February 20, 2024 • 49 mins
In this episode of the State of Flux podcast, NYC-based visual artist Max Kulchinksy takes us on his life journey, highlighting his dedication and determination amid difficulties and takes us through his shift from music to art. A self-taught artist, Max reflects on the challenging feats of pushing through self-doubt and feelings of inadequacy, proving that formal education isn't the only way to build one's skills.
We explore the life of an artist, discussing the importance of consistency, patience, self improvement and overcoming societal pressures to remain true to one's craft. Drawing on many pivotal moments, Max sheds light on his approach to continuous learning and the importance of embracing the process and challenging fears. He also opens up about his experiences in stained glass making, formal and self-education, as well as the values that shaped his creative endeavors.
In a deep dive into the world of NFTs, Max reflects on its significant impact on expanding his art reach. Despite economic struggles associated with the NFT hype, he discusses the limitless opportunities and potential that blockchain holds for authenticating art, emphasizing his commitment to merging physical and digital art for enriched experiences.
Delving into Max’s early life amidst turbulent societal changes, we explore how the rise of antisemitism led to him confronting and understanding his fears. He shares how this journey inspired a unique artistic path, incorporating the controversial swastika symbol into his art and sparking dialogues on antisemitism. The conversation wraps up with his "Watcher" symbol, highlighting his unique journey and perspective.
This conversation serves to inspire anyone looking to pursue artistic endeavors, emphasizing sincerity, resilience, originality, and the power of storytelling. Join us as we delve into the highs and lows of life as a visual artist, offering an honest depiction of the creative journey in all its raw beauty and challenges.
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Website: https://goodluck.world/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/maxkulchinsky
Twitter: https://twitter.com/maxkulchinsky
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Episode Hosted by Rich Nardo.
Intro contains music from "Plan A" by Dmytro Somov.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Music.
(00:05):
Welcome to another episode of the State of Flux podcast. Today's guest is NYC-based
visual artist Max Kolchinski.
As you'll see when we get into how we met, Max is truly an incredible person
and one of the hardest workers I know.
It was really enlightening getting to hear his journey, and I loved getting
to dive into the highs and lows of making artwork message with him.
When you're done listening to this, I really encourage you to go check out Max's work.
(00:27):
He is so, so talented, up-and-coming guy, and I really think you're going to
love it. But anyway, let's get on with the show.
Music.
Are you ready? I think a great place to start this interview is where we met
because I can't tell you how many times I've told this story to people because
it is one of those inspiring things to me.
(00:48):
For instance, like my nephews, I tell my nephews this all the time.
My oldest nephew's sophomore in college and he's starting to look for internships
and very cool set up. And I'm like, dude, you got to just go after it.
So it was when I was running 24 West, you had reached Reached out to me on LinkedIn,
very well-written message saying how you liked what we were doing and you'd
love to buy me a cup of coffee sometime.
(01:10):
And he showed up at the office. I was expecting some 30-year-old guy.
You were like 17 years old.
You're still in high school. And the thing that blows my mind too,
you were talking about your experience in the LinkedIn message.
You had two or three great internships. You were doing artist management.
And when a 17-year-old kid walked in my door.
(01:31):
It's like, man, this kid has the brightest future of anybody I've ever talked
to because he's this young and he just gets it.
He gets the hustle, the benefits of networking.
So man, that is just a great testament to who you are.
And over the years, as you know, we've remained friends and collaborated work
together, you have lived up to every single thing that I thought you would grow into.
(01:55):
Wow, that's really sweet. Thank you.
That's Yeah, it's a special memory to look back on. And it's funny that that
was probably almost 10 years ago now.
Yeah, it's been a while. But on that topic, one thing that I think really sets
you apart in everything that you do is that hustle.
You are so great at networking and making sure you put yourself in the best position to succeed.
(02:18):
So where does that hustle come from? Have you just always been motivated?
Or is it something that you've kind of developed starting at the age of 17?
Obviously, you know? Yeah, it's tough to say.
I think a lot of it comes from my mom being very encouraging with the stuff
that I was passionate about all the way from childhood till now.
(02:39):
My childhood dream, probably from age eight or nine till probably early high
school was to be a sports broadcaster.
I grew up a diehard Yankees fan.
I would go to tons of games every year.
I was like hounding people for autographs. I think maybe that's where it started,
like the hustling for autographs and like trying to meet players and broadcasters and stuff like that.
(03:03):
And I really, even younger than 17, like probably 13.
Was building a network in that world. And I got to meet some interesting people in that world.
You know, my dream was to announce Yankee games or work at ESPN or something like that.
And I'd always been a really big music fan, I guess, you know,
kind of coming of age more in high school, it seemed and also just like playing
(03:26):
less sports as I got older and interest changing.
I think my passion was sort of more going in the creative field versus the athletic field.
And I guess, I guess, you know, broadcasting and that sort of stuff has a level
of creativity to it as well.
But once I kind of made that switch, I just started talking to people and learning
a lot, you know, collecting records around that time.
(03:47):
So that kind of informed a lot and even hustling with that a little bit,
like flipping records in high school, pay for concert tickets or like get other
records I wanted or whatever.
It's almost like each phase has kind of prepared myself for the next.
And even like now that I'm doing art full time and still navigating how to make
this a sustainable career and having to learn like this whole new set of things
(04:08):
there, I'm kind of like pulling from each previous thing that I'd done, which is a bit of a maze.
But also, you know, the journey becomes more important as I go and as I get
older, and the kind of realizing that I've been working for a long time,
like since I was a kid, basically towards things I wanted to do.
I think all of that has sort of prepared me.
But a lot of it, I think, comes from my background, like being raised with a
(04:31):
mother that encouraged me to do the things I was passionate about and going
to a small school and just like having that sort of attention from different teachers.
In particular, like some English teachers that really encouraged me to write.
And maybe that's what helped me cut through the noise on LinkedIn.
I don't think it's like a really linear path or set of skills.
And I try to be like light and refreshing to people who ask me how I've done
(04:56):
some of the stuff I've done or how to figure some of these things out,
you know, and when I met you, you were very focused on a career in the music business.
As you mentioned, now, now you're doing art.
Full time. So were you always on the side doing visual art? Or is that something
that you kind of discovered later on?
And what led to you wanting to make that transition? So it's really interesting.
(05:18):
I'll go backwards in a sec. But it's been almost two years now since I left my career in music.
And I think at various points, I've had to learn some of these more inherent
lessons of like choosing this
life path, because it is like one of the harder paths paths to go about.
And I think you have to have some level of I don't know if it's delusion or
(05:40):
like, there's something that it takes in a person to be like,
yeah, I could be an artist, like, actually not just making art,
but like, I could be an artist.
And I think when I look back, I've been doing it my whole life without realizing
and then at the points in those moments in my teen years,
or like early college years, just sort of having a self taught background not
(06:01):
like an art school background or like a specialized education or anything like that in the arts.
I think I'd always been fighting against my lack of foundational skills or education in that world.
So now like understanding that more, I realize that there's just been so much
self-imposed suffering of, I really want to do this.
(06:22):
I really want to make this, but I have no idea how to do it.
So I'm just going to try to figure it out as I go and like try to,
you know, know, put one foot in front of the of the last.
So truly, I think I've been an artist my whole life when I really think about it.
I think the the real beginnings like beyond, you know, taking.
Classes in school or like at the JCC or whatever,
(06:44):
like doing creative things as a kid, and even like making mixtapes on my cassette
player and like burning CDs and stuff like that in my childhood,
I think the real entry point for me was probably Photoshop in like middle school, high school.
In the art class at my school, there were computers that had Photoshop and I
was really interested in making album covers basically and essentially fan art
(07:05):
for like unreleased compilations of artists I liked because I had my iTunes super organized,
you know, and even doing like alternate artworks for like mixtapes that would
come out and stuff like that.
I was really interested in it, but I didn't know that I was so interested in
it because it had that music footing in it.
So I started there and probably like end of high school, beginning of college,
I really felt like I was reaching a point of, I guess like being in the know
(07:29):
or like having like a tastemaker angle with like, with music.
But that came, especially at that time, which is, you know, like 2014, 15, 16.
There was like this huge element of fashion and street wear and
you know sort of the beginnings of social media
trends and stuff like that and i was working at major
record labels at the time kind of learning that world so i
(07:52):
really had a strong desire to dress really cool and go to a lot of shows rub
shoulders with people i wanted to design and screen print t-shirts because you
know that's what every long island kid who listens to pop wants to do that paired
with the photoshop experience kind of led me to take a few classes in college.
So I did a screen printing course, which was really fun and really challenging.
(08:14):
I did a graphic design course and a photography course.
And it was sort of in that screen printing class that I stumbled into being
an artist, like actually owning it and being like, Oh, wow, I have this concept,
I figured out like a way to visually communicate an idea that is very multi
pronged, or like, you know, goes a lot deeper beneath the surface of this like very minimal design.
(08:38):
And once I unlocked that and did it, I opened up a lot, but it still took me
a bunch of time to really put myself out there and work in other mediums and challenge myself.
I think I'm really at the beginnings of going all the way back and filling in
the gap with the education and with some of that stuff,
because I've kind of just been self-taught figuring it out for a few years to
(09:01):
some success and like and a lot of fulfillment, but also struggling through
it a lot of steps of the way.
And now I'm kind of going back, which takes a lot to do, but I'm excited to see where that takes me.
And yeah, that might have been a really long winded answer, but.
This happens a lot when I do these interviews, but there's like five different
things that I was like, I want to hear more about this on this.
(09:21):
So that's a good thing. But one of those things is you bring up an interesting
point in that you're self-taught.
I think it's a generational thing.
I'm a little older than you, but I'm the same way. I started playing in bands.
That was my intro into the creative world.
I took piano and jazz guitar in college. But before I started doing that,
I wanted to learn how to play.
So I was looking up tabs online and trying to figure it it out that way,
(09:45):
you know, and then every creative thing I've done, whether it's learning to
be a better writer, learning about Photoshop and Lightroom, photography is a huge passion of mine.
I've never taken a photography class, but I've probably watched 1000 hours of YouTube tutorials.
And this is what I'm curious about. A lot of the reasons why I went the self
taught route was because I didn't think I was good enough to be in those classes.
(10:06):
I wasn't confident in my ability. Yeah, percent.
I think that's a huge thing that a lot of people tell themselves.
That's like a deep-seated fear that prevents you
from just taking that step for sure i realized recently i
started taking drawing classes at the art students league this year and just
showing up registering for that first month and like committing to it and showing
(10:27):
up every day was a huge step even more so than drawing improving and seeing
where that leads like just i think that step for myself was probably the biggest
part and it's a little cliche but it's so true.
