Inside the Democrat Machine — Why Former Insider Lisa Ekman Walked Away - Stay in the Fray Podcast

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
He asked me, you know, do you think all Republicans are
racist? And without even really missing
a beat, I said in my brain literally broke.
And I couldn't think my way out of it, couldn't come up with an
answer. I couldn't figure out a way that

(00:20):
it could be true that these agencies actually truly care
about my health and are doing are not captured by industry and
aren't doing what you know the people with the most money want
and are doing what is best for our health.
How did you get in through the Democratic Party into the
government? What did you do there?
And then kind of that moment where you started to see things

(00:43):
a little differently. Sure.
So. Welcome to Stay in the Fray
podcast. I'm your host, Ryan.
This is where headlines get hit hard, hypocracy gets shredded,
and the absurd are laughed at. If you want comfort, this isn't

(01:05):
your place. If you want blunt and
unfiltered, I'm your guy. Join me in the Fray, all you.
Need to do is just. Listen up, guy.
Hey, guys, excited to have a guest here with us today for
this episode. My guest did something that not

(01:26):
a lot of people do in politics once they've kind of implanted
themselves, which is she changedher mind.
This is Lisa Ekman. She spent years inside the
Democratic machine on Capitol Hill.
She watched this this shift that's happening in real time,
and then she eventually walked away from it.

(01:47):
So, oh, then she wrote a book. By the way, Lisa, thank you so
much. I'm.
I'm looking forward to this conversation.
I've been waiting all week for it.
So how are you? I am doing great, thank you.
It is a pleasure to be here and I appreciate you taking the time
to have a conversation with me of.
Course, right off the bat, the book is called, I'll Say It 16
Times for you, deprogramming Democrats and uneducating the

(02:11):
elites, correct? And we'll get, I'll have all the
links out everywhere, but we'll,we'll get to that.
We'll get to that. Let's let's, let's get this out
of the way. Tell me about how you got to
capital. How, how did you get in through
the Democratic Party into the government?
What did you do there? And then kind of that moment
where you started to see things a little differently.

(02:32):
Sure. So I'll do this briefly because
I think there's a lot we can diginto.
I spent more than 20 years in Washington, DC as a Democratic
advocate and lobbyist focusing on disability policy.
I worked to make the federal programs and federal laws more
supportive of people with disabilities, which meant I was

(02:52):
nonpartisan, ostensibly, but we worked most with the Democrats
because we were about growing programs.
We were about spending more money on on things.
And that that makes you more likely to succeed working with
Democrats as the way things are now.
And so I arrived in Washington, DC at the very tail end of the
Clinton administration. I was fresh out of my master's

(03:15):
in social work, and I got nominated for a program called
the Presidential Management Internship Program, which was
created by Jimmy Carter in the 1970s to draw people with
graduate level education into federal service.
It was his idea on how am I going to attract and train the
managers for the for for our federal bureaucracy.

(03:36):
So the Dean of my school nominated me and I went straight
to work for an appointee of AT at the Social Security
Administration of Bill Clinton. So a political appointment went
straight to work for her. While I was in that program, I
also got detailed to the United States Senate and worked for

(03:56):
actually three different senators, including one that
pretty much everyone has heard of, Senator Ted Kennedy of
Massachusetts. He was one of what we call the
disability champions in the Senate.
And so I went and and did a detail there with him.
I also worked for Tom Harkin of of Iowa for a while, a little
while. And then during the rest of my

(04:19):
time there, I ended up working for a variety of non profits as
well as government contractors implementing federal programs.
And in the middle of that time Iwent to law school and I went to
Georgetown, which was a fascinating experience.
And I was also the president of the Law Democrats at Georgetown.

(04:41):
So I during that time also whileI was in law school, volunteered
at the headquarters in Chicago for President Obama's first term
doing disability outreach, voteroutreach, and then, you know,
worked throughout the rest of upuntil the event that changed the

(05:05):
world, COVID. I worked at a variety of federal
nonprofits as well, as I said, government contractors.
And the very last nonprofit I worked for had a small political
action committee attached to it.So I also got to, I administered
that, which meant I got to see alittle bit on the money side of

(05:27):
the equation as well. So I kind of got to see DC in
all its glory, good, bad and ugly.
And I usually emphasize a focus on those last two.
I didn't ugly, But yeah. So, you know, I it was COVID
that sort of helped bring me outof my stupor.

(05:48):
But there was something that happened a few years before
COVID. A few things.
Let's jump. Into that, let's see where where
the shift happened here. Yeah.
So the first thing that happenedis that even before, way before
COVID, I started to notice the change that was happening within
our country and within politics.And it used to be, you know,

(06:11):
when I first got detailed to theto the Hill, senators of
different part of the different parties used to have dinner
together all the time. There were outings and things
like that. And even one of the senators I
worked for, he was part of a bipartisan acapella singing
group that would, you know, you know, sort of exemplify sort of

(06:35):
the, you know, you're an American, I'm an American, and
we're going to work together to try to improve our country.
And I felt like the conversations we had on the
Hill, especially prior to 911, Ido think 911 shifted a lot of
things. And we'll probably get into that
a little bit later, but I used to believe that we could get a

(06:55):
whole bunch of different people with really different views in a
room together. And it felt like we were having,
you know, rational, reasoned conversations where we all
wanted to see our country improve.
We disagreed about how that might happen, but we all were
working in good faith towards a compromise that would leave us

(07:16):
all not fully satisfied but believing that we got something
to incrementally improve the country.
And I saw that change, you know,over the years that I was there
and I, I saw so much more sort of antagonism about people who
didn't think like we did or across the aisle.

(07:36):
And I started to hear a lot morethings like, well, you know,
that might be a really good idea, but I don't think it, the
optics of it would be very good or I don't think the donors
would like that or I don't. Think that I don't mean to
interrupt you When did you startto kind of see this?
Because I, I, I, I only am aware, you know, maybe the last
10 years or so, but you're saying it might have been

(07:58):
before. It was a little bit before that.
I think that social media, the advent of social media did play
a role in it. But I, I really think that it
was what, during President Obama's term, and I think that
there was a lot of divisive rhetoric that was being used and

(08:22):
sort of a stocking of the division A.
You know, you'll hear a lot of people of my generation say
this, for example, you know, I'mnot saying there is not racism.
I'm not saying that discrimination doesn't occur.
But it felt like in the 80s and the 90s, you know, it wasn't
that we were colorblind. We saw we were different colors.

(08:43):
We just didn't care if you were a good person and you were fun
to hang out with. We hung out and it wasn't that
big of a thing. But I feel like early 2000s with
social media, it started to creep back in.
And then with Obama, it really started to heat up that rhetoric
around dividing us by by race. And then we saw how that's

(09:05):
developed later on. Well, I got, I got, I continue
to get torched whenever I'd I talk about Obama being the, the
true beginning of the division of the way that we handled
division in this country becauseof identity politics and because
of, you know, this, this idea ofbeing a victim.
And I feel like he preached thatand, you know, to point fingers

(09:26):
instead of taking accountabilityor having accountability.
And so I agree 100%. And so it's interesting to hear
somebody that kind of lived through it as a Democrat see the
same thing. And, and, and, and again, I'm
called all sorts of horrible things.
I'm a, I'm this all the buzzwords because I critique or
criticize Obama and his policy. So anyway, I just wanted to.

(09:48):
Well, yeah, And, you know, that's fair.
And as we get further on, I willtalk about why I think that
happens so much and why Democrats respond with that sort
of visceral anger when you pointsomething like that out.
And there's a reason and you shouldn't look at it.

(10:08):
Don't take it personally and shouldn't look at it badly.
I I didn't. I viewed as desperation on their
part and and maybe I go a littletoo extreme with you're just
desperate. So I have to work on toning
myself down as well. Which, which, which is fair.
You know, I think that somethingelse happened that, you know,
started before Obama, but reallygeared up during Obama.

(10:32):
And that was the push to get everybody to go to college.
And the critical theory, the critical race theory, the, and
the divisiveness that that brings, the victimhood
mentality, the lack of accountability that goes along
with the idea that you're oppressed.

(10:53):
And no matter what you do, you'll never succeed because
they're, you know, and you're anoppressor, Ryan, because of the
color of your skin also got geared up during Obama's term.
It was everybody go to college. And now what we see now is just
reading an article about this today is just a glut of college

(11:14):
educated people with absolutely no job skills really that fit
the current environment. And we see an unemployment rate
of almost of just under 10% for young college educated 9.2.
Yeah, I guess it's a little bit better, but yeah, so and and
that's when we're gonna get worse.

(11:35):
And we can talk about that a little bit later because I think
that is fueling a lot of the theissues both on what I will call
the brainwashed left and the brainwashed right.
So, and, and I should say that, you know, I, I don't believe
that deprogramming is necessary only on the left.

(11:58):
The reason why I say deprogramming Democrats is
because that's my experience andthat's what I can speak to.
I, I sort of reject the divisionthat they have us under of left
and right. And we can talk about that more,
but let let's finish the, the the setup and then we'll circle
back because I it's easy for me to get distracted too, but so

(12:20):
we. I have 16 things I want to ask
and I'm trying to like keep it all at by baby.
Go ahead, this is great. Yeah.
So I think that was part of it. So part of me was starting to
become really disillusioned about my ability to make a
difference. The other thing that happened
along those lines during that time was the passage or the
Supreme Court decision in Citizens United.

