Shawn Farquhar and Jon Ornoy. Lost in the Shuffle.

Welcome back to 'season two' of Steve Faulkner's Magic Show podcast. Today, we’re diving into an absolute gem of an interview with the legendary Shawn Farquhar, a multiple award-winning FISM world champion magician, and John Ornoy, the brilliant director. writer and producer of the new movie "Lost in the Shuffle."

In this episode, you'll hear about the fascinating journey of creating this magical documentary, which explores Shawn’s theory on playing cards, performance and an unsolved murder, diving into the world of magic with insights from icons like Juan Tamariz, Michael Vincent, Alexandra Duvivier, and Richard Turner.

We chat about everything from the creative process to the joys of performing and the incredible dedication required to make a movie about magic. Plus, there's a bit of fun with some behind-the-scenes stories and a whole lot of inspiration for aspiring magicians.

Don't miss out on this delightful conversation. And if you haven’t yet, do check out onlinemagic.co for some amazing magic training and visit lostintheshuffle.film to find out about upcoming screenings and grab some fantastic merch.

So, grab your cards and let’s get into it! 🎉

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hi, welcome to the return of Steve Faulkner's Magic Show, the podcast,
season two, let's call it season two, rather than Steve couldn't get his shit
together and completely forgot how to do it all.
Good news is I can do it all again now, but you might not know that because
this is a lovely interview, again, not because of me, with Sean Farquhar,

(00:21):
multiple award-winning FISM world champion
magician and John Ornoy
who has directed written and produced the movie the
new movie Lost in the Shuffle which is such a gift for
us you have to watch it it's a movie about magic playing cards Sean's journey
into his theory on the unsolved murder linked to the design on playing cards

(00:44):
and about performing we've got interviews and input from Juan Tamaritz Michael Vincent,
Alexandra de Vuvier, and Richard Turner.
I remembered them all without looking at it. I remembered four things. That's good, isn't it?
But I'll let them tell you all about it. But the audio isn't as I would like
it to be. This was nobody's fault.

(01:06):
You know, John and Sean are very,
very busy people. We worked with what we had. We didn't have a studio.
There were a lack of mics and things like that. So I have done my best to clean it up.
You do get used to it. It's not awful, but at the beginning,
you might sort of have to settle into it a little bit.
So please do bear with it so first of all thank you so much for sean and john for doing this.

(01:27):
In this sure not they don't only talk about the film it's
interesting because john came into this as a magic fan as a lay person and has
really gotten in deep into the magic world but sean also talks about the creative
process how he comes up with routines how we sometimes get it wrong when we
imagine how spectators think about our magic the challenges he had with performing magic on the street,

(01:48):
which he did for the film, working with the other magicians that I've talked
about, his vulnerability and all the good stuff that I love hearing people talk
about and the creative process that John talks about making a movie.
It's very inspirational when you hear about the work that goes into this.
And I just found this really enlightening. It's a lovely conversation. I hope you think so too.

(02:10):
Let's get on with it. Before we do this, the usual things do
check out onlinemagic.co that's my training site
900 videos everybody thinks it's great read the trustpilot reviews
onlinemagic.co and of course lostintheshuffle.film lostintheshuffle.film
which is where you'll be able to find out about the screenings there's one coming
up a time of recording at the magic circle but they're playing at festivals

(02:32):
and all over the place and at conventions so do check it out so thank you very
much here is my interview with john ornoy and Sean Farquhar.
You can tell that you've been working
together a lot just by your familiar comments. We know all those lines.
Yeah. Yeah. Great. I bet you've got a good, well, have you got a good relationship

(02:53):
still? It could go either way, couldn't it?
We've spent some time together.
Yeah. Yeah. It seems like yesterday, but it's, yeah, we're in 2024,
2019 when we started. That's insane.
Well, it is. and being a teacher of magicians and talking
to a lot of magicians obviously it's inspiring when you

(03:13):
talk to filmmakers and the time that goes into such things and we will sort
of um obviously go into this more in a minute but you know i know people that
have worked on a trick for a week and gone that's not for me you can't make
movies like that it's not probably the best approach,
Yeah. Well, being a horror fan, I've seen a few.

(03:36):
Blair Witch, the first one of all of them. They started there.
It was like, we'll just figure it out as we go along. Absolutely.
And I want to, so just, I will top and tail this obviously with a,
with a recorded thing, but we've got something very rare.
We've got a feature length documentary movie.
So that's a, that's a, a big box tick for me about playing cards magic and.

(04:00):
But so much more than that, which I'd like you to go into.
You know, we've got a magician, such as Juan Tamaritz, Alexandra de Vuvier,
Michael Vinson, Richard Turner, and you, Sean, our guide, narrator, storyteller.
And I'm going to say star of the film, of Lost in the Shuffle.

(04:20):
And thanks for talking to me. And we've got director, writer,
and producer, John Orne.
I'm not going to say Joe Orne. For so long, I read the email with Joe.
And it keeps slipping out so expect it i know
it did on one email the other day i'll forgive it no worries you
might have to forgive me again when i go way back way back
right yeah yeah yeah we've been

(04:42):
good friends for a long time let me introduce joe joe orny
so john or
not i'd like to start with you i've found this really
difficult to sum up even
after reading the synopsis as a a movie
it there's a lot going on so i'm gonna

(05:03):
cop out and ask you to do
that for the people for the people listening
i have seen it i'm not one of those kind of what's all this about we watched
it i watched it with my partner a non-magician and selling her the idea she
was open to watching it as well but you know to say to someone who's a non-magician
no it's about playing cards it can feel like a hard sell which is unfair because

(05:23):
like a lot of magic tricks and the magic world,
there is so much more going on here and more to this.
So, John, just tell us, you know, about the movie Lost in the Shuffle.
The movie is kind of born of my love of magic, but I've always been in the audience.
I've never learned any tricks. At some point, I might have a bit more time when the film's done.

(05:43):
But this has been my way of sort of interacting with this world.
And that's kind of a cool thing about making films is you get to sort of dive
deep into something that maybe you didn't have an experience with.
And you get to meet all these awesome people like the amount of number of people
i've met over the last five years doing this.
Hundreds. Probably close to a thousand or something. It's been quite something.
And it comes from my appreciation of the art form.

(06:07):
And, you know, as a filmmaker, I do rely, you know, even though I've been the
engine of this project, I do rely on so many other people to invest their time
and their skills and their expertise to make it what it is.
But i'm really fascinated by magicians who have to
do all these things together you know i'm a jack-of-all-trades but
you here as a magician you have to be an expert in so many different skills

(06:29):
and to bring them all together in a seamless kind of way that makes it
look easy and i think that's really fascinating and i think
more people i hope more people will develop an appreciation for that after watching
the film and i'm also really interested in that relationship between magicians
and playing cards because it is such a simple object for most of us it's inert
you know it It sits in a junk drawer until it's time to play poker or bridge

(06:50):
or something and then goes back in that drawer and we don't think much about it.
But given that object, put that object in the hands of certain gifted people
and it becomes this endless instrument of wonder and awe.
And the idea that there's an untold number of magic card tricks out there already
and an untold number of card tricks still to come, I think it's pretty fascinating

(07:10):
to think of that all of that can be drawn from one very simple object that you
can carry in your pocket.
I wish everybody thought like you, John.
Maybe the film will make that happen. Well, yes.
And looking at your back catalogue, John, you know, you've made films about stand-up comedians.
You've made a film about the kind of niche skill of mannequin dressing.