I don't think I realized how afraid I was until I walked in and did it.
It's funny. I feel like every creative person that I know, no matter their talent
level, or you'd say the same thing about successful people.
(10:48):
Everybody has some level of imposter syndrome. Yeah.
And I'm sure it's healthy. Because if you were to just sit there and think you're
the greatest thing already,
what's going to push you to get better, but it seems to be like a
really common thing with successful people or artists
or anybody doing something that is a little less path of least resistance yeah
for sure when you talk to people that you admire and hear it there is that level
(11:12):
of sort of reassurance and you feel a little comforted by it but you're also
like fuck if this person feels that way you know yeah it's a it's a process man.
So another thing that you mentioned there was continuing education as an artist,
you're filling in the gaps in your foundation to kind of make up for the fact
that you're self taught.
Are you making a lot of realizations of Oh, shit, I should have been doing that
(11:33):
a lot differently? Or is it more just kind of knowledge gaining?
I think it's both the first thing you said about sort of re approaching and
seeing a transformation in your own work.
I think I'm giving myself a lot of time and like room to let that happen.
Naturally, my inclination would be to come home from class and like try painting
differently or to try to incorporate it straight away.
(11:54):
But I know that I still have a bit of room to grow. So I'm kind of giving that space.
And I know sometime, you know, this year, whenever I'll see that progression,
like in my paintings and stuff, but I'm still I'm also still working on projects
that I haven't finished yet, and that I'd started before starting the course.
So I kind of want to see those things through before I completely switch things
(12:15):
up or like or really show that jump in things. But the experience has been incredible.
I mean, like I said, even just for myself to push myself through something that
I was subconsciously so opposed to, and like giving myself all these excuses
to not do has been really transformative.
Just seeing the progress from day one, week one, and you know,
(12:36):
the first few weeks to now, because I'm still doing it. It's pretty crazy.
And I don't know if I made this analogy to you, but I've been kind of sharing
this with different friends that I've been talking about the class,
it's kind of like going to the gym where it's like, it's so much about repetition
and just showing up and like, you're not gonna have a great day every day.
And you're not gonna feel super motivated or like feel physically or mentally
or emotionally your best, you know, you might hate what you did,
(12:58):
or but it's so important to show up and do the reps.
And then you see it pay off pretty quickly, but relatively, and yeah,
it's definitely it's opened me up in a lot of ways, even just generally,
like in a sense of curiosity and optimism.
And like, I feel now Now, I don't feel bogged down by how much there is to learn
or how many gaps there are to go fill in my lack of formal education.
(13:21):
And it's almost like, wow, there's so much that's in spell. And I
yeah, I want to go learn all that stuff or, you know, whatever I can.
And at the same time, I just this weekend, I just took my first lesson in stained glass making.
There's an artist, a really talented artist in Brooklyn, who does one on one sessions.
And I did my first one with her recently, just kind of learned in a very simplified
(13:43):
design and scale and everything.
Like this is how you kind of do a whole piece in like a couple hours.
And I have a few things I I want to make so that that first design that I want
to do, like we're going to work on it together and see how that goes over the next couple months.
But that's something that I really wanted to do for a long time.
And I don't think I realized it until probably last year.
(14:05):
But that's another thing where it's like, you know, just even like going on
a trip last year, and like seeing a bunch of stained glass kind of brought that
to the forefront of my brain where I was like, Oh, wait, I actually always really
wanted to do this. And it's not impossible.
I'm in New York, I'm sure there's somebody that could help teach me.
And the same goes with Art Students League. It's a pretty low barrier to entry
to learn creative skills versus
(14:29):
going for an MFA or paying someone to take one-on-one lessons or whatever.
So even though it's not the smallest first step, taking that small first step
has really unlocked a lot.
I'm very excited, but also unlike myself, I'm feeling patient about how this
is going to cultivate into new things.
It's already been really rewarding. If you could go back, would you prefer to go the way you did?
(14:51):
Or would you rather take a more structured educational approach to art?
Because on one side, there is so much value to the education and the training and everything.
But there is so much that probably makes what you do and your art unique to
you because you're self taught.
So yeah, I think that's a part of it.
And also my experience leading into this path is quite unique.
(15:13):
I don't think I answered one of your questions earlier what wanted
me to make that switch and a lot of it was the nft
boom of the last few years and just
in a really brief synopsis like i got into that stuff during
covid in 2020 i started keeping up with all that and learning about it i started
collecting like very inexpensive but very cool things that i thought i wanted
(15:36):
to collect and i had a bunch of artists friends who were doing it and seeing
success with their work and that led to me connecting with more people and
helping people out and all that sort of stuff.
And then eventually selling my art for the first time through that mechanism.
And then that kind of gave me some sort of confidence that like,
I could do this because I was selling paintings and selling drawings and digital pieces and stuff.
(16:00):
I think, you know, if things went differently, and in high school,
I was like, Oh, I want to pursue art. And I went to like some sort of MFA program or whatever.
I don't think I would have really pursued any of that stuff,
because it's very, or at least at the beginning, I think it was very against
the grain traditional art world.
And I don't think I would have really found what interested me on my own necessarily.
(16:21):
There are a few things visually that...
Are interesting to me that even from like my
really really terrible early drawings
and paintings there's a through line from that stuff
to what i'm doing now and i'm sure for a while it'll
be that way some of these themes or motifs you know i
i don't really have a desire to go back in time and radically
(16:42):
change things i really try not to live with any sort of
regret but i i do especially in this experience taking
classes at the league and feeling very gassed
on learning things and like trying new things
i do wish that i'd started earlier because i think
it would have only helped me more in those challenges
and periods i think that's what this time is for now and
(17:05):
luckily i'm in a place where i have enough stability financially i can take
this time to sort of incubate and learn and before i feel this insane pressure
to sell work or figure out what my commercial breakthrough is going to be and
it's sort of funny a lot of the biggest artists that you could think of music, you know, art,
film, whatever, when you really think about your favorite, they all have,
(17:29):
or most really, some people get very lucky very early in their careers or in
their practices, a lot of the greats have these formative early periods where
they're learning and they're experimenting and whatever,
and then something just sticks like the Murakami flower causes figure.
Whatever, like those sorts of things that become this commercial iconography
that it's almost like a cross or a Star of David where it's Yeah, it's a Murakami flower.
(17:53):
Of course, I'm gonna buy that $80 t shirt.
I was joking with a friend of mine last week going in and like drawing nude
models every day is great. My fun, like weird figurative paintings are great.
Maybe in my 30s, I'll figure out what my sellout moment is going to be that may or may not happen.
But I really would like it to be built on something and
to like be a person that kind of knows to an extent what
(18:13):
to do with that sort of pressure and that was always something that
i talked about with the artists i worked with in my music business
career you don't just want your first song to pop off
and then you have no idea how to follow it up or you have no idea how to
perform on stage or whatever like you do really want
this to be built on something even though i've been doing this for
almost two years i don't think there's like an amount of time or a specific
(18:34):
way or rhyme or reason that prepares someone for that or gets them to that point
so i'm trying to be a little bit bit more patient than I would tend to be or
a little bit more easy on myself with some of this stuff because that really
harsh self-critic is something I do too.
I think every creative person has some of that along with the imposter syndrome.
Maybe they're best friends, but I think it's important to just try not to force
(18:56):
things and let them happen and accept that like, yeah, I didn't go to art school.
That doesn't need to stop me.
You mentioned patience again, which is obviously one of the most important lessons
for anybody, whether they're in a creative space or not. You you need patience
in life to be successful.
So what do you do to help kind of harness that patience? Like,
how'd you develop it in yourself? Was it just a realization?
(19:18):
Or did you work at it? I haven't, honestly, I mean, with these bigger picture
things, I think it's just trying to be a little bit more present.
And in the moment with what you're doing now, which is a muscle I'm working to exercise every day.
Yeah, I started the artist way through your recommendation. I have it here.
And this was my second day of doing the morning pages.
(19:38):
I think a lot of it is just trying to be present and like just
in general in whatever way you can take life slow and
most days that i get out of my drawing class i've been
pretty exhausted and it's been hard to work on paintings or like it's been hard
to just exert a lot of mental energy into stuff aside from maybe like djing
because i'm doing it really just for myself and to enjoy it just trying to like
(20:00):
find little bits of peace so that when i start thinking far ahead i'm like actually
all I need to do today is do my morning pages,
talk to Rich, go to class, you know, do that sort of stuff.
Because it's easy to think really far ahead and be hard on yourself and not
be satisfied with where you're at, or, you know, want more.
I think that's like every person in every creative field, it's like always on
(20:23):
to the next thing, or it's always about like the next stage or wanting more.
Like I said, luckily, I'm in a phase where like, I don't feel huge amounts of
pressure to to have everything figured out, but in like three years, I probably will.
So I know that I just need to like work hard right now. So that hopefully at
that point I can sort of have it figured out, you know?
(20:43):
You just brought up another great point. And it's something that I've been thinking
about a lot lately, when you said for most creative people, the mentality is kind of on to the next.
Do you think that's just a trait of creativity and ambition?
Or do you think that's something that our society is kind of pushing on artists
now because of the way we treat art and entertainment as disposable?
(21:05):
I think it's a bit of both.
I think the pressure and the desire to kind of keep up with everyone and,
you know, be able to flex like the latest project you're doing or whatever.
I think a lot of that is societal.
But I mean, even in my interest in art history is limited because I really lean
towards the things I like and I don't really study the stuff I don't like as
(21:27):
much, which is something I need to work on.
But in this class that my instructor has really been talking a lot about,
like the masters and Leonardo and, you know, people whose work are great and have informed so much.
But like, I don't really sit around and like look at Renaissance era art all the time.
But those guys really made a lot of stuff and really pushed themselves and did
these things that are really hard to imagine even doing now.
(21:50):
So with that sort of limited technology and limited amounts of color and tools.
It's pretty incredible. So I think some of it is inherent to creativity and
ambition and wanting to create things that you want to see in the world.
But I think a lot of the pressure and like needing to keep up and posture in
different ways, like a lot of that's societal.
And a lot of my artist friends who are not the most content inclined and really
(22:16):
have very little interest in becoming influencers or becoming celebrities,
is but really just want to create and want their work
to be seen and want to connect with people and and really
just live moderately successful lives maybe shown in galleries or maybe have
successful products or whatever but not necessarily post every day or you know
have millions of people watching them those people really just want to make
(22:37):
stuff and share it and sell it or whatever a lot of my friends who are built
that way like really just want to draw really just want to paint.
And not that many of them want to do all this other shit. And you could kind
of see the difference in approach to the work itself from the people that are
kind of more influencers than artists.