(12:41):
And money just started flooding into DC.
It may not surprise you or it might, I don't know.
But in 2020, four, $4.6 billion was spent on lobbying.
And that's with AB. And that's the money that the
average voter is competing with in order to for someone in

(13:02):
Washington to hear them, you know, to hear their concerns, to
be responsive to. And that is, you know, just a
fraction of the $20 billion spent on the federal elections
last year. And so, so when you start
thinking of it that way, you know, it was, it's not
surprising. I heard, well, you know, that's

(13:23):
not going to play well at midterm.
So we're not going to support that or we can't give the other
side a win because that won't play well in the election or
those kind of things. You know, and Citizens United
was 2010. It was right around the same
time that Obama, you know, was picking up steam and Obamacare
got passed and all that. So, and in the meantime, you

(13:47):
know, we're recovering from, youknow, the, the, the market crash
and everything else is going on.People are struggling.
And then always when you struggle, you look for someone
to blame. And when the the rhetoric heats
up and is divisive, it gives youthat other to blame.
So all of that sort of was a Stew.

(14:07):
I think that sort of created that environment.
And, you know, for me, you know,I went to Washington, DC because
I wanted to make our country better.
I wanted to I, you know, it as ayounger person, I would have
laughed at the idea that I wouldgo work for the government.
You know, I'm not going to go work for the man.

(14:27):
You know, I'm not going to go dothat.
But that's exactly what I did because I thought I could
actually make a difference. But as I started to see the new
environment and how much money was playing a role in politics
and how tribal things were starting to become, I became
less and less optimistic that I was going to be able to make a

(14:49):
difference. And, you know, for me, I, you
know, I gave up of having a family that wasn't in my, you
know, my, I have no children of my own.
And so I've poured everything into, you know, my career and
trying to make a difference. And that's where I was getting
my meaning and my identity. And so as I started to see, hey,

(15:12):
I'm not really making a difference, I started to become
kind of disillusioned. At the same time, you know, I
unfortunately lost both of my parents within two years to
illness, my dad in 2014 and my mom in 2016.
And it gave me a lot of exposureto what I like to call the sick
care system in our country. And in particular with my

(15:37):
mother, she, So my dad had a back issue.
He had surgery for it and then had just like a catastrophic
complications to that surgery that left him functionally
quadriplegic with adrenal failure.
And so he needed 24 hour care. He needed help with everything.

(15:57):
And my mom, who already had multiple sclerosis, became his
primary caregiver. And after he lived 5 1/2 years
after that surgery. And every day was a struggle,
you know, he fought for every day.
He was really happy to be here, but it was a really hard time
for both of my parents. And the toll of taking care of

(16:19):
him, the financial stress, all the anxiety, the fact that she
was already immunocompromised led to my mom being diagnosed
with stage 4 of an extremely aggressive cancer, Yeah, in
2013. And, you know, she got the you
may want to get your affairs in order speech.
You may have, you know, a few months to live.

(16:40):
And so she said, Lisa, I'm goingto do conventional treatment,
but I'll do anything else that will help improve my odds.
Will you research it for me? And so I said sure.
And, you know, this is, I workedpart of my work around
disability policy involved health care, and it involved
health research. And so I was, you know, I was
like, sure, I'll look into it and I did.

(17:02):
And, you know, I found things that made me extremely
optimistic for her, but also started to really make me
question some of the regulatory agencies that are in charge of
our so-called healthcare system.You know, I, I found two books
that were amazing. One focused on nutrition and its
role in helping someone beat cancer.

(17:23):
And the other one also looked atnutrition, but really focused in
on sort of the, the mental and spiritual and emotional aspects
of what causes cancer and what also can help you beat it.
And so, you know, we got my mom to a naturopath.
She had surgery and she started chemo, a round of chemo of 6

(17:44):
treatments and we got her to a natural path.
We changed her diet, everything she put in on her body, cleaned
her home with, and then we worked on her stress reactions.
We did guided meditation, we didfocus breathing, we did all
sorts of things like that. And after the 3rd chemo
treatment in that first round, she had a battery of tests and

(18:06):
she was cancer free. There was no evidence of cancer
in her body anymore. And her doctor was amazed and
astounded and couldn't believe it.
What a miracle. And, you know, even though he
said at one point when I tried to bring her organic food into
her into the hospital while she was having a blood issue, dealt
with that he didn't think it mattered what she ate, you know,

(18:29):
and that was just sort of what, you know, I was shocking to me.
You know, the one thing he did say that I thought was really
somewhat astute is her attitude about what's going to happen
matters a lot. And I think that's 100% true.
But that's a story for a different day.
But so she finished those six chemo treatment, you know, the

(18:50):
round. And she was cancer free for two
years, completely cancer free. And we got to take her all over
the place, and she got to do a lot of things that, you know,
she had on her bucket list. And then a tiny little growth
appeared where the original tumor was.
And her doctor recommended chemotherapy again.

(19:11):
And she had one chemotherapy treatment, and it fried her
kidneys, and she died of kidney failure.
Yeah. Thank you.
It was very hard, Ryan, But the reason I tell this story is that
it really did create a lot of cracks in the dam that held the
flood of truth back from me about the government in which I

(19:35):
had placed so much of my faith and so much of my trust and the
agencies that I did as well. You know it, It made me think,
what in the heck is the USDA doing?
That food pyramid doesn't at allresemble what all the science
says about nutrition. You know that I've just read and
you know what in the world is going on with cancer treatment.

(19:58):
You know, chemotherapy hasn't really improved in 50 years.
And it's basically, let's throw all this poison at someone who's
already struggling and hope thatwe kill the cancer cells but not
too many of the healthy cells around it.
So, so that's sort of started tocreate some cracks, but at the
same time, I had to go back to DC and I was working with those

(20:21):
very same agencies and the people there.
And so I kind of had to pigeonhole that.
I kind of had to put that aside so that I could go back to work.
Now, that was in 2016. So flash forward a few years,
you know, Donald Trump gets elected.
I think the world is over. I think, you know, he's going to
destroy our country. I.
Think you were on that team you were on.

(20:43):
I had full scale TDs, I had fullscale everything the media told
me about him. I believed.
I didn't double check it. I never went back and watched
the full speech to see. Did he actually say that or is
that out of context? All the things and I literally
cried on election night. And I'm not joking.

(21:05):
There were tears just flowing and Oh my God, what's going to
happen to women's rights? What's going to happen to, you
know, all the, all the vulnerable people, just like
every good progressive member ofthe cult would do.
And so I did. And, you know, I proceeded to
spend the next three years fighting everything that he did.

(21:28):
At the same time, as I had mentioned, I was really growing
disillusioned with doing this work at all.
I kind of joked that, you know, as I started to go to meetings
on the hill, I no longer took notes of the meetings.
I, I just made check marks everytime.
I felt it was being lied to and you know, that's how I would
judge the meeting like it. It was that ten Wow, that was a

(21:51):
15 bagger, pretty good one, you know, kind of thing.
And so you can. Get to 20 next time.
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And and you know, I would often,
you know, put stars next to it if it was like the chief of
staff lying to me instead of thepolicy person or whatever.
But the the yeah, so. Bottom line is you weren't doing

(22:12):
what you what you wanted, what you wanted to be doing, which is
actually taking notes and helping and doing, yeah.
Exactly. And I could almost to a tee tell
you what was going to happen in every meeting that I went to,
depending on who I was meeting with, what party they were and
how high up in the leadership they actually were.
And so, you know, or, or the pecking order, sometimes it's

(22:34):
leadership, sometimes it was just a brand new congressperson
and they had a brand new person working on an issue.
And most of that time I spent trying to educate them about the
issue or that kind of thing. But so in October of 2019, I
scheduled my retirement for March 31st of 2020.

(22:56):
Oh goodness, so you were right on the the COVID.
We were just just finishing up two weeks to flatten the curve.
And so, yeah, I, I like to believe that.
So, so you had just lost interest, like you had said,
because you felt all of these things were happening and, and
you just, you were just going tobe out.
I'm I'm done. I'm just going to retire.
Like that was the mindset. That was the mindset.

(23:19):
And, you know, I actually had gotten into a new relationship
that I started in February of 2019, and I just couldn't
foresee myself continuing to do what I was doing just for the
sake of money, you know, and that was really what it was at
that point. It was really kind of appealing.

(23:41):
I was, I, I, I used to say I getpaid the medium bucks because I
wasn't, you know, making the bigbucks.
But and, you know, they had an attractive, you know, match to
the retirement thing. And so I could have tried to
write it out, but I needed something more meaningful and I
didn't know what I was going to do next at that point.

(24:03):
And I had been talking about trying to find something new,
but I had sort of really gotten pigeonholed into a very specific
set of skills. And, you know, there were times
where I was offered significantly more money to
lobby for, say, healthcare facilities or, you know, do

(24:24):
other kinds of consulting. And it just wasn't appealing to
me because the for me, the wholepoint of doing the work was to
to improve the world, to make our country a better place.
And so when I felt like I couldn't really do that anymore,
I decided to to retire and take a little time to figure out what

(24:44):
came next. Were you still, I mean, there's
no other way to say it, filled with TDs anti Trump when you
left or, or had you kind of just, I guess I missed the part
or were you being kind of open to this idea that maybe and
look, we all, we all get it. He's not always the most likable

(25:04):
personality. I I get it.
But just from a political standpoint, all the things that
you were being told, did that contribute to you being OK?
I'm done because I'm seeing through this.
No, not at any. I was still.
Yeah, and I'll relay the story Ihad with my boyfriend, who is my
partner, and he'll become big ina few minutes in the story, too.