(07:34):
You seem to be someone that, and I think magic and stand-up comedy,
even though we see it all the time, it's a kind of subculture.
It's a very specific thing.
So is that part of it as well? Is it a way of kind of you, as you said, being part of that?
Yeah, I think so. Like, I mean, I'm never going to be a stand-up comic either,

(07:55):
but it's another art form that I love. I'm always going to be the audience to that one.
I'm not going up on stage, but getting in there and getting to kind of spend time in that world.
And, you know, once again, hopefully share an appreciation with other people
of just how hard it is to go up on stage and just rip open your soul if you're
doing the job well and make people laugh and,

(08:15):
you know, kind of commiserate with the painful parts of your life as a lot of comics do.
That is a gift and a challenge and not everyone can do that and so i think it
was you know a conscious choice necessarily focus on the arts but it just kind
of seems to be happening that way.
Yeah and and sean it was it was such
a breath of fresh air to hear you early on in

(08:36):
the film talk about the the risk of performing a trick
you know you you you've got the thing of getting it wrong and and the nerves
of that and and quite often we don't talk about that enough and we will go into
to it but you know this idea of you working so there's so many strands to this
film but you working towards performing this this routine but before that I'd

(08:58):
like to I'm really interested.
About you meeting and about coming on board with this for both of you really
because as a filmmaker you must get people all the time coming up to you going
I've got this great idea and Sean as a magician we get that all the time and
sometimes we get excited someone wants to make a film and it never happens all
right so so we we learn to kind of brush it off and Sean what was it,

(09:19):
Tell me about the kind of the catalyst, the first meeting of this and what made
you kind of jump on board with it.
So John approached me, tell my side, but then he'll tell his because his is way more exciting.
When he asked me to do the film, I did a little research. I found that movie
that you're talking about, all joking aside.
And one of the stars was Richard Lett. And Richard and I go back.

(09:41):
30 years we worked okay we worked together doing
the williams lake comedy roundup festival
in the middle of we worked in a car dealership parking
lot in the back of a pickup truck that was the stain they put a pa system on
the back of a pickup truck in a car lot and we did our show and i remember looking
at him going say we've made it to the big time haven't we when i when i watched

(10:06):
the film, I just looked and said, gee,
he made Richard look so great in the film and act well, and just everything
was cool about it. And I thought, this guy's really got it together.
And we went and hung out, had a few conversations.
John pitched a whole bunch of ideas, movies that it really didn't have an interest in.
He wanted like, you know, the biography thing, the tour thing,

(10:27):
the type of film that most people would start with.
And then we finally, well, Well, tell them how you and I met,
John. That's the best part.
Before, Sean's got the wonderful theater that he has now. He had a temporary
little pop-up space not far from here.
He sat about 15 people, I think, and I just happened to see an ad for it.

(10:48):
My birthday was coming up, and so my parents and I went to see the show,
and I had an awesome time.
And I did something I'd never done before, and I looked up the performer after
a couple days later, and I sent them an email and said, can I buy you a beer?
I promise not to ask you how you do any of your shtick.
And yeah, that just kind of rolled from there. And so, as Sean mentioned,
we just started hanging out.

(11:09):
And as a filmmaker, brain is always kind of looking for opportunities.
And then one day he pulled out his laptop and showed me this little PowerPoint
that he put together for his court card conspiracy story.
And immediately grabbed me as that hook because I love the idea that this these
murder mystery clues could have been hidden in plain sight under all of our
noses and hundreds of millions of cards, decks of cards.

(11:30):
For like 500 years and no one had seen it before. It was a really good jumping
off point for all of this.
I planned to do a, like a Ted talk at the circle and maybe at the 4F convention.
That's why I was building this little, you know, PowerPoint thing.
And I never got to do it anywhere.
Instead, I did it for John at a noodle box and he went, that's a movie.

(11:51):
Do you know what that it's so useful to plan talks and things like that,
because it does make you get into that zone of I've got something to share.
And, and, and I think if you do it in a concise way, which I'm absolutely horrendous
at, as anybody who watches my reviews will and stuff on my channel will tell you.
But it must have cut through, you know.

(12:14):
And I don't want to give too much away, but I think it's important for people
to know the different strands of this.
You've got this idea of this cold case, medieval cold case murder.
You've got playing cards as a thing that we kind of dive into.
And your excitement is very contagious.
You know, Helen said when we were watching it, He's so enthusiastic,
which is so lovely to see, as I would be, you know, looking at playing cards

(12:39):
being made in that historical way.
And then, so you've got the story, you've got this idea of you building towards
performing, you know, at the place where, you know, your theory,
and you can talk as much about that, happened.
And I just wondered, well, both of you really, that's a lot to kind of wind together.

(13:01):
Ever and i think it could potentially in the wrong hands had been either a mess
or quite dull there was a reviewer wrote and said uh the multiple strands coming together were more,
cohesive than they were supposed to be or should
be allowed to be or something like that right it made more it made
more sense than it had the right to be yeah so that was the highest compliment i think

(13:22):
we received so far yeah there was definitely a long
process getting there we did about eight or
nine months of editing and taking down you
know very large kind of because you i had a treatment
going into it so i basically had scripted out the entire film scene
by scene how i thought everything was going to flow and that's what we used to
shoot and that was sort of our guide for shooting but once i

(13:42):
sat down with a lot of the editor and we started kind of putting it together
it all largely went out the window and editing
is just sort of telling the story all over again
because we had a pretty good idea of what the material was going to be this
wasn't like a verite thing where life was happening and we had to run along
and catch up with it and then kind of have one take at everything this all you
know happened 500 years ago so it was very easy to kind of be controlled but

(14:05):
even then once we started editing that kind of storytelling process.
Started all over again and it took a while and a few different test screenings
to to get it to a place where it made sense to other people because you you
know the editor and i become so immersed in the material we know it so well
everything makes sense to us but you have to show it to someone else who has
no familiarity and they also have to be able to follow the story and keep up with everything.

(14:28):
And French royalty lineage is kind of muddled, so it makes it even more exciting.
We left out all the really weird parts. The idea of kind of test screening it
and working not on just what you think and what the audience thinks is,
again, something I think a lot of card magicians could learn from.
Sean, there's this lovely scene, just building on that, with you sitting on

(14:49):
your bed coming up with this idea of this trick.
And I do want to talk about the story as well, the medieval story in France.
But you've seen these other magicians.
They've talked to you about their favorite plots in magic. you want to kind
of weave them in in some way in this storytelling trick which is a you know.

(15:09):
Again inspirational but you're sitting on the bed
you're going oh we could do this and this and this and there's this kind of organic process
which i think a lot of us love because we we kind of it makes
us feel like it's all right to do that you haven't got to plan everything but again
with the with the rehearsal of the trick
and the film and both of these things i wondered for
both of you for you sean is that

(15:30):
your usual process is it just we could do this this this or you were
kind kind of sit down and plan and then and then john i
think you've just said you you had
it all planned out but you allowed it to also grow so
so sean first of all is that is that when you're thinking of a you
know you're a world champion when you're thinking of that is it a planning thing
my process is different all the time a lot of times it's what you saw where

(15:54):
i i start methodically laying out and take pieces but other times i'll create
something just on the inspiration of finding some doodad or some move that doesn't
work the way I thought it did. And I'm just inspired to create something.
But my best stuff, well, a perfect example, my trick, Sheer Luck,
which has been featured like on Britain's Got Talent, America's Got Talent, Asia's Got Talent.