And I try not to say that with any sort of negativity or judgment,
(23:00):
but I'm more in the camp of like being interested in the work than in the appearance
of it after years of being in that scene, whether it was the music industry scene,
which is very cloud driven in the NFT
space for a majority of that the various hype
cycles I think were driven by wow that sort of stuff
and it doesn't really interest me it's hard to say humbly
(23:21):
so I apologize if I sound like a bit of a douchebag but
I you know I have friends that are really successful I've made connections and
worked with people who I admire and like who I think are great and that you
know random people or friends of mine that aren't from these circles are like
wow that's so cool you're friends with this person I don't get excited by the
allure of it I'm just I admire admire people who I admire and,
(23:42):
you know, art that I admire, whatever.
And it's all kind of on an equal footing. I don't support one friend more because
they're friends with this celebrity or they're in this gallery or whatever.
In these sorts of worlds and circles, it becomes apparent where people's intentions are.
And I think as long as you just know where yours are and you work towards those
things, that's what counts.
(24:02):
And it's hard not to sound bitter or not to judge people in the other camp.
But I've really more recently just tried distance myself for a minute and towards
the stuff I do care about rather than exist in those spaces and feel not great about it.
Because then you start to lose sight of your priorities or just I think like
comparing yourself to other people can't really help much. But it's it's a bit of a minefield, man.
(24:24):
There's no guarantee that you know, hard work or consistency will lead to success.
But try your hardest and try to make what you can with what you've got.
What you just said there about the the people you surround yourself with is super important.
Because personally, I grew up on the hardcore and punk and heavy music scene here on Long Island.
I say this all the time, the only reason I found any level of success in a field
(24:49):
where it's really hard to find success.
And there's a million people that start out wanting to do it,
and then very few of those continue into it as a career.
A lot of that I attribute to what I learned on that scene.
The whole DIY ethics and don't think about, am I going to get on MTV as a band?
I just want to write songs on my guitar, play with my friends,
(25:11):
and play to a room of 10 people in a VFW hall.
And that's fun, and I enjoy that. I think if you look across most movements
and successful creative people, you see that they usually come from a specific
scene, whether it's a punk hardcore scene in music or New York City in the 80s.
I feel like you have that the people you met largely through NFTs, right?
(25:34):
Yeah, it opened up my world to a lot of visual artists.
It is very DIY mentality. And it's a lot of self taught artists.
It's a lot of people that have hustled their way into success and sort of figuring
things out as they went through that I found a lot of people that inspired inspired
me to want more for myself as an artist and like to pursue it seriously and all that sort of stuff.
(25:55):
Yeah, I know the market is rebounding a little bit now.
But a lot of those people made a decent amount of money for those couple of
years. They're obviously continuing on as artists.
I don't know how many of your friends came from that world beforehand or if
NFTs was a gateway to a little bit of success for them.
But was it helpful for you and all that whole group of artists that you navigated
(26:15):
the web three scene with to have to kind of transition back into a more traditional
model to continue to find success?
Yes and no for different people. I think because times were so good for a while
there, everyone in different forms and on different levels kind of over leveraged themselves.
Like whether it was attention and time or literally money or assets or whatever.
(26:38):
I think it's been really good for me because it's forced me to kind of face
these challenges head on and want to learn more and grow and all that sort of stuff.
I have a lot of friends that are struggling financially. So I wouldn't say that
it's really been great for that.
Maybe spiritually or like in terms of creative journey, perhaps.
But some people that I'm friendly with in the space had some success either
(27:01):
in the traditional art world, not many, but some a little bit,
or in kind of DIY downtown New York type of art scenes.
And some as designers or creative agencies, I see some people that have complete
separate careers from their art who are going to be fine.
So it's a bit of a spectrum. I think it's been harder on some than others.
And also some artists had a lot of success playing the NFT market,
(27:24):
you know, essentially like day trading while also doing their thing.
And some people made better decisions than others in that world.
So some people, you know, have some cushion with that stuff.
Some don't. Some people did their taxes the way that they should.
Some people didn't. I think it's like anything else, you know.
And yeah, things are sort of rebounding again. I've been a bit more removed from the space.
(27:45):
Like I still definitely have a foot in and I, you know, it means a lot to me
and it really did change my life in a lot of ways, even if it hasn't like continued
to just be like high rolling times.
But yeah, I think it'll continue to morph and ebb and flow.
And I don't know how much of it will be sort of traditional art or,
you know, like 2D art and how much of it is going to be more metaverse based
(28:06):
or, you know, gaming or whatever other sort of content.
But it's a weird space it's a weird
market driven space and i think a lot of people pretended
to care about the art and a lot of people convinced themselves
that people cared about the art that me being one
of them you know and then a lot of collectors or curators or platforms or whatever
(28:27):
you know we're very clearly in a play the market and we know what happened to
the market so i think it really remains to be seen like what that means for
artists but the people who have continued to do stuff are going to continue on that path.
I don't know so many people have like given up on making art.
But you know, when you don't have that steady income, I have friends that are
taking up service jobs or have to do like creative things and fields that they
(28:51):
hate, or, you know, making things that they don't like, because they need to pay bills,
the fallout of that tippy top profit bull market.
It's been tough for pretty much everybody, even the really successful artists
staying on web three and blockchain for a little bit.
I don't think we're ever going to see like like a bull rush on PFP projects again.
But I do think the blockchain is going to be one of the most important innovations in history.
(29:16):
And I think from an NFT perspective, I think that just being able to use blockchain for...
Authenticating, it's going to be huge as well, which not to pat you on the back again.
But you know, I feel like that was always kind of your approach to NFTs anyway,
with your art was you were doing actual physical paintings, and including the NFT with that work.
(29:37):
Is that something that you think is even as this market? Is it what it used to be?
If you're working on a piece of art? Are you still attaching it to the blockchain?
Or are you past that for now? Yeah, it depends.
Like I I haven't really minted anything in a while.
It's definitely been several months. I found that many collectors in the space
(29:57):
don't really care that much about the physical work.
Interestingly enough, for an artist that mainly makes physical work,
there are still a couple of pieces that I sold for good money.
It's surprising that people don't want the painting. So I'm still holding onto a couple.
It's very individual what people
are interested in and why they buy these things in in the first place.
And they're definitely people that wanted to hang things on their wall.
(30:18):
And that's why they bought them in the first place.
And I think maybe some people just believed in me or wanted to support me or
found out about me through another artist or saw me in a show or whatever.
But that was always Yeah, definitely one of the more important things to me
connecting these physical digital worlds in real life experiences like galleries
or parties or things like that.
Those were always the brighter moments of the more interesting experiences and
(30:42):
making making friends that maybe never even bought my art or never really liked it or whatever.
But kind of having those exchanges, I do miss that a bit.
I think that has been one of the harder or like more disappointing results of
everything coming down to earth a bit.
There's less of that. And the events that do happen are different.
(31:02):
I think in the future, I'll admit if someone buys a painting,
especially if it's like thousands of dollars, like,
totally augmented for them if they wanted it but my my head
hasn't been there too much recently and i've also i think
as i've kind of worked on different projects i realized that like
maybe some things are more for this crowd and other
things are more for another crowd like there's a project sort
(31:22):
of in progress right now that i've kind of kept in
mind as like something i can do digitally there's a
physical component but it would be like interesting digitally and
there might be some more interest for a lot
of people to like have a copy of this digitally and then
there's like one really special physical connected to it
so yeah we'll see another patience thing and
(31:43):
and it's a good time too to either like go all in
and and like mint a bunch of shit and like see what
works there are all these different trends like with bitcoin ordinals and
a lot of people are minting on solana again and i'm like in the
know enough to kind of know the trends that are going on and like the
artists that are doing stuff and like what is working and
what's not but like when i see some of the projects on bitcoin or
(32:04):
in solana i'm like this art is is garbage i don't
really want to put my stuff next to the stuff and it's
it's a lot like that pfp trend where i think people are just
trying to be early what i was trying to say is i think it's a good time to either
try a bunch of shit see what sticks build another market or another collector
base around the trends or watch it moderately the way i have and sort of in
the back of your mind okay this is like what i'm interested in what i want to
(32:26):
do and when there's that convergence of like this is what's working in the market
and this is what i want to do then and I'll put it out.
You know, from our friendship origin story that you're a hustler,
obviously, you're putting a lot of work in your art, and you're very talented.
So what are some of the things that you think are key to building a career as a visual artist?
Well, I appreciate the compliments. I'm still figuring it out, man.
(32:48):
I think there's like infinite things to figure out and sort of learn and apply and practice.
But first and foremost, like you should really only Only do it if you really
want it and you're absolutely prepared for a lot of ups and downs.
And I think that's something I was prepared for in my time in the music business
because there are lots of ups and downs in it.
(33:10):
But the difference is there aren't a team of executives and lawyers telling
you you can't do shit all the time. It's kind of choose your own adventure.
There might be money or galleries or different roadblocks that get in your way
from doing something the way you want to. But ultimately, it all falls on you
because you're the artist, it's your career, you got to figure it out.
(33:30):
And with NFTs, or, you know, even just the internet in general,
there are ways to kind of circumvent all of these players that could sort of
gatekeep you or whatever.
So, you know, I think I think you first and foremost, you need to like really want it and be prepared.
To fail and to have a hard time for the first however
long you'll hear often stories of artists
(33:51):
and actors and musicians that don't have their big
break or don't have any sort of success until they're like 50 60
you know so i guess like kind of expect that
that like you're not gonna get into
a museum for like decades probably if that's one
of your goals or you know a commercial gallery or whatever you
know whether it's visual art or music or whatever so
(34:12):
much of what interests people in creative things
are stories so whether it's literally your personal
story or the story you're trying to convey with your
work you should really have something strong there and
it doesn't have to be so obvious or so explained but when
you look at something you can kind of tell if there's more
beneath the surface or not and we're past
(34:35):
the point of copying artists from the 80s and
90s and that being interesting or or any era
for that matter even if you are very inspired by ex-artists to
at least put three to ten percent of your own spin on it
so there's something that could appeal to someone so they wouldn't just go look
at you know a warhol book or whatever the theory of creative surprise are you
(34:55):
familiar with it creative surprise no can you explain it not creative what's
the term familiar surprise maybe it's familiar surprise so okay i know this
really smart man named David Rosen.
His training is in neuroscience.
I guess you just say he is a scientist, lifelong musician.
It's familiar surprise is the term, by the way. But he dedicated years to figuring
(35:18):
out what makes people enjoy music.
And what he learned is it has to be familiar enough for it to be comfortable
for people to listen to it.
But with enough of a a twist on it that it doesn't make somebody say,
oh, I've already heard this, you know? Yeah, the familiarity is inviting.
