June 26, 2024 • 50 mins
Welcome back to the State of Flux podcast! This month, we're joined by the Dean of Cultural Affairs from Survivor Season 46, the one and only Shredmaster General, Ben Katzman. In this open and insightful interview, Ben shares his journey through music, mental health challenges, and staying true to oneself.
We dive into his new record, his time on Survivor, and the importance of maintaining authenticity in a world driven by social media personas. Ben also discusses his love for bands like Oasis, Kiss, and Metallica, and how they influenced his path as an artist.
Additionally, Ben talks about his experiences teaching music, his DIY approach, and the importance of building a network based on genuine connections. Whether you're a fan of his music or looking for inspiration, this episode is packed with valuable insights.
Join us as we explore Ben Katzman's world, his love for shredding, and his unwavering belief in the power of self-expression. Don't miss out on this captivating conversation!
Follow Ben Katzman:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bkdegreaser69
Twitter: https://x.com/bkdegreaser69
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/4cOSX5lu2hhm3hYhMnwRig?si=2i4RuWFKTx-viJiB9A9NjQ
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@benkatzman3420
Website: https://benkatzmanshreds.com/
Follow Flux88
Newsletter: Flux88.substack.com
Website: flux-88.com
Instagram: instagram.com/fluxeightyeight
TikTok: tiktok.com/@flux88_studios
YouTube: youtube.com/@flux88studios
Episode Hosted by Rich Nardo.
Intro contains music from "Plan A" by Dmytro Somov.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Music.
(00:13):
Welcome back to the State of Flux podcast. We are joined this month by the Dean
of Cultural Affairs from Survivor Season 46, the one and only Shredmaster General,
my good friend, Ben Katzman.
I've known Ben for a really long time now, and he really is just a quality human being.
This interview was as open and vulnerable and insightful as I would expect from
Ben, and that's saying a lot.
(00:35):
We dive into his new record, his time on Survivor, working through mental health
challenges, staying true to yourself, and so much more. I hope you guys can
get as much out of it as I did.
Music.
Are you ready?
Just announced the run of shows where I'm playing guitar in Gorillatos and we're
(00:55):
opening for Primus and Coheed in Cambria. Dude, that's so sick.
Yeah, every day is like something crazy lately, you know?
You know, when I played Guitar Manic and Pussy, we did the Coheed Cruise.
Dude, I've loved that band since before they were Coheed in Cambria,
they're called Shabooty.
They're from Nyack, New York, and I saw them at the Nyack Center randomly going to see another band.
(01:20):
I was like, these guys are fucking rippers. This is sick.
I remember them before they were Coheed from Myspace. They had like Myspace.
And then when they changed the name, everyone was like, this band's amazing.
I'm like, this is like emo Iron Maiden. And then I realized who it was.
Yeah and you know like
the whole story right like all of the coheed records are
(01:41):
basically concept records around a comic book called the amory wards that claudio
wrote sick yeah that made sense because when we did the cruise the cruise was
an immersive experience built in museum their art was everywhere every deck
was like a different theme it was pretty impressive Also,
just getting back from England.
(02:03):
Seeing Taylor Swift is one thing, but seeing Oasis in Liverpool.
It wasn't even Liverpool. We saw Taylor in Liverpool.
And then we took the train to Manchester, which is where they're from.
Dude, it was like they had murals everywhere.
We were front row. And, you know, it's Liam Gallagher, but he has Bonehead,
(02:24):
Oasis' rhythm guitar player, playing in his live band.
You know, there's this legendary place, the Salford Lads Club,
which is like a social club where the Smiths took their insert photo for the
Queen is Dead and they had a whole oasis exhibit.
So I got to like see the Wonderwall guitar, you know, like all of like the album
prints and all like the it was just overwhelming.
(02:46):
I don't even know how to put into words. It was like, hey, I'm there with Charlie
and his girlfriend who are huge Taylor Swift fans there with my girlfriend who's
awesome. That's a new development.
And she also loves Taylor Swift, but she also loves Oasis.
And it was like we were just celebrating the end of Survivor and just moving into the next phase.
(03:07):
The funny part was Charlie and I were also getting recognized everywhere we went in England, too.
That's awesome. I don't even think they have it. A lot of people are like, we watch it on Reddit.
But there's also a lot of Americans, especially at the Taylor Swift show.
But it was just cool. I think, you know, no disrespect to Taylor.
It was awesome. But it was such a production.
(03:28):
It almost felt like a little impersonal, you know? The songs are really good
and it's like in between all the songs you'd be like, hey,
happy to be here, but then it's like Liam comes outside and there could have
been like a bleep for every other word coming out of his mouth, so off the cuff.
But the best part was just sharing it with my friends. I think seeing Charlie
(03:49):
flip out after being stuck on an island with him for a month,
talking about Taylor Swift, that was better than seeing Taylor Swift.
Taylor Swift was awesome. you know and did charlie go see oasis with you or
see noel with you oh yeah we all went together it was awesome it was like what
did he think the rail we all made signs it was a cultural exchange if you will
(04:09):
well that's one of the things that i wanted to touch on today you are a cultural.
Encyclopedia and in particular there's three things that stick out to me when
i think of Ben Katzman and it's Oasis, Kiss, and Nicolas Cage. The trifecta, bro.
Did I leave anybody off that list? Yeah, I would say probably Metallica,
(04:30):
but that's like heavy metal as a whole.
But it all starts with Kiss. And I think with Kiss, I got made fun of for being
Jewish as a kid and my mom got me this book, Jews Who Rock.
And it was at that age where you're playing Pokemon and stuff,
but you're getting older and you're just like, people are falling off.
And you know, you just don't know, like, what is it you're going to be into?
(04:51):
And I was like, getting into guitar playing and all this stuff.
When I saw that picture of Kiss with like the makeup, and then I like watch
this documentary and I saw the movie Detroit Rock City. It's like.
The ethos of KISS were like, here
are these nerdy dudes that changed their identities to become rock gods.
And all the music was about celebrating life and sticking it to the man.
(05:12):
And when you're 11, like nothing sounds cooler than that, especially if you're bullied.
It's funny because I look at all the stuff I do now. I do my own flyers.
I do my own design. I make my own shirts.
There's always an attention to detail. Everything looks like a perfect package.
And that's kind of what I love about KISS, aside from the music being so awesome
(05:32):
and just full of attitude,
is like everything in that first
run of like 73 to like 82 is so intentionally done and looks so cool.
And that's what I like about certain artists. It's like an immersive experience.
That's why it's like a bit harder getting into other bands after that,
because you're like, oh, the
(05:52):
songs are good, but you want to feel like you're a part of something. in.
And I think with bands like Metallica, it's easy to forget the artwork there.
It's purely the music, but the music is just so intense.
And when you are bullied and you are going through puberty and you are trying
to find the sense of self, a healthy outlet is more aggressive music.
I couldn't suppress my emotions and I felt I could get it out through heavy metal.
(06:16):
I always put a mask on. I never was a romantic publicly.
I always had my heart on my sleeve. And I always said Oasis was music for people
who think about their feelings too much.
And then like during my quarter life crisis, I definitely like got my heart
broken and was like, I'm sick of living the way that I am, you know.
Oasis came on the radio and it hit super hard. I was like, damn, I get it now, you know.
(06:42):
When it comes to Nicolas Cage, above anything else, and I think that's the thing
I like about those three artists too, is you don't do anything halfway.
Way we see all these memes about nicholas cage
in national treasure but he got
to start doing movies like raising arizona and he
did movies like vampires kiss peggy sue got married and
he's never a valley girl valley girl oh valley
(07:05):
girls you guys yeah what i love about it is like people can call it a meme but
i call it this extreme expressionalism when he gets into his blockbuster era
too there's a new persona and it's like he's just never afraid to go for it
It's the same thing with 70s Kiss, 80s Metallica, and 90s Oasis.
There's no sense of irony. They fully believe what they're doing.
(07:26):
And people can call it arrogant or stupid, but we're saying that from down here
while they're up there because that self-belief is what got them there.
And I'm a big believer in the power of self-belief.
And the artists I love are always people that just defy the odds,
whether you find it funny or take it serious.
And I take all of them serious, and I do find the humor in it too.
(07:47):
Do. It's that earnestness. And I think that's what attracts me to those artists in particular.
If you take the things you just said about all three of those artists and look
back at your music and even your persona, like you could kind of see everything.
In particular, if you're talking about Nicolas Cage, he is a character.
But it's not one of those things like you look at Kiss and it's like,
(08:08):
okay, they're playing a role to an extent.
You know what I mean? With Nicolas Cage, It's just like no, he's a character.
He's a little eccentric He takes some risks that other people wouldn't maybe
with dialogue and I think you do a lot of that too, which is really Yeah,
especially after like, you know, it's funny I went on survivor and I remember
thinking I was being cast as the eccentric one,
(08:29):
Because there was always like one per season, you know what I'm saying?
Yeah And then we got to like opening day and there was a lot of eccentric people
and I didn't even feel like I fit in amongst them.
And I think though, it's that kind of little offness that helps you stick out in the world.
And there's a lot of people desperate to fit into a machine or be a cog or be
(08:52):
what I call a subscription service personality.
Like you're ever at a concert and somebody's wearing sublime shirt they got
at Urban Outfitters and their music taste is whatever popular playlist was already made.
I know there's nothing wrong with that, but it's like, I'm just a curious person.
And I think that's why I'm eccentric.
Even with the way I digest music, I remember I got into Metallica and I was
like, Cliff Burton, the bass player's wearing a Misfits shirt.
(09:15):
I wonder what they're like. So I'd go check out the Misfits.
James Hetfield's always talking about Black Sabbath, and then I got super into Black Sabbath.
And regardless of personal taste in the culture of the arts,
I'm very interested in people in general, what makes a person a person.
And it's funny, there's this Pete and Pete episode, Sick Day,
where Pete skips school and decides to go visit school.
(09:37):
And there's this kid he never paid attention to that sits behind him that has
plaque candy and all sorts of stuff.
And for some reason, he's just totally invested in who this Normie is.
I feel like I'm the same way.
I'm just always fascinated by what makes people tick, what their interests are,
why they like what they like, why they do what they do.
(09:59):
And I think that carries into who I am as well.
And I think it's also just better to not be one of those people that thinks
you have it all figured out.
Because when you think you're through, the world's not through with you.
Do you think that's part of what draws you to astrology?
Because obviously you had a full concept album about astrology.
Do you think that kind of wanting to know what makes people tick is what draws you to astrology?
(10:22):
Oh, 110 million thousand percent. I also think it's the kind of thing where
I want to know what makes me tick.
I have like a stutter as a kid and didn't fit in and a lot of energy.
And when you have a stutter and a lot of energy, you don't communicate well and you get made fun of.
So my mom took us to like an astrologer and was like, you know,
(10:43):
there's moon and Capricorn in the second house, but he has a Venus and Pisces
and he has Aries and basically just all these contradictions that like when
put in the right place, she was like, he needs a way to properly express himself.
So she signed me up for piano lessons and that changed my life.
So whether or not people take astrology serious, I don't know.
It's a good tool for emotional introspection. I used to always ask my friends
(11:06):
to see their charts and now I'm
like, you know what? I don't want to compartmentalize or label everything.
So I wait until I know somebody for a bit, then I do it rather than trying to
immediately make sense. I'm more in a phase of like, let life be right now.
But there was a time where I was trying to make sense of everything and be like, why am I not cool?
Why does this person make fun of me? why do I like this so much?
(11:28):
You know, I'm just, it's the art of letting go, you know, but yeah, back to astrology.