(25:26):
But, you know, prior to us getting together when we were
just friends, you know, we were having some conversations and he
asked me, you know, do you thinkall Republicans are racist?
And without even really missing a, a beat, I said, well, I guess

(25:46):
you'd have to be at least a little bit because it's so
ingrained and programmed into Democrats heads that Republicans
are racist. Their policies are racist.
All of them are racist. If you vote for someone who's
going to try to put in place thepolicies of the Republican
Party, then you must be racist. You must not care.

(26:07):
And this we'll get into a lot. You must not care about black
people. You must not care about, about
trans kids. You must not care about the
people that we, we had been programmed to believe the
Republicans were going to hurt. So I, I hadn't seen through the
veil at all at in October of 2019, I was just done playing

(26:30):
the Washington game, you know, and, and it is, and it, it, it
gets old at a point because you're never really sure if you
have actual friendships because it, you know, unless it's
completely away from work, people who don't do anything
related to politics, because people are always looking at

(26:51):
what can you do for me? Who can you introduce me to, you
know, kind of thing, as opposed to just, hey, I think you're a
really interesting person. I'd like to, you know, have a
drink with you and spend some time or we have a hobby in
common or whatever. So I was just done with with
that. And, you know, and oddly enough,
two things I had kind of toyed with were teaching and writing a

(27:15):
book. So turns out that came to be a
little bit later in the game. But yeah, so flash word now to
COVID, you know, And so I was still completely under the spell
and I bought everything that they were saying and I was
afraid. I bought some masks, which I

(27:36):
will say I barely ever wore, only maybe once or twice because
pretty soon you'll, I, I, I did wake up and, you know, I was, I
didn't want to kill someone's grandma, you know, and not even
know that I was sick and pass iton to someone.
So I was doing everything I could to kind of follow the
rules and do what I was told. And just like you're supposed to

(27:59):
and trust the experts, just likeyou're supposed to and listen to
what the government tells you. And my boyfriend, his name is
Jamie. He was not.
He was really questioning from the beginning.
Is this really as bad as they say it is?
Should we just really be taking a different approach?

(28:20):
And so, as you might imagine, heand I were verbally sparring
about this a little bit in what I would now call a mixed COVID
household, you know? I'm sure there were a lot of
those. I'm sure there were.
And at at some points it got particularly heated and we were
having a particularly heated conversation one day and Jamie

(28:42):
said to me or I said to him, I said, Jamie, I just can't
believe it. I can't believe these agencies
that I've worked with for 20 years, the people in them that
I've worked with all this time, would do this to us, would do
this to the world without the data and the evidence to support
what they're doing. And he just really calmly looked

(29:04):
me in the eyes and he asked me aquestion and he said, Lisa, if
they'll poison our water, what won't they do?
Now, I already knew this to be true because of the research I
did for my mom, which is part ofwhy I share that story.
They put the fluoride in the water.
It lowers IQ, it calcifies your pineal gland, it does all sorts

(29:29):
of bad things, and there's all sorts of things in the water.
Now I knew it to be true, and I also know water is the most
essential thing for us. If you don't get it, you're
going to die in about 3 days if you have no fluids.
And So what it did is push the cognitive dissonance that I have
been holding in my head. And I believe everyone on the

(29:52):
left has to in order to believe the contradictory things that
the experts tell them all the time.
But it pushed mine to the point where my brain could no longer
hold it. And I'd like to say my brain
literally broke and I couldn't think my way out of it.
I couldn't come up with an answer.

(30:13):
I couldn't figure out a way thatit could be true that these
agencies actually truly care about my health and are doing
are not captured by industry andaren't doing what you know, the
people with the most money want and are doing what is best for
our health and that they poison our water.
It just, I couldn't. And so then Jamie did something

(30:36):
else that, you know, was really key for me waking up.
And that was the fact that all these people who were
supposedly, you know, on the right or independent thinkers
were saying, do your own research.
And at the same time the Democrats were trying to censor,
they were censoring people left and right and shutting down

(30:57):
conversation and shutting down debate.
Zuckerberg admitted it. Well, yeah, it's all, I mean,
it's all admitted. And I I detail a lot of this in
the book, you know, with the theTwitter Files and everything
else. And you know, the government was
getting private industry to do through direct pressure,

(31:21):
coercion, what it the First Amendment prevents it from
doing, basically, which the the Supreme Court even has said,
Nope, can't do that. That still runs afoul of the
Constitution. But So what Jamie said is he's
like, Lisa, if you don't believeme, prove me wrong.

(31:42):
Go get the research. Show me how I'm wrong.
And I think I screamed at him. Fine, I will.
And then what happened is I allowed myself to ask questions
again. I allowed myself to do research
with an open mind from sources beyond who were approved

(32:04):
government credentialed sources and as many in the truth
community would say. I started going down rabbit hole
after rabbit hole and my life has never been the same.
You know? My entire reality collapsed.
Everything I thought to be true,not true.
Everyone I trusted could no longer be trusted, including

(32:25):
myself, because I realized I hadbeen indoctrinated and
brainwashed through lies and propaganda.
And that I had, through indoctrination in school
especially sublimated my intuition to the point where
you, my gut would tell me that can't be true, you it must be

(32:49):
wrong. But if an expert told me that it
was true, I had to believe it. So, you know, I went through
what I now would term a dark night of the soul, all of, you
know, trying to rebuild my self esteem, my identity, my sense of
self. And it was really, really,

(33:10):
really challenging. But the conversation with Jamie
and the censorship also remindedme that, you know, I was, in my
heart, a classical liberal, as they say, meaning I believed in
liberty and that I am a First Amendment absolutist.
And what was happening around that time with freedom of

(33:32):
speech, but not just freedom of speech, because the First
Amendment guarantees our freedomof assembly.
It guarantees our freedom of association.
It. So you can't go see grandma in
the hospital who's sick, but youcan have a huge protest if, if,
if they agree with the reason you're protesting, right.

(33:53):
And also our freedom to worship when and where we please.
And all of these natural born God-given rights enshrined in
our First Amendment being eviscerated without so much as a
conversation about do we actually have to go this far?
Do we have to do this? Is this justified by the data

(34:15):
and the evidence that we have? And at the same time, you have
10s of thousands of scientists and doctors and researchers who
published the Great Barrington Declaration and sign it saying,
yeah, we probably ought to just treat this like we have every
other, you know, infectious disease and take an approach
that protects the vulnerable. And meanwhile, nobody is paying

(34:39):
any attention to them in the government.
And I always like to remind people that there is no public
health emergency exception to our Constitution.
In fact, there is no exception to our Constitution.
And, you know, but they controlled everyone the way that

(34:59):
they always do. And that's with fear.
And once you get someone afraid enough, they will do just about
anything once you tell them thatyou can keep them safe.
And that's what I think we saw happening during COVID.
That's why, you know, I'll go back to 911.
That's why people were willing to look the other way when they

(35:21):
completely gutted the 4th Amendment with the Patriot Act
and the Transportation Security Act after 911 is because they
made people afraid. You know, that they were willing
to give more power to the government to protect them.
And, and I think that is a very clear distinction between what I

(35:46):
see from people who are on the right or independent versus
people who are Democrats, is that the ability to control them
through fear is, is, is different.
You know, and I in retrospect, put a lot of the blame is not

(36:06):
the right word. But the the reason, a big part
of the reason for that, I believe is, is that so few
people on the left have any sortof spiritual or religious faith.
And I, and I read that when reviewing the book, you know,
you, you put some emphasis on that as well.
And you know, I'll, I'll toss itout here.

(36:27):
I, I, I'm, my whole life have been back and forth when it
comes to faith. And I, and I, I want, I've
always believed in individual spirituality.
I believe that it's it, you needthat.
But you're right, the people that don't and the times in my
life where I kind of abandoned that notion, notion, wrong word
probably, but you do when you you're able to be, you're so you

(36:51):
can get so scared and so worriedabout life.
And I'm, I'm making this very generalized.
But but that that you could fallprey to that, I mean, easily and
just, and you didn't really haveanything to kind of to, to lift
you out of this hole. The, the the, the being scared
to you're basically giving your autonomy to somebody, if that

(37:11):
makes any sense. I'm I'm somebody.
No, it it, it totally does. So you know.
The way they talk more about thereligion thing.
So I think that there is this natural desire among humans to
feel connected to something bigger than themselves.
You know, the world can be a very scary place if you are not.

(37:34):
And when you have a connection to the creator, however you want
to, you know, envision that I, Ipersonally don't, I push anyone
towards any particular, you know, interpretation.
And I myself have my own personal relationship with God.