And then the surprise is the hook. Exactly. Yeah. So I think that's a part of
(35:41):
it is like having that balance.
And I know you got to get out of here in a little bit, but there is one other
thing that I wanted to bring up here.
And that's you have a lot of messaging in your art.
You know, obviously, a lot of that you want to leave up to interpretation,
but how you would describe the messaging in your art and what your experience
(36:01):
has been getting it out there in the world.
I think the most obvious one would be the watcher symbol that I designed probably
a bit over two years ago now.
The sort of inspiration to create a symbol that, again, has some familiarity,
but some uniqueness to it.
And even just in of itself, creating a symbol that could be easily recognizable
(36:23):
and sort of identifiable as a tag or, you know, something that that kind of
associates with me or with an idea.
I think a lot of that I realized later on subconsciously really had to do with
my first art project that I ever shared, which was a little over five years ago.
That was sort of what I worked on in that screen printing class I mentioned earlier.
(36:43):
And it's worth touching on, not going too deep into.
That project was called Good Luck. That was sort of college-aged Max coming
to terms with all these crazy things going on in the world in 2017.
So, this is like, you know, post-Trump election in the midst of a Jewish man in New York City.
(37:04):
Noticing a lot of antisemitism on college campuses and literally seeing a swastika
etched into a desk in my school and seeing a lot of stuff online and coming
from a relatively religious Jewish background and going to a Jewish school growing up,
feeling very disturbed by that
and kind of surprised because I didn't experience that so much growing up.
(37:27):
And I realized that there There was so much power and fear baked into iconography
and symbols and particularly the swastika in this case.
It forced me to kind of approach it. Like one day I was just like,
all right, like I need to learn why I'm so afraid of these lines.
You know, it's such an absurd thing to even put it that way.
(37:48):
But it's true. You're literally afraid of lines. What's this about?
You know, learning the origins in a very elementary manner, like Wikipedia and
like a few articles maybe. maybe.
And I think I read part of a book about it. Learning that the origins of the
swastika go way back and really have the complete opposite meaning than what
the Nazis intended and it really being about good luck and good fortune and all of that,
(38:13):
it immediately clicked in my head when I read the words good luck,
because probably one of the most famous Jewish exports of all time is the phrase mazel tov.
And the definition of mazel tov is good luck.
It's actually not not congratulations, like a lot of people think,
because we say it at, you know, big life events or whatever.
Which I also think is a very Jewish
thing, you know, to like celebrate something and be like, good luck.
(38:36):
So once I made that connection, it was this really profound juxtaposition of
the thing that every modern Jew fears the most being really the same as this
phrase that we say all the time, like in a really positive light.
And that made me want to sort of flip the script and and put them next to each
other, which is what I did in that design on the poster that I screen printed.
(38:57):
And then so there was a lot of swastikas for like a year or two.
There were a lot of a lot of looking for them, them coming to me,
which, you know, no person should really wish for producing a lot of them,
which is a very bizarre thing as a Jewish person.
And it connected me to, you know, different artists and different interesting
people that saw something in it And we're like, wow, like conceptually, this is really strong.
(39:21):
And, you know, some of the stuff that I made to complement that design,
you know, now when I look back on it, some of it wasn't that great or could
have used some rewrites or some tweaks or whatever.
But it is still something I'm very proud of. And it's foundational to me wanting to do art.
It was like sort of making art as a means to express things that otherwise wouldn't.
Get really lost in Instagram captions or even conversations oftentimes,
(39:44):
because for whatever reason, it's very polarizing to be a Jewish person.
This even goes without talking about Israel or whatever.
That stayed with me for a long time. You know, I showed it to people a little over five years ago.
And then I started painting more and doing kind of more figurative stuff and abstract stuff.
And I really wanted to have some sort of tag or symbol or like something thing
(40:05):
that I could just draw that encapsulated a lot of this, but I didn't know how.
And another symbol that really came to me, kind of the opposite of the swastika
in a way, like I just kind of found myself interested in it all of a sudden
after seeing it for so many years, was the hamsa, sort of like the hand,
you know, like with the evil eye, and it's supposed to protect you and guide you and stuff like that.
(40:27):
That became really interesting to me, probably like the summer of 2021,
as I was working on different pieces.
And I actually made a piece that sort of recontextualized that poster that I'd
made two, three years before.
So I think there was just a lot going on in the back of my mind that I didn't realize.
And I started drawing the Hamsa in like a really simple way and like trying
(40:47):
to design it in a way that was very minimalist and modern and sort of easy to
repeat and easy to copy and whatever.
And those were sort of the beginnings of the Watcher symbol.
That's what I wound up calling it was the Watcher.
Because it sort of looks like an eye, it sort of looks like a hand.
And it does, to me, it represents a lot of the things of the Hamsa.
But to other people, it kind of looks like a jellyfish or a UFO or a basketball hoop.
(41:13):
I've heard some really interesting things, which is super cool. I love that.
So I try not to overdefine it. But I think it is interesting to know the origins
and to know the intentions.
Because the intention of the symbol is anti-hate symbol.
It's supposed to be like the opposite of how you feel when you see a swastika, essentially.
There's a through line through all the work. and a lot of it is about individual
versus collective and sort of like place in the world and I mean identity is
(41:38):
baked into all of it but it's a little bit less obvious I think than what
I was in college and sort of being a super lib and, you know,
like trying to make such grand activist statements with everything that I made.
But yeah, I do agree that it is
really important to make something that at least means something to you.
Not every artist needs to be a social activist or, you know,
(42:01):
even pretend to be because a lot of artists aren't interested in that or don't
really want to make work about that. And I don't think anyone should be forced to.
But even the The Murakami flower has to have some sort of meaning or some sort
of origin story that means something to him.
Otherwise, he wouldn't want to be making it for so long. I want to focus a little
bit on the watcher symbol and the call out of anti-Semitism.
(42:25):
Because for me personally, and this is so stupid, and it's something I shouldn't be thinking about.
If I'm going to post something on threads or Instagram, I think to myself,
oh, no, that's too catalytic.
I don't want to deal with people being annoyed with me saying this.
And who am I to say this? And obviously, when you're putting out work that you
put legitimate effort into,
not just an Instagram post, and you're putting it out there as a representation
(42:47):
of yourself to do so covering a topic that's so catalytic really runs the risk
of, you know, there are a lot of assholes out there who are going to look at
that and be like, this is somebody that we should be targeting.
Like we should hurt this person. Yeah. So did you have any hesitancy or fear
when you were going to come out publicly and tackle such a catalytic issue? you?
Yes and no. So here's the thing. I want to start here.
(43:10):
Anti-Semitism shouldn't be a catalytic issue. It is, but it shouldn't be in
the way that like speaking out against racism or hatred towards Native Americans
or Asian or gay people or trans people,
like none of these things should be catalytic because everybody should just
accept that there are people that do things differently and like have different
experiences or whatever.
(43:31):
That's kind of ground floor. If people can't meet I don't really give a shit about their opinion.
That's where I start in terms of like the early work, the good luck stuff and the swastikas.
The people who were most offended and most disturbed by it, for the most part, were Jewish people.
And I kind of expected that once I was starting it and once I was starting to
(43:52):
show it to people. And it comes with the territory.
I wasn't trying to inflame anything or hurt anyone.
So I think once I was able to have conversations with Jewish folks that were
offended by it, they were able to see that. It's all very subjective.
There's a friend of mine, And an artist who I became friendly with kind of through
some of these circles was a Holocaust survivor.
(44:13):
And she loved my work. But there are Holocaust survivors that are very sensitive
to using imagery like that in art, especially if you're not a survivor,
whether you're Jewish or not. So that's the tough field to navigate.
And I mean, it's ballsy to put swastikas in your artwork, you know,
period. So you do it, you definitely have to be prepared for the backlash for sure.
And I did get some and I was prepared for it because I did it for a reason.
(44:35):
The Watcher was intended to be a universal symbol, not a Jewish symbol.
So luckily, I haven't had to deal with too much BS for that.
Now, right now, in this moment, and with everything going on with Israel,
I have found it's been best to just be quiet because I don't have, I don't take a side.
I don't have rigid view on that subject. And that pisses off everybody.
(44:59):
A lot of staunch Zionistic stick
jews don't think i support israel enough and
a lot of not even palestinian or arab
liberals like white christian liberals who
have very little education or you know
stake in the game either you know might say i'm not
activist enough or i'm not empathetic enough or whatever i'm not really interested
(45:22):
in fighting with people on social media i got some absolutely fucking ridiculous
ridiculous crazy batshit insane dms last year when i shared very tame stuff
literally just being like.
Hey, 1,000 Jews were just murdered, program style, maybe don't inflame anti-Semitism
(45:42):
by like applauding that attack.
I wasn't saying, you know, bomb Gaza, and I love Israel.
And again, like, it shouldn't be controversial as a Jew to be like,
I believe that Israel is important for X, Y, and Z reasons.
And I also disagree with what Israel's done for X, Y, and Z reasons.
And I also believe in equal rights for the Palestinians. But like,
(46:03):
even just saying that might get me a bunch more DMs. And like,
please keep this in because I don't give a shit.
But okay, so it's really hard to navigate.
And it's made me not want to be the target anymore, because it doesn't do anything for me.
Like I'm not trying to make a career fighting with people like it's been really
disappointing to see what's happening and to not be able to really do anything,
(46:25):
even if you do speak out because your Instagram post isn't doing anything, guys.
But at the same time, you know, I would love I'd love to see more outrage for
other humanitarian crises.
I would love to see people care about people in other parts of the world or
even like people in New York that are on the side of the street.
I think it's important to keep putting good energy out. And it's certainly worth
(46:45):
the effort to try to educate people and have nuanced discussion and whatever.
But social media is not the outlet for it. I think what you just touched on is super important.
Social media posts are not going to do anything because everybody is so dug
into whatever whatever their side is, that if somebody posts something that
doesn't fit their current belief, their current narrative, they're just going to dismiss it.
(47:07):
But coming back to the art, art and storytelling is a great way to reach the
tolerance that you want, because you're not looking at somebody and saying,
you're wrong for what you believe, and I'm right for what I believe.
What you're doing is presenting a character or an image or art that is a message.
It's that character's story.
So I think that's something to consider is I really like the way that you incorporate
(47:30):
messaging in your art and I'd love to.
Personally see you continue to do that thank you yeah that is
a goal and an intention and i'm i'm
trying to reinvent the way that
i do that and the way that i did in between the first
project and and doing the watcher stuff but like i there there's there's another
development brewing but i want to take my time with it because it is you know
(47:55):
i take it really seriously you know maybe i take all of it a little too seriously
but that's the sort of art that i think you need to be very very intentional
with sort of like when you post things online,
like you should, you know, maybe think before you say some wild stuff you post,
but no, you're, you're right.