I think that's a hundred percent why I was so into it is because you're trying
to make sense of the world around you as a curious person, you know?
So when you're talking about it as a tool for emotional introspection,
is that more letting your subconscious interpret what the signs are telling you?
(11:51):
You know, there's all these planets it's like Venus is your love life,
Mars is your drive, your sex life, your moon is like your internal mask and your work ethic.
And so like when your moon is in a certain sign, like let's say your Venus,
which is the planet of love life is in Pisces, it means you're a very romantic.
Passionate dreamer of a partner, right?
(12:12):
But if your Venus is in Gemini, it means you're kind of more into yourself,
you kind of play the field more, you know, so all these things when they're
correlated the right way can be perfectly described to who you are.
And it's funny because like all the naysayers when they get their charts done
by a real professional are always like, damn,
I thought it was like a joke in the horoscope thing. I'm like,
(12:33):
yeah, that's like commercial astrology.
But people have been practicing this for like hundreds, if not thousands of
years in cultures all across the world.
So it's like, how would it be a hoax? You know what I'm saying?
It did catch on in some way.
Yeah. I mean, it's not even interpretation that goes beyond what's in front
of you. It's pretty dialed in. So when you read it, it makes sense.
For a lot of people who don't know, it's probably sounds like
(12:55):
some heebie-jeebie hocus pocus stuff but to
me it's like very much oh i did the calculator i see
where this is that makes total sense you know but even
further beyond that it goes to being a curious person i think the kind of person
i am it's like take charlie and taylor swift for example i was like why the
hell does this kid love taylor swift so much but then i'm like i know i love
(13:16):
kiss and metallica so i'm not going to be judgmental but then it's like i listen
to taylor swift i'm like okay some of this shit is really dope.
And like, Charlie is a cool person.
You get to see a little window into somebody based on their tastes.
Now he's one of my best friends. So it comes down to being curious and open-minded.
You meet a lot of people who play music and they're totally opinionated and not down with whatever.
(13:41):
And you hear it on the Astrology album. There's like a metal song,
a rap song, a new age song, a disco song.
I don't know. I feel like life's meant to be lived and you got to try it all, you know?
Know yeah very diverse you know like you
did do that instrumental shredditation record that
was a little bit more dialed in in a specific direction but
everything else you've been doing it's like you're looking under every
(14:04):
rock for creative inspiration and coming up with something which i i think is
really rad so if you're looking at both the astrology record and the new record
they're both i don't know if you would call them concept albums but there's
a theme to both of them Everything's thematic for sure It's definitely conceptual.
It's not like a concept in terms of Here's a story like Tommy by the Who or something But,
(14:28):
For this one specifically, I didn't plan on writing an album that was going
to be dedicated to an experience on a TV show.
Because before you go on a show like that, you know it's reality TV,
you know it's going to be tough, but you don't realize just how much it's going
to impact you physically, mentally, whatever.
You're also glued to a contract, so I can't talk about it when I get home.
So what's the best way for me to deal with what I'm dealing with?
(14:50):
Go and rock and make music. And I met some people I loved out there and I had
some crazy experiences and it was just a way for me to process what I was going through.
And it's not like I sit and I go, I'm going to write a disco song or a ballad.
It's just what came out. For example, there's a rap song on the album,
Brotherly Love, and it features Tim.
And we would sing that every day on the island because he would call me Brotherly Love, you know?
(15:13):
And the hook was Brotherly Love.
And now that's the hook in the song. So I was like, we got to make that a song.
Yeah. It just something that just happens. I see some people on Reddit being
like, he's milking it for all it's worth. I'm like, I could see why you would view it that way.
But I can also see that I'm an artist who, although you're getting a packaged
version of a TV show, I'm somebody who had a human experience and wanted to make some art about it.
(15:36):
I think that's a big part of you in general and your journey as an artist is
using music as catharsis.
And that's something that we've kind of touched on a few times already today,
but I want to go back and dig in. Your childhood, you were bullied.
And I think that's something that a lot of people that go into creative spaces have in common.
(15:58):
There's usually something they're trying to figure out. You know, it's weird.
The bullied thing is real, but to put a whole experience into a line,
it's like that happened when I was young.
And then by senior year of high school, I was popular and I didn't know how
to make sense of it. So I was like a huge dick back to people.
Cause I thought the rug was going to be pulled under totally insecure.
(16:19):
I mean, you go from being made fun of everybody saying you
suck at guitar to like the person who bullied you the
most asking to be on your guest list you
know and then there's this like new sense
of power and for us our parents were very
busy so they're not home so nobody's explaining to you the way
life works so you're figuring it out as you go and then you get to college you
(16:40):
have to start all over and make new friends and all you're used to is being
made fun of so that's what you do to other people And then I'm also suffering
from the fact all my teachers told me I was never gonna make it all my music
teachers Not all my teachers.
It's a warped thing to a be told you suck, but be like in a huge local band and.
And then have to start over at a music school. You don't fit in.
(17:04):
Everybody's trying to sound like Imagine Dragons and you're like, this shit sucks.
And your music teachers are not training you to be an artist.
They're training you to be the bass player on like Disney Cruise or something.
All of a sudden you start a record label and the record label's going well.
And the bands you're producing are being signed off to bigger labels and playing huge festivals.
(17:26):
The whole journey of all that stuff. I'm like trying to figure out I'm still
that wounded child inside that doesn't think he's good enough.
Doesn't feel the self-belief because everybody's telling you,
well, you need to go to music school or be in the band program.
And what you do isn't good enough.
And like, I remember selling out 300, 400 cap rooms at 18 and having my music
(17:47):
teacher's voice inside my head being like, this guy probably didn't do this.
Not feeling like I was good enough to get bigger even though
at my age those were the rooms metallica was playing too
you know i remember once the label
was taken off and all of a sudden you're in the magazines and you're feeling
the cool points it was like i don't feel fulfilled i thought once this was happening
(18:08):
i would enjoy myself but i realized i was doing everything for the wrong reasons
i was like doing it all for the validation of others not the validation of myself
so i kind of quit and like I took a job at Whole Foods,
all of a sudden listening to Kiss and Motley Crue again, which was deemed super uncool.
And I was just enjoying music for the sake of doing it again.
(18:28):
It was like on that tip that I've been the last few years, like I don't care
about it being a rap song on a metal record. I don't care about it being...
Funny. This is who I am. And I think in art, especially in today's society,
and I know I'm on a rant, but I'm going somewhere.
It's like in today's society, we're so social media driven, we're built around personalities.
Who the persona is goes so much
(18:50):
further. And I've always been boxed into a persona, but this is who I am.
Some of the funny shit on Reddit was like, there's no way that guy talks like a Ninja Turtle.
It's so cringy. It's like, no, I do. My art reflects that.
And so when it comes to making music, I just don't hold back.
I'll do whatever comes to me. I enjoy what I do now. That inner child feels validated.
(19:10):
I don't need to look for it anywhere else than my own two hands when I'm holding the guitar.
And if people click with it, it's dope. But it just got to such a point in my
career where I was doing everything for what other people were thinking and not what I was.
You mentioned you still go and you'll read the Reddit comments and everything.
Does any part of you say like... I am human. I know for a fact fact, everybody does that.
(19:34):
I know Liam Gallagher's on Twitter. He made it like Liam Gallagher's only super
popular now because he was clapping back at the haters.
It was incredibly funny and introduced him to a whole new wave of fans.
I just read it without trying to take it personal, you know,
and I try and have fun with it.
I think when you're made fun of and the older you get and you know you don't
fit in, you're never going to fit in.
So you shouldn't care about those opinions in a real way, but you should be
(19:57):
able to laugh at yourself.
And I think I'm a person that is full of humility. I know how I come across.
I know not everybody takes me seriously, but I take myself seriously and I'm very earnest.
So I just try to have that perspective that I know it's out there,
but on a bad day, you won't find me looking for validation in places like Reddit and Twitter.
So you kind of just read it just to see it. You're not taking that all in and
(20:20):
not going to bed at night thinking, can't believe Corset45 said that I sounded like a Ninja Turtle.
That's not bothering you after you click out and read it.
It's kind of insane. It's also the kind of thing where you gotta take it all
in. It's part of the experience in the story.
I try and go and look at the negative when things are positive sometimes,
(20:41):
just even the playing field of my adrenaline and my hype.
That's one thing I learned about being on Survivor, watching the edited version
and how people commented on an edited version of you.
It's like, this is a movie. Life's a movie.
You gotta have fun with it. It can't all be in your favor. Yeah, for sure.
And I think that that's super healthy, too, because doing what either of us
(21:01):
do, ideally, you're kind of just going on this steady climb.
But the reality of things is that it's never a steady climb.
It's ebbs and flows. That's kind of the funny thing about my survivor experience
is like, I knew before going on the show, it'd be exposure if I did well,
but I wanted to go on the show for earnest reasons not to promote myself.
And I have like such a tough time. And so when I made it to like final three,
(21:23):
I was like, I really did it.
Like it was worth all the pain, the not sleeping, the terror,
you know, and I did it being myself. I played an ethical game.
You know, they didn't show all my moves. But I got home having this vision of
what it was for like a year.
And then it aired in the first half of the season. It was like,
yes, they're developing my storylines. I see where this is going. I feel vindicated.
(21:45):
And then I just disappeared for like half the season in terms of screen time
and my story wasn't told.
It was a hard thing. And I was like, well, didn't I just go through all this
pain on the show and then having to process it for you?
And now I got to process the erasure of my experience. And it was great because
it's like I said earlier in this interview, when you think you're through,
(22:08):
the world's not through with you. I was like, what's this lesson here?
Can't I just get what I thought I deserve?
And it's like, no, you're holding onto attachments. You're holding onto expectations.
You're imagining what people are going to think about you. And that's why it's hurting you.
It's because you're seeing people say stuff based on what they haven't seen.
And that's where I went to the music and started writing the songs to try and cope with it.
(22:30):
And like we'd be playing concerts and people would have a sign that says
release the ben edit my music is like the ben edit
but the point i'm making is that whole journey is
the ebbs and flows but the dips are what make the peaks great because when you're
getting everything you want and all of a sudden you're playing like huge venues
and you're in the magazines there's no way to not become numb to it unless you
(22:52):
practice shredditation and gratitude which i do now but bringing it back to
where I was at like 22, 23,
and the artists I were producing were in Rolling Stone and Pitchfork and playing
Coachella and Lollapalooza.
And like your ego's riding high. I was definitely feeling unfulfilled,
but doing it for the cool points and something was missing, you know?
(23:12):
Coming back to Bufu and everything, you're very true to DIY.
So you design your own flyers, your own t-shirts, you're out there promoting
yourself hard, and you're doing this so that you can be your authentic self
And because that's just the culture you grew up in.
But one thing that I think emerges from that, and you see it on the new record
with all the cameos and everything, is when you conduct yourself like that,
(23:36):
you build a network of people around you that think similarly.
And then you're stronger together, you push each other. So one thing I wanted
to talk to you about is building your network.
You got so many great collaborators, both from Survivor and musicians that wanted
to come perform on this record.
It's funny because when I was younger, I started the label to put out my friends
(23:58):
records. It was all done very intentionally.
It was like I didn't know scenes existed the way they do. I thought when you
grow up in Miami disconnected from everything else, you don't get a lot of touring bands.
So to move to Boston and there was a whole community built around bands that
didn't make it blew my mind.
It was my way of contributing to the scene was releasing my friends music.
And then we'd start putting out bigger bands. A lot of the collaborators I have
(24:22):
now, specifically the ones on my album, Mannequin Pussy, Illuminati Hotties,
Gorillatoss, were my friends before they were well known.