(16:17):
It's been on so many shows and helped so many magicians, makes me thrilled.
It was a mistake. It was me making a joke at the expense of David Stone at a 4F convention.
It started with, I bought a book that I was going to use for an idea that I thought was cool.
And it had a lottery ticket in it. I pulled out the lottery ticket,

(16:38):
scratched it, and it won, which ruined the joke that I wanted to do.
So then I bought another of the same book, knowing that if I got a second one,
the chances of me winning twice.
But I did win twice. So all of a sudden, I had no joke with the lottery,
and I had two pocketbooks.
So I went, I'll put one in my pocket, and the hand went across.
I'd seen a friend of mine years ago do a thing from a Linking Ring magazine.

(16:58):
I thought, this is the funny gag.
At the end of it, all that went in my head was, that'd be so cool if the book was blank.
Blank so it wasn't any process at all it was just a
well the trick was funny it was a good gag it was
so good the 4f magicians nobody told david stone there
was an extra book and i never showed it at the end there was no no blank book
at that time it was just me doing a book test and he looked at me and said that's

(17:20):
the best book test i've ever seen and it'd be four months later when we appeared
in linking ring magazine back to back and my book was open he told me you bastard
it was It's like, yay! Right.
So some are instant. Some are, I've got a magic trick I've been working on for almost 14 years now.
And I pull it out all the time and try to figure out a better method.

(17:40):
And I put it in front of audiences and it sometimes is okay,
sometimes fails and sometimes rocks.
But because it isn't consistently great, I just keep putting it on the shelf,
looking for a new way, trying to improve, find when technology improves or my knowledge grows.
Not the smartest guy. I am always looking for, you know, I go through books
and books on a daily basis trying to find stuff.

(18:02):
So, yeah, it's long, short. I don't have a single process, but the one you saw
in the film is my favorite of all of them because it allows me to take pieces
from different spots, try to make something new and create some piece of art.
And I really appreciated Sean's kind of vulnerability in letting us put that
on camera because, you know, he has a reputation. He's a world champion.

(18:23):
And, you know, the fact that he was comfortable and allowed us to show him iterating
and not getting it right, I think is really cool because, you know,
we see people when you see people performing, it looks so easy,
you know, you think there's nothing to it.
But the fact that, you know, even people who are experts in what they do will
mess up along the way and will have those embarrassing moments,

(18:44):
I think is good for everyone to see.
Magician and whatever field you're in that they're messing up is always part of the process.
Yeah it's so important and it's i'm not
going to bang on about myself but it's it's an interesting point
in my lecture i show a short video of
me screwing stuff up on stage to highlight that
thing of look it's so this is part of the process this is

(19:06):
really important and that's not the
the interesting thing for me the interesting thing is the people that come up
to me often say say it's so refreshing because nobody talks
about that and it's not inspiring for people
to be bulletproof because we're not you know we need to know that it's okay
to to be nervous as you talked about sean in that you know as a world champion
you know we see that that that tip of the iceberg but to actually see that process

(19:31):
and go i'm gonna you know i'm gonna nervous about this how am i gonna feel is
it's really really important and john i think with with your Your process,
and I've got to be careful because I'm a bit of a film nerd,
so I don't want to geek out too much on it, and a creativity nerd.
So when you've got that in front of you, like you said, you had it all planned

(19:52):
out, many of us get really intimidated by that to the point where we don't do it.
And I'd love to know what it looks like for you.
And I'm not saying it's the same every time. When you have all this stuff and
how do you, I mean, even practically start mapping it out and what's your mindset going into it?
That was a long process. I mean, and I was definitely, it was a silver lining

(20:13):
of COVID is that I had a lot of time to sit at home by myself and work on all
this research and the planning and everything.
I worked with a story editor. So like I knew I had these kind of three or four
main kind of thrusts of the film and things that I wanted to cover.
And then, yeah, I worked with a story editor to kind of just have some of the
balance ideas off of, because as much as, you know, like I talked before,

(20:34):
it's definitely a collaborative kind of thing.
And if you spend too much time just sort of immersed in your
own ideas you lose the forest for the trees and so
having people to bounce ideas off of like i could never
have edited this film on my own never mind just not having you know sufficient
technical skills to do it fast enough but just to be totally immersed by myself
in my own head with all this material just you know wasn't when for me other

(20:58):
people can work that way i need to have someone to bounce the ideas off of to
go like like, hey, is this stupid?
Is this brilliant? Can we try this? Let's try this.
And to bring in, you know, when I have collaborators, it's working with those
people because I value their opinions.
And I know that they're bringing their experience and their creativity to it.
And they're going to think of things that I'm not going to because they have

(21:18):
a different frame of reference. They're coming from a different place.
The editor didn't spend, you know, the months on the road with us,
isn't precious about the material the same way that I am because he doesn't
know how much money we spent to get to that place.
And you know if we're gonna cut that scene then
you know that's all that money is just out the window and so having
someone to kind of help shape the idea for me

(21:39):
is kind of crucial and then doing the test screenings and having
other people to bounce ideas off of is all really an important
part of the process to kind of i like the kind of
da vinci idea that you know the the sculpture is hidden
inside the block of marble and you're just chiseling
away and finding it i think the filmmaking process particularly editing is
the exact same thing you know we come back with this huge amount of

(22:00):
marble in the form of all that material that we shot and then
we have to find the piece of art that's inside and talking
about that that marble for you sean
for both of you really i suppose but this talking about the process of this
yes you had it mapped out but allowed things to happen with you in the story
sean you first i'd like to talk about the genesis of this really unique kind

(22:22):
of niche way of looking at playing cards and the story this medieval story that's woven into it,
where that started, but also...
How, for both of you, did it, did it grow from what it was? What, what was added?
What happened with it? That was later on. You went, Oh, that's a good idea.
I'd love to hear about that.
I think it's still growing. I have an insatiable appetite to, to question things.

(22:45):
And I really love it. The incubus for this whole thing started because of semi-automatic card tricks.
Steve did a talk at the 4F convention. Yeah, Steve Beam. Sorry,
I didn't mention this. I'm just thinking Steve is my friend.
So Steve Bateman did a little talk, did a performance. Queen turns around and it was crazy.

(23:07):
He said, here's what we're going to do. Everybody take out your four queens,
put them in order, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And at the end, this queen was facing the other way from the other queens.
And I was like, what the hell?
How do you do that? And I'm looking around everybody else. I'm going,
everybody's deck. And I was like, what? And then he goes, it's in every deck. I'm like, right.
Sure it is. And it's been there my entire life.

(23:28):
And I've never seen that. That's what you're telling me. And he's like,
yep. I'm like, and that just literally made me go, let's look for more things.
And why do they have one-eyed jacks? And what are they holding in their hands?
And the king, king of hearts. And all these, it was just a fun little exploration for a while.
And then the infatuation kind of wore for a little bit.

(23:50):
And then that opportunity came when I was sitting in the airport. I saw the little symbol.
And this moment, it was a janitor. He literally just asked me to lift my feet
while he swept underneath in basically an empty airport.
And I said, can you tell me what the flag is? He said, oh, it's the,
you know, the flag of the region, Brittany. And I was like, what? Oh, wow.
And it was like, all these cogs just went together.

(24:12):
And it was like, hey, I need to do this. This is, this is so cool.
And I began my little PowerPoint building it into something going,
how many more things? But even after I'd done that.
And as John was doing research into medieval history, and he's going,
you know, she had six kids.
And I'm going, that explains the six little symbols that are in.
Oh, my God, really? He said, yeah.