If you're saying something that carries a lot of weight, you better be prepared.
Yeah. And beyond that, it's out of your control. Like if people are pissed off
(48:17):
or don't like it or whatever, you know, that's fine.
But as long as you've set that intention and like really seen it through,
that's you, you have to do that.
And there are artists of all sorts of backgrounds and identities
or whatever that do that really beautifully so
those are all big inspirations you know well i know you got a heart
out here so yeah i gotta go to the league man i gotta go draw yeah just thank
(48:38):
you again it was a great conversation great catching up with you you know i
think the world of you so hopefully in a few months you'll have something new
out that you're looking to promote and you can come back on and tell us all
about it yeah i'd love to always a pleasure rich thank you.
Music.
Music.
(00:05):
Welcome to another episode of the State of Flux podcast. Today's guest is NYC-based
visual artist Max Kolchinski.
As you'll see when we get into how we met, Max is truly an incredible person
and one of the hardest workers I know.
It was really enlightening getting to hear his journey, and I loved getting
to dive into the highs and lows of making artwork message with him.
When you're done listening to this, I really encourage you to go check out Max's work.
(00:27):
He is so, so talented, up-and-coming guy, and I really think you're going to
love it. But anyway, let's get on with the show.
Music.
Are you ready? I think a great place to start this interview is where we met
because I can't tell you how many times I've told this story to people because
it is one of those inspiring things to me.
(00:48):
For instance, like my nephews, I tell my nephews this all the time.
My oldest nephew's sophomore in college and he's starting to look for internships
and very cool set up. And I'm like, dude, you got to just go after it.
So it was when I was running 24 West, you had reached Reached out to me on LinkedIn,
very well-written message saying how you liked what we were doing and you'd
love to buy me a cup of coffee sometime.
(01:10):
And he showed up at the office. I was expecting some 30-year-old guy.
You were like 17 years old.
You're still in high school. And the thing that blows my mind too,
you were talking about your experience in the LinkedIn message.
You had two or three great internships. You were doing artist management.
And when a 17-year-old kid walked in my door.
(01:31):
It's like, man, this kid has the brightest future of anybody I've ever talked
to because he's this young and he just gets it.
He gets the hustle, the benefits of networking.
So man, that is just a great testament to who you are.
And over the years, as you know, we've remained friends and collaborated work
together, you have lived up to every single thing that I thought you would grow into.
(01:55):
Wow, that's really sweet. Thank you.
That's Yeah, it's a special memory to look back on. And it's funny that that
was probably almost 10 years ago now.
Yeah, it's been a while. But on that topic, one thing that I think really sets
you apart in everything that you do is that hustle.
You are so great at networking and making sure you put yourself in the best position to succeed.
(02:18):
So where does that hustle come from? Have you just always been motivated?
Or is it something that you've kind of developed starting at the age of 17?
Obviously, you know? Yeah, it's tough to say.
I think a lot of it comes from my mom being very encouraging with the stuff
that I was passionate about all the way from childhood till now.
(02:39):
My childhood dream, probably from age eight or nine till probably early high
school was to be a sports broadcaster.
I grew up a diehard Yankees fan.
I would go to tons of games every year.
I was like hounding people for autographs. I think maybe that's where it started,
like the hustling for autographs and like trying to meet players and broadcasters and stuff like that.
(03:03):
And I really, even younger than 17, like probably 13.
Was building a network in that world. And I got to meet some interesting people in that world.
You know, my dream was to announce Yankee games or work at ESPN or something like that.
And I'd always been a really big music fan, I guess, you know,
kind of coming of age more in high school, it seemed and also just like playing
(03:26):
less sports as I got older and interest changing.
I think my passion was sort of more going in the creative field versus the athletic field.
And I guess, I guess, you know, broadcasting and that sort of stuff has a level
of creativity to it as well.
But once I kind of made that switch, I just started talking to people and learning
a lot, you know, collecting records around that time.
(03:47):
So that kind of informed a lot and even hustling with that a little bit,
like flipping records in high school, pay for concert tickets or like get other
records I wanted or whatever.
It's almost like each phase has kind of prepared myself for the next.
And even like now that I'm doing art full time and still navigating how to make
this a sustainable career and having to learn like this whole new set of things
(04:08):
there, I'm kind of like pulling from each previous thing that I'd done, which is a bit of a maze.
But also, you know, the journey becomes more important as I go and as I get
older, and the kind of realizing that I've been working for a long time,
like since I was a kid, basically towards things I wanted to do.
I think all of that has sort of prepared me.
But a lot of it, I think, comes from my background, like being raised with a
(04:31):
mother that encouraged me to do the things I was passionate about and going
to a small school and just like having that sort of attention from different teachers.
In particular, like some English teachers that really encouraged me to write.
And maybe that's what helped me cut through the noise on LinkedIn.
I don't think it's like a really linear path or set of skills.
And I try to be like light and refreshing to people who ask me how I've done
(04:56):
some of the stuff I've done or how to figure some of these things out,
you know, and when I met you, you were very focused on a career in the music business.
As you mentioned, now, now you're doing art.
Full time. So were you always on the side doing visual art? Or is that something
that you kind of discovered later on?
And what led to you wanting to make that transition? So it's really interesting.
(05:18):
I'll go backwards in a sec. But it's been almost two years now since I left my career in music.
And I think at various points, I've had to learn some of these more inherent
lessons of like choosing this
life path, because it is like one of the harder paths paths to go about.
And I think you have to have some level of I don't know if it's delusion or
(05:40):
like, there's something that it takes in a person to be like,
yeah, I could be an artist, like, actually not just making art,
but like, I could be an artist.
And I think when I look back, I've been doing it my whole life without realizing
and then at the points in those moments in my teen years,
or like early college years, just sort of having a self taught background not
(06:01):
like an art school background or like a specialized education or anything like that in the arts.
I think I'd always been fighting against my lack of foundational skills or education in that world.
So now like understanding that more, I realize that there's just been so much
self-imposed suffering of, I really want to do this.
(06:22):
I really want to make this, but I have no idea how to do it.
So I'm just going to try to figure it out as I go and like try to,
you know, know, put one foot in front of the of the last.
So truly, I think I've been an artist my whole life when I really think about it.
I think the the real beginnings like beyond, you know, taking.
Classes in school or like at the JCC or whatever,
(06:44):
like doing creative things as a kid, and even like making mixtapes on my cassette
player and like burning CDs and stuff like that in my childhood,
I think the real entry point for me was probably Photoshop in like middle school, high school.
In the art class at my school, there were computers that had Photoshop and I
was really interested in making album covers basically and essentially fan art
(07:05):
for like unreleased compilations of artists I liked because I had my iTunes super organized,
you know, and even doing like alternate artworks for like mixtapes that would
come out and stuff like that.
I was really interested in it, but I didn't know that I was so interested in
it because it had that music footing in it.
So I started there and probably like end of high school, beginning of college,
I really felt like I was reaching a point of, I guess like being in the know
(07:29):
or like having like a tastemaker angle with like, with music.
But that came, especially at that time, which is, you know, like 2014, 15, 16.
There was like this huge element of fashion and street wear and
you know sort of the beginnings of social media
trends and stuff like that and i was working at major
record labels at the time kind of learning that world so i
(07:52):
really had a strong desire to dress really cool and go to a lot of shows rub
shoulders with people i wanted to design and screen print t-shirts because you
know that's what every long island kid who listens to pop wants to do that paired
with the photoshop experience kind of led me to take a few classes in college.
So I did a screen printing course, which was really fun and really challenging.
(08:14):
I did a graphic design course and a photography course.
And it was sort of in that screen printing class that I stumbled into being
an artist, like actually owning it and being like, Oh, wow, I have this concept,
I figured out like a way to visually communicate an idea that is very multi
pronged, or like, you know, goes a lot deeper beneath the surface of this like very minimal design.
(08:38):
And once I unlocked that and did it, I opened up a lot, but it still took me
a bunch of time to really put myself out there and work in other mediums and challenge myself.
I think I'm really at the beginnings of going all the way back and filling in
the gap with the education and with some of that stuff,
because I've kind of just been self-taught figuring it out for a few years to
(09:01):
some success and like and a lot of fulfillment, but also struggling through
it a lot of steps of the way.
And now I'm kind of going back, which takes a lot to do, but I'm excited to see where that takes me.
And yeah, that might have been a really long winded answer, but.
This happens a lot when I do these interviews, but there's like five different
things that I was like, I want to hear more about this on this.
(09:21):
So that's a good thing. But one of those things is you bring up an interesting
point in that you're self-taught.
I think it's a generational thing.
I'm a little older than you, but I'm the same way. I started playing in bands.
That was my intro into the creative world.
I took piano and jazz guitar in college. But before I started doing that,
I wanted to learn how to play.
So I was looking up tabs online and trying to figure it it out that way,
(09:45):
you know, and then every creative thing I've done, whether it's learning to
be a better writer, learning about Photoshop and Lightroom, photography is a huge passion of mine.
I've never taken a photography class, but I've probably watched 1000 hours of YouTube tutorials.
And this is what I'm curious about. A lot of the reasons why I went the self
taught route was because I didn't think I was good enough to be in those classes.
(10:06):
I wasn't confident in my ability. Yeah, percent.
I think that's a huge thing that a lot of people tell themselves.
That's like a deep-seated fear that prevents you
from just taking that step for sure i realized recently i
started taking drawing classes at the art students league this year and just
showing up registering for that first month and like committing to it and showing
(10:27):
up every day was a huge step even more so than drawing improving and seeing
where that leads like just i think that step for myself was probably the biggest
part and it's a little cliche but it's so true.
I don't think I realized how afraid I was until I walked in and did it.
It's funny. I feel like every creative person that I know, no matter their talent
level, or you'd say the same thing about successful people.
(10:48):
Everybody has some level of imposter syndrome. Yeah.
And I'm sure it's healthy. Because if you were to just sit there and think you're
the greatest thing already,
what's going to push you to get better, but it seems to be like a
really common thing with successful people or artists
or anybody doing something that is a little less path of least resistance yeah
for sure when you talk to people that you admire and hear it there is that level
(11:12):
of sort of reassurance and you feel a little comforted by it but you're also
like fuck if this person feels that way you know yeah it's a it's a process man.
So another thing that you mentioned there was continuing education as an artist,
you're filling in the gaps in your foundation to kind of make up for the fact
that you're self taught.
Are you making a lot of realizations of Oh, shit, I should have been doing that
(11:33):
a lot differently? Or is it more just kind of knowledge gaining?