Like Sarah was coincidentally my neighbor in college.
I booked Mannequin Pussy to play at my house.
Gorillatoss was the big band of the scene. They definitely rehearsed at my house all the time.
But never did I think these bands would be signed to Epitaph or Sub Pop or Touring
(24:45):
the World or have a name for themselves.
It was just like we were hanging out and like I thought the local scene
was so cool It was like if this was it awesome
And then it started ballooning and becoming a
business and it was like I wasn't prepared for that
I knew I'd keep grinding but I really was dumbstruck by how big it was getting
at the time And I didn't know how to maintain that and there was a time where
(25:07):
I was putting out records for people that I loved their Music and I was trying
to be friends But it did feel like more like business or they made me feel like
it was more like business than friends and I could understand why they felt it should be that way.
That was a hard thing to grasp, like, oh, like this isn't my basement anymore, you know?
And I'd always tried to just tell myself, if you're yourself,
(25:28):
you'll attract what you need.
And at that time where the success was coming in, it stopped being about what
got me there, which was like friendship and earnestness.
It started becoming this thing I felt I had to maintain.
And all of a sudden I felt like I was fitting a character or mold and I wasn't
attracting things naturally.
And it's no surprise that the people that I worked with the hardest in that
(25:48):
phase, I'm not really friends with now because it wasn't built on this thing
other than the power of self-belief or, you know, hanging out,
making pizza rolls while packaging records.
It was built on this business sense. And there's nothing wrong with that. I'm not hating on that.
But when I had that like crisis where I had to quit music and just go back to
doing my thing, fell in love with music again.
And those people that I was friends with before were still my friends.
(26:11):
There was this time I was putting out records for people who just said,
oh, nobody's ever gonna like what you do this is kind of whack and
i kind of took it personally so i started listening to kiss and
all this stuff again it was like a rebellion towards the cool points
at infiltrated you know it was a
rebellion towards that new status of oh i hang out with
all these artists now so i got to be a certain way i had kind of become the
(26:32):
poser i always preached against and for anybody thinking about networking which
was the original question i think when you go through life in a persona and
i don't mean like i know i'm eccentric and i know that seems like a persona
When you go and put on a front, you're maintaining something that isn't real.
So anything that doesn't work is a shot to your ego because you're operating with your ego.
(26:53):
When you're like guiding with your heart and you're being yourself and something
doesn't work out, you know you like what you're doing and you know you're operating
from a good place and you know you believe in yourself. So you're not going
to be affected in the same way.
And I think people, especially in this time of personas and Instagram,
TikTok personalities and all this stuff, authenticity comes across when you
see it. There are times you know somebody isn't them.
(27:14):
It's like that's the thing with Oasis. People could call it generic,
but you know they're really being earnest when they're saying they're better
than the Beatles and singing about holding hands.
There's something authentic to it. You know, these working class poor kids that flew up the ranks.
And the point I'm making is I think earnestness always attracts.
Sometimes it attracts vampires too, but it's better to attract and build a life
(27:38):
around authenticity because you know, wherever the ending's going to be,
that there's a journey there because you're seeing people respond to something
that's authentically you.
And I think when your art or your business is authentically you,
it's easier to feel motivated despite all the setbacks.
How many times you hear these stories of these bands that got dropped or didn't
(28:00):
get signed and they were hustling, but they didn't quit and they didn't quit
because they're being their authentic selves.
I'm on that tip now and it seems to be going well.
And it wasn't for a while. I was like living at my parents playing half empty
or half full shows, if you will.
Even the way I met you is we played in a snow storm in Rockaway.
I was like, nobody's going to come out tonight.
I was like, let's not quit. Let's just go and have fun for the sake of fun.
(28:23):
Our egos won't be hurt playing to 10 people.
One of those 10 people became my manager. You know, it introduced me to everybody
who I'm working with now.
And because we went to go play a fun show without the ideas of making it, it worked out.
Also, taking a moment to shout out your manager, Alex. Shout out to Alex.
Let's go. One of the best guys I know. Oh, the ribs.
(28:46):
Talk about somebody who does it for all the right reasons, like believing in
art, liking the people he's working with. that dude goes above and beyond.
And I want to say something too. We live in a totally quantized society.
Likes, streams, money. When you were hustling in the 80s up until the MySpace
era, there was no way to see how you were doing other than playing shows and
(29:07):
seeing if they were getting packed.
And I think a lot of people are living for the likes. I know I definitely was
for a while, but there's a time and place for that.
But I think we've conditioned ourselves to forget about word of mouth,
to forget about organic connection.
Things that can't be quantized. The experience, I think that's why people buy
into experience packages like getaway vacation festivals, not because of Instagram,
(29:31):
because they want to feel something
that they're not getting when they're watching it on TV or whatever.
I think we forget that being yourself can have organic reach.
We just got to remember life isn't all about what's on the technology or the outcome.
It's like we're doing it for ourselves and real friendships can be made the
same way when you're in like the first grade and you're like,
(29:53):
I like Power Rangers and some other kids like I like it too.
It's like great. We're best friends. Life can still be that way.
But with more intricate reasoning, you know, you make a great point.
People look at it as likes are gonna actually have some sort of meaningful impact on my career or,
you know who I am my mental health, but this stuff that ends up going viral
(30:14):
is never this amazing album teaser that I'm and put it on TikTok.
It's like a person singing candidly with an acoustic guitar,
or it's a silly meme that somebody made as an inside joke that just happened to go wildfire.
And it's all the stuff that's really connecting.
Also putting my marketer cap on as somebody who's a partner in a marketing agency.
(30:36):
Yes, it's great if you post a photo and it gets 100,000 likes.
But if it's not an organic representation of the person, it's not gonna actually convert to anything.
Better to get a few likes on something you really care about than like 10,000
likes on something that you don't really care for.
Cause then you're gonna feel hurt, nobody cares about your real thing.
(30:58):
And I always say the great analogy for how I operate my life is like the Ben
Katzman concert experience.
Like whether it's a sold out show or five people, I'm doing the karate kicks,
I'm playing the solos, I'm gonna sweat hard on stage. because you're giving
somebody an experience and you're experiencing something yourself.
And like, I believe art is a great connector. So I try and connect through art.
(31:21):
How many times have I gone and played a show to like five, 10 people in a random
town in the middle of a tour?
Everybody flips out. I sell merch to whoever's there. We come back to that same town.
More people are there because everybody brought a friend. It's like St.
Augustine, Jacksonville, Orlando.
We sell these places out now because of organic reach, Not because people saw
a post. People forget. Do it because you love it.
(31:44):
Organically get where it needs to go. Don't lose your shit on instant gratification.
You might get it and you might get instant gratification for something that
is not what you want to be the attention focus.
That is something else that I think is super interesting. You got a few side
hustles. One of them is talking about this organic content.
You'll occasionally make jingles or little social edits for brands.
(32:07):
When you're making that sort of content and somebody's paying you,
do you approach that from a similar perspective where you're like,
okay, well, they're paying me to get me. So I'm going to give them Ben Katzman.
Yeah. I'm always like, if I agree to doing something, A, I got to like it.
And B, it's like, they're hitting me up. So I'm always like,
you're hitting me up to be me.
You know, I got hit up by the skincare company. They're like, this is what we want.
(32:29):
I'm like, why would I do like a makeup or like a skincare routine? That's not who I am.
I'm a musician. Why don't I show like lotion and relaxation in the hands?
And you know, this is the skincare that shreds. And it's like,
I show that this is part of my routine to keep my hands ready to rock.
They're like, oh, that's great. Because that's who I am. It's not going to be
like the Wayne's World. We will bow to any corporate sponsors.
(32:51):
And if I was, I would make it overtly obvious that I was bowing to a corporate
sponsor and doing something I didn't like and make it incredible.
Like Wayne and Garth holding up the Doritos and the Pizza Hut in the movie.
You know, let me take a sip of my Pepsi. The choice of a new generation.
It's like, like yeah but i have fun with it i don't
know i just think anything in life it's like i was saying about your art
(33:13):
your art has to authentically be you and if your art
is also built around your personality like when you're a musician and
you have a persona every aspect of that has to also be you and yeah it's like
an edit you're giving somebody a hyper version of yourself but it should remain
authentic and true so i don't know if a cigarette company hit me up to do a
cigarette ad i probably wouldn't do it because i don't smoke cigarettes but
(33:34):
like if a candy company that had
a ton of sugar in it, hit me up to do something.
I would probably do it because I eat a ton of candy.
Just do whatever is true to me. Another side hustle that I think ties nicely
into what you're saying about being true to yourself,
and also ties back to when you were talking about some of the music teachers
you had growing up is you are also a music teacher in Miami.
(33:59):
The stuff you post online, you could tell how much your students love you and
how much fun they're having. My question is, I know you teach both adults or
children, but when you're going in to teach somebody guitar.
Is it in the back of your head, those teachers that you had when you were younger
that were like, oh, you're never going anywhere?
And are you thinking like, oh, I'm going to do the complete opposite of what
this person did? Yeah, I don't teach.
(34:21):
I teach the way I wasn't taught, which, you know, sometimes you get kids and
it's like babysitting for an hour and it's like the worst.
But like for me, when a kid wants to be there and is interested,
I'm always like, if a kid is acting weird one day, I'm like,
what's up? What happened at school?
You know? And they're like, oh, I got rejected. I'm like, well,
here's a great breakup song that maybe you'll feel good playing,
(34:42):
you know, or for kid is made fun of, or is having a good day.
I'm always trying to find a song for them to relate it to. And I'll pick a song
that's on that ladder of where their skill sets at.
I'm always just trying to like have an emotional connection to what they're
doing so they can use it as an emotional outlet, which is what art should be in the first place.
And I never had that, you know, that's, but the reasons I was so into music were those reasons.
(35:06):
I just try to give kids a healthy place to figure out who they are while having fun on the guitar.
It's funny, the other thing I was going to bring up about being a music teacher,
it feels like it would be very different to be teaching kids how to play music
versus being this rock star out there playing the packed venues of young adults.
(35:27):
But I think what you just mentioned is the common ground there is emotional connectivity.
You're connecting with that student through the music and you're connecting
with that crowd through that music. Yeah, I mean, you get it.
My students, when I started teaching them, I wasn't playing huge venues,
but selling out local shows.
And I didn't think I was going to be huge. I felt like that stuff had a piece
(35:47):
I definitely talked about my music career in the past tense,
like, oh, when we did this, or we were in that magazine, and then things started
picking up before survivor,
maybe about a year and a half before survivor, I started playing the heavy metal stuff.
We're starting to get noticed. And I saw my students being like,
I want to learn how to write music. I don't want to learn songs anymore.
How are you doing that? I want to be in a band. I think it's cool because we
(36:10):
grew up before the social media age.
So a lot of people just didn't learn or they didn't try. I was always curious
and tried to figure things out.
But the way I tried to learn things was watching documentaries, reading interviews.
But what better way if I was a 10-year-old and had a teacher who ripped,
be like, go see their band, talk to them. What are are you doing in this phase?
Why do you write it like this? It's like you get to be that example that I didn't have.
(36:34):
Yeah. And you're passing on that DIY approach too at the same time you're showing them how.
My guitar player in Degreaser is my former student.
Yeah. And he rips too. Yeah. That's not a ploy. He can actually play the guitar. Yeah.
If you are talking to a young artist who's like, I want to be in a band.
I want to do it on my own terms. So I want to take control of my career.
(36:56):
I'm going to go this kind of DIY route and maintain control.
What are some tips that you would give that young musician?
Well, first of all, I'd say you kind of really don't have any other option until you get signed.