(24:33):
One by one, each step, as we talked about more things, and I started pulling
up more books. I have an entire shelf of just all collecting playing cards now.
I had one book on the history of playing cards, and now I've got an entire shelf
of it because it was like, okay, got to read this.
This person said that, and the monk disagrees with that.
And it's like yeah it was it was just a

(24:54):
deep deep rabbit hole that i went down and and
john guided by going hey have you heard about this and this guy
actually ended up being locked in a cage what a
cage sweet yeah i
i love i love the way those little things come up when i've read
interviews of documentary makers just
those gifts that you get not not just in the filming but in the research as

(25:16):
well which are and and the thing of you know someone showing you a trick there's
something about being open to being inspired like that you know you see for
a lot of people they'd see and go oh that'd be cool and then forget about it
or although that could be linked with that and then forget about it but some
of us have that that thing which which can be a curse.
You know when we're doing that instead of making money you
know i'm gonna look into this i'm gonna spend three days doing

(25:39):
this you know or three years doing this and people
around you're going you really have to pay the bills steve so yeah
and and i suppose i'll
because you've kind of asked answered the
the question with the the organic process of that
john but when you you chose the magicians alexandra devivier
michael vince and richard turner juan tamariz you

(26:01):
know for magicians we go yes yes yeah you know
but but for you there first
there are so many magicians to talk about even when you're talking about vernon
and nerd names you know you could have opened the whole thing you've got marlo
you you know brother john so so was that an exercising sort of constraint what
was that like and and i don't know which one of you kind of made those decisions

(26:23):
to a choose those magicians and get them on board and what was that process for you
i left that one in sean's hands this was definitely his world and it was going
to be you know his name and his his connections that was gonna to make that
happen so we kind of talked about it but But they were all his choices.
And we sort of figured that we'd approach those people.

(26:44):
And then we had our other lists when those people would say,
no, we're busy. We don't want to do another film, blah, blah, blah.
And then to our pleasant surprise, we never had to go any deeper.
I love that. He literally said, pick your four favorite. We like them from these different regions.
And then when they say no, we'll look to the next four. And I was like, they said yes.

(27:06):
Well, I thought that. I thought,
You know, because we're all magicians. And even though we tend to get into it
because of ego, but not stay in it because of ego, but anybody gives us a chance
to waffle on about magic, we're going to do it.
And that is not, I'm not saying they're waffling, I'm saying,
but you will, you know, we don't get the chance so often.
Juan Pérez had just done the New York Times. We'd asked him and he said yes.

(27:29):
And then the New York Times article exploded.
He said he had over 700 requests for interviews and television shows,
and he was turning them all down, every one of them.
And John phoned me, he goes, you know, he's turning down everything.
Is he saying no to us now? Is he out of the film? I'm like, I don't think so.
I really think that he just wants to hang and have a conversation.

(27:50):
And we picked an early time for one. One's a late night person.
And John said, well, we'll do it in the evening, like seven o'clock.
I said, no, you haven't got it.
That's not late night for him. It's his morning.
And he showed up, which was just crazy. Just, yeah. Yeah.
And we figured we'd have like a half an hour conversation with them.
And it went hours upon hours.

(28:12):
And then after that, we went out for dinner and we still talked for hours. It was, yeah.
It was, yeah. All my guests. Yeah.
They were, without a doubt, the real stars of the film for me.
They all really were genuine.
None of them had any, you know, giant requests for anything.

(28:33):
Thing it was just put me down and ask me questions and
john had not my questions john had the questions he said these are things we
should ask to keep in line with the film i'm like that's great because if you
ask me it's just gonna be show me your double lift for the next hour richard
i'll just watch that it's like show me a second deal i can just watch the second
deal for the next two hours we'll just film that and i'd have been fine,

(28:55):
Yeah, there's a moment where we were watching it and I've always got cards next
to me wherever I am, same deal.
And you're sitting there with Richard Turner and he's showing you a second deal.
And I just reach for the cards. I'm like, hang on a minute.
I want to get that push off.
It's incredible. The moment it hit for me, I just about died because it was

(29:18):
like, oh my God, all my life I've been terrible at a second.
And when he literally held my hands and showed me. It was like night and day, really crazy.
Well, watching, there's a lot of edit for Alexander de Vivier on her wildcard.
She must have shown us 25 variations.
It was unbelievable. The depth that she had on just that one subject was just insane.

(29:42):
It's like, oh, and of course, there's my father's, of course.
You're like, yep, printing. I know that one. But then there's these ones.
And then we just kept going. It was just, yeah.
And Michael Vincent talking about ordering and chaos and the amount of the amount
of thought process that's gone into it and how he literally said it changed
his life and saved his life but his world you know changed because of that,

(30:03):
they were very what's the word authentic that's the word i want they were really
authentic they they they cared
about they talked about they they they were just yeah it was phenomenal.
It was. And I, and I think it can, I think as well, that can,
I mean, that's the, there's the old joke.
How do you get a magician to show you a hundred tricks, ask them to show you
one, you know, which, which I love, but again, for some people.

(30:27):
And I think that that can go the other way as well. And I was so pleased when
it didn't, it, it, it wasn't just, you know, hyperbole.
It, I, you know, Michael Vincent said, you know, about the, about Vernon talking
to him about the free, the three different types of audience.
And I was saying, so true. those people that are like show me
and just going into it knowing that that's true and that's

(30:47):
okay you know is is again for some
of us especially those getting into it really powerful stuff
i think there's a lot to learn from the
film from the perspective of the magicians mentoring they literally each one
of them teach in their segments it the murder mystery is all on top and cool
but But just as a magician going there and listening to my guests talking about,

(31:12):
you know, their career, their path,
their passion is it's really a learning lesson.
And from such a dichotomy of performers, they all have different styles.
They all have different audiences. It was really crazy good.
Yeah. And I've really I'm going to ask you both this question,
but I'm going to ask it to John first, because, you know, Michael talked about

(31:33):
this moment where and we all talk about that moment where you,
you lose the ability to enjoy magic in the same way.
For other reasons, it opens up a lot more. And for me, that's the bit I wanted.
But for you, you've gone from being someone who watches magic to saying to Sean,
I'm not going to ask you how it's done, to kind of being exposed to this world.

(31:55):
You've taken the red pill.
And I'd love to know how that's changed for you,
how your assumptions that so many people have about the magic world or no assumptions
at all and no clues but when i say to people about magic conventions they're
like what and when i say to people i review magic products they're like what
do you mean magic products you know the idea of magicians selling things you
know they so john what was your,

(32:19):
knowledge of that side of it going into it and and how
was it for you being opened up to that and be honest if there
was you know any challenges for that i wouldn't say
i've taken the red pill i've licked the red pill so i definitely went into it
like like i said at the beginning i thought it would be kind of silly i'm going
to be around some of the you know best musicians in the world and i'm not going

(32:41):
to learn anything but then i also don't want to lose that like i don't
delude myself i'm never going to get to the point where you know i'm not going
to be able to you know be amazed or you know watch anyone else's perform and
go like wow that was incredible But I also just like just being kind of slack-jawed across the board.
So for me, I think the appreciation that I developed, which I kind of knew was

(33:02):
there, but I learned more of and what I hope other people who maybe don't come
into the film as magic fans will learn is, you know,
Just what we guys were just talking about is just how hard it is and that it's
not just kind of the stereotypical pulling rabbits out of hats at a birthday
party, kid's birthday party kind of thing.
This is real art. This is real expression.