(37:54):
I don't go to church or any other formalized religion
because I don't think that's necessary in order to be
connected to the creator. I don't look negatively at
anyone who does and I highly think that the power of prayer
in a group is very real. The energy putting that energy

(38:15):
together is very real and the community that you can create
through those institutions are is amazing.
On the other hand, I do also think that some it has been used
often misused. Now we see all the the money
involved in religious institutions, but also has been
used as a mechanism of a different mechanism of control

(38:37):
throughout history as well. But, and I'm not trying to get
sidetracked into that, but the point being that we that people
want to be connected to something real.
And they also want to believe that there is some power, some
good behind good, some power, you know, that is going to make

(38:57):
everything OK, you know, and that if they don't have that
through their own connection to,to God, they look somewhere else
to place that and that they put it into government.
And it's very clear that, you know, if you go back to, I'm

(39:18):
sure you've probably heard this quote from Karl Marx that, you
know, religion is the opiate of the masses, right?
And what he meant by that is that if people have religious
faith, they will not be able to see how absolutely miserable
they actually are, and thereforethey won't allow the government

(39:40):
to take over control. And so, you know, part of what I
came to while I was researching for the book is that our country
has been in a slow cultural revolution towards communism
that began about the same time that the Cultural Revolution
began in China, but because of our very strong constitution and

(40:04):
our history of individualism. It's taken a lot longer to kind
of breakdown those institutions,but what is very clear when you
look at any sort of socialist orcommunist revolution throughout
history, there are two institutions that have to be
destroyed in order to get there.One is religion and faith, and

(40:27):
the second is the family. And we have seen concerted
attacks on both of those things in the US since, I would say
about the 1960s, around the sametime that the Cultural
Revolution started in in China. They were already communist, by
the way, at that time. But Mao, my understanding, I

(40:51):
will say, I am not a scholar in in what happened in China, but
my understanding is that he was fearing that people were
beginning to reject the communism.
And that is why he moved to destroy religion, destroy and
destroy the family. And the other piece of that was

(41:12):
creating chaos in the cities through his Red Guards, which
was the youth who then created alot of of destruction in the
cities, somewhat similar to we what we have seen with Antifa
and BLM and some of the other things going on in our country.
So, you know, I think that part of the other thing is that, you

(41:36):
know, most religions beyond justgiving you sort of or, or if you
have your own faith, beyond giving you a, a sense of
connection, it gives you a senseof acceptance.
It gives you a sense of that you're loved and you're enough.
And I think we are in a situation in our society, I

(42:01):
can't speak for cultures across the world because I don't live
there, but where people feel very disconnected from one
another. In my experience, there's very
little sense of community. COVID really spiked that up
because it forced us all online.And so now people's online lives
are almost more real than their,you know, life outside of the

(42:26):
screen. And so many of the things that
used to create a sense of community and sort of gave us
the idea that we may, you know, all work in different jobs and
we may come from different backgrounds, but we're all
Americans at our base and we canrelate to one another.
So many of those things have really disappeared.

(42:48):
You know, like, I used to be in a bowling league many years ago,
and I played competitive pool ona team, and I was in a dinner
club. And, you know, a lot of people
got a sense of community throughchurch.
You might not know how your neighbor voted, but you knew
they brought the best salad to the church picnic, right?
And we don't see that anymore. And it becomes a lot easier to

(43:13):
make someone else the responsible party for your
problems when you don't interactin real life with anyone like
that. And I think that's part of what
we see all the time now. I've, I've always said I was
independent and, and because I liked the idea of, of having

(43:33):
these conversations and, you know, I don't have to have all
of these. I don't have to believe all
these things and, and hate all of these things.
You know, I can pick and choose based on the issue.
And so, but what happened, you know, in the last, you know, not
on a quite the level of you, because you work there, you kind
of invested in it more than I was, but just I started seeing

(43:55):
that I wanted to go and have a beer with somebody that, and if
I disagree with them, we could just kind of laugh it off and
whatever. And then I lived up in a blue, I
won't say exactly where, but it was a very, very north eastern
blue state, blue city and town and the things that were said to
me. And it was right during the 2016

(44:15):
election. And, and I, I was, I was shocked
because I grew up in Texas. So I wasn't used to, you know,
having that, quite that push back.
But I mean, I'd be at a bar and just having a beer and just
trying to talk normally. And, and, and the, the victory
on the, I mean, the, this just spewed at me for possibly voting

(44:37):
for Donald Trump and it, and it opened my eyes to this kind of
this, this like something's not right here.
Like I don't remember this happening during, you know, Bush
versus who I, you know, I don't remember this happening and
something's going on. And so I looked into it more and
that's where, you know, and again, this isn't about me, but
that, that's why I connected with what you were saying when
we, when we spoke was I found all these things out from

(44:59):
different ways as well. I mean, you found it out your
way. I'm finding it out my way.
And I'm hoping that it's something that people are
opening their eyes to in the, inthe religion, in the, I mean,
look in New York City, that's exactly what I'm thinking.
And when you're talking about this, this, you know, everybody
there is just feeding off of being taken care of.
And there's a lot of, you know, the lack of the whole religious

(45:21):
mixture and what's going on and,and, and right now is so Ron
Mandani and, and, and I'm worried that spreading.
You see pockets of it here and there and you see people that
just turn their noses up to religion.
You turn their noses up to this idea of family and telling women
that, you know, angry that heaven forbid we suggest that a

(45:43):
woman might want to stay home and be a mother and want to be a
family. Not even that.
Just have a father present that the how important that is.
I can go off on all this being with the black community and all
these missing fathers and we're just getting away from all of
that. You're seeing a decline in
everything. No, we definitely are.
And again, this is, this is on purpose, you know, I mean.

(46:04):
You think this? Is I?
I 100% believe it. It is and it is been done
through our universities in manyways and it has also been done
through the design of our welfare programs.
You know you will lose funding if you get married.

(46:26):
That sends a very clear message.Have another kid, but don't dare
have dad in the house. Yeah.
So I do think it it was done on purpose.
One thing I will not, I don't doin the book and I, I, I don't
really do because I am not trying to tell.
I'm not trying to reprogram anyone, Ryan.
I'm not trying to tell you who did it.

(46:47):
I suggest everybody do their ownresearch to figure out and come
to their own conclusion about who exactly was doing it.
But the Democratic Party and theleadership of it has been
instrumental, I'll just say, in accomplishing some of these
goals. But I, I definitely think that,

(47:08):
you know, there have been concerted effort to weaken the
family and but even to go beyondthat, to make it so that not
only are there not gender roles,we can't even say what a gender
is anymore. And we have a sitting Supreme

(47:29):
Court Justice who during her confirmation hearing, declined
to to say what she thought a woman was because she's not a
biologist, You know, So and as alawyer, that's, that's
ridiculous to me. There's women are a protected
class according to the Supreme Court.

(47:50):
And one of the, not to get too deep into like legal theory, but
basically to be a protected class, there have to be
definable visual ability to tellwho is a member of that class.
And women have, you know, they're, they're not the most
protected, long story, but they are a protected class.

(48:13):
But now a Supreme Court Justice says, I can't tell you who's in
that class. Well, that means you're about to
try to destroy what that class is.
And, and you know, I, I, I will say that I have recently, and
I'm joking about this kind of, but I have burned my feminist
card. You know, modern feminism is

(48:36):
nothing like what we envisioned it to be.
And you know, it it it is responsible for in large part
the fact that I chose not to have children.
And like the 90% of women over 50 who chose not to have
children who have been surveying, I regret that choice.
I can't go back and change it. And part of why I'm speaking is

(49:00):
that I hope that young women whoare now man hating, angry, want
to be a boss babe. Worst thing that could ever
happen to me is to get pregnant May listen to me and hear my
cautionary tale. You know, one of the biggest
things getting back to the religion topic is that, you

(49:21):
know, aside from wanting to be connected to something bigger,
we're all looking for meaning and purpose, I think, in our
life. And you know, having that
connection to God can give that to you.
But also there's nothing that you could do.
I don't think as a, as a human meaningful or purposeful than

(49:41):
having them reproducing and raising the next generation of,
of children and raising responsible, compassionate,
loving adults who will carry on our species into the future.
And, you know, if I, when I haveconversations with young women,

(50:01):
you know, I say to them, do you really think anyone is going to
remember what you do at work? Do you really think 10 or 15
years from now there will be some women who invent something
that, you know, everyone will know about?
It's a very small percentage. You know, I, half of the most of
the people at my old nonprofits probably don't even know who I
am. And it's been five years, you

(50:23):
know, So, yeah. That you can erase the meaning
of reproduction. And what that does, you know, in
terms of giving purpose and and meaning to your life and replace
that with work is just, it's not, I don't think it's very

(50:43):
valid. And but I think it's something
that a lot of young women have been convinced of.
I saw the saddest little video was a, you know, a woman was on
a campus interview, you know, trying pro-life, trying to talk
to to young women about abortion.
And this young woman, I, I wouldsay probably 20, maybe 21,

(51:06):
student looking had said she hadhad an abortion and she didn't
regret it. And if she got pregnant today,
she would do it again. And in fact, she was, she was
planning to go get herself sterilized very soon.
And her friend came over and gave her a high 5 for it, you
know, and then she said, why in the world would I want to have

(51:28):
kids on a dying planet? And you know that that's sort of
the. This notion of why would I want
to bring kids into this world for X&Y&Z reasons mean interrupt
you. No, yeah.
And but to me, that is so very, very sad, you know?
And it's one thing, you know, like it's one thing, you know, I
was always sort of of the, you know, abortion should be safe,

(51:52):
legal and rare. And we really ought to make sure
people have supports that they need if they get pregnant and,
and, you know, don't feel like they have the supports in order
to to have that child. We've gone so far from that.
Young women use it as birth control basically.
And I, I think that there is something chemically that