And if you're going to get signed, you shouldn't be pitching your stuff to labels.
I mean, if you meet people organically, yes, but let that stuff come to you
(37:17):
because you want to be wanted.
But my advice would be just love Love what you're doing. Don't be deterred by
whatever setback. Have fun. This is a moment in your life.
You can get everything you want earnestly take it seriously but don't forget you're in a band.
You came to rock out let all the good stuff happen from
a good place not from a place of desperation it's always my advice another side
(37:39):
hustle of yours i would say primary question is music another side of hustle
was being on a reality show survivor obviously you're someone who works in entertainment
you're a musician what was the experience like that in comparison to going out
and putting out on a record?
I guess, you know, the game is separate from the edit, right?
So it feels like two different things I did. The game itself was really hard.
(38:00):
It was the craziest cast in a while. A lot of wild personalities,
a lot of people who've never been in front of a camera experiencing power and
getting drunk on it for the first time.
And one player who's just kind of stabbed everybody in our tribe in the back.
And it's like, oh, this is probably the first time they've ever felt some sort
of high in this capacity.
It was weird to watch. And at the same time, I was losing my mind and not sleep in or eaten.
(38:24):
And I was like, just stick in there, keep grinding, you know, and I made it to the end.
And then I had the experience watching it back, being retold where it's like,
oh, this isn't my story. This is another player's story and having to accept that.
But, you know, I went on Survivor because I was a Survivor fan and I wanted
to see how I would do being myself.
Like I said earlier, I didn't do it for the exposure, but I was aware that could happen.
(38:45):
If you take Survivor out of it, let's say, oh, it's Ben went on a TV show,
was a fan of the show, but now he's been given this new platform on this new opportunity.
I'm always a believer. You got to assess whatever situation you're in and try
and make the most of it. And it's kind of like when you're in a band,
you could be going on tour opening for somebody huge.
You could be a musician getting asked to play in a big band.
All of a sudden you're in a news area.
(39:07):
Something good could come of it. The ultimate way of getting to the end and
survivors keeping all your options open.
So it's like playing music. You got to keep your options open.
Don't turn down that show because there's a snowstorm and only 10 people are
going to be there you might meet your manager don't say i'm not a fan of this
huge band i would rather play with someone that sounds like us because you can
(39:27):
go expose yourself to people that have never heard your type of music and be
the coolest thing ever so it's like be yourself,
and navigate new spaces and see what comes of it there's no grand answer you
know it's just it's that like george harrison i'm gonna be one with the wind
vibe and be stoked whichever way because if you go in with any expectations,
(39:48):
you're going to be disappointed.
You hear about these superstars getting to the top with all these expectations.
I think about Pacino not getting an Oscar till Scent of a Woman.
He was very disappointed he didn't get an Oscar for The Godfather 1 or 2.
Those were the highest grossing movies of all time when they came out and the most coveted awards.
I don't need to hype you on The Godfather. We know it's like the creme de la
(40:10):
creme, but he said he struggled with.
The fact he didn't get an oscar for that but i'm like the oscar
is just an award the experience of being in the godfather must be
sick and that's what i try and tell people all the time i
just got into rolling stone it's cool i had a moment to celebrate it but it's
like now what i'm gonna go make music which is what got me into rolling stone
via survivor sure but even how that article came about was i was at a party
(40:35):
with shannon shawn marissa from mannequin and the writer to recognize them.
The trailer was about to come out like an hour later and a person was a Survivor
fan and just this miraculous, whoa, right place, right time.
Because I didn't shut down all the options.
A big part of your Survivor storyline was the mental health stuff coming back
full circle to what we talked about with what you went through as a child.
(40:57):
Obviously, you had anxiety and a lot of that was due to the physical conditions
you were in on the island.
But I... Yeah, you know, it's weird. A lot of players go through the anxiety
and the super intense physical aspects.
Mine just happened to be highlighted, I think, because I made it super far. But it was extreme.
And I don't suffer from things like that prior to the show.
(41:20):
But when I do feel anxiety, I pick up my guitar or I go do something about it.
I'm a big believer that there's like energy in the body and you got to move
it, right? I know it sounds super woo woo.
But yeah, what was the question related to it? I was just going to say,
you have your life built around going up and performing in front of crowds.
I was just wondering, is there other mental health aspects that click in if
(41:42):
you're going to play a sold out show?
I've never had stage fright. That's the weird thing. I love getting to be on stage.
I'm an Aries, we live for attention.
I get anxiety more so related to, I'm stuck in a situation where people don't like each other.
It's like being in a band that doesn't get along. I get anxiety when I'd be gone for a while.
When will I have downtime to rest and enjoy myself, or I feel like I'm not getting everything done.
(42:07):
A lot of it is very just circumstance-based, kind of induced by society.
Oh, I'm at my parents, never enough money, growing, but we're still not making that much.
And it's all this other stuff, and you don't deal with it properly.
It comes out in weird ways.
And I think for me, why it hit so hard on Survivor was I felt like I was playing out my life theme again.
(42:27):
I got to the merge, and everybody thought I was an actor, a joke or something.
I don't know. I remember there was like a couple of times where I knew my pitch
at the end. You perceived me as a goat, but I was on the right side of the votes.
I told y'all who was going home and y'all didn't believe me.
And then look where you're sitting. And I was a swing boat.
And like the power of being a swing boat is like when you're a number, you can go either way.
(42:52):
So you're contributing to the game in a huge way.
The biggest move of the season all people talk about that all these idols didn't get sent home.
And I was working with the person that sunk my game, but nobody knew that every
time I was being a dick to Q, I'd actually shook his hand and be like, let's ham it up.
Because if they think I'm the loudest about it, then you're definitely going
(43:14):
home. And I never wrote his name down.
The problem with that at the end is nobody realized I wasn't voting for him.
So again, it all came down to perception, but that anxiety, I don't know if
it came from anywhere, but I don't feel any shame about it. It's human.
A lot of people suffer from that and they suffer from it for a multitude of reasons.
And what I wish was the storyline with my anxiety, not that Kenzie took care
(43:38):
of me and this is why they showed it because she won and had to justify a win,
was that I got up and I still played the game. I still laughed.
I never had like a meltdown related to other people.
I didn't make my mental issues anybody else's problem, you know?
And I think that comes across, but not to the level that it could have.
(43:58):
And I want people to know like, yes, you can have all these anxieties and neuroses,
but you can still be a functioning human too.
And this might be what makes you function. Like part of the reason I go so hard
at music is because I'm worried I'm not going to make it.
And I'm worried people won't take me seriously or check myself out.
So I work extra hard to combat with that insecurity and put those anxieties at bay.
(44:19):
That's what I hope comes across, if that makes any sense. It did.
And as someone who is a friend of yours, that's something I really admire about
you is how open you are in talking about those things and how proactive you
are on trying to not just find solutions for yourself,
but you'll call me and find out what's bothering me and working to find the
solution for what I'm going through.
(44:40):
And there's something else there that you talked to that I think a lot of people
relate to. It actually comes up a bunch on this podcast.
You said at the merge, everyone thought you were a joke and all that.
And I feel like that kind of calls back to what you went through when you were younger.
When I'm watching it back and I see all these other ridiculous personalities
on our cast that are just as ridiculous as I am.
(45:00):
And they're viewing me that way. I can't help but think some of it might be.
And remember, I'm friends with most of these people now.
So this isn't a dig. I'm not throwing any names out there. I'm like,
is it because of how I care myself?
Or is it because I'm totally me and I have no problems with it.
And maybe that affects something in, you know, like the person who stabbed me
in the back, the hardest had openly said they struggled with a sense of identity
(45:20):
most of their life and have never taken space from themselves.
And then they got power in the game and it kind of just blew up in their face.
And I could see why they would be bitter towards me because it was probably
a reflection of themselves.
You know, because I had been in that position when I was running Bufu records,
you know, I'm just glad I came out of my twenties and not my forties,
but I don't know, it definitely hit and it sucked because that was a controlled situation.
(45:45):
Whereas like in normal life, I just be like, fuck them. I'm going to go rock.
I don't need to care about their opinion, but you're playing a game.
And when you're in Survivor 2, there's no security blanket.
You don't know what's going on in the world. You got no news updates.
You got no cell phone. You're so in it that that is your world.
You forget your physical body can react to something so hard.
That's what I think crushed me. I was like, I'm stuck here. There's no way out
(46:08):
unless I play the game. Then I would play the game.
I realized my only option to get me to the end was using the other people's
perception of me as a mirror and having them be totally dumb to their own merits.
I think it's no coincidence the three people or the four people nobody took
seriously came together and became the final four.
And that really wasn't a storyline either. But Liz, Kenzie, Charlie,
(46:29):
and I were very close because of how people perceived us.
We get to the end and all these people didn't want to hear what Charlie and
I had to say, probably because they didn't want to hear it on the island.
Like, damn, they outsmarted us.
I mean, I don't know. It is what it is. That's why I'm grateful for the record,
I don't have to harbor on it the rest of my life and I can go make sense of it.
But I do feel, and it's no disrespect to Kenzie who won or Charlie who got second
(46:51):
place, but it's like, you know, I played just as much a game as Kenzie did.
I was on the right side of the votes more times. It's like when people are giving
the money to somebody based on what they would do with it or what their story
is, I'm like, did y'all forget they like own a house and have a successful business too?
Cause it's like, you know, it's like everybody can have a sob story.
I just felt like I was dealt an unfair hand on every level, but
(47:12):
then I actually played and to not be able to tell that story
at the end and being told time was the worst
and then to have kind of the edit reflect that like i
felt like the edit definitely benefited the jury in
terms of like oh it looks like he didn't do anything so let's not show him do
anything that was hard and then it was like i'm watching this back what am i
gonna do cry over the edit and that i didn't win for the rest of my life no
(47:34):
i'm playing guitar this is what i love to do like i'm gonna go focus on the
positives you know what i'm saying now i got this album and i'm about to go
on an arena a tour of Primus.
All my friends are doing well in the music industry when we started in college with nothing.
So it's like, I said this on the island, it's like confidence leads to over
confidence, over confidence leads to arrogance and arrogance leads to ignorance.
(47:56):
And I'm just trying to stay grounded and even monitor my own power hungry moments
and just try and enjoy the journey rather than the outcome.
Because even out there, and this can relate to life, I was still enjoying that
I was out there and hanging out with my friends playing the game.
And I think not Not choking that aspiration is what got me to the end.
Because when you got to final six and Q and Maria, who never talked strategy
(48:18):
with me, Liz or Kenzie, all of a sudden realized there was four people outnumbering them.
If you were focused on the moment, you would realize you probably should have
talked to us more. You know what I'm saying?
You weren't. And I think that's why a lot of people got got,
you know, friends with Q now, not I was friends with them on the island,
even though the edit didn't show that.
But yeah, I just think it's that got to see what's right in front of you to
(48:40):
get to the next day. It's important to have those big dreams.
Like winning the million or playing huge shows, but right now you're playing to a few people.
Right now you're releasing your music yourself, enjoy that.
If you do good at that, the next step will come and then you'll fully appreciate
it when the big stuff comes, because you will have been in the journey.
The four years won't go by where you've been blinded to your own aspirations.
(49:03):
I know we got to wrap here in a minute, but I did want to just ask real quick,
new record, what do you want people to know about it?
Where can they hear the first single? I'm just glad it's out there.
People want to listen. That's dope.
I do think it is ripping. It's just a cool experience.
Those songs are love songs to my friends. They are about mental health and believing
in yourself at the same time.
(49:24):
And regardless of all the guest features, our season was immensely popular in the survivor cannon.