(33:25):
There's a reason why everyone does something differently because they are bringing
their own life experience and their own creativity to this one thing.
So even, you know, taking any one of these plots, each one of these people,
like part of the questions we ask them is like, how did you learn it? Who'd you learn it from?
And what have you done to make this your own? Like, how are you adding your

(33:45):
own, your own touch, your own flair to it?
And that's what I hope that that's certainly what I've taken away from it.
And that's what I hope other people take away from it as well,
is that it is a lot too. So even if you are kind of, you know,
taking someone else's, you know, ideas and you're building on them,
you are still taking that to the next level. And that's something that we do in all arts.
You know, the films that I make are heavily influenced by all the films that

(34:08):
I've watched and the things that I've loved and things that I want to bring to my own my own art.
And so I think that that's something that magicians do as well.
And that's what I want people to to to walk away from it. But Sean and I are going on tour soon.
And I hope that in those couple of weeks while we're touring the film,
doing our theatrical screenings, that I will actually learn something in all
our time sitting in the airport and everything. That is my goal this time around.

(34:30):
I have a little more time.
But yeah, for me, I don't think it's going to change who I am sitting in the
audience just going, wow, that was wild.
I have no idea what happened. And I'm OK with that because I think that is a
really important part of why magic works.
Yeah and and and links to
that i'm really interested again we'll start

(34:52):
with you john when when everybody talks about you know
that there's a lovely when we meet each magician
there's a really lovely sort of intro short sort
of biog about them and a lovely adorable
michael vincent as a little kid so cute we
me and helen both went oh you know but then
they talk about the kind of you know what is it about magic that

(35:15):
i think you know and i think a lot of magicians are a bit jaded
that you know they say things like you can't entertain people with just a deck
of cards which you know what we all know is nonsense yeah but we do get jaded
because to us it becomes the normal and we lose touch i think to that thing
and a lot of people talk about you know it the reason why most people love it
is because it connects them with with childhood i

(35:36):
think that's true but i think there's there's also i'm fascinated
with with the other parts to that my theories on it but i'd be interested as
someone who is a non-magician that now knows loads about magic but still sees
himself as a as a spectator what what's your experience because we lose touch
of it do you think it's that or do you think there's more to it job.

(36:00):
I definitely, you know, my taste over the years has definitely progressed towards
the small magic. I'm not really interested in the big spectacle stage stuff.
I love, you know, the first time I went to the Magic Castle a few years back
on my own, just that like every square inch, everywhere you turn,
there was someone doing something.
There's the bartender, this guy sitting at the table, and it's all just stuff

(36:21):
that they're pulling, you know, out of their pocket or it's the glass or whatever it is.
And to me i love yet
taking the kind of the common very everyday things one
of my favorite pieces of art ever i was a guy in new york who
was taking like plastic bags and he
kind of taped them and cut them together and tie them to
the subway grates and so you're just walking to work doing

(36:42):
your everyday normal commutes when you see a piece of trash
on the sidewalk beside you but all of a sudden the train
underneath passes by the hot air rises it inflates
the bag and it becomes this little puppy who's just kind of sitting there shaking
and wagging at you and then the train passes and that dog disappears
and i love the idea that now every day on
your commute you're going to look at every piece of trash

(37:03):
as something that has potential but maybe
that thing is also going to show aside and come to life and do something that
you didn't expect it to do and so that's what i love about the card magic and
the close-up magic and the use of very simple like common objects is that it
imbues all those things now with a sense of possibility and wonder that you

(37:24):
maybe didn't consider before.
And then if you can look at that very common thing now in the new light,
maybe that gives you kind of opens your eyes to doing the same thing with other
parts of our other parts of your life and things that you take for granted and
things that, you know, you think you know everything about and you've seen a
million times that you don't see anymore. And maybe you kind of look at it with fresh eyes again.
It's so important for us magicians to hear things like that because,

(37:46):
you know, we look at the minutiae and we go, that's not quite powerful enough,
that's not strong enough, it needs to be, you know, we need a bit more of that.
It needs to be a killer and it needs to blow people away.
But I think there's a beauty in those tricks that don't necessarily,
they may not be closers, but they take something.
And I loved, I think it's really important to understand that it's that kind
of repurposing of something and everyday objects.

(38:06):
And I think it can be an unrecognizable object.
There could be a curiosity, what's this box? you know dill's box or something
like that dean's box you know that thing of what's that gonna do you know that's
exciting as well and sean do you what's your kind of theory on on what it is
about this not for us but for the spectators does it go in line with with what other people are saying.
I kind of in your camp and it's funny you brought

(38:28):
up dean dill's box i just put that into hidden wonders i
do a show seven days a week in my venue yeah my
own little theater only seats 30 people now and it's
a choose your own adventure i've got a big old china
cabinet filled with odd curiosities not all
common items i start with a deck of cards but then
i allow the audience to pick things out of the cabinet on

(38:51):
every given night there's something different done and and i'm fascinated with
the things they pick like the egg beater and dean dill's box because they go
what's the box with the hole in it i think having something that look innocuous
not you know with all the old Chinese dragon symbols and things like that.
All those unbelievable stories of my trip to Kathmandu. I remember when I was

(39:14):
nine saying things like that because that's what everybody else did.
And it's like, they're like, look at the little nine-year-old telling us he's
been to Kathmandu. He doesn't know how to spell Kathmandu. It's like.
Right. Now, I think for me, I want my magic to be authentic.
I want it to be about me in some way.
I don't want it to be arrogantly about me. I want it to be about a story that

(39:36):
talks about my adventures and my life and magic so that people,
when they leave, feel like I drew back the curtain and let them see who I am
as just a human, an artist,
and then show them the technical skills that are necessary,
make them appreciate what I'm doing, and then remove those technical skills
so that the last part of the show just seems like magic.

(39:59):
And it works in that context because they start by going, oh my God,
look how amazing and dexterous he is.
And by the end, it's just me doing something that just shows no dexterity and is just magic.
And they just go, well, that's just not possible.
And I love when I see people with that sense of wonder.

(40:21):
We have a little guest book at Hidden Wonders, and I ask people to write things
in it. I said, it's like an Airbnb, write something nice in there.
And when I'm old, I'll be able to look back and remember when I was good.
They write the most wonderful things and the crazy things.
I mean, I've had, you know, I'm a man of science, and

(40:41):
I can't believe that now I'm questioning things and i'm like i
love that and i had a young girl keiko i think she was japanese she
sat in the back row clapped like this for the whole show when the
show was over she rushed to the book and signed it and all
she put was keiko and then capital letters above it holy shit right yeah uh
it's like there's a review right yeah i i i think that magic done with common

(41:04):
everyday objects can be really impactful our edcs as we're starting to call
it nowadays our everyday carries i love that,
yeah but I still love yeah it's weird I.
I grew up surrounded by magic. My father, I remember a very long time ago,
I saw two magicians, very famous magicians.
I won't say their names, but they were both on television at the time,

(41:26):
go to an event that I was invited to.
And I was like a fly on the wall, the back part of the room.
And the host said to the one, you know, we're thrilled that you're here.
And I'm wondering if you'd do something for us. And that guy said,
yeah, I didn't bring anything with me. I didn't prepare anything.
And they went, oh, okay, that's great. And I was like, oh, wow.
And the people around me were like, he has to prepare something?

(41:47):
I thought he was a magician. And I was like, ooh.
And it just sat. And then the other magician, very famous, said,
well, I'd be happy to show you something wondrous and amazing right here. And I was like, yay.
It's like there were these two different thought patterns.
One was, I won't do it because it's not professional, prepared, prepared and ready.
And the other was like, I just want to, I'm passionate about magic and want to share something.

(42:10):
And what he did was not great, but it was so well received from an audience
that was, you know, ready to see magic. And yeah.
And that, that sat in my head for, it still sits in my head.
My dad took me aside and said, did you learn the lesson there?
And I said, yeah, I always carry something with you. He said, no, no, no.
Always care about what you're doing. I was like, oh, that's cool.