(52:12):
happens to a woman when she becomes pregnant that doesn't
just go away, you know, with an abortion, you know, but I also
think like, I also think there'sthe, there's a fair bit of
misogyny within feminism these days.
The, the things that I would have said our characteristically

(52:34):
female, you know, nurturing softness, kindness is now looked
at as weakness and not female and it's looked at as bad.
It's, it's, it's actually hatingthose things that are sort of
intrinsically, hormonally and biologically woman and, and

(52:55):
women, so many women just basically act more like men.
You know, they're not, they, they don't want to be women.
And, you know, I think that is part of, you know, what happened
to me as well. And once I woke up from the
stupor, I don't, I don't feel that way anymore, you know, but

(53:17):
I think that going along with that, they've been pushing
gender ideology to try to completely even destroy what it
means to be a woman. As though the way we look on the
outside, all that's all you got to do is, you know, wear some

(53:37):
makeup, put on a dress, and now you're a woman.
I also think has some misogynistic things going on.
But I raised that because it that is also part of destroying
the the nuclear family that goesalong with the Cultural
Revolution idea. And it is also part of getting

(53:58):
children to place their faith more in the institution of
school and not in their parents.If they keep getting taught.
You could be any gender you want.
If your parents tell you otherwise, they're wrong.
And we're a safe place and your parents may not be.
And you know, if you decide you want to transition, you can do
it. Well, we're.
Not even going to tell them and.How exactly exactly Oh.

(54:21):
My gosh on that. Yeah, there's a lot in my book
about that, too, because it is. It is something that is really
pernicious. It's very, it's another one that
just really, really opened my eyes to the fact that the
Democrats are on the wrong side.If you think you can compel me
to use speech that I believe is completely inaccurate, either

(54:45):
for scientific or religious reasons or just because I don't
want to, you know, that that's aproblem.
And there was AI think it was a Washington Post.
I can't remember for sure who did it, but it was some survey
in 2023. And nearly half of Democrats
between like, the ages of 18 and29 believed it should be a crime

(55:11):
to misgender someone. So you could go to jail.
Yeah. I heard that one too.
Colorado. I think it's something along
those lines. But I mean, seriously, this is,
I mean, it's not about me. But real quick, I've mentioned I
was independent and, and my big issue right now is I is because
of the things we're talking about, especially something like

(55:31):
this. I mean, there's, there's a,
there's a open a scroll of just all the things that have that
have pushed me away from being able to align with anything on
the on the modern left. We keep using the word modern,
modern feminism, modern. And there's a true to that.
The, this wasn't, you know, even, I know, like I said, I was
never a Democrat or fiscally Republican.

(55:52):
The whole thing socially this, physically that, and I never saw
the Democratic Party and the, and the way I see them now.
And it's, it's extreme and, and I cannot align with it.
And so it's these things that you're talking about right now
with the gender and the, you know, a crime to misgender
somebody. I mean, this is, this is insane,
.06% of the country is causing the 90, you know, 9.4% of my

(56:17):
math is how good it is to, to, to cater to them to alter their
lifestyle to all of a sudden worry about their, their young
girls in the bathrooms, things like that.
And I'm called, we're called, everybody's called all these
horrible things for questioning the issues that surround
something like the trench or the, the gender identity.

(56:37):
And let's just talk about the bathrooms, let's talk about
sports. You do you, if you're an adult,
you do you leave the kids out ofit and whatever.
That doesn't make me this horrible person that people want
to make me out to be. And so that's kind of what what
I was so intrigued by with you is, you know, you were talking
about so this that 3 1/2 year period and then you lead up to
where you finally retired. Were you seeing the all of these

(57:00):
things? And I think maybe I missed that
all of these types of extremismsfrom the from the left start to
kind of like. Yes, I was.
Yeah, I was. But I would say that I kind of,
I got out of it in 2020 just as it was.
Really turning. Really bad.
So everyone else was putting their pronouns in their emails.

(57:24):
You know, luckily who the organization I work for didn't
require us to do that. Well, follow up question, were I
was going to ask you, were people were you and anybody
else, did anybody speak out and were they, I mean, did you feel
pressure to not say anything? Were people questioning this?
This kind of? Game, you know, it was weird

(57:47):
because it happened sort of subtly and then all of a sudden
it was there and you know, I was.
Were there others like you though that were kind of like
this is a little? No, no, most everybody was just
really going along with it. And and there, yeah, because the
peer pressure is intense and it is, there is this need

(58:11):
requirement for ideological conformity, you know, that I
talk about. And you had to just kind of go
along and it happens sort of incrementally.
So you give an inch and then you're all of a sudden you
notice I'm 6 feet from where I was.
But and I'm not comfortable here.
But how do I say anything without being, you know, shoved

(58:34):
off the Cliff that is in? The beginning 6.
Feet and and and people didn't Imean I was being pushed.
So I was the chair of the board of a a large coalition of like
100 organizations all focusing on disability.
And we were being pushed to do more work around, as they call

(58:55):
it, intersectionality and aroundtrans issues and, you know, and
around race and things like that.
And I did push back and probablyslowed that down.
But as soon as I retired, they went full in on it.
And, you know, I did some consulting work after the fact,

(59:18):
attended that coalition's annualmeeting, which was all done on
Zoom. It was the weirdest thing ever,
you know, 'cause all you saw were like 100 little black boxes
with beams and pronouns, by the way.
And the entire agenda was about race and gender and not about

(59:44):
disability. It was all about those things
which to me was very telling of what had happened in the
interim. And I can guarantee you I would
not have lasted long as the leader anymore of that coalition
because I had pushed back about as much as I could so.
You tried a little bit to. I tried a little bit, but I, you

(01:00:05):
know, I was on my way out and soI didn't, you know, I think part
of what I talk about and what I have I learned as I was, you
know, going through writing the book is that there the people on
the left and again, in part goesback to the lack of spiritual
faith, rely a lot on external validation for their own sense

(01:00:27):
of self and their self esteem. And part of that, you know, in
part because I'll go back and blame social media in part for
this, you know, cancel culture started to happen and people on
the left, the loudest voices arethe ones that are often the
farthest out there, right. And so, yeah, and, and it's on

(01:00:55):
the left and the right, I think.And I should have, I should have
said too, like I am an independent now.
I feel completely politically homeless.
You know I voted for Donald Trump in 2024.
That. Was going to be one of my
questions for you. Is with the with the hope that
he would. Shift over My question was did
this push you to to completely go the other way and and, and

(01:01:17):
did you vote? How did you vote if I was going
to see if you would even tell mebut.
No, yeah, I'm, I'm an open book on this.
I I one of the things that happened, you know, when I woke
up and I decided to write this book and found my own faith is I
let go of fear. I do not care if you do not like
me, and I don't mean you, but I.And no, we and we should be like

(01:01:38):
that, yeah. But it is that is a very hard
thing for someone on the left. It really is because relies so
much on being part of the that group.
It's so much a part of their identity.
And then the I would call them like sex SECT of the progressive
cult. So you have the race sect and

(01:01:58):
you have the gender sect and youhave, you know, all these
different sects, but they don't want to be excommunicated.
They don't want to be different.So you see the virtual signaling
of the Ukrainian flag in the bioor the picture with the mask or
see, I'm one of you, I'm good. So I get my, my validity from,

(01:02:22):
from you. And that used to be me.
So I'm, I don't like to be too, you know, harsh about it, but
it's just a reality that I that I see basically, I can't ever
see myself voting for a Democratin the in the near future unless
they do AA188-ON free speech anda 188 on a lot of things it's

(01:02:46):
getting. Further, further and further
extreme. I mean, you get AOC.
I saw I was trying to possibly make it.
I'm like really a guy like Bernie.
We used to be extreme and now he's, you know, but mom, Donnie,
a Newsome out there, I mean he'sthey're doubling down on they
just keep digging. I feel like as somebody who used

(01:03:07):
to be kind of in the middle and was, was kind of just wanting a
good a good candidate either way.
And then now it's I just can't align with it.
I know the right has its problems, but my goodness, all
of these things that you're talking about so far today are
all the things if you went back and I'm just shamelessly
plugging myself, I guess. But if you go back and you
listen to a lot of the things that that I've been talking
about over these last few months, can't I did a whole

(01:03:30):
thing on cancel culture or thingall these things and it's all
it's just lefty extremists methodology.
It's this game plan that they have.
It's and it's hate, hate, hate. And how dare everything Donald
Trump, man, that's the joke is that he could do this and then
it would be his fault. And you know, the, the protests,
Oh, please, please, Gaza, we we've got to stop it.