And why not just have fun with it celebrated a little longer.
But beyond that, it's more about a celebration of life and weird experiences and stuff like that.
I know I sound redundant, but I just hope people if they do check they enjoy it and connect with it.
Especially the song that just came out this week, Tears on the Beach.
(49:47):
That's a song about losing it all and then finding that strength within to keep going.
And I hope anybody who's struggling can find that strength within to keep going
and keep rocking. Man, I love you.
I appreciate you. Love you. Thank you so much for doing this.
You're the best. You rock.
Music.
Music.
(00:13):
Welcome back to the State of Flux podcast. We are joined this month by the Dean
of Cultural Affairs from Survivor Season 46, the one and only Shredmaster General,
my good friend, Ben Katzman.
I've known Ben for a really long time now, and he really is just a quality human being.
This interview was as open and vulnerable and insightful as I would expect from
Ben, and that's saying a lot.
(00:35):
We dive into his new record, his time on Survivor, working through mental health
challenges, staying true to yourself, and so much more. I hope you guys can
get as much out of it as I did.
Music.
Are you ready?
Just announced the run of shows where I'm playing guitar in Gorillatos and we're
(00:55):
opening for Primus and Coheed in Cambria. Dude, that's so sick.
Yeah, every day is like something crazy lately, you know?
You know, when I played Guitar Manic and Pussy, we did the Coheed Cruise.
Dude, I've loved that band since before they were Coheed in Cambria,
they're called Shabooty.
They're from Nyack, New York, and I saw them at the Nyack Center randomly going to see another band.
(01:20):
I was like, these guys are fucking rippers. This is sick.
I remember them before they were Coheed from Myspace. They had like Myspace.
And then when they changed the name, everyone was like, this band's amazing.
I'm like, this is like emo Iron Maiden. And then I realized who it was.
Yeah and you know like
the whole story right like all of the coheed records are
(01:41):
basically concept records around a comic book called the amory wards that claudio
wrote sick yeah that made sense because when we did the cruise the cruise was
an immersive experience built in museum their art was everywhere every deck
was like a different theme it was pretty impressive Also,
just getting back from England.
(02:03):
Seeing Taylor Swift is one thing, but seeing Oasis in Liverpool.
It wasn't even Liverpool. We saw Taylor in Liverpool.
And then we took the train to Manchester, which is where they're from.
Dude, it was like they had murals everywhere.
We were front row. And, you know, it's Liam Gallagher, but he has Bonehead,
(02:24):
Oasis' rhythm guitar player, playing in his live band.
You know, there's this legendary place, the Salford Lads Club,
which is like a social club where the Smiths took their insert photo for the
Queen is Dead and they had a whole oasis exhibit.
So I got to like see the Wonderwall guitar, you know, like all of like the album
prints and all like the it was just overwhelming.
(02:46):
I don't even know how to put into words. It was like, hey, I'm there with Charlie
and his girlfriend who are huge Taylor Swift fans there with my girlfriend who's
awesome. That's a new development.
And she also loves Taylor Swift, but she also loves Oasis.
And it was like we were just celebrating the end of Survivor and just moving into the next phase.
(03:07):
The funny part was Charlie and I were also getting recognized everywhere we went in England, too.
That's awesome. I don't even think they have it. A lot of people are like, we watch it on Reddit.
But there's also a lot of Americans, especially at the Taylor Swift show.
But it was just cool. I think, you know, no disrespect to Taylor.
It was awesome. But it was such a production.
(03:28):
It almost felt like a little impersonal, you know? The songs are really good
and it's like in between all the songs you'd be like, hey,
happy to be here, but then it's like Liam comes outside and there could have
been like a bleep for every other word coming out of his mouth, so off the cuff.
But the best part was just sharing it with my friends. I think seeing Charlie
(03:49):
flip out after being stuck on an island with him for a month,
talking about Taylor Swift, that was better than seeing Taylor Swift.
Taylor Swift was awesome. you know and did charlie go see oasis with you or
see noel with you oh yeah we all went together it was awesome it was like what
did he think the rail we all made signs it was a cultural exchange if you will
(04:09):
well that's one of the things that i wanted to touch on today you are a cultural.
Encyclopedia and in particular there's three things that stick out to me when
i think of Ben Katzman and it's Oasis, Kiss, and Nicolas Cage. The trifecta, bro.
Did I leave anybody off that list? Yeah, I would say probably Metallica,
(04:30):
but that's like heavy metal as a whole.
But it all starts with Kiss. And I think with Kiss, I got made fun of for being
Jewish as a kid and my mom got me this book, Jews Who Rock.
And it was at that age where you're playing Pokemon and stuff,
but you're getting older and you're just like, people are falling off.
And you know, you just don't know, like, what is it you're going to be into?
(04:51):
And I was like, getting into guitar playing and all this stuff.
When I saw that picture of Kiss with like the makeup, and then I like watch
this documentary and I saw the movie Detroit Rock City. It's like.
The ethos of KISS were like, here
are these nerdy dudes that changed their identities to become rock gods.
And all the music was about celebrating life and sticking it to the man.
(05:12):
And when you're 11, like nothing sounds cooler than that, especially if you're bullied.
It's funny because I look at all the stuff I do now. I do my own flyers.
I do my own design. I make my own shirts.
There's always an attention to detail. Everything looks like a perfect package.
And that's kind of what I love about KISS, aside from the music being so awesome
(05:32):
and just full of attitude,
is like everything in that first
run of like 73 to like 82 is so intentionally done and looks so cool.
And that's what I like about certain artists. It's like an immersive experience.
That's why it's like a bit harder getting into other bands after that,
because you're like, oh, the
(05:52):
songs are good, but you want to feel like you're a part of something. in.
And I think with bands like Metallica, it's easy to forget the artwork there.
It's purely the music, but the music is just so intense.
And when you are bullied and you are going through puberty and you are trying
to find the sense of self, a healthy outlet is more aggressive music.
I couldn't suppress my emotions and I felt I could get it out through heavy metal.
(06:16):
I always put a mask on. I never was a romantic publicly.
I always had my heart on my sleeve. And I always said Oasis was music for people
who think about their feelings too much.
And then like during my quarter life crisis, I definitely like got my heart
broken and was like, I'm sick of living the way that I am, you know.
Oasis came on the radio and it hit super hard. I was like, damn, I get it now, you know.
(06:42):
When it comes to Nicolas Cage, above anything else, and I think that's the thing
I like about those three artists too, is you don't do anything halfway.
Way we see all these memes about nicholas cage
in national treasure but he got
to start doing movies like raising arizona and he
did movies like vampires kiss peggy sue got married and
he's never a valley girl valley girl oh valley
(07:05):
girls you guys yeah what i love about it is like people can call it a meme but
i call it this extreme expressionalism when he gets into his blockbuster era
too there's a new persona and it's like he's just never afraid to go for it
It's the same thing with 70s Kiss, 80s Metallica, and 90s Oasis.
There's no sense of irony. They fully believe what they're doing.
(07:26):
And people can call it arrogant or stupid, but we're saying that from down here
while they're up there because that self-belief is what got them there.
And I'm a big believer in the power of self-belief.
And the artists I love are always people that just defy the odds,
whether you find it funny or take it serious.
And I take all of them serious, and I do find the humor in it too.
(07:47):
Do. It's that earnestness. And I think that's what attracts me to those artists in particular.
If you take the things you just said about all three of those artists and look
back at your music and even your persona, like you could kind of see everything.
In particular, if you're talking about Nicolas Cage, he is a character.
But it's not one of those things like you look at Kiss and it's like,
(08:08):
okay, they're playing a role to an extent.
You know what I mean? With Nicolas Cage, It's just like no, he's a character.
He's a little eccentric He takes some risks that other people wouldn't maybe
with dialogue and I think you do a lot of that too, which is really Yeah,
especially after like, you know, it's funny I went on survivor and I remember
thinking I was being cast as the eccentric one,
(08:29):
Because there was always like one per season, you know what I'm saying?
Yeah And then we got to like opening day and there was a lot of eccentric people
and I didn't even feel like I fit in amongst them.
And I think though, it's that kind of little offness that helps you stick out in the world.
And there's a lot of people desperate to fit into a machine or be a cog or be
(08:52):
what I call a subscription service personality.
Like you're ever at a concert and somebody's wearing sublime shirt they got
at Urban Outfitters and their music taste is whatever popular playlist was already made.
I know there's nothing wrong with that, but it's like, I'm just a curious person.
And I think that's why I'm eccentric.
Even with the way I digest music, I remember I got into Metallica and I was
like, Cliff Burton, the bass player's wearing a Misfits shirt.
(09:15):
I wonder what they're like. So I'd go check out the Misfits.
James Hetfield's always talking about Black Sabbath, and then I got super into Black Sabbath.
And regardless of personal taste in the culture of the arts,
I'm very interested in people in general, what makes a person a person.
And it's funny, there's this Pete and Pete episode, Sick Day,
where Pete skips school and decides to go visit school.
(09:37):
And there's this kid he never paid attention to that sits behind him that has
plaque candy and all sorts of stuff.
And for some reason, he's just totally invested in who this Normie is.
I feel like I'm the same way.
I'm just always fascinated by what makes people tick, what their interests are,
why they like what they like, why they do what they do.
(09:59):
And I think that carries into who I am as well.
And I think it's also just better to not be one of those people that thinks
you have it all figured out.
Because when you think you're through, the world's not through with you.
Do you think that's part of what draws you to astrology?
Because obviously you had a full concept album about astrology.
Do you think that kind of wanting to know what makes people tick is what draws you to astrology?
(10:22):
Oh, 110 million thousand percent. I also think it's the kind of thing where
I want to know what makes me tick.
I have like a stutter as a kid and didn't fit in and a lot of energy.
And when you have a stutter and a lot of energy, you don't communicate well and you get made fun of.
So my mom took us to like an astrologer and was like, you know,
(10:43):
there's moon and Capricorn in the second house, but he has a Venus and Pisces
and he has Aries and basically just all these contradictions that like when
put in the right place, she was like, he needs a way to properly express himself.
So she signed me up for piano lessons and that changed my life.
So whether or not people take astrology serious, I don't know.
It's a good tool for emotional introspection. I used to always ask my friends
(11:06):
to see their charts and now I'm
like, you know what? I don't want to compartmentalize or label everything.
So I wait until I know somebody for a bit, then I do it rather than trying to
immediately make sense. I'm more in a phase of like, let life be right now.
But there was a time where I was trying to make sense of everything and be like, why am I not cool?
Why does this person make fun of me? why do I like this so much?
(11:28):
You know, I'm just, it's the art of letting go, you know, but yeah, back to astrology.
I think that's a hundred percent why I was so into it is because you're trying
to make sense of the world around you as a curious person, you know?
So when you're talking about it as a tool for emotional introspection,
is that more letting your subconscious interpret what the signs are telling you?
(11:51):
You know, there's all these planets it's like Venus is your love life,
Mars is your drive, your sex life, your moon is like your internal mask and your work ethic.
And so like when your moon is in a certain sign, like let's say your Venus,
which is the planet of love life is in Pisces, it means you're a very romantic.
Passionate dreamer of a partner, right?
(12:12):
But if your Venus is in Gemini, it means you're kind of more into yourself,
you kind of play the field more, you know, so all these things when they're
correlated the right way can be perfectly described to who you are.
And it's funny because like all the naysayers when they get their charts done
by a real professional are always like, damn,
I thought it was like a joke in the horoscope thing. I'm like,
(12:33):
yeah, that's like commercial astrology.
But people have been practicing this for like hundreds, if not thousands of
years in cultures all across the world.