(42:32):
One of my favorite moments with Sean was the first time that we met and we were
sitting in a restaurant and he was performing a little bit for the waitress
and the people sitting beside us.
And when those people left, he just took the straw out of his drink and just
disappeared up his nose as they were walking.
And we sat there for another 45 minutes, an hour talking. And it's not like
once they left, the straw reappeared from wherever, like for all intents and

(42:54):
purposes in our universe, in our reality.
Had straw gone up his nose and we just moved on with our conversation and it really enjoyed that.
It's so good and again if i could if i could just say
to people constantly again the jaded thing i hear a lot
of people that have been magicians for a long time and i've
i've seen it written about in quite a lot of books by

(43:16):
respected authors saying it's it's bad to have a deck of cards on
you it's it's it's tacky to kind of take cards
out of social events and perform magic and i'm thinking and
if you've forgotten why you started that
you know it and of course we can do that in
a way that that is quite arrogant and we can do the hundred tricks
and force it and you know there's a time and a place for everything saying

(43:37):
that i did perform at a funeral last year and it was wonderful but it
it was it is something that i
think is i've never seen anybody say have
you got a trick and me take a deck of cards and go on that's a bit tacky you've
got a deck of cards it's something thing that we
we have that that isn't like oh look look
what i can do and you can't do i think we get way past

(43:57):
that very very quickly that that kind of ego runs out you
know we realize it doesn't go anywhere but it's such
a waste i think not uh even for a couple of minutes just uh it's a win-win right
it's not just about i'm going to provide you with the experience but it's my
experience as well it's it's my experience of in a cynical way avoiding boring
small talk because i bore myself with it and and doing something that is a shared

(44:21):
moment that's something a bit special
and like you say sean it doesn't have to be great i think it it doesn't have to be.
You thought of something and i named it it can be something that has
a process but that process can be beautiful as well it's like deal
out the cards and if if you do it in a certain way it's a it's like you're all
having you're all in on this game so it's well sometimes the process is really
important because this is a shared experience if it's all just you think of

(44:45):
it and i tell you what it is it seems to be all about me that's the worst kind
of magic in my opinion now it's all about them if they can experience it.
I just recently discovered a magician, Anson Chen, and I brought him in to do
a lecture here in Vancouver.
And normally a lecture, I enjoy the theory part of it and the trick part.

(45:05):
It's like, whatever, that's great. I'll buy in support.
Anson did a routine with a crystal ball where the spectator actually read three people's minds.
And the magician on stage looked dumbfounded at the end when he went,
I did read them? Seriously?
All three of them. And I was like, oh, this is brilliant. And they exposed it.

(45:26):
And I bought a crystal ball the next day, I swear.
And it's in the cabinet of hidden wonders. And every night when I see,
I had it last night, this lady, it was her 60th birthday party.
She was very nervous about coming up. I said, don't worry.
I don't make fun of people. This is about you being elevated. It's your birthday.
This is going to be great for you. Come on up, hold this crystal ball and just

(45:48):
start pointing at some people and we'll read their minds.
And we started at the end of it. She didn't want to leave the stage.
She didn't want to give back the crystal ball.
She just stood there with this look of dumbfounded going, what, no, no, no, what?
Seriously, did I really? And all these people that I was going,
yes. She goes, well, I just guessed, she said. And I was like, this is so good.

(46:10):
I'm very thankful of Anson to give me that. Yeah, and it was a principle that
was really basic that it fooled me.
And when i saw it presented he didn't do
anything complicated there was no electronics it was it
was old school old school like a long time
ago school and uh and yeah i
changed it a little bit he would help them

(46:33):
like at the start and then let it go off i do the
opposite i let them go off and then help them at the end and it
made it a little bit stronger for them but yeah yeah
i so often see we sell a product i own a company murph
hummer magic yes so lovely yeah oh yeah yourself that's right hummer magic the

(46:53):
deck and the amount of magicians i hear saying oh it's an old thing i would
never do that you know it's been seen a thousand times what what deck is that
sean sorry what what what omni deck yeah the uh,
I make those, every one of them, thousands upon thousands, about 5,000 a year,
a glass purse, it's Lexan, bulletproof glass, little Omnideck.

(47:13):
I can't believe I don't have one directly in front of me. John,
you know the Omnideck, right?
Yeah, John's seen the Omnideck a few times.
But people, they'll say, oh, everybody's seen it. And I'm like, no, they haven't.
Every night at Hidden Wonders, I ask the same question. I ask,
how many of you people are going to be experiencing magic live in

(47:34):
an environment like this and 90 of the people
every night raise their hand that they've never seen
most of them never seen a live magician ever and it's fascinating to me that
when i read all these forums and they're and they see some of the great reactions
we got on the films in the film of me just john wanted me to do street magic

(47:56):
and i tried to explain i'm not a street magician and I can't handle rejection.
People are just going to walk right on by or say, no, thank you.
We were at Buckingham Palace, first day of filming walk-around stuff.
And they're there to see Buckingham Palace. Nobody's there to see magic guys
standing on a street corner.
And the first group stopped, and oh, my God, they huddled around me.

(48:18):
There had to be like 11 or 12 of them. Oh, my God.
And every person we met in England spoke Spanish, French, German,
Italian, Hindi. Nobody spoke English.
In the group. And I was like, I was dodging through trying to,
and then we ended up with a person who didn't speak at all. He was deaf.
And he's like, it's like this. It's a hosk. Yeah, that guy. Yeah. Then did the...

(48:39):
That guy. Wasn't it a hosk? Definitely the best moments of the film was him
being prepared. He had the suit tattooed on his forearm.
And just before that, like we, two of the guys that Sean performed,
just before that, they actually recognized him on the street.
They also had their decks of cards.
And then right after that, the other guy pulls his deck out of his mouth and
that was a really wonderful moment one of the things that you can't plan for,

(49:02):
yeah absolutely and and john with your with your experience of of filming all
that street stuff was that was that all i mean it looked i can imagine some
of it being so challenging not just the street magic but everything and you're
going out you've got a certain amount of time,
you know it's not like we can just sort of you know sort of faff about with

(49:22):
a magic trick for years but you've you've got to do that was was there any challenges
with that was there any kind
of disasters or I don't want to sort of dwell on the negative stuff,
but I've heard lots of stories about filmmakers just having really hard,
hard experiences with losing footage and not getting a shot.
We had challenges, but our team that traveled together, so it was myself,

(49:43):
Sean, our producer, Anna, our DP.
Colin, and sound recordist, Alex Murray, I think, kind of bonded in the couple
of weeks of craziness that this project involved.
And so when there were challenges, it was something that we all kind of faced together.
Probably the biggest obstacle that we faced was after finishing shooting with

(50:04):
Juan in Madrid, by the time they got back from the restaurant,
It was probably like 2 a.m. or something.
Our flight from Madrid back to France so we could drive then to Amboise for
our final day of shooting at the castle was maybe like 5.30.
And we got to the airport and they're like, sorry, there's no flight.
The strikes were happening in France and there were just no flights into France at all.

(50:27):
And we don't have the ability. Everything is very tightly booked.
We don't have the ability to kind of push our schedule and just wait in Madrid another day.
So we rented a van and we drove
13 hours and i don't know
well over a thousand kilometers to to get to our final
stop we all took turns driving sean and i spent
a lot of time in the front seat telling stories while other people slept in

(50:50):
the back but yeah that didn't really ruin the energy and the vibe and the kind
of camaraderie and everyone was was committed to making this thing the best
thing that we could and we hired a lot of great people along the way so there were challenges,
but honestly, compared to the previous feature, this was a cakewalk.
Great over things like the translator, our brilliant translator in the one location,

(51:14):
who described the funeral as delicious.
Succulent. Succulent. That was the word. Pardon me. Succulent. Right.
Yeah. We needed translators for many of our guests that spoke French.
And although I I can understand some friends, the audience is going to,
we want to make sure the questions we're answering correctly.