(01:03:51):
And then he does. And then it's like, OK, what's
the next thing now that we can yell about and it and it's this.
And now I've seen it as kind of an observer.
And that's why it's so interesting to hear from you as
somebody who like went through it and and and kind of was, was
on that side of things and did things like Antifa and all these

(01:04:11):
things. Were you ever like, I don't want
to align with this, Like this isnot who I am.
Well. I mean, I woke up in 2020.
So it was before George Floyd. It was before, you know, all of,
of that. But I there were things.
Antifa, right? Still kind of the that whole
thing or not really. I I think it mostly really

(01:04:34):
started to rear its ugly head. George.
Floyd Yeah. The, the Summer of Love, as they
call it, you know, the, the mostly peaceful protests that
did $2 billion worth of damage and, you know.
All that in the background, there's flames everywhere.
Yeah. So, but, you know, there were a
few things that I, I just didn'tbuy into the whole time that I

(01:04:56):
think kind of kept me a little bit from going over the, the
deep end. And maybe in part because all
the identity politics they were pushing, I wasn't part of I, I'm
not a black person and I'm not gay.
I'm not, you know, so it didn't you know, The thing is that fear

(01:05:18):
going back to something we're talking about is the way they
get people and IA lot of that isthrough the identity politics.
A lot of that is, oh, if you're trans or you love someone who's
trans, then those nasty Republicans are going to
genocide you if you're black, You know, despite the fact that

(01:05:40):
the, the biggest enemies of, in my opinion of, of the black
culture in our country are Democrats.
And, you know, I, I detail a little bit of that in the book,
but they, you know, oh, if, if you know, the, the Republicans
get elected, they're going to doXY or Z to you.

(01:06:02):
And so that, that didn't work onme.
And I always sort of had a problem with where my party was
on immigration, to be honest. And then it just became so
blatant. I, my, my family immigrated from
Eastern Europe on both sides in the early 1900s.
So I'm I'm second, yeah. So I'm not anti immigrant, but

(01:06:28):
also I am very much about assimilation on the melting pot
and that if you are coming here and you do not believe in the
values of our country, you should not be here.
I not that I have anything against you because of your
race, your color or anything, but societies that do not share

(01:06:50):
basic values fall. There's just no if, ands or buts
about that you're. Seeing it now, that's what we're
seeing. Yeah, that is what we're seeing.
A House divided does not stand. And I don't consider myself a
Republican. I don't consider myself a
Democrat. And I think I I think that
there's a very large percentage of people who find themselves

(01:07:12):
where we are. It's neither party is neither
party speaks to us. And quite frankly, the parties
are way too powerful. You know, our founders warned us
about this. They call them factions and we
now have them and they are are ripping us apart and they are

(01:07:33):
it's a purposeful divide and conquer strategy.
Keep us fighting each other overthings that don't matter while
they, you know, drain the treasury, do horrible things in
our name across the planet and really don't do much to actually
address the concerns of of American citizens.
So it. Feels like 2 teams.

(01:07:54):
It feels like I'm supposed to beover here or over here, and if I
which I've done now is just I I'm getting away from the the
extreme left. Does that make it means all of a
sudden I found myself over here where I'm a MAGA or I'm this and
that and I've I've fallen prey to the other side of it, which
is I'm so frustrated with the division and, and, and, and what

(01:08:15):
I do. I do think that the, the extreme
left is, is the bigger the bigger role in that starting
with Obama that I found myself now, you know, aligning with
things maybe on the right that I'm I usually more moderate
with, you know, and like you just said about immigration.
That's a perfect example. Look, why can't we, why can't we

(01:08:37):
be OK with immigration? However, this, this, this and
this need to be applied. You can't just, you know, oh,
and, and if you chat, if you challenge what you, if you said
what you just said, which is, you know, they need to
assimilate, they need to do these things.
All of a sudden, you're the buzzwords, you're all of these
things now. And that's just not the way.
There's no mental anymore. No, Well, there is no space in

(01:09:01):
the middle. You know, I mean, I, I think
that there are two things that Isay to people now about like my
sort of buzz phrases for after my wake up.
And that is question everything,right, especially your own
beliefs and why you have them and follow the money.

(01:09:22):
Yeah, I I read that as well. In your in your stuff, follow
the. Money, yeah, follow the money
and it's a very illuminating when you follow the money, it's
very illuminating. And but the the question
everything, I think that's what is that people on the left no
longer question anything, especially not the belief that
they have, because they have been indoctrinated through

(01:09:45):
school to have them. They have been told that only
uneducated rubes believe anything different.
And they're certainly not one ofthose, right?
So they have to like, you know, and then you have the social
media and the media echo chamberand then the fact checkers, who
are all left-leaning, by the way.

(01:10:06):
Thank you. I was going to ask you about
Fact Check and go ahead on that because I, I, yeah, I was fact
checked and I'm like, yeah, it was fact checked by who and.
Follow the money. Yeah.
Follow. It's all worth leaning
nonprofits right from here on. Yeah, follow the money.
And when I say follow the money,it has three pieces to it.
Who paid for it? Who benefited from it and where

(01:10:26):
did it go? If you start doing that with all
of these things, you'll find some really interesting answers.
I did that. The protests.
Oh yeah, you follow the money with a lot of the protests and I
found a lot of stuff. But anyway, I didn't mean it.
Go ahead. And I didn't.
Even no and and I think that's true.
I've begun to question if there have been any organic protests
in the last 20 years that weren't funded, and I've noticed

(01:10:48):
that they kind of have lost their vava voom since they cut
off USADAID funding. Interesting, I might have to go
readdress that. Yeah, so take a look at that.
But what I was gonna say about the isms and the phobia calling
and all of that is that you, youare the isms, You're a yeah, the

(01:11:11):
isms, you're a racist, you're a whatever, you're transphobic IST
phobia. I just always laugh at the
phobia. It's like, no, nobody's afraid
of y'all. Maybe you wish we were, but that
ain't what is going on. But anyway, I digress.
I, I just the, so there's two points I want to make about it.

(01:11:33):
When nobody, when your policy ideas don't work, fear is all
you have. So you know you.
They use fear. And what has happened is most of
the people on the left are extremely compassionate.

(01:11:53):
Might not seem like it when they're hurling the isms and the
phobias at you, but what they have done is they have use
brainwashing and indoctrination techniques to create selective
compassion so that people are only on the left are only
allowed to be compassionate to people who are vulnerable in

(01:12:16):
their who they have been taught are vulnerable, historically
oppressed, marginalized groups, all of that stuff.
So the only those people are worthy, deserving of their
compassion. And what they have done is they
have manipulated that compassionusing fear and then weaponized
it into anger. And so they are now feel 100%

(01:12:43):
justified in being so angry at you.
That's why they're good at anger.
Don't care about that poor transkid.
OK, now what they also can't do is get below the talking points
because they haven't examined their own beliefs at all.
They don't have to because they constantly get confirmation bias

(01:13:06):
and reaffirmation and repetition.
Repetition, which is one of the main indoctrination techniques.
I'd say they get a morning memo each day and what their talking
points are. But Oh yeah, this is the talking
points, and this is the word you're supposed to use even
today. Word of the day, Buzzword of the
day. Like, like, yeah, I think it was
his last State of the Union address.

(01:13:28):
Biden's speech was fiery. That was the word that everybody
used. Fiery.
It's so funny that you, you bring this up and I, and I swear
people, I didn't plan this at all, but when I was reading your
stuff, reading your work, your book, this what you're talking
about right now, I had highlighted right here in front

(01:13:48):
of me and, and it was the idea because as soon as I, as soon as
you said, the people on the leftare the most compassionate, of
course, immediately I was like, what?
They're the, the, the hate, the burden, this.
And then I went on, I read, I continued on and, and, and I
can't agree with you more. I, I just feel like there are
these people that feel like theyhave to protect other people.

(01:14:12):
They have to this, the virtue signaling that this, they have
to. And then there and then there,
that stuff's being taken and it's being spun into hate and
spun into fear. And that's why they're the
loudest, the most violent, the most whatever.
And that and it's such a perfect, the way you put it was
was well done. Well, thank you.
I just want to let you know I had that here, Here, I said.
You said here. That's well, I see.

(01:14:34):
I told you that we'd probably get to everything that you
wanted to like maybe. Ask everything but we.
We'll get there. Not quite, but we're we.
Still got some a couple minutes.I, I definitely, there are a few
things I want to ask that are really basic because I like to
do the quick questions for you. I wanted to know.
And if you have something else, feel free to please, you know,
continue. But real quick.

(01:14:54):
Has anybody sought you out from the old crew, from the old
Democratic Party and said, hey, what are you doing here?
What's this book? What is this nonsense?
No, no. No, I will say you think.
They're blinded to it all, or they just don't even.
I don't think they know. I mean, I will say that like I,
I think I mentioned this maybe to you before we started

(01:15:15):
recording. I have a a love hate
relationship with technology, soI'm not probably not using
social media and everything elseto the best effect to get the
word out there. I think they'd all just think I
lost my mind, you know, I fell in love with this guy and he
brainwashed me to believe whatever.