So it's like, how would it be a hoax? You know what I'm saying?
It did catch on in some way.
Yeah. I mean, it's not even interpretation that goes beyond what's in front
of you. It's pretty dialed in. So when you read it, it makes sense.
For a lot of people who don't know, it's probably sounds like
(12:55):
some heebie-jeebie hocus pocus stuff but to
me it's like very much oh i did the calculator i see
where this is that makes total sense you know but even
further beyond that it goes to being a curious person i think the kind of person
i am it's like take charlie and taylor swift for example i was like why the
hell does this kid love taylor swift so much but then i'm like i know i love
(13:16):
kiss and metallica so i'm not going to be judgmental but then it's like i listen
to taylor swift i'm like okay some of this shit is really dope.
And like, Charlie is a cool person.
You get to see a little window into somebody based on their tastes.
Now he's one of my best friends. So it comes down to being curious and open-minded.
You meet a lot of people who play music and they're totally opinionated and not down with whatever.
(13:41):
And you hear it on the Astrology album. There's like a metal song,
a rap song, a new age song, a disco song.
I don't know. I feel like life's meant to be lived and you got to try it all, you know?
Know yeah very diverse you know like you
did do that instrumental shredditation record that
was a little bit more dialed in in a specific direction but
everything else you've been doing it's like you're looking under every
(14:04):
rock for creative inspiration and coming up with something which i i think is
really rad so if you're looking at both the astrology record and the new record
they're both i don't know if you would call them concept albums but there's
a theme to both of them Everything's thematic for sure It's definitely conceptual.
It's not like a concept in terms of Here's a story like Tommy by the Who or something But,
(14:28):
For this one specifically, I didn't plan on writing an album that was going
to be dedicated to an experience on a TV show.
Because before you go on a show like that, you know it's reality TV,
you know it's going to be tough, but you don't realize just how much it's going
to impact you physically, mentally, whatever.
You're also glued to a contract, so I can't talk about it when I get home.
So what's the best way for me to deal with what I'm dealing with?
(14:50):
Go and rock and make music. And I met some people I loved out there and I had
some crazy experiences and it was just a way for me to process what I was going through.
And it's not like I sit and I go, I'm going to write a disco song or a ballad.
It's just what came out. For example, there's a rap song on the album,
Brotherly Love, and it features Tim.
And we would sing that every day on the island because he would call me Brotherly Love, you know?
(15:13):
And the hook was Brotherly Love.
And now that's the hook in the song. So I was like, we got to make that a song.
Yeah. It just something that just happens. I see some people on Reddit being
like, he's milking it for all it's worth. I'm like, I could see why you would view it that way.
But I can also see that I'm an artist who, although you're getting a packaged
version of a TV show, I'm somebody who had a human experience and wanted to make some art about it.
(15:36):
I think that's a big part of you in general and your journey as an artist is
using music as catharsis.
And that's something that we've kind of touched on a few times already today,
but I want to go back and dig in. Your childhood, you were bullied.
And I think that's something that a lot of people that go into creative spaces have in common.
(15:58):
There's usually something they're trying to figure out. You know, it's weird.
The bullied thing is real, but to put a whole experience into a line,
it's like that happened when I was young.
And then by senior year of high school, I was popular and I didn't know how
to make sense of it. So I was like a huge dick back to people.
Cause I thought the rug was going to be pulled under totally insecure.
(16:19):
I mean, you go from being made fun of everybody saying you
suck at guitar to like the person who bullied you the
most asking to be on your guest list you
know and then there's this like new sense
of power and for us our parents were very
busy so they're not home so nobody's explaining to you the way
life works so you're figuring it out as you go and then you get to college you
(16:40):
have to start all over and make new friends and all you're used to is being
made fun of so that's what you do to other people And then I'm also suffering
from the fact all my teachers told me I was never gonna make it all my music
teachers Not all my teachers.
It's a warped thing to a be told you suck, but be like in a huge local band and.
And then have to start over at a music school. You don't fit in.
(17:04):
Everybody's trying to sound like Imagine Dragons and you're like, this shit sucks.
And your music teachers are not training you to be an artist.
They're training you to be the bass player on like Disney Cruise or something.
All of a sudden you start a record label and the record label's going well.
And the bands you're producing are being signed off to bigger labels and playing huge festivals.
(17:26):
The whole journey of all that stuff. I'm like trying to figure out I'm still
that wounded child inside that doesn't think he's good enough.
Doesn't feel the self-belief because everybody's telling you,
well, you need to go to music school or be in the band program.
And what you do isn't good enough.
And like, I remember selling out 300, 400 cap rooms at 18 and having my music
(17:47):
teacher's voice inside my head being like, this guy probably didn't do this.
Not feeling like I was good enough to get bigger even though
at my age those were the rooms metallica was playing too
you know i remember once the label
was taken off and all of a sudden you're in the magazines and you're feeling
the cool points it was like i don't feel fulfilled i thought once this was happening
(18:08):
i would enjoy myself but i realized i was doing everything for the wrong reasons
i was like doing it all for the validation of others not the validation of myself
so i kind of quit and like I took a job at Whole Foods,
all of a sudden listening to Kiss and Motley Crue again, which was deemed super uncool.
And I was just enjoying music for the sake of doing it again.
(18:28):
It was like on that tip that I've been the last few years, like I don't care
about it being a rap song on a metal record. I don't care about it being...
Funny. This is who I am. And I think in art, especially in today's society,
and I know I'm on a rant, but I'm going somewhere.
It's like in today's society, we're so social media driven, we're built around personalities.
Who the persona is goes so much
(18:50):
further. And I've always been boxed into a persona, but this is who I am.
Some of the funny shit on Reddit was like, there's no way that guy talks like a Ninja Turtle.
It's so cringy. It's like, no, I do. My art reflects that.
And so when it comes to making music, I just don't hold back.
I'll do whatever comes to me. I enjoy what I do now. That inner child feels validated.
(19:10):
I don't need to look for it anywhere else than my own two hands when I'm holding the guitar.
And if people click with it, it's dope. But it just got to such a point in my
career where I was doing everything for what other people were thinking and not what I was.
You mentioned you still go and you'll read the Reddit comments and everything.
Does any part of you say like... I am human. I know for a fact fact, everybody does that.
(19:34):
I know Liam Gallagher's on Twitter. He made it like Liam Gallagher's only super
popular now because he was clapping back at the haters.
It was incredibly funny and introduced him to a whole new wave of fans.
I just read it without trying to take it personal, you know,
and I try and have fun with it.
I think when you're made fun of and the older you get and you know you don't
fit in, you're never going to fit in.
So you shouldn't care about those opinions in a real way, but you should be
(19:57):
able to laugh at yourself.
And I think I'm a person that is full of humility. I know how I come across.
I know not everybody takes me seriously, but I take myself seriously and I'm very earnest.
So I just try to have that perspective that I know it's out there,
but on a bad day, you won't find me looking for validation in places like Reddit and Twitter.
So you kind of just read it just to see it. You're not taking that all in and
(20:20):
not going to bed at night thinking, can't believe Corset45 said that I sounded like a Ninja Turtle.
That's not bothering you after you click out and read it.
It's kind of insane. It's also the kind of thing where you gotta take it all
in. It's part of the experience in the story.
I try and go and look at the negative when things are positive sometimes,
(20:41):
just even the playing field of my adrenaline and my hype.
That's one thing I learned about being on Survivor, watching the edited version
and how people commented on an edited version of you.
It's like, this is a movie. Life's a movie.
You gotta have fun with it. It can't all be in your favor. Yeah, for sure.
And I think that that's super healthy, too, because doing what either of us
(21:01):
do, ideally, you're kind of just going on this steady climb.
But the reality of things is that it's never a steady climb.
It's ebbs and flows. That's kind of the funny thing about my survivor experience
is like, I knew before going on the show, it'd be exposure if I did well,
but I wanted to go on the show for earnest reasons not to promote myself.
And I have like such a tough time. And so when I made it to like final three,
(21:23):
I was like, I really did it.
Like it was worth all the pain, the not sleeping, the terror,
you know, and I did it being myself. I played an ethical game.
You know, they didn't show all my moves. But I got home having this vision of
what it was for like a year.
And then it aired in the first half of the season. It was like,
yes, they're developing my storylines. I see where this is going. I feel vindicated.
(21:45):
And then I just disappeared for like half the season in terms of screen time
and my story wasn't told.
It was a hard thing. And I was like, well, didn't I just go through all this
pain on the show and then having to process it for you?
And now I got to process the erasure of my experience. And it was great because
it's like I said earlier in this interview, when you think you're through,
(22:08):
the world's not through with you. I was like, what's this lesson here?
Can't I just get what I thought I deserve?
And it's like, no, you're holding onto attachments. You're holding onto expectations.
You're imagining what people are going to think about you. And that's why it's hurting you.
It's because you're seeing people say stuff based on what they haven't seen.
And that's where I went to the music and started writing the songs to try and cope with it.
(22:30):
And like we'd be playing concerts and people would have a sign that says
release the ben edit my music is like the ben edit
but the point i'm making is that whole journey is
the ebbs and flows but the dips are what make the peaks great because when you're
getting everything you want and all of a sudden you're playing like huge venues
and you're in the magazines there's no way to not become numb to it unless you
(22:52):
practice shredditation and gratitude which i do now but bringing it back to
where I was at like 22, 23,
and the artists I were producing were in Rolling Stone and Pitchfork and playing
Coachella and Lollapalooza.
And like your ego's riding high. I was definitely feeling unfulfilled,
but doing it for the cool points and something was missing, you know?
(23:12):
Coming back to Bufu and everything, you're very true to DIY.
So you design your own flyers, your own t-shirts, you're out there promoting
yourself hard, and you're doing this so that you can be your authentic self
And because that's just the culture you grew up in.
But one thing that I think emerges from that, and you see it on the new record
with all the cameos and everything, is when you conduct yourself like that,
(23:36):
you build a network of people around you that think similarly.
And then you're stronger together, you push each other. So one thing I wanted
to talk to you about is building your network.
You got so many great collaborators, both from Survivor and musicians that wanted
to come perform on this record.
It's funny because when I was younger, I started the label to put out my friends
(23:58):
records. It was all done very intentionally.
It was like I didn't know scenes existed the way they do. I thought when you
grow up in Miami disconnected from everything else, you don't get a lot of touring bands.
So to move to Boston and there was a whole community built around bands that
didn't make it blew my mind.
It was my way of contributing to the scene was releasing my friends music.
And then we'd start putting out bigger bands. A lot of the collaborators I have
(24:22):
now, specifically the ones on my album, Mannequin Pussy, Illuminati Hotties,
Gorillatoss, were my friends before they were well known.
Like Sarah was coincidentally my neighbor in college.
I booked Mannequin Pussy to play at my house.
Gorillatoss was the big band of the scene. They definitely rehearsed at my house all the time.
But never did I think these bands would be signed to Epitaph or Sub Pop or Touring
(24:45):
the World or have a name for themselves.
It was just like we were hanging out and like I thought the local scene
was so cool It was like if this was it awesome
And then it started ballooning and becoming a
business and it was like I wasn't prepared for that
I knew I'd keep grinding but I really was dumbstruck by how big it was getting
at the time And I didn't know how to maintain that and there was a time where
(25:07):
I was putting out records for people that I loved their Music and I was trying
to be friends But it did feel like more like business or they made me feel like
it was more like business than friends and I could understand why they felt it should be that way.
That was a hard thing to grasp, like, oh, like this isn't my basement anymore, you know?
And I'd always tried to just tell myself, if you're yourself,
(25:28):
you'll attract what you need.