I think it's both the first thing you said about sort of re approaching and
seeing a transformation in your own work.
I think I'm giving myself a lot of time and like room to let that happen.
Naturally, my inclination would be to come home from class and like try painting
differently or to try to incorporate it straight away.
(11:54):
But I know that I still have a bit of room to grow. So I'm kind of giving that space.
And I know sometime, you know, this year, whenever I'll see that progression,
like in my paintings and stuff, but I'm still I'm also still working on projects
that I haven't finished yet, and that I'd started before starting the course.
So I kind of want to see those things through before I completely switch things
(12:15):
up or like or really show that jump in things. But the experience has been incredible.
I mean, like I said, even just for myself to push myself through something that
I was subconsciously so opposed to, and like giving myself all these excuses
to not do has been really transformative.
Just seeing the progress from day one, week one, and you know,
(12:36):
the first few weeks to now, because I'm still doing it. It's pretty crazy.
And I don't know if I made this analogy to you, but I've been kind of sharing
this with different friends that I've been talking about the class,
it's kind of like going to the gym where it's like, it's so much about repetition
and just showing up and like, you're not gonna have a great day every day.
And you're not gonna feel super motivated or like feel physically or mentally
or emotionally your best, you know, you might hate what you did,
(12:58):
or but it's so important to show up and do the reps.
And then you see it pay off pretty quickly, but relatively, and yeah,
it's definitely it's opened me up in a lot of ways, even just generally,
like in a sense of curiosity and optimism.
And like, I feel now Now, I don't feel bogged down by how much there is to learn
or how many gaps there are to go fill in my lack of formal education.
(13:21):
And it's almost like, wow, there's so much that's in spell. And I
yeah, I want to go learn all that stuff or, you know, whatever I can.
And at the same time, I just this weekend, I just took my first lesson in stained glass making.
There's an artist, a really talented artist in Brooklyn, who does one on one sessions.
And I did my first one with her recently, just kind of learned in a very simplified
(13:43):
design and scale and everything.
Like this is how you kind of do a whole piece in like a couple hours.
And I have a few things I I want to make so that that first design that I want
to do, like we're going to work on it together and see how that goes over the next couple months.
But that's something that I really wanted to do for a long time.
And I don't think I realized it until probably last year.
(14:05):
But that's another thing where it's like, you know, just even like going on
a trip last year, and like seeing a bunch of stained glass kind of brought that
to the forefront of my brain where I was like, Oh, wait, I actually always really
wanted to do this. And it's not impossible.
I'm in New York, I'm sure there's somebody that could help teach me.
And the same goes with Art Students League. It's a pretty low barrier to entry
to learn creative skills versus
(14:29):
going for an MFA or paying someone to take one-on-one lessons or whatever.
So even though it's not the smallest first step, taking that small first step
has really unlocked a lot.
I'm very excited, but also unlike myself, I'm feeling patient about how this
is going to cultivate into new things.
It's already been really rewarding. If you could go back, would you prefer to go the way you did?
(14:51):
Or would you rather take a more structured educational approach to art?
Because on one side, there is so much value to the education and the training and everything.
But there is so much that probably makes what you do and your art unique to
you because you're self taught.
So yeah, I think that's a part of it.
And also my experience leading into this path is quite unique.
(15:13):
I don't think I answered one of your questions earlier what wanted
me to make that switch and a lot of it was the nft
boom of the last few years and just
in a really brief synopsis like i got into that stuff during
covid in 2020 i started keeping up with all that and learning about it i started
collecting like very inexpensive but very cool things that i thought i wanted
(15:36):
to collect and i had a bunch of artists friends who were doing it and seeing
success with their work and that led to me connecting with more people and
helping people out and all that sort of stuff.
And then eventually selling my art for the first time through that mechanism.
And then that kind of gave me some sort of confidence that like,
I could do this because I was selling paintings and selling drawings and digital pieces and stuff.
(16:00):
I think, you know, if things went differently, and in high school,
I was like, Oh, I want to pursue art. And I went to like some sort of MFA program or whatever.
I don't think I would have really pursued any of that stuff,
because it's very, or at least at the beginning, I think it was very against
the grain traditional art world.
And I don't think I would have really found what interested me on my own necessarily.
(16:21):
There are a few things visually that...
Are interesting to me that even from like my
really really terrible early drawings
and paintings there's a through line from that stuff
to what i'm doing now and i'm sure for a while it'll
be that way some of these themes or motifs you know i
i don't really have a desire to go back in time and radically
(16:42):
change things i really try not to live with any sort of
regret but i i do especially in this experience taking
classes at the league and feeling very gassed
on learning things and like trying new things
i do wish that i'd started earlier because i think
it would have only helped me more in those challenges
and periods i think that's what this time is for now and
(17:05):
luckily i'm in a place where i have enough stability financially i can take
this time to sort of incubate and learn and before i feel this insane pressure
to sell work or figure out what my commercial breakthrough is going to be and
it's sort of funny a lot of the biggest artists that you could think of music, you know, art,
film, whatever, when you really think about your favorite, they all have,
(17:29):
or most really, some people get very lucky very early in their careers or in
their practices, a lot of the greats have these formative early periods where
they're learning and they're experimenting and whatever,
and then something just sticks like the Murakami flower causes figure.
Whatever, like those sorts of things that become this commercial iconography
that it's almost like a cross or a Star of David where it's Yeah, it's a Murakami flower.
(17:53):
Of course, I'm gonna buy that $80 t shirt.
I was joking with a friend of mine last week going in and like drawing nude
models every day is great. My fun, like weird figurative paintings are great.
Maybe in my 30s, I'll figure out what my sellout moment is going to be that may or may not happen.
But I really would like it to be built on something and
to like be a person that kind of knows to an extent what
(18:13):
to do with that sort of pressure and that was always something that
i talked about with the artists i worked with in my music business
career you don't just want your first song to pop off
and then you have no idea how to follow it up or you have no idea how to
perform on stage or whatever like you do really want
this to be built on something even though i've been doing this for
almost two years i don't think there's like an amount of time or a specific
(18:34):
way or rhyme or reason that prepares someone for that or gets them to that point
so i'm trying to be a little bit bit more patient than I would tend to be or
a little bit more easy on myself with some of this stuff because that really
harsh self-critic is something I do too.
I think every creative person has some of that along with the imposter syndrome.
Maybe they're best friends, but I think it's important to just try not to force
(18:56):
things and let them happen and accept that like, yeah, I didn't go to art school.
That doesn't need to stop me.
You mentioned patience again, which is obviously one of the most important lessons
for anybody, whether they're in a creative space or not. You you need patience
in life to be successful.
So what do you do to help kind of harness that patience? Like,
how'd you develop it in yourself? Was it just a realization?
(19:18):
Or did you work at it? I haven't, honestly, I mean, with these bigger picture
things, I think it's just trying to be a little bit more present.
And in the moment with what you're doing now, which is a muscle I'm working to exercise every day.
Yeah, I started the artist way through your recommendation. I have it here.
And this was my second day of doing the morning pages.
(19:38):
I think a lot of it is just trying to be present and like just
in general in whatever way you can take life slow and
most days that i get out of my drawing class i've been
pretty exhausted and it's been hard to work on paintings or like it's been hard
to just exert a lot of mental energy into stuff aside from maybe like djing
because i'm doing it really just for myself and to enjoy it just trying to like
(20:00):
find little bits of peace so that when i start thinking far ahead i'm like actually
all I need to do today is do my morning pages,
talk to Rich, go to class, you know, do that sort of stuff.
Because it's easy to think really far ahead and be hard on yourself and not
be satisfied with where you're at, or, you know, want more.
I think that's like every person in every creative field, it's like always on
(20:23):
to the next thing, or it's always about like the next stage or wanting more.
Like I said, luckily, I'm in a phase where like, I don't feel huge amounts of
pressure to to have everything figured out, but in like three years, I probably will.
So I know that I just need to like work hard right now. So that hopefully at
that point I can sort of have it figured out, you know?
(20:43):
You just brought up another great point. And it's something that I've been thinking
about a lot lately, when you said for most creative people, the mentality is kind of on to the next.
Do you think that's just a trait of creativity and ambition?
Or do you think that's something that our society is kind of pushing on artists
now because of the way we treat art and entertainment as disposable?
(21:05):
I think it's a bit of both.
I think the pressure and the desire to kind of keep up with everyone and,
you know, be able to flex like the latest project you're doing or whatever.
I think a lot of that is societal.
But I mean, even in my interest in art history is limited because I really lean
towards the things I like and I don't really study the stuff I don't like as
(21:27):
much, which is something I need to work on.
But in this class that my instructor has really been talking a lot about,
like the masters and Leonardo and, you know, people whose work are great and have informed so much.
But like, I don't really sit around and like look at Renaissance era art all the time.
But those guys really made a lot of stuff and really pushed themselves and did
these things that are really hard to imagine even doing now.
(21:50):
So with that sort of limited technology and limited amounts of color and tools.
It's pretty incredible. So I think some of it is inherent to creativity and
ambition and wanting to create things that you want to see in the world.
But I think a lot of the pressure and like needing to keep up and posture in
different ways, like a lot of that's societal.
And a lot of my artist friends who are not the most content inclined and really
(22:16):
have very little interest in becoming influencers or becoming celebrities,
is but really just want to create and want their work
to be seen and want to connect with people and and really
just live moderately successful lives maybe shown in galleries or maybe have
successful products or whatever but not necessarily post every day or you know
have millions of people watching them those people really just want to make
(22:37):
stuff and share it and sell it or whatever a lot of my friends who are built
that way like really just want to draw really just want to paint.
And not that many of them want to do all this other shit. And you could kind
of see the difference in approach to the work itself from the people that are
kind of more influencers than artists.
And I try not to say that with any sort of negativity or judgment,
(23:00):
but I'm more in the camp of like being interested in the work than in the appearance
of it after years of being in that scene, whether it was the music industry scene,
which is very cloud driven in the NFT
space for a majority of that the various hype
cycles I think were driven by wow that sort of stuff
and it doesn't really interest me it's hard to say humbly
(23:21):
so I apologize if I sound like a bit of a douchebag but
I you know I have friends that are really successful I've made connections and
worked with people who I admire and like who I think are great and that you
know random people or friends of mine that aren't from these circles are like
wow that's so cool you're friends with this person I don't get excited by the
allure of it I'm just I admire admire people who I admire and,
(23:42):
you know, art that I admire, whatever.
And it's all kind of on an equal footing. I don't support one friend more because
they're friends with this celebrity or they're in this gallery or whatever.
In these sorts of worlds and circles, it becomes apparent where people's intentions are.