(51:36):
So we said, you know, they will answer
the question. And then if you could translate for us what they said,
This person thought that they would just translate during. And so as they were
talking, they were translating. We're like, no, no, stop.
Well, I need to translate. So it's like, no, just write some notes.
No, no, no, no. It's easier if I just talk at the same time.
We're like, because that'll make a great film.

(51:56):
I had a translator in China, Peter, and he told me a great story.
He translated for Jimmy Carter once in China.
And he said, don't worry, I'll make you sound funny no matter what. And I'm like, really?
He says, relax. and I said how can you
be assured of that he said oh I I traveled with President Carter
who told the same joke every day and I got used to it

(52:17):
and understood and I said really said on the last day it was
huge laughs and President Carter said what did
you say this time and I said well this time I said President Carter told
the joke you should all laugh loud now perfect that's
what we need that's that's exactly what we need to feel better yeah so we we
talked about that thing of that experience we have of being able to show someone

(52:40):
a trick and experience their responses john it's a bit different for you you
have to work for five years before you get that response.
You know and and with the amazing people involved
in this project you know the things for me
that elevate it from this could have been dull.
And i'm not i'm not that's not disparaging i think any documentary you

(53:02):
know the great thing about documentary good documentaries it doesn't
matter what it's about you'll enjoy it if it's well made you know with
senna and with with things like that no interest
in motor racing phenomenal documentary and i
think this is the same and and for me it's the it's the
the things like the animations you know when when
hans talking about amazing that the most skilled sleight

(53:23):
of hand artist in the world picks the rising card as he's
kind of thought no which was
great you know but all of those things so
you've got people working on that that the soundtrack like all
the best soundtracks in the world you don't you don't
almost don't notice it until you do and it just just moves the

(53:43):
whole thing along and without it would be just a totally different thing
to the other producers that are involved to the
other magicians so is there what
does that feel like when you're having those first screenings with
all those people involved i mean for me there would be intense
pressure but then it may may be
different when you're in it what's it like for you john uh the test screenings

(54:05):
were kind of challenging i've done them before and the challenge
is you know you show the film you give people a questionnaire to kind of kind
of guide what information you need and then you have a conversation and the
challenge is to not rebut people and when they say you know i didn't understand
this part is the challenge is not to go okay but this is what you didn't understand man, the problem.

(54:27):
The challenge is to go, okay, this part doesn't make sense.
What can we do to fix that?
So that, to me, is the more challenging screening. I think by the time that
we had our world premiere at Hot Docs in Toronto, which is a big documentary
festival a few months ago.
By that time, I didn't really feel a lot of pressure. Obviously,
you know, you want people to show up and you want to be well attended.

(54:47):
You want people to like it.
But at that point, you know, it's done, right? There is nothing else you can do.
You're putting out in the world and you just kind of cross your fingers and
hope that it's going to land with people. So I think it's the challenge of the
screenings where you're still in process and you have to figure out also what advice do you take?
Because you'll have 35 people that will watch the film and you can get 35 different

(55:09):
opinions what to do with this one situation and how do you work to the middle.
So, you know, discount the people who say that was awesome. Don't change a thing.
People that say that was terrible. It made no sense. I didn't like it.
And then kind of work to the people in the middle who are hopefully going to
be the mainstream audience that you're going to land for the film.
And so I think those screenings are more challenging because you have to kind

(55:32):
of, there's more interpretation to be done.
Once the film's actually done, then it's just sort of, you know,
you cross your fingers and you hope you've done a good job.
Yeah, there's so much in there. I think for, again, for people listening or watching this,
the the feedback thing of someone feeds back in
a negative way or a constructive way the temptation is always

(55:53):
and we all do it i do it i go yeah but oh but but
i think it's to to to honor that and go that's how we're going to respond internally
yeah but take it on board or not but i think it's it's so powerful but i've
i would really struggle with that 99 people could say it's great one person
and i'll be changing things so i think it's but but then i don't in magic because
you learn to trust your own process, I suppose.

(56:16):
That's what I'm having, yeah, exactly. Having my editor with me and so having
that sort of balancing thing going, okay, so let's talk about that feedback that we got.
Do we think that's something that we need to work with? And how do we best address those issues?
And sometimes I also took a couple of kicks at the can. So we try and solve
something one way and that wasn't the right way to do it.

(56:36):
So you go back to the starting point and undo, undo, undo, and then you try a different solution.
What's next then you've you've got you've just done a film there
must be a kind of grieving process because it's it must be
such an intense thing so you've got the tour and
is that where is that and where can people support it i know it's kickstarter
at the beginning and i made that little video way back but where can people

(56:59):
support this which i highly suggest magicians and non magicians do well sean
and i are hitting the road again it's time without a camera crew but starting
on August 17th. We're doing a couple of nights in San Francisco.
Then we're going to LA, coming here, having a screening in Vancouver.
We go to Toronto, then New York, then Dallas, where we'll be also at the FISM,

(57:21):
S-A-M-T-A-O-S mega convention competition. We'll do a couple of.
Public screenings there as well. And then Final Stop is going to be in Chicago.
But we also have multiple other cities across North America where the film's
playing in magic theaters and indie cinemas.
We're at the Magic Circle on August 27th. Right.
We're at the IBM British Ring Convention. I think that's September 12th.

(57:47):
And then if you're not anywhere around any of those places, then you'll be able
to buy and rent it at home starting September 10th.
Apple amazon google all the big uh
all big platforms great that's great and have
you got any other more film projects coming up john i've
got some ideas sean and i have an idea for a series that we're maybe going to
try and get off the ground as well this is still even though the actual making

(58:10):
of the film finished you know back in february this has still been a full-time
job for me for the last few months getting all this marketing and this tour together so it won't be
until like the middle of september where the film is available in
vod that i think i really do get a chance to kind
of take a breath and step back from it a little bit yeah yeah so let's just

(58:30):
start like september 11th on the new project that you're saying does that give
you like 12 hours in hours well rested let's do it we were already picking a
new idea before the film was out okay it's just.
Sean, so you've got your venue, you've got obviously performing.
Do you still compete and things like that? Or is that, do you go back?

(58:54):
You haven't been tempted to kind of get back onto it?
The only reason I competed was it was a way to market myself.
Sure. I never, even as a judge, I think that magic is hard to judge and competitors hard.
I've been helping a lot of young magicians right now and newer magicians,
not all young, but newer magicians. and it annoys me when I see them go out

(59:17):
and do amazing performances and get judged poorly because the judge isn't qualified.
Yeah, I think competitions are a really important part of our community because
it allows a showcase for them and I encourage young magicians to compete because
I wouldn't be where I am if I hadn't done all the competitions.
I was working on a cruise ship and I'd done Pacific Coast Association magicians,

(59:41):
the Society of American Magicians and won ultimately awards at IBM.
And I thought, that was great. All that worked to get me onto ships and working and consistently.
And then while on the ship, I discovered FISM and thought, I should go just see what that's about.
And when I took a second prize, I came back and Norwegian Cruise Lines gave
me a bonus and started advertising that, you know, silver medal in the world championship.