And at that time where the success was coming in, it stopped being about what
got me there, which was like friendship and earnestness.
It started becoming this thing I felt I had to maintain.
And all of a sudden I felt like I was fitting a character or mold and I wasn't
attracting things naturally.
And it's no surprise that the people that I worked with the hardest in that
(25:48):
phase, I'm not really friends with now because it wasn't built on this thing
other than the power of self-belief or, you know, hanging out,
making pizza rolls while packaging records.
It was built on this business sense. And there's nothing wrong with that. I'm not hating on that.
But when I had that like crisis where I had to quit music and just go back to
doing my thing, fell in love with music again.
And those people that I was friends with before were still my friends.
(26:11):
There was this time I was putting out records for people who just said,
oh, nobody's ever gonna like what you do this is kind of whack and
i kind of took it personally so i started listening to kiss and
all this stuff again it was like a rebellion towards the cool points
at infiltrated you know it was a
rebellion towards that new status of oh i hang out with
all these artists now so i got to be a certain way i had kind of become the
(26:32):
poser i always preached against and for anybody thinking about networking which
was the original question i think when you go through life in a persona and
i don't mean like i know i'm eccentric and i know that seems like a persona
When you go and put on a front, you're maintaining something that isn't real.
So anything that doesn't work is a shot to your ego because you're operating with your ego.
(26:53):
When you're like guiding with your heart and you're being yourself and something
doesn't work out, you know you like what you're doing and you know you're operating
from a good place and you know you believe in yourself. So you're not going
to be affected in the same way.
And I think people, especially in this time of personas and Instagram,
TikTok personalities and all this stuff, authenticity comes across when you
see it. There are times you know somebody isn't them.
(27:14):
It's like that's the thing with Oasis. People could call it generic,
but you know they're really being earnest when they're saying they're better
than the Beatles and singing about holding hands.
There's something authentic to it. You know, these working class poor kids that flew up the ranks.
And the point I'm making is I think earnestness always attracts.
Sometimes it attracts vampires too, but it's better to attract and build a life
(27:38):
around authenticity because you know, wherever the ending's going to be,
that there's a journey there because you're seeing people respond to something
that's authentically you.
And I think when your art or your business is authentically you,
it's easier to feel motivated despite all the setbacks.
How many times you hear these stories of these bands that got dropped or didn't
(28:00):
get signed and they were hustling, but they didn't quit and they didn't quit
because they're being their authentic selves.
I'm on that tip now and it seems to be going well.
And it wasn't for a while. I was like living at my parents playing half empty
or half full shows, if you will.
Even the way I met you is we played in a snow storm in Rockaway.
I was like, nobody's going to come out tonight.
I was like, let's not quit. Let's just go and have fun for the sake of fun.
(28:23):
Our egos won't be hurt playing to 10 people.
One of those 10 people became my manager. You know, it introduced me to everybody
who I'm working with now.
And because we went to go play a fun show without the ideas of making it, it worked out.
Also, taking a moment to shout out your manager, Alex. Shout out to Alex.
Let's go. One of the best guys I know. Oh, the ribs.
(28:46):
Talk about somebody who does it for all the right reasons, like believing in
art, liking the people he's working with. that dude goes above and beyond.
And I want to say something too. We live in a totally quantized society.
Likes, streams, money. When you were hustling in the 80s up until the MySpace
era, there was no way to see how you were doing other than playing shows and
(29:07):
seeing if they were getting packed.
And I think a lot of people are living for the likes. I know I definitely was
for a while, but there's a time and place for that.
But I think we've conditioned ourselves to forget about word of mouth,
to forget about organic connection.
Things that can't be quantized. The experience, I think that's why people buy
into experience packages like getaway vacation festivals, not because of Instagram,
(29:31):
because they want to feel something
that they're not getting when they're watching it on TV or whatever.
I think we forget that being yourself can have organic reach.
We just got to remember life isn't all about what's on the technology or the outcome.
It's like we're doing it for ourselves and real friendships can be made the
same way when you're in like the first grade and you're like,
(29:53):
I like Power Rangers and some other kids like I like it too.
It's like great. We're best friends. Life can still be that way.
But with more intricate reasoning, you know, you make a great point.
People look at it as likes are gonna actually have some sort of meaningful impact on my career or,
you know who I am my mental health, but this stuff that ends up going viral
(30:14):
is never this amazing album teaser that I'm and put it on TikTok.
It's like a person singing candidly with an acoustic guitar,
or it's a silly meme that somebody made as an inside joke that just happened to go wildfire.
And it's all the stuff that's really connecting.
Also putting my marketer cap on as somebody who's a partner in a marketing agency.
(30:36):
Yes, it's great if you post a photo and it gets 100,000 likes.
But if it's not an organic representation of the person, it's not gonna actually convert to anything.
Better to get a few likes on something you really care about than like 10,000
likes on something that you don't really care for.
Cause then you're gonna feel hurt, nobody cares about your real thing.
(30:58):
And I always say the great analogy for how I operate my life is like the Ben
Katzman concert experience.
Like whether it's a sold out show or five people, I'm doing the karate kicks,
I'm playing the solos, I'm gonna sweat hard on stage. because you're giving
somebody an experience and you're experiencing something yourself.
And like, I believe art is a great connector. So I try and connect through art.
(31:21):
How many times have I gone and played a show to like five, 10 people in a random
town in the middle of a tour?
Everybody flips out. I sell merch to whoever's there. We come back to that same town.
More people are there because everybody brought a friend. It's like St.
Augustine, Jacksonville, Orlando.
We sell these places out now because of organic reach, Not because people saw
a post. People forget. Do it because you love it.
(31:44):
Organically get where it needs to go. Don't lose your shit on instant gratification.
You might get it and you might get instant gratification for something that
is not what you want to be the attention focus.
That is something else that I think is super interesting. You got a few side
hustles. One of them is talking about this organic content.
You'll occasionally make jingles or little social edits for brands.
(32:07):
When you're making that sort of content and somebody's paying you,
do you approach that from a similar perspective where you're like,
okay, well, they're paying me to get me. So I'm going to give them Ben Katzman.
Yeah. I'm always like, if I agree to doing something, A, I got to like it.
And B, it's like, they're hitting me up. So I'm always like,
you're hitting me up to be me.
You know, I got hit up by the skincare company. They're like, this is what we want.
(32:29):
I'm like, why would I do like a makeup or like a skincare routine? That's not who I am.
I'm a musician. Why don't I show like lotion and relaxation in the hands?
And you know, this is the skincare that shreds. And it's like,
I show that this is part of my routine to keep my hands ready to rock.
They're like, oh, that's great. Because that's who I am. It's not going to be
like the Wayne's World. We will bow to any corporate sponsors.
(32:51):
And if I was, I would make it overtly obvious that I was bowing to a corporate
sponsor and doing something I didn't like and make it incredible.
Like Wayne and Garth holding up the Doritos and the Pizza Hut in the movie.
You know, let me take a sip of my Pepsi. The choice of a new generation.
It's like, like yeah but i have fun with it i don't
know i just think anything in life it's like i was saying about your art
(33:13):
your art has to authentically be you and if your art
is also built around your personality like when you're a musician and
you have a persona every aspect of that has to also be you and yeah it's like
an edit you're giving somebody a hyper version of yourself but it should remain
authentic and true so i don't know if a cigarette company hit me up to do a
cigarette ad i probably wouldn't do it because i don't smoke cigarettes but
(33:34):
like if a candy company that had
a ton of sugar in it, hit me up to do something.
I would probably do it because I eat a ton of candy.
Just do whatever is true to me. Another side hustle that I think ties nicely
into what you're saying about being true to yourself,
and also ties back to when you were talking about some of the music teachers
you had growing up is you are also a music teacher in Miami.
(33:59):
The stuff you post online, you could tell how much your students love you and
how much fun they're having. My question is, I know you teach both adults or
children, but when you're going in to teach somebody guitar.
Is it in the back of your head, those teachers that you had when you were younger
that were like, oh, you're never going anywhere?
And are you thinking like, oh, I'm going to do the complete opposite of what
this person did? Yeah, I don't teach.
(34:21):
I teach the way I wasn't taught, which, you know, sometimes you get kids and
it's like babysitting for an hour and it's like the worst.
But like for me, when a kid wants to be there and is interested,
I'm always like, if a kid is acting weird one day, I'm like,
what's up? What happened at school?
You know? And they're like, oh, I got rejected. I'm like, well,
here's a great breakup song that maybe you'll feel good playing,
(34:42):
you know, or for kid is made fun of, or is having a good day.
I'm always trying to find a song for them to relate it to. And I'll pick a song
that's on that ladder of where their skill sets at.
I'm always just trying to like have an emotional connection to what they're
doing so they can use it as an emotional outlet, which is what art should be in the first place.
And I never had that, you know, that's, but the reasons I was so into music were those reasons.
(35:06):
I just try to give kids a healthy place to figure out who they are while having fun on the guitar.
It's funny, the other thing I was going to bring up about being a music teacher,
it feels like it would be very different to be teaching kids how to play music
versus being this rock star out there playing the packed venues of young adults.
(35:27):
But I think what you just mentioned is the common ground there is emotional connectivity.
You're connecting with that student through the music and you're connecting
with that crowd through that music. Yeah, I mean, you get it.
My students, when I started teaching them, I wasn't playing huge venues,
but selling out local shows.
And I didn't think I was going to be huge. I felt like that stuff had a piece
(35:47):
I definitely talked about my music career in the past tense,
like, oh, when we did this, or we were in that magazine, and then things started
picking up before survivor,
maybe about a year and a half before survivor, I started playing the heavy metal stuff.
We're starting to get noticed. And I saw my students being like,
I want to learn how to write music. I don't want to learn songs anymore.
How are you doing that? I want to be in a band. I think it's cool because we
(36:10):
grew up before the social media age.
So a lot of people just didn't learn or they didn't try. I was always curious
and tried to figure things out.
But the way I tried to learn things was watching documentaries, reading interviews.
But what better way if I was a 10-year-old and had a teacher who ripped,
be like, go see their band, talk to them. What are are you doing in this phase?
Why do you write it like this? It's like you get to be that example that I didn't have.
(36:34):
Yeah. And you're passing on that DIY approach too at the same time you're showing them how.
My guitar player in Degreaser is my former student.
Yeah. And he rips too. Yeah. That's not a ploy. He can actually play the guitar. Yeah.
If you are talking to a young artist who's like, I want to be in a band.
I want to do it on my own terms. So I want to take control of my career.
(36:56):
I'm going to go this kind of DIY route and maintain control.
What are some tips that you would give that young musician?
Well, first of all, I'd say you kind of really don't have any other option until you get signed.
And if you're going to get signed, you shouldn't be pitching your stuff to labels.
I mean, if you meet people organically, yes, but let that stuff come to you
(37:17):
because you want to be wanted.
But my advice would be just love Love what you're doing. Don't be deterred by
whatever setback. Have fun. This is a moment in your life.
You can get everything you want earnestly take it seriously but don't forget you're in a band.
You came to rock out let all the good stuff happen from
a good place not from a place of desperation it's always my advice another side
(37:39):
hustle of yours i would say primary question is music another side of hustle
was being on a reality show survivor obviously you're someone who works in entertainment
you're a musician what was the experience like that in comparison to going out
and putting out on a record?
I guess, you know, the game is separate from the edit, right?
So it feels like two different things I did. The game itself was really hard.
(38:00):
It was the craziest cast in a while. A lot of wild personalities,
a lot of people who've never been in front of a camera experiencing power and
getting drunk on it for the first time.
And one player who's just kind of stabbed everybody in our tribe in the back.