(01:15:36):
Although if they could have a conversation with me, it's
obviously clear that I and have not lost my mind.
Although I thought I was when I first started waking up.
Because I mean, only crazy or stupid people believe what I now
believe, right? And so I'm.
Fascinated with how intense I see people hate big big bad

(01:15:56):
orange man. I'm so fascinated to see, to
talk. That's why I'm so glad to talk
to you to see people and not that all of a sudden you love
Trump at all, but but the fact that you're able to say, you
know what, OK, this isn't, this is not a, this is not a game
plan. This is not a, a strategy to
just hate this guy. He won.
He won. He's doing what he ran on for

(01:16:16):
the most part. And you know, and if we want to
win, we need to come back and, and have our own strategy.
And instead their strategy is just hate Trump and, and
everything we're doing. And they're on the 20% side of
every 8020 issue. And that's not, that's not going
to get him anywhere. And I feel like they're fading.
What do you think? Do you think the Democratic
Party is fading or do you think it's that's kind of just maybe

(01:16:39):
just a little bit highlighted right now I'll.
Be honest, I think both parties are.
The Democrats are really fading.I mean, I don't know what Mag is
going to do after Trump is gone.You know, and it's become really
clear as we see what's what's happened to Marjorie Taylor
Green in the past couple weeks, that the establishment is not

(01:17:01):
going to let anybody survive Whois out of line.
You know, and right now you haveTrump leading MAGA, But when
he's gone, I, I, I honestly don't know, you know, I.
Think he's priming JD Vance? They're not.
They're not molding this guy to continue on the MAGA movement,

(01:17:21):
if you will. You know, I don't have my pulse
or my finger on the pulse of MAGA about this because I've
kind of pulled back from MAGA a little bit because I see a lot
of cult like behavior now going on there too.
Not everybody. But I think that I have a lot of
questions about a lot of things that President Trump is doing.
And if you raise them with a lotof the MAGA crowd, he can do no

(01:17:44):
wrong. And that is not any better than
than the cult on the left, you know, where authority is always
right and you have to worship authority and idolize the
expert. And so I'm not sure.
I know I've heard a lot of people who are huge Trump
supporters raise a lot of questions about Peter Thiel,
raise a lot of questions about JD Vance's connection to him.

(01:18:07):
And, you know, I'm not, I am noton board with ushering in the
technocratic oligarchic rule of this country.
And I know a lot of people are asking questions about that.
So and there's just something I think about JD Vance that puts a
lot of people off that I know of.
So I'm that's. Amazing.

(01:18:29):
I haven't talked to a lot of people about JD.
That's what I'm saying. I'm not interesting because I
think otherwise. Just imagine I like the guy.
I mean, like I said, just for different reasons.
This is all probably the next the next conversation about the
future. You make a good point.
I mean, I don't know what's gonna happen when Donald Trump's
gone. And but the Democrats are so far
behind. And, you know, can Gavin Newsom

(01:18:50):
really win it? And I mean, it's just, it's
just, it's crazy. And so part of what I was going
to get to was the the future. But let's circle back.
What what's that? What was her name that always
said circle back? Jen.
Press Secretary Yeah, we'll, we'll, let's circle back here to
your book. I mean, let's really focus on
the book. That's why that's that's why we
connected. And, and again, admittedly,

(01:19:12):
I've, I've read as much as I could until we, we had our talk
and I'm going to keep going withit.
And it is really good. I, I enjoy it.
And, and I again, it's fascinating because I feel like
one of the ways you set it up, and I'll set it up the same way
is that people can can believe all, you know, they can have
their opinions about everything right now and what's going on.

(01:19:35):
And you can still put yourself in your shoes if you are like
you, if you're like me, who's kind of gravitated towards MAGA
because mostly because of the insane behavior on the left, in
my opinion, you know, I can relate to it.
OK, Wow. She's seeing these things
through this. And I feel like anybody can read

(01:19:55):
it. Some people might get, you know,
butthurt by it if they're true, still staunch Democrats.
But and I and I love, I love that part of it.
And and again, I look forward toto continuing through it.
And, and I just wanted to know, I mean, you could have walked
away. I mean, I know this is a very
basic question because the obvious answer is you want to
spread, spread your word. But you could have walked away
from this and gone from my understanding you, your

(01:20:17):
relationship and in, in a nice fresh air, you know, and you
could get away from it all. But instead you chose to dive
almost in a way deeper, researching, writing a book,
putting yourself out there to where people, like I said, could
maybe find you. Why did you choose to do that?
Like what was your, what was theincentive?
What, what moment did you go? I'm doing a book.

(01:20:40):
So after I woke up, I went through a lot of emotions and I
got really, really angry. I got angry that this had been
done to me, you know, that I hadbeen indoctrinated and
brainwashed and essentially my life choices taken away from me

(01:21:01):
in many ways because of, of, of that indoctrination and
brainwashing. And I also recognized like we
literally had an administration try to open a Ministry of truth.
We, you know, they, they, they cancelled it.
Nina Jenkins. I don't remember what they were
calling. I was like the Disinformation

(01:21:22):
Bureau or something like that. Yeah, I forget.
I remember what? I forget the title, but yeah,
she. So I felt like we were really,
really close to losing our Republic because I've always
thought there were three amendments that kept us free
really in the Bill of Rights, the 1st, the 2nd and the 4th.

(01:21:42):
And for many people, you may notbe that familiar with the 4th
because it doesn't exist anymore.
Really. It's the it's the right to be
safe in your person property andeffects from unreasonable
searches and seizures from the government without a warrant
issued by a judge or magistrate upon probable cause.

(01:22:05):
Well, they started gutting that with war on drugs.
They started making exceptions to the warrant requirement.
The Supreme Court did. And then when 911 happened and
the Patriot Act passed, they gutted it even more.
And that's what Edward Snowden told us about.
They're looking at all your information like it should apply

(01:22:28):
to our digital property as well.And we'd have no digital
privacy. We have no digital privacy from
the companies that, you know, weclick yes on the terms without
reading them. But the government is using that
in order to completely avoid the4th Amendment.

(01:22:50):
And I use this as an example because it's very clear we are
searched without a warrant everytime we go on a flight.
The the TSA is unconstitutional to me.
You cannot require someone without probable cause to open
up your bag and show me everything you have.
But it got us used to not worrying about our 4th Amendment

(01:23:14):
rights. And then most young people who
were born, you know, who are younger, who have been alive in
the digital age, only they don'thave any expectation of privacy.
And in fact, they do the opposite.
They want everybody in the worldto know everything they're doing
as long as it paints them in a positive light.
Or they can come and have a tantrum.
It's one or the other. Either oh, look at how great my

(01:23:36):
life is, or Oh my God, look at how terrible.
My life. I bet most of them would be
willing to give up their 4th Amendment right?
They'd be like, that's not important.
I'd rather this. I'd rather I'd rather this,
this, this and. This.
I'd rather be safe. Yeah.
Yeah. I'm not lying.
Maybe on the plane thing, I'm willing to talk about it, but
you know, I haven't really thought about it in that way.
But so our 4th Amendment literally doesn't exist so

(01:23:57):
anymore. And they've been trying to chip
away and some states are are making some progress, I think on
the second. But really what keeps us free is
that we have a free mind and we have the ability to speak about
things when they go wrong. And that's the First Amendment.
And so when I really saw the threat to these fundamental

(01:24:18):
rights that the Democrat Party was posing, I said, I can't not
say anything. I have to do something.
But I think I, I recall a momentwhere, you know, I really had to
struggle with the fact that my life was controlled by fear.
Up until 2020, my entire life, most of the decisions I made

(01:24:41):
were about security, safety, comfort.
And you think that's definitely being applied today to this
point on the demo from the Democratic?
Oh totally 100%. I'm just making.
Sure, we emphasize that. Yeah, 100% it's all fear based
and you know, exploring my own faith and and getting a
connection to the creator. I recall a day where I said I'm

(01:25:04):
done and I screamed it out on myfarm in the mid to nobody to the
air. I'm done being afraid.
You're not getting my fear anymore.
And and then I said, OK, no morefear.
I have to speak up because I feel like if at the time when I
started writing this, we were, Iwas expecting a, a second Biden

(01:25:26):
term. It was way before the
substitution, the the democracy substitution that we had at the
last minute, very democratic. Yeah, very democratic.
But and, and, and she wouldn't have been better.
In fact, she'd have been worse, I think on the on this and many
things, both sides. Should be able to agree on that,
but they won't. No, they never will.

(01:25:47):
You know, we're just racist and misogynistic because we wouldn't
vote for a black woman, even though I voted for the black
woman to be my governor. But she was a Republican, so you
don't hear anything about that. And she didn't.
Win that's the other thing I wasgoing to ask you about but we we
you know again so much to talk to you about we'll we'll
definitely I'll definitely have to have you back on for sure

(01:26:07):
but. Yeah, but so that's the point is
I, I let go of the fear. I was like, I have to do
something to help save the country that I love.
And I knew that if we had another four years of Democrats,
it would be lost, you know? And so I rushed really to get
the book out. And I spent a lot of time going
around talking to people, mostlyto try to help people, help

(01:26:30):
someone they know. Wake up.
Most of the people who are stillin the cult, you know, who are
still strong Democrats, I think they have a hard time hearing my
message, you know, although I, Ihave heard other people who are
Democrats, but not way out on the fringe.

(01:26:52):
So, you know, I kind of feel that way, but I don't feel like
I can speak up. And so maybe they'd be open to
it and maybe my book could give them some, you know, help and
support and for them to understand, you know, you know,
because another reason I wrote it is so that people who are
waking up know they're not alone.
You know, it's a really like, I still don't feel like I fit

(01:27:16):
anywhere, you know, And and thatI think is a really scary place
sometimes to put yourself because we are communal in we
want connection. We want a community.
And it's hard when you sort of give up what you had as your
community for a very long time and and try to find a new one.

(01:27:38):
And especially in a time where as we were talking about before,
like there's so much less in person opportunity to have
community in the way that we used to.
So. Latch on to that latch on to it
for sure. Yeah, any way they.
Can and if they, if the Democratic Party is their their

(01:27:59):
safe spot, they're going to staywith them.
Yeah, So that's what really, youknow, was the moment I I decided
to write the book. And then, you know, I wrote it
and now what I realize and, you know, it's, I understand it, but
a lot of people don't read very much books much anymore.