(01:00:05):
Hey, got any interest in sending me in another three years to Stockholm,
Sweden? They're like, yeah, do you want to?
Heck yes. And every time I made the newspapers and every time I won an award,
I got more money and more leverage.
And it was unheard of for like a performer to be able to bring their family
on a cruise ship. I brought my daughter.
We raised my daughter on a cruise ship because these awards,

(01:00:28):
they allowed me to do things that nobody else was doing.
And it opened doors for other magicians who subsequently brought families out
and had real lives instead of just being away from their people.
Yeah. Ultimately, after the Grand Prix at FISM, I didn't do it to prove anything.
My daughter put it best. It was about a week after we'd done China.

(01:00:51):
I was in Japan doing a show and they asked us if we'd do a television interview.
And the lady said to my daughter, who at the time was eight,
they said, so Hannah, how does it feel having a father who's the world champion
of magic she said oh that was last week yeah great nothing like catch the ground yeah,
yeah they said to me but why do you

(01:01:13):
still promote it if it was like 2009 i said because
i've seen every person that owns an academy and award still promoting
it and some of them for the 60s i mean i came second i came second in the magic
circle close-up magician of the year like in 2006 i still now and then squeeze
that one why not it's it's a talking point and it helps to move something forward.

(01:01:37):
And if it gives you a gig, that's the best thing. I'm here to perform. I won.
I, all my life, all I wanted to do was make a living doing magic.
I wanted to be able to do it and find an audience.
And, and now the Fool Us trophies were great. I didn't think of Fool Us as a contest. No, no. Yeah.
I turned it down right up until a week before filming and finally agreed to

(01:01:59):
it when I discovered Johnny Thompson was involved.
I was the first performer on the very first day of the first season.
They'd done the pilot, but Graham Jolly and John Archer and all those guys.
And then I guess it sat for like a year. And then when they filmed the first
one, I had no idea about the concept or anything.
And there weren't even trophies back then. So it wasn't a contest.

(01:02:21):
It was a TV show and an opportunity to showcase what I do.
And then when they got trophies, it was like, hey, I got to go back and do this.
One more crack at it.
You can put it in your very tidy workshop i'm
glad it's not just me yeah my workshop is
not tight but that the two i moved all i

(01:02:41):
never had the trophies out anything out they all just sat
in boxes places and when i got hidden wonders i had
a big empty area up in the top like a lighting
cabinet top above and so i dragged
them all out of the attics and everything and opened up the old
cases and and then put them all up there and and they look nice and it gives
me a good joke in the show i have a routine where people don't applaud and they

(01:03:04):
go and say because they're just dumbfounded at that moment i say it's okay i
don't need your pity i can go out there and shine all those trophies yeah yeah
and so you're not going to go for a third time on foolers then.
I went for a third, and most people missed the episode, which I love,
because I didn't fool them.
Although they guessed wrong, but I didn't fool them. I know I didn't fool them,
at least in my heart, I feel.

(01:03:24):
It doesn't matter. I didn't go there. I went there for the third time because
they needed a multiple fooler.
It was the only three people left because they had Helen, they had Andre,
they had Paul Gertner, and they needed one more.
Vinnie Grosso was working on a cruise ship. Shin Lim said no.
That left me at the time. That was all the multiple winners.

(01:03:44):
So I came up with a routine 14 days before filming, even on the day of filming,
you can see me hesitated a moment in the actual recording because I was going
back to the routine I was doing the day before because I changed it again that morning.
Yeah. So it was not a, but it was a callback to all the magic I did on the first two episodes.
But the challenge was not to use any of the same techniques or any of the methods

(01:04:09):
and to create something that combined the two of them.
And their guess was, well, they were very complimentary. mentor they said we
really appreciate that you know you came back and did something that was basically
the same techniques and the same methods and you know
and i was like yeah no i didn't didn't
use interesting yeah he did fall but he just didn't officially fall them yeah
i think that yeah i think that it doesn't really matter if you're going on that

(01:04:33):
win a trophy then you're going for the wrong reason it's the exposure the amount
of people that come to hidden wonders directly as a result of Fool Us is astonishing.
I had a gentleman last night, he brought 11 people, no, 10 people in him.
So there were 11 of them and they were from Oklahoma and they'd just come off
of a cruise ship in Alaska and they were all women and him.

(01:04:55):
And the women came in not overly impressed.
My team even said, they don't
look like they're are happy to be here i was like yay but the
guy was like turns out john's a member of the order of merlin excelsior from
oklahoma he meant all the women on this cruise to alaska he said i went to alaska
and now you're coming to see the magic show and at the end they all left so

(01:05:18):
joyous oh this is the best thing ever oh it was all the it was the highlight
of our trip and i was like yay.
And and before we finish i'll come back to you in
a sec john but just if people your audience
want to find you sean at the venue if they're in the
area where is it how can they find out more about it hidden wonders.ca easy

(01:05:38):
to find but they should book well in advance we sell it about five to six weeks
in advance great good to hear and john is it uh what's the the url of the the
lost in the shuffle website.
It is lostintheshuffle.film. You'll find our trailer there.
You'll find a list of all the live dates that we're doing and our growing list of cool merch.

(01:06:00):
I have to update that and add some of our new stuff.
But once you've seen the film, you want to bring it home, we will give you that opportunity.
And we have decks of playing cards. Don't forget that. We have awesome limited
edition, each one sealed with a number on it of decks of cards,
Lost in the Shuffle, probably the best deck of playing cards you'll ever hold
in your hand for quality and texture.

(01:06:21):
If you're a big fan of the old stud playing cards, this card stock finish is unbelievable.
You can pharaoh them face up or face down. They are more than traditional cut
because traditional cut you can only do in one direction and the normal cut.
This you can do in both directions.
You'll look like an expert pharaohing. Great, and we could just buy them on the site.

(01:06:43):
Yep, and they're the ones that Sean uses in the film as well.
Yeah, they're in the movie. It's really cool. and it's a very cool movie I genuinely
loved it I'm not just it would have been really awkward if I hadn't I'm glad I did,
there's so much to love like I said the music the animation everything but I
don't want to give it too much I want people to go and see it so I will put
all the links below and top and tail this please make the effort to see it everybody

(01:07:05):
please share it the amount of work that's gone into it as we've just heard is
phenomenal and it's a rare thing,
to be able to give this to magicians but non-magicians as well I'm going to
pretend to say goodbye to you.
Sean and John, but thank you so much for spending time with us.
And I really appreciate it. Thanks for sharing a little later.

(01:07:26):
Thanks for the opportunity. It was great. Thank you.
So thank you again to John and Sean for that interview.
As I said, lost in the shuffle dot film. If you go on there,
I've got it in front of me now and click on live dates.
You'll see all of the info about upcoming dates as it suggests,
but you'll also find information on the cards that

(01:07:48):
sean was talking about and all the other merch and the history
of it which is quite interesting would be the kickstarter and all that
so thanks very much sean and john thank you for listening to
that i do have another podcast coming up very
soon the editing is getting quicker so one
day someone else will be doing the editing that'd be nice wouldn't
it imagine that and i'll be able to do lots more so that is

(01:08:10):
in the pipeline too please check out on my magic.co as
i mentioned before i won't go on about it but it is very very good
and follow me on tiktok on
the views are blowing up on tiktok which is which is hilarious for a 51 year
old man finally my children think i'm cool ish so have a look at that that's

(01:08:31):
steve falkner s-t-e falkner and instagram steve falkner where i'm posting a
lot more content thanks very
much and of course follow and subscribe to
this podcast if you're just listening to it as a one-off and comment please
do comment and review i know it's one of those things people go oh yeah i'll
get around to it one day it really makes all the difference it you know helps

(01:08:54):
the algorithm helps people find it and do share it verbally with people and
online as well so thanks very much have a great one take care.