And it's like, oh, this is probably the first time they've ever felt some sort
of high in this capacity.
It was weird to watch. And at the same time, I was losing my mind and not sleep in or eaten.
(38:24):
And I was like, just stick in there, keep grinding, you know, and I made it to the end.
And then I had the experience watching it back, being retold where it's like,
oh, this isn't my story. This is another player's story and having to accept that.
But, you know, I went on Survivor because I was a Survivor fan and I wanted
to see how I would do being myself.
Like I said earlier, I didn't do it for the exposure, but I was aware that could happen.
(38:45):
If you take Survivor out of it, let's say, oh, it's Ben went on a TV show,
was a fan of the show, but now he's been given this new platform on this new opportunity.
I'm always a believer. You got to assess whatever situation you're in and try
and make the most of it. And it's kind of like when you're in a band,
you could be going on tour opening for somebody huge.
You could be a musician getting asked to play in a big band.
All of a sudden you're in a news area.
(39:07):
Something good could come of it. The ultimate way of getting to the end and
survivors keeping all your options open.
So it's like playing music. You got to keep your options open.
Don't turn down that show because there's a snowstorm and only 10 people are
going to be there you might meet your manager don't say i'm not a fan of this
huge band i would rather play with someone that sounds like us because you can
(39:27):
go expose yourself to people that have never heard your type of music and be
the coolest thing ever so it's like be yourself,
and navigate new spaces and see what comes of it there's no grand answer you
know it's just it's that like george harrison i'm gonna be one with the wind
vibe and be stoked whichever way because if you go in with any expectations,
(39:48):
you're going to be disappointed.
You hear about these superstars getting to the top with all these expectations.
I think about Pacino not getting an Oscar till Scent of a Woman.
He was very disappointed he didn't get an Oscar for The Godfather 1 or 2.
Those were the highest grossing movies of all time when they came out and the most coveted awards.
I don't need to hype you on The Godfather. We know it's like the creme de la
(40:10):
creme, but he said he struggled with.
The fact he didn't get an oscar for that but i'm like the oscar
is just an award the experience of being in the godfather must be
sick and that's what i try and tell people all the time i
just got into rolling stone it's cool i had a moment to celebrate it but it's
like now what i'm gonna go make music which is what got me into rolling stone
via survivor sure but even how that article came about was i was at a party
(40:35):
with shannon shawn marissa from mannequin and the writer to recognize them.
The trailer was about to come out like an hour later and a person was a Survivor
fan and just this miraculous, whoa, right place, right time.
Because I didn't shut down all the options.
A big part of your Survivor storyline was the mental health stuff coming back
full circle to what we talked about with what you went through as a child.
(40:57):
Obviously, you had anxiety and a lot of that was due to the physical conditions
you were in on the island.
But I... Yeah, you know, it's weird. A lot of players go through the anxiety
and the super intense physical aspects.
Mine just happened to be highlighted, I think, because I made it super far. But it was extreme.
And I don't suffer from things like that prior to the show.
(41:20):
But when I do feel anxiety, I pick up my guitar or I go do something about it.
I'm a big believer that there's like energy in the body and you got to move
it, right? I know it sounds super woo woo.
But yeah, what was the question related to it? I was just going to say,
you have your life built around going up and performing in front of crowds.
I was just wondering, is there other mental health aspects that click in if
(41:42):
you're going to play a sold out show?
I've never had stage fright. That's the weird thing. I love getting to be on stage.
I'm an Aries, we live for attention.
I get anxiety more so related to, I'm stuck in a situation where people don't like each other.
It's like being in a band that doesn't get along. I get anxiety when I'd be gone for a while.
When will I have downtime to rest and enjoy myself, or I feel like I'm not getting everything done.
(42:07):
A lot of it is very just circumstance-based, kind of induced by society.
Oh, I'm at my parents, never enough money, growing, but we're still not making that much.
And it's all this other stuff, and you don't deal with it properly.
It comes out in weird ways.
And I think for me, why it hit so hard on Survivor was I felt like I was playing out my life theme again.
(42:27):
I got to the merge, and everybody thought I was an actor, a joke or something.
I don't know. I remember there was like a couple of times where I knew my pitch
at the end. You perceived me as a goat, but I was on the right side of the votes.
I told y'all who was going home and y'all didn't believe me.
And then look where you're sitting. And I was a swing boat.
And like the power of being a swing boat is like when you're a number, you can go either way.
(42:52):
So you're contributing to the game in a huge way.
The biggest move of the season all people talk about that all these idols didn't get sent home.
And I was working with the person that sunk my game, but nobody knew that every
time I was being a dick to Q, I'd actually shook his hand and be like, let's ham it up.
Because if they think I'm the loudest about it, then you're definitely going
(43:14):
home. And I never wrote his name down.
The problem with that at the end is nobody realized I wasn't voting for him.
So again, it all came down to perception, but that anxiety, I don't know if
it came from anywhere, but I don't feel any shame about it. It's human.
A lot of people suffer from that and they suffer from it for a multitude of reasons.
And what I wish was the storyline with my anxiety, not that Kenzie took care
(43:38):
of me and this is why they showed it because she won and had to justify a win,
was that I got up and I still played the game. I still laughed.
I never had like a meltdown related to other people.
I didn't make my mental issues anybody else's problem, you know?
And I think that comes across, but not to the level that it could have.
(43:58):
And I want people to know like, yes, you can have all these anxieties and neuroses,
but you can still be a functioning human too.
And this might be what makes you function. Like part of the reason I go so hard
at music is because I'm worried I'm not going to make it.
And I'm worried people won't take me seriously or check myself out.
So I work extra hard to combat with that insecurity and put those anxieties at bay.
(44:19):
That's what I hope comes across, if that makes any sense. It did.
And as someone who is a friend of yours, that's something I really admire about
you is how open you are in talking about those things and how proactive you
are on trying to not just find solutions for yourself,
but you'll call me and find out what's bothering me and working to find the
solution for what I'm going through.
(44:40):
And there's something else there that you talked to that I think a lot of people
relate to. It actually comes up a bunch on this podcast.
You said at the merge, everyone thought you were a joke and all that.
And I feel like that kind of calls back to what you went through when you were younger.
When I'm watching it back and I see all these other ridiculous personalities
on our cast that are just as ridiculous as I am.
(45:00):
And they're viewing me that way. I can't help but think some of it might be.
And remember, I'm friends with most of these people now.
So this isn't a dig. I'm not throwing any names out there. I'm like,
is it because of how I care myself?
Or is it because I'm totally me and I have no problems with it.
And maybe that affects something in, you know, like the person who stabbed me
in the back, the hardest had openly said they struggled with a sense of identity
(45:20):
most of their life and have never taken space from themselves.
And then they got power in the game and it kind of just blew up in their face.
And I could see why they would be bitter towards me because it was probably
a reflection of themselves.
You know, because I had been in that position when I was running Bufu records,
you know, I'm just glad I came out of my twenties and not my forties,
but I don't know, it definitely hit and it sucked because that was a controlled situation.
(45:45):
Whereas like in normal life, I just be like, fuck them. I'm going to go rock.
I don't need to care about their opinion, but you're playing a game.
And when you're in Survivor 2, there's no security blanket.
You don't know what's going on in the world. You got no news updates.
You got no cell phone. You're so in it that that is your world.
You forget your physical body can react to something so hard.
That's what I think crushed me. I was like, I'm stuck here. There's no way out
(46:08):
unless I play the game. Then I would play the game.
I realized my only option to get me to the end was using the other people's
perception of me as a mirror and having them be totally dumb to their own merits.
I think it's no coincidence the three people or the four people nobody took
seriously came together and became the final four.
And that really wasn't a storyline either. But Liz, Kenzie, Charlie,
(46:29):
and I were very close because of how people perceived us.
We get to the end and all these people didn't want to hear what Charlie and
I had to say, probably because they didn't want to hear it on the island.
Like, damn, they outsmarted us.
I mean, I don't know. It is what it is. That's why I'm grateful for the record,
I don't have to harbor on it the rest of my life and I can go make sense of it.
But I do feel, and it's no disrespect to Kenzie who won or Charlie who got second
(46:51):
place, but it's like, you know, I played just as much a game as Kenzie did.
I was on the right side of the votes more times. It's like when people are giving
the money to somebody based on what they would do with it or what their story
is, I'm like, did y'all forget they like own a house and have a successful business too?
Cause it's like, you know, it's like everybody can have a sob story.
I just felt like I was dealt an unfair hand on every level, but
(47:12):
then I actually played and to not be able to tell that story
at the end and being told time was the worst
and then to have kind of the edit reflect that like i
felt like the edit definitely benefited the jury in
terms of like oh it looks like he didn't do anything so let's not show him do
anything that was hard and then it was like i'm watching this back what am i
gonna do cry over the edit and that i didn't win for the rest of my life no
(47:34):
i'm playing guitar this is what i love to do like i'm gonna go focus on the
positives you know what i'm saying now i got this album and i'm about to go
on an arena a tour of Primus.
All my friends are doing well in the music industry when we started in college with nothing.
So it's like, I said this on the island, it's like confidence leads to over
confidence, over confidence leads to arrogance and arrogance leads to ignorance.
(47:56):
And I'm just trying to stay grounded and even monitor my own power hungry moments
and just try and enjoy the journey rather than the outcome.
Because even out there, and this can relate to life, I was still enjoying that
I was out there and hanging out with my friends playing the game.
And I think not Not choking that aspiration is what got me to the end.
Because when you got to final six and Q and Maria, who never talked strategy
(48:18):
with me, Liz or Kenzie, all of a sudden realized there was four people outnumbering them.
If you were focused on the moment, you would realize you probably should have
talked to us more. You know what I'm saying?
You weren't. And I think that's why a lot of people got got,
you know, friends with Q now, not I was friends with them on the island,
even though the edit didn't show that.
But yeah, I just think it's that got to see what's right in front of you to
(48:40):
get to the next day. It's important to have those big dreams.
Like winning the million or playing huge shows, but right now you're playing to a few people.
Right now you're releasing your music yourself, enjoy that.
If you do good at that, the next step will come and then you'll fully appreciate
it when the big stuff comes, because you will have been in the journey.
The four years won't go by where you've been blinded to your own aspirations.
(49:03):
I know we got to wrap here in a minute, but I did want to just ask real quick,
new record, what do you want people to know about it?
Where can they hear the first single? I'm just glad it's out there.
People want to listen. That's dope.
I do think it is ripping. It's just a cool experience.
Those songs are love songs to my friends. They are about mental health and believing
in yourself at the same time.
(49:24):
And regardless of all the guest features, our season was immensely popular in the survivor cannon.
And why not just have fun with it celebrated a little longer.
But beyond that, it's more about a celebration of life and weird experiences and stuff like that.
I know I sound redundant, but I just hope people if they do check they enjoy it and connect with it.
Especially the song that just came out this week, Tears on the Beach.
(49:47):
That's a song about losing it all and then finding that strength within to keep going.
And I hope anybody who's struggling can find that strength within to keep going
and keep rocking. Man, I love you.
I appreciate you. Love you. Thank you so much for doing this.
You're the best. You rock.
Music.
Popular Podcasts
Cold Case Files: Miami
Joyce Sapp, 76; Bryan Herrera, 16; and Laurance Webb, 32—three Miami residents whose lives were stolen in brutal, unsolved homicides. Cold Case Files: Miami follows award‑winning radio host and City of Miami Police reserve officer Enrique Santos as he partners with the department’s Cold Case Homicide Unit, determined family members, and the advocates who spend their lives fighting for justice for the victims who can no longer fight for themselves.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.