that the system makes itparticularly difficult for girls
to continue participationwhen they become teens? It really does.
I mean, there'sa lot of research on this and
it's multifactorial.
We know that most kids who are involvedin youth sports quit by the age of 13.
(34:08):
Lots of reasons why.
Primary reasons though are burnout,injuries because of the epidemic,
what the medical community callsthe epidemic of overuse injuries.
But what I talk about in the book,what’s particularly, I think, troubling
about girls’ participationis we get girls involved in youth sports.
Push them hard.
(34:28):
We have lots and lots, millionsof girls, Mark, who are good at sports.
And then they hit a ceilingbecause the truth is Title IX, it's
more than 50 years old atthis point, has never been fully enforced.
High schools and colleges and universitiesstill are not giving girls
the number of opportunitiesthat they should have under the law.
(34:50):
And so all these girlsthat get good at youth
sports,if they're looking for a high school
or a college participation opportunity,very often they're not able to find it.
And so we know that there aresome growing professional women's
sports leagues,
but because we haven't fully enforcedour gender equity
laws around sports participationopportunities, girls
(35:13):
that are good as children hit a ceilingand there's nowhere for them to go.
And let's talk about those
who have physicalor developmental disabilities.
That is somethingthat is not discussed a lot.
And what about
their opportunities for sportand how important it could be for them?
Is there a system in place that deals
(35:35):
with kids in those categories?
Or do we have to create onethat's fair and equitable?
Well, I think it depends on what systemyou're looking at.
Certainly we have the Paralympic movement- that's worldwide - and our United
States Olympic and Paralympic Committeeand governing bodies for Paralympic sport
(35:56):
are looking to develop grassrootssports opportunities
to get childreninto the Paralympic pipeline.
We're a very successful countryin the Paralympics.
We have some tremendously successfulindividual para athletes
and so to some extentthat pipeline is doing okay.
But if you look at the millionsof children with various types
(36:19):
of disabilities who could benefitfrom sports, we're not doing okay at all.
So in high schoolsports, the Rehabilitation Act,
as you know, Mark, would applyand would require schools to provide
equitable opportunities for childrenwith disabilities to participate.
High schools are doing what they can.
They're doing the bestthey can with tight budgets.
(36:40):
But we know children
with disabilities again at the high schoollevel in high school sports
don't get the number of opportunitiesthat they should.
You know again,we're always we're seeing growth,
but not as much givenhow long that law has been on the books.
Then you look at the category of privateyouth sports, and I think this here is
(37:02):
where there is such an opportunityfor growth, we just don't have a lot.
And so parentswith children with disabilities
who need various types of adaptiveor para sports experiences
have to go drivelong distances, look far and wide.
Sometimes there's specialized equipmentthat can be very expensive
(37:24):
and that is a barrier.
So we absolutely need to do more.
There are millions of childrenwith disabilities who would benefit
tremendously from sports.
We have research that showsthis would be a fantastic thing
and we just aren't doing enoughat any level really.
And you conclude the bookby saying that the hands-off approach
(37:45):
to Americanyouth sport serves the power structure.
But what solutions would you proposeor think about for the future?
Well, what I really hope comesfrom this book, Mark, I didn't propose
a solution in the sensethat I didn't say in the book,
there is one right way to do youth sportsand here's what that way is.
(38:07):
What I want the book to dois to spur policy conversations.
We know that
sports look different, for instance,in the Deep South than say New England.
There are different sports
that are popular in different areas,different levels of participation,
different types of facilities,and et cetera.
So what I wantthe book to do is for policymakers,
(38:28):
first and foremost, to understand thatthere's a conversation to be had here.
We often sort of immediately say,
“Oh no, we can't quote unquoteregulate youth sports.
We're not like China, right?
We're not gonna sort of pluck kidsfrom their families and send them to youth
sport training centers like communist countries do.
But there's so muchpolicy space to have conversations
(38:51):
about common sense reform, minimumsafety standards.
What are our goals?
Can we do more public funding for sports?
There are conversations to behad at the state and national level,
and I hope that we start having them.
Secondarily, I think a lot of parentsjust assume this is the way it has to be.
And so I can't say anything.
(39:12):
I can't do anything.
I think parents need to be empowered.
Again, talk to your legislators,talk to your youth sport providers,
realizethat it doesn't have to be this way.
And do you think in a polarizedpolitical environment right now,
there is that possibility that there couldbe some kind of bipartisan consensus,
at least on a national level,to have some kind of meaningful reform?
(39:35):
Well, there is so much political interest
in youth sports from the perspective,and I talk about this in the book,
from the perspectiveof promoting it as a wholesome activity.
And so I want to believe thatwhere there is such strong
bipartisan supportfor the idea of youth sports
participation,that we could find pathways for.
(39:56):
And in fact, in the commission report,I co-chaired the Commission
on the State of U.S.
Olympics and Paralympics,one of our recommendations was that there
should be kind of national conversationsabout say minimum safety standards,
just some sort of basic minimum guardrails for youth sports.
And I would hope that there could besome bipartisan consensus around that.
(40:18):
And on that note, we do have to cometo an end of our conversation.
On behalf of Fordham University,the Gabelli School of Business,
and the Sports Business Initiative,
I want to extend mythanks to Professor Dionne Koller
of the University of Baltimore Law Schooland the author of More Than Play,
(40:39):
How Law, Policy and PoliticsShape American Youth Sport,
published by the University of CaliforniaPress. The book,
which I strongly recommend, examinesan underrated and under-reported issue.
It is definitely eye-opening.
I also want to acknowledge my producer,Victoria Ilano,
(40:59):
for her great workin preparing and editing this episode.
And manythanks to all of you for listening in.
For the Sports Business Podcastat Fordham’s
Gabelli School of Business,I’m Mark Conrad, or Prof.
C, have a great day.
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