And I think as long as you just know where yours are and you work towards those
things, that's what counts.
(24:02):
And it's hard not to sound bitter or not to judge people in the other camp.
But I've really more recently just tried distance myself for a minute and towards
the stuff I do care about rather than exist in those spaces and feel not great about it.
Because then you start to lose sight of your priorities or just I think like
comparing yourself to other people can't really help much. But it's it's a bit of a minefield, man.
(24:24):
There's no guarantee that you know, hard work or consistency will lead to success.
But try your hardest and try to make what you can with what you've got.
What you just said there about the the people you surround yourself with is super important.
Because personally, I grew up on the hardcore and punk and heavy music scene here on Long Island.
I say this all the time, the only reason I found any level of success in a field
(24:49):
where it's really hard to find success.
And there's a million people that start out wanting to do it,
and then very few of those continue into it as a career.
A lot of that I attribute to what I learned on that scene.
The whole DIY ethics and don't think about, am I going to get on MTV as a band?
I just want to write songs on my guitar, play with my friends,
(25:11):
and play to a room of 10 people in a VFW hall.
And that's fun, and I enjoy that. I think if you look across most movements
and successful creative people, you see that they usually come from a specific
scene, whether it's a punk hardcore scene in music or New York City in the 80s.
I feel like you have that the people you met largely through NFTs, right?
(25:34):
Yeah, it opened up my world to a lot of visual artists.
It is very DIY mentality. And it's a lot of self taught artists.
It's a lot of people that have hustled their way into success and sort of figuring
things out as they went through that I found a lot of people that inspired inspired
me to want more for myself as an artist and like to pursue it seriously and all that sort of stuff.
(25:55):
Yeah, I know the market is rebounding a little bit now.
But a lot of those people made a decent amount of money for those couple of
years. They're obviously continuing on as artists.
I don't know how many of your friends came from that world beforehand or if
NFTs was a gateway to a little bit of success for them.
But was it helpful for you and all that whole group of artists that you navigated
(26:15):
the web three scene with to have to kind of transition back into a more traditional
model to continue to find success?
Yes and no for different people. I think because times were so good for a while
there, everyone in different forms and on different levels kind of over leveraged themselves.
Like whether it was attention and time or literally money or assets or whatever.
(26:38):
I think it's been really good for me because it's forced me to kind of face
these challenges head on and want to learn more and grow and all that sort of stuff.
I have a lot of friends that are struggling financially. So I wouldn't say that
it's really been great for that.
Maybe spiritually or like in terms of creative journey, perhaps.
But some people that I'm friendly with in the space had some success either
(27:01):
in the traditional art world, not many, but some a little bit,
or in kind of DIY downtown New York type of art scenes.
And some as designers or creative agencies, I see some people that have complete
separate careers from their art who are going to be fine.
So it's a bit of a spectrum. I think it's been harder on some than others.
And also some artists had a lot of success playing the NFT market,
(27:24):
you know, essentially like day trading while also doing their thing.
And some people made better decisions than others in that world.
So some people, you know, have some cushion with that stuff.
Some don't. Some people did their taxes the way that they should.
Some people didn't. I think it's like anything else, you know.
And yeah, things are sort of rebounding again. I've been a bit more removed from the space.
(27:45):
Like I still definitely have a foot in and I, you know, it means a lot to me
and it really did change my life in a lot of ways, even if it hasn't like continued
to just be like high rolling times.
But yeah, I think it'll continue to morph and ebb and flow.
And I don't know how much of it will be sort of traditional art or,
you know, like 2D art and how much of it is going to be more metaverse based
(28:06):
or, you know, gaming or whatever other sort of content.
But it's a weird space it's a weird
market driven space and i think a lot of people pretended
to care about the art and a lot of people convinced themselves
that people cared about the art that me being one
of them you know and then a lot of collectors or curators or platforms or whatever
(28:27):
you know we're very clearly in a play the market and we know what happened to
the market so i think it really remains to be seen like what that means for
artists but the people who have continued to do stuff are going to continue on that path.
I don't know so many people have like given up on making art.
But you know, when you don't have that steady income, I have friends that are
taking up service jobs or have to do like creative things and fields that they
(28:51):
hate, or, you know, making things that they don't like, because they need to pay bills,
the fallout of that tippy top profit bull market.
It's been tough for pretty much everybody, even the really successful artists
staying on web three and blockchain for a little bit.
I don't think we're ever going to see like like a bull rush on PFP projects again.
But I do think the blockchain is going to be one of the most important innovations in history.
(29:16):
And I think from an NFT perspective, I think that just being able to use blockchain for...
Authenticating, it's going to be huge as well, which not to pat you on the back again.
But you know, I feel like that was always kind of your approach to NFTs anyway,
with your art was you were doing actual physical paintings, and including the NFT with that work.
(29:37):
Is that something that you think is even as this market? Is it what it used to be?
If you're working on a piece of art? Are you still attaching it to the blockchain?
Or are you past that for now? Yeah, it depends.
Like I I haven't really minted anything in a while.
It's definitely been several months. I found that many collectors in the space
(29:57):
don't really care that much about the physical work.
Interestingly enough, for an artist that mainly makes physical work,
there are still a couple of pieces that I sold for good money.
It's surprising that people don't want the painting. So I'm still holding onto a couple.
It's very individual what people
are interested in and why they buy these things in in the first place.
And they're definitely people that wanted to hang things on their wall.
(30:18):
And that's why they bought them in the first place.
And I think maybe some people just believed in me or wanted to support me or
found out about me through another artist or saw me in a show or whatever.
But that was always Yeah, definitely one of the more important things to me
connecting these physical digital worlds in real life experiences like galleries
or parties or things like that.
Those were always the brighter moments of the more interesting experiences and
(30:42):
making making friends that maybe never even bought my art or never really liked it or whatever.
But kind of having those exchanges, I do miss that a bit.
I think that has been one of the harder or like more disappointing results of
everything coming down to earth a bit.
There's less of that. And the events that do happen are different.
(31:02):
I think in the future, I'll admit if someone buys a painting,
especially if it's like thousands of dollars, like,
totally augmented for them if they wanted it but my my head
hasn't been there too much recently and i've also i think
as i've kind of worked on different projects i realized that like
maybe some things are more for this crowd and other
things are more for another crowd like there's a project sort
(31:22):
of in progress right now that i've kind of kept in
mind as like something i can do digitally there's a
physical component but it would be like interesting digitally and
there might be some more interest for a lot
of people to like have a copy of this digitally and then
there's like one really special physical connected to it
so yeah we'll see another patience thing and
(31:43):
and it's a good time too to either like go all in
and and like mint a bunch of shit and like see what
works there are all these different trends like with bitcoin ordinals and
a lot of people are minting on solana again and i'm like in the
know enough to kind of know the trends that are going on and like the
artists that are doing stuff and like what is working and
what's not but like when i see some of the projects on bitcoin or
(32:04):
in solana i'm like this art is is garbage i don't
really want to put my stuff next to the stuff and it's
it's a lot like that pfp trend where i think people are just
trying to be early what i was trying to say is i think it's a good time to either
try a bunch of shit see what sticks build another market or another collector
base around the trends or watch it moderately the way i have and sort of in
the back of your mind okay this is like what i'm interested in what i want to
(32:26):
do and when there's that convergence of like this is what's working in the market
and this is what i want to do then and I'll put it out.
You know, from our friendship origin story that you're a hustler,
obviously, you're putting a lot of work in your art, and you're very talented.
So what are some of the things that you think are key to building a career as a visual artist?
Well, I appreciate the compliments. I'm still figuring it out, man.
(32:48):
I think there's like infinite things to figure out and sort of learn and apply and practice.
But first and foremost, like you should really only Only do it if you really
want it and you're absolutely prepared for a lot of ups and downs.
And I think that's something I was prepared for in my time in the music business
because there are lots of ups and downs in it.
(33:10):
But the difference is there aren't a team of executives and lawyers telling
you you can't do shit all the time. It's kind of choose your own adventure.
There might be money or galleries or different roadblocks that get in your way
from doing something the way you want to. But ultimately, it all falls on you
because you're the artist, it's your career, you got to figure it out.
(33:30):
And with NFTs, or, you know, even just the internet in general,
there are ways to kind of circumvent all of these players that could sort of
gatekeep you or whatever.
So, you know, I think I think you first and foremost, you need to like really want it and be prepared.
To fail and to have a hard time for the first however
long you'll hear often stories of artists
(33:51):
and actors and musicians that don't have their big
break or don't have any sort of success until they're like 50 60
you know so i guess like kind of expect that
that like you're not gonna get into
a museum for like decades probably if that's one
of your goals or you know a commercial gallery or whatever you
know whether it's visual art or music or whatever so
(34:12):
much of what interests people in creative things
are stories so whether it's literally your personal
story or the story you're trying to convey with your
work you should really have something strong there and
it doesn't have to be so obvious or so explained but when
you look at something you can kind of tell if there's more
beneath the surface or not and we're past
(34:35):
the point of copying artists from the 80s and
90s and that being interesting or or any era
for that matter even if you are very inspired by ex-artists to
at least put three to ten percent of your own spin on it
so there's something that could appeal to someone so they wouldn't just go look
at you know a warhol book or whatever the theory of creative surprise are you
(34:55):
familiar with it creative surprise no can you explain it not creative what's
the term familiar surprise maybe it's familiar surprise so okay i know this
really smart man named David Rosen.
His training is in neuroscience.
I guess you just say he is a scientist, lifelong musician.
It's familiar surprise is the term, by the way. But he dedicated years to figuring
(35:18):
out what makes people enjoy music.
And what he learned is it has to be familiar enough for it to be comfortable
for people to listen to it.
But with enough of a a twist on it that it doesn't make somebody say,
oh, I've already heard this, you know? Yeah, the familiarity is inviting.
And then the surprise is the hook. Exactly. Yeah. So I think that's a part of
(35:41):
it is like having that balance.
And I know you got to get out of here in a little bit, but there is one other
thing that I wanted to bring up here.
And that's you have a lot of messaging in your art.
You know, obviously, a lot of that you want to leave up to interpretation,
but how you would describe the messaging in your art and what your experience
(36:01):
has been getting it out there in the world.
I think the most obvious one would be the watcher symbol that I designed probably
a bit over two years ago now.
The sort of inspiration to create a symbol that, again, has some familiarity,
but some uniqueness to it.
And even just in of itself, creating a symbol that could be easily recognizable
(36:23):
and sort of identifiable as a tag or, you know, something that that kind of
associates with me or with an idea.
I think a lot of that I realized later on subconsciously really had to do with
my first art project that I ever shared, which was a little over five years ago.