(01:28:20):
So I'm trying to, you know, I'm doing my best to think of ways I
can get this message out. And I love having conversations
like this. I hate sitting in front of a
camera talking to the camera, you know what I mean?
Like it's just. Like I knew most of my stuff.
It's it, I didn't like it. And I'm getting used to it
because as you can tell, I can talk to we both can talk, but

(01:28:42):
but but I go ahead. You're saying that you enjoy the
conversations. Yeah, yeah.
And I'm just trying to, you know, figure out other ways that
I can help help get the message out, you know, And my biggest
thing is, and I think I put thisin an e-mail to you that like, I
really want us to get back to a point that people who have

(01:29:03):
difference of opinion, even if they're very big differences of
opinion, can talk to one anotherin a respectful manner that, you
know, doesn't assume the person is morally inferior because they
differently and remind us of those things we have in common.
And how we can, you know, be howwe can start looking at each

(01:29:25):
other as humans again, as opposed to a member of a
different tribe, essentially. And so that's part of, you know,
the goal now for me. I mean, you referenced a lot of,
you know, you know, Orwell and you know, my favorite book is
Brave New World, you know, Huxley and all that.
And you reference that and then you think about like The Time
Machine, you know, when, when they went out and then the two

(01:29:48):
human species had like completely divided off.
And, and I think about that all the time.
Like what's this going to be like, you know, in 50 years?
What's going to be like in 200 years?
And are we going to still be, are we going to know the United
States is, is what we know it as?
But I know you're, you're pressed on time.
And I and I wanted to just ask you, if not because it's recent

(01:30:09):
and it's was the biggest event that happened.
How did you feel as a former Democrat, somebody who
understands the indoctrination at the reaction to Charlie's
death and Charlie Kirk's death? How do you feel when you watched
people celebrate it, when you watched people like joke and
area? It was something where you're

(01:30:30):
like, I made the right decision.Did it like solidify that or
were you just like not surprisedat all?
I had to ask you about Charlie. I just.
I know and I get it. And you know, the, the reaction
was quite frankly, very horrificand saddening to me, but not
surprising. You know, I made the right
choice and I understand where where that comes from based on

(01:30:55):
where they are. And I think, you know, this is
this is the part that is really,really challenging with those, I
think waking those up, those people up who are still
indoctrinated and on the left. And that is that they've gotten
to a place where they believe that speech in and of itself is
violence, that if you say something mean, you are

(01:31:20):
committing a violent act againstan individual.
And, you know, that is completely inconsistent with the
First Amendment of our Constitution.
And I, I respect, you know, I defend their right to say what
they said. I believe that that's
constitutional speech. But it is very much we have to

(01:31:43):
get back to a place where we don't other people based on
their beliefs in a way that allows horrific acts to be
committed. And, you know, it, it is
somewhat chilling to me because I, you know, I, I obviously have
nowhere near the reach that Charlie Kirk did.
And I didn't know him personally, but I'm kind of

(01:32:04):
trying to do the same thing thathe did.
And that is to have conversations with whoever will
have them so that, you know, truth can see the light, you
know, and again, you know, just like with President Trump, they
took sound bites out of context and they spun what Charlie, who

(01:32:25):
he was and what he was saying. You know, I never, you know,
I've watched a lot of his speeches since he was
assassinated and he never was disrespectful.
He always wanted like, you know,even if he was like talking to
someone who is trans, you know, and he completely disagreed with

(01:32:46):
the whole thing. He thought it was social
contagion, you know, and it wasn't against God and all those
things. He always ended with a prayer
for that person to be happy to accept themselves, whatever it
was. And so, you know, I, I do worry
about that in, in that way, and I'm really glad I'm out of it,

(01:33:09):
you know, and I don't have to and I don't, I'm not afraid of
the pressure, you know, I don't care.
I, they can't affect me. Whatever they say about me, I
don't care anymore. And you know, I would pray for
them to love themselves too. You know, that's sort of where
it all comes from. I think is you know, is doing

(01:33:34):
that, but I think it highlight Iwanted to highlight something
else as you talked about, you know, The Time Machine and the
two sets of humans. I think that we based on the
social media and media, media and community ecosystems people
live in. We literally live in different
realities now and it's only going to get worse.

(01:33:55):
AII don't we didn't even get to that at all, But what is where
is that taking us? I think that we're, we use
different terms for things. We are starting to have
different languages almost. And, and so I feel like it's
important that we continue to have these conversations and,

(01:34:17):
you know, start from a place of love and kindness and
compassion. And what I was going to say
before, you know, when they get to the isms, when they get to
the phobia and they start throwing it at you, it, it is
often because you push them intoa corner and they can't get out
of it. And even though you're not a

(01:34:39):
threat to their literal physicalsurvival, you are a threat to
the survival of the delusion that they live in.
And you have activated the reptilian survival brain at the
in the brain stem that is in pushing them into fight or
flight. And they are pushing at you as

(01:35:01):
much as they can to get you away.
Because their subconscious knowsthat if they admit what you are
saying is true, the entire Houseof Cards could fall.
You would be pulling on the sweater and all it would come
completely undone. Because that's what happened to
me. And I used to react pretty

(01:35:22):
strongly at Jamie when he would push me into these corners until
I finally couldn't anymore. And so you know that, or you
should know that when they get to that point, you're getting
through, but you're not going toever get them to admit, hey,
you're right, or hey, I'll look into that.

(01:35:43):
Not in that conversation most likely, but you may have planted
a seed and that may lay dormant for a while, but then at some
point may germinate and then bloom into a free mind again.
So I mean that I think is the important thing to remember.
The other thing just quickly from the book that I'll say, and

(01:36:05):
then I really do have to wrap up, get to my next thing, but
try to access the true compassion that you know that
person has, knowing that the compassion has been manipulated
and weaponized and all of those things.
But you know, like you say, try to get them back away from the

(01:36:26):
selective compassion. And what about those 95% of
girls you know, what about or those kind of things.
And finally, ask questions. Don't try to tell them anything
because they if you're not the expert or what you're saying is
contradicting expert, we're going to dismiss it out of hand.

(01:36:47):
But if you can ask them questions, you know, for the
trans issue, I always ask, hey, you know, I'm really interested.
Can you tell me what studies yourely on that show that it
improves outcomes for for youth?And they don't like that either.
But again, sometimes, but, but at least you're trying to be

(01:37:10):
sciency, right? And you're, you're respecting
their view and wanting to know where they come from.
And again, they might react and say, well, you're just
transphobic and you don't believe that.
But then they might go to their computer and go, hey, I, I
really should know this. So it's not about.
And again, don't take it personally.

(01:37:30):
And you know where it is, Baja honor and all those things and
just try to be. And this was the the word that
often gets people when I talk totry to be patient.
Patient and I've had to wear Oh my gosh, Lisa my I that's I've
that's probably the best thing to end on is because I've doing
what I've been doing here for not that long.

(01:37:51):
I mean at first I was just combatant and you can't you just
can't do that. I mean I was, you know, on on
social media all day like firingaway at people and you just
can't I mean it just it's pointless.
I mean, firstly, it's, it's, it's not going to do anything.
And so I appreciate you saying what you did there.
Again, I have so many more things, but I, I let me plug the
book again for sure. And because I've got most people

(01:38:12):
that are that most of my people are, you know, like minded to
us. But I do have some that I talk
to every once in a while that come on and they're, they're
not. And then you've got people that
are also worried about friends and family that may be going
through this. So I put up a bunch of reels, I
put up a bunch of things, but but it's, I mean, is it Amazon
primarily or is it your website you want to go and plug that

(01:38:34):
real quick for me. My website
isdeprogrammingdemocrats.com. Programming democrats.com OK.
But you can. Amazon is probably primarily
where people buy the book. Barnes and Noble as well.
It's available there and I don'thave a preference wherever you
works best for you to buy your books.

(01:38:55):
I, I Amazon was very simple and and it came right up and it was
there. But again, it deprogramming
Democrats and uneducating the elites.
Write it down. Go get it.
Look at all my stuff. And you can always message me
everybody if if you want want the link for some reason.
If you can't find it on Amazon, let me know.

(01:39:18):
But you know, I don't know how to how to end this.
I have so much more we can talk about it.
So hopefully we can do this again.
So. Certainly we'll find it, we'll
find a time to do it again. And and the way I always like to
to end it, Ryan is with some some optimistic hope because I
see a lot of people waking up. I do.
And I see the thing with Charliewoke a lot of Democrats up.

(01:39:43):
And I see more and more Democrats waking up when they
see the way the media or the government is framing something
and it it's inconsistent with their own BBC, the other
experience. Yeah.
And and so I don't think we're that far away from getting to a
point where enough people are awake that we can start

(01:40:04):
demanding some accountability from our elected representatives
again. And I think we're and I think
we're pretty close. And this kind of conversation
and I see I'm seeing this kind of conversation a lot more now
happening all over the place a little some some larger scales
than ours, but some lower scalesthan ours.
And hopefully we can just continue to grow together as a

(01:40:25):
team. So thank you so much.
My pleasure, thank. You yeah, I know you got to run
and keep spreading the word so. Will do you.
Too. I can't wait to talk to you
again, so thank you so much. My pleasure.
All right. Thanks, guys.
Love you all. Bye.
All you had to do is just listen.
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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Inside the Democrat Machine — Why Former Insider Lisa Ekman Walked Away