That was sort of what I worked on in that screen printing class I mentioned earlier.
(36:43):
And it's worth touching on, not going too deep into.
That project was called Good Luck. That was sort of college-aged Max coming
to terms with all these crazy things going on in the world in 2017.
So, this is like, you know, post-Trump election in the midst of a Jewish man in New York City.
(37:04):
Noticing a lot of antisemitism on college campuses and literally seeing a swastika
etched into a desk in my school and seeing a lot of stuff online and coming
from a relatively religious Jewish background and going to a Jewish school growing up,
feeling very disturbed by that
and kind of surprised because I didn't experience that so much growing up.
(37:27):
And I realized that there There was so much power and fear baked into iconography
and symbols and particularly the swastika in this case.
It forced me to kind of approach it. Like one day I was just like,
all right, like I need to learn why I'm so afraid of these lines.
You know, it's such an absurd thing to even put it that way.
(37:48):
But it's true. You're literally afraid of lines. What's this about?
You know, learning the origins in a very elementary manner, like Wikipedia and
like a few articles maybe. maybe.
And I think I read part of a book about it. Learning that the origins of the
swastika go way back and really have the complete opposite meaning than what
the Nazis intended and it really being about good luck and good fortune and all of that,
(38:13):
it immediately clicked in my head when I read the words good luck,
because probably one of the most famous Jewish exports of all time is the phrase mazel tov.
And the definition of mazel tov is good luck.
It's actually not not congratulations, like a lot of people think,
because we say it at, you know, big life events or whatever.
Which I also think is a very Jewish
thing, you know, to like celebrate something and be like, good luck.
(38:36):
So once I made that connection, it was this really profound juxtaposition of
the thing that every modern Jew fears the most being really the same as this
phrase that we say all the time, like in a really positive light.
And that made me want to sort of flip the script and and put them next to each
other, which is what I did in that design on the poster that I screen printed.
(38:57):
And then so there was a lot of swastikas for like a year or two.
There were a lot of a lot of looking for them, them coming to me,
which, you know, no person should really wish for producing a lot of them,
which is a very bizarre thing as a Jewish person.
And it connected me to, you know, different artists and different interesting
people that saw something in it And we're like, wow, like conceptually, this is really strong.
(39:21):
And, you know, some of the stuff that I made to complement that design,
you know, now when I look back on it, some of it wasn't that great or could
have used some rewrites or some tweaks or whatever.
But it is still something I'm very proud of. And it's foundational to me wanting to do art.
It was like sort of making art as a means to express things that otherwise wouldn't.
Get really lost in Instagram captions or even conversations oftentimes,
(39:44):
because for whatever reason, it's very polarizing to be a Jewish person.
This even goes without talking about Israel or whatever.
That stayed with me for a long time. You know, I showed it to people a little over five years ago.
And then I started painting more and doing kind of more figurative stuff and abstract stuff.
And I really wanted to have some sort of tag or symbol or like something thing
(40:05):
that I could just draw that encapsulated a lot of this, but I didn't know how.
And another symbol that really came to me, kind of the opposite of the swastika
in a way, like I just kind of found myself interested in it all of a sudden
after seeing it for so many years, was the hamsa, sort of like the hand,
you know, like with the evil eye, and it's supposed to protect you and guide you and stuff like that.
(40:27):
That became really interesting to me, probably like the summer of 2021,
as I was working on different pieces.
And I actually made a piece that sort of recontextualized that poster that I'd
made two, three years before.
So I think there was just a lot going on in the back of my mind that I didn't realize.
And I started drawing the Hamsa in like a really simple way and like trying
(40:47):
to design it in a way that was very minimalist and modern and sort of easy to
repeat and easy to copy and whatever.
And those were sort of the beginnings of the Watcher symbol.
That's what I wound up calling it was the Watcher.
Because it sort of looks like an eye, it sort of looks like a hand.
And it does, to me, it represents a lot of the things of the Hamsa.
But to other people, it kind of looks like a jellyfish or a UFO or a basketball hoop.
(41:13):
I've heard some really interesting things, which is super cool. I love that.
So I try not to overdefine it. But I think it is interesting to know the origins
and to know the intentions.
Because the intention of the symbol is anti-hate symbol.
It's supposed to be like the opposite of how you feel when you see a swastika, essentially.
There's a through line through all the work. and a lot of it is about individual
versus collective and sort of like place in the world and I mean identity is
(41:38):
baked into all of it but it's a little bit less obvious I think than what
I was in college and sort of being a super lib and, you know,
like trying to make such grand activist statements with everything that I made.
But yeah, I do agree that it is
really important to make something that at least means something to you.
Not every artist needs to be a social activist or, you know,
(42:01):
even pretend to be because a lot of artists aren't interested in that or don't
really want to make work about that. And I don't think anyone should be forced to.
But even the The Murakami flower has to have some sort of meaning or some sort
of origin story that means something to him.
Otherwise, he wouldn't want to be making it for so long. I want to focus a little
bit on the watcher symbol and the call out of anti-Semitism.
(42:25):
Because for me personally, and this is so stupid, and it's something I shouldn't be thinking about.
If I'm going to post something on threads or Instagram, I think to myself,
oh, no, that's too catalytic.
I don't want to deal with people being annoyed with me saying this.
And who am I to say this? And obviously, when you're putting out work that you
put legitimate effort into,
not just an Instagram post, and you're putting it out there as a representation
(42:47):
of yourself to do so covering a topic that's so catalytic really runs the risk
of, you know, there are a lot of assholes out there who are going to look at
that and be like, this is somebody that we should be targeting.
Like we should hurt this person. Yeah. So did you have any hesitancy or fear
when you were going to come out publicly and tackle such a catalytic issue? you?
Yes and no. So here's the thing. I want to start here.
(43:10):
Anti-Semitism shouldn't be a catalytic issue. It is, but it shouldn't be in
the way that like speaking out against racism or hatred towards Native Americans
or Asian or gay people or trans people,
like none of these things should be catalytic because everybody should just
accept that there are people that do things differently and like have different
experiences or whatever.
(43:31):
That's kind of ground floor. If people can't meet I don't really give a shit about their opinion.
That's where I start in terms of like the early work, the good luck stuff and the swastikas.
The people who were most offended and most disturbed by it, for the most part, were Jewish people.
And I kind of expected that once I was starting it and once I was starting to
(43:52):
show it to people. And it comes with the territory.
I wasn't trying to inflame anything or hurt anyone.
So I think once I was able to have conversations with Jewish folks that were
offended by it, they were able to see that. It's all very subjective.
There's a friend of mine, And an artist who I became friendly with kind of through
some of these circles was a Holocaust survivor.
(44:13):
And she loved my work. But there are Holocaust survivors that are very sensitive
to using imagery like that in art, especially if you're not a survivor,
whether you're Jewish or not. So that's the tough field to navigate.
And I mean, it's ballsy to put swastikas in your artwork, you know,
period. So you do it, you definitely have to be prepared for the backlash for sure.
And I did get some and I was prepared for it because I did it for a reason.
(44:35):
The Watcher was intended to be a universal symbol, not a Jewish symbol.
So luckily, I haven't had to deal with too much BS for that.
Now, right now, in this moment, and with everything going on with Israel,
I have found it's been best to just be quiet because I don't have, I don't take a side.
I don't have rigid view on that subject. And that pisses off everybody.
(44:59):
A lot of staunch Zionistic stick
jews don't think i support israel enough and
a lot of not even palestinian or arab
liberals like white christian liberals who
have very little education or you know
stake in the game either you know might say i'm not
activist enough or i'm not empathetic enough or whatever i'm not really interested
(45:22):
in fighting with people on social media i got some absolutely fucking ridiculous
ridiculous crazy batshit insane dms last year when i shared very tame stuff
literally just being like.
Hey, 1,000 Jews were just murdered, program style, maybe don't inflame anti-Semitism
(45:42):
by like applauding that attack.
I wasn't saying, you know, bomb Gaza, and I love Israel.
And again, like, it shouldn't be controversial as a Jew to be like,
I believe that Israel is important for X, Y, and Z reasons.
And I also disagree with what Israel's done for X, Y, and Z reasons.
And I also believe in equal rights for the Palestinians. But like,
(46:03):
even just saying that might get me a bunch more DMs. And like,
please keep this in because I don't give a shit.
But okay, so it's really hard to navigate.
And it's made me not want to be the target anymore, because it doesn't do anything for me.
Like I'm not trying to make a career fighting with people like it's been really
disappointing to see what's happening and to not be able to really do anything,
(46:25):
even if you do speak out because your Instagram post isn't doing anything, guys.
But at the same time, you know, I would love I'd love to see more outrage for
other humanitarian crises.
I would love to see people care about people in other parts of the world or
even like people in New York that are on the side of the street.
I think it's important to keep putting good energy out. And it's certainly worth
(46:45):
the effort to try to educate people and have nuanced discussion and whatever.
But social media is not the outlet for it. I think what you just touched on is super important.
Social media posts are not going to do anything because everybody is so dug
into whatever whatever their side is, that if somebody posts something that
doesn't fit their current belief, their current narrative, they're just going to dismiss it.
(47:07):
But coming back to the art, art and storytelling is a great way to reach the
tolerance that you want, because you're not looking at somebody and saying,
you're wrong for what you believe, and I'm right for what I believe.
What you're doing is presenting a character or an image or art that is a message.
It's that character's story.
So I think that's something to consider is I really like the way that you incorporate
(47:30):
messaging in your art and I'd love to.
Personally see you continue to do that thank you yeah that is
a goal and an intention and i'm i'm
trying to reinvent the way that
i do that and the way that i did in between the first
project and and doing the watcher stuff but like i there there's there's another
development brewing but i want to take my time with it because it is you know
(47:55):
i take it really seriously you know maybe i take all of it a little too seriously
but that's the sort of art that i think you need to be very very intentional
with sort of like when you post things online,
like you should, you know, maybe think before you say some wild stuff you post,
but no, you're, you're right.
If you're saying something that carries a lot of weight, you better be prepared.
Yeah. And beyond that, it's out of your control. Like if people are pissed off
(48:17):
or don't like it or whatever, you know, that's fine.
But as long as you've set that intention and like really seen it through,
that's you, you have to do that.
And there are artists of all sorts of backgrounds and identities
or whatever that do that really beautifully so
those are all big inspirations you know well i know you got a heart
out here so yeah i gotta go to the league man i gotta go draw yeah just thank
(48:38):
you again it was a great conversation great catching up with you you know i
think the world of you so hopefully in a few months you'll have something new
out that you're looking to promote and you can come back on and tell us all
about it yeah i'd love to always a pleasure rich thank you.
Music